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請教部長會不會覺得這個規定來得太晚了還是來得剛剛好需要開發的都已經開發完了需要開發的都開發完了我們才規定要還平還是這個規定來得剛剛好"},{"start":261.26,"end":282.32,"text":"包委員當時是有當時的做法因為我接任才一年當時當然有當時的做法嘛所以我希望你用環境部部長的高度告訴全體國人啊當初這是一個正確的政策決定嗎是嗎所以我修正了啊沒有錯嘛我沒有否定你修正嘛現在我在問的是這個規定會不會來得太晚"},{"start":283.261,"end":310.124,"text":"會不會來得太晚我做我該做的事情你做你該做的事情然後前面的錯誤的政策由前面的人必須要承擔責任對不對我沒有要你承擔責任啊你做你該做的事嘛前面沒有做到的前面的人要承擔責任對不對包委員我今天我的結語就是開發各種的再生能源要以環境保護為優先這個是我們的職責好 非常好下一頁"},{"start":311.471,"end":338.246,"text":"水面型的光電廠現在要不要實施環評這個案例你說屏東那個案例他是屬於沒有沒有我現在是抽象的講水面型的光電廠依照現行規定要不要環評目前還不用但是你覺得不用合理嗎你覺得不用合理嗎這辦法不是你們公布的嗎你說你作為部長你做你該做的事嗎那我現在問題很具體啊水面型的光電廠要不要環評是不是部長該做的事"},{"start":340.351,"end":354.904,"text":"這個如果說它是一個濕地它會影響到環境不用講濕地啦濕地本來就納在裡面嘛我現在在問的是水面型的光電廠依照現行的規定要不要環評需要嗎需不需要目前不需要你覺得這個決定是對的嗎"},{"start":358.719,"end":379.284,"text":"這個我們會納入考慮納入考慮要考慮多久我們報告裡面我要納入環評總體檢年底會完成所以你說水面型的光電你要納入考慮要考慮多久等到該設的都設完了以後再來考慮是嗎報告委員不會的不會嗎不會的因為過去你環評的時候全部都搞完了嘛只是環評的零件頒布的辦法以後來申請的還是零件"},{"start":386.889,"end":398.192,"text":"我看了就很有意思啊為什麼頒布辦法以後來申請的是零件因為要處理的都處理完了嘛都處理完了啦處理完了以後才說要還平來經濟部當初喔有關於張編工業區聯合再生搞這個爛事我從去年就開始執行當初怎麼拿到這個案子的承諾要設4.89公頃的生態熱區"},{"start":415.803,"end":441.322,"text":"結果呢 所有承諾的事項 全部都違反不可以轉賣套利 也轉賣套利了然後承諾要設生態熱區 現在有設嗎來請教經濟部 有設嗎跟委員說明 若是任何的案場它違反籌設許可 甚至電力值沒有 現在我只問你當初他承諾要設4.89的生態熱區有設嗎"},{"start":445.613,"end":464.062,"text":"這個是不是容我回去查一下不過我直接跟你講他沒有射你知不知道他為什麼沒有射你知不知道他為什麼沒有射他承諾要射喔後來沒有射喔你知不知道他為什麼沒有射委員我目前手中沒有知道你也不知道嘛我也直接跟你講答案你們經濟不准他不用射的從頭騙到尾從頭騙到尾"},{"start":471.122,"end":499.095,"text":"當初違法套利的時候出來幫他背書出來幫他護航的現在卸任了啦去當獨董啊賺大錢了叫王美花這件事情國發會後來都承認了我們一件事情一件事情來啦今天我要問你的只有生態熱區你兩件事情你都不知道沒關係我在國會負責任的跟你報告有沒有設沒有設為什麼可以不設經濟不準的好市長回去"},{"start":499.975,"end":527.447,"text":"回去請經濟部整理資料當初為什麼可以准這件事情兩個禮拜書面回覆給我可以嗎好謝謝下一頁然後呢高雄的事情等到出事了等到出事了經濟部火速撤帳要業者不要僥倖很好再下一頁那實際上面你們廢紙部分的司空局舍來我問一下"},{"start":529.158,"end":540.984,"text":"目前為止租給他的地收回來沒有現在還沒有因為我們要求他必須要恢復原狀然後我先問一下啦他這個土地使用沒有違反法令嗎"},{"start":542.193,"end":564.292,"text":"他有依照 如果沒有違法法律的話怎麼會被遵照 審議規定跟水路保持企劃來申請他目前我們 他有沒有被裁罰 他有沒有被裁罰我們也有罰他 政府也有罰他 你為什麼罰他因為他違法嘛 這還不簡單 