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採購申訴審議委員會執行秘書張明珠謝謝還有工程技術鑑定委員會執行秘書何玉欣謝謝還有法規委員會執行秘書陳韻時謝謝資訊推動小組執行秘書沈恆光謝謝"},{"start":2016.158,"end":2029.553,"text":"中央採購機和小組執行秘書林耀幹人事室主任李聰松主計室主任孫慧"},{"start":2031.832,"end":2041.885,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會主任秘書黃文哲綜合文化處處長溫俊瑜基礎設施處處長陳春木平台事業管理處副處長黃天陽"},{"start":2051.652,"end":2064.322,"text":"電台與內容事務處處長林慧玲法律事務處處長蔡志儒網際網路傳播辦公室參事兼主任張文旭北區監理處處長蔡國棟"},{"start":2069.126,"end":2085.511,"text":"中區監理處處長黃宗祺、藍區監理處處長劉豐章、秘書事主任劉德言、人事事主任林文藝、主計事主任蔡惠娟、"},{"start":2087.032,"end":2101.605,"text":"謝謝。還有鄭豐市主任簡國興。謝謝。還有我們內政部警政署刑事警察局電信偵查大隊大隊長蔡坤宏。謝謝。還有行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員黃曉娟。謝謝。好,那個林委員。"},{"start":2117.632,"end":2145.451,"text":"首先特別跟主席解釋我們提這個案跟程序花園主要是針對NCC那我們對公共工程委員會主席所排的這些問題我們沒有意見但是對NCC的任何一個花園我們絕對有意見第一"},{"start":2146.921,"end":2174.891,"text":"現在主委跟代主委完全空檔的時候就變成沒有首長在做任何一個聽建議以及做任何政策的決定所以我們主張今天NCC他的審查預算的答詢我們認為不應該進行第一點"},{"start":2176.004,"end":2204.058,"text":"第二點NCC從來就不尊重立法院尤其交通委員會當我們成立進電視的時候連一個資料都不想給這代表什麼不忠實本委員會第二平常在調任何資料通通沒有給任何一個資料請問那只要審查預算"},{"start":2205.185,"end":2221.577,"text":"按我們就一定要多聽NCC的嗎所以我建議我建議還有第五點要解凍案我要敬請大家各位委員來支持也就是"},{"start":2222.816,"end":2251.406,"text":"不以主管還未到那做做解凍之動作所以以上誠信懇求主席來做適當的處理所以在這裡我堅持認為NCC不以報告不以打詢第五點解凍的問題不以解凍所以這以上本席也提出有這些提案敬請主席跟各位委員來做公解謝謝"},{"start":2257.184,"end":2262.426,"text":"李崑澤委員要發言我們發言時間兩分鐘謝謝謝謝趙偉各位同仁我記得憲法徵修條文第三條裡面明文規定"},{"start":2281.397,"end":2302.496,"text":"立法委員有對行政院長及各部會首長質詢之權權利的權我們不應該任意剝奪其他委員質詢的一個權利另外我們今天聽到林國成委員說審查法案今天不予報告"},{"start":2303.96,"end":2332.609,"text":"不予報告也不予審查那其實這對召委相關安排議程的權利我認為是不夠尊重另外那今天預算的解凍其實裡面也有一般行政大概是7億的預算要解凍那一般行政就是相關的"},{"start":2333.806,"end":2355.592,"text":"人事、水電等等的這些支出解不解凍也要看我們其他委員所有的一個智慧我們針對議程的進行如果今天不予報告或者是不予處理相關的預算的一個詢打"},{"start":2356.567,"end":2377.612,"text":"那在這邊我也要具體建議如果各位委員堅持己見的話我是希望大家甚至質詢是我們基本的工作也是我們的權利那不要任意的剝奪其他委員質詢的一個權利那第二也希望至少"},{"start":2378.752,"end":2393.629,"text":"如果等一下經過處理,大家還是有不同的意見,就讓NCC的這個報告就列入書面報告就可以了。這樣讓大家接不接受。以上。好,謝謝坤哲委員。那盧明哲、張偉。"},{"start":2408.547,"end":2424.793,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這次我們也有提這個相關的程序問題不過我想程序問題都以書面這個為準那也這個請各位有看到其實今天林國成委員的程序問題的提案"},{"start":2425.453,"end":2449.607,"text":"跟我們程序問題的提案可能比我們說的會更清楚一點以這個為準我們都是針對於預算解凍也就是今天的討論第四項的第五項第五項預算解凍的問題能夠反映這個部分那其他一到四項那包括了NCC預算的一個詢答我們個人提案是沒有意見"},{"start":2450.367,"end":2477.815,"text":"因為新的主委雖然沒有來但是今天沒有要處理預算讓大家這個每位委員表達對NCC的一些建言讓新的主委12月1號的時候在審查預算的時候還可以有機會問他的意見所以我今天也希望針對討論事項第五項我們今天預算解凍的這兩項能夠緩抑今天不予處理那再來"},{"start":2479.256,"end":2494.932,"text":"這個預算的整個的部分是看到NCT這三年的預算從111年的6億2到今年編的預算7億大概成長了8千多萬那現在凍結的不是7億是7千萬7千萬裡面凍結我相信目前剛剛問了"},{"start":2500.177,"end":2513.081,"text":"到今天截止的執行率是八成多一點點所以七億的預算還有充分的資金可以運用我們希望新的主委來再能夠尊重我們交通委員會我們再針對解凍案來討論以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":2519.147,"end":2542.42,"text":"謝謝盧明哲召委非常理性的說明本席在這邊說明一下排案是召委的一個權利本席在排案的時候當然也經過慎思熟慮我們有思考到我們ACC的主委王祖密也是優秀的專業的人員所以由他來答詢我覺得應該是合適的"},{"start":2545.882,"end":2560.061,"text":"大家對於這個預算解凍有問題那因為我們今天是排在第五案那如果說大家對解凍案有問題的時候是不是等我們全部詢答結束處理之後再來處理解凍案那我們現在先休息先做協商謝謝"},{"start":2565.193,"end":2576.662,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":2584.533,"end":2589.437,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":2614.094,"end":2614.361,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":2619.123,"end":2623.845,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":2645.253,"end":2649.236,"text":"對啦,暫不處理啦。氣氛弄單純一點,先暫不處理,大家就問別人吧,就算照樣詢答,沒問題。"},{"start":2673.933,"end":2681.378,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":2701.368,"end":2706.971,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":2730.841,"end":2737.065,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2750.692,"end":2756.017,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":2766.246,"end":2771.392,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":2790.507,"end":2817.841,"text":"好那我們現在繼續開會那我們呃程序問題哈就是剛剛有協商有共識我們就暫不處理那我們現在就繼續開會本日進行公共工程委員會單位預算國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算及解凍案通傳基金有限廣電基金非營業預算的審查我們現在首先請公共工程委員會主委陳主委進行預算報告那我們時間10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2827.794,"end":2840.848,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生。感謝貴委員的安排,讓金德有機會列席貴委員會向各位報告本會114年度施政重點及預算編列情形。"},{"start":2843.429,"end":2865.521,"text":"失蹤重點部分包括五個包括列管重大公共工程、健全政府採購制度、提升履約爭議調節效率、推動公共工程節能減碳、完善資訊系統在採購技術及工程管理上的應用以及114年度預算編列概要。"},{"start":2867.657,"end":2885.962,"text":"第一、列管重大公共工程方面針對每年執行預算一億元以上的工建計畫進行列管每月召開公共建設督導會報並定期查核同時落實缺失的改善追蹤強化考核"},{"start":2887.782,"end":2914.016,"text":"持續強化金職獎的評審內容新增有關移工管理以及是否違反職業安全衛生法的相關規定第二、健全政府採購制度在廣征各界對政府採購制度的意見包括拜會各技師公會團體以及外國駐台機構並收集各級政府機關的意見"},{"start":2915.745,"end":2931.261,"text":"那麼其次在徵修採購法令範本以及指引另外針對應用廠商履歷擇優太烈以維持整體工件品質適時持續推動電子化政府採購"},{"start":2934.827,"end":2963.764,"text":"關於提升禮約爭議調解效力方面目前已建制政府採購諮詢機制範圍涵蓋招標、決標或禮約等不同階段透過諮詢機制減少對契約條款認知差異希望在申訴或調解之前就能達成共識此外嚴厲簡化調解程序以提升整體效力關於推動公共工程節能減碳方面收集工程"},{"start":2965.643,"end":2982.881,"text":"公向碳排係數建立碳排係數的資料庫提供給各機關在工程設計階段使用並結合預算估算系統整合預算碳排及工程數量以推估碳排總量建置系統另外關於金職獎"},{"start":2985.681,"end":3006.409,"text":"評審標準、新增與碳排相關內容包括植栽計畫及綠富利等同時建設公共工程優先使用再生利料制度減少天然骨材的使用並將生態檢核列為施工查核的重要項目從工程的生命週期不同階段進行把關"},{"start":3008.274,"end":3034.286,"text":"關於完善資訊系統在採購資訊採購技術及工程管理上的應用除了前面電子化政府採購及碳排氣數的資料庫等明年度將導入零信任機制進一步提升政府採購網系統的安全並將強化公共工程全生命週期智慧型決策支援服務系統除了可輔助列管計劃進度"},{"start":3035.441,"end":3056.187,"text":"以提前預警及擬定因應措施並可透過公共工程資料交換標準加速工建計畫執行資料的分析以提升公共工程管理的效能。關於114年度預算編列情形依稅入部分本會114年度預算稅入編列新台幣4785萬9千年同113年度預算數"},{"start":3064.409,"end":3074.618,"text":"其中罰款及賠償收入編列44萬元規費收入編列4517萬元6千元財產收入編列2萬元其他收入編列222萬3千元稅出部分本會114年度預算案稅出編列5億4163萬8千元較113年度預算"},{"start":3092.253,"end":3113.443,"text":"數增列49592000年,約增10.08%,增加之預算包括調整待遇之人事費用,配合年度施政目標,新增編列落實公共工程,進行檢探及強化資訊安全防護等工作經費。各業務工作經費預算如下。"},{"start":3116.67,"end":3132.883,"text":"一、一般行政編列3億5930萬2千元支應本會人事會一般行政業務費等基本維持費用較113年度增列調整待遇等人事會教育訓練及水電費等經費2233萬9千元"},{"start":3136.837,"end":3141.003,"text":"第二公共工程企劃及法規業務編列9990萬4000年分別編列以健全採購制度及各項業務"},{"start":3151.155,"end":3173.113,"text":"包括檢討及修訂採購法規、修訂採購企業範本、教育訓練及先導、採購諮詢、推動採購電子化、強化資通安全、中央採購集合、採購正義處理等以及針對技師、工程技術公共公司進行管理及法制作業等業務向下。"},{"start":3174.855,"end":3191.744,"text":"114年度增列導入零信任系統及強化隱私安全協助機關加速政府採購作業捐助工程產業開拓、全球市場等經費2189萬9千年第三是公共工程技術業務編列4533萬2千年分別編列於公共工程計畫與經費審議地方災後復建經費審議推廣公共工程"},{"start":3203.531,"end":3225.386,"text":"節能減碳、公共工程經費估價強化公共工程技術資料庫建置及維護公共工程技術資訊體系辦理公共工程技術鑑定等業務向下114年度新增公共工程節能減碳計畫推動及策略延期建置及開發公共工程經費"},{"start":3227.028,"end":3237.971,"text":"估價網頁板以及碳排估碳排估算等經費12756000元第四公共工程管理業務編列35892000元分別編列與列管公共建設計畫之督導及協處"},{"start":3245.731,"end":3268.453,"text":"列管停工終結約案件建構公共工程全生命週期之評管管理機制建全評管法規制度辦理全國公共工程施工查核辦理優良公共工程金值獎與全民督工表揚活動建制及維護公共工程管理資訊系統等業務向下114年度簡列"},{"start":3271.055,"end":3282.082,"text":"公共工程管理系統開發等經費740萬2千元第五是第一義備軍第一義備軍編列120萬8千年為因應業務臨時需要以增加預算執行之彈性這個是同113年度預算數"},{"start":3290.097,"end":3298.203,"text":"第四是113年度截至10月底預算執行情形稅入部分本會113年度稅入預算數4785萬9千年截至10月底"},{"start":3303.413,"end":3310.535,"text":"指累計實收數3,8342,000元,占全年度預算數80.11%,占累計分配數4,083,000元之95.42%,執行狀況良好。二、稅出部分本會113年度稅出預算49,204,6000元,截至10月底"},{"start":3328.038,"end":3332.862,"text":"累計執行數3億7千586萬9千元佔全年度預算數之76.39%佔累計分配數3億9千386萬2千元的95.43%各項經費均依施政計畫及進度核實之用預計年度終了各項計畫均能如期達標"},{"start":3350.917,"end":3378.649,"text":"五、結議本會將積極協助各機關推動公共工程新力儲備提升公共工程進度及品質所編列的114年度預算案系橫著施政計畫之輕重緩急何時編列均為提升我國整體公共工程環境之所需為使本會114年度各項業務得以順利推展敬請主席及各位委員鼎力支持並會議指教謝謝"},{"start":3381.718,"end":3390.418,"text":"好,謝謝陳主委的報告接下來邀請國家通訊傳播委員會黃祖密進行預算及解凍案報告那時間也是10分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":3399.196,"end":3417.961,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早。今天應邀就本會114年單位預算與附屬單位預算。感謝各位委員對本會各項業務的支持與指教。以下請就114年度施政重點與預算編列內容以及113年度預算執行情形提出檢要報告。"},{"start":3420.439,"end":3434.341,"text":"114年度施政重點本會依據行政院114年施政方針及經社形式的發展編定施政計畫重點在要報告如下一、鼓勵通訊傳播新技術及服務發展"},{"start":3435.402,"end":3444.245,"text":"本會將持續充實我國電信管制設平器材及電信終端設備等技術規範的引進,也同時要完善各項檢驗機構及驗證機構測試的能量。另外,我們也將持續關注公眾與專用電信網路,"},{"start":3452.748,"end":3463.839,"text":"因爲的創新應用,延期國際混用型專用電信網路政策以及國際與我國電信網路各項技術之探討,建構有利於我國電信產業發展之環境。"},{"start":3468.223,"end":3473.506,"text":"二、促進通訊傳播市場公平競爭及產業健全這一部分本會將持續掌握國內通傳產業市場變化進行產業資訊研析與調查以其維持產業健全的發展並提供多元服務"},{"start":3487.509,"end":3505.523,"text":"是政策目標三、保障國民通訊傳播權益那這部分我們將持續的引領電信設備技術規範的研修就建築物屋內外電信設備的技術規範修正協助業者來掌握智慧建築的脈絡第四部分"},{"start":3508.834,"end":3529.143,"text":"保障通訊傳播服務之消費者權益這一部分本會將配合行政院最近所頒布的新世代打擊詐欺行動綱領2.0相關的這些策略與行動方案並且也要求電信事業我們公司協力來建立各種攔阻與警示以有效防止詐騙"},{"start":3530.956,"end":3544.952,"text":"五、建構普及通訊傳播禁用環境促進多元文化均衡發展本會將運用有限基金根據辦理各項偏遠及離島地區有限電視的普及服務以推廣有限電視數位價值及製播"},{"start":3547.975,"end":3564.306,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主"},{"start":3567.492,"end":3580.802,"text":"節目及新聞專業自主本會更需辦理廣地從業人員專業素養訓練內容將會包括事實查證以及公平原則深化事實查證智能善盡媒體社會責任"},{"start":3582.483,"end":3596.816,"text":"七、公司協力來完善網路治理這一部分因為本會成立了網際網路辦公室我們將面對網際網路的各式新挑戰我們會繼續收集各個國家的這些"},{"start":3597.697,"end":3598.957,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":3618.308,"end":3642.5,"text":"一、114年度預算編列情形。一、單位預算本會稅務部分編列兩億五千六百七十六萬兩千元。較上年度預算增加五千一百五十七萬七千元。第二部分稅出部稅出編列七億四千六百零二萬八千元。較上年度增加四千四百七十一萬五千元。二、"},{"start":3643.32,"end":3652.768,"text":"通訊傳播監督通傳基金附屬單位預算部分那基金來源編列4億4千4億4千萬4千元教上年度增加484萬基金用途編列5億1099萬3千元教上年度減列536萬"},{"start":3662.546,"end":3681.554,"text":"三、有限電視附屬單位預算附屬基金部分基金來源編列兩億七千五百八十二萬四千元,較上年度減少一千一百零一萬六千元在基金用途編列兩億七千三百六十三萬七千元,較上年度減列九百萬四千元"},{"start":3686.456,"end":3696.002,"text":"三、113年度預算執行情形本會113年各項預算截至10月底之執行率為90%詳細執行情形請委員參閱書面資料以上是本會113年、114年單位預算編列以及113年執行情形請各位委員指教。謝謝"},{"start":3714.025,"end":3714.712,"text":"謝謝黃竹蜜的報告"},{"start":3719.661,"end":3745.622,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止本會委員除外各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員林國成委員發言"},{"start":3754.025,"end":3779.484,"text":"好 謝謝主席NCC的預算本席季節執行它但是剛剛我在提案中已經講得非常清楚今天出席的NCC的官員不適合明年預算的背景這是主要其原因"},{"start":3780.874,"end":3810.083,"text":"為什麼?因為現在代主委兩天就下台兩天以後代主委才會上台請問一下一個單位沒有首長來巡打請問這個預算如何去說明所以我坦白講今天我會提這個案過去我是非常堅持的尤其NCC所有的作為我本人是非常堅持的"},{"start":3810.885,"end":3827.522,"text":"因為今天是尊重主席他認為應該尋打那我們也希望沒有所長的東西沒有所長在場要去做解凍的動作本席是極力堅持"},{"start":3828.942,"end":3857.086,"text":"一定不要去做解凍的動作所以我還是希望我還是希望主席應該也要了解這整個我們堅持的理念為了和諧為了尊重主席所以我們來尋答好那個主席我現在要請我們公共工程會我們曾經的主委請曾經的主委"},{"start":3863.363,"end":3864.768,"text":"委員長好 主委"},{"start":3865.882,"end":3889.055,"text":"我現在我記得你剛上任的時候本席就執行過因為我非常在乎的也一向非常支持公共工程委員會在飄搖不定的當中我是力挺公共工程委員會要有存在之必要這是不管誰當主委我都力挺為什麼因為公共工程"},{"start":3890.202,"end":3918.043,"text":"委員會是非常重要的因為我們政府裡面所有的標案那一定所有的規範都是公共工程委員會還來做監督所以每一次我基本上我是非常支持公共工程委員會可是上次主委上任以後我一直在提的就是公共工程的公安監督不周管理不效的問題"},{"start":3919.284,"end":3940.749,"text":"主委你可以告訴我因為經過兩三個月以來我不曉得你到底有沒有責成我們所屬去研究如何去做這些公安監督的連線跟監督的工作主委有沒有好報告委員我們除了"},{"start":3941.889,"end":3943.469,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":3966.355,"end":3994.335,"text":"公安的問題也會撤銷這個金石獎所以有使用一個新增的一個工程主委我要的就是說有沒有著手去做像最近只有10月份嘉義科大延期一個公安又死掉10月13號桃園的中游三街也有人死掉11月12號新北市第二行政也是有人死掉"},{"start":3995.731,"end":4016.153,"text":"主委我現在為什麼會這麼在乎因為雖然執行機關不是你但是不要忘了公共工程有關的你都一定要去管所以在這整個合約的部分你特別特別要去規範像這些東西所以我還是再次拜託主委"},{"start":4017.284,"end":4032.83,"text":"人命關天這是勞工的 趕快一點 