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text":"現在進行詢答在詢答前本席先做以下的宣告本會委員午假1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分鐘截止發言登記我們先休息"},{"start":2275.512,"end":2277.454,"text":"繼續開會請陳廷輝委員質詢謝謝主席我們請主委請你主委"},{"start":2292.728,"end":2317.596,"text":"委員長主委長我想在現在公平會可能最重要的一件就是這個外送平台的一個併購案大家都非常關注這個問題那這個整個關注的問題你們現在有要求外送平台的併購案要在11月8號把所有的文件都備齊送進來那現在他們的資料備齊了嗎"},{"start":2319.598,"end":2341.483,"text":"現在文件已經備期有針對你們要求的幾樣都送進來了嗎?你們當時候有要求說他們要做一些解釋也就是未來在整個水平結合限制競爭整個的一個考量狀況然後是不是會影響到後續這個整個競爭的壓力或是有這個獨佔市場的一個狀態有去做這樣的一個要求他們分析評估"},{"start":2349.566,"end":2374.182,"text":"為了審註這個結合案件這個結合當事人必須要做的說明必要的文件當然那是哪些必要文件你們所說的必要文件是哪些必要文件就是說這個結合產生的中效對於利害關係人的影響等等對啊就是這些解釋就是說它可能會造成如果合併之後是不是有外界所疑慮的"},{"start":2375.283,"end":2397.914,"text":"會有這樣的影響到彼此競爭或是有獨佔市場的狀態然後造成彼此在我們有幾樣員工的問題或是在後續競爭狀態然後所有消費者的權益甚至商家的權益這些嗎?都會有請他們一起說明嗎?因為我們在這之前所針對的這幾個重點大家認為有疑慮的"},{"start":2402.136,"end":2402.877,"text":"委員會主管：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":2429.793,"end":2458.446,"text":"我們開公平會就只有開那四場為什麼就開那幾場我們的座談會在北中南東都有開那除了這個座談會之外整個外送平台的併觀是不是很嚴重大家是不是矚目的焦點影響非常非常大是不是我要收集更多的資訊data也就是讓業者外送員消費者"},{"start":2459.326,"end":2469.696,"text":"他們可以充分表達是不是應該這樣子因為我們當時候一直強調的是你如何保障三方的權益嘛外送員、消費者、餐飲業者"},{"start":2471.256,"end":2488.947,"text":"所以這三個重要的一個區塊你要讓他們充分表達可是你們的公聽會座談會就是辦了四場高雄一場、台中一場、宜蘭一場、台北一場這麼重大矚目的案件你們有那麼吝嗇就只辦四場喔"},{"start":2490.928,"end":2492.069,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2513.57,"end":2536.223,"text":"請問問卷現在回收率多少?你們發了幾份出去?問卷你們發了幾份出去?我們在這個網路上有意見徵詢目前有600多個意見進來網路那總共包括外送員、餐飲業者有跟Uber有跟那個Foodpanda還有消費者這全部有多少人?"},{"start":2537.355,"end":2554.094,"text":"你現在才600多個阿那你有去了解全國有多少嗎?是全省回來的意見600多個嗎?對嘛 全國意見全國意見有600多份嘛那我要問你 全國總共外送、原產營業者、消費者總共有多少?"},{"start":2556.084,"end":2556.404,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":2571.294,"end":2572.935,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":2588.789,"end":2613.807,"text":"外送員佔了多少?餐飲業者佔了多少?消費者佔了多少?這部分我們有分析有嗎?分析多少?這600多份外送員多少?大部分的意見外送員有500多份500多份有外送員那餐飲業者呢?還有其他的包括這個其他的利害關係的人除了外送員以外還有其他 那我就單指這個外送員外送員你知道現在"},{"start":2615.273,"end":2618.135,"text":"外送公會現在的回應是怎麼樣你們整個外送公會現在全國的外送公會有幾個"},{"start":2637.649,"end":2663.726,"text":"這個各地的外送工會有幾個?有相當多啦,就是大大小小的外送工會你有沒有去了解嘛,你既然主委你要跟我講說你還有針對工會,那你就要非常清楚說那我們全國的工會有幾個?全國一個,各縣市幾個?你有沒有去了解啊?你都沒有這些資訊,你跟我講說有啦我有問這個,我有問那個,阿結果咧?我這樣一問,你的Data資料給我嗎?"},{"start":2665.27,"end":2693.657,"text":"你的工會外送工會你說的嘛這都是你說的我都順你的話說喔主委我沒有假的跟你說一句話鹹的說一句話喔這都是我順你的話說的在臺北廠就有60幾個工協會來參加那各地的這個工協會呃 詳細的數字我手上沒有掌握但是就臺北來看齁就有60幾家的工會來參加主委你不要跟我一樣在這邊一直在繞嘛"},{"start":2695.904,"end":2720.719,"text":"你今天我已經跟你說現在座談會跟公聽會市場夠不夠我認為不夠既然這麼大的爭議你為什麼不六都都辦你為什麼不六都都辦然後東部在花東也辦一場你在宜蘭耶花東要到宜蘭好那你跟我講說有啦我們網路也有結果被我一問"},{"start":2723.85,"end":2736.777,"text":"14萬的外送員才回來500多份的問卷你說我還有針對工會 工會也有哥哥 我問你工會有多少 你也說不出來 你說有啦在台北的時候有很多工會 有60幾個工會有參加你又把我回鍋到整個公聽會的制度裡面"},{"start":2744.873,"end":2767.245,"text":"所以你根本就沒有落實嘛如果我們是要應付的這個嚴重性知識體大這個併掛案是非常嚴重的你們不能等閒失智用你們過去的SOP你們要加強版吶發言委員吼你不會說今天公聽會我會翻啊我問卷有花啦"},{"start":2768.82,"end":2792.161,"text":"就這樣嗎就這樣嗎你知道外送員的聲音餐飲業者的聲音消費者的聲音我如果這樣一問你們根本都沒有辦法掌控他們的聲音其實我們在很多場的公聽會還有立法院委員組織的公聽會我們都有去了解而且都有掌握所以那你為什麼你所以嘛那你的意思就是說安這也沒辦法"},{"start":2793.562,"end":2815.472,"text":"也不用辦公聽會嗎?也不用辦座談會嗎?因為我只要從立委的手上、立委的嘴中、然後所有的一些相關的單位講就可以了嗎?我跟妳說,我們要做就要做到腳紋啦!不要應付啦!要做就要做到腳紋啦!今天外送平台的併購案,妳也知道"},{"start":2817.038,"end":2834.084,"text":"聲音很大你是不是應該把它做得更仔細為什麼我們吝嗇去辦這些公聽會我們辦了讓他們來說他們不願意那麼我們沒有話講可是你今天為什麼六都不辦"},{"start":2835.799,"end":2839.982,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個結合文件齊備之後就一個審查期間"},{"start":2853.851,"end":2854.511,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管"},{"start":2880.897,"end":2895.268,"text":"進入審查的程序。 是啊,你進入審查,我知道你進入審查,審查有30個工作天啊,在今年12月19號以前要準博啊,對不對?如果沒有的話可以再延長60天啊,是不是?"},{"start":2896.128,"end":2921.821,"text":"對阿可是我的意思是說在你審查過程這個這麼重要的你如何讓這三方外送員消費者還有餐飲業者充分表達他們的意見那麼就會成為你們準博非常重要的意見依據這才是重要啦主委不要等閒視之這告訴你如果處理不好事我告訴你會炸鍋謝謝"},{"start":2928.74,"end":2944.964,"text":"請您電話委員諮詢有請主委請你主委委員早這個主席不好意思那個資訊的問題我們處理一下好時間暫停謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":2959.181,"end":2975.419,"text":"本席也延續陳金飛陳委員的議題這個外送平臺整併加速透明加速要透明這會涉及到這三個消費者從業人員跟產業以及第四個就是這個平臺這平臺串起的這三個消費者"},{"start":2977.06,"end":3005.974,"text":"以及這個產品的提供者以及產業好那後疫情時代外送服務已經成為改變了商業服務的模式外送平台成為現代消費模式在疫情後呢外送服務成為國人的日常我們也為我們在地的餐飲業者提供了嶄新的銷售管道那政府的角色是什麼如何在這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長讓國人跟在地業者"},{"start":3006.474,"end":3008.636,"text":"本席要問您這次的外送平台結合審查案市場界定範圍是什麼?"},{"start":3032.25,"end":3052.535,"text":"就我們來看它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平台餐飲就是銷售供給者還有外送那所以呢消費者的需求市場跟這本身投入的派遣人員外送人員不是派遣人員外送人員勞動力的媒合者這不是你們要管的"},{"start":3054.684,"end":3061.166,"text":"今天的這個平台為什麼我們大家重視除了市佔率他會達到9成包括他所涉及的我們的這個本身的勞動力他們會不會被壓榨因為壟斷之後被壓榨消費者的選擇他的這個採購的權利是不是也縮小包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付他的這種壓榨的我是不是也被市場邊緣"},{"start":3082.573,"end":3088.228,"text":"這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於你僅限於平台還有什麼"},{"start":3089.804,"end":3117.365,"text":"跟這個勞動人員嗎?跟這個外送人員嗎?因為這是兩個平台的結合所以我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平台的行業那所以它的市場界限就是餐飲外送平台就是要管平台其他的這個你們在審查過程它所會影響的只就它的市場面的獨佔性那對於它這個所有相關的外送平台所媒合的三個需求市場你們是不管的"},{"start":3118.346,"end":3131.624,"text":"參與銷售供給消費者需求勞動力服務這不是你的市場界定我們先界定市場是什麼這個市場它的利害關係人有餐廳有外送員有消費者對市場的影響就會把剛才委員提到的"},{"start":3135.109,"end":3146.698,"text":"消費者也好餐廳也好那你們這個過程當中有跟目的主管西關交通部公路總理去討論如何節制外送平台業者及輔導這個外送員以及輔導這個餐飲的銷售市場跟消費者嗎"},{"start":3154.404,"end":3178.471,"text":"我們在跨機關聯繫都有除了交通部數位部經濟部這個對他們產業所輔導的對象或是他們關心對象都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量好OK那公平會這邊應該避免散訴消費者屬外送平台集中之後消費者的選擇會減少少數平台掌控市場後會提高服務費"},{"start":3179.651,"end":3196.685,"text":"配送費及擴大通膨的影響餐廳數對地區型的中小型的餐飲他溢價能力本身就不足平台合併後的抽成費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營的壓力這種競爭格局就更的"},{"start":3197.626,"end":3222.158,"text":"更不平等部分的參與業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場淪為市場的邊緣外送元素當我的平台結合後如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件收入結構就會遭遇到更大的壓力市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時報酬遭到壓縮而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由"},{"start":3222.938,"end":3224.84,"text":"公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金：反托拉斯基金："},{"start":3243.018,"end":3263.589,"text":"公平會議就要更謹慎了希望審查的結果能夠讓餐飲業從業人員消費者的權益得到三贏的局面那這個本席想了解為什麼你5月收件之後你11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件拖了6個月為什麼這期間有當事人要這個補件的機會還有各界的意見這個我們會請"},{"start":3267.531,"end":3280.038,"text":"合併試驗提出說明中間有一些補件的過程文件齊備以後才正式進入審查你們如何確保審查程序更為公開透明我們的審查會有委員會來針對委員會不會對外公開"},{"start":3286.562,"end":3314.488,"text":"包括剛才陳委員這邊提到的阿你連那個收集收整的這個過程也是一個公開透明阿你們的公開透明怎麼針對14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾包括那些參議院者你是看不到的阿我們的委員對於這幾個月來各界的意見都會所以你的公開透明還沒有做到更公開透明阿就只有在內部審查我們只有外界只有"},{"start":3315.208,"end":3341.853,"text":"被動的接受你的成果而已委員會的審查有一定的程序好來具體的回應一下公平會當然本席期待的希望更開加速更有效的處理外送平台合併案確保審查過程的透明度所以這邊你要提出請你呢在一個禮拜內這個回應這個本席你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開透明所以你剛才講那個機制我認為不夠公開還不夠透明"},{"start":3344.853,"end":3372.996,"text":"防止市場壟斷對消費者從業人員跟中小型的參與業者負面好 這個下一題你具體回答我你什麼時候完成此案的審查並對外公佈完整因為你的任期到明年的1月31號雖然你是續任的主委但對於這個案子你已經拖了6個月好 當然你有一些解釋那也可以3個月完成他也可以4個月完成你就拖了半年好 