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所以說基本上這一個"},{"start":37.845,"end":55.74,"text":"目前的這個預算的殖民都有在處理那現實上來說我們看到這個保護農民的部分大概基本上損失大概是只有25%整體來說是這樣子所以我們現在看到的是說以在目前為止天然災害"},{"start":56.781,"end":84.575,"text":"還有包括這個農業保險應該是透過雙軌的方式不同層別那另外一個是屬於個人的經濟的韌性有三層的作用來面對這個天災那現在有一個出現的問題天然災害的這個部分我們做強化但個人的部分我們也需要強化但是保險的部分我們目前看到是最弱化的部分舉文旦的例子為例你最高理賠金額只有40%"},{"start":85.856,"end":105.062,"text":"而最大的級數多少 14級而已可是這次 主委 這是高達16級欸你極端企劃沒有納入欸你當你這個保險保單的設計當中應該予以提高 給付應該提高你給付不夠高 相對覆蓋率就不會高部長 這有檢討的空間啊"},{"start":108.863,"end":132.78,"text":"我跟委員報告這次大概理賠是用14級封40%如果它17級封的話就是100%那我也請我們的農進署這邊那個保單一定要滾動檢討如果沒有達到農民需要理賠而沒有理賠到我覺得它就不是一個好的保單我現階段就是許許多多農民跟我講說我都問他說田園災還沒搞"},{"start":135.561,"end":145.987,"text":"農業保險可以撥來倒但是沒辦法撥來倒為什麼因為誘因不足嘛所以趁這個機會來說就任性的部分的話我要請部長這個整個農業保險的部分要回去徹底的減少"},{"start":151.19,"end":171.483,"text":"這個我已經跟你講過好幾次還有包括個人經濟任性的部分還有包括所謂的這個農民退休儲金我上次也講啊我也不曉得你報的怎麼樣啊都沒有進度啊我跟委員報告農民退休儲金這個部分大概我們已經跟行政院已經報告 溝通好了嗎已經相關的溝通已經大概完成了什麼時候要宣布"},{"start":172.043,"end":198.961,"text":"那這個部分可能會在因為他是需要修法的嘛需要修法我們一定是在下個會議一定會送進來好 接下來我就在講啊在這剛剛在談就是說有關於你的農 漁 牧你這個補助的標準應該要雷同啊認定的基準也應該雷同啊譬如說我們給你舉一個例子我們最近在奔波在低層的時候就看到一個問題你婚姻額外的步驟跟額外的步驟"},{"start":201.513,"end":207.339,"text":"基本上金額就差非常多 一個公園11萬 一個天2萬5但是額外補助額外申請分額要5倍 額外的補助是5分之1我舉個例子 昨天就有一個里長跟我complain 他3.75公頃補助起來換起來不到5千塊"},{"start":226.761,"end":236.129,"text":"為什麼 因為你把間接的成本在你的航照圖生產的面積以外它的底牌啊 主要在那邊長小 你都不算面積這樣認定過於重演啦所以以致於民怨不斷啦"},{"start":243.53,"end":259.186,"text":"部長 這個有檢討的空間啊第一個你要知道這個每一個養殖項目的成本的部分你要先徹底的了解第二個部分你要去清楚的知道這一個實質的這個整個養殖的方式是如何"},{"start":259.887,"end":273.478,"text":"部長你可以檢討一下啦這第一我第二個來講包括你傳統的畜牧業部分堆肥室的部分你補足一片差不多250萬元是最上層鋼琴成本差不多一千這差不多現金大差不多八千一萬"},{"start":276.44,"end":300.263,"text":"您講的都差不多10分之一而已啦現實上差太多啦如果相對於農漁木我剛剛講在比較上這有需要調整的空間啦 部長這麻煩回去稍微處理一下好不好好 第一個我跟委員報告就是救助金本身的一個金額的調整會隨著物價而調整我們大概上次已經說的我們大概每半年到一年都會調整一次"},{"start":300.583,"end":322.292,"text":"那問題是就算是少啦然後第二個就是說因為這一次部分特別像敘事的部分因為你要去調整救助金我們用補助的方式專門補助的方式來協助他能夠度過這次人狼關我跟你講這兩個項目你就回去幫我檢討一下我請董事上來一下你會後給我回覆啦這兩個強烈的在表達不滿董事"},{"start":330.214,"end":330.355,"text":"來 