賺得到吃得到這是最悲哀的事情只要一個公安發生事情你知道嗎勞工家裡面受了多少的痛苦所以"},{"start":4033.71,"end":4057.925,"text":"我希望主委將心比心這個部分刻不容緩盡快去規劃如何去聯合勞動部、勞檢署這裡要做一個橫向聯繫的來動作所以我剛才已經舉例了不能管理無成效然後一直在說你們有在做注意我坦白跟你說"},{"start":4058.846,"end":4064.865,"text":"我對你是非常尊重的所以基本上該做的就要去做這個你做的到了為什麼不做"},{"start":4066.188,"end":4093.955,"text":"這個報告委員那我們會除了剛才我所說的因為你已經答應過我了對你已經答應過我了好另外就是派駐勞工的薪資強制化這個你也答應啦這個你也做得到啊合約寫得很清楚就可以OK啦所以主委我也要拜託你勞工很可憐的我們上週會議已經決定修改範本要求派駐勞工薪水提高"},{"start":4094.855,"end":4123.129,"text":"OK所以這注意這我也要拜託你這個馬上要執行這是一個公平跟保障勞工的一個權利另外一個注意我就要提醒一下台電工程引用移工這個問題你們可能還是要去注意不管怎麼樣台電是國營事業所以在這個部分我也希望公共工程"},{"start":4124.707,"end":4144.292,"text":"委員會還是要準備在整個監督方面這個移工過來其實尤其台電他是危險性非常高的所以我要拜託我們主委在這個部分可能要真的還是要去注意一下是好最後就是預算的問題"},{"start":4146.071,"end":4158.448,"text":"預算的問題我不曉得我那個那個我們你們的處長來來會計室的處長來幫忙幫忙主委一下因為這個太細可能主委不太了解來預算書的問題"},{"start":4162.313,"end":4170.635,"text":"我請問一下114年你們的預算書的第17頁的預算針對你們的預算喔針對公共工程的法規部分分別為推動政府採購華澤等等這三項的東西為什麼要去重疊去編列409萬"},{"start":4189.982,"end":4207.31,"text":"主委不會了解那麼細但是很不幸的現在我們本委員會的立法委員在看預算都非常看得非常細所以主委你可能要去為什麼同樣的名稱會編列409萬這個第一另外一個就是"},{"start":4212.432,"end":4238.485,"text":"主委可能這個談起來主委可能一定要去注意我們預算114年度的預算第12頁的工作計畫第三項也就是公共工程所有的列管數據記載喔注意我們的列管我們的列管是7879億"},{"start":4243.223,"end":4253.807,"text":"我們公共工程但是卓院長在我們院會報告他的列管數據是6190億這裡面就差了1687億"},{"start":4263.069,"end":4285.699,"text":"主委你現在聽得懂我的意思嗎就是我們公共工程委員會他的數據跟行政院長卓院長在院會裡面報告的數據是對不起來的這原因是什麼所以我還是希望主委這當然你得要幫他查一下我不希望卓院長講一套"},{"start":4286.999,"end":4308.108,"text":"陳主委講一套這樣的話我們在審預算到底要聽誰的所以我剛才所說明的這些預算我要拜託你們要解釋清楚不然審預算我跟你講我產生錯覺我砍預算你們不能怪我因為我一向很支持你們的欸"},{"start":4308.968,"end":4334.734,"text":"所以我提出這幾點我希望主委要去督促首屬各負責的單位一定要去做包括勞工薪資這等等公安的問題另外一個剛才我講了該校正的還是要校正因為不能卓院長講一套你陳主委講一套這樣對不起來會被用手啦"},{"start":4338.195,"end":4355.599,"text":"這個問題並非是很大的問題可是數據對不起來行政院人跟你對不起來這個是會贏效大方所以把它查清楚給本席一個說明這樣對預算知不知詞我才有一個定見好不好謝謝林國成委員接下來邀請李崑澤委員發言"},{"start":4370.54,"end":4370.72,"text":"主席"},{"start":4382.524,"end":4400.275,"text":"主秘我們的NCC電信消費爭議處理中心這是我在2013年的時候提案通過成立的那當時的主委我記得是14號主委那當時我也親自現場來接牌成立"},{"start":4401.876,"end":4420.075,"text":"電信消費爭議處理中心現在一年大概處理相關的電信消費爭議大概一年是5000件左右那如果我們來看相關的電信消費爭議裡面通訊品質不佳是最主要的這樣的一個因素那我看"},{"start":4420.896,"end":4444.753,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4444.833,"end":4445.674,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":4465.956,"end":4478.269,"text":"加強民眾職業溝通同時我們也要求電信事業務必要就當地的這些聯繫品質要持續的要關注不能夠讓因為民眾的抗爭而產生這些空窗現在我們針對電信"},{"start":4481.652,"end":4508.891,"text":"通訊品質不佳的狀況我分兩個層面來跟主命來討論第一個是電信黑名單的問題第二個是基地台相關的議題那相關的我們的電信黑名單因為消費者常常因為行動的這個通訊品質不好所以他會向電信的業者客服來反映那有很多就像"},{"start":4510.083,"end":4524.342,"text":"主秘剛才講的是基地台拆除的這些相關的問題那導致服務不佳但這不是消費者的問題啊是消費者認為說你通訊品質不佳我要求解約但是都會遭到拒絕啦"},{"start":4525.203,"end":4547.898,"text":"甚至威脅要列入黑名單所謂的電信黑名單它一開始最主要是說它是要確保在線的安全來防堵一些高風險的客戶就是說被列入黑名單會有什麼狀況就是你會被限制來申辦新的門號"},{"start":4549.019,"end":4569.004,"text":"或稀碼移入,甚至無法享受一些特定的電信服務這些問題,其實我們來看這種所謂的高風險名單一般來說都是處理稀碼或是停用率高"},{"start":4571.348,"end":4598.056,"text":"或者是帳單遲遲沒有繳納或者是網路用量異常甚至是頻繁客訴者現在也加上了剛才我所提的這樣因為通訊品質不佳是基地台的問題然後基地台不佳沒有辦法造成這種通訊品質不佳要求結業你們又拒絕然後又威脅說我就是要把你列入黑名單"},{"start":4599.636,"end":4626.669,"text":"這樣是不對的因為這種濫用的情況就是說這些業者部分業者利用黑名單來威脅消費者放棄合理的訴求就是說你要打消解約或者是你不能要求賠償或者是說你不能再申訴了你再申訴我就要把你列入黑名單這是很莫名其妙我們電信管理法第8條"},{"start":4628.54,"end":4651.385,"text":"電信事業沒有正當理由不得拒絕電信服務之請求及通訊傳遞另外電信業者是特許行業特許的事業應該要提供穩定的服務維護消費者的基本權利那NCC如果確保這些黑名單的機制不會被濫用來總理說明一下"},{"start":4652.125,"end":4655.57,"text":"電信事業無正當理由,你不可以拒絕電信服務的請求及通信。這裡面的正當理由所指的是一切你都必須要依照電信服務契約的"},{"start":4670.189,"end":4670.83,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":4689.694,"end":4704.532,"text":"通訊品質不佳、申訴的你不能把它列為黑名單你必須站在電信管理法第8條以及對於這樣的一個通訊品質的按照電信管理法及公平交易的基本原則來做處理"},{"start":4707.355,"end":4733.661,"text":"這個必須要加強也歡迎民眾如果說假設你被不公平對待的話除了我們的電信消費增益中心之外如果假設各位消費者覺得仍然有必須要再申訴的NCC必須積極的介入相關的業者的督導以及對消費者權益的保障那我們再來討論國內基地台其實建設也陷入困境了"},{"start":4734.895,"end":4759.135,"text":"五G比四G需要更多的基地台密度要更高那我們根據通訊傳播市場的調查2023年的問卷結果顯示更換行動電話業者他最主要原因是什麼因為通訊品質不佳佔了21.8%其實我們來看桃竹苗跟宜花東"},{"start":4761.177,"end":4765.96,"text":"這種通訊品質不佳他們感受最深那這種問題我覺得"},{"start":4772.113,"end":4795.278,"text":"基地台的建置它雖然有它的法規的支持但是也碰到很多的困難電信法第32條規定第一類的電信事業可使用公私有土地建設基礎設施公有土地管理機關沒有正當理由是不得拒絕基地台的設置那實際狀況其實卓明你也很清楚"},{"start":4796.567,"end":4816.555,"text":"部分：而且是很大部分的公部門是以各種理由拒絕建設來導致這些進度的落後那NCC有沒有積極去協調來提高這些基地台的建設率促進全台的網路品質的一個提升"},{"start":4818.676,"end":4837.951,"text":"我印象中行政院這邊實際上有成立一個督導匯報那在督導匯報裡面其實我們也會把各個部會的執行率執行前期公部門不配合就是這部分其實主要還是我們要去加強跟各個地方有公有土地的這部分我們會加強再去督導"},{"start":4839.512,"end":4864.519,"text":"依據我們同仁所給我的資料近期我們大概在近三年內我們已經完成766處的站點中央就佔了75.8%地方是24.2%最後必須要加強因為時間的關係我是集體的經驗你們要成立這種跨部會的小組而且必須要定期的這些評估"},{"start":4865.399,"end":4866.84,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4887.591,"end":4897.767,"text":"針對山林地是不是部分來做開放來做基地台設施或者是交通設施或者是公務機關因為偏遠地區你必須"},{"start":4899.387,"end":4925.043,"text":"來加強它的這種網路通訊的品質這才能縮小城鄉的這種數位的差距而且增加網路的覆蓋率來 蠢蜜簡單說明一下這部分我們將會持續跟在配合行政院的這個督導匯報我們會加強這部分的溝通那也請各部會員也要多多支持必須改善通訊的品質然後要針對消費者的權利要具體的保障這是你重要的工作以上謝謝委員好 謝謝李昆澤委員"},{"start":4929.912,"end":4949.891,"text":"接下來邀請林佩祥委員發言。好,謝謝主席。有請黃祖密。好,請黃祖密。"},{"start":4958.063,"end":4982.342,"text":"委員長當我在看我們這個114年度的單位預算的時候看到第11頁我們有線電有線廣播電視事業發展基金然後我這邊有看到一個項目就是撥付地方政府及捐贈公視的計畫那總金額高達這個基金的70%以上那我看到這個時候我就不禁想問"},{"start":4984.598,"end":5001.567,"text":"針對我們我們在這個台灣PLUS上面直接發表有歧視意味的言論針對這個總統美國總統當選人川普那請問一下像這樣的這種有關歧視的言論是不是有相對的罰則"},{"start":5004.398,"end":5024.978,"text":"是,是這樣子,就是首先請問針對委員的那個詢問在市場的那部分是我們有限電視法裡面規定就是說就我們的這個基金我們的市場必須要有這個東西NCC本身針對把川普說是重罪犯這件事情是不是有針對這樣的事情做出罰則?"},{"start":5026.818,"end":5053.02,"text":"是不是應該作出罰則或有沒有要作出罰則?是,是這樣,我們在我們的這個廣播電視法裡面吶,裡面有一個違反工序良俗違反法律強制禁止規定,有這樣的一個...所以有沒有要罰?目前我們只要接受到,目前有沒有民眾目前在文化部那邊吶,在就...NCC應該是管這些風騷滿歧視言論的第一單位吧?怎麼會都跳到文化部過去了呢?"},{"start":5055.168,"end":5057.875,"text":"目前這部分好像我們沒有接受到民眾這邊對於那個川普這個事件的一個檢舉"},{"start":5062.284,"end":5086.901,"text":"沒有檢舉所以就不用罰好謝謝你那這第二個我甚至這樣講我如果記得沒有錯這個言論是來自MSNBC那MSNBC已經逐漸喪失了他的公信度他的可信度也就是說這句話已經不是從當單純純從川普手上講來而且現在已經被各大美國主流媒體所引用"},{"start":5087.561,"end":5111.843,"text":"那如果那我就很好奇引申到另外一個問題假新聞假消息不是只有台灣才有但是如果當國外的假消息傳到台灣的時候那NCC身為國家通訊委員會你該如何保護中華民國台灣的利益是那個跟委員報告同樣的就根據接續上次的上一個問題"},{"start":5114.318,"end":5116.799,"text":"通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":5145.525,"end":5171.184,"text":"我個人的初步的看法是好那其實那未來如果像這樣的事情的話我希望可以盡量杜絕因為我們知道假消息不是只有在台灣國內裡面會有而全世界的假消息其實充斥了很多那如何把外媒傳進來的傳進來有關歧視甚至是有關有傷害有傷害本國利益的言論我們應該第一時間來去做制止"},{"start":5171.644,"end":5193.699,"text":"那這方面來講不只我本席建議不只要如果要有罰則之外而且還要有時間的查證要查證要更嚴謹不然的話像這樣的事情這出幾次巫王外交部就不用幹了那個跟委員報告其實這也就是為什麼我們在我們的預算裡面會在編列對於媒體素養這個加強也就是所有媒體從業人員我們都定期"},{"start":5196.634,"end":5218.802,"text":"邀請他們來本會加強訓練特別是在內容以及一些查證的技術上面。針對這一點來講的話其實我們講到最源頭因為其實台灣Plus這件事情出來的時候當然獲得我們全國民眾高度的關注那本席跟我們幾位委員們也實質上去看過台灣Plus裡面的內容"},{"start":5221.003,"end":5247.561,"text":"嚴格講起來非常的偏頗不管是在國際新聞上面還是在國內新聞上面報導的篇幅報導的頻率跟內容其實都相當的偏頗而且如果說我們台灣台灣plus的這個模仿對象是韓國的阿里郎TV那很明顯的他並沒有辦法讓國外的好朋友因為看過台灣plus而對台灣有任何的吸引力"},{"start":5248.822,"end":5266.074,"text":"這點其實是我們覺得是我是覺得非常糟糕的一點那請問這一點針對這台灣plus的這個績效不彰或者甚至那個目的目的偏移這件事情NCC有沒有什麼有沒有什麼採取什麼措施首先因為因為台灣plus是公共電視那邊所自播的"},{"start":5266.434,"end":5283.439,"text":"公共電視NCC就不用監督了嗎?要,但是主要的因為他委員談到的是他如何去去制播的這個問題那就涉及到那個他的這個我順便問一下你這一億九千萬裡面有70%是給地方地方政府跟捐贈公視計畫那我問更細一點70%裡面有多少是公視的?"},{"start":5288.044,"end":5313.355,"text":"報告委員那個有限廣播電視基金它是那個系統業者的每年的營收的百分之一我只想知道公視的補助公視佔百分之這裏面基金的百分之三十是依法撥付的所以我們每一年大概都百分之這裏面基金的百分之三十都依法撥付給公視那至於公視是用在哪裡和他們的用途本席就以百分之三十全部刪除"},{"start":5314.776,"end":5330.902,"text":"我會正式提出來而且不得挪用因為這一點來講公視其實公視如果他存在的目的已經損害到國家利益的話實質上我沒有我問政從來不預設立場但是你叫一個美國即將當選的總統當選人說他是felonythat's a very sharp accuse that's a very heavy accuse"},{"start":5341.346,"end":5343.209,"text":"這是笑到真的是一笑國際大方所以說這點來講我認為這個案子裡面預算要全部刪除"},{"start":5351.57,"end":5373.317,"text":"那好這一點我已經保明我的立場那我會再正式提出來我會再正式預算的時候提出來因為他這個是有限電視法的規定就是要撥付這麼多的比例給公共電視那我只能有限電視法的比例是一回事他有沒有保護我們國家利益有沒有對我們全民造成造成良性的影響如果沒有的話"},{"start":5374.884,"end":5376.586,"text":"還是我會堅持我的邏輯思維。好,謝謝黃主任。請陳朱偉上台。謝謝。"},{"start":5389.162,"end":5411.755,"text":"委員長主委我想請教到目前為止針對基隆的風災那目前的因為我知道說基隆的預算這個有關災害的預算已經用完了甚至說基隆市政府國糧市長特地跟我提說我們還有短缺6億的缺口那我想因為那時候行政院主委院長也特地麻煩公共工程委員會陳主委這邊來去做這個整個後面災後的這個金額的幫忙"},{"start":5416.859,"end":5418.023,"text":"我想請問目前整個的狀況是為何?"},{"start":5421.506,"end":5445.987,"text":"報告委員,委員對基隆的風災受損也非常關注所以曾經現勘過一次,工程會派員參與目前基隆市政府所提出來的需求在11月21比較關於教育部分的已經同意已經審核通過另外一部分在12月3會繼續審查我相信我們會盡速來完成這個審查"},{"start":5448.689,"end":5470.166,"text":"好那就是在這邊本席就請拜託我們公共工程委員會跟陳主委如果能的話在合法合理的前提之下儘速讓這個補助能夠過關因為基隆的經費嚴重不足那地方經費未來財化法過的時候或許災害損害性可以調高一點但是目前還是要請這個公共工程委員多多幫忙好沒有問題好謝謝"},{"start":5478.302,"end":5490.589,"text":"陳書業、趙偉"},{"start":5499.564,"end":5514.056,"text":"主秘早本席來關心一下有關這個詐騙的目前跟我們NCC相關的一些措施那我們知道因為其實本席也是會常常接到那個簡訊就是陌生的簡訊然後他"},{"start":5517.438,"end":5522.899,"text":"一般就是有的民眾可能就是說對於這個簡訊有時候不小心可能就是好奇點進去看了就是誤入這個簡訊中的短網址或者是這個電話號碼結果就會造成了他的這個個資或者是財產的一個損失遭到詐騙那這種這個詐騙的簡訊或者是說其他人用詐騙的手法真的是目前非常的猖獗也讓民眾真的是深惡痛絕"},{"start":5545.985,"end":5561.657,"text":"那在今年就是為了要宣示這個打詐的決心所以行政院在今年5月就是我們立法院也通過了這個打詐專法詐欺犯罪危害防治條例然後也修改了這個洗錢防治法科技偵查"},{"start":5562.678,"end":5564.781,"text":"及保障法、通訊保障及監察法和打詐新釋法。當然就是說這個法令通過之後各主管機關當然就是要針對跟自己主管相關的這個權責的部分去訂定這個打詐的加強的一個措施。剛剛我們也有提到這個詐騙檢訊的部分"},{"start":5584.263,"end":5589.347,"text":"從我們資料上看起來從今年的1月到10月仍然有40萬余折的這個惡意簡訊被發送所以這個真的是蠻氾濫的那本席想請教一下就是說目前我們NCC針對這個惡意簡訊的部分我們有什麼具體的措施來防止"},{"start":5604.6,"end":5629.588,"text":"謝謝我們的這個題目因為這題目其實問得很好因為幾乎我們國人我們家裡面其實包含我們自己都會常常接到這樣的一個簡訊所以我們從去年開始我們一系列的從簡訊帶發業者從電信業者他的這個發送以及最後我們個人屬於個人的部分的這個發送我們都要予以明確的規定說你必須要符合一定的規定之後我才遵循你發送"},{"start":5630.408,"end":5651.606,"text":"特別是說過去的話我們有就是說大家懷疑說是不是因為它是所謂的秘密通信的範圍所以我們也不應該檢查裡面的內容那就這一部分我們也透過行政解釋要求所有電信業者你在發送之前所有的內容你都必須要確保裡面不可以有詐騙的內容特別是說剛才委員您所提到的"},{"start":5652.767,"end":5671.723,"text":"短網址以及電話號碼部分這一部分如果假設要發送可以你必須要在擺名單的範圍之內同時你的內容是必須要經過檢視的至於一般使用者如果假設你超過50折的部分的話你超過50折你必須要先取得電信事業凡你認定為擺名單之後你才可以超過50折"},{"start":5673.064,"end":5692.896,"text":"假設你沒有經過電訊事業的認證而有超過50則部分那這份我們會暫時停止你的電訊服務要求業者再做進一步的KYC這一系列的執行成果我們大概我聽不同人講說我們的11月份好像目前已經就簡訊部分已經沒有通報有詐騙的情形"},{"start":5695.56,"end":5717.791,"text":"我們是從11月18號開始實施我們NCC是宣布從11月18號實施這樣子的一個新的商業簡訊要預先審核登錄的一個規定那就主委你回覆說這樣子10天短短10天目前都沒有了現在有沒有就商業簡訊部分"},{"start":5721.57,"end":5745.965,"text":"委員好,就針對因為165這邊每個月會送這個社詐的簡訊的內容的部分到通傳會來那個人的部分就是只要是那個簡訊社詐的部分它實際上從今年的5月開始是逐步下降那一直到10月份給我們的資料的時候這個社詐的簡訊裡面10月份是零件我們這邊是屬於商業簡訊的部分"},{"start":5746.625,"end":5762.764,"text":"那屬於個人簡訊部分當然還是有因為個人簡訊部分因為我們還有還是有50則但是你只要是個人簡訊部分你只要被通報你的這個電話號碼有射炸嫌疑的話那這部分的話我們就會開始會持續關注然後可能會進一步的把你把你就是個射炸的這個電話號碼我們會以你終止電信服務"},{"start":5765.907,"end":5769.209,"text":"商業簡訊這部分因為最主要是說目前的話商業簡訊這一塊大概有屬於業者自己發送電信業者另外有一部分是屬於簡訊代發業者所發送的"},{"start":5789.179,"end":5801.248,"text":"在再發業者的地方我會要求電信事業你必須要求你下游的電信再發業者你的內容要嘛就是透過電信業者來過濾要嘛就是簡訊再發業者類似像三竹這樣的一個企業你自己內部必須要有過濾機制"},{"start":5811.937,"end":5826.609,"text":"這些過濾機制的話當然不會無端的去攔阻所有的你運用AI也罷運用人工也罷你都必須要審視過那內容部分發送之前一定要先看過"},{"start":5828.591,"end":5849.399,"text":"主秘說明,本席要肯定我們ACC在這部分的一個努力。事實上我們ACC主管的這些業務都是跟民眾的民生,真的都是息息相關。跟我們的生活,就是這個詐騙的一個防堵。那另外本席再來關心一下有關這個就是有關"},{"start":5850.78,"end":5852.561,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5871.73,"end":5872.791,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5891.371,"end":5913.508,"text":"所以後來我們本席跟中加兵委員會針對這個召開了一個記者會我們也要求說要把這個部分來納管就是說就是要納管IASP這個部分那本席在這邊請教一下主秘就是在法令還沒有修法通過之前這個算是一個空窗期那我們NCC能夠有什麼樣的作為"},{"start":5915.449,"end":5930.878,"text":"根委員報告目前我大概檢視了我們目前國內的各項法律包含兒少法、兒少法甚至像我們一般行政法令裡面其實大概大部分的大致上都已經有相關條文叫做攔網或者是遮蔽或者是封網或是攔阻這樣一個機制這樣一個機制的話實際上是涉及到說你後端如何去執行的問題"},{"start":5938.402,"end":5966.761,"text":"那剛剛委員有特別提到那個目前上以黃子嬌事件那邊所產生的通訊私訪那個事件那有一個那個我們有線電視部分我們已經在第一時間在一個月內我們已經要求所有的這些有線電視業者那不管你是自己有自己有建構那個DNS的這個這個結譯軟體或者是說或者是說你是透過你的上游那這方面我們已經"},{"start":5967.982,"end":5968.662,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":5984.87,"end":6000.048,"text":"那個那個要想辦法要納入管理那這部分我們目前我們已經有召開那個三次這個電信法修法會議那那個相關的這些條文我們大概有有一些初步的構想那至於後續的這個政策影響評估跟法制影響評估我們再更新再進行"},{"start":6001.027,"end":6002.188,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":6022.157,"end":6022.397,"text":"通訊傳播委員會主管通訊"},{"start":6039.39,"end":6040.111,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":6059.309,"end":6082.875,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6083.115,"end":6109.191,"text":"這一部分先協調我們的業者先用行動基地台的部分先來處理後續的話我們也看看附近有沒有更適當的地點不管是公有的或私有的我們會跟業者一起來努力來短期內解決這個問題是就是說當然有些人對這個基地台是會有一些疑慮可是沒有基地台的時候才會發現很多生活上還是會造成很大的一個不便跟影響是我們盡力服務是好謝謝"},{"start":6128.132,"end":6156.625,"text":"接下來邀請許志傑委員發言謝謝主席我們請安希希委員長主委好我請教你現在海嵐"},{"start":6158.049,"end":6173.017,"text":"登錄站跟海嵐系統我們NCC有沒有什麼規劃就是在高雄來講我們現在我們業者有沒有在"},{"start":6174.565,"end":6202.008,"text":"我們是請同仁回答那個報告委員海嵐登陸站它必須是一個系統的部分也就是說它是一個國際上海嵐上來然後再建一個站那是構成一個系統的情形那目前所知道的大概都是這樣的一個方式在運作現在台灣有海嵐系統上來了就是淡水、巴黎、投誠跟仿山嘛是"},{"start":6204.059,"end":6228.835,"text":"總共有幾G?