那從現在算起"},{"start":3374.036,"end":3394.053,"text":"那這個你的任期到1月31你是要拖過你的任期呢還是要什麼時候結束呢我們的法定審查期間是7倍之後30天所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號那在這個必要還需要再延長的話可以再延長60個工作天我知道規定那您什麼時候讓他處理掉"},{"start":3395.114,"end":3415.93,"text":"你要你的任期1月31號所以你是覺得有沒有透過我任期都不要緊反正就交定署反正我是續任的主委反正沒有人可以監督我我們審這個案子一定照法定程序來處理我不會把任期以否作為考量的因素所以不會在你1月31號再繼續拖就對了"},{"start":3418.092,"end":3437.08,"text":"不會拖 在你任期間可不可以結束我想要看委員會討論的情形你是主委啊你是在主導會議的人我主導會議但是我沒有辦法主導委員可能提出的問題沒有問題當然不能主導他們但是你對時程你可以要求啊時程上要看委員討論的內容有沒有需要再去了解"},{"start":3438.621,"end":3459.078,"text":"沒有辦法處理嗎 你的這個主委跟我的國發會主委跟我的這個僑委會的主委跟我之前的現在叫農委部農委會的主委是不一樣的你這個主委是架空的性質不一樣的地方因為每位委員有他獨立的判斷所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成嘛 對不對我們一定會盡速審慎來處理這個案件對 不會在你任期完成嘛好 那你就繼續拖吧"},{"start":3467.024,"end":3485.647,"text":"就看到你的態度我覺得公平會是可以廢掉的這再一次證明本席的主張再來你公平會是否應接同公路總局消保會勞動部等相關單位強化外送平台的管制作為跟相關關係人的輔導以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢"},{"start":3487.027,"end":3514.174,"text":"交通部消保會勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平台這個都有一些會議我們都有參與其中如果跟公平競爭跟競爭有關的這個我們責務龐大一定要一起來處理所以你們不做輔導的工作不做輔導的工作基本上我們是對他有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為這句話就好我再抓住你這句話就好你這句話就符合你的職長那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷"},{"start":3515.594,"end":3537.409,"text":"你的郭純芝傳銷你這個是你怎麼去發展一個我剛才講的管制跟輔導你怎麼做到輔導你可以做到仲裁你是一個仲裁角色因為目前的法律對所以要改嘛但是重點是你認不認同你認同要改這個您當到現在你還來跟我講說法律的問題你的社會共識社會目前的問題的"},{"start":3539.85,"end":3558.46,"text":"的掌握以及你的問題的解決方法你要很明確你才去改你的法律你的預算你的人事啊你在跟我講枝枝節節的所以公平會是一個仲裁的角色是一個管理的管制的角色他不是輔導的角色所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該去"},{"start":3559.901,"end":3573.473,"text":"對多層次傳銷應該做任何的一個主管作為主管機關你是要去重禮他的任何各部會只要涉及包括金管會銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你要不要會同理只要跟本會的業務有關我們都會跨機關對啊那你可以去輔導銀行嗎"},{"start":3584.278,"end":3601.617,"text":"竟然惠東你可以輔導銀行嗎?我們如果跟競爭有關,我們也會跟銀行有聯繫對啊,你就是針對競爭嘛,不公平嘛,市場嘛那你對多層次傳銷,你當然可以對它做合併或壟斷市場的一個強制的管理作為你可以輔導它嗎?"},{"start":3604.656,"end":3614.901,"text":"多層次傳銷行業在你這邊你可以輔導他嗎目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管：對你可以輔導他嗎我們可以輔導你可以輔導你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎"},{"start":3617.687,"end":3617.908,"text":"請求議員委員諮詢"},{"start":3659.463,"end":3671.578,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下公平會主委"},{"start":3679.479,"end":3700.229,"text":"主委早主委我想今天在討論公平會的這個預算有幾個問題想要救教來第一個這個臺灣隊在前幾天打贏了這個世界冠軍是全國上下都非常的開心但是我們就發現有一則新聞我不曉得公平會有沒有去注意到就是臺北市有一個業者叫喜傑斯"},{"start":3701.73,"end":3722.709,"text":"他在網路上呢就公開說這個如果他的這一篇貼文按了一個讚就可以折一塊錢那這個累積是無上限折價是無上限折扣的金額是沒有上限的所以呢就被網友發現了這件事那網友在很短的時間之內就開始不斷的去按讚"},{"start":3725.436,"end":3740.385,"text":"後來這家公司發現他們在很短的時間獲得了1.7萬個讚之後這個公司就在沒有提前公告的情況之下開始不斷的修改他的活動條件內容總共修改了多達18次"},{"start":3742.006,"end":3768.975,"text":"甚至到網友已經都截圖了等等他說這公司就直接說因為他的官網被攻擊所以這個活動大概都不算未來的這些甚至什麼價格是被批圖的折扣無法依照定價除了你們有沒有去注意到這一則新聞這個我有注意到你有注意到那他有沒有涉及違反所謂的公平交易法跟不實的廣告"},{"start":3770.151,"end":3790.823,"text":"有沒有在這個整個的消費行為上面涉及到了我們相關的法令誤導消費者拉不當競爭拉這個不實廣告拉有沒有這個你們會不會主動去啟動調查會不會給台灣的消費者一個合理的調查報告或者是一個合理的"},{"start":3791.801,"end":3792.141,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管"},{"start":3808.255,"end":3836.461,"text":"我想這個應該很多網友都會去注意到這件事情嘛很多人都是要蹭著這個臺灣隊的冠軍那當然各式各樣的優惠其實我覺得這個都難免但是如果說自己提出來的優惠在短時間之內改了18次然後沒有任何的公告而且他的那個優惠的條件是越來越縮水甚至到最後他講說他其實是官網被攻擊的話我想這個其實誤導消費者或者是做不實廣告的成分其實是非常的大"},{"start":3836.741,"end":3837.021,"text":"公平會的預算明年"},{"start":3865.333,"end":3889.616,"text":"的這個宣傳的費用對於多層次傳銷的宣傳費用只增加了73,000塊那看起來其實公平會每一年都有編列相關的宣導的費用可是主委你會不會覺得你能這樣子宣導而且第一個經費很少成效不顯著第二個你的宣導"},{"start":3890.902,"end":3914.947,"text":"的成果其實並沒有達到你每一年違反多層次傳銷的這一些違規的案件違規的件數其實還是在不斷的增加當中那113年因為到現在這個是到7月底的統計報告所以到今年年底會有多少件我現在看不到你們現在還沒送出資料出來"},{"start":3915.714,"end":3928.73,"text":"但是我覺得就整體而言你在多層次傳銷的這些宣導上面其實並沒有達到你們應該有的效果那你增加了7萬塊我不知道你7萬塊可以做什麼"},{"start":3930.519,"end":3943.594,"text":"賴主委您要不要解要說明一下跟文說明多層次傳銷我們這7萬塊跟過去來比相較於其他的廣泉確實不多那我們在過去因為多層次傳銷的業務這些業者是"},{"start":3946.417,"end":3947.678,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":3962.005,"end":3963.186,"text":"公平交易委員會主管"},{"start":3984.955,"end":3996.801,"text":"沒有達到你們應該有的目的那感覺上就是在消化預算而已這個我認為在審查預算的時候我們會再提出來跟公平會做討論我覺得你們應該要好好的去檢討一下你這個宣傳的費用應該怎麼花應該要花在哪裡應該要宣傳哪一個部分我覺得這個是公平會應該做的事情"},{"start":4007.486,"end":4026.181,"text":"我們一方面業者不應該有違法的行為一方面我們也在全省各地區有做宣告我告訴你啦當然是不應該有違法的行為但是我剛剛就講過了嘛會違法的人他還是會違法嘛第三個議題我要請教因為我時間剩下只有幾十秒齁這個剛剛大家都講到Uber Eats跟Fupenda的這個合併案齁"},{"start":4027.462,"end":4036.569,"text":"這個是我在你們的網站上面下載下來主委你們剛剛講公平公開但是公平會在針對Uber Eats這個併購案的時候你們大概有608則是上網去表達意見相對比較其他的結合案這個意見表達是多的但是我們無法從網站上面看到這608則的意見內容是什麼"},{"start":4056.904,"end":4071.198,"text":"這有可能都是你們自己內參但是我們其實你講的公平公開我們其實很希望看到到底這608則談論的內容是什麼或者是說你們在審查的時候其實可以把它做一些彙整"},{"start":4071.998,"end":4087.488,"text":"讓大家你不必每一則都把文字敘述出來但是你可以讓社會大眾或者是讓評議委員很清楚的知道這608則裡頭討論的是關於哪一方面的贊成的居多還是反對的居多大家提出來的意見是什麼"},{"start":4088.208,"end":4114.434,"text":"我覺得這樣的所謂的公平公開其實對社會大眾來講是很重要的而且今天立法院裡頭我相信待會也會有很多的委員都會跟您問到這一題那我剛剛查了一下你們的法令你們講這個審查嘛12月19號以前要準播如果不行的話會再延個60天到明年3月以前我其實比較想知道的就是說如果"},{"start":4115.563,"end":4124.847,"text":"如果你們到最後是不同意它結合但是業者執意結合的時候政府會怎麼做我講的是如果如果我們不同意結合它就不能結合"},{"start":4132.495,"end":4155.58,"text":"可是他還是照樣結合阿他還是照做阿你剛剛講到說他們其實已經實際上在進行結合的工作了嘛其實審查還在你們這嘛但是實際上他們是不是已經開始在做進行的結合的工作包括人員包括配送包括等等內部的這些行政流程他一定不可能等你準博了之後才開始去做這些行政"},{"start":4156.48,"end":4158.242,"text":"我們如果禁止結合就不能結合 如果他這樣做的話"},{"start":4184.73,"end":4185.891,"text":"公平交易委員會"},{"start":4204.916,"end":4229.134,"text":"結合這個就是在法律上有處罰的規定而且相當嚴格如果你只是處罰而已後續的這些法律效力我想公平會可能還是要先設想在前面有些人會可能有一些公司會覺得說你這個也沒有太大的法律效力我就遣罰一罰就好了我們最終可以命令解散的那些停止營業這是最嚴重的處置所以在這個法律上是有機制去處理"},{"start":4230.015,"end":4258.621,"text":"去處理這個違規的行為你的勒令解散是解散哪一家解散Uber Eats還是解散Fu Panda還是解散它結合的新公司它如果結合的新公司後面改一個名字來它告訴你它不是結合它只是重新創立一個新公司你要怎麼處理這些問題你們都要想清楚喔主委我現在只是把這個問題拋出來有可能會發生這樣的狀況這個你們都要先去預先去試想它一定不會是用Uber Eats的名字或者是用Fu Panda的名字嘛它有可能你要求它解散"},{"start":4259.121,"end":4260.962,"text":"請問在場委員上市會議意思錄有無錯誤沒有意思錄確定現在請政政權委員質詢"},{"start":4298.208,"end":4300.619,"text":"呃謝謝主席我想請一下李主委請李主委"},{"start":4306.857,"end":4329.754,"text":"委員長主委好最近大家都在關心平台業者那個合併的事情不過這邊我要先問一個因為11月8號的時候公平會針對新竹城黃廟裡面有17家攤商聯合漲價5元的行為認定是違反了公平交易法這件事情"},{"start":4332.726,"end":4354.331,"text":"這個事情的背景我特別講一下因為他時間發生不是在現在他事情發生是在去年四五月的時候雞蛋之亂的時候坦白說在當時雞蛋之亂的時候就是漲價五塊錢真的算是良心商店你知道嗎針對這個部分主委可不可以做個說明"},{"start":4355.171,"end":4370.442,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是說每一個店家基於成本或是各種營業的考量去漲價這個公平會不會去處罰他那新竹城黃廟的情形是他聯合公告一起漲價"},{"start":4371.403,"end":4399.972,"text":"理解齁?