謝謝部長請回"},{"start":334.664,"end":363.276,"text":"總之16年前的八八風災的這個土石流需要一套SOP的方式也就是議城古島區今年度消防署公布的這個資料剛好是在丹麥斯颱風來了一周框了13個縣市這個古島區台南市是零台南市是零喔結果整個台南市這次形成了多少古島沿海一帶都是古島好幾個部落都是古島我調了一下113年的數字台南還有一處在南化那為什麼我們的議城古島區台南都變成零"},{"start":364.016,"end":387.137,"text":"因為你從土石流的概念來思考這個孤島而已嘛那天災難道只有土石流而已嗎所以跟委員報告我們消防署雖然說目前已經有那個之前的決議是說這些地方被刪除但是我們會重新再去討論那一塊而且部長也指示過我們針對整個孤島地區會重新做一個新的討論這些孤島地區在這是以我選區七股的西寮頂山沿城"},{"start":388.138,"end":416.907,"text":"完全都是每一個都不同的孤島就是脆弱的沿海地帶當中應該納入救災的準備機制啊市長我未來會檢討未來會檢討這裡頭就非常的清楚包括北門都是這樣子嘛至少之所以會形成這個孤島除了風力之外還有一個你知道嗎它在第一個時間點颱風登陸的時候整個七股的沿海的這個浮標測到最高的這個浪高是5.7啊你們說海水倒灌居民說那是海嘯"},{"start":419.032,"end":433.152,"text":"所以進來之後為什麼會變成這樣子細節我不跟你講七谷的沙洲的整個修築的這個海堤啊能量都非常有限那之前這兩個缺口不用是"},{"start":434.493,"end":454.784,"text":"兩個沙洲不管是盲阿寮還是青山港都處於侵蝕的階段甚至變破體以至於海水會倒灌倒灌進來之後我曾經去會堪過我曾經也開過協調會會堪協調會之後呢每個部會中央所屬不同的部會包括你內政部也好包括經濟部也好互相"},{"start":456.045,"end":474.06,"text":"說不是他的責任另外地方也有地方的管轄範圍所以分屬各地我以為啊用一個方式可以解決就是台南市把它列入一級的海岸的防護啊以前一級海岸防護都是本島離島不算那發現你們在109年6月就已經把台南一級防護納進去了69公里海岸線了是"},{"start":477.193,"end":497.805,"text":"那結果呢 時間過了幾年 過了五年了有沒有做 沒有做我簡單的講 重點的說 兩個方式一個呢 離岸這一個堤防要不要蓋你要跟啦 這一個啦 經濟部水利署對 國家公運署跟水利署已經合作 我們會來處理什麼時候 什麼時候 我上次協調會兩邊還推來推去啦我們儘快來處理 什麼時候"},{"start":502.407,"end":522.633,"text":"下禮拜給本席一個答覆好可以嗎下禮拜給本席一個答覆另外一個中期的部分可以做的就是海雜門海雜門有550億的這個水利工程或經濟部的水利署在不在來署長來署長這個海雜門有沒有效龍山的海雜門開下去就有了這邊沿海地帶有幾個海雜門"},{"start":524.607,"end":538.384,"text":"報告委員這個是大寮排水大寮排水有沒有海雜滿它規劃設計有也核定的那目前是還沒有那因為當初市政府這個完成治理規劃以後"},{"start":540.467,"end":553.202,"text":"地方的居民對於海雜門的使用的部分還有些疑慮但是規劃完這是地方居民跟我要求的現在有疑慮嗎所以我們現在如果說市政府認為可以來做我們會來考慮納到我們下一階段"},{"start":557.367,"end":563.45,"text":"是 準備好 當場來宣布到底需要蓋幾個海雜門的應急工程開始來施作是 如果我們要依照市政府所核定的內容我們會來積極協助還有包括那個離岸堤防沒有問題 也是美根委員報告針對離岸堤防大概有需要那個沙長帶破損目前我們會全力幫忙在公共工程委員會附件勘栽馬上來處理會全力來負責 沒有問題"},{"start":586.582,"end":595.326,"text":"好不好 這個我們會跟市政府一起努力這些都要現場要有說明沒有問題 這才是真正的長期的solution的方案我們會跟內政部一起來努力好 謝謝兩位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1011,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時15分）謝謝主席，先請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，臺南這一次的天災農損第一名，高達45%，就過往的平均農損，每年大概要121億，但是我們現金的補助大概只有31億，我剛剛聽您講或許今年會超過平均值吧！"],["陳部長駿季：去年其實就已經超過75億了。"],["郭委員國文：對，基本上目前預算的支應你們都有在處理，以現實狀況來說，我們看到保護農民的部分基本上損失大概是25%，整體來說是這樣子。我們現在看到的是到目前為止，天然災害以及農業保險應該是透過雙軌的方式，兩者是不同層別，另外一個則是屬於個人經濟的韌性，總共有三層作用來面對天災。現在出現一個問題，天然災害的部分我們予以強化，個人的部分也需要強化，但是我們目前看到保險的部分是最弱化的部分。