您知道嗎?幾T?目前我沒有資料,是不是會後提供給委員?我跟主委報告一下,現在新加坡上來的大概有400T左右然後香港上來的有接近200T,190幾T台灣上來的大概有100零幾T"},{"start":6230.612,"end":6243.219,"text":"那在一百零幾梯裡面都集中在淡水、巴黎跟投誠仿山上來的不到一梯這很小、很少那將來其實"},{"start":6245.202,"end":6265.644,"text":"我們台灣的未來整個AI的發展現在像超級電腦資料中心等等這些比較大的流量的站海南站事實上就是說我們今天大流量的台北都已經不適合了吧"},{"start":6266.55,"end":6292.655,"text":"因爲北部的水電問題跟南部的條件不一樣所以高雄其實一來就是我們水電的條件比北部還好二來就是我們其實包括台積電要在高雄設五個廠包括輝達跟鴻海投資的超級電腦資料中心包括"},{"start":6294.062,"end":6322.952,"text":"愛斯摩爾AMD他們都即將進到高雄以未來的這樣子一個AI產業的發展我們希望說高雄將來當然可以變成台灣一個AI最強的城市我們其實是後發先至你像在新竹科學園區他們可能做的奈米數都會比高雄還高"},{"start":6324.252,"end":6343.524,"text":"所以未來其實現在台積電在高雄設的五個廠基本上兩奈米甚至更低都有可能所以這個海嵐站事實上它是一個資訊資料數據的一個海嵐港一個數位港"},{"start":6344.788,"end":6356.901,"text":"那我們其實高雄有海港有空港現在這個數位港的迫切需要那NCC是不是可以規劃這個數位港因為我去查我們所有的法條"},{"start":6358.038,"end":6386.912,"text":"固定通訊業務管理規則其實這些幾乎都是我們NCC的業務啦慣狹全都是NCC的業務所以我是一直希望說不管是數位發展部數位發展部有一個韌性的計畫對台灣將來的數位韌性需要再提高那今天就是說我們從數位發展部的立場從NCC的立場從高雄市未來AI"},{"start":6388.231,"end":6391.774,"text":"議員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":6412.711,"end":6413.952,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":6429.639,"end":6432.181,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":6445.652,"end":6467.366,"text":"看看有沒有就一些建設啦一些管理上面我們可以持續予以放寬的然後來讓那個那個不管是社會部也罷還是其他部會也罷當有當有這個港或是有這樣子一個一個一個建設的時候呢我們可以要快速的來建設我想齁其實這個道理我都懂啦那問題就是誰來掛鈴鐺啊那誰來掛鈴鐺基本上"},{"start":6473.988,"end":6501.949,"text":"NCC是監理機關所以不是主動出席的單位。數位發展部的任性建設這個理念他們也同意。但是他們也不是主動出席的單位。那NCC跟數位發展部都認為這是一個重要的工作。但是公部門找不到人可以做。那這個不是就卡在那裡了嗎?"},{"start":6504.002,"end":6523.429,"text":"所以是不是就是說我們基於政府一個公部門有這個需求那未來這個城市有這個需求那是不是NCC可以主動一點跟數位發展部或者是說高雄市政府申請他也是公部門他可以申請嗎這樣好不好因為我覺得很多事情其實要有一個先導計畫"},{"start":6525.009,"end":6546.196,"text":"那那個我再問我再問一下看看是不是再請示一下我們以後的主委啊看說他的管道啊可以啊跟行政院我是今天在這邊問啦希望那個主秘可以帶到啦因為前任的主委是現在的代理主委我也問過啦未來的代理主委他"},{"start":6547.335,"end":6572.72,"text":"我沒有跟他問過這件事情我的意思就是說NCC內部如果這樣子人事異動我的事情一個人要講一次一個人要講一次一個人再講一次那這個公部門的效率就會讓我質疑所以我希望說祖密要跟不管是誰當主委不管是誰當代理主委"},{"start":6574.448,"end":6601.03,"text":"我覺得這件事情主秘應該清楚所以我現在一問我發現主秘不清楚不是是因為主秘的權限是很有限的啦權限當然是有限但是事情要了解啊事情要研究啊那將來我的意思就是說公部門有沒有機會來掛這個鈴鐺啊公部門當然是有但是說放在NCC這邊的話在角色上面會有一點"},{"start":6602.353,"end":6629.602,"text":"我的意思就是說不見得要你放啦但是至少你要關心要去了解或者是相對的公部門有沒有一個互相研究的機制那總是我要的就是國家的韌性建設嘛我要的就是未來我AI首都需要的所有的配套嘛那尤其是蘇衛港它是一個重要的起點嘛那你今天公部門都沒辦法做那我要找誰"},{"start":6632.136,"end":6654.496,"text":"我們再想一下再跟委員報告我希望說NCC至少要把這件事情你可以說我將來你再拿第一張圖很快結束你看這個海南站都在北台灣北台灣這三個站金門那個比較少北台灣這三個站就超過100梯"},{"start":6656.698,"end":6660.141,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":6672.792,"end":6700.811,"text":"那我這個業務如果要推展那NCC不管是組密也好不管是未來的代理組委也好有沒有辦法去協助這個事情不用問NCC內部的人事問題我也希望說南白可以真的是讓一個機關可以正常運作不要說到時候我這個高雄中大建設結果NCC沒辦法做主沒辦法簽合"},{"start":6702.475,"end":6718.312,"text":"那這樣子就會阻礙到國家的建設。我們會努力。驗證認證部分這個沒有問題。將來如果萬一那個南白沒有同意新的委員進來,像這個案子NCC有權限嗎?如果有人申請進來呢?"},{"start":6720.305,"end":6747.42,"text":"接下來的話我們應該會想辦法啦因為大概還沒有那麼快我想應該不至於讓NCC那麼重的委員所以今天有兩個要求第一個要求希望祖密可以對這個議題稍微深入一點的了解讓我們這個國家重要建設、高雄重要建設這個韌性建設跟AI的發展可以將來順利的進行這是第一件事希望祖密可以去了解一下第二件事就是希望"},{"start":6748.621,"end":6755.995,"text":"今天如果不管是公部門還是你們去鼓勵任何的私部門其實我都不排斥我只要有一家"},{"start":6757.452,"end":6782.588,"text":"我只要有任務完成,那這個任務完成,我就可以接受。是不是拜託NCC努力一點,幫忙完成。希望說NCC可以化被動為主動,主動出擊,幫我解決這個我們高雄的需求,國家的韌性建設的需求。這樣好不好?好,了解,我會努力辦到。好,OK,好,謝謝。"},{"start":6786.662,"end":6801.005,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員質詢那在這邊做先告就是等一下在林俊憲委員質詢後休息10分鐘那在黃建豪委員質詢後處理臨時提案接下來邀請林俊憲委員發言謝謝主席本席邀請我們工程會的陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":6822.464,"end":6850.089,"text":"主委,主委好。主委,這有一件事情需要請主委來協助幫忙支持。這是在台南東山,東山區有一條橋樑叫做東元二號橋。它現在毀損非常嚴重。主要就是昨天有一個風災,那個崑崙颱風把這個橋造成重大的一個傷害。"},{"start":6851.089,"end":6852.651,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6871.074,"end":6890.825,"text":"這條橋很重要,因為它跨過龜叢溪,附近大概有好幾百戶,至少300戶人家必須要靠這條橋進出。那更重要的是,東山的這條東遠二號橋,它是附近龍山坪,處於很重要的一個通道。"},{"start":6892.245,"end":6917.398,"text":"東山啊,台南的東山啊,盛產柑橘類啊,我們的柑仔、柳丁、鳳柑,這個東山是最重要的產區啊。所以現在台南市政府啊,這個即將要提出來就是用災損啊,台風的災損經費啊,他會提報。我不曉得,工程會應該,是不是這一點啊,請那個陳主委能夠來予以支持。"},{"start":6919.148,"end":6939.831,"text":"謝謝委員這個是屬公共設施那因為是災損那如果說臺南市政府因為他經費不足有提報中央來支援的話那只要提報過來我們會盡速來安排現勘跟審查那麼審查通過之後就會請行政院撥款給臺南市政府自行發報"},{"start":6940.452,"end":6958.336,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6958.336,"end":6960.037,"text":"主席本席邀請NCC今天是黃竹敏竹敏"},{"start":6995.922,"end":7000.331,"text":"委員長請教一個關於民生的問題就是說我們一般啦"},{"start":7008.103,"end":7009.264,"text":"按照電訊管理法第66條第一項"},{"start":7029.093,"end":7057.819,"text":"只要不管你什麽東西只要有社評的產品我們有公告一個要管制的項目但是如果你賣的東西沒有經過審驗合格的電信管制社評器材那我們是有罰則的最高一件可以罰20萬但是我看我稍微瞭解一下這個受檢舉的案件非常多"},{"start":7059.4,"end":7071.405,"text":"你看每一年都有幾萬件2022年這種沒有經過審核在市面上辦售的這些有色品的器材你看27766件2023年更多28500多件2024年今年大概到7月差不多半年就22000件左右"},{"start":7089.895,"end":7118.349,"text":"為什麼那麼多檢舉案件?有那麼多的黑心產品嗎?其實不是啦,因為大概他們都是在網路上面,有些廠商啊,互相在檢舉對方的啦。互相檢舉?跟委員報告,因為那個有一些就是有認證之後,但是他標示不清楚,但是我們的規範是要他標示那個合格標籤,所以檢舉案裡面也有內涵那個有合格標籤。那你也應該逐年降低吧,難道廠商都不知道啊?"},{"start":7119.309,"end":7119.91,"text":"檢舉28000多件,只採訪兩件。"},{"start":7142.126,"end":7143.227,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":7164.246,"end":7179.731,"text":"那你重複你的數字為什麼不扣掉這數字是你給我的應該是在那個產品本身他在標示上不清楚的時候他會再重新再上去在這種情形發生但是應該我們的受理件數裡面不會有這個重複"},{"start":7183.667,"end":7194.435,"text":"這裡應該說受理檢舉數那立案數其實是另外一個數字他沒有把這個立案數把他標出來也就是說你自己寫立案數你現在還在那製作你這個檔案也很奇怪我現在質疑你數字為什麼這麼高你都沒有啦那寫不對的"},{"start":7203.081,"end":7232.014,"text":"因為如果假設真的這麼高的話那國內電波資訊一定亂七八糟那我們其實是不會啦那到底現在市面上販售的有色評的到底不合格的是不是像檢舉那麼多因為我們就像我們這個對不合格的部分我們實際上讓他下架大概是以我們這個111年跟112年你應該是要求他來檢驗合格吧對比如說他在電商上面賣那你要求電商把他下架"},{"start":7233.185,"end":7241.757,"text":"問題是他那個東西從別的管道賣那是不是可能一樣是沒有經過檢驗合格的東西有可能是啊"},{"start":7243.455,"end":7268.266,"text":"那你只是眼不見為盡啊你叫他下架不可以賣他去跑去賣你自己不知道啊對我們就是所以我們多次像明天那個數位部他們就會針對電商平台對於違規或違禁只有電商平台在那邊嗎沒有其他的還有其他的管道那現在的大宗是在電商平台是啊"},{"start":7270.402,"end":7292.074,"text":"委員報告實體通路部分的話其實我們會直接連賣場都要負責所以目前透過實體通路反而是比較少的表示說市面上有很多沒有經過檢驗合格的具有色評的這些產品在賣了在跑來跑去在賣了那我再問你如果買到沒有檢驗合格的會怎麼樣如果他買到這個民眾如果向我們檢舉我們就會來裁罰"},{"start":7298.7,"end":7319.758,"text":"我知道啦,我想說你如果去買到啦,也不理你買到沒經驗歷屆的東西又怎麼樣?買的部分我們沒有...不是啦,那這個產品有什麼危害啦?如果假設這個產品它所發射的電波啊,會干擾到其他的這些合法電波的使用的話,那其實是有危害啊,已經非常發生就是那個...第一個它有電波干擾問題嘛"},{"start":7321.345,"end":7341.028,"text":"會不會有什麼個資的問題也沒人知道啦個資因為那是治安上的問題會不會有治安上的問題也是吧那個個資的問題話事實上最多就是最近在講的那個危機地台啦我是要跟你講喔你這個問題看起來你沒有辦法你沒有處理啦你這樣看的話你只是叫他下架而已啊"},{"start":7341.889,"end":7343.49,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7369.437,"end":7386.803,"text":"你只是叫他下架不要在這個不要在這個電商繼續賣委員這個下架也是很重要的測那可能用其他管道再上架不行那個再上架的話再上架的話將來我們會啊就就賣家的地方我們會啊看他要怎麼樣來處理來加強取締啦我先問你這個地方跟一些平台業者"},{"start":7389.124,"end":7416.42,"text":"這個要再密切合作一下,它不是下架而已,你應該要通,這個廠商應該要通報吧,你應該直接警告這個廠商,你已經賣了一個沒有經過檢驗非法的東西,請你要趕快送驗,你如果再賣的話,我只要再看到我就處罰你。是是是,就這段話可能我們自己再修改,在法令上我們可能也要再研究一下,也就是你賣的跟協助賣的,要不要負責任,這部分我們會再研究。"},{"start":7417.641,"end":7418.902,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7447.585,"end":7462.722,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":7495.456,"end":7498.288,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8030.424,"end":8033.805,"text":"好現在繼續開會我們接下來邀請黃建豪委員發言好主席先寫好那我們先請工程會陳主委好請陳主委"},{"start":8057.748,"end":8080.493,"text":"委員早主委早主委喔這個我想這個你可以清楚我要問什麼這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係喔那當然我想這個工程會這邊有這個所謂政府採購法那有這個採購申訴的審議委員會那主要當然就是因為這個公共工程喔如果是這旅業廠商對相關事情有異議的時候這個申訴委員會能夠來處理嘛好那第一件事情是想跟請教一下主委"},{"start":8082.045,"end":8111.445,"text":"在這個採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面今年就在今年而已五月的時候不管是黃國昌委員還是游浩委員的時候都提過這個你們的委員裡面有一個王敬堯這個律師他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會的時候那當然當初有這個有涉嫌有福報公使詐領國防部法律意見的費用那當時呢這個已經是陳主委了陳主委那就是說你也不能接受這樣子的這個事情要暫停這個不是我說的"},{"start":8112.745,"end":8129.717,"text":"你答詢的時候有說啊我沒有說不能接受我說這個我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件那他暫停之後那怎麼現在此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位這個王大律師因為他的申訴文有任期然後勒"},{"start":8130.529,"end":8159.368,"text":"那他發生的事情在擔任申訴委員之前我會向國防部來這個函詢那國防部有沒有證實他任何這些媒體所報導的事情所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他這個擔任這個相關的調解委員所以主委你是說現在雖然名單上面有這個人但是他實務上面都沒有再派案給他了沒有錯那明年會繼續派嗎"},{"start":8160.749,"end":8180.077,"text":"還是要看國防部的回應?任期結束了我們會做適當處理。任期多久一次?任期到明年大概4月、5月。所以他今年第1次提出來的時候是剛拚的時候嗎?是不是這意思?不是。他這個我上任之前就已經是這個申訴委員了。"},{"start":8185,"end":8208.777,"text":"日期到明年4月、5月對好那另外一個事情是最近新聘的我想這個媒體有部分有報導我想主委很清楚我想就教一下主委啊像這個孔大律師我想他業界也非常有名他曾過去也成長過非常多公共工程的一些申訴的案件之前是接官打官司嘛那現在主委你把他聘請來當任我們這個申訴審議委員會的話會不會擔心他成為"},{"start":8210.819,"end":8228.055,"text":"公共工程委員會這邊跟這個廠商之間在調解的時候這個是個障礙啊孔律師在律師界備受敬重是沒錯他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主管委員同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事"},{"start":8232.357,"end":8245.693,"text":"主委我們當然知道他是很重要的律師我剛才提到他是業界非常有名的非常受尊重的律師那今天問題是今天你聘他來當我們這個申訴委員會的委員的時候那他如果遇到以前的客戶"},{"start":8247.389,"end":8262.698,"text":"要跟工程會之間有調節的時候那他的立場怎麼辦?工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則律師也有倫理的規定所以一有不適當的因迴避就會迴避所以主委你確認說每一次的申訴裡面這些"},{"start":8266.015,"end":8268.636,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":8293.728,"end":8322.288,"text":"這個迴避當然你們有針對有13條裡面當然有一些具體的項目但是我想業界或是說大家今天會拿出來這個爆料裡面拿出來講的原因就是因為這個像比如說律師他本身在業界非常有名我想他的影響力也非常大啦那如果你今天聘他來當這個這個審議委員在這個調解的過程裡面或許他迴避了但是我覺得大家說說這麼久很清楚啊他自己就在迴避了他會不會有實質的影響其他委員的實力勒"},{"start":8322.648,"end":8345.364,"text":"我跟委員報告孔律師不會只接這個乙方的案就是承包商的案他大部分接政府的案在交通部高鐵局裡面過去曾經委託孔律師有三十幾件的訴訟案非送案件兩百多件所以你指責或者是說影射孔律師你今天去聘用審議委員的原則是什麼"},{"start":8348.826,"end":8376.444,"text":"我跟你報告我們根據採購申訴委員會的主準則他必須是專業的包括承認法官、檢察官、律師或學者或者是工程方面的學者有一定的標準我覺得沒有指責任何我也不是直接指控說這一位啦那我要的是說今天你們在大家期待說申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的這是大家的期待要專業專業跟中立實務經驗中立也很重要啊當然是專業"},{"start":8379.554,"end":8398.944,"text":"所以我想問為什麼今天特別要聘這樣的一個知名律師因為過去他竟然業界很多的案子有很多的跟政府打交道的經驗他接政府的案子更多我知道啊那他如果參加審議委的話他到底的立場他在捍衛政府的權利他遇到爭議的時候他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情"},{"start":8402.526,"end":8429.847,"text":"還是要站在業界立場出席還是站在中央立場出席他如果申訴委員的調解他就是該迴避迴避其他就是秉公處理嘛好主委我還有時間不夠那當然我就希望你能夠堅持這個立迴避的問題那最後啊我想採購申訴審議委會裡面有所謂的一般的這個一般的委員跟這個諮詢委員那諮詢委員的話呢目前是沒有人數限制目前有64人嘛是吧"},{"start":8431.351,"end":8453.207,"text":"六十到七十六十四那在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候你們說因為諮詢委員涉及個資所以不便提供我想問一下同樣的不管是一般的審議委員剛剛提到的審議委員也好還是這個諮詢委員他們都有所謂的這個都有一規定來知己兼職酬勞嘛"},{"start":8454.993,"end":8466.818,"text":"審議委員最高上限三萬元那每月諮詢委員上限是兩萬元那既然都有領這個所謂的三萬元或兩萬元都有領這個所謂的兼職酬勞的話為什麼呢諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供"},{"start":8467.523,"end":8496.816,"text":"我跟委員報告喔申訴委員是當這個廠商他要求這個調解的時候他可以建立申訴委員所以申訴委員法律規定必須公開的我們依法公開那諮詢委員呢他是接受諮詢他並不是參與大會的這個調解的委員所以按照各執法呢我們無權公開各執法哪一條啊對不起主委我想請副主委跟你說明好"},{"start":8499.025,"end":8520.88,"text":"委員好那因為剛剛主委大概有說明了那因為各執法第16條那麼如果要公開它有一些要做目的外的使用它有一些要件那各個要件要去答別如果沒有符合要件公開尤其是由公務員公開的話那麼刑責可能會加重所以對我們來講"},{"start":8521.881,"end":8542.521,"text":"因為這個知委他基本上他只是一個資料庫那當時我們去徵詢他們的時候也沒有跟他們詢問說你要不要讓我們公開所以我們現在無權去把他公開我想這樣啦不管主委副主委今天不管是今天既然像沈議員他當然有領他有領所謂的車馬費或是所謂的這個接任者這個酬勞"},{"start":8543.542,"end":8560.588,"text":"今天諮詢委員他同樣也有領取這個公帑的部分嘛那既然有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護"},{"start":8561.528,"end":8563.349,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":8578.533,"end":8602.5,"text":"我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委員我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開"},{"start":8604.008,"end":8626.822,"text":"如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的"},{"start":8629.704,"end":8642.178,"text":"我今天講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能公開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定"},{"start":8645.697,"end":8663.003,"text":"我想這樣啦主委如果你這麼堅持的話那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告"},{"start":8663.823,"end":8686.971,"text":"申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員"},{"start":8690.922,"end":8708.571,"text":"如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說聲勢會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規"},{"start":8709.622,"end":8727.231,"text":"跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理就是兩件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就比如你在背後提供意見,因為你今天是有問題,我來問諮詢委員"},{"start":8730.533,"end":8758.781,"text":"給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案"},{"start":8760.818,"end":8787.739,"text":"對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界面將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝"},{"start":8790.353,"end":8815.711,"text":"好,謝謝黃建豪委員發言那我們現在先進行處理臨時提案請議事人員一併宣讀臨時提案一,行政院公共工程委員會下設採購申訴審議委員會申訴會除申訴會委員外主管機關及直轄市縣市政府得市業務需要"},{"start":8816.857,"end":8842.334,"text":"林聘學者專家為申訴會諮詢委員。