那個主委我覺得從法律上來講大概都沒有問題本席理解齁可是因為最主要是因為超華廟裡面它都是小商鋪它其實就是一個小鋪位而已齁而且只有17家說實話超華廟外面有幾十家上百家的鋪位那我們聯合行為當中裡面有特別提到一個部分就是說公平交易法第14條第1項它裡面講到要足以影響生產商品交易或者服務供需的市場功能"},{"start":4400.892,"end":4420.12,"text":"17家業者在整個城隍廟附近根本是很小的一個數量他沒有能夠去影響這個市場功能所以我知道這個事情其實後來公平會也沒有處罰只是警示可是我要講的狀態是針對這樣的事情公平會就警示了之後呢發新聞稿你現在上網去查的時候就出現城隍廟"},{"start":4422.141,"end":4448.051,"text":"他就是一個聯合漲價違法都是在新聞不斷的出現這是公平會做出來的結果那針對這個部分的時候我覺得是對新竹城市非常的不公平因為基本上他們聯合行為相較於整個城市廟附近來說是非常小的幾個商家那這個部分我要特別再延伸到另外一個問題是我上次有曾經問過了一個就是現在衛福部對於"},{"start":4449.091,"end":4469.406,"text":"整所掛號費這個部分他們擺明不管那我上次質詢了之後呢現在掛號費這邊漲到500塊幾乎跟台大一樣整所漲到3倍以上的價格那你們當時回我的時候表示說你們有查到了在陽梅這邊有兩家醫院有聯合行為的行為"},{"start":4470.487,"end":4499.392,"text":"這只有全台灣這麼多的狀態這只有陽梅這邊有兩家診所有聯合行為這個部分的時候主管你這邊可以回應一下對於掛號費漲了好幾倍然後我們這邊好像也沒有任何的一個動作然後新竹城隍廟幾百家業者也有17家他們一起漲五塊錢在雞蛋之亂的時候漲了五塊錢竟然就被發新聞稿警示"},{"start":4500.834,"end":4516.856,"text":"主委你可以說明一下 到底這樣公平嗎我先跟委員說明 城隍廟這因為已經有很明確的這個事實因為他掛一個公告那這樣子呢 一起漲價的行為其實我們擔心會造成整個烘台物價的一個效果"},{"start":4517.216,"end":4544.13,"text":"所以我們在委員會討論的時候也了解到這個蚵仔煎米粉貢丸湯經營非常的不容易那我們在調查的時候也跟這個城隍廟的相關的人都相為解說他們大概也了解這樣的一個情形主委我理解喔最主要的是因為城隍廟附近幾百家商家17家因為雞蛋滋亂的時候漲五塊錢公平會這麼樣大張旗鼓去做了一個新聞稿警示然後"},{"start":4545.21,"end":4572.611,"text":"現在呢注那個掛號費的部分大家可能沒有講好可是有默契都漲了喔漲了幾百塊錢喔掛號費我們也有去全省的這些診所都有去了解我們沒有證據去證明到說有哪一些醫院是跟人家聯合一起漲價因為我覺得特別提到我知道這個部分公平會這邊在法律上站了住腳可是情感上大家覺得很荒謬"},{"start":4573.912,"end":4592.55,"text":"雞蛋之亂的時候城隍廟前面的小攤家漲五塊錢你發新聞稿警示他們結果整個診所的掛號費衛福部不管把責任推到公平會這邊來公平會這邊人家有默契的漲價是你說沒有證據"},{"start":4594.011,"end":4615.724,"text":"民眾的感受不一樣就那個兩家桃園那兩家診所聯合我們有發新聞稿任何違反公平交易法的案件我們為了促請社會大眾注意是因為診所有幾千家上萬家你只查到兩家齁所以我們也才會知道你如果沒有發新聞稿這兩家我也不會知道有這麼離譜的狀態城隍廟的17家小攤漲五塊錢你發新聞稿然後"},{"start":4623.94,"end":4647.695,"text":"掛號費兩家然後你發了新聞稿我們就發現裡面有很多荒唐的事情那我接下來剩下的時間有限我還是要特別關心一下復本納跟那個Uber Eats的問題那這個事情因為其實我們在前兩禮拜我們也開了一個協調會那也很感謝公平會來做了一個很詳細的一個說明可是我要特別提到因為這個部分它影響的部分不只是"},{"start":4648.556,"end":4664.986,"text":"福佩拉當中550個員工的一個狀態不是影響到10萬個跟他們曾經有過互動的商家也不是那個外送員你剛剛講14萬我得到訊息是22萬因為目前有兩個不同的數字"},{"start":4666.087,"end":4666.267,"text":"消費者輸"},{"start":4690.03,"end":4694.112,"text":"公平會接受併購的一個申請感覺上很像在傳達一個狀態是如果用附加條件的時候公平會會同意他們做這個併購會有這樣的一個方向嗎?"},{"start":4694.112,"end":4694.153,"text":"主委"},{"start":4713.462,"end":4742.577,"text":"沒有 我們委員會還沒有討論是 不會嘛 對不對這目前純粹只是業者在帶一個這樣子的風向在傳遞這樣的一個訊息 對不對還沒有開始討論 對不對目前還沒有討論是會準或不準或者是負條件所以針對這個部分因為影響很多然後我聽到幾乎每個委員都問到這件事情那我給一個數字針對外送員的權益的部分因為在過去當中烏貝利他本來對外送員就不是一個很有善的一個"},{"start":4743.297,"end":4746.651,"text":"老闆那對於整個外送費當中的時候"},{"start":4747.932,"end":4775.389,"text":"主委你看從2015年不限里程一單可以100塊2018往下降變成一單60元然後限制兩公里然後2020年的時候一單變成40元限制兩公里2023年的時候一單40元變成4公里範圍表示外送平台在目前有競爭的情況之下的時候呢對於整個外送員的權益就不斷的在剝削"},{"start":4776.63,"end":4803.557,"text":"如果變成一家獨大的時候那情況會怎麼樣子我們不敢去想像所以我們希望公平會在這個外送平台的併購案當中一定要擔起我們應該要有一個責任那其實目前包括說在新加坡在新加坡他們都曾經拒絕過這樣的一個合併案當然也有不同的國家有不同的做法那我們希望"},{"start":4804.697,"end":4804.717,"text":"請張緝開委員諮詢"},{"start":4848.2,"end":4849.081,"text":"委員長大家都在關心這次的合併案"},{"start":4864.315,"end":4887.333,"text":"你剛剛有特別講到說這個過程裡面一定會公開公正跟公開嘛 對不對我們審查的過程會很慎重但是審查的這個過程不會公開委員會討論不會公開要做到公平嘛 對不對是會公平讓民眾後來要知道整個狀況嘛你剛剛有特別提到你說已經開市街的這個"},{"start":4890.472,"end":4900.009,"text":"公聽會是不是?我們的大大小小北中南東齁是都有在開那個委員講說太少這是一個第二個我要問你你開了公聽會我怎麼接到一個通知"},{"start":4901.394,"end":4930.332,"text":"你後天白天要開一個座談會嗎?我跟委員講 我們這個程序是這樣先各界徵詢意見然後我們把這些意見徵詢之後我們會有個跨際觀或是學者專家會議就比較內部會議外面的意見徵詢差不多了這個引起很多人注意喔這個會第一個它是個閉門會嘛它不是溝通會啊座談會嘛 對不起 等一下 注意你現在找的人少了都是平台除了學者之外王立達他們幾個學者之外"},{"start":4932.054,"end":4948.482,"text":"你這派厲害關係人你這個公會代表沒有找啊還有潛在的跟委員說明我們的程式是這樣徵詢意見就有不管是外送公會或是餐飲界那慢慢我們已經進入審查程序我們那個潛在的競爭者"},{"start":4949.847,"end":4975.745,"text":"有可能會經營平台業務的潛在的競爭者我們也要聽他的意見因為我們在審查對競爭的影響就要包括說有可能跟他競爭的人所以我們的層次是從外面到裡面內部專家在競爭法關係的影響會一起做討論所以這邊的開會是有外送平台市場競爭跟結合的這個管制現在外面開始有點緊張因為當然他是一個閉門的嘛"},{"start":4978.007,"end":5003.422,"text":"第一個閉門他現在開始外面一直在傳了啦就是說有沒有公平的問題然後第二個看起來是有可能以前聽起來是沒有過機會比較大嘛現在看起來又可能用附帶結議過用附帶結議過然後現在他們的要求是這麼清楚第一個你既然是閉門的到時候這個會議紀錄要進去檢驗這是一個喔第二個更重要的阿你找平台來開會阿那我剛剛講的消費者代表求消息會阿"},{"start":5005.741,"end":5009.406,"text":"公會代表是不是另外應該也要開一場這個閉門的這個座談會都有書面請他們正式表達意見你開公開的公聽會之後你要開的先你要辦一個座談會那你為什麼只有平台呢你應該對"},{"start":5020.747,"end":5024.889,"text":"對這個消費者阿對那個外送員工會應該要辦一場阿不是嗎?"},{"start":5024.889,"end":5042.876,"text":"因為這些都有公平這些都有開過阿那公聽會阿你這一場最特別就是因為是座談會是關門的阿這其實是這樣齁我們在程序上也有一些專家齁那有潛在競爭者我們分不同的不同的這個在產業上的不同的關係來做好不好?"},{"start":5042.876,"end":5045.237,"text":"各位我明確要求那把這個不要辦成座談會開成公聽會讓大家可以公開"},{"start":5048.038,"end":5073.395,"text":"你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消費、消息會?你之前找消"},{"start":5077.077,"end":5104.264,"text":"找這些平臺呢?這一些平臺是潛在的可能競爭者他們是不同的這個在整個餐飲外送平臺扮演不同的這個利害關係注意所以第一個要嘛就把這個座談會公開這些事情啊等一下你如果是直接找一個平臺你就是我剛剛講的公會然後這個消氣會這是我們消費者這個代表你要在另外再開一場好不好"},{"start":5106.485,"end":5132.638,"text":"二選一把這個公開發言委員你說學者啊學者經就去考驗嘛對不對發言委員我們的審查期間30天齁那我們這一段時間半年來我們對於各方的意見其實都掌握了那我們也網路徵詢意見了我們應該是開始要好好來審這個案件如果繼續開公聽會那我知道不是公聽會不是公聽會我要你把座談會開這個"},{"start":5134.499,"end":5153.306,"text":"不管它的形式是公聽會或座談會這些都是作為我們審查的時候的一個參考的依據如果我們再繼續開不同的不管是內部會議或者是非公開會議所以你能不能增加一場利害關係人的可行性的會議是座談會可不可以"},{"start":5156.092,"end":5174.878,"text":"現在只有二選一嘛 要嘛這個會公開嘛 對不對第二個是公平嘛 對不對 可以嗎那個委員就是說 厲害關心人會議最主要是那個外送公會 公會我們開過非常多的會議 而且他們都有來那個是公聽會 這個是第一次的座談會嘛所以我要求你兩個 你把這個座談會變成公開的這樣平等了 對不對第二個你如果要特別再開一個座談會"},{"start":5185.821,"end":5188.723,"text":"社會網路創新中心人家做了3117份超過八成的外送人怎麼說"},{"start":5214.093,"end":5225.863,"text":"外送員沒有能力跟Uber Eats爭取更好的工作條件Uber Eats會利用它獨大的地位減少外送員的酬勞第三個欠缺競爭的狀況之下"},{"start":5228.497,"end":5253.173,"text":"會產生什麼?會不會會降低外送員的各項獎勵跟補貼?這是你還在做問卷嗎?我給你一個更多更多是這些資料我們有有齁?你這個也會參考嘛對不對?好另外有一個這次的案子裡面有一個非常重要的你有沒有去注意到國外的外送平台的抽成的這個比例你看一下喔美國大部分的州啊只有抽15%"},{"start":5254.71,"end":5257.712,"text":"日本24.9到26.4韓國庫盤跟我們庫盤抽多少9.8可是我們臺灣的吳某義提供35普遍打提供32到39會不會太高"},{"start":5271.236,"end":5291.804,"text":"這個有沒有影響到你在審這個案子的時候能不能在消費者的這個角度都幫消費者一點那個抽成的高低是市場機制但是如果因為談判地位不平等利用自己這個談判強的這個地位去做不當的這個限制這我們會去處理但是單純的定價我們基本上是市場機制注意公平會這段時間給人家的這個評價是四平八穩"},{"start":5297.426,"end":5297.986,"text":"保守有餘,開創不足。"},{"start":5319.861,"end":5347.822,"text":"第2個業者他本來被外送平台抽繩那個錢也有可能轉嫁到這邊來阿還有外送員這個錢阿外送費阿所以會出現這個狀況來我們看一下我們平常去買我們如果到店家去買例如說一個便當差不多一百塊對不對如果你變過來如果越來這個整個那個毒戰越來越嚴重搞不好也會出現這個狀況喔一個便當去買是一百塊結果呢業者要抽繩要轉嫁搞不好多了35塊"},{"start":5349.178,"end":5371.305,"text":"然後呢外送費又要可能要多50塊錢外送平台又要抽10塊錢一個平台差不多是兩倍的價格出來喔所以這個案子這次請要特別特別慎重好不好好來我最後做一個結論齁第一個最重要為了要保護到消費者跟外送員跟餐廳的這個潛力齁所以最理想還是要提一個專法台灣民眾黨已經提出了專法"},{"start":5373.237,"end":5396.011,"text":"那我請政府行政部門也要想一想要提專法這個方向去做第二個在外送員的這個外送費以後應該訂一個地板價要去保障他們好不好他們真的是比較弱勢的可是相對餐廳的業者要訂一個合理的天花板價第三然後呢平台更要訂這個天花板價這三個都非常重要"},{"start":5396.351,"end":5418.481,"text":"那除了外送費、平台服務費跟抽成這個轉嫁的價格之外外送平台以後不能夠用任何名義再疊加或者加取我們這個費用了好不好請主委特別注意一下另外最後就是我剛提的你回去之後你再討論一下既然你加開了一次的公聽會四場之後你又加開了一場座談會又要把它變成是公開的那沒有的話利害關係人"},{"start":5420.239,"end":5436.788,"text":"消極會消費者潛力的這個保障團體公會業者是不是應該再加開一場座談會請回去好好討論一下好不好好謝謝請楊瓊英委員質詢謝主席楊瓊發言再邀請主委請你主委"},{"start":5455.182,"end":5470.85,"text":"委員長主委好11月13號報導公平會你在2024年的國際競爭網絡的結合研討會當中你有特別提出全球化與數位經濟的興起之下企業透過了併購"},{"start":5475.932,"end":5502.882,"text":"壯大實力已經是必然的趨勢那並公案大幅的增加但是也帶來市場整個集中的一個風險威脅了市場的自然自由以及公平競爭的可能那進而也生怕會損害到消費者的一個權益因此你主管機關單位的管制以及如何的與時俱進這是非常重要的一個競爭法"},{"start":5504.443,"end":5523.224,"text":"主要的一個課題嘛這是你在這個研討會當中你的論點本來本席呢非常的讚許那所以呢就用這個論點我們來討論喔因為本席跟你說過了我們討論過幾次這個UberEats跟Fupenda的併購案到目前為止從你們建案到現在多久時間啊"},{"start":5524.065,"end":5542.329,"text":"我們5月14接那11月8號文件才齊備11月8號就我們之前講你說一直請他們在補資料所以5月份的時候接11月8號就這個月11月8號終於終於他是完成的文件齊備那目前你們在審議當中你們開過了4次的公聽會對不對審議就是齊備之前我們就已經入選了對4次的公聽會就從5月接案嘛是"},{"start":5552.952,"end":5559.334,"text":"你公聽會開了幾場?我們全省有開了4場因為還有書面徵詢這個單位會不會再開公聽會?不會再開公聽會就4場公聽會我們一步一步嘛那接下來下個禮拜你有一個閉門會議外面所謂的閉門會議也就是你這個座談會據聞只有要求平台業者來而且是不公開的是不是如此?"},{"start":5580.6,"end":5581.561,"text":"有這回事嗎?什麼時候開?下個禮拜什麼時候開?12月4號12月4號開座談會這樣的名稱對嗎?座談會"},{"start":5602.795,"end":5629.643,"text":"閉門座談會有沒有公平性不公平的這個立場沒有不公平的問題再請教參與的人是誰呢參與的這一次是有學者還有專家還有可能的這個各機關跨部門的機關還有可能在平台業務有競爭的人平台業務有競爭的所以重點是在這裡嗎"},{"start":5632.194,"end":5651.669,"text":"這兩家會不會邀請去?這兩家不會不行嘛 對不對好那所以這樣的一個為什麼要說不公開呢?