以文旦為例，你最高理賠金額只有40%，最大級數只有14級而已，可是這次高達16級，你們沒有把極端氣候納入耶！在這個保險的保單設計當中，給付理當提高，你給付不夠高，相對覆蓋率就不會高。部長，這個有檢討的空間。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這次理賠是用14級風40%，如果17級風的話就是100%，我也請農金署注意保單一定要滾動檢討，如果農民需要理賠而沒有理賠，那我覺得它就不是一個好的保單。"],["郭委員國文：現階段有許許多多農民跟我反映，我都跟他們說天然災害補不夠，農業保險可以補足，但是他們卻沒有，為什麼？因為誘因不足嘛！所以趁這個機會，就韌性的部分，請部長針對農業保險回去澈底檢討，這個問題我已經跟你講過好幾次了。另外，個人經濟韌性的部分還包括所謂的農民退休儲金，這我上次也講過，我也不曉得你辦得怎麼樣，都沒有進度啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對農民退休儲金的部分，我們跟行政院已經溝通過……"],["郭委員國文：溝通好了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：相關的溝通已經大概完成了。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候要宣布？"],["陳部長駿季：因為它是需要修法的，我們在下個會期一定會送進來。"],["郭委員國文：好，剛剛在談有關於農、漁、牧的補助標準應該要雷同，認定的基準也應該要雷同。舉一個例子，我們最近在基層奔波的時候就看到一個問題，你們對文蛤的補助和對牡蠣的補助金額相差非常多，一個是1公頃11萬元，另外一個是2萬5,000元，牡蠣的成本是文蛤的五倍，結果它的補助卻是文蛤的五分之一。昨天就有一個里長跟我complain，說他3.75公頃換算下來補助不到5,000元，為什麼？因為把間接的成本……在你們航照圖生產的面積以外，他的竹筏必須在那邊作業，但是你們都不列入認定範圍，因為你們的認定過於嚴苛，以至於民怨不斷，部長，這個有檢討的空間。第一，每一個養殖項目的成本你要先澈底了解；第二，你必須清楚知道整個養殖的方式是如何。部長，你可以回去檢討嗎？這是第一個問題。","接下來我再說第二個問題，包括傳統畜牧業的部分，堆肥舍每坪補助大約255元，鋼筋結構大概一坪1,000元，現階段建構成本都在8,000元至1萬元左右，你們補助的差不多只有十分之一而已，現實上差太多了，如果相對於農漁牧，我剛剛講了，在比較上有需要調整的空間，部長，麻煩回去稍微處理一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，救助金本身的金額會隨著物價而調整，我們上次已經說了，大概每半年或一年都會調整一次。"],["郭委員國文：對，問題就是很少啦。"],["陳部長駿季：對。第二個，這次特別像畜舍的部分，因為要去調整救助金，我們用專案補助的方式來協助他能夠渡過這次的難關。至於你剛才講的……"],["郭委員國文：對，你不要再講了，我跟你講，我覺得這兩個項目你就回去幫我檢討一下，我請董次上來一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我們後續會檢討。"],["郭委員國文：你會後跟我回復。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：這兩個都強烈地在表達不滿。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝部長，請回。","董次，16年前88風災的土石流需要一套SOP的方式，也就是易成孤島地區，今年度消防署公布資料剛好在丹娜絲颱風到來的前一週，匡列了13個縣市，而易成孤島地區的數量，臺南市是0，臺南市是0喔！結果這次整個臺南市形成了多少孤島？沿海一帶都是孤島，好幾個部落都是孤島。我調了一下113年的數字，臺南還有1處在南化區。為什麼臺南的易成孤島區數量會變成0？因為你們從土石流的概念來思考這個孤島而已，但天災難道只有土石流而已嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。跟委員報告，我們消防署雖然之前的決議是這些地方被刪除，但是我們會重新再去討論那一塊，而且部長也指示過，我們針對整個孤島地區會重新做新的討論。"],["郭委員國文：這些孤島地區災區，以我的選區七股的西寮、頂山、鹽埕來看，每一個完全都是不同的孤島，次長，脆弱的沿海地帶應該納入救災的整備機制。"],["董次長建宏：對，我們未來會檢討，把這個部分也納入。"],["郭委員國文：未來會檢討？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["郭委員國文：這裡頭非常地清楚，包括北門都是這樣子。