他沒有違法你要怎麼罰他"},{"start":565.863,"end":577.437,"text":"我現在問題來啦他違法啦你罰他我OK我肯定雖然是亡羊補牢該做的事還是要做但我現在問題來啦現在是要放水嗎"},{"start":579.874,"end":603.203,"text":"經濟部推動綠能從來沒有這個從來沒有放水沒有這個心態沒有這個想法是嗎絕對是依法依規所以現在經濟部能源署那個被起訴的模範公務員很無辜就對了是嗎現在還在細數法院當然嘛所以我就問你們標準是什麼嘛在下一頁來看一下租約陳租源使用土地違反法令要不要終止租約"},{"start":604.531,"end":631.561,"text":"他現在還在依違反法令然後主管機關要求他是 來來來 你把租約看清楚啊上面有說我還要給他機會改正不改正我才可以終止租約嗎租約是這樣寫的嗎租約寫說陳租倫使用土地違反法令就要終止租約收回土地了還是打算什麼樣還是打算跟張斌工業區的案子一樣決定要放水放到底"},{"start":632.594,"end":643.438,"text":"上面有說要他命改正預期不改正才可以終止租約嗎各位說明啊這個slide第18點啊先看11點好不好請你看一下11點請你看一下11點好不好本契約"},{"start":648.26,"end":677.148,"text":"出租的土地有下列情況出租人可以隨時終止租約收回土地寫的還不夠清楚嗎18點的特約事項裡面瓜福二是如今通知改善會改善時出租人得終止租約對啊所以你變成是你認為你在簽契約的時候18點排除11點你的契約解釋是這樣嗎誰告訴你的經濟部的律師告訴你的嗎這是台水公司簽訂的契約一樣嗎台水公司不是你們督導的嗎沒有錯"},{"start":678.191,"end":700.229,"text":"回去跟台水公司講這是國家的資產這是國家的資產這樣胡搞瞎搞地還不收回來跟當初在放水臟病工業區的時候如出一徹一模一樣出了這麼嚴重的事了大內宣很會做很有魄力罰款"},{"start":701.328,"end":729.617,"text":"然後呢首先跟委員說明啊經濟部包括國營事業在處理相關的規定啊全部都合法合規真的嗎沒有關係啦我下一次有時間的時候張斌工業區經濟部怎麼從頭放水到最後連國發會都看不下去了直接跳出來打臉經濟部啊當初早就應該回收啦這不是我說的這國發會說的再往下看"},{"start":732.014,"end":756.505,"text":"2016年行政院太陽光電兩年期推動計畫規劃志宏池設置太陽光電再往下2017年嘉義縣府招標興溫志宏池光電案2018年給大家都很熟的雲豹能源的子公司得標這個是2018年喔給大家都很熟的雲豹能源得標再往下"},{"start":757.999,"end":761.746,"text":"這個就是今年七月以後造成的狀況清理完了沒有清理完了沒有"},{"start":766.291,"end":788.057,"text":"目前99%都清理完了然後接下來打算要怎麼辦繼續讓他再補新的上去嗎不是 接下來他必須要相關的廢棄物他必須要依規定來處理當然 這個都不用講他當然也是要復原所以復原就是再補新的供電板上去嗎因為他只要符合原來電風法相關的規定我們還是要依法來處理"},{"start":788.959,"end":814.889,"text":"OK 好 沒有關係啊 我們把話講清楚就好了啦我一直覺得很多媒體很奇怪啊 嘉義智洪池這一次造成這麼大問題的就雲爆啊沒有媒體敢報欸讓我覺得非常的驚訝來 再往下我們現在來看啦 屏東光電福台全毀然後呢 經濟部說啊 沒有沒有 那個光電板早就移除了那大家會有這個質疑其實也不意外"},{"start":815.854,"end":828.481,"text":"那公司的負責人自己對外面講的但沒有關係這不是我現在要問的重點你們這個抗風浪測試啊依照你們給他的抗風浪測試啊這個業者的抗風浪測試要到第幾級風你給他錢嘛叫他做實驗嘛那依照我們相關跟他給他補助相關的規範他做這個實驗要可以抗幾級風知道嗎"},{"start":843.127,"end":865.12,"text":"他基本上他希望是 希望喔可以用希望的喔 沒有要求喔沒有 這個基本上是一個試驗計畫啦 是他針對我們台灣的這個海域啊是 沒有錯啦 這個我知道 這個我都講過了嘛我講過的東西不用複述啦針對問題回答就好了有沒有要求他要可以抗擊疾風有還是沒有"},{"start":869.812,"end":876.198,"text":"這個計畫希望說在這個我們的海域裡面啦可以長期的維持在這個地方是穩定的這個不知道"},{"start":882.887,"end":902.252,"text":"那個我們是要求他必須在這個地方測試經過一年的耐風也就是說一年我們台灣都有颱風那我們是要求他經過一年完成測試我們才會做驗收所以我們是用他能夠你覺得現在還有可能驗收嗎來我接下來往下看我為什麼問你這個問題下一頁2023年杜蘇熱颱風來襲的時候那個時候大內宣很會做"},{"start":911.001,"end":929.812,"text":"大內宣很會做 