其實不是不公開我們公開的邀請的對象邀請的對象在這個各地的你剛才說明了所以不是不公開而且也不是閉門會議"},{"start":5654.239,"end":5678.25,"text":"是嗎 可以這麼解讀嗎那這件事情是可受公平就是可受公平所以並不是我願意給你說明的機會並不是閉門會議是不是現在外界有說下個禮拜要開一個閉門會議喔是不是委員我舉個例子請告訴我針對主席的針對本席的提問下個禮拜12月4號是不是閉門會議不是一個秘密的會議不是一個秘密會議還好"},{"start":5680.931,"end":5697.845,"text":"因為本期也希望公平會應該要站在最重要的原則是公平的那本期再請教這個案子從5月份接案11月8號齊備你們在這段時間也努力辛苦那也開了4次的公聽會下個禮拜12月10號你也準備要開這個講座談會也不是應該是準備要開會議成如剛剛所說的12月10號那請問什麼時候會給社會大眾一個一個"},{"start":5710.555,"end":5715.337,"text":"請針對本席的提問請針對本席的提問我們已經跳動到下一趴了啦請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":5736.224,"end":5738.986,"text":"下個月的12月19號會作出決定本席具體建議因為合併之後市佔率大概八成本席也幾次跟你表明本席的立場因為外送這個市場失去了競爭的一個平衡點那讓消費者會無從選擇"},{"start":5761.619,"end":5778.67,"text":"生怕會從而壟斷全世界各地很多的國家是拒絕的當然我方有我方的立場所以我們仍舊希望在勞工跟消費者的權益那你公平會必須要善盡機關之責對不對這是應該的所以這個方向如果說您回答本席這是應該的應該本席可以知道12月19號大概的方向就是以勞工的權利我們外送"},{"start":5791.579,"end":5792.54,"text":"12月19日是一個期限,不要的時候可以延長。"},{"start":5815.755,"end":5828.58,"text":"必要的那你認為會不會延長我想這個要看我們進入委員會討論那本席要請教在你明年你退休之前你是明年1月16號1月31號會不會在你1月30法定12月19必要的延長我努力在這個盡快的時間去處理好本席就是希望在你的任內務必完成達成成功好吧"},{"start":5844.825,"end":5848.57,"text":"這也是在你的任內一個最重要的一個基準點啊還是要看委員會討論的情形所以你朝這個方向嘛也就是希望在你的任內完成這一項的結果我努力試試看努力齁好那接下來本席要請問公平會"},{"start":5862.566,"end":5877.831,"text":"公平問題不公平競爭行為調查處理以及多層次成銷的部分你編列了226萬9千當然比去年我們來做一個比較因為這一個問題也充斥著社會的一個不安所以在108年你是24件"},{"start":5880.492,"end":5905.453,"text":"到了去年統計是71件今年應該會更多因為社會整個經濟產業生活的一個多元性社會更多所以你編列到了這個預算但是你只有比去年113年多了多少19000塊我覺得蠻離譜的你的案件一直在增加當然我們立法委員你們預算送到這裡我們沒有辦法幫你加預算"},{"start":5906.914,"end":5926.08,"text":"但是你們在編列的時候你是第三公正單位啊你看到社會的面向是必須的是需要的是必要的阿你做徵價一萬九你是表示什麼不需要做你表示你的成效不錯你光光從21件到71件到今年我看的破百"},{"start":5926.88,"end":5947.735,"text":"那為什麼會如此的便利預算本席覺得很納悶這第一個喔所以本席要請教不動產的業者呢虛有不實以及引人錯誤廣告行為平仁對不對那你也也也也成立了幾個案子喔但是不動產的經貿交道這個這個交友非常的龐大你要如何的加強查處"},{"start":5949.156,"end":5971.957,"text":"這一個違反的行為以維護整個消費者在購屋的一個權利因為本席認為如果建商他不他不會因為貴人尿出塞影響的整個層面你要讓消費者安心大家可以成為加成的一個經濟市場購屋市場的一個穩定性跟安全性這才是我們要的嘛對不對是"},{"start":5973.178,"end":6000.332,"text":"所以這個部分要怎麼加強呢我想我們對這個不動檔的查緝我們有這個網路監控或者是329檔期等等我們都有專人在關注如果有不實的情形當然是你的職責要做嘛所以本席就告訴你社會面向需要的是這樣子你增加一個一萬九千塊哇我們看預算都看得很詳細耶我想如果能夠得到立法院的支持我們將來在編預算上面可以再做一些調整那這"},{"start":6001.533,"end":6020.612,"text":"立法院已經告訴你不夠是你自己編列的你怎麼不檢討你自己把責任推給立法院呢 對不對所以你們在編列預算的時候請謹慎之啊社會面向需要的請謹慎之最後一分鐘發主席來公平會在110請你把剛剛你的經濟方案給本席書面資料給本席"},{"start":6024.796,"end":6053.603,"text":"那114年你的資訊業務跟經濟分析的這個資料裡頭你編列了545萬7千元你比113年度是增加9萬8所以本席要告訴你從109年你每一年被檢舉的案件平均是超過了1850件但是你沒有結案的占你審議比的比例是110年了是5.68但是去年是7.64所以是增加的"},{"start":6054.803,"end":6058.166,"text":"總未結案的案件在110年雖然降到7.66110年但是馬上又升上來111跟112再升到9.25那這顯示什麼你的案件辦案結的辦結的情況"},{"start":6070.575,"end":6078.401,"text":"是有很大的改善空間因為它不斷的在增加所以本席認為呢人民花了這麼多的納稅錢我們希望做整個產業資訊的系統你應該要去加強而且你要優化"},{"start":6086.687,"end":6093.412,"text":"你執行的品質啊你怎麼可能說你這慰藉的案子越來越增加那怎麼對呢你是人民的靠山啊第三公正單位中立單位這是我們非常敬佩的你怎麼慰藉的越來越多呢那怎麼辦"},{"start":6104.224,"end":6104.244,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":6124.992,"end":6147.742,"text":"第一個政府當社會面向有所調整的時候政府應該要與時進進精準方案這才是我要本席要聽的答案好不好你把你為什麼慰藉一直增加是怠惰嗎本席本來不應當也不願意講出這個話但是既然你都推給社會面向我就要請你把你的經濟方案拿出來好不好"},{"start":6149.892,"end":6150.132,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":6178.77,"end":6204.703,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請主委請你主委委員長主委好根據114年度公平會的預算這個罰金、罰員的這個本年度的預算數跟上年度的預算數這個是一樣"},{"start":6206.389,"end":6211.872,"text":"如果我們看這個前年度的結算數只有2451萬這個是前年度的112年度的結算數所以如果這個結算數跟當時的112年度的預算數有多少的落差"},{"start":6234.833,"end":6263.968,"text":"我想這個是有落差那跟委員為什麼會有落差因為我們每一個處罰當事人會去訴訟那我們必須要等到訴訟官司打贏了這個當事人繳錢之後才能入庫所以這個預算跟決算這中間會有落差好我們看這個這個你們在10月7號答覆本席因為有質詢你們有答覆本席的部分"},{"start":6265.905,"end":6288.213,"text":"這個是第一個案這個罰了這個兩千五百萬第二個案罰了一千一百萬這個是已經入庫了嗎還是還沒有這有一件還在訴訟當中還在訴訟所以你們罰他之後他提起他會提起訴訟目前都在訴訟中會先從訴願嗎"},{"start":6292.528,"end":6321.116,"text":"提行政訴訟,直接向行政法院提訴訟提行政訴訟,不先從訴院開始,訴院再訴院我直接就行政訴訟所以這個部分是會有時間的落差所以這個部分因為還是要請公平會積極的來去處理因為這個都是需要你這邊做好處理人民才不會受害"},{"start":6323.476,"end":6350.957,"text":"好我們看這個你的預算書出國的部分這個前年度結算數只有417萬這個你們原來就編這麼少嗎還是112年度會參考上一年度大概都是這些數字上下但是這個今年度跟明年度高很多"},{"start":6351.977,"end":6376.565,"text":"比這個112年度的決算數高很多你們再順便說明好了我們順便再跟您說明有一些偵檢這個小事情但是我是想不需要佔這個很多的紙張了這個非本會主管業務這個主決議那些可以不用列了"},{"start":6377.743,"end":6406.633,"text":"不然要列很多我只是列幾個部分要審紙張好這裡面這個114年度的預算書裡面提到這個113年度的這個一些立法院的決議這裡面要特別我們要去透過這樣的一個決議然後你們的辦理情形"},{"start":6407.806,"end":6433.177,"text":"然後我之前也一再的強調相關的這些因為網路越來越發達的情況之下網路越來越發達然後相關的這些網路詐騙也就利用這樣的一個機制然後很多的這個人民就受害所以這個部分是我一再"},{"start":6434.417,"end":6461.251,"text":"的希望那個我們公平會你在這個第一線因為涉及到雖然我們已經有這個打詐釋法但是你如果一直要到後面的形式判決還不如意為防範對不對事先防範而事先防範除了讓人民知道要小心不要被詐騙之外"},{"start":6462.898,"end":6484.813,"text":"更重要的公平會去查查這些網路的這些不實的無論是不實的廣告或是不實的類似像剛才我舉的那個案例去你們罰了嘛對不對類似像這樣的就是要去加強所以有時候"},{"start":6486.138,"end":6512.08,"text":"有說是因為我們的法律趕不上網路的或是詐騙的多元所以必須要去修法這裡面你也提了你們修了但是只是修了原則只是修了你們公平交易法相關的這些行政規則那有沒有需要修到公平交易法"},{"start":6514.571,"end":6541.597,"text":"我想剛剛委員關心的這些現象其實是在執行方面的問題所以首先我們是透過相關的這個執法去修訂那當然我們的網路監控我們有專案的這個網路監控做這些處理所以這個因為你的有一計畫最後一段的一計畫而後將持續推動公平交易法修法是"},{"start":6542.498,"end":6570.877,"text":"因為這個部分是這樣當然因為在打詐釋法的時候並沒有提到你們的法啦是都是其他的法但是我一直在強調前面的一個因為不管是警察那個都是後端的或是尤其是法官那個那個都是後端的所以這個部分要請這個公平會持續的來加強該修法的就修法行政規則能夠透過行政規則的當然就是自己當然"},{"start":6572.133,"end":6575.656,"text":"請張家俊委員質詢主席早安我想請主委請你主委"},{"start":6603.041,"end":6628.256,"text":"委員早主委早那本席在翻閱這個預算書的時候有注意到公平會114年的預算案罰款與賠償收入編列了1億1895萬4千元而且好多年都是相差不遠的數字主委公平會每年的這個罰款達成率有多少"},{"start":6629.335,"end":6654.662,"text":"我們每年的罰款如果以今年到10月為止我們開出去的罰款經驗是1億5千多是嗎?但是你們當所以你們有1億5千多那你為什麼每一年開每一年開罰的情形都不太一樣那如果以今年到現在開出去處分的這個罰款是那你們收入也已經有1億5千多了嗎那因為因為當事人會提起行政訴訟"},{"start":6655.982,"end":6666.452,"text":"等到官司打贏確定了才能夠入帳如果議務主席目前收到的這些資料過去5年你平均你編的預算達標率"},{"start":6671.109,"end":6671.129,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6687.128,"end":6687.248,"text":"開除區的罰款"},{"start":6705.428,"end":6717.138,"text":"會因為每年發的多少會有不一樣但是就是說收的是收繳率是九成以上九十九趴我現在目前看到的你的達成率只有三成欸所以我的意思是說這對民眾"},{"start":6723.463,"end":6737.413,"text":"他的觀感是有差距的明明有那麼多不公平的事情結果你的罰款的達成率這麼的低這是因為有時候官司一打打個五六年七八年更久所以你要做一個更詳細的報告你不可以給我們這種資料嘛你有沒有覺得你們給這個資料是不完全揭露是不是那你給這個資料就是錯的啦你們為什麼會提供錯誤的資料呢"},{"start":6751.943,"end":6778.86,"text":"應該是說決算數啦我們決算數是要引入的你們應該要把這些都寫清楚而不是告訴我們這達成率這麼低都已經不能看每年還變這樣合理嗎我們會後給委員比較詳細的說明是那當然本席同意說開罰是手段不是目的但你們每年開罰1億多然後達成率兩三成就是代表你們"},{"start":6780.117,"end":6786.672,"text":"沒有 就沒有在做嘛 眼高手低嘛 主委請問預計你明年的達成率是多少"},{"start":6788.271,"end":6798.699,"text":"我想這要看行政訴訟官司的結果但是我們這個處分一罰下去錢都有進來那你錢進來你上面沒有顯示啊你的資料亂寫啊你資料為什麼會提供這樣的資料我接下來再問你就是9月底的時候本席有向這個主委反映哦Uber的會員不管是叫車或是叫餐會員都比非會員還不優惠"},{"start":6817.964,"end":6833.501,"text":"那你就說要查啦那到現在到底有沒有正式立案調查了我們有立案調查也請當事人所以你們也已經開始立案調查了那調查的進度為何呢我想現在還在調查當中大概你們預計什麼時候能夠有一個確切的答案"},{"start":6835.371,"end":6861.913,"text":"這個要看當時就是說他的陳述意見的狀況你們要積極阿全部都depend on others就你們都沒有你們都沒有責任你們也沒有想要積極作為嗎你都立案了你還想要慢慢吞吞的調查是要當事人還是要提供一些證據是阿那你要給他時間限制你要要求他呀難道你給他三個月他就慢慢寫就好你為什麼不給他三個禮拜呢"},{"start":6863.345,"end":6870.697,"text":"這件事情真的必須趕快處理因為直到現在社群平台上還有很多人發現這樣子的情況說明這絕對不是個案"},{"start":6875.748,"end":6900.426,"text":"我們辦公室同仁兩支手機一個是會員一個是非會員非會員叫車常常都比會員叫車便宜這合理嗎他平常叫大家加入會員就是說會員會比非會員還便宜那這就是不實廣告啊為什麼要花那麼多時間都還沒有辦法查證呢我想我們再查一個違法案件一方面是這個"},{"start":6902.327,"end":6910.992,"text":"在程序上是要讓被檢舉人有一個充分答辯的機會這樣我們的審查的品質是你要給他答辯的機會本席都同意但是你要積極的來查你要加速啊你要知道這個外送平台上面有多少人用嗎如果據本席的資料臺灣已經有31%的消費者都使用外送平台那這樣平均起來"},{"start":6926.48,"end":6952.756,"text":"是有700萬的用戶欸700萬人的權益你不用守護嗎就是我完全無法理解說怎麼會不積極去處理這件事情而且如果連這種基本的問題你都要慢慢吞吞支支吾吾沒有辦法給具體的答案那公平會的魄力在哪裡發言委員這一家他有要跟總部要相關資料的問題他還要跟總部調查"},{"start":6953.717,"end":6954.297,"text":"每月平均省440元顯然這個比基準跟非會員比"},{"start":6978.584,"end":6988.249,"text":"那常常是非會員比較便宜怎麼可能會省怎麼可能會比較便宜而且他這個440塊數字是哪裡算來的這難道不是不實廣告嗎是啊 那你預計什麼時候他可以說明完成盡快是什麼時候是明年嗎"},{"start":7005.695,"end":7011.747,"text":"還是什麼時候你不可能這麼多人在訂閱三餐很多人都外送你就放任他們這些會員每天被吸血嗎"},{"start":7015.902,"end":7032.354,"text":"跟委員報告我們上個月立案調查我們現在已經有請他提出說明可是因為他因為他的這個總公司的那個不是在臺灣所以他說明的是那臺灣是完全沒有資料嗎他登記在臺灣他臺灣沒有資料嗎這種自由是你們可以接受的嗎本席絕對不是針對Uber不管哪一間企業我們都是用同樣的標準來檢視希望公平會要做到"},{"start":7042.863,"end":7045.497,"text":"市場消費市場的秩序守護者"},{"start":7049.916,"end":7067.964,"text":"你覺得有做到嗎?