之所以會形成這些孤島，除了風力之外，還有一個因素，你知道嗎？颱風在登陸的第一個時間點，整個七股沿海的浮標測到最高的浪高是5.7公尺，你們說是海水倒灌，但居民說那是海嘯。所以進來之後為什麼會變成這樣子？細節我不跟你講，七股沙洲整個修築的海堤能量都非常有限。"],["董次長建宏：這部分我們……"],["郭委員國文：之前這兩個缺口……兩個沙洲不論是網仔寮或青山港，都屬於侵蝕的階段，甚至變破堤，以至於海水會倒灌，倒灌進來之後……我曾經去會勘過，也開過協調會，會勘、協調會之後，中央所屬不同的部會包括內政部也好、包括經濟部也好，互相說不是自己的責任；另外，地方也有地方的管轄範圍，所以分屬各地。我以為用一個方式就可以解決，就是臺南市把它列入一級海岸的防護，現在一級海岸防護都是針對本島，離島不算，我們發現你們在109年6月就已經把臺南一級防護的部分納進69公里的海岸線了。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["郭委員國文：結果時間過了幾年？過了5年了，有沒有做？沒有做。我簡單地講、重點地說，有兩個方式，一個是離岸堤防要不要蓋？"],["董次長建宏：這部分國家公園署……"],["郭委員國文：你要跟經濟部水利署……"],["董次長建宏：對，國家公園署跟水利署已經合作，我們會來處理。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候？"],["董次長建宏：我們儘快來處理。"],["郭委員國文：我上次召開協調會的時候，兩邊還推來推去啦！"],["董次長建宏：我們儘快來處理。"],["郭委員國文：儘快來處理，什麼時候？下禮拜一給本席一個答復，可以吧？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["郭委員國文：下禮拜一給本席一個答復。另外一個，中期的部分可以做的就是海閘門，海閘門有550億的水利工程，經濟部水利署在不在？署長，這個海閘門有沒有效？龍山的海閘門蓋了就有效。這邊沿海地帶有幾個海閘門？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，這個是大寮排水……"],["郭委員國文：大寮排水有沒有海閘門？"],["林署長元鵬：規劃設計有，也核定了。"],["郭委員國文：對，現在就是沒有，你什麼時候要蓋嘛？"],["林署長元鵬：目前是還沒有，因為當初市政府完成治理規劃以後，地方的居民對於海閘門使用的部分還有些疑慮，但是規劃完成了。"],["郭委員國文：這是地方居民跟我要求的，現在有疑慮嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：對，所以現在如果市政府認為可以做，我們會考慮納到下一階段治水……"],["郭委員國文：下禮拜我要會勘，你們準備好……"],["林署長元鵬：我們會全力來幫忙，沒有問題。"],["郭委員國文：當場來宣布到底需要蓋幾個海閘門的應急工程，趕緊來施作。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會依照市政府所核定的內容積極協助。"],["郭委員國文：還有包括離岸堤防也一併回答本席。請董次……"],["林署長元鵬：沒有問題。順便跟委員報告，針對離岸堤防沙腸袋破損，目前我們會全力幫忙，在公共工程委員會復建勘災馬上來處理……"],["郭委員國文：準備好，下個禮拜二我們地方見，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：會全力來負責，沒有問題，我們會跟市政府一起來努力。"],["郭委員國文：這些在現場都要有所公布。"],["林署長元鵬：沒有問題，我們會全力協助。"],["郭委員國文：這才是真正長期solution的方案。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會跟內政部一起來努力，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請黃國昌委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-21"],"gazette_id":"1146802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及交通部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復\n情形」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146802_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}