我們設計浪高可以抗到14米有嗎 有嗎 再往下一頁他自己怎麼宣傳的他宣傳說 這也是我們量身打造的太陽能浮潭金石鎮可以抗17級風可以抗17級風 今天會變成這樣的海洋浩劫"},{"start":937.104,"end":958.66,"text":"自吹自擂業者要自吹自擂也不只廣告業者要負責現在我關心的是這個錢到底怎麼給的再下一頁再下一頁再下一頁再下一頁好來我們2023年經濟部門原署給他補助嘛是吧什麼時候給的他這個計畫是112年到115年"},{"start":963.541,"end":971.345,"text":"對 什麼時候給的 幾月幾號沒有關係啊 什麼時候審議通過的112年的7月7月幾號目前他的計畫是從7月1號開始你們什麼時候開審議會的審議會中間他有三次審議會 第一次是從最後什麼時候通過就好了啦"},{"start":988.837,"end":1002.348,"text":"我上面都幫你列出來答案都幫你寫出來了7月28號經濟部門委員署審議通過補出1.35億元我講的對不對是吧沒有錯吧這是你們公文書上面記載的嘛那奇怪囉7月28號才審議通過7月28號審議通過追溯到7月1號就開始囉先設建再畫吧那這是廠商的資料啊"},{"start":1018.783,"end":1037.475,"text":"所以呢7月1號就要開始了7月1號開始7月28號審議通過你會覺得很奇怪我還可以追溯再給你錢喔在下一頁來看一下喔從他提申請到核准三個月"},{"start":1039.031,"end":1048.577,"text":"三個月 開一次會 7月28號那一次會7月28號那一次會 結果廠商申請的時間是從7月1號開始我看了這個貓膩很深啊先設建再劃靶光速審查1.35億就這樣丟出去了反正納稅人的錢不是錢啊欽差部 黑白部"},{"start":1066.045,"end":1074.378,"text":"7月1號要開始的計畫7月28號審議通過市長你不會覺得很奇怪還是這個在公家機關在經濟部很正常常常都這樣幹是這樣嗎"},{"start":1077.85,"end":1097.498,"text":"有一些時候因為我們在審查的時候有正式的審查那正式的審查之前還有會前會的審查那有些時候廠商依照會前的時候的審查他認為說這個部分是對他有利的他自己就披露了這個部分我老實跟你講啦五月的時候提申請書五月的時候提申請書下一頁"},{"start":1101.36,"end":1112.671,"text":"看一下左手邊5月的時候提申請出他計畫期間寫什麼時候7月1號到114年12月31號廠商就直接這樣子寫啦那你們什麼時候開貨審議通過的112年7月28號我時序我完全沒有講錯那現在問題來了這問題來了"},{"start":1128.629,"end":1134.734,"text":"他期間開始的時候你們都還沒開始審議到7月底審議通過 追溯到7月1號開始我看到的叫做先射箭再劃靶我看的叫先射箭再劃靶貼了1.35億下去結果搞成今天這個樣子 海洋浩劫東西還飄到澎湖那邊去接下來大家等著看"},{"start":1154.008,"end":1181.725,"text":"等著看經濟部怎麼收拾這個爛攤子啊當初這個計畫怎麼過的我調資料你們說這個要廠商同意才可以提供市長廠商有同意嗎這個我們在10天裡面他必須要給我們回覆10天之內 我期待啊這個廠商不是很會做廣告我抗17級風啊去年颱風來都沒事啊大內宣很會做啊"},{"start":1183.697,"end":1204.51,"text":"非常會做啊因為我八股很強啊我八股非常的強啊在這邊跟委員再重申我們在綠能的發展已經建立了廉政平台經濟部從來不會想要包補所以嘛這個就是按照你說的嘛就是按照你們這個樣子經濟部能源署光電組的組長才會被起訴嘛"},{"start":1208.379,"end":1234.256,"text":"我有說錯嗎這個部分 起訴他細數在法院的這個審理中那我們認為他過去的一個表現非常的好他是一個非常認真的官員你如果要繼續跟我爭這個 那我就問你一個最直接的問題當初台陽 台南的立昂他是符合小二甲哪一個例外我上次問部長部長答不出來 