你覺得你有做到嗎?這700萬人的權益你有守護嗎?你用這種消極的態度你要等他總部現在一秒多快啊?三秒就已經可以傳過來了你打算等多久?你打算等多久?你打算等多久?要多久?你本來你要求他多久以內要回來?"},{"start":7078.769,"end":7099.925,"text":"各位報告我們都是按照正常的程序而且他現在已經有相關的答覆但是針對答覆的內容還要跟事實做一個核對所以我們可能還要進一步所以你們是人手不足嗎還是調查動力不足是調查程序當我們調查程序當我們說 主委主委我有讓他講話嗎不好意思"},{"start":7103.084,"end":7109.714,"text":"我想跟委員說明 任何的一個設法的案例包括上次我問你苦碰 有立案調查了嗎苦碰的那個不實評論南韓都罰了34億了你有立案調查嗎委員我們要有這個"},{"start":7119.488,"end":7123.131,"text":"請主委一個禮拜提供出來因為我們這數位網路很發達請你們不要做事都不積極一直推脫拉好"},{"start":7148.666,"end":7148.706,"text":"主席"},{"start":7181.23,"end":7185.614,"text":"大家都很關注烏布爾伊跟福潘達的這個結合案"},{"start":7186.428,"end":7210.72,"text":"那想要請問主委什麼時候你們的審查會完整是不是他提出申請6個月就要轉播了他提出來如果文件齊備我們是11月8號文件已經齊備了照我們的法律規定是30天之內公平會要做出決定工作日30天的工作日要做出決定那必要的時候可以再延長90個工作日"},{"start":7212.644,"end":7228.777,"text":"90個60天的工作日60個所以總共就是90天他是12月19如果算的話12月19是30天的審查期間到30天的審查期間到那所以代表說還有兩個月是不是"},{"start":7229.517,"end":7233.68,"text":"12月19再加兩個月如果委員會有決議要再延長的話就再延長60個工作天應該是到3月21號"},{"start":7244.848,"end":7268.281,"text":"最長到3月21號3月21號那有沒有辦法在這個任期內你這個任期內我盡量努力但是要看委員會你這個任期是1月31嘛是不是那有沒有辦法在你這個任期內我盡量努力朝這個方向但是還要看委員會對本案討論的情形是什麼樣才能夠確定對如果"},{"start":7269.821,"end":7295.518,"text":"這個結合案就是如同你剛才所說的他所有的資料都不在臺灣那這樣子怎麼樣子叫他立即的提供審查藉由這樣子因為剛才我們提到了對於Uber Eats這個平台的非常多的資料不管是他的行銷的就是方案也好我想請問主委你有沒有用過"},{"start":7297.233,"end":7320.499,"text":"你有沒有用過這個APP?有,我有用過這個APP其實我也覺得在使用上面我看到了相關的民眾使用的就是說在點餐後或者是要去用這個平台其實在裡面有非常多的設計是你沒有辦法立即去的例如"},{"start":7320.999,"end":7349.713,"text":"你可能叫了以後沒有發現錯誤或者什麼的要申訴的時候都有相關非常多的不便利處那如果這個平台的管理者不在台灣的時候未來連Uber Eats跟Foodpanda兩個結併結合以後它成為台灣最大的外送平台以後那怎麼樣子保障消費者的權益這也是一個非常重要的審查要點是不是"},{"start":7350.313,"end":7374.859,"text":"我想在整個結合案件我們最主要是看對競爭秩序的影響譬如說市場集中度的改變那譬如說有沒有這個因為市場集中的有沒有這個抬高價格的能力會不會跟其他業者有聯合的情形當然還有包括餐廳消費者將來跟他議價談判的能力這一些我們都會一起考量"},{"start":7375.539,"end":7390.511,"text":"對 如果他的管理單位不在臺灣的時候他的管理單位不在臺灣的時候我們臺灣的所有的消費者我們臺灣所有的就是外送員怎麼樣子來透過"},{"start":7391.872,"end":7417.754,"text":"就是說跟這個管理部門來談這些事情連你們要跟他要資料都這麼困難的情況下臺灣的消費者怎麼跟他談是不是他的他是外商公司但是沒有辦法豁免臺灣法律的約束所以這在我們整個過程剛才有提到說不定資料的提供會稍微慢一點但是無礙於他應該遵守我們中華民國的法律"},{"start":7418.814,"end":7446.267,"text":"對可是我是說像其實外送是及時的嘛那在這個部分我認為他們沒有辦法及時在處理這個所有消費者的權利以及外送員的權利這個部分你一定要去處理嘛是不是在這個結合案的審查的時候你就要提出來嘛那才能會讓大家知道公平會有在保護我們台灣消費者的權益啊是不是"},{"start":7446.587,"end":7457.102,"text":"這些都有請這個結合雙方提出說明那我們會中整所有的不管是利害關係人或是結合事業的所有的這個資料會通盤來考量"},{"start":7459.239,"end":7482.049,"text":"為什麼你講話那麼保守啊你都沒有行使你作為主委的這個你怎麼講話那麼保守啊林美珠因為我們是委員會制每一位委員本於他的專業獨立行使職權所以這個案子的判斷還是要在委員會裡面討論可是你必須要把這些消費者的意見帶回去嘛這些意見一定會帶進去"},{"start":7483.67,"end":7504.21,"text":"這些意見一定會帶進去嗎?因為它的管理方就在香港然後它的平台我們都透過這個平台那在即時的反映這些消費者的意見以及外送員在反映勞工的權益的時候怎麼樣保障?是不是?是 這個都會一起調調量"},{"start":7505.211,"end":7534.35,"text":"怎麼樣子加速他提供資料的時間以及他回應的時間嗎不能再以他的外送管理部門在國外不在台灣這樣子的情況來回就是說來反映說他的延遲性的提供資料嗎是不是基本上我們會權衡他主張的理由他這個主張的期限是不是這個適合那當然如果期限到沒有補正我們也有其他的措施可以處理"},{"start":7535.03,"end":7554.755,"text":"還有我再一個問題就是目前一夜市的廣告的確發生了是不是有逐年增加的就是說有關於詐騙的是相關的透過平台有這個詐騙廣告的行為現在看起來是相當的是不是有逐年增加"},{"start":7555.675,"end":7573.129,"text":"那這個部分依照你們是不是還依照通傳會的這個網際網路內容管理基本規範及分工原則來分工基本上政府如果有一些跨部會要合作的都會照這個分工來做還是按照那個分工是不是"},{"start":7574.169,"end":7590.628,"text":"對於這個網路上的監控我們也有我們注重比較著重在不實廣告如果發現有詐騙的行為我們會以夜市的廣告是屬於你們還是屬於哪一個我們要看廣告的內容如果他這個廣告有不實廣告的情形公平會會主動監控去處理"},{"start":7593.03,"end":7615.837,"text":"所以只要是一頁式的廣告只要是不實廣告就是你們公平會會主動去查核是不是不分內容是不是要看它廣告的內容如果它是要那當然這要到衛福部去處理如果它是金融投資等等那就到金管會去所以要看它廣告的產品的屬性來判斷由何機關來處理"},{"start":7618.078,"end":7644.84,"text":"那一般性的沒有特別法去主管的這些商品的廣告如果有不實公平會會處理所以除了其他單位業管的就是按照這個NCC這個辦法處理嘛就是其他單位業管以外的所有都是公平會來處理是不是可以這麼說那希望公平會積極辦理好不好是這個一夜市的廣告影響的所有很多民眾被詐騙"},{"start":7646.281,"end":7670.982,"text":"是不是你們應該積極範圍?我跟委員說明齁 如果是詐騙 那已經涉及到刑事責任了齁 如果是一般商品服務的不實廣告沒有特別的目的事業主管機關管理 公平會會處理但是它如果涉及到刑事案件 譬如說詐欺當然 那你就要移送嘛 這個我們就會處理對 我是說你要趕快積極處理嘛你要先初步了解 不然你怎麼移送 是不是 好 謝謝"},{"start":7686.308,"end":7710.163,"text":"我們現在請呂玉玲召委巡打謝謝主席請你主委請你主委你好主委全國的民眾都非常關心Uber Eats Fupenda的合併案件"},{"start":7710.902,"end":7734.968,"text":"因為他們合併了就會是個大怪獸為什麼因為他們的市佔率是80%以上他是在全台灣第一第二位第一跟第二合併起來會有什麼樣情形就會濫用限制競爭的機率就會非常的擴大這個篇幅對不對所以"},{"start":7735.973,"end":7750.593,"text":"早上每位委員都為了民眾發聲把這些事情一定要透明公開公正的披露出來給大眾知道而且在這個外送平台上面不只是外送人員還有"},{"start":7752.472,"end":7776.218,"text":"外送員還有消費者跟店家他們的環環相扣關係著整個店家的成本跟外送員的薪水會不會受到這整個合併之後會讓他們的薪資讓他們的抽成讓他們的整個相關的事情一再的發生的是壓榨勞工"},{"start":7778.84,"end":7796.611,"text":"這是我們關心的所以在5月份合併案件送件之後你們就開始在審查拖到11月8號才在11月4號公佈正式收件在這6個月的當中裡面你們就有審查了"},{"start":7797.191,"end":7804.078,"text":"為什麼因為你們要求補件你沒有看所有資料你如何要求補件你已經要他補件了6個月的時間相當充足補件一定是非常的完備所以11月18號"},{"start":7812.987,"end":7827.177,"text":"正式受理之後如果一個月沒有受理完成是12月19號如果沒有再追加到60天90天他的最後期限是2月19號但是在你的報告裡面要到3月份好就給你們緩衝到3月份"},{"start":7831.55,"end":7848.917,"text":"但是本席要講說如果你們是積極負責的態度來審理這些案件的話和平案件你必須要在12月底以前就要完成我也知道是委員制委員制的委員在所有審查當中看到所有關鍵的問題店家要付費的外送員要薪資的部分跟這個所有的時間的部分"},{"start":7858.454,"end":7880.181,"text":"這些都是大家的關心包括所有審查委員他們也有叫過外送所以主委我們希望是你要擔當要負責在這審理案件裡面你們雖然開了4次的這個公聽會但是有很多的我相信外送員有參加嗎店家有參加嗎"},{"start":7884.192,"end":7912.695,"text":"這都是我們要積極來努力的最後你在下個月會開一場閉門式的會議我不希望叫做閉門式希望說是座談會討論所有的正節點讓所有各方都能夠受到最好的保護尤其是這兩家他們雖然說是外國公司不受到我們台灣的法律的限制但是"},{"start":7914.076,"end":7916.552,"text":"我們要他遵從我們的法律你剛剛才說完"},{"start":7918.68,"end":7944.823,"text":"不受本國法律限制但是他會尊重尊照我剛說他還是要受我們的法律限制啊所以啊我們的法律限制他就要限制他他符合所有的公平跟所有的法規所以你剛剛有這樣講啊我剛才提到說不管是本國公司或是外國公司他都要遵守我們的法律遵守那可不可以依法辦理"},{"start":7946.355,"end":7963.27,"text":"當然依法辦理所謂我們的法律還是可以限制他的他不是尊重要去符合去針對我們的法律去執行我們的法律如果不允許結合就是不允許結合所以還是要看我們審查的結果都是要照我們的法律來是"},{"start":7964.451,"end":7989.479,"text":"主委你早上回答每個委員都一樣的回答方式每個委員一再苦口婆心給你給你建議就希望你要注重注意這些問題你身為主委你就是我擔當委員會委員制我們都了解但是我相信所有的委員都要聽到我們大眾的聲音好不好好那我們希望年底就送出來你不要說委員制了"},{"start":7990.339,"end":8015.821,"text":"年底就把他送出來因為五月份就送件的那現在也是照法規的時間內一個月來完成如果一個月不能完成你省你的這個11月18號給你一個月的時間一個半月的時間到12月底你積極開會難道不行嗎所以我們不管如何12月底一定要有決定出來"},{"start":8017.486,"end":8041.837,"text":"再給我們個結果就是過程可以12月底討論的情形報告給我們你的決定如何報告給我們委員會好不好12月底前會跟委員報告12月底就給我們委員會報告那這個事情我希望你積極努力負責那接下來12月底跟委員會報告審查的決定跟結果"},{"start":8047.28,"end":8068.968,"text":"是我們審查的進度 我知道 我進度如何告訴我們決定如何也告訴我們 好不好決定如何等委員會討論完畢之後才能 就是12月底要告訴我們啦已經給你一個半月的時間了 12月底能不能報告結果這個要看委員會決定如何告訴我們好不好 那第二個要討論的就是不時廣告"},{"start":8070.543,"end":8092.269,"text":"尤其是在我們的建案裡面房子各個建案的這個部分逐年都增加了這不實的廣告從2019年到2024年您看從三件一直到現在的累積下來53件裡面這不實的廣告買房子如果不實的話沒地方住沒有家了這多麼嚴重的問題"},{"start":8094.821,"end":8098.264,"text":"公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":8111.653,"end":8113.454,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會"},{"start":8127.778,"end":8151.107,"text":"這些都有我們法規的罰款從五萬一直到兩千五百萬如果連續再辦有五千萬但是我們看到這幾年來你的罰款這個每一個建案都是幾億幾億的建案但是你的罰款多少最多最多六十萬六十萬如果就遏止這些不實的廣告呢所以"},{"start":8152.133,"end":8156.926,"text":"主委你對這個建商的不實廣告你有什麼採發更加嚴懲的辦法我向來對建商的"},{"start":8159.929,"end":8159.969,"text":"公平會議"},{"start":8183.578,"end":8183.698,"text":"賴慧如議員"},{"start":8219.656,"end":8220.722,"text":"好 現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8260.348,"end":8264.872,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8275.555,"end":8283.363,"text":"公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":8302.386,"end":8303.49,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8317.095,"end":8324.997,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算。"