經查申訴會組織準則並無明文規定諮詢委員不得公開知情事。其名單之公開亦非屬政府諮詢公開法應限制公開或不予提供之情形為維護政府諮詢公開制度保障人民資的權利。工程會應於一週內公開申訴會"},{"start":8844.635,"end":8871.342,"text":"諮詢委員名單不應以各自問題遮掩。提案人委員黃建豪等。饮食提案二、行政院公共工程委員會下設採購申訴審議委員會。命主管機關及直轄市縣市政府得視業務需要。臨聘學者專家為申訴會諮詢委員。每年度工程會公務預算均編列申訴會委員出席費及審查費經費。"},{"start":8874.38,"end":8903.712,"text":"工程會公務預算編列委員出席費及審查費細目為何?原要求工程會應於一週內提供申訴會委員及諮詢委員實際參與案件審查之內容含參與委員案件名及兼職酬勞名系提供本院交通委員會委員提案人委員黃建豪等宣讀完畢請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見"},{"start":8905.489,"end":8910.391,"text":"我們行政單位要不要先做一個說明。好,請副座位。"},{"start":8917.065,"end":8940.778,"text":"主席以及各位委員大家好很感謝委員提出這樣的一個提案那可能要跟委員報告一下我們面臨的一個問題那這個剛剛有跟委員稍微解釋過了因為我們的申訴委員是相當於訴願會的組織所以訴願會因為他有對外公開"},{"start":8941.638,"end":8967.021,"text":"所以我們這個申訴委員的部分也必須公開那況且因為我們的機制是這個爭議兩照可以事先來建立這個申訴委員所以我們就申訴委員的部分一開始徵詢的時候就有請求他們公開所以那一部分我們公開沒有問題那有關諮詢委員的部分因為這個他等於是我們的一個資料庫"},{"start":8968.602,"end":8991.268,"text":"知行委員的工作基本上並沒有直接去決定調解建立的內容基本上只是協助委員幫忙整理一些爭點以及委員的意見最後得出來的意見或是整理出來的意見必須交給委員申訴委員並不是他可以自己決定的"},{"start":8992.308,"end":9018.838,"text":"那麼也是基於這樣的一個理由我們並沒有要求諮詢委員的資訊必須公開那現在如果說依照這個提案請要求公開尤其是包括他的這個案件跟這個監職的酬勞那因為案件本身又牽涉到廠商"},{"start":9019.818,"end":9049.378,"text":"那有的廠商事實上他不希望他的爭議案件被公開那這可能就會限我們違反這個個人資料保護法第16條因為我們當時去收集這些資委的名單是供我們內部去指派委員所用那如果說我們要提供給這個櫃會啊櫃院那麼可能就會變成是特定目的外的使用那特定目的外的使用依照這個個人資料保護法"},{"start":9050.278,"end":9074.575,"text":"第16條必須符合7款的情況之一我們看本案的情形似乎都不符合個資法的例外公開的規定所以這個對我們來講可能會有一點自愛難行那如果說我們強行公開可能會限於我們被個資擁有者"},{"start":9076.836,"end":9099.229,"text":"對我們所求甚至我們可能因為公務員身份也必須會負擔相關的刑事責任所以這部分還請委員量查那如果說委員認為我們有比較具體的個案也許可以提供給我們那我們進行去調查查處跟委員報告是不是可以用這種方式來以上報告謝謝"},{"start":9102.032,"end":9109.977,"text":"謝謝副主委的說明請問提案委員黃建豪委員是不是可以接受剛剛黃主委的一個建議"},{"start":9111.145,"end":9132.395,"text":"謝謝主席這是兩個案子第一個案子當然是先說這個我先講不是針對個案我沒有什麼個案要跟各位反映我純粹就針對這個政府資訊公開法的部分要提出一些建議跟想法那第一個當然是就還是回到那個問題啦就是諮詢委員今天我們要他公布諮詢委員的原因就在於說"},{"start":9134.278,"end":9160.186,"text":"他用講涉及各自的問題來當作理由說不能對外公開但是我覺得這個理由有點牽強因為在這個政府資訊公開法裡面它有相關的限制公開或不予提供的這個狀況所以依照這個狀況來講看起來沒有因為它是真正這是公共利益嘛因為它是針對是跟政府採購有關的並不是有私權的爭議它是跟政府採購跟政府機關有這個異議發生的時候才需要做這件事情所以我認為第一個"},{"start":9161.326,"end":9171.665,"text":"第一個提案是要公開所謂的申訴委員會名單這樣我們才能知道他怎麼樣聘用聘用哪些人是不是具有相關專業這我想這應該是監督的一個基本的環節這第一件事情"},{"start":9172.788,"end":9192.953,"text":"第二案當然這個兼職酬勞名系的部分案件名稱等等如果涉及到廠商的部分那的確這個不一定要這個按照原文提案來做但是我覺得還是要有基本的一個審議的標準不然我們不知道說一年兩千萬的錢到底是給了哪些人花來去那基於什麼原因那加上說在這個"},{"start":9194.153,"end":9221.963,"text":"工程會昨天回覆的報告裡面有講說這個關於申訴的過程裡面不用寫原因只要寫結論所以我覺得這個編列這樣的錢進去下編列這樣的錢進去那確實立法院完全看不到也不知道說到底這錢給了哪些人基於什麼原因給他所以我覺得這還是不太合理的所以我認為當然的確案件跟這個酬勞明細的確可以省略但是你不能完全的空白空白授權說我要兩千萬那工程會要怎麼發就怎麼發以上"},{"start":9225.576,"end":9254.237,"text":"那個在原位說明好不好那個有麥克風好請副主委說明不好意思那個跟委員報告事實上並沒有媒體所報道的說我們有委員要求說這個我們的調解建立不要負理由他事實上是在舉例說因為譬如說我們法院的調解我們這個鄉鎮公所的調解"},{"start":9254.717,"end":9281.781,"text":"甚至勞動的調解他們基本上都不會附理由只是結果那他希望我們的工程會的調解理由能夠簡單一點因為我們通常寫得非常長通常寫得比判決書還長那麼也有接受到各界的懷念但是因為當時在討論的時候他有點是個人的意見所以我們從頭到尾都還是維持現在調解建議書他還是要附具理由"},{"start":9282.361,"end":9300.394,"text":"而且還附近相當詳盡的理由所以這點還是跟委員說明一下,謝謝那請陳主委說明跟集會委員報告工程會的申訴委員會處理理由爭議那麼案件非常多了"},{"start":9301.589,"end":9319.384,"text":"過去備受反應的意見是認為每個案件處理提出調解建立時間太長那太長是因為整個調解的過程有點類似法院的審理或者是判決"},{"start":9320.305,"end":9326.049,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":9350.846,"end":9377.288,"text":"所以這個時效非常重要所以我們讓諮詢委員來協助預審然後來整理這些意見這是考量之一另外剛才副主委也說了法院的調解建立也沒有提出理由書所以我們為了這兩方面的考量所以目的是為了改善目前整個調解的時效"},{"start":9381.309,"end":9386.452,"text":"林俊憲委員資訊委員總表公布資訊委員總表公布資訊委員總表公布資訊委員總表公布"},{"start":9405.542,"end":9428.923,"text":"剛剛主委的答案是這樣?是這樣?報告委員他不是幫我們預算他是幫那個我們的申訴委員喔對對就申訴委員會嘛然後他的報告再送給申訴委員會嘛他通常他也不會自己寫意見他是只是提供意見而已是由那個申訴委員申訴委員做最後的裁決嘛"},{"start":9429.983,"end":9453.984,"text":"那個申訴人跟被申訴人他申訴的對象一定是公部門嗎?對,因為這是政府採購,一定是一照廠商一照機關那如果你真的公布你剛說的最大的問題是什麼?如果是不只是個資啦,就是說你公布以後那資訊委員會不會受到壓力?"},{"start":9455.557,"end":9480.972,"text":"所以這當然也是我們的考慮之一啦假設我是申訴委那我就找申訴委員說你幫我寫好聽一點申訴委我們是有公開啦就是諮詢的部分是沒有的那也諮詢委員啦諮詢委員說不定有時候你在諮詢委員在事先做這個事先的預算工作的時候會不會受到一些人情傷啦或者是一些壓力的問題"},{"start":9482.353,"end":9505.536,"text":"所以我們基本上是希望維持一個比較公正的一個環境讓委員去處理所以我們會比較希望不要有外界太多的干擾我覺得這個議題兩面就是就算他最後決定還是審視委員會在決定嘛那預算委員等人類是做一些幕僚的工作嘛"},{"start":9508.378,"end":9527.584,"text":"主席我是覺得這個部分的立場還是尊重主管機關的立場因為你如果事先公佈也確實會不會產生人情上或者是說一些壓力上因為你申訴的場上就會去找這些委員看能不能幫忙會不會有這種狀況"},{"start":9530.286,"end":9543.683,"text":"各有利弊啦,那我覺得還是以遵照,我是本期是建立遵照那個主管機關,那個工程會的那個意見好不好?好,謝謝林居憲委員,那請那個魯明澤召委。"},{"start":9544.38,"end":9545.32,"text":"責任政治責任責任責任責任責任"},{"start":9565.825,"end":9578.921,"text":"遇到的一個申訴案件這諮詢委員是我選的三個假設有三個委員作為這個案子的諮詢委員比如說姬姐好啦這個案子的諮詢委員他是一直不變還是你每一次會議隨便六、四個來挑"},{"start":9581.682,"end":9598.67,"text":"三派的職委是同一個人對阿固定的嘛好所以在固定的這個部分啦如果你說你是隨機的我就覺得你公布公布就感覺沒有差可是你等於說我質詢這個你們做的決策這個大家在共同的負責嘛"},{"start":9600.11,"end":9614.819,"text":"可是問題現在情況是這樣如果你在大數裡面事前不列名事後不署名結果根本沒關誰出的意見搞不好變成主要意見拜託不要寫我的名字那前面"},{"start":9615.64,"end":9634.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9634.613,"end":9650.451,"text":"並不是在問你假設魯明哲委員他什麼時候生的他存款多少我有問這些嗎你用各自法去講申訴委員會要不要公佈他的一個名單但是我建議可以討論我只公佈姓名譬如說學經歷"},{"start":9652.45,"end":9679.617,"text":"個案我是建議他推拿個案完全不需要公布啊他的壓力當你覺得這個案子我找了某一位委員來壓力當然會去找他嘛那個就不對了但是哪些人在我們國家做這個諮詢委員那這是一個榮譽吧為什麼不能我覺得適度要去公布但你設於個人各自地址當然不要公布啊我想這個部分能不能能不能部分來公布"},{"start":9682.464,"end":9698.521,"text":"謝謝委員的指教再說明一次就是工程會的履歷正義他是提出調解建立這個調解建立要雙方都同意才有效才成立所以雙方都可以不接受所以他是提出一個調解建立"},{"start":9699.482,"end":9719.87,"text":"過去因為案件太多所以速度很慢我們要補充人力也無從補給,原額預算都沒有所以我們才想說現行的諮詢委員過來協助這有點像是這個協助整理相關的調解建立的內容他的理由書的方式"},{"start":9720.47,"end":9748.596,"text":"那諮詢委員本身他除了這個工作之外在有些禮約爭議的案件還沒有進他不必直接進入調解他不必直接申請調解在之前可能招標過程或者是禮約過程他都可以來申請諮詢而且那個諮詢就是好像顧問一樣我跟你解釋你們可以這樣做要不要做雙方自己去做那今天的問題是申訴委員依照法律規定公開我們都已經公開了"},{"start":9750.017,"end":9766.115,"text":"諮詢委員必須徵得個人每個諮詢委員說你擔任諮詢委員費用多少是不是可以公開如果每個諮詢委員同意當然我們就公開如果他們不同意我們無權替他公開"},{"start":9769.512,"end":9789.53,"text":"那請要謝謝委員謝謝請問一下當然我覺得我們可以聚焦一點因為大家沒有在質疑諮詢委員存在的一個必要性那如果說對我們工程會的調節效率有幫助的話我想剛剛都沒有提到說要把它廢掉還怎麼樣那最重要的是討論諮詢的公開那剛剛主委有提到說這個"},{"start":9793.754,"end":9802.402,"text":"一個是諮詢委員另外叫申訴委員申訴委員您說有法律法源依據可以公開那請問一下申訴委員公開名單的法源依據是什麼"},{"start":9805.816,"end":9832.279,"text":"因為跟委員報告我們的這個申訴會處理兩類案件一個叫申訴一個叫調解那申訴案件就相當於行政機關的訴願那訴願依照訴願法這個委員名單必須公開因為他在那個決定書上面必須公開所以我們在當時在徵詢這些委員的時候我們已經有請他提供要公開的資訊了所以那部分我們是有做到公開"},{"start":9833.3,"end":9856.354,"text":"是這樣來的所以你說依照訴願法那訴願的結果那訴願的人的名字必須要在上面所以他必須要公開那有沒有類似你有沒有參考過其他機關比如說我們很多機關都會有一些委員會嘛比如最近比較紅的就是都市計畫委員會嘛等等的這些委員的名單也都是公開啊"},{"start":9859.303,"end":9872.1,"text":"督記委員會比較跟我們的申訴委員比較像我們的諮詢委員比較像是內部諮詢用的他並不是去做決定那如果說以各支法的法律位階跟政府資訊公開法兩個來講的話"},{"start":9877.028,"end":9905.849,"text":"政府資訊公開法的優先順序應該高於個資法吧跟委員報告因為政府公開法政府資訊公開法第18條那麼也必須去符合這些條件如果有這些條件的話也是不能公開那裡面就講說如果其 第一款就講說如果其他法令有規定或者在第六款他講說涉及到隱私的部分所以他又會回到個資啦他又回到個資法就涉及到個人資訊的部分又回到個資法啦"},{"start":9908.503,"end":9931.74,"text":"這樣這條法院不就白定了也不能這樣講就是說他還是要個案裡面去判斷是透過一個解釋的方法去判斷我想這還是有公共利益啦我想資訊該不該公開牽扯到一個很大部分就是牽扯到公共利益如果說牽扯到公共利益的話我們很多政府的事情就必須要公開因為我們必須要知道你們聘請的諮詢的委員他的專業度"},{"start":9934.162,"end":9961.432,"text":"等等的他的經歷等等的這都是應該本來就是應該要可受公平之事嘛那你換個立場想一想那工程會有工程會的立場那如果說你換一個角度想站在政府公開通訊的角度想你也希望說我們公共工程委員會聘請的諮詢委員或者說你站在場上的立場講你也希望這些委員的一個學經歷或是社會歷練是能夠幸福大家的嘛"},{"start":9963.078,"end":9986.242,"text":"這是一個公家機關的公信力嘛大家要去檢視啊如果說你都不關於這些的話那你怎麼檢視就像我們現在大家在審大法官在審這個考試委員就是要提供這些經歷嘛那經歷才大家才會說適不適格嘛那你們聘請的委員是不是適格這經費花的值不值得那就是我們現在立法院要來探討的啊"},{"start":9990.707,"end":10001.392,"text":"本席在這邊做一個建議就是剛剛委員也都有詳細的來詢問公部門這邊也有做一個詳細的說明有關公共工程委員會的申訴審議委員會所聘請的申訴會委員還有包括幕僚單位的諮詢委員都是這一個"},{"start":10018.8,"end":10032.933,"text":"針對廠商爭議的一個申訴跟調解的一個運作的一個模式跟一個行政程序那剛剛公共工程委員會也有說明就是可以法令規定可以公開部分這個申訴委員的部分有照"},{"start":10033.433,"end":10058.345,"text":"法律規定來公開那諮詢委員的部分因為在聘請的時候並未徵得諮詢委員的這個同意所以他們依各自法的這個規定就不便公開那是不是就是因為行政部門在這個部分有表達這個有困難的之處那本席是不是建議說我們在臨時提案不予處理好不好"},{"start":10065.468,"end":10083.339,"text":"來主席這樣子啦因為我提兩案嘛對第二案因為涉及我剛剛提到因為涉及所謂的酬勞名系又涉及到這個案件涉及到私人廠商的問題所以我認為第二案我可以不予處理我接受但是第一案這個公開申訴委就像公開這個所謂資訊委員名單就承輸剛剛幾位委員講的"},{"start":10086.553,"end":10096.239,"text":"如果諮詢委員會有壓力請問那個申訴委員會有壓力嗎你法定公開那些委員會有壓力啊那既然這些諮詢委員只是僅供諮詢那我認為這公開並沒有違反所謂的個資那當然我認為"},{"start":10102.911,"end":10126.047,"text":"這是責任政治的問題,諮詢委員應該要把他公開名單當然你說在聘用的時候,當下我沒有跟他講說你可能會被公開那我們是不是這樣子,修正審後續在聘用的時候要真的他的同意就是他要能夠同意自己被放上去這個公開名單裡面再聘用不然但我可以接受嘛,現在你聘用的時候我沒有說你會被公開所以你同意了來擔任我的諮詢委員"},{"start":10129.007,"end":10142.258,"text":"黃委員的建議是之後聘證的時候徵詢是否可公開因為目前已經聘用的我們就是依各自法不便公開您有建議修大概最後這邊"},{"start":10143.559,"end":10160.483,"text":"因為我們也希望工程會未來針對委員的提案如果可以用修正的能提一些修正方案不要直接全部否決那保障人民資的權利最後這個倒是第二行工程會應於一個月以內徵詢現有的這個諮詢委員公開的意願"},{"start":10167.685,"end":10170.887,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":10189.776,"end":10216.47,"text":"那未來能夠持續走向這個直接徵詢的公開的這個方向我覺得現在要開始開始朝向這個做如果他不願意那不願意那我們就尊重他尊重他的意願嘛是不是朝這個方向來修正好不好好那謝謝魯明哲召委的建議算是一個折衷的方案啦是不是我們讓我們同意委員的這個修正好那我們就是依據魯明哲召委剛剛的修正意見"},{"start":10218.171,"end":10241.287,"text":"好那是文字上那我們要馬上修正是不是請那個副主委你把文字修改一下請問一下你們現在現有的任期是多久一年嘛所以也到年底了嘛對啊所以就是所以剛剛講的是包含這一屆還是從下一屆開始這樣子"},{"start":10246.317,"end":10252.316,"text":"我們在芯片我們就會開始徵刑我們就依照就形成是一個固定的做法"},{"start":10258.474,"end":10276.395,"text":"那是不是文字上可以容許修正委最後這一句話工程會應於一個月內徵詢申訴會諮詢委員意願公開申訴會諮詢委員名單那後面那一句話請求可以刪除這樣子"},{"start":10279.36,"end":10284.381,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":10308.991,"end":10318.197,"text":"好那臨時提案處理完畢如果委員對上述提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報那現在請魯明哲召委來發言"},{"start":10331.826,"end":10346.557,"text":"謝謝主席我們直接請今天NCC派誰來請黃竹蜜黃竹蜜我們跟工程會的陳主委NCC的黃竹蜜兩位一起來好了請陳主委"},{"start":10354.417,"end":10368.815,"text":"好我第一個問題是真的跟NCC因為NCC的新的這個代理主委大概三、四天之後才會上任但是因為這個問題今天審到你們的預算那很多的"},{"start":10370.937,"end":10381.643,"text":"訪間媒體早就提過這個問題了事實上我們也一直在關注這個問題就是針對於NCC的整體的一個訴訟費訴訟費不是我們委員在講也不是媒體在講你們自己從107年、108年、109年你們覺得一個正常的一個機關正常的機關大概你們就編了三年編了都150萬150萬覺得夠用"},{"start":10397.35,"end":10417.267,"text":"結果到110年開始發生了這個要中天據換照不給他換照這件事情發生之後你們每一年的預算跳了四倍然後到112年變成1140萬雖然到最後沒用這麼多可是你們編預算的雄心壯志我們看出來了"},{"start":10418.672,"end":10447.756,"text":"像這樣的一個編預算我就突然覺得很奇怪你不是一般的公司你是政府機關政府機關要去打官司的機會其實也沒有那麼多啦也沒有那麼多啦那是不是對這個機關的獨立專業公平性的NCC委員所做出來的行政的裁決、裁處很沒有信心後面還有救火隊"},{"start":10449.74,"end":10464.575,"text":"主委這個我看說我們做出來的問題很多喔 趕快先編好嘛先編好 你們的心理是怎麼樣 為什麼4倍最後7.6倍是跟委員報告 其實是因為有些制度上的改變了"},{"start":10465.276,"end":10482.476,"text":"例如說像最主要是因為過去因為我們有訴願就是在訴願先行所以受處分的當事人可以先提起訴願那後來因為我們的整個法律修改過後對於我們的這個行政處分可以要進行提起行政訴訟了所以已經沒有所謂訴願先行的程序這是一個"},{"start":10483.377,"end":10508.984,"text":"那另外一個是因為你也知道我們那個黨軍軍退出媒體這個事情我們每次碰到那個黨軍軍退出媒體我們都雖然換照是換照但是都加上一些付款要求人家在下一次換照之前要處理完黨軍軍的這個股份不過你剛剛講的主要的第一個理由其實就適用於其他機關其他機關沒有像你們這樣搞的其他機關都必須要"},{"start":10511.524,"end":10533.031,"text":"訴訟的整個的一個費用這樣的去備徵,最後他用到哪裡去呢?我們那個感覺好奇怪喔,就是當年為了關中天後面的訴訟國家隊啊,欸,這裡面的兩個意義就是說,其實我對於我的行政裁量的品質,我是沒有這麼有信心的,還是後面編一些律師費來擋一擋。"},{"start":10534.791,"end":10559.61,"text":"萬一我做的裁定被人家這個翻案的時候我們要去我第一個是沒有信心嘛所以你到底是不是濫罰後面勒那你要被打臉幾次呢我覺得這個案子你到底要被打臉幾次才有那種快感呢就是我一個行政裁量已經經過你們內部NCC團隊覺得有問題然後給七位好不好專業的委員獨立公正的委員判斷判讀"},{"start":10560.811,"end":10585.45,"text":"你們是這個兵強馬壯的國家隊啊你們在採組的過程中有這麼多律師可以問你們比一個不管企業民眾你們強大多了所以在這種情況你們做出來一個行政的材料按照這個道理你要對自己非常有信心結果呢你們這樣的一個之後然後到了行政行政訴訟一半而一半之後哇討論一下"},{"start":10586.411,"end":10587.992,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10610.287,"end":10627.828,"text":"已經這個敗訴的部分你們當時罰人家一千一百五十三萬就一千多萬精確數字你們大概自己去算那你們現在已經確定敗訴了退了多少現在還人家多少以中天案退了多少"},{"start":10635.696,"end":10643.263,"text":"目前還的多少?