他也不知道是哪一個例外"},{"start":1236.172,"end":1258.861,"text":"能有數的要上來救援也答不出來因為不符合任何例外這個我沒有在跟你討論個案他有沒有故意的問題喔我光請教一個最簡單的法規適用的問題當初就已經有小二甲的禁令了請問是符合哪一款的例外整個經濟部上上下下沒有一個人答得出來然後你今天敢站在這邊講都按照法規在進行"},{"start":1267.912,"end":1280.016,"text":"人民聽得下去喔 人民聽得下去喔這種劣質的廠商 把納稅人的錢當什麼把納稅人的錢當批款機喔十三個案子已經釐清了 這個我們就撤銷了奇怪喔 阿你不是說都依法 阿如果都依法幹嘛還要撤銷"},{"start":1291.718,"end":1307.092,"text":"不是 依法釐清了他是不是違反了啊當然就是違法才撤銷嘛那還有42個案子的話他還在所以你的意思是說我們因為有42個案子OK所以當初13個違法過的沒有關係是這樣嗎42個案子他必須要主管機關的這個審認啊這個不是在我們的權責裡面我這樣講好了啦接下來光電板"},{"start":1320.249,"end":1345.637,"text":"對於環境所會造成的衝擊大家非常的關心大家非常的關心經濟部也好環境部也好攜手努力啦過去犯的錯誤就已經造成這樣的結果那要不然要怎麼辦現在就只有認真的追究責任更重要的事情是什麼希望以後這樣的事情不要再發生好 謝謝謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1092,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時26分）謝謝主席。麻煩請環境部部長及經濟部次長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。這一次因為颱風的關係光電板到處散落，對於環境所造成的衝擊，在各個部會今天的報告當中都有提出來，當然環境部部長好像認為對環境沒有什麼影響，但海委會的書面報告意見跟你不太一樣，但我覺得這是一個痛定思痛、好好檢討，到底事情出了什麼問題？我們一步一步往下來看，2020年，屏東枋寮103公頃山坡地變更成光電場，這個有經過環評嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那時候沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，OK。2021年，屏東51公頃國家公園山坡地變更成光電場，有經過環評嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是今年1月的時候有修改環評的法令，過去是只有針對濕地，如果是現在，這個情況都要環評。"],["黃委員國昌：你說得很好，這個就是我的重點，我們現在去檢討過去的政策，當初這些地方免環評，你覺得是正確的決定嗎？山坡地挖成那個樣子不用環評、國家公園挖成那個樣子不用環評。2022年，這次引發軒然大波的高雄大樹區51公頃山坡地變更成光電場一樣沒有環評，為什麼大規模山坡地改成光電場通通都不用環評？理由很簡單，因為我們的政府說免環評，免環評造成的結果是什麼？濫墾山林、沒有落實水土保持，搞成今天這個樣子。","之前就不斷的有環評委員說這些都應該要納入環評，結果2016年開始搞，搞到2024年，光電環評0件、zero，通通都不用環評，愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹，我們的政府大開後門通通都不用環評，環評委員四度提出光電開發案要納環評，沒有下文。在會議當中提出來，我看到會議紀錄裡面寫的是主席發言說：謝謝各位委員提供寶貴的建議。然後呢？然後就沒有然後了！等到今年才說要納環評。請教部長，會不會覺得這個規定來得太晚了？還是來得剛剛好？需要開發的都已經開發完了，我們才規定要環評，還是這個規定來得剛剛好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當時是有當時的作法，因我接任才一年……"],["黃委員國昌：當然當時有當時的作法嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：其實當時也有水土保持報告……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我希望你用環境部部長的高度告訴全體國人啊！當初這是一個正確的政策決定，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們有修正了，我們1月的時候修正這個啊！