},{"start":8347.102,"end":8368.778,"text":"公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金公平交易委員會主管："},{"start":8373.128,"end":8376.07,"text":"委員會主管：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":8392.25,"end":8394.672,"text":"公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":8422.577,"end":8428.161,"text":"執行率就是照規定就是你有確定就不能寫進去執行率就是預算法的規定預算法的規定可能只能去跟他發問說"},{"start":8453.377,"end":8458.022,"text":"委員會主管委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8526.948,"end":8543.324,"text":"繼續開會請賴瑞隆委員諮詢好謝謝主席請理主委請理主委"},{"start":8551.055,"end":8554.937,"text":"現在文件都齊備了,內部在整理這些資料開過會了嗎?"},{"start":8577.646,"end":8584.812,"text":"委員會還沒有開,那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣?"},{"start":8587.206,"end":8609.543,"text":"目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行到會議我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再一次參與我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成"},{"start":8610.396,"end":8626.195,"text":"會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市政力已經集中到九成這個是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對"},{"start":8627.856,"end":8650.234,"text":"所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上"},{"start":8651.339,"end":8667.464,"text":"這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考驗那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎"},{"start":8670.053,"end":8689.063,"text":"我想要到委員會裡面你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度因為我也是其中的委員那我這個討論的結果先我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平委也是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的"},{"start":8690.123,"end":8707.211,"text":"不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理"},{"start":8709.952,"end":8729.406,"text":"我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事宜而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教"},{"start":8731.655,"end":8752.843,"text":"當Uber Eats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%Uber Eats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的"},{"start":8753.863,"end":8779.742,"text":"商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生"},{"start":8781.423,"end":8795.656,"text":"我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎"},{"start":8799.454,"end":8822.271,"text":"結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢會不會過高"},{"start":8829.599,"end":8837.874,"text":"目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等都會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤算力量"},{"start":8842.543,"end":8869.049,"text":"會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎 抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不大價格決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡"},{"start":8869.989,"end":8891.027,"text":"我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送員的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎"},{"start":8893.054,"end":8913.628,"text":"所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量起來我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧"},{"start":8922.059,"end":8936.475,"text":"有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的Grab最大的齁他是63%他併購福佩恩大的時候"},{"start":8939.278,"end":8963.114,"text":"直接終止他連讓案子送都送不進來他拒絕接受63已經很高了他拒絕接受讓他超過將近到9成這樣的一個占比他完全不接受新加坡絕不接受連送案都不用送我們的公平化的態度呢我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定"},{"start":8965.308,"end":8992.202,"text":"我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎"},{"start":8993.311,"end":9016.476,"text":"我們會慎重處理這個 全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些就是包括委員包括各界關心我在提醒吶吼"},{"start":9018.854,"end":9047.022,"text":"公平會有 這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次的提醒 主委你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們有掌握 你們知道八成的民意是反對 只有一成是贊成嘛 對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見 要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案"},{"start":9049.12,"end":9050.161,"text":"主委你有收到這個喊吧?"},{"start":9050.161,"end":9057.305,"text":"有有你們知道老當部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解老當部反對你知道嗎?"},{"start":9057.305,"end":9074.534,"text":"知道我要再講了Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒Uber Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情"},{"start":9076.639,"end":9081.886,"text":"請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓"},{"start":9084.361,"end":9109.894,"text":"國家或讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉入到一些弊案是收了一些不該收的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了我們不會接受任何的所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要"},{"start":9110.974,"end":9116.296,"text":"請勿必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的一個決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民"},{"start":9132.1,"end":9149.669,"text":"對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好謝謝主委請邱志偉召委質詢"},{"start":9176.762,"end":9202.576,"text":"謝謝主席,我請公平會理事主委請理事主委這個第一個問題請教主委,就是說美國FTC,FTC就是聯邦交易委員會,就是類似我們公平會他們針對訂閱,現在大家都訂什麼實體啦,或者你訂閱什麼軟體啦,他通常都很快"},{"start":9204.079,"end":9213.27,"text":"根本不需要什麼手續,點幾下你就訂閱了那訂閱的時候一段時間他可能會沒有提醒你"},{"start":9214.266,"end":9238.203,"text":"沒有提醒你如果保持沉默,這代表說你是默認就繼續可以收費,對不對?可能這個基金也不大,大概一年可能幾千塊但是呢,對他們而言是一個很大的商業利益啦那這個美國FTC它有新的措施這個Click-to-Cancel就是說你怎麼樣去透過最簡單的方式可以跟訂閱的時候一樣容易"},{"start":9239.918,"end":9260.413,"text":"所以確保因為大家都忙有時候你訂閱之後時間到你也不記得你就不會去取消所以這個部分因為你取消的難度比訂閱的難度門檻多很多高很大所以這個美國的這個FTC收到很多的陳情"},{"start":9261.63,"end":9264.795,"text":"有關於他們消極選擇的規則這部分他們針對這個消極選擇規則已經就保護消費者立場已經很具體的就事項的這個作為"},{"start":9274.499,"end":9302.282,"text":"有保護消費者所以在這種訂閱式的這個商業模式啊已經成為這個業者的重要利益來源但對消費者是不利的因為你沉默條款沉默就代表默認所以怎麼樣讓這個交易中的不公平性啊能夠站在這個消費者這邊讓他的取消訂閱跟他的訂閱一樣的這個簡單這個公民會有沒有注意到這個問題呢"},{"start":9304.198,"end":9331.981,"text":"其實我們有注意這個問題就是說簡單講訂約容易 解約難啦就是訂約很快 解約就有很多的動作那你沒完成就一直契約就持續下去齁這個在公平交易法25條如果有期晚或顯示公平的情況是可以處理目前大部分都顯示公平啦因為你那個就你所說的訂很容易取消難 對不對這就是這個不合理的地方嘛"},{"start":9333.041,"end":9352.168,"text":"所以你要這個部分你要去有一個具體的做法你是能不能像FTC一樣然後你針對這個做一個取消點擊的這個這個相關的新的規定讓消費者一樣很簡單的能夠這個取消他的訂閱有沒有相關的做法"},{"start":9354.138,"end":9379.497,"text":"我想這部分法規是有機制在那裡那如果需要進一步去處理一些...那機制徒馬不可行啊你要有新的做法因為商業模式一直不斷的在演變所以你對新的商業模式如果有明顯偏向業者對消費者不利你就要去採取新的作為啊這部分我們可以來研議看怎樣...不是不是 可以了當然一定要研議要面對這個問題正式的問題提出解決的方案啊"},{"start":9380.31,"end":9396.313,"text":"主委 上個月之內你針對這個怎麼樣的訂閱容易解約難 這個部分你知道這個問題上個月之內提出一個解決方案 我希望你像LTC一樣能夠有相關的這個作為"},{"start":9397.506,"end":9416.652,"text":"提出具體的做法 可以嗎 可以沒有問題 三個月喔 三個月我會把時間記起來喔 你要很明確而且你要公告 而且你要看看目前現狀還有哪些這個不合理的地方 會跟委員說明我們的怎麼樣的一個做法 會後會跟委員說明另外第二個問題請教 單價 單價你現在是供過於求 對不對"},{"start":9421.823,"end":9440.75,"text":"公共維持優惠單價還是上漲代表說它的這個整個整個機制價格的機制透明度不夠也潛在有一些這個市場機制不透明之外會影響到消費者的權益這個其中暴露出這個潛在的市場不當行為針對這個問題公平委員會有沒有調查"},{"start":9445.146,"end":9467.314,"text":"我想跟委員說明這個單價的價格的決定因為在畜牧法27條有一個特別規定它有一個這個法定的產銷條性體制所以你要去跟農業部去協調啊為什麼這個供大於求這個還上漲這一部分我們有跟農委會討論過討論過這一次單價整個單價的情況而且已經上漲兩次從11月到11月已經上漲兩次了"},{"start":9472.991,"end":9499.961,"text":"要有相關的監管措施若現行的制度現行的機制沒有辦法解決這個透明度不足的問題你們就要介入一樣三個月可以嗎我會跟委員說明我們跟農委會還有我們的查處的情形今天時間過得特別快來第三個問題請教一下這個Uber Eats要合併Foodpanda這個問題我"},{"start":9501.741,"end":9517.134,"text":"大概分析下有四大隱憂第一個隱憂就是說外送員的生存危機的問題第二個隱憂你從國際購併案例的預警新加坡他有一個案子這個他否定了要收購這個"},{"start":9518.575,"end":9522.819,"text":"國際的案例可以給我們參考另外我們的抽成機制我們的抽成的比例遠高於國際的水準"},{"start":9540.692,"end":9541.973,"text":"這你是不是要檢討?"