就我們半數確定是有五件我印象中好像應該是六百多萬吧"},{"start":10647.27,"end":10669.786,"text":"我覺得NCC對我來講是真的非常離譜我也覺得很惡劣在這些不是光中天這個議題而是你一個行政機關你的思考性的一些問題你到底要怎麼樣去做這件事情變強大的兵牆馬狀的律師費對自己的裁決的品質不太信任第二個呢好嗎那你去衝嘛你去"},{"start":10670.626,"end":10698.028,"text":"大家互相告嘛上訴嘛弄完之後你知道嗎過去10年過去10年我們司法的統計年報行政機關我這兵搶馬帳的團隊我可以諮詢律師做出來裁決尤其我們依法行政我對法律的賢手對不對在在我都比別人要強那麼多我們做出來裁決怎麼會出錯呢但是每一個機關都會多多少少會出錯"},{"start":10699.827,"end":10717.227,"text":"那歷年來過去上去10年我們看到平均的政府被告被提行政訴訟敗了7到14%你們就中天案我們整個去看不管你一個案子幾次你一直上訴我就給你算嘛敗一次敗兩次總共"},{"start":10719.693,"end":10744.471,"text":"你們42次你們給我的表你們現在敗了17次到底要敗到多少才開經來因為總共在中間這一次上次不換照的時候總共是26件那目前的話我們目前是有5件是確定的包括什麼營運計畫包括換照的一大堆的問題啦不光是裁罰的問題啦但是屬於內容裁處部分是26件"},{"start":10745.672,"end":10745.772,"text":"憲政委員會長"},{"start":10775.912,"end":10776.733,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10796.612,"end":10798.814,"text":"律師事務所律師事務所律師事務所律師事務所律師事務所"},{"start":10817.719,"end":10836.744,"text":"這麼多的案件從107年到現在為止你們所有的訴訟案件有一位律師因為我不見得覺得有問題啦就是你是不是有御用律師還是專任律師還是body body的兄弟我不清楚一個律師你們幾十個案件我來就好了我還沒算他的敗訴比率啊"},{"start":10837.344,"end":10855.566,"text":"你們這個整個的一個部分訴訟的這個部分我真的給你一個良心的建議這種訴訟的能量跟品質放在前面好不好放在你們NCC要做決定的那一刻開始把這些專家意見納在那裡不是在這後面浪費人民的預算"},{"start":10856.787,"end":10869.034,"text":"陳主委就這一部分的那個我這是給你建議啦像這樣的這種搞法的話陳主委因為我時間真的有限了齁那我這只是給你建議齁因為你昨天還是前天去了淘氣公司吧前天"},{"start":10870.37,"end":10899.736,"text":"那我們特別秘書回來說他整個報告完畢了你講了一句話跟我心中講一下怎麼沒有報告PMS行價怎麼報告一大堆就這部分就是簡單一頁就過去了那現在一個情況是這樣我是希望你這一次的三個重點的施政正好是我要跟你說的你說列管重大公共工程這個你在昨天你也說這個是重大的工程"},{"start":10900.436,"end":10928.717,"text":"必定要如期如實完工。第二個你要健全採購制度這中間有很多採購第二個問題分包商到底可不可以再這樣去弄呢第三個履約爭議的調節的品質那現在進度嚴重落後分包商現在變成說這個系統廠商是履歷但他們還在爭議嘛所以又有人提一個方案說好吧組織圖改一下呃承運"},{"start":10930.325,"end":10932.546,"text":"公共工程委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":10944.191,"end":10970.278,"text":"自駕系統的細設文件連現在廠商都沒確定分包商因為也沒有簽可是你知道嗎NTP加271天11月14號到期了已經到期了是幹嘛哪個階段呢PMS航廈電巴系統這個廠商要把各個分包商的細部設計全部送完所以你有沒有一個大問號"},{"start":10972.418,"end":11001.235,"text":"你們那個系統廠商都還沒喬定啊是姓張還是姓李不知道怎麼系統的系社文件這家系統系統送了欸不能亂搞惡劣到這種程度啊就隨便寫下送囉倒了也成功送了裡面出資萬兆亂七八糟誰做都不知道但沒關係我送了我送了就算省不過沒有關係再說我是覺得這些東西你都要關心一下"},{"start":11002.977,"end":11029.047,"text":"因為西部設計現在全部送完了那你知道嗎?初步的審查什麼?出資濫造文件的數量、品質可以講非常低落,要求他重寫所以我是覺得這可以納入你們在思考的過程中問題是你看到1月1號1月1號,剩一個多月要測試限控系統,那是系統的"},{"start":11030.425,"end":11055.295,"text":"這是國家重大就讓你再這樣這個這個然後再來3月1號要自駕測試你覺得他這個可以如期如質完工嗎?報告委因為第三航廈T3是一個重要的國家建設那過去機場被批評說不如外國的機場所以我們希望透過第三航廈的改建來扭轉這樣的形象提高服務的品質"},{"start":11057.636,"end":11080.388,"text":"關於試駕的部分關鍵在系社所以如果系社沒有通過不會有測試不會有那些問題那我想我已經要求淘氣公司或交通部兩個原則第一個必須依法來妥善處理這個採購案第二個要衡量將來機場的服務品質是否能夠符合民眾的需求跟期待"},{"start":11082.307,"end":11104.381,"text":"好,那最後就這兩句話拜託你齁你真的要進去協助啦因為昨天你去特別他也沒跟你報告PMS到底有什麼需要你協助的事項只是說陳昱可能會去跟你有什麼有什麼這個要一一要處理啊要請你們協調啊我就覺得好可怕欸現在距離1月1號剩幾天而已現在連系統誰做"},{"start":11106.242,"end":11124.793,"text":"他們的合約還講說當時弄得很開心不光是做二、三行下的電發未來還保留擴充到一行下的我拜託一下你務必再關心一下他們實體的進度在合法如期能夠完工這是我們的願望謝謝謝謝魯明哲召委的諮詢"},{"start":11134.452,"end":11136.114,"text":"接下來邀請廖先祥委員發言請陳主委"},{"start":11160.199,"end":11189.135,"text":"好 主委好委員長這個我們的我不只單指我們政府工程啦其實整個台灣工程界非常的亂啦常常包商啦打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬"},{"start":11190.035,"end":11191.537,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":11207.498,"end":11207.678,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":11233.029,"end":11250.623,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11252.274,"end":11274.302,"text":"拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係"},{"start":11275.202,"end":11291.407,"text":"不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。"},{"start":11292.367,"end":11319.742,"text":"對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包腦包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那"},{"start":11321.443,"end":11335.759,"text":"目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候"},{"start":11337.383,"end":11338.864,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":11361.912,"end":11362.933,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":11374.383,"end":11385.426,"text":"就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一次錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下午廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障"},{"start":11402.99,"end":11409.253,"text":"所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商委員好 因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態而且會有可能層層的分包這是營建的實務"},{"start":11426.656,"end":11444.025,"text":"那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限"},{"start":11445.065,"end":11466.346,"text":"另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用這個監督付款的機制那監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快"},{"start":11467.246,"end":11477.893,"text":"因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面"},{"start":11480.507,"end":11498.866,"text":"當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個"},{"start":11499.907,"end":11515.597,"text":"就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛"},{"start":11516.337,"end":11539.819,"text":"那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商"},{"start":11541.638,"end":11558.246,"text":"我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了"},{"start":11559.206,"end":11581.626,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的"},{"start":11581.986,"end":11607.303,"text":"而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多"},{"start":11609.164,"end":11635.369,"text":"但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛"},{"start":11636.269,"end":11650.907,"text":"好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法"},{"start":11653.71,"end":11681.207,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案"},{"start":11681.827,"end":11710.348,"text":"因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳那有沒有目標哪時候送行政院而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對有沒有目標哪時候送行政院送來教委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論道志偉請委員支持好不好再麻煩好謝謝謝謝指揮謝謝主席好謝謝廖先祥委員"},{"start":11713.325,"end":11715.186,"text":"接下來邀請徐副會委員發言。謝謝主席。我們有請工程會陳主委。請陳主委。"},{"start":11737.29,"end":11765.415,"text":"委員長主委主委好主委我想今年有陸續有好幾個颱風造成屏東的一些基礎建設的一個嚴重的受損尤其是我們這個11月份的三坨爾很多屏東的所長燒得迷迷茫茫那我想請教主委因為現在屏東縣提出大概有104件的負災工程總預算大概2.41億那這部分目前我們已經報到工程會那不曉得這個目前處理的進度到哪裡"},{"start":11766.115,"end":11777.278,"text":"好,跟我們報告,屏東就兩個颱風一個凱米一個山陀爾嘛,凱米那時候合了144件,總經費5.38億,那麼縣府現在在規劃設計發包中,那這部分是確定的,就是縣府來發包。山陀爾的部分有提了104件,總經費2.4億,那預計在12月2號工程會會來審議。"},{"start":11791.201,"end":11817.575,"text":"我們會盡速來完成這個事業主委這點還是要特別拜託您因為我們的鄉親現在尤其我們像訪寮那個提案破了一個大洞現在是先用緊急用消防快跟這個太空幫先動起來但是大家也會歡樂後面現在極端氣候的天候狀況真的沒辦法把握說什麼時候會再造成很大的一個災損所以大家都希望我們能夠加快來核定盡快來施工這部分因為我知道我們"},{"start":11819.256,"end":11834.812,"text":"公共工程委員會這邊也很用心但是這個部分後續能不能再把這個時程再壓縮因為像我們現在十幾分發生的嘛到12月2號審查然後再來這個沒發報這個程序上跟各位後續有沒有辦法再把這個時間再壓縮快一點"},{"start":11837.072,"end":11859.29,"text":"目前工程會的做法就是說會親自到現場各單位在審議之前就會去看了基本上就可以大致確定說要核多少然後審議就很快所以我們會在12月2號這一天就迅速來完成當然也希望縣政府在經費核發之後能夠進行設計發包的作業來改善相關的災損"},{"start":11866.765,"end":11894.774,"text":"呃,主委我想這個縣政府這邊也責無旁貸,我們也會請縣政府這邊加速從這個討論這個設計的程序先做完了,不過就是說因爲我們現在這次的復建的需求有涵蓋的道路、橋樑跟水利設施。我真的要注意齁,這陣子,呃,前陣子去有些縣市勘災的時候,除了針對災損的一個復建工程之外,也有特別提到我們一個防災韌性跟超前規劃的一些,自身防洪也好,這個,呃,"},{"start":11896.894,"end":11899.795,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":11924.163,"end":11951.714,"text":"當然過去的設施排水設施可能量能不足導致會淹水但是我們希望將來的水利治理邏輯希望能夠不要造成生命財產的損失或者是長時間的不便但是如果因為急降雨等等因為水溝等等量能不足雖然會淹水但是希望能夠迅速解決迅速的來排水當然也希望有些設施能夠分擔"},{"start":11952.534,"end":11980.811,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":11981.407,"end":12004.354,"text":"這個分紅這樣的概念來做新的一些水利設施主委這一點因為我們屏東這個幅員遼闊而且我們這個從這個山區很多都是第三區這個一個有可能一年的雨量給你2、3天給你漏掉所以從山區下來會經過我們一些保安林地也好一些山坡地甚至台塘的農田"},{"start":12005.194,"end":12033.109,"text":"若來到我們的品地的時候,雨量真的非常非常的大剛剛主委講得很好就是說我們未來也希望針對跨部會的一個整合把這個所謂的一個治山防洪的部分也好還有包含這個我們區排甚至農田水利署的一個灌溉的排水然後整個能夠來做一個盤點把這個整個治水的這個部分能夠把它做一個有效的一個處理這樣可以減少水患的一個機會這部分"},{"start":12034.77,"end":12036.312,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":12057.293,"end":12060.036,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":12089.281,"end":12107.857,"text":"委員好主任我想上次我有在問那個交通部分先就是說因為我們這個颱風期間造成一個停電的問題其實造成我們這個基地台通訊幾乎都中斷那這個比較麻煩的就是說像我們這個很多的鄉鎮公所"},{"start":12108.758,"end":12129.551,"text":"一般是指揮中心,結果因為停電的關係,通訊不良,所以造成很多的指揮的工作,面臨很大的一個挑戰。交通部這邊有允諾要協助,請中央電信來幫忙,但是我們有發現林邊鄉有做了一個高抗災的一個基地台,有發揮一定的效果。"},{"start":12130.051,"end":12157.002,"text":"那未來我們NCC是不是可以協調我們相關的電信業者針對像屏東這樣子一個容易受風災影響的區域也當然來強化這個通訊的一個品質然後提升一個救災的一個能量目前那個高抗災這部分主要是數位部那邊在處理不過那個委員的這個指示我會請我們同仁可能在這個主要這些容易易受災地區再檢討一下然後把這個資料再交給那個數位部電信業者部分就要麻煩你們來幫忙來溝通"},{"start":12158.923,"end":12178.949,"text":"因為這個確實是對我們這個災害的時候發生很大的一個作用這是將來可能會更更這種情況會更多那主委那那我想針對最近那個詐騙集團會利用所謂的一個網路電話的一個詐騙的一個行徑也非常的囂張那目前我們NCC有沒有做什麼樣一個防範作為"},{"start":12180.369,"end":12203.239,"text":"對,謝謝委員提醒這個問題因為最近我們是確實有發現有兩個案例已經有利用網路電話的這個情況所以目前我們已經在修我們的號碼管理辦法將來的除了說他自己是自己供自己企業裡面內部用的之外其他如果說假設你是要收攏那個網際網路來的這些訊幕的話然後你要用要銜接到"},{"start":12204.5,"end":12229.294,"text":"那個公共電信網路就這一塊的話我們會跟蘇緯夫在協調也在修改號碼管理辦法將來這些業者都必須要申請07年現在上有政策校對策了照編集團他們的手法日新月異你們提了一個新的政策他馬上就變了一個方式來處理這份請委員放心我們在修改這個法令的同時我們有相關的政策也已經請電信業者在配合了"},{"start":12229.67,"end":12244.951,"text":"不過這部分因為我們也是擔心現在尤其鄉下很多老人家被詐騙的情形非常的嚴重所以針對相關的一些宣導作為應該要結合我們相關的部會一起到針對這個偏鄉部會應該加強一個宣導我們利用各種途徑要加強宣導"},{"start":12245.992,"end":12260.138,"text":"對,因為我們很擔心這個老人家,真的就是被詐騙的一個罪狀。我們除了宣導之外,其實也有其他一些措施,比如說請業者就利用這個AI的這個偵測系統,或者是說有一些簡訊部分的話,我們也事先攔阻。"},{"start":12261.218,"end":12281.56,"text":"主委那最後因為12月1號我們委員剩下三位我們還是很擔心整個NCC的業務會不會受到影響那這部分主委這邊跟我們下班的同仁有沒有什麼樣的疑問作為我們昨天也跟委員委員會議結束之後也跟三位委員我們三位也做了一次檢討"},{"start":12282.781,"end":12308.356,"text":"在既有的58項業務部分當然我們本來就可以不一定要經過委員會議的這我們會更去進行另外在104項業務部分的話我們委員也相當負責任也就是說你104項業務如果假設有個別業務產生的話雖然我們會開所謂的之一會議最後可能沒有辦法去做最後的決定但是是不是一定要到這種程序我們三位委員到時候會再做一次的過濾就104項業務的部分"},{"start":12312.619,"end":12341.476,"text":"但是我想我們也不能因為現在人委員減少所以造成這些民生的一些問題甚至這些詐騙的案件這個變成我們查緝不利這個不能拿這個當藉口啦所以這個部分怎麼樣去做最有力的一個人力的一個調適要請主秘這邊真的要加油啦我們全會同仁一定會盡力不管有沒有法令所有這些在沒有法令的情形底下相關措施我們還是會進行好好謝謝"},{"start":12343.758,"end":12344.679,"text":"徐富奎委員林淑芬委員工程會陳主委"},{"start":12369.185,"end":12370.907,"text":"黃陽明先生提出的問題"},{"start":12376.434,"end":12400.21,"text":"所以我今天很難得必須要來就教於你第一個採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭域時的調解這個裁判者是涉到政府的錢是人民納稅的血和錢跟廠商的利益是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭等於是這樣的位置請問主委"},{"start":12403.692,"end":12411.318,"text":"法院審理的時候法庭在開庭的時候你覺得一個負責審判的法官一下子扮演業者的代理人律師的角色一下子站在業者的利益這一邊然後呢一下子又變成法官然後又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色然後還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判"},{"start":12430.274,"end":12441.731,"text":"像這樣子又是法官又是律師然後負責開庭你可以接受嗎?根委員報告應該不是裁判者他是調解建議的提出者"},{"start":12442.622,"end":12444.183,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":12467.515,"end":12489.473,"text":"第二個呢如果有該迴避你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎不要 我要負責你 不要副主委我給你報告得很清楚齁他是一個調解他並不是裁判你剛剛講說他有利益迴避利益迴避的義務但我問你孔梵琦委員這樣子說好了啦齁大家"},{"start":12494.918,"end":12509.447,"text":"有很多律師職業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件恐律師這三年代理了三十幾件這一年超過十件由此可知喔你們的恐委員"},{"start":12511.588,"end":12517.812,"text":"就是專門打這一種官司你騙他當委員他可以獲得多大的好處然後你說他會利益迴避你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會然後他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力每次開會都要見面了壓力很大其他委員更不要講你們行政部門業務的承辦人沒有壓力嗎壓力很大那我再講"},{"start":12540.825,"end":12561.183,"text":"你這樣子騙他當申訴委員,你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎?其他不接這種案子的申訴委員,他們是傻瓜嗎?難道他們不會想說,我出去外面,我是申訴委員,我出去都攬生意,我若無罪,恐煩事,一樣我就說的?"},{"start":12564.386,"end":12583.742,"text":"是你鼓勵其他申訴委員大家一起來打這工程會委員的名號直接去工程界招攬生意這樣子你可以接受嗎只要做到表面上的利益迴避你就可以接受了嗎我今天來講從委員專門打這種官司然後成為申訴委員這個是不關尊敗壞的起點"},{"start":12593.252,"end":12606.204,"text":"關爭敗壞的起點。委員這樣指責太對孔委員不公平對工程委員我沒有講他我講制度你即是球員又是裁判你即是業者的律師又是法官這個就是關爭敗壞"},{"start":12608.866,"end":12631.161,"text":"外外的羞辱到的是你我不是在講孔律師我講的是你他有多少代理多少政府案件不管他自己就是工程爭議的這一些案件的代理人你不要講說他幫政府打多少官司他現在幫有工程爭議到你們委員到你們工程會來申訴的案件"},{"start":12636.104,"end":12655.797,"text":"三年三十幾件今年十幾件而這不是這不是一般律師勒他是專門辦這種案件的律師所以有問題的是你不是孔律師是不接受委員這個申訴委員的陳主委你有問題我沒有問題"},{"start":12657.469,"end":12657.609,"text":"主席"},{"start":12678.524,"end":12683.889,"text":"他這樣子我在講話他這樣干擾我我有叫他回答嗎?