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛！我沒有否定你修正，現在我在問的是這個規定會不會來得太晚？會不會來得太晚？"],["彭部長啓明：我做我該做的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：你做你該做的事情，前面錯誤的政策由前面的人必須要承擔責任，對不對？我沒有要你承擔責任啊！你做你該做的事，前面沒有做到的前面的人要承擔責任，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我今天專案報告的結語就是開發各種的再生能源要以環境保護為優先，這個是我們的職責跟態度。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好。水面型的光電場現在要不要實施環評？"],["彭部長啓明：針對這個案例，你說屏東那個案例是屬於……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有。我現在是抽象的講，依照現行規定，水面型的光電場要不要環評？"],["彭部長啓明：目前還不用，但是我們還是可以納入考慮……"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得不用合理嗎？這辦法不是你們公布的嗎？你說你作為部長，你做你該做的事嘛！我現在問題很具體啊！水面型的光電場要不要環評？是不是部長該做的事？"],["彭部長啓明：如果它是一個濕地，會影響到環境，當然就要環評。"],["黃委員國昌：不用講濕地啦！濕地本來就納在裡面，我現在在問的是水面型的光電場，依照現行的規定要不要環評？需要嗎？需不需要？"],["彭部長啓明：目前不需要。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這個決定是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會納入考慮，包括我們報告裡面……"],["黃委員國昌：要納入考慮，要考慮多久？"],["彭部長啓明：我們報告裡面有說要納入環評總體檢，我們年底會完成。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你說水面型的光電場納入考慮，要考慮多久？等到該設的都設完了以後再來考慮，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不會的。"],["黃委員國昌：不會嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：不會的。我們現在在做環評總體檢……"],["黃委員國昌：因為過去沒有環評的時候，全部都搞完了嘛！實施環評的是0件，頒布了辦法以後來申請的還是0件，我看了就很有意思啊！為什麼頒布辦法了以後來申請的還是0件？因為要處理的都處理完了，處理完了以後才說要環評。來，請經濟部。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：當初有關於彰濱工業區聯合再生搞了這個爛事，我從去年就開始質詢啦！當初怎麼拿到這個案子的？承諾要設4.89公頃的生態熱區，結果呢？所有承諾的事項全部都違反，不可以轉賣套利，也轉賣套利了，承諾要設生態熱區，現在有設嗎？請教經濟部，有設嗎？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，若是任何的案場違反籌設許可甚至電業執照的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有。我現在只問你，當初他們承諾要設4.89公頃的生態熱區，有設嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個是不是容我回去查一下資料，再……"],["黃委員國昌：不用，我直接跟你講，他們沒有設，你知不知道他們為什麼沒有設？他們承諾要設，後來沒有設喔！你知不知道他們為什麼沒有設？"],["賴次長建信：委員，我目前手中沒有這資料。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不知道嘛！我也直接跟你講答案，你們經濟部准他們不用設的，從頭騙到尾，當初違反套利的時候出來幫他們背書、出來幫它護航的，現在卸任了，去當獨董啊！賺大錢了，叫王美花，這件事情國發會後來都承認了，我們一件事情、一件事情來啦！