},{"start":9541.973,"end":9566.064,"text":"要檢討那你運費調漲,你現在單一模式要擴展到這個多重的計費模式等待費也好,手承費也好,驗證費等等也好這四大問題我會用書面質詢給你那麻煩你針對我書面質詢資料給我明確的一個答覆時間掌握非常精準稍微就是以身作則"},{"start":9572.322,"end":9589.111,"text":"請侯孟楷委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請我們公平會理主委請理主委"},{"start":9596.292,"end":9619.722,"text":"李主委您好我們來確認一下現在外界有關心有幾個比較大型的一個併購或者是說合併的一個案件包括一個是新興併那新興併您這邊有提到是說最晚1月24號會出爐結果是不是時間是1月24號那有可能也有人講是說會不會有在委員會在討論的時候會再請這個相關的人員來到場說明對不對"},{"start":9625.925,"end":9638.657,"text":"我們程序上如果案情有需要的話會請當事人來陳述意見那一般來講這樣子一個重大的部分是不是都會有這個相關當事人的陳述或是意見表達重大案件會"},{"start":9639.935,"end":9659.675,"text":"會嘛齁那你這次有重申四大面向一個是說結合市場集中度的改變就是市佔率的變化以及會否是否漲價還有兩個金控合併之後有沒有簽訂不競爭協議的可能以及結合組織可降低成本是不是對於市場有產生有利的綜合效果四大面向嘛"},{"start":9661.537,"end":9681.574,"text":"對 其實本席這樣歸納起來還是一樣就是說對於消費者來講有沒有有利的效果以及會不會造成說市佔率改變然後還有單方面的漲價的部分就是不公平的一個情況那從這樣的一個角度來推估就所謂的這個外送平台也有現在的合併是不是也是以這四大面向來做一個討論的方向"},{"start":9682.335,"end":9704.423,"text":"主要是這些也是這樣的方向嗎?對不對?好那本席過去到現在也一直都很關心所謂外送平台的一個競爭就尤其是現在合併那我們特別重視的是什麼?重視的是消費者的權益以及商家是不是會因為這樣而被迫產生更高的成本還有外送員的一個權益以及最後不能造成說所謂的聯合壟斷的一個漲價的一個情勢那"},{"start":9707.464,"end":9733.573,"text":"在現在兩大平台業者已經送案的情況未來會不會也找兩大平台業者來去做陳述意見應該會請 我們看會不會怎麼討論如果這個案情重大有需要請當事人陳述意見就會做這個決定所以什麼時候 因為你現在這個兩大平台已經送件了嘛那未來是30天到90天裡面會做審查結果你是不是上午有講是說不會拖延"},{"start":9734.794,"end":9762.683,"text":"我盡量不會拖延但是還是要看委員會討論提出的意見是不是有要再處理的這項事項是但是因為外界那我可不可以請教一下這一點是本職業好奇或是說想了解的因為既然外送平台兩大業者他們我們現在都已經提出呼籲那兩大平台業者有沒有做什麼樣的一些不管是溝通或是事前的一些這來詢問或是說想要促成這樣的一個"},{"start":9763.744,"end":9777.038,"text":"合併的一個做法在這段時間裡面其實從3月這個新聞就出來了嘛那現在一直到11月嘛那這中間過程裡面不管是我們要求他申請或是說這個過程裡面他們有沒有做什麼樣的溝通"},{"start":9778.362,"end":9798.747,"text":"是針對外界大家提出來這些議題這些疑慮他們所先做的事宜或是說他們提出的這個審查裡面他們所提出的一些方案的改進這個結合按社會大眾的關切產生的競爭疑慮如何他有對我們做說明這個我們也必須要請他說明如何去回應這些競爭的議題"},{"start":9800.447,"end":9813.858,"text":"是,所以他的申請書裡面都有完整的講到我們過去到現在質詢的這些疑慮嗎?是不是外界關切的這些議題有請他說明,他也有說明那目前你看到的狀況是否完整?"},{"start":9814.738,"end":9838.394,"text":"目前需要提供的資料已經齊備了那所以這個結合方還有利害關係人方各界的意見這些意見整合之後我們也包括要跟跨機關跟學者專家利害關係人在進一步這個聽取這些意見之後我們就進入委員會的討論所以我現在想請教的是說到底我們什麼時間點能夠有一個結果出來"},{"start":9841.612,"end":9863.623,"text":"因為你剛剛本席其實問的你回答也相對是都是推給說委員會的審查但是我們現在想要了解說到底這個申請人他會不會被要求我們再來進一步的說明你也不一定確定那申請的結果審查的期限到什麼時候也不一定確定這個需要委員會討論我才能夠跟各位說明"},{"start":9865.563,"end":9881.142,"text":"但是外界的疑慮到底我們能不能說確實的把關我想外界的疑慮我們一定會作為在討論的時候一個很重要的參考因素但是因為我們是委員會是我現在不適合談會或不會是不是"},{"start":9882.083,"end":9898.471,"text":"好本席還是強調啊就說主委我想你也很了解說為什麼我們一而再再而三在這個部分來要求公民會要做到這個嚴格的把關以及參考國際上的案例就是因為台灣不能變成一個實驗的舞台啊"},{"start":9899.051,"end":9920.304,"text":"尤其是這關心到的是2350萬人就是說不管是我們消費者權利不管是外送員的權利不管是餐餐飲業者的一個權益其實這一些都是方方面面那如果說我們在這個審查的過程裡面要嚴謹的把關以及參考國外的一些相關案例尤其是已經有看到很多的一個部分是韓國也好"},{"start":9921.204,"end":9941.89,"text":"歐美國家也好他的合併的狀況其實現在好像目前為止還沒有市佔率高了之後而對社會有正向評價的例子是不是這樣子這些國外的經驗還有國內我們的各種輿情各界利害關係的反應我們其實都掌握了好所以主委"},{"start":9945.56,"end":9974.773,"text":"那這樣子真的還是要站在我們嚴格把關的立場我再次強調就是說過去到現在我們一直希望是能夠在這個過程裡面甚至你如果說真的要審查的過程裡面一定也要push我們所謂的外送平台服務法的這個吹聲啊我想這雖然公平會不是這個主管機關但是能夠完善法令的一個完整讓國內的這個外送制度"},{"start":9975.553,"end":9983.178,"text":"即便沒有合併外送制度也應該健全更加落實這一點我們可不可以一起來努力推動好不好謝謝請王宏威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請我們李主委請李主委"},{"start":10009.568,"end":10032.758,"text":"委員好來主委延續剛才黃孟楷委員的話題請問一下按照規定就是Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的合併案應該在最後期限準薄期限是幾月幾號12月19號必要的時候可以延長好12月19號必要時延長那一延長的話最長可以到明年的3月對不對3月21號3月的時候主委還在認上嗎不一定"},{"start":10046.149,"end":10061.158,"text":"以這一件的合併案到目前為止我們所關心的三大面向的權益包含消費者包含外送員包含商家"},{"start":10062.603,"end":10070.42,"text":"這三方到目前為止我們還沒看到哪一方同意合併新人同意覺得好棒棒"},{"start":10071.653,"end":10092.515,"text":"大部分你可以看到民調也好或者說法也好都是反對這個合併案所以在這邊剛才主委說公平會是委員制沒有錯我們也尊重委員會的決議但是竟然這個期限是在12月19號以現在的方方面面的"},{"start":10093.436,"end":10110.831,"text":"反應來說公平會都沒有任何的理由再做延期我直接說公平會不要再用任何的理由來做延期我講了因為現在你們正好換屆主委還有其他應該還有幾位委員都是在1月31號"},{"start":10112.685,"end":10135.29,"text":"所以你們應該在12月19號做成決議準博的決議別說其實在立法院裡面包含榮泰院長還有現在下台的何培山部長因為他是勞動部都已經表示反對的意思當然他們還是要去尊重公平會最後的決議所以我在這邊直接說應該做的決定"},{"start":10139.489,"end":10160.539,"text":"這個是顯而易見的沒有看到哪一方面覺得因此而得利可能都會因此而受害所以公平會應該本於職權在12月19號的到期之前應該做出準博的決定不要再用任何理由來延長我覺得如果再有任何理由延長"},{"start":10161.579,"end":10182.367,"text":"那麼這個因為可能跟你們的利益自己本身結合啊因為你們是到1月底結束不要用這個方式來綁架說我們今天未來在立法院整個審核人士一定要配合這個案子因為這個案子社會矚目還有直接跟主委講如果我們公平會不在12月19號法定的期限做出準博的話"},{"start":10192.247,"end":10214.542,"text":"那對不起阿包含您的人事案我們都會覺得你們這樣做的再給他延長好奇怪喔那對不起本來這次我看到公平會所有的人事因為有一一大本嘛其實我覺得看起來因為你們很多還是在繼續的這個續任而且也大部分都有一定的專長"},{"start":10216.323,"end":10238.305,"text":"可是如果在這個案子裡面違反社會期待違反現在所有各面相所呈現出來大家擔心它的副作用那對不起你們新人事案我們就愛難同意了跟委員說明我們審查任何一個案件不會有綁架其他"},{"start":10239.426,"end":10241.327,"text":"委員會看了案情之後覺得有沒有必要"},{"start":10257.692,"end":10278.237,"text":"我現在看不出任何的必要性呢?有什麼必要性呢?我們所有的面向都已經看到了不管是外送員事實上已經很明確表達反對之意啊消費者我真的沒看到哪一個在支持啊 對不對?"},{"start":10280.7,"end":10288.763,"text":"然後商家也認為這樣子對他的權益也沒有任何的幫助啊請問你們為什麼要延長所以我在這邊直接說當然我尊重公平會的委員的合意志但是這個案子社會各界關切而且顯而易見而你們的任期馬上就要屆滿1月31號屆滿"},{"start":10301.067,"end":10317.401,"text":"如果而且因為你們現在啊其實跟那個什麼一樣啦我知道其實公平會是跟NCC是一樣的我們也沒有去動那個相關的這個組織法因為呢你們跟NCC一樣如果新的委員沒有就任的話現任的委員可以繼續的做下去"},{"start":10318.592,"end":10337.995,"text":"但是因為公平會跟NCC不一樣啦就是我們不會針對你們的新的人事案因為NCC實在是太爛了那我覺得公平會過去也有你們自己的把關啦那我們還是會有一定的尊重但是如果這個案子到了12月19號你們還用任何理由給他延長那對不起"},{"start":10339.176,"end":10358.816,"text":"我們真的會覺得你們是用這個案子來綁架整個人事案包圍人事案跟個案的審查是兩回事公共政策的討論跟個案的審查是不同的事情我們還是要回到個案由委員獨立去審查絕對不會去綁架人事案的審查這是兩件事情"},{"start":10359.396,"end":10382.443,"text":"最好你們有這樣的認知所以我在這邊是直接要求我不會問你我直接要求12月19號法定期限法定期限我沒有讓你提前法定期限做出準博不要讓這個案子繼續造成社會各界大家的疑慮這是在這邊直接的要求也不是建議也不是詢問謝謝"},{"start":10389.499,"end":10416.57,"text":"請陳昌明委員質詢首先有請我們公平交易委員會李主委請李主委主委好主委你好主委你昨天去新的市嗎?"},{"start":10418.442,"end":10432.333,"text":"阿有去春華廟拜拜齁 齁 那個春華廟很靈就寫這樣 有沒有你老實跟我講 不要顛倒很久以前 多久以前大概年輕的時候阿 年輕談戀愛的時候"},{"start":10434.878,"end":10447.589,"text":"我會說他是全省最有名的小吃店但是我看一個新聞我感覺很奇妙新竹春花廟口17家小吃聯合漲價公平衛生違法但不法"},{"start":10451.978,"end":10467.093,"text":"我覺得你這個政策對但是我覺得你們的做法你們的想法常常會改變那個小吃裡面有一個特色有肉飯、鵝、煎蝦麵都有它是裡面聯合他們有一個好吃為什麼"},{"start":10468.254,"end":10486.282,"text":"我們價格都一樣,客人誰要去哪一家,大家自由去就不去競爭,不去在裡面整個審查混淆掉,你們要知道地方有這個特色所以去那邊,大家不會為了生意而在爭吵而是和和氣氣的"},{"start":10487.543,"end":10508.55,"text":"阿您講漲價就是聯合的行為 要燒土腳也要轉為人一個管理委員會在那邊燒料 把市場維持得乾乾淨淨清清潔潔還做老服務 阿現在水電帳什麼都漲了阿我感覺您把這個小事當作道士在辦 真的是資源運用錯了啦"},{"start":10510.222,"end":10534.978,"text":"我希望這點你們要好好想,你們是沒事情做,吃飽養養的專門做這些事情來做我看是這樣啦,改進改進,你們有很多做法,其實剛剛那個王偉講的也有道理第二個,以前你們處理一個案件,多層次的行銷"},{"start":10536.804,"end":10553.319,"text":"結果被你們公平交易會去檢調會再調查調查現在的結果都是順勢結果那家公司倒了才又再重新再起銀行都不跟他配合說以前有這樣的案件打了8年"},{"start":10554.927,"end":10574.437,"text":"讓一家公司倒閉掉阿你們完全沒有責任然後一直來拜託我為每一家每一家銀行去拜託銀行都說不肯啦這樣子來因為利潤會補但是他這個是一個社會公益的一個行為阿他現在要東山再起沒有人來"},{"start":10575.518,"end":10601.824,"text":"要去幫忙他 注意你跟我來協調一下 跟銀行叫來 你注意你們跟人家檢舉已經發生錯誤業者失敗了 要打國家賠償法又太久了好不好 我們兩個一直聯手 來拜託銀行看你能不能做得到 錯是在你們那邊 這樣沒接應 要一間公司對應我覺得我們的政府不值得一個信任"},{"start":10603.184,"end":10622.05,"text":"從常常要安排失責的事導致民間的企業倒閉已經沒辦法再重新開張遭到很多的困難我希望我們共同來解決我會特別找你一起處理第三個你有一篇文章說企業變過成為歧視將為競爭法、執法帶來挑戰"},{"start":10628.032,"end":10647.407,"text":"我來說現在電子企業台灣都是中小企業這方面你好好注意外國不要注意台灣的企業台灣的企業太小常常被外國企業所欺負尤其現在的電子產業整個情形每一個人發展不一樣"},{"start":10648.926,"end":10664.157,"text":"兵貨有時候才會大,大才跟國外有競爭。