審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料透過資訊不對等可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊很容易相信業者就會相信說欸這個委員這個律師真的假無告然這樣是誰的損失?調解每一個案子都要政府物價調整的"},{"start":12704.207,"end":12709.991,"text":"增加預算的都是民脂民膏你主委讓這種有業者的代理人專門打業者代理人來當審議委員扛人民之愷賺更多政府的錢這樣子你可以接受嗎?"},{"start":12734.207,"end":12734.688,"text":"為什麼要公開他的姓名是為了民主的問責"},{"start":12737.918,"end":12763.872,"text":"你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一"},{"start":12766.613,"end":12790.247,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12790.367,"end":12806.517,"text":"不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話"},{"start":12808.525,"end":12819.816,"text":"為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?"},{"start":12832.528,"end":12850.618,"text":"諮詢委員諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要取得各執法的高情在這裡為這一些利益到底你能不能接受"},{"start":12863.308,"end":12873.651,"text":"不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看"},{"start":12892.887,"end":12908.764,"text":"主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖你就是不敢面對今天針對委員的質詢我們再請工程會我們會後再審慎地進行檢討謝謝那接下來邀請蔡其昌委員"},{"start":12921.749,"end":12924.35,"text":"謝謝主席請今天NCC是黃竹密黃竹密來竹密好"},{"start":12951.374,"end":12954.178,"text":"主秘我在有關詐騙的這些建議、要求"},{"start":12960.262,"end":12978.601,"text":"NCC有一些回應本席覺得很好但是我對這個回應我開始覺得你們的做法好像目標是要打炸防炸但是可能方法上會有很大的問題本席過去一直在講說這個企業在發送簡訊"},{"start":12982.537,"end":13001.568,"text":"這個我們過去譬如說政府現在有這個類似像中華電信什麼111啦那個通用檢碼的部分通用檢碼對那本席認為通用檢碼的運用應該到至少從大型的企業譬如說像銀行、政府部門銀行家已經開始了"},{"start":13002.749,"end":13012.868,"text":"對對對我知道所以他都已經開始做那這個是好好的事情因為我們防詐主要讓消費者知道這個簡訊是真的還是假的所以當你"},{"start":13013.973,"end":13015.294,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13033.257,"end":13061.035,"text":"你們在11月13號公布一個新規定在5天以後要實施那這個規定裡面的重點就是這個簡訊如果帶有URL或者短網址或者電話號碼這些都要去要求要求跟業者進行登記三大業者進行登記就是我這個公司想要發的簡訊內容有這種短網址啦有電話啦那我就要先去登記"},{"start":13062.418,"end":13089.928,"text":"好那所以換言之你們這個政策要做的是什麼做的就是說只要要發這種大宗簡訊的有這些內含內文含這些東西的我就先把你控管住了對沒錯好那現在問題來了那個主秘你現在知道多少人在多少業者要發這個簡訊在三大業者那裡排隊嗎我最近的統他們給我的資料是說一年大概有一億則"},{"start":13091.475,"end":13093.196,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13111.311,"end":13112.452,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13133.849,"end":13149.084,"text":"方便迅速之間要取得一個平衡了那委員您在說的是說現在電信業者有在抱怨說那個我們有一些沒有辦法必須要應該說解禁代發業主要是解禁代發業者因為電信業者這邊大概都是會以自動化的方式來處理"},{"start":13150.205,"end":13178.23,"text":"但是在簡訊帶發業者那邊因為過去很方便網際網路那邊他只要看你有繳費他就把訊號就丟到電信業者就送出去了現在主要大概都是簡訊帶發業者那邊可能會稍微會有點complain說這樣的結果可能會造成他們在服務上面的一些延待跟委員報告說因為這個制度其實剛開始實施了所以難免在實施的這個在過渡期間也許會有一些"},{"start":13180.47,"end":13204.68,"text":"執言但是我想大概大概過一陣子之後應該這個整個的這個大家溝通完了之後應該會解決這個問題我其實是這樣子我剛剛一開始就跟你肯定說你想要做防詐打詐我肯定但是方法極糟啦方法極糟啦你10月13公佈18號14歲現在大家就等於生一邊走了就有一個簡單講啦不要講到詐騙我的服務處要發一個"},{"start":13210.776,"end":13229.202,"text":"聖誕節的簡訊我一樣因為我量大嘛我可能有兩萬通我要透過代發業者發我也不可以嘛因為我上面有留您最真誠的朋友服務專線幾號我的服務處的號碼嘛有電話號碼因為委員是名人啦他們可能還更還更擔心我的意思就是要告訴你說"},{"start":13230.325,"end":13258.34,"text":"您齁要做這個事情我沒有意見目標是對的嘛你是要打炸防炸嘛但是你公佈到實施就五天的時間嘛電信業者都不知道怎麼消化消化這些人來申請他要進入白名單嘛所以我的意思只是告訴你說你們今天回去應該趕快去研議啦就是說你沒練就時間稍微久一點沒練就比較多人我們想辦法問電信業者你有沒有能力吃下處理量多少"},{"start":13260.169,"end":13285.774,"text":"民怨就不會起,這是配套嘛這個動作其實我大概我已經預告兩個月了啦中華電信比較快啦那那個兩家電信業者到18號那現在甄傑的問題其實都是在簡訊代發業者那一端啦我的意思是說我其實沒有在乎是哪一端嘛因為簡訊代發業者他所承受的還是我們嘛"},{"start":13286.594,"end":13311.59,"text":"例如說我只要講我個人就好了嘛我也是透過檢驗單位者去幫我發嘛那他告訴我說我就是不可以做嘛你現在懂我的意思嗎就是說我們政府很多的政策之所以失敗利益都是良善的但是如果我們在設計整個實施的程序跟方法沒有把它想的配套完善一點就會導致民怨又起啦"},{"start":13312.55,"end":13326.201,"text":"這個民怨不是只有幾個待發業者,因為待發業者他就是告訴我說你不可以還,因為我就是沒辦法,我就要跟你排隊嘛。你現在懂我的意思嗎?所以抱怨的一定是我,不是待發業者嘛。待發業者他當然也抱怨於他就做不成立,他也抱怨嘛。"},{"start":13328.052,"end":13353.442,"text":"我很贊成,你們真的要有作為去管,我幫你肯定嘛,很好,你如果想要打詐防詐而且動作積極,那你預告兩個月他造成塞車,如果我是NCC我就直接處罰,我告訴你兩個月前我就告訴你你為什麼不做,我就直接處罰你電信業者了啊,你就把我的話當放屁,所以那我就處罰你,我們是有公權力的,所以你不能把"},{"start":13355.436,"end":13368.818,"text":"電信業者怠惰不作為好如果是真的啦如果是真的那現在變成換下游的人在抱怨說我們做的這個政策好像一副那我當然知道打詐最重要嘛可是我們要怎麼讓"},{"start":13370.923,"end":13391.13,"text":"這個工作不會因為做A損B一下做B又損A我們怎麼讓A、B都可以雖然不能全滿意但都可以接受這就是政治能力我們這個政府的官員就是要有這個政治能力我只是今天來我看到太多人在抱怨我也收到很多的這個陳請我們馬上檢討"},{"start":13393.171,"end":13420.258,"text":"好不好馬上想一個方法怎麼可以快速消化我是不知道你們有很多手段可以做嗎怎麼樣快速去消化讓這個聲音可以下來但是做這件事情是對的就是防詐打詐這件事情本席絕對百分之一百的支持是謝謝委員好謝謝好那請那個陳主委請工程會陳主委主委我這邊只有一個小事你回去可能要特別再注意一下我看了一下"},{"start":13421.465,"end":13443.649,"text":"我們這個永續發展目標的資源解釋報告裡面這個重視生態永續這一一個單項那這個單項裡面我們有一個規定就是我們會去各個全國各機關查核需辦理生態檢核案件的這個情形那表格我們也都有但是我就發現從109年110年111到112好像這個案那個你看一下你有那個表嗎"},{"start":13452.233,"end":13466.84,"text":"那個案件數好像這個逐年增加這個表格在這裡你看這個案件數好像好像這個逐年從109年的21、29、14、48、40好像後面這個1、2、1、3開始這個數量都比明顯前三年來的高那我們的同仁有提到說這個工程人員對生態的認知較為不足"},{"start":13481.411,"end":13503.816,"text":"那本席是建議就是說那就是我們如果知道原因是工程人員對生態的認知不足對於永續沒有什麼概念那我們其實應該工程會發揮一點這種教育的角色怎麼把這些工程人員受訓啊或者是可能也辦過受訓那方法不好那我們可不可以想個什麼方法讓他們有一點這種概念就是說"},{"start":13505.296,"end":13516.004,"text":"這個一方面輔導一方面要適度有一些懲戒的手段讓這個工作得以持續不然的話我們再往後退步這數字比較難看主委你覺得呢"},{"start":13518.223,"end":13534.113,"text":"委員報告我們大概有幾個工具第一個就是在機關如果要提報金職獎的部分在評分裡面生態查核是一個加分第二個就是我們有委託相關的專業團體辦理生態檢核的研習"},{"start":13537.495,"end":13563.308,"text":"那明年度有一個兩百萬的預算雖然不多但是就是針對機關或者其他對生態檢測有興趣的舉辦研習這部分是有在做那畢竟整個國家的這個公共工程非常多當然有的機關對生態檢測並不是那麼熟悉而且是這近幾年的事情而已所以我們會加強宣導跟教育推動"},{"start":13563.948,"end":13592.3,"text":"好,沒問題啦,我是說齁,主委這個數字我都是看數字管理啦齁,我一路把你們都問這些數字的事情所以我的意思是說我只能從你們提供的這些數據裡面來看這一項工作我們同仁到底落實的狀況怎麼樣阿至少我們如果不要讓他說好像你看從20幾件變40幾件齁,如果用%數來講這倍增了所以注意一下那個數字就是說到底原因出在哪裡,怎麼讓它降低好不好,阿你就自己想一個方法來做啦齁"},{"start":13593.2,"end":13596.301,"text":"OK好謝謝好謝謝蔡其昌委員接下來邀請尤浩偉人發言好謝謝趙偉那有請NCC好請NCC黃祖密"},{"start":13626.332,"end":13642.709,"text":"委員長主席早那延續剛才蔡啟昌委員所提的題目那本辦公室也有接到一些陳情電話那就是針對這個NCC實施這個簡訊發送的實名制登錄政策11月18號之後那"},{"start":13643.59,"end":13671.906,"text":"有些鄉親他們在傳送這個喜宴的登記啊那他們是用Google表單他們到時候傳了之後他們到時候就沒有辦法那包括那個學生學校研究生他們在做這個問卷調查在量化的部分那他們傳送了之後那同樣的話就被認為是詐騙訊息那因為在這個要符合白名班的規範才能夠使用那"},{"start":13672.566,"end":13693.439,"text":"但是一般民眾他們在使用這種訊息發送還附帶這個縮短連結那他們其實並不是所謂的商業企業但是卻導致這個第三方平台過過表達訊息發送的時候他就被擋下就被認為是詐騙那關鍵在於簡訊中的網址DNS他這樣子被認定上他沒有通過白名單的認證"},{"start":13694.58,"end":13717.613,"text":"那今天當然說NCC在處理相關的訊息跟措施他是希望防詐打詐那我們都認同但是在這樣子的措施之下卻導致一般的民生也好包括學術也好在這個訊息的傳遞上還就變成沒有辦法符合規定而無法傳送那這個問題小結下怎麼解決"},{"start":13718.813,"end":13733.239,"text":"跟委員報告,首先呢,大概就是,我想那個,這個措施實際上是一個,目前看來是一個還OK的措施了。那現在問題是在執行的技術上面啦,我們有待,有待精進啦。特別是說那個一般民眾的這個50折的部分的話,"},{"start":13733.999,"end":13757.438,"text":"如果說就是我們也不停的一直在透過各式各樣的途徑跟當事人也請電信公司就是再詢問一下如果假設一般民眾有在同時一次要發送50則以上的簡訊的話那他務必要在後端要去做好KYC你要做好KYC的話他還是可以發送了那委員您在提的是另外一端叫做企業客戶的部分"},{"start":13758.118,"end":13785.056,"text":"當然民眾並不是企業客戶啊但是民眾卻在傳送訊息的時候被認定為企業客戶啊如果說假設民眾有因為一次傳送超過50折的話那這部分我們會再請我們電信...那您覺得在溝通的過程中大約民眾不管是在學術、喜宴或是活動邀請上的這一種方式甚至說他們在有獎徵打或是在比賽票選的時候那他們在這種的用表單的方式傳遞的時候"},{"start":13786.357,"end":13809.284,"text":"那大約是可以用到簡訊提升到多少則數才不會去擾民目前的話因為我們過去我們有統計統計過的結果了大概一般我們一般一般正常的話特殊情形當然例外了那正常情況大概一天發到50則是差不多超過就是一般人的這種的使用習慣那如果說假設你一次真的有一次要發送到50則以上的話"},{"start":13810.565,"end":13829.505,"text":"您可以打電話到客服那邊去跟電信公司的客服講說我這一次是不是讓我可以開通到50則以上那這個部分我本來是要在這裡要建議NCC因為一般的民眾他們在喜宴或是學術研究或是在票選他們並不知道說還要跟NCC或是還要跟電信業者講這一塊"},{"start":13830.666,"end":13845.383,"text":"那我是覺得在這種的設定上啊那要合理啊商業歸商業民用歸民用啊那本席還是要建議說在這樣子的一個處理上不管在則數以及包括在宣導上它還是與改善"},{"start":13845.623,"end":13874.66,"text":"我們在這種常態性的規定之外是不是要做一些例外的這些設定反正這個就交給你來讓社會大眾知道另外再補充延續的剛才我們魯明哲委員所提到的NCC它編的這個律師訴訟費那它從150萬再到710萬再到1000多萬那本席還是要請教那這裡面訴訟有關於是中天相關的訴訟案件大約就是多少件以及多少比例目前的話中天大概"},{"start":13876.007,"end":13877.329,"text":"總共是26件那花了多少的訴訟費?"},{"start":13891.577,"end":13904.904,"text":"不好意思,如果是從108年6月到113年9月30那個拆除案的部分目前的金額是619萬7千元,那單件是平均12萬多那本來是建議"},{"start":13907.365,"end":13934.32,"text":"這個中天的這個換照的部分我在想NCC還是不要做其他的人的打手啊編了律師的訴訟費在強害這個媒體自由跟獨立性那本席還是建議說在這種的律師的訴訟費的使用還如果說經費來講是因為中天關台之後還不斷的往上編之後本席來講這樣子的律師訴訟費跟這種打手行為還是極不合理"},{"start":13934.62,"end":13949.246,"text":"在我們不以換照之前其實就有陸續的輸送在進行這是不斷的提高這個看得出來的數據大家沒關係這就檢討啦好不好謝謝那我接著要請那個我們陳靜德陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":13954.114,"end":13978.309,"text":"本席在這裡還是感謝還是感謝對於我們南投財務重建的協助那在預算出的質詢力上都非常的質詢力非常的有成效但是本席還是針對剛才大家持續討論的不管是恐犯期或者是包括申訴審議委員會名單那以及包括諮詢委員會的名單本席在這裡還是要跟主委以及包括工程會來討論"},{"start":13980.971,"end":14001.81,"text":"其實剛才在提案的部分都有在聽都有在了解其實今天像國策顧問還有行政院顧問、縣政顧問到施工所顧問那其他都是公開資訊那如果說今天來講在公共程委員會他的所謂的諮詢委員那他為何無法公開"},{"start":14002.671,"end":14029.587,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說申訴委員啦申訴委員的功能有申訴功能所以等同書院所以他有公開那這個諮詢委員部分那麼當事人如果他不同意公開我們也沒有辦法公開我們必須去徵詢這個諮詢委員的意見主委這其實我剛才聽也都聽很久了這三個小時都在聽這個相關的訊息那本席在這裡還是要建議啊"},{"start":14031.208,"end":14055.723,"text":"不管是政府機關在這個諮詢委員他其實都像是一個顧問性質不管他是案件記酬也好或是有幾職顧問因為像現任顧問或是包括許多的現任顧問有有幾職也有無幾職義務職那如果說像諮詢委員的話他如果在機關來講他沒有辦法去做公開的話那其實反而成為一種黑箱那其實今天的諮詢委員他應該是一個榮譽的事情"},{"start":14058.405,"end":14087.754,"text":"那如果把這樣子的一個諮詢委員他能夠讓社會大眾了解的話也更強化了政府機關的一個公信力或是包括他要諮詢的管道那如果說今天來講沒有公開變成說公家機關又成為要諮詢的管道或唯一的窗口的時候反而任何的關說的壓力會變得集中在公務員手上那今天成為諮詢委員本來就不應該成為關說的窗口"},{"start":14088.447,"end":14114.98,"text":"那但是諮詢委員本來就有一個他專業角色的一個公正性那如果說連地方的調解委員會他都是公開訊息我相信能夠擔任諮詢委員就應該是經得起考驗那我也相信不管是以前的主委當您擔任主委的時候所聘任的諮詢委員他們都應該要經得起考驗那這個相信也沒有問題所以本席還在這裡說出就是希望能夠把這個諮詢委員會的名單"},{"start":14117.621,"end":14138.533,"text":"還有60名單給交通委員會的委員做一份參考我們回去徵詢諮詢委員的意願不過這沒有公開這件事情並不是我就任以來才不公開我知道是以前一直以來所以我就說這些諮詢委員的責任不一定說是在於說誰而是在於說今天是一路以來聘下來的"},{"start":14139.594,"end":14154.9,"text":"到底他適不適任以及說包括他是不是有被討論的但是我覺得至少今天的諮詢文都應該是為這個工程會加分那不僅是工程會包括各部會相關的諮詢文其實也應該要公開因為這種是一個榮譽職嘛"},{"start":14157.941,"end":14185.222,"text":"那也是為政府機關在協助的角色嘛那在今天本來來講他就不用擔心說他會不會成為關稅的窗口因為他本來就應該具備他的公正性在那也不應該讓公家機關的公務員來背負著任何被諮詢的時候被人家質疑的一個罪所以本期還是建議不僅是其他部會包括工程會可以針對諮詢委員在一個月內還徵詢完了之後還就做公開"},{"start":14185.802,"end":14195.565,"text":"那另外不願意公開的諮詢委員我們也要慎重的來思考他不願意被公開的原因在哪裡謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝油浩委員發言好 謝謝接下來邀請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":14215.232,"end":14217.636,"text":"主席主席請NCC請NCC黃竹密委員好"},{"start":14227.836,"end":14249.666,"text":"總編好,總編今天有幾個問題來跟您討論根據NCC於7月26日第129次委員會議中決議修正國家通訊傳播委員會議審議事項及授權內部單位辦理事項作業要點NCC分層負責明細表委員會議議事要點及法律作業要點"},{"start":14251.974,"end":14281.66,"text":"要點修正後總計58項事項將依修正規定可授權主委或是代理主委召開委員之一會議後決定請問主秘手機上市的審查是否包含這58項?是這個分兩塊一塊那個手機手機如果說假設你是要申請刑事認證的話那因為在手機的那個他第一次進口的那個那個那個樣品的部分的話他要經過核准那這部分的話是我目前已經啊從原來的許可"},{"start":14282.541,"end":14308.181,"text":"所以我這邊針對會議的審議事項還有授權內部的作業要點第7點還有第15點是規範以後發布的任何手機都不會再受到委員人數不足的影響請問主委本席說的沒錯吧我們看到第7點還有第15點那接下來會不會受到影響這邊先跟主委做確認不會受到影響上次是因為我們有4位委員4位委員都夠了所以可以開委員會沒關係這邊本席接下來要唸一段話"},{"start":14309.042,"end":14326.963,"text":"若第16條修正草案透過NCC委員委員會可能只剩下三位委員那依相關法律規定委員人數未過半無法召開委員會那在手機通訊產品還有審驗部分也可能無法處理那蘋果相關產品審驗則不受影響請問主秘這段話是不是你說的"},{"start":14333.635,"end":14350.244,"text":"主任可能不記得這是你在11月13日接受泰報訪問的時候所說的那7月26日NCC的新聞稿還有媒體報導都表示相關辦法修訂後以後發布的任何手機將不再受到委員人數不足影響那本席剛剛也和你勸了你也說不會受影響"},{"start":14351.75,"end":14375.048,"text":"但你11月13日的時候你又說手機上市審查會受影響是,那就是因為我會受影響所以我把它從原來的,因為把它從審議要點裡面那你剛剛是在質詢台上面公然說謊還是你11月13日的時候說謊是,所以委員您把11月13日跟7月26日的日期標出來因為那是經過我檢討過後才不會產生影響"},{"start":14378.868,"end":14403.809,"text":"那所以會不會受影響?現在不會受影響那你們看到今年5月8號的時候溫柏中說如果委員人數不足恐導致委員會不能運作可能iPhone16、17等新機認證將無法審查那26號的時候NCC是不是又做了手機的審查作業要點?因為當時就是委員會保留事項必須要從委員會保留事項裡面把它移除那iPhone16是什麼時候在台灣順利上市的?95"},{"start":14407.642,"end":14412.338,"text":" iPhone 95年就95年我說iPhone16iPhone16"},{"start":14415.163,"end":14437.825,"text":"這不是你們NCC在處理的嗎?不是,那個委員您剛才在問的是在5月的那個10點我們翁代主委那時候是翁副主委iPhone16是在9月20號在台灣順利上市可是主委你11月13日的時候又說了手機通訊產品聲音部分也可能無法處理是誰在鬼打牆?"},{"start":14438.865,"end":14439.866,"text":"那不是我們說的"},{"start":14454.096,"end":14477.788,"text":"那不是你們說的,那你們不用處理嗎?是誰在帶方向?誰在放假消息?NCC不用出來說明嗎?呃,跟委員報告,這個,可能我不知道這個,這個太報啊,他的前後文是什麼啦。但是我,委員您剛才在說的。受訪的人是祖密尼吧?我不是說謊,我是。我說受訪,受訪。受訪,哎,受訪是我。對啊,那你怎麼會不記得你那一天受訪的時候你說了什麼?"},{"start":14481.28,"end":14482.521,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14494.09,"end":14516.394,"text":"我們看第八點的規定我們看我們看基地台訊號的部分那基地台的執照換補發已經歸類為案件分類授權的主管業務單位辦理並依照分層負責明細進行公文核決成績的相關就業的作業也就是說除了法律修正以外基地台其他相關的業務基本上是由各分處直接辦理即可根本也不用來提交委員會來做審議這個說法沒有錯吧這個沒有錯"},{"start":14520.635,"end":14521.556,"text":"今天無論NCC委員人數是否充足都不會影響基地台的相關業務,這樣說沒有錯吧?"