今天我要問你的只有生態熱區，兩件事情你都不知道，沒關係！我在國會負責任的跟你報告，有沒有設？沒有設，為什麼可以不設？經濟部准的。次長，回去請經濟部整理資料，當初為什麼可以准這件事情，兩個禮拜書面回復給我，可以嗎？"],["賴次長建信：遵照辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。高雄的事情等到出事了，經濟部火速撤照，要業者不要僥倖，很好。實際上，你們廢止部分的施工許可，我問一下，目前為止租給他們的地收回來沒有？"],["賴次長建信：現在還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼沒有？"],["賴次長建信：因為我們要求他們必須要恢復原狀，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：我先問一下，他們這個土地使用沒有違反法令嗎？"],["賴次長建信：他們有依照相關非都市計畫的審議規定……"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有違反法令的話，怎麼會被撤照？"],["賴次長建信：跟水土保持計畫來申請，但目前我們撤照是依據他們違反……"],["黃委員國昌：它有沒有被裁罰？"],["賴次長建信：我們有罰他們，縣市政府也有罰他們。"],["黃委員國昌：罰他們？你們為什麼罰他們？因為他們違法嘛！這還不簡單，他們沒有違法，你們要怎麼罰他們？我現在問題來了，他們違法啦！你們罰他們，我OK，我肯定。雖然是亡羊補牢，該做的事還是要做，但我現在問題來了，現在是要放水嗎？"],["賴次長建信：經濟部推動綠能從來沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：從來沒有放水？"],["賴次長建信：沒有這個心態，也沒有這個想法。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？"],["賴次長建信：絕對是依法依規。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在那個經濟部能源署被起訴的模範公務員很無辜就對了，是嗎？"],["賴次長建信：現在還在繫屬法院，還在審理中。"],["黃委員國昌：當然嘛！所以我就問你們標準是什麼嘛？來，看一下租約，承租人使用土地違反法令，要不要終止租約？"],["賴次長建信：他們現在還在依違反法令，主管機關要求他們做相關改正的工作。"],["黃委員國昌：你把租約看清楚，上面有說還要給它機會改正，不改正才可以終止租約嗎？租約是這樣寫的嗎？租約寫承租人使用土地違反法令，就要終止租約收回土地。還是打算怎麼樣？還是打算跟彰濱工業區的案子一樣，決定要放水放到底？上面有說要命改正，逾期不改正，才可以終止租約嗎？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，契約的第18點下面這個框的部分，是在有一個……"],["黃委員國昌：先看11點好不好？請你看一下11點，好不好？本契約出租的土地有下列情況，出租人可以隨時終止租約收回土地，寫得還不夠清楚嗎？"],["賴次長建信：18點的特約事項裡面括弧二，如經通知改善未改善時，出租人得終止租約。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以變成是你認為在簽契約的時候，18點排除11點，你的契約解釋是這樣嗎？誰告訴你的？經濟部的律師告訴你的嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這是台水公司簽訂的契約。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣啊！台水公司不是你們督導的嗎？"],["賴次長建信：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：回去跟台水公司講！這是國家的資產！這樣胡搞瞎搞，地還不收回來！跟當初在放水彰濱工業區的時候如出一轍，一模一樣，出了這麼嚴重的事了，大內宣很會做，很有魄力，罰款，然後呢？"],["賴次長建信：首先跟委員說明，經濟部包括國營事業在處理相關的規定，沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：全部都合法合規？真的嗎？"],["賴次長建信：沒有委員所說的心態。