你在怕台灣的企業太大,他真的沒有獨攬的行為。每一個企業都在做,我希望先確立這樣的一個觀念好不好。再來今天最熱門的"},{"start":10665.698,"end":10689.254,"text":"就是關於Uber跟Penta那個外送平臺那我給你一個資料看一看給你深思熟慮一下考慮一下在7月18號工商時報裡面有一篇文章第一個新加坡政府態度強硬外送平臺終止合併談判"},{"start":10692.816,"end":10717.524,"text":"這個在工商時報7月18號那在沙國就是沙烏地阿拉伯火診外送平台之申請以確保市場的競爭就是不同意合併再來一個香港外送市場因為新加熱者重新有熱絡的狀況"},{"start":10719.926,"end":10742.349,"text":"那我為什麼這個給你參考剛剛王委員在談到說人事綁架這個確實是分開但是你覺得你們很獨立的在公平交易委員會在獨立審判嗎高通的案件委員通過托拉斯法案要把他罰了7億多已經裁決出來了最後"},{"start":10743.649,"end":10766.703,"text":"你們腳趾的臺灣碰到美國碰到日本碰到歐洲你們從來都沒有腳臺的人身都腰都彎下來了變成去投資投資7億7億多少台幣200多億台幣7億剛好公研院一年的預算你這樣做下去這個政府這樣做下去他有多偉大"},{"start":10770.151,"end":10772.634,"text":"臺灣的電子業打得東倒西歪大家都要聽他的你們都不敢講話所以我不敢信賴這個政府就是這樣一個應該要"},{"start":10794.347,"end":10803.531,"text":"財閥要來賠償了你們把它變成收改為去投資讓我這個政府所以關於這個外送平臺業者消費者"},{"start":10806.137,"end":10832.392,"text":"還有那個外送人工會都反對其實到這個時候其實很明顯啊外國人要求台灣很簡單你給他合併他給你企價你就給他企價尤其是澳洲尤其是美國尤其是日本的你們連屁聲都不敢放所以我們不怎麼相信看了那麼久你敢去找台灣人的麻煩外國人的麻煩你就不敢找啊"},{"start":10834.519,"end":10861.98,"text":"檢討一下好好考慮我為什麼拿高通起手有沒有我很自信我判斷你們最後會通過你們在國外的壓力下台灣從來沒有抬過指頭好啦好啦我們來等一下沒有關係啦看最後的結果就曉得啦不然你請我一餐我請你一餐嘛我對這個不信賴我是以這樣的來跟你這種是嚴重的警告"},{"start":10863.155,"end":10863.355,"text":"請蔡議委員質詢"},{"start":10894.551,"end":10908.188,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請這個李主委請李主委欸主委好"},{"start":10909.144,"end":10926.491,"text":"主委那這個針對國內彈價的問題那因為彈在今年的整年都是供過於求所以它是調降而且已經降到了歷史的一個低點那最近當然可能因為颱風的關係所以這個供過於求的狀況有比較趨緩那所以這一個彈商的協會有漲價但是這個漲價的機制公平會一直認為說"},{"start":10939.296,"end":10949.266,"text":"這一個漲價機制是不透明的所以它的漲價機制是否符合現在的一個合理的一個價格那這個公平會後來調查的結果是怎樣"},{"start":10951.092,"end":10951.352,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10973.695,"end":10989.305,"text":"有這個查處的空間那我們也有跟這個農委會做很緊密的聯繫如果有聯合的這個市政我們一定會去查處那我們有跟這個但是整個價格就是有有應該是有淡基協會"},{"start":10990.546,"end":10992.387,"text":"他們去決定嗎?"},{"start":10992.387,"end":11002.053,"text":"所以你要怎麼說他們有聯合?就畜產會跟其他的淡商還有其他的協會在做一個協調這是在畜牧法裡面規定有一個產銷協調的機制"},{"start":11004.457,"end":11024.663,"text":"是阿是阿所以可是價格還是由單一方面去決定的嗎?所以基本上你們也是說好那就基於說虛募法的規定所以這部分您就是讓他自行去決定價格那只是沒有沒有哄抬原則上你們就不介入是這個意思嗎?好那我了解齁那同樣這個問題事實上我還是要問啦齁因為"},{"start":11028.044,"end":11053.105,"text":"我們國內一直對於我們公平會那到底可以發揮什麼樣的一個效能就是說公平會如果遇到了其他部會的時候是不是公平會會相對於比較弱勢就是說都讓別的單位掛定位我們就不要去當概念會有這樣的狀況嗎也不會是就是說我們會看那個事情的本質看事情的本質主管的法規好那我就想要問了那像這一次銀行的併購案"},{"start":11054.306,"end":11072.482,"text":"非常精彩的是本來是呃台新跟中跟星光嗎對不對是那後來中信他有要非合意的非合意的併購所以他用他的呃市場上公開收購的方式那這一件事事實上公民會也有立案調查嗎"},{"start":11073.723,"end":11099.319,"text":"後來只是因為金管會就決定了中信不能使用股票加現金的方式所以他們就被迫沒辦法繼續進行這樣的一個收購但是我們知道不管是中信加新光或者台信加新光基本上他們對於國內金融業的市佔率都不會到達我們公平交易法所認為有壟斷或者是會有操控"},{"start":11102.621,"end":11104.922,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":11123.249,"end":11141.699,"text":"當然他撤了嘛對他現在是撤了所以這案就不在你身上所以我才會想跟你討論啊如果他沒撤案我還不會跟你討論欸對所以我現在要問你我們公平會到底可以介入的力道在哪裡就是說在我舉的這個例子假若沒有金管會"},{"start":11143.379,"end":11169.344,"text":"假如沒有中信撤的話如果中信硬認為說為什麼他們不可以繼續走公開收購因為他走公開收購對於股東也好對於星光金的業務的員工也好未必是最差的選擇這未必當然也沒有代表一定是最好但是很多事還沒有走到最後是不知道的但是很明顯這件事叫金管會單炸起來"},{"start":11171.804,"end":11173.265,"text":"如果站在公平會的立場那這個真的符合你們認為的公平交易嗎?"},{"start":11179.712,"end":11208.397,"text":"第一個就是說金管會他是金融的主管機關他做出什麼樣的這個決策這部分在金管會應該有他的這個考量那如果以中信他來向公民會申報而且沒有撤回的話我們還是回到我們一般結合審查的原則照我們的這個競爭秩序應該要處理的問題去審查你們還是繼續審查你們的競爭秩序嗎對啊所以所以這個就是我說的嘛我不希望"},{"start":11209.257,"end":11237.862,"text":"公平會因為我剛剛講了兩個議題一個是你們會尊重整個畜牧法的規定那另外一個你們要尊重因為公平會是整個金融界的這個金管會才是金融界的他的主管機關所以他們有他們的審查的標準但是在我們外人這樣看起來就覺得好像這個好像不是很公平的交易因為政府的手涉入太深那既然政府的手有涉入"},{"start":11238.522,"end":11256.522,"text":"的話這個是公平會應該要關心的嗎?如果中信金沒有撤案繼續申報這個結合我們還是照我們原來的這個結合程序繼續審查當然啦那是當然可是那是一個假設的狀況因為這件事已經不存在了好那第二個我再問最後一個問題齁"},{"start":11257.83,"end":11269.797,"text":"就是說因為這一次我們看到事實上很多企業在棒球的時候他們都會在網路上去貼說如果我們台灣打到四強打到二強打贏日本我們就會有怎樣的註銷活動"},{"start":11277.242,"end":11305.762,"text":"但是這樣的促銷活動就是屬於網路的一個廣告或者是網路要去增加它的點擊率的但是也隨著越打越好它的促銷活動就越來越縮起來說哇一開始講得太滿了結果中華隊打到好到我們大家都出乎我們意料的好的時候哇結果很多這樣的一個廣告都倒縮那這樣的話會不會涉及到的違反公民法就是說他們用虛偽不實或引人錯誤的表示或表證"},{"start":11307.162,"end":11307.842,"text":"蘇清泉委員不在,請願言之委員質詢。"},{"start":11344.926,"end":11367.666,"text":"麻煩請公平會主委,謝謝委員好主委好,想來關心一下Uber E要併購Foodpanda這個問題根據有民調的顯示有7成的外送員還有7成的商家都反對這個合併案主委你知道原因嗎我知道原因是什麼"},{"start":11369.768,"end":11386.706,"text":"這個就外送員來講他是擔心以後市場力集中的話可能跟這個平台在他們的報酬優惠各方面在談判的條件上處於一個更不平等的這個情況那對店家而言店家擔心他將來抽成比例會提高嘛談判的力量不對等"},{"start":11387.006,"end":11412.899,"text":"所以其實主委你都知道這個狀況了其實過去也有非常多店家來跟我們反映就是說在跟平台談判的時候其實居於非常弱勢所以平台對他們抽成有的到38%四成都有他們賺的利潤全部被平台抽走但是不加入也不行啊因為這平台很大大家已經習慣用平台訂餐而且另外一方面就是平台他的營運模式是他先跟消費者收錢嘛然後再把錢給店家"},{"start":11413.539,"end":11430.759,"text":"然後這個時候呢如果交易的過程有遇到什麼狀況責任全部都是由店家來來付啊而且申訴管道也不暢通很多的問題所以呢主委今天你在核定這個合併案的時候一定要把這些都考量進去對整個市場對消費者或對店家來講到底是"},{"start":11431.44,"end":11451.246,"text":"利益大於弊還是弊大於利我覺得是必須要注意那我知道你們合併案會考慮有沒有壟斷這是一個考量的因素那有沒有壟斷這個其實跟你怎麼計算它的母數有關如果你的母數你如果把一些什麼快遞業把郵局全部算進來的話都算在萬壽產業的話"},{"start":11452.446,"end":11453.026,"text":"市場界定是餐飲外送平台"},{"start":11471.832,"end":11496.005,"text":"譬如說Uber Eats譬如說這個Foodpanda其他我們還有其他那個Fudomo這也是外送品好那我跟你請教之前蘇巴部部長唐鳳有開發用花了100億開發一個點線面平臺叫臺灣雲市集請問一下這個平臺會列入我們的母數計算嗎沒有這個不會是為什麼他也是做點餐啊也是外送啊為什麼不列入"},{"start":11497.654,"end":11516.136,"text":"為什麼?我們的這個外送平台是有外送員有點餐等等齁那所以他在市場界定上對所以你的市場界定很模糊嘛因為我剛剛講那個台灣雲市集一樣啊他那時候也是鼓勵大家用LINE啊直接點餐啊然後第一個不用到現場排隊啊第二個一定的公里數以內也有外送啊"},{"start":11516.516,"end":11536.003,"text":"跟委員說明您剛剛提到的就是說那個分母啊如果越大這個市佔率就會越低嘛所以你是因為這個原因不把台灣雲市級算進去我們用餐飲外送平台去界定這兩家結合之後市佔率是相當高好其實我跟你講你就算把台灣雲市級算到母數也沒什麼差別啦因為沒什麼使用"},{"start":11537.003,"end":11556.258,"text":"我現在只要跟你講說如果我們要我們希望我們不要外送平台獨大我們政府已經花百億做這個平台然後都沒有人使用也是很荒謬的一件事情啦那當然這是另外一個議題啦所以那個主委你可以去關心一下這個台灣雲市集花了一百億沒有人要用到底怎麼回事啊你可以鼓勵他們"},{"start":11557.752,"end":11582.007,"text":"多一點人使用就在市場壟斷的機率就會比較小這第一件事情第二件事情在他審這個合併的過程當中你可不可以要求業者把一些社會責任加進來因為我跟你講有些偏鄉包括有時候城市的人他們可能去有些縣市去度假或去玩的時候想要叫那個外送來吃然後結果完全沒有外送"},{"start":11582.927,"end":11601.189,"text":"那以後如果說合併之後這個狀況會越來越嚴重因為他是江本求力嘛有利可圖才會去啊可是他就沒有辦法服務到全台灣但這個東西外送平台這個東西已經變成好像大家一個必需品了所以可不可以把這個問題問他就是加入社會責任他可以用補貼的方式嘛"},{"start":11602.391,"end":11616.608,"text":"讓一些外送員、店家去參與到比較偏鄉的地區然後來做這個外送的服務主委這個在你的職權有可能做到嗎我想跟委員說明一個結合案如果我們禁止那就是禁止了根本不會去結合"},{"start":11617.088,"end":11618.849,"text":"所以說你會直接禁止或同意不會有條件的如果同意又需要附條件的話才會說你必須要做什麼事做什麼事所以你現在是確定會禁止嗎"},{"start":11632.698,"end":11659.983,"text":"現在還要經過委員會的討論所以我現在討論的是說如果你要同意的狀況下你要設定一些條件要不要禁止當然以你的角度來判斷可是其實大家現在擔心你要同意那你如果同意的話你如果要同意那你要設定條件你要把剛剛大家講的疑慮那些條件把它規定清楚不要造成市場壟斷然後不要影響到消費者的權益然後甚至於說要他發揮社會責任"},{"start":11661.403,"end":11683.693,"text":"假設他做不到你就不要給他同意嘛 對不對你就給他禁止嘛 所以現在聽起來好像主委你是朝向禁止的角度嘛 我這樣解讀的錯嗎我的意思就是說 因為剛剛委員提到說要請他做哪一些事我是說如果你要同意的話 但是你直接講說不用啦 不用啦如果禁止就不談條件 如果同意就可以談條件 是嗎"},{"start":11684.974,"end":11685.074,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":11714.25,"end":11728.163,"text":"請羅明財 羅明財委員不在請何新淳何新淳 何新淳委員不在請曼玉珍 曼玉珍 曼玉珍委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":11731.295,"end":11747.176,"text":"當即發言的委員除了不在場外其餘的均已發言完畢詢答結束質詢未及答覆的部分請公平會一週內以書面答覆並複資本會各位同仁針對公平會及反托斯拉"},{"start":11748.683,"end":11769.45,"text":"管托拉斯基金預算案如有修正動議或者是相關的提案請於12月4日星期三下午5時以前送經濟委員會辦公室以立後續的會診預時不再收案討論事項所列議案詢答結束令定期繼續進行審查現在散會"},{"start":11778.163,"end":11779.448,"text":"公平交易委員會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}