},{"start":14540.476,"end":14542.238,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":14557.232,"end":14558.233,"text":"公共工程委員會單位預算公共工程委員會單位預算"},{"start":14577.125,"end":14595.271,"text":"基地台相關業務的話包含設備進口跟基地台的架設以及基地台審驗還有執照的取得它有不同的程序設備的部分它可以進口沒有問題但是問題是它在審驗的部分我們也可以持續進行但是最後那個執照的取得部分就會受影響了"},{"start":14596.715,"end":14610.165,"text":"那接下來我們看到詐騙的部分目前詐騙相關的執法細節已經大家都修法完成了那業務也都是由各區處來做負責那除非要再修訂相關的執法才會召開委員會那即使NCC委員人數不足對打擊詐騙會有影響嗎?"},{"start":14613.147,"end":14619.073,"text":"有影響比如說最簡單的就是最近我們為了網路詐騙從網際網路來的詐騙電話部分我們在修改070那個號碼管理辦法我們目前在預購當中從108年到112年增加了多少件詐騙案"},{"start":14631.545,"end":14655.067,"text":"從三萬四千多件暴增到二十二萬九千七百多件,這個增幅高達百分之五百五十七所以我們的防詐手段也一直持續在進行當中進行了什麼?打在1.5嗎?不是,那個是行政院的版本,現在是2.0了第一部分的話是語音的部分、簡訊的部分"},{"start":14656.324,"end":14675.143,"text":"這個我們在持續進行當中另外的話我們後續也針對不同的這些途徑比如說網路電話我們這個也在持續進行當中這一切的措施必須要由委員會議正常進行我才有辦法進行法律的修改、政策的擬定"},{"start":14677.264,"end":14693.247,"text":"我們也看到這段時間從108年到112年國人看到只是NCC不作為在過去王國忠還有陳耀祥分別擔任政府主委的這段期間交出了這個令人折舌的打炸成績單案"},{"start":14694.589,"end":14696.39,"text":"主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":14718.576,"end":14719.497,"text":"接下來邀請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":14743.223,"end":14744.984,"text":"公共工程委員會主委陳主委"},{"start":14756.986,"end":14757.467,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":14775.29,"end":14794.43,"text":"主委應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個禁令的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了那該修法規的修法規該"},{"start":14796.172,"end":14796.692,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":14819.012,"end":14843.853,"text":"剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?"},{"start":14846.907,"end":14868.782,"text":"您應該沒看過啦因為這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所定的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計劃中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標"},{"start":14875.967,"end":14881.376,"text":"那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個"},{"start":14882.594,"end":14907.766,"text":"重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴厲現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫"},{"start":14908.726,"end":14923.273,"text":"那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表有可能不是做得很好"},{"start":14924.533,"end":14953.088,"text":"現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實"},{"start":14955.266,"end":14977.637,"text":"誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查"},{"start":14978.507,"end":14978.967,"text":"檢測檢核表檢測檢核表檢測檢核表檢測檢核表檢測檢核表"},{"start":15003.181,"end":15004.002,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":15022.588,"end":15049.727,"text":"你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那呢都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?"},{"start":15051.328,"end":15068.97,"text":"以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保"},{"start":15070.223,"end":15089.419,"text":"水利及水保,我剛講是機關,機關是水利署做的比較前進一點,那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位,其他都還沒"},{"start":15091.626,"end":15108.679,"text":"主委、副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料"},{"start":15109.64,"end":15123.902,"text":"那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引"},{"start":15125.049,"end":15153.217,"text":"明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK"},{"start":15155.822,"end":15158.847,"text":"所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?"},{"start":15161.072,"end":15188.932,"text":"如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了"},{"start":15189.934,"end":15193.003,"text":"各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦"},{"start":15195.629,"end":15220.839,"text":"我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到"},{"start":15221.059,"end":15247.491,"text":"那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在表說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳"},{"start":15248.311,"end":15249.033,"text":"和排的這個檢核表我覺得要"},{"start":15252.816,"end":15269.88,"text":"做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎"},{"start":15282.15,"end":15302.921,"text":"是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛"},{"start":15303.829,"end":15328.02,"text":"報告關於公共工程的碳排它有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要節能減碳對啊所以我是提醒說"},{"start":15329.321,"end":15346.807,"text":"既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準準則依據先搞定"},{"start":15348.267,"end":15375.866,"text":"再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便"},{"start":15377,"end":15402.709,"text":"結果大家都這樣子直接好像啊算算點點的啊來書面paperwork寫寫這樣就遵守我覺得也不應該是這樣子就是一些公共建設基本設計的審查是工程會如果我們的系統建置完備那在基本設計審查的時候就可以大概判斷在整個的碳排是多少這個是我們"},{"start":15404.189,"end":15406.171,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":15440.097,"end":15447.205,"text":"謝謝主席及格先進。有請NCC的長官。請叫黃祖密"},{"start":15459.707,"end":15475.992,"text":"你知道有簡訊111簡訊這個有被偽冒你知道吧對這個案例我已經知道了他有在高雄跟新竹都有各發可是我們看到ACC沒有作為啊這個而且你現在講的說透過這個他都透過2G轉發兩年只有抓到三台機器啊是你沒有資源還是沒有主動查"},{"start":15490.22,"end":15495.924,"text":"主要你注意看到喔今天早上11月28號今天早上剛通過行政院通過喔剛通過新世代打擊策略行動綱領剛通過"},{"start":15517.998,"end":15519.598,"text":"非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":15546.744,"end":15569.349,"text":"查到的偽造基地台和ACC敗訴哩為什麼敗訴啊?群雲為什麼敗訴啊?你不知道偽造基地台沒敗訴幹什麼?吃飯的啊跟委員報告一下就是法官對於我們加重委員會再加重處罰部分他認為那一個犯罪的時間跟我們採取的時間沒有一致所以他撥渾但我們已經有上訴了"},{"start":15570.905,"end":15574.546,"text":"三級、四級能不能查偽造基地台?"},{"start":15600.097,"end":15601.918,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":15617.944,"end":15635.47,"text":"跟委員報告2G的這個基地台的認證手機的認證方式比較弱一點3G、4G是雙方要認證所以他在這個做偽冒的所以3G、4G你們抓不到就對了不是抓不到是他根本進不了這個我們的網路他在詐騙你到網路市場去買就可以買到3G、4G3G、4G的手機是一回事對能不能夠詐騙到是另外一回事就已經有了沒有現在只有2G"},{"start":15647.674,"end":15650.958,"text":"阿現在就有3G、4G阿網路上都市面上可以買阿你們去買看看跟委員報告你們有沒有努力問下去去買看看有沒有是阿委員你現在問的是基地台啦對啊基地台我就跟你講基地台市面上沒有所謂的3G、4G買得到的3G、4G是手機不是基地台"},{"start":15667.896,"end":15675.377,"text":"所以市民站沒有?可是馬來西亞、泰國、韓國就有這種機器啊馬來西亞、韓國、泰國都有啊我們會加強我們在我們的電信公司的網路、網管這邊我們只要偵測到任何一個基地台有異常的使用行為的話我們的就會直接通報我們的電偵隊大隊長去針對這些現場去看我問你啊"},{"start":15699.212,"end":15726.582,"text":"馬來西亞、韓國、泰國有3G的偽造台偽造台這個對吧他們有什麼我不知道在台灣目前的話因為3G、4G必須要雙向認證所以呢即便他用這個技術他也詐騙不到現在目前的話就是因為2G的部分2G他只有一個Login的認證而已而沒有雙向認證所以這一部分的話我們才會有去年去年跟今年呢總共有三個案件所以你們2G是要雙向認證"},{"start":15728.01,"end":15731.171,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":15758.986,"end":15776.222,"text":"您可不可以針對我剛才提的問題,普及的現,二級的現況,以及三級、四級現在為什麼做不到,提一個書面報告可以嗎?可以嗎?好,我提個書面報告給委員。給我,還要給交通委員會。好,沒問題。好不好?沒問題。多久時間?"},{"start":15780.826,"end":15784.427,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":15809.124,"end":15810.265,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請陳主委。請陳主委。"},{"start":15842.683,"end":15870.446,"text":"委員好主委好這個公共工程委員會的預算不多五億左右那這個如果擴除這個人事費一般行政大概就是兩億左右所以不多但是你們的職責很重要很重要要去處理的不是只有你們的預算包含了"},{"start":15871.101,"end":15894.821,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15895.243,"end":15920.235,"text":"然後造成這個房屋房屋被淹埋所以有這樣的一個我只是幾部分的例子部分的案例來讓這個主委能夠了解這個每一次尤其是這個今年的在花蓮又有地震又有這個颱風然後又接二連三這些颱風"},{"start":15921.696,"end":15922.357,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":15951.041,"end":15952.562,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":15976.075,"end":15979.218,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":15989.79,"end":15991.891,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16011.28,"end":16026.68,"text":"所以在跟這個相關的機關尤其是地方政府要有讓他們能夠有瞭解這個我們就公共工程委員會重寬的也不是重寬了這是要徹底的把它整治"},{"start":16027.12,"end":16040.27,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通"},{"start":16057.097,"end":16069.906,"text":"還是還在審查中?我們康瑞颱風提報時間到11原本是多少?11月27那延到12月"},{"start":16072.165,"end":16074.207,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案單位預算"},{"start":16089.139,"end":16108.508,"text":"重建的部分內政部那邊有在補助屬於花蓮市政府、縣政府要執行的公共設施然後不足的部分扣除災損其他的工程委總共核定的12億多那不包括還未審查的山陀河或者康瑞還未審查之前的災損補助已經12億5000萬左右"},{"start":16112.009,"end":16134.417,"text":"這個我都知道我了解像包括海米颱風包括前面的0403的地震的這些災情我都了解因為我自己也是老公務員這個過去也曾經在公共工程委員會上下的一個機關過去我們當然延命會搬走了延命會搬走了"},{"start":16135.077,"end":16135.677,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":16150.686,"end":16178.865,"text":"就要招標就一直流標所以也常常會有這種狀況尤其在這個非常偏遠的地方所以這個部分這個地方政府所提報的也請這個公共工程委員會盡量我們可以請地方政府向這一類比較遠然後這個整個交通不變運送資產也不變成本會比較高所以地方政府應該可以寬列他的這個需求那我們審查的時候會注意到好非常謝謝"},{"start":16182.625,"end":16183.985,"text":"鄭千才委員楊瓊英委員工程會主委"},{"start":16205.255,"end":16219.405,"text":"主管好辛苦了我們來討論114年的預算在你公共工程企劃以及法規業務的部分你為了要健全工程採購法規的制度你編列了156萬4千元那比這個103年度是增加了"},{"start":16230.553,"end":16251.127,"text":"這個86萬4千元那如果依照比例呢你等於是比113年是70萬而已如果依照比例那就是增幅123%那這個比重我們可以看出說您看到這個問題的重要性所以增加這個預算但預算片日出來我們還是要看到的成效"},{"start":16252.108,"end":16259.359,"text":"但是我們看到這個成交也就是說工程會的資料去顯示我們5000萬以上的工程採購從108年開始你每一年決標千餘件一千多件"},{"start":16267.671,"end":16277.616,"text":"那你曾經留廢標的比例以及未在兩次內決標的比例呢108年度是69.27以及19.76但是到了111年它上升了它上升了什麼呢?它從69.27到78.04從19.76到了多少?到了26.32"},{"start":16294.304,"end":16320.422,"text":"所以主委像這樣的一個情況我們看到數字告訴你我也看到了113年8月底就今年度的到8月底你部分這個工程採購的流費標以及還沒有決標的那有在上升那你認為這個部分要怎麼樣去應對讓我們怎麼去調整讓我們的公共工程能夠更加的順利推動請說明"},{"start":16323.81,"end":16339.364,"text":"分成兩部分第一部分就是健全工程採購法規的制度我們近來開始著手在這個採購法的修正比方說過去投標一定要三家以上那未滿三家往往就一直流標"},{"start":16340.205,"end":16358.493,"text":"本席了解,現在就一家,第一次三家,第二次就一家。所以本席才告訴你,那既然是第二次就一家,但是你味覺飄的,它還是在上升啊。表示你改變了這個制度,你並沒有去把這個工程順暢去提升啊。"},{"start":16359.694,"end":16385.045,"text":"對,所以我們這個有關於法規的修正需要一點預算大概86萬新增那採購法要廣徵各界意見要辦說明會等等這個是採購法的修正其中有涉及到流標或絕標的一些規範來降低這個流標的次數然後減減採購次數所以這一點本席也是希望你書面資料給本席你的精準方案"},{"start":16385.905,"end":16407.783,"text":"因為我們實際上你改變了制度以前要三次三家通通三家第四次才可以這一家來協議但是現在我們為了要讓它順暢我們第二次就是只要有一家就得但是我們的數字還是不好看的啊所以表示你這個制度還是沒有辦法真正去"},{"start":16408.704,"end":16422.921,"text":"解決目前的困境我們目前的公共建設公共工程他能夠發包執行之前要往前推好幾年那往前推好幾年有可行性年就有綜合規劃非常了解所以針對本期的提問也就是說"},{"start":16426.105,"end":16448.226,"text":"目前我們的制度雖然有改改了一段時間執行一段時間但是本席告訴你數字還不是那麼順暢你去研擬方案你也點頭也知道這個困難當然不可能單一元素一定有很多的因子存在所以你們去通盤了解怎麼樣可以讓我們的政策"},{"start":16449.187,"end":16451.51,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16468.348,"end":16470.63,"text":"擴大導入零信任機制。擴大導入零信任機制。擴大導入零信任機制。"},{"start":16490.425,"end":16504.196,"text":"那所以本席要請教的是因為你目前是電子採購導入零信任的這個驗證機制他目前還是有這個對象限制 對不對"},{"start":16508.938,"end":16534.208,"text":"也就是本席要強調的你現在運用這個你適用的對象是有限的所以你還必須是去用傳統模式共同混合來運作那這個會不會影響到他的治安的安全混合在一起會不會影響到治安的安全所以本席要問的也就是說當發揮網路的這個治安防護的成效喔那你們"},{"start":16535.348,"end":16545.816,"text":"會不會在這樣的情況之下會有一點矛盾點我們一定要治安但是你又用傳統式的混合機制去做那這個成效到底會怎麼樣請出說明"},{"start":16546.946,"end":16565.904,"text":"是跟委員說明齁那其實我們知我們都是做這個零信任導入其實就是為了治安那治安的部分呢其實我們是一層一層疊加上去的那那個訴發部他們在導入這個零信任的時候他們今年是有初步的輔導我們各部位來導入那其實他導入"},{"start":16567.125,"end":16569.487,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":16597.208,"end":16608.516,"text":"有現在有盲點所以這個議題是我們一定要努力推動但是他的盲點在你的單位你掌控的全國的公共工程這個你必須要專案用心去做"},{"start":16609.406,"end":16629.754,"text":"是所以我們後續必須預算持續推動下去對不對你們要有你自己的KPI你自己的步驟好不好你把你的KPI你的步驟告訴這個書面資料給本席我們一起來看著你的KPI我們一起來努力這個零信任的這個機制那最後一個議題我要請教我要請教"},{"start":16630.834,"end":16656.067,"text":"公共工程委員會裡頭的業務以及公共規範、認證、整合、維護、推廣、研發你新編的資料庫是350萬那你要建置開發公共工程經費的網頁及碳排的估算是1000萬現在所有的人都希望他在能夠公共工程提供的工料的預算"},{"start":16657.709,"end":16675.104,"text":"那決標的價格給機關單位來參考因為你這個基礎數是非常的重要這個平台所以本事要請教現在所有的同業業者你很煩惱啊我到底沒碳排我是要怎麼計算未知數、環境部你的碳藍圖還沒出來"},{"start":16676.906,"end":16699.416,"text":"碳費、碳費率也初步講一個答案就是說5年後要到1816倍那我整個整個要來飆的人他會害怕啊又碰到通盆啊又碰到人工掃啊這一些都是因子所以主委像這樣的一個情況之下第一個你的這個碳排氣數"},{"start":16701.477,"end":16719.997,"text":"是不是在什麼時候可以正確出來你讓他得標準有所依據啊因為你政府如果關鍵沒有出來農耗沒有出來我根本就不知道要怎麼標嘛當然你的位決一定更多嘛費標我會越多啊請說明什麼時候會出來他們的技術什麼時候會出來我們在建制中"},{"start":16722,"end":16734.411,"text":"關於碳費,碳費它環境部在針對一些大戶,比如說煉鋼、石化、水泥一般公共工程還不至於有繳交碳費的問題不過這個建築我請企劃處處長來跟我們...