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！我下一次有時間的時候，彰濱工業區經濟部怎麼從頭放水到最後，連國發會都看不下去了，直接跳出來打臉經濟部，當初早就應該回收了，這不是我說的，這是國發會說的。","2016年行政院「太陽光電2年期推動計畫」規劃滯洪池設置太陽光電，2017年嘉義縣府招標「新塭滯洪池光電案」，2018年給大家都很熟的雲豹能源子公司得標。下一張簡報就是今年7月以後造成的狀況，清理完了沒有？"],["賴次長建信：目前99%都清理完了。"],["黃委員國昌：然後接下來打算要怎麼辦？繼續讓它再補新的上去嗎？"],["賴次長建信：不是，接下來相關的廢棄物它必須要依規定來處理之外……"],["黃委員國昌：當然啊！這個都不用講。"],["賴次長建信：它當然也是要復原。"],["黃委員國昌：所以復原就是再鋪新的光電板上去？"],["賴次長建信：因為它只要符合原來電業法相關的規定，我們還是要依法來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，沒有關係，我們把話講清楚就好了。我一直覺得很多媒體很奇怪，嘉義滯洪池這一次造成這麼大問題的就是雲豹，沒有媒體敢報導，我覺得非常的驚訝。現在屏東光電浮台全毀，然後經濟部說：沒有、沒有，那個光電板早就移除了。大家會有這個質疑其實也不意外，那個公司的負責人自己對外面講的，但沒有關係，這不是我現在要問的重點。依照你們給它的抗風浪測試，業者的抗風浪測試要到第幾級風？你給它錢叫它做實驗，依照我們給它補助的相關規範，做這個實驗可以抗幾級風，知道嗎？"],["賴次長建信：基本上它希望是……"],["黃委員國昌：希望？可以用希望的，沒有要求？"],["賴次長建信：沒有，這個基本上是一個試驗計畫，針對臺灣的海域，不管是在14級風的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒有錯，這個我知道，這個我都講過了，我講過的東西不用複述，針對問題回答就好了，有沒有要求它可以抗幾級風？有還是沒有？"],["賴次長建信：這個計畫希望在我們的海域裡面可以長期的維持在這個地方，而且是穩定的。"],["黃委員國昌：可以抗幾級風？不知道？"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，我們要求它必須在這個地方測試，經過一年的耐風，也就是臺灣一年都有颱風，我們要求它經過一年完成測試才會做驗收，所以我們是用它能夠……"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得現在還有可能驗收嗎？接下來往下看，我為什麼問你這個問題？2023年杜蘇芮颱風來襲時，那個時候大內宣很會做，說設計浪高可以抗14米，有嗎？它自己怎麼宣傳的？它宣傳說這個是我們量身打造的太陽能浮台，經實證可以抗17級風。可以抗17級風，今天會變成這樣的海洋浩劫？自吹自擂！業者要自吹自擂，有不實廣告，業者要負責，現在我關心的是這個錢到底怎麼給的？2023年經濟部能源署給它補助，什麼時候給的？"],["賴次長建信：這個計畫是112年到115年。"],["黃委員國昌：對，什麼時候給的？幾月幾號？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們是分批分期做完……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！什麼時候審議通過的？"],["李代理署長君禮：112年7月。"],["黃委員國昌：7月幾號？"],["李代理署長君禮：目前計畫是從7月1日開始。"],["黃委員國昌：你們什麼時候開審議會？"],["李代理署長君禮：中間有3次審議會，第1次是從……"],["黃委員國昌：最後什麼時候通過就好了啦！我上面都幫你列出來，答案都幫你寫出來了，7月28日經濟部能源署審議通過，補助1.35億元，我講的對不對？是吧？沒有錯吧？這是你們公文書上面記載的嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：對，那是我們提供給委員的資料。"],["賴次長建信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，7月28日才審議通過，追溯到7月1日就開始，先射箭再畫靶？"],["賴次長建信：這是廠商的資料。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？7月1日開始，7月28日審議通過，你不會覺得很奇怪？