未來會有,因為時間的關係主席站上來,主委我跟您討論一個原則"},{"start":16738.891,"end":16765.473,"text":"你的資料庫因為你也編列預算1000萬然後350萬我非常的希望能夠建置完成但是也就是說我們2050年近鄰碳排的這個目標那你政府應該要讓讓讓民眾有所依據啊所以本就請問你一個也就是你們現在沒有明定沒有明定你的編碼正確的這個正確率"},{"start":16768.295,"end":16788.139,"text":"進階的目標你現在沒出來啊那你現在編列這支預算是不是告訴我明年114年你可以出來你可以出來好那我們跟委員報告齁因為整個碳排的這個項目很多啦那我們根據明年的預算會把這個碳排放的估算系統初步建置完成"},{"start":16788.339,"end":16812.252,"text":"初步建制完成也就是你必須要明定編碼的正確率的進階目標那你讓要標的人才有所依據嘛對不對你也把你這1000萬以及你資料庫的這個委庫的這個服務費的你的350萬你這一些一定有你的指標你的KPI你預計要怎麼做"},{"start":16813.452,"end":16832.069,"text":"你順便資料給本席好不好那原則上也就是在明年一個答案就是說明年你的碳排的這個係數你的這個編碼正確率的進階目標明年初步應該會出來是不是好加油好謝謝楊瓊英委員好謝謝那接下來邀請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":16852.699,"end":16853.079,"text":"黃文哲議員"},{"start":16865.826,"end":16867.067,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":16885.683,"end":16886.403,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16912.735,"end":16929.033,"text":"急患期刊裡邊特別提到信息相關的訊息外傳跟網路遊戲成癮跟網路霸凌被害都跟自殺風險有高度相關而且兒少自殺已經是兒少死亡原因的第二高位那我們就必須要重視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":16930.334,"end":16944.534,"text":"九月二十七總諮詢那時候我就有提到國外的經驗那時候我跟院長提到說國外已經開始在管理平台了美國在今年七月就通過了防止成癮性的內容剝削兒童法那大概也"},{"start":16945.715,"end":16960.816,"text":"稍微看一下就是他們規範具有成癮性的演算法避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠甚至家長在保護隱私下可限制使用網路的長度和明定罰則那也可以看到不只是美國"},{"start":16962.859,"end":16972.881,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":16992.734,"end":17007.771,"text":"還需要有更多的管理機制所以想問NCC在兒少網路使用的層面上這麼多的暴力、血腥、霸凌都是有害孩子的身心健康的內容除了平台自律以外你到底要怎麼管理"},{"start":17009.082,"end":17024.65,"text":"跟委員報告,我想所有的內容管理其實核心還在於三立共管,不管是說在哪個平台。在我們的傳統的媒體上面,當然我們現在已經現行,已經有廣電三法在做處理了。"},{"start":17025.79,"end":17045.058,"text":"但是這個三立共管的概念其實不會改變那我現在目前跟我們的同仁在討論當中怎麼樣把三立共管的這個精神落實到我們網際網路平台上面去因為這裡面的問題其實還不只是耳哨還有各式各樣的這些網路上面這些違法或是不當內容對國人的傷害其實我們也都在觀察"},{"start":17046.238,"end":17046.498,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":17064.9,"end":17068.682,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":17080.009,"end":17094.419,"text":"包括臉書跟IG跟抖音這個立法目的大概都是怕孩子受到網路的危害然後協助父母去做對應當然你剛剛講IWIN這也是我覺得一直以來我覺得IWIN總共有五個爸媽"},{"start":17096.28,"end":17096.74,"text":"網路傳播政策"},{"start":17121.259,"end":17123.04,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":17139.705,"end":17140.406,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17159.749,"end":17162.771,"text":"安慰的部分根據46條而是要把46條的規定所編列預算有5個部會共同出錢來成立一個委託電腦工會來執行"},{"start":17174.72,"end":17192.077,"text":"這部分的話因為這部分其實都還在自律的範圍那自律這件事情其實在特別是說在跨國的這個平台上面其實自律啊並不是啊並不是完全就是說我不管它自律的話其實還是要透過一個大家社會上既有的共識由平台你必須要執行共識"},{"start":17193.058,"end":17193.679,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":17210.939,"end":17239.02,"text":"要有一個主管機關目前看到只有你們你們把電視台管得很好啊那現在網路都沒有人管所以平台應該要納管現在網路現在網路是請你們這邊去做考量好是是是這個這個網路部分的話是現在目前是分散在各個部會了他是有各自依照自己的選擇在管那至於說維林剛才提到確實是我們有加入一些國際組織啊他們有要求說我們要有個專法啦那就這一部分的話那個對於對於對於網路網路平台這個責任啊目前我們下一步我們還在演繹當中"},{"start":17239.881,"end":17240.141,"text":"羅致強委員發言"},{"start":17273.257,"end":17278.202,"text":"主席有請通傳會主秘請NCC黃主秘委員好主秘我想請教您2016年到2020年NCC編列的訴訟費預算平均數大概是多少"},{"start":17296.274,"end":17311.878,"text":"我告訴你好了一百零五萬如果說數據有落差你在事後告訴我那我想請教你2021年到2025年平均預算編列大概多少我們現在在編了一千萬我們114年編列"},{"start":17322.008,"end":17347.905,"text":"我跟你講那數據有落差再告訴我平均編列是790萬這5年平均我想請問為什麼短短幾年訴訟費平均可以暴漲7倍是發生什麼事情?是剛剛委員報告因為上次我最主要是一個是我們整個制度的改變本來有訴願先行現在已經沒有訴願先行我告訴你總共我幫你算了一下"},{"start":17349.913,"end":17374.724,"text":"這五年你暴漲七倍花掉人民納稅錢四千萬祖密請問你薪水多少?你現在幾值等?我現在十二值等十二值等的薪水大概是多少?你年薪?年薪阿有沒有兩百?沒有?一百五有沒有?有有嘛一百五阿我告訴你如果以年薪一百五十萬來算的話可以請二十六個一年可以請二十六個主任秘書啦我就要問阿"},{"start":17378.311,"end":17386.879,"text":"以前的NCC不用花這麼多的訴訟費你浪費工資花了4000萬請問這4000萬誰出啊?你出嗎?祖密你出嗎?我先問你誰出?這是我們機關出機關出啊?錯!這是誰出?納稅人出的機關錢誰來的?納稅人這4000萬陳耀祥出的嗎?"},{"start":17403.766,"end":17413.959,"text":"不是機關出的納稅人出的那我告訴你你答不出來為什麼輸送費暴漲7倍我告訴你就很簡單就是因為中天就這麼簡單"},{"start":17415.632,"end":17441.834,"text":"中天NCC亂罰中天亂搞的結果結果呢中天不斷的勝訴我當然你們也講你們有勝訴的部分啦我知道啦你們標準答案啦可是我告訴你行政處分行政法院啊通常行政機關勝訴率是非常高的那以到目前為止NCC對於中天總裁罰金額大概是多少25件多少金額連這個都搞不清楚"},{"start":17445.646,"end":17466.21,"text":"一一五八一一五八但是中間提醒行政訴訟到目前為止判決確定撤銷罰款多少目前為止確定撤銷的兩不是兩百兩兩百二十萬兩百二十萬對判決撤銷還沒確定了多少兩百六十萬啦我告訴你啦"},{"start":17467.421,"end":17490.88,"text":"以及你的罰的裡面就有4成被撤銷或者是判撤銷還沒確定我告訴你比起任何行政機關我中研中NCE有一個字叫廢啦廢透了啦你去舉任何一個行政機關今天在行政法院的訴訟有像你今天敗訴率這麼高的人講一個機關給我聽你是不是第一名"},{"start":17493.112,"end":17519.932,"text":"有沒有講一個機關給我聽不清楚阿我告訴你你要心知肚明阿今天你的判罰金有4成被法院否定的話我告訴你全世界不要講中華民國的行政機關全世界找不到這麼廢的機關阿現在中華民國阿我跟各位說對NCC今天本來應該是要捍衛新聞自由的單位"},{"start":17520.953,"end":17545.558,"text":"今天為了去迎合特定政黨、前置媒體竟然可以衝出來做所謂打壓新聞自由的打手最後呢被法院打臉一而再、再而三的敗訴我告訴你祖密我不怪你啦你只是行政事務官啦那些可惡的人拍在屁股就走了啦"},{"start":17546.909,"end":17574.924,"text":"我就直接說陳耀祥是新聞自由的徒夫徒夫今天台灣的新聞自由最大的污點就是陳耀祥做出來的所以今天我不知道NCC你到底還有什麼臉再繼續編輸送費用啦你是要告訴我你輸送費用還是要一直打官司一直輸然後去大費人民公帑我再來最後還是問你啊這錢誰出的再告訴我一次最後還是那些人出的答對了"},{"start":17576.27,"end":17586.914,"text":"難怪你們不要不警的啦無所謂啦我告訴你你不要跟我講你個人觀感你個人觀感在跟人民的落差多大是一回事今天從績效來講你多增7倍4000萬4000萬是小數目嗎?不是小數字對啊可以抵你26年的薪水"},{"start":17601.772,"end":17616.022,"text":"可以抵你26年的薪水所有的這個程序其實跟委員報告了我告訴你你不用報告了你今天要再幫陳耀祥擦屁股我知道你都為難了可是今天將來NCC的訴訟費好好檢討謝謝好謝謝羅志強委員"},{"start":17623.772,"end":17637.975,"text":"接下來邀請張祺凱委員發言張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員不在現場接下來邀請黃國昌委員發言黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在現場接下來邀請葉元智委員發言麻煩請那個NCC主秘請黃主秘"},{"start":17659.674,"end":17663.99,"text":"主秘請問一下剛剛羅志強委員講這件事情你身為NCE主秘有不好意思嗎?會不會?"},{"start":17667.329,"end":17693.417,"text":"會不會?浪費公帑這件事情會不會很不好意思?我們是依照規定依照規定?依照什麼規定?祖密之前你們的主委陳耀祥那時候我們問他問題的時候還在硬凹他說沒有啊我們NCC都勝訴啦我們勝訴是14次啦中天當時是只有兩次現在是三次你知道他那14次勝訴是怎麼算的嗎?你知道怎麼算的嗎?"},{"start":17694.156,"end":17717.829,"text":"我們的勝訴確實是你們根本人家沒跟你打官司你勝訴什麼啦沒有打官司你們是把你們裁罰出去人家沒有去跟你訴願的部分全部算作你勝訴有人這樣定義的嗎那現在警察機關每天都在勝訴因為他常開罰單出去只要民眾沒有去勝訴警察機關就是勝訴那警察機關大概是全台灣勝訴率最高的一個機關"},{"start":17719.27,"end":17747.765,"text":"可以這樣子定義喔我想當時是也許是比較簡短的敘述了或確實是只有兩件啊那是因為還在訴訟中嘛但是人家一審二審都贏嘛你要凹什麼啊然後現在第三屆人家也勝訴了嘛你們因為什麼理由開罰人家你們因為有一個名嘴叫謝寒冰他評論陳吉仲主委是有史以來最不適任的主委你們講說沒有查證啊所以就開罰啦"},{"start":17749.749,"end":17761.421,"text":"請問一下主秘一般我們講話有的時候是描述事實有的時候是個人觀點請問一下謝寒冰他講的是描述事實還是個人觀點是個人觀點還是事實是觀點還是事實他評論陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的主委是他的觀點還是事實"},{"start":17770.49,"end":17786.641,"text":"主秘你在NCC這麼久你這業務都不熟悉喔他是事實還是觀點因為這些所有的內容都經過內容諮詢委員會我就問你嘛我現在問你那問題那麼難回答嗎他是評論還是事實嘛這個是他的評論這個是他個人的評論主秘這個是他個人的評論"},{"start":17790.544,"end":17800.209,"text":"他評論他認為陳吉仲有史以來最不適應結果你們NCC講說他沒查證所以罰中天請問一下這個東西怎麼查證怎麼查證這個事情不是NCC說的是有民眾檢舉之後我們內容資訊委員會NCC很多時候民眾檢舉你們也是不處理啦要我們來列舉嗎我們一定會處理對所以你們處理就是你們去裁罰就是你們認為是這樣嘛你們覺得他沒有查證所以你們就開罰了嘛"},{"start":17819.838,"end":17840.703,"text":"但是一個評論要怎麼去查證啊還要硬拗114年編801萬的訴訟費用對不對比今年還要高100多萬對不對所以你們繼續就要繼續針對這些荒腔手法的裁罰的理由要繼續上訴繼續要浪費人民的納稅錢了是不是"},{"start":17843.182,"end":17868.168,"text":"維持一個政府的行政處分的這個正確性維持正確性那就不正確啊人家已經三件判決確定了你們都是敗訴啊是是是所以你就亂罰嘛你亂罰然後為了要拗到最後反正打官司很久嘛現在是三件嘛第四件可能也要很久以後第五件可能很久以後到時候可能你也沒有在做組密了這事情就跟你無關了"},{"start":17868.988,"end":17873.833,"text":"但是你們一點道德勇氣都沒有現在看了三件大家都覺得說這個非常荒腔走板嘛好啦請問一下那個時候你們的前主委前代理主委"},{"start":17883.325,"end":17904.639,"text":"瘟波中被記者問到如果NCC委員會沒辦法召開的話iPhone16沒辦法上市那iPhone16現在上市了沒當時是沒有辦法當時確實是沒有辦法進口做刑事認證現在沒辦法那現在你們NCC現在也沒有也沒辦法開整會啊現在三個啊所以以後有新的iPhone的手機也沒辦法上市你是這個意思嗎"},{"start":17905.852,"end":17930.754,"text":"未來的話有可能有可能怎麼樣有可能是這樣子未可能啊因為手機要進來有幾個程序啦一個是要進口sample進來做形式認證形式認證完了之後呢後續才可以根據這個形式認證他們哪可以啊就可以來進行所以有可能新的手機沒有辦法上市只要NCC委員沒辦法召開你是這個意思嗎對確定喔你講的喔你講的喔"},{"start":17932.955,"end":17948.641,"text":"所以NCC組密在這邊再次宣示了如果NCC委員沒有辦法組成委員會的話iPhone 17沒辦法上市你講的齁是你講的齁除了iPhone 17沒辦法上市之外還有什麼東西會受到影響"},{"start":17952.219,"end":17965.695,"text":"你剛剛講的啊我重複你的話啊你剛剛說如果NCE委員沒辦法組成的話iPhone 17沒辦法上市你剛剛講的啊我現在問你嘛如果現在NCE委員沒辦法組成iPhone 17可不可以上市可不可以"},{"start":17967.262,"end":17968.383,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17987.859,"end":18013.773,"text":"保留給委員會的事項了啦但是未來如果假設委員會如果假設真的真的沒有辦法再開的話那這部分的話我們後續的程序是不是我們委員會會在委員諮詢、質疑會議會再繼續討論這個我不清楚所以你們就是有辦法嘛你們那時候溫柏中就是在騙人嘛不是當時啊就是有辦法不然你講啊如果NCC現在沒辦法開會的話新的手機沒辦法上市你宣誓啊你講啊你再繼續恐嚇大家啊"},{"start":18014.953,"end":18038.701,"text":"你就是有辦法嘛那你既然有辦法去處理就行政程序去做調整為什麼當時要這樣子嚇大家所有公務員都要依法行政啦依法行政也可以彈性呢公務人員要做事啦可以找到100個理由啦不想做事可以找到150個藉口啦就看你怎麼做啦剛剛你也講了嘛沒有什麼iPhone16上不上市問題只要你程序做調整就好了嘛"},{"start":18040.551,"end":18063.485,"text":"不要在這邊欺騙大眾啦!謝謝!因為法律已經有修正啦!所以可以修正嘛!現在法律沒辦法修正啊!不是啊!你剛剛是調整內規!你是不是調整內規?那個是因為它已經法律有修正了!但是它仍然是委員會保留事項!好!沒關係!那你就重複嘛!就是說如果NC委員沒辦法順利組成的話新的手機沒辦法上市嘛!就是你的意思嘛!"},{"start":18065.138,"end":18069.84,"text":"接下來邀請王宏威委員發言王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員不在現場接下來邀請陳雪生委員發言陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員不在現場接下來邀請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":18096.891,"end":18099.514,"text":"謝謝主席有請通傳會黃竹蜜好請黃竹蜜"},{"start":18108.308,"end":18129.05,"text":"委員好主任好我這幾年來到立法院齁其實因為我服務的地方大概都是原偏鄉所以呢通訊的需求很高那特別在這邊也要謝謝因為完成的案子蠻多那我也聽到地方很多的聲音我也希望藉這個機會好轉達給各位"},{"start":18131.252,"end":18147.135,"text":"讓各位覺得說做這些事是有意義的舉個例子來講像是我們舊法灣那個地方你們找到一塊私有土地在那個地方架設基地台結果呢幫助了舊好茶甚至北大午"},{"start":18147.876,"end":18167.695,"text":"所以我想跟您說還沒有啟用的時候2021年齁當時一開通的第一天竟然救到了一位很重要的盧凱族的精神領袖一個作家丘金士丘霸他當時心臟病發所以呢竟然沒想到電話能通趕快"},{"start":18169.477,"end":18172.439,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":18197.638,"end":18217.75,"text":"在我們屏東南部像獅子鄉牡丹鄉滿洲鄉您也知道那個地方的通訊九彎十八拐通訊非常的差那這幾年我也看到你們陸陸續續幫忙了13處完成這個通訊基地台的改善那也有人跟我轉達說以前他們去種芒果"},{"start":18218.85,"end":18220.53,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":18246.855,"end":18267.349,"text":"在這次的凱米颱風有人在救好長也是因為通訊沒了所以家人呢迫不得已等了五天只好叫直升區去救那其實是很安全的所以我也希望說未來加強這一些優化基地站的設施提升他在災害時通訊的穩定性這是我的要求好不好好謝謝"},{"start":18277.255,"end":18278.616,"text":"主委好 有一件事很多人也請我要轉達您就是有一次我們一同到那個桃園區然後去看災哇 您很了不起耶"},{"start":18297.95,"end":18319.829,"text":"那個斷崖你站在第一線一馬當先當然我不是說這是好的但是讓很多人感動你站的比我們還要前面你就站在那個斷崖上那第二個要請我轉達您其實區公所自己提報的工程沒有那麼多錢但是您提到說"},{"start":18321.072,"end":18321.632,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18342.182,"end":18358.136,"text":"那在這一次我們看到風災不斷地震也不斷所以呢在我們的圓偏鄉有非常多的一個損失我都看到工程會其實你們都盡力很快速的核定像這個台東的東六四線也合了2.8億那或者是像這個我要特別講這一次秀林鄉的文蘭村"},{"start":18367.244,"end":18377.383,"text":"這個下邊坡倒也不是那一次地震一次造成的多少年來的颱風一次一次讓私有的土地大概呢他們都短少了三米"},{"start":18378.524,"end":18379.125,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":18397.208,"end":18398.469,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案例"},{"start":18427.108,"end":18440.488,"text":"我都發現大家對戶案的需求很多可是有點辛苦因為每一次河川局啊還是水保啊還是縣政府啊每一次全責大家都推來推去很難找"},{"start":18442.69,"end":18443.33,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18466.579,"end":18478.565,"text":"通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳"},{"start":18482.927,"end":18510.468,"text":"就是耐震防雨抗洪希望可以用高標準的技術材料確保他的安全跟永續然後禍案的界面不清我也希望工程會幫我們想個辦法以及我們原住民都說我們不要殺死回饋金啦我們要殺死而已啦我們的路面都跟河床一樣高我們多少的土地被流失所以我想這個部分都不是我們能夠解決我希望說工程會可以來幫個忙可以嗎主委"},{"start":18513.481,"end":18527.829,"text":"委員那我們會儘速回覆那個委員那包括剛才桃園區那些案為例那事實上權責也是不清楚啦後來我們由高雄市政府的水利局他們願意承擔下來所以規劃"},{"start":18529.85,"end":18557.267,"text":"那你熟悉嘛所以會做出比較好的設計那我想會協調那個全屬單位對我希望工程會可以幫忙處理這個介面的部分的問題我剛剛為什麼要特別感謝您就是如果不是工程會您這樣子願意來介入其實很多的事可能很難推動沒有這麼好的效果所以特別要謝謝好謝謝主委謝謝主席那也希望兩週內可以給我們一個書面回覆或者來辦公室讓我們知道你們的想法好謝謝"},{"start":18559.534,"end":18585.971,"text":"好,謝謝吳麗華委員接下來邀請侯孟楷委員發言侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員不在現場接下來邀請林楚英委員發言林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在現場接下來邀請鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在現場接下來邀請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現場"},{"start":18589.489,"end":18607.849,"text":"登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請相關單位盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":18610.401,"end":18636.984,"text":"針對今日的會議做以下決議一、一一四年度公共工程委員會國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算通訊傳播監督管理基金有限廣播電視事業發展基金非營業預算報告及詢打完畢令則其進行處理委員預算提案於12月16日星期一中午12點截止收件"},{"start":18637.785,"end":18650.714,"text":"二、討論事項五有關國家通訊傳播委員會113年度中央政府總預算兩項解凍案均另則其處理本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}