還可以追溯給錢？從它提出申請到核准3個月，7月28日開那一次會，廠商申請的時間是卻是從7月1日開始，我看了這個覺得貓膩很深啊！先射箭再畫靶，光速審查，1.35億就這樣丟出去了，反正納稅人的錢不是錢啊！隨便搞胡亂搞，7月1日開始的計畫，7月28日審議通過，次長，你不會覺得很奇怪？還是這個在公家機關，在經濟部很正常？常常都這樣幹，是這樣嗎？"],["賴次長建信：因為我們在審查時有正式的審查，正式的審查之前還有會前會的審查，有些時候廠商依照會前會的審查，認為這個部分對它有利的就自己披露了，還是以官方……"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟你講，5月的時候提申請書，看一下簡報左手邊，上面的計畫期間寫什麼時候？7月1日到114年12月31日，廠商就直接這樣子寫，你們什麼時候開會審議通過的？112年7月28日，時序我完全沒有講錯。現在問題來了，期間開始的時候，你們都還沒開始審議，到7月底審議通過，追溯到7月1日開始，我看到的叫做先射箭再畫靶。丟了1.35億下去，結果搞成今天這個樣子，海洋浩劫，東西還飄到澎湖那邊去，接下來大家等著看，等著看經濟部怎麼收拾這個爛攤子。當初這個計畫怎麼過的？我調資料，你們說這個要廠商同意才可以提供，次長，廠商有同意嗎？"],["賴次長建信：在10天裡面它必須給我們回復。"],["黃委員國昌：10天之內，我期待。這個廠商不是很會做廣告嗎？抗17級風，去年颱風來都沒事，大內宣很會做，非常會做，因為它的後台很強，它的後台非常的強。"],["賴次長建信：在這邊跟委員再重申，我們在綠能的發展已經建立了廉政平臺，經濟部從來不會想要包庇廠商……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個就是按照你說的嘛！"],["賴次長建信：經濟部不管在推動專案計畫或是對內的審查……"],["黃委員國昌：就是按照你們這個樣子，經濟部能源署光電組的組長才會被起訴嘛！我有說錯嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分起訴，繫屬在法院審理中，我們認為他過去的表現……"],["黃委員國昌：非常的好？"],["賴次長建信：不管是……"],["黃委員國昌：非常的好？"],["賴次長建信：他是一個非常認真的……"],["黃委員國昌：你如果要繼續跟我爭這個，那我就問你一個最直接的問題，當初臺南的力暘是符合小二甲哪一個例外？我上次問部長，部長答不出來，他也不知道是哪一個例外，能源署要上來救援，也答不出來，因為不符合任何例外。現在我沒有跟你討論個案有沒有故意的問題，我光請教一個最簡單的法規適用問題，當初就已經有小二甲的禁令了，請問是符合哪一款的例外？整個經濟部上上下下沒有一個人答得出來，然後你今天敢站在這邊講都按照法規在進行，人民聽得下去喔？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，我們所有……"],["黃委員國昌：這種劣質的廠商，把納稅人的錢當什麼……"],["賴次長建信：絕對是依照法規的。"],["黃委員國昌：把納稅人的錢當提款機喔！"],["賴次長建信：力暘的部分有55個案子，13個案子已經釐清了，這個我們就撤銷了，還有42個案子……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，你不是說都依法，如果都依法，幹嘛還要撤銷？"],["賴次長建信：不是，依法釐清了，它是違反了啊。"],["黃委員國昌：當然就是違法才撤銷嘛！"],["賴次長建信：但還有42個案子還在釐清的部分啊。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？你意思是說因為有42個案子OK，所以當初13個違法過的沒有關係，是這樣嗎？"],["賴次長建信：42個案子必須要主管機關的審認啦，這個不是在我們的權責裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，大家非常關心接下來光電板對於環境所造成的衝擊，經濟部也好、環境部也好，攜手努力，過去犯的錯誤已經造成這樣的結果，不然怎麼辦，現在只有認真地追究責任，更重要的事情是什麼？希望以後這樣的事情不要再發生了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續換澎湖的楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}