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謝謝今天下午大家不共參加我們針對發展觀光條例在上次委員會通過的部分進行我們這個朝野黨團的協商那我們現在在進行協商之前先介紹一下今天在場出席的委員林佩翔委員黃建豪委員以及游浩委員"},{"start":1926.567,"end":1952.6,"text":"那也特別謝謝我們今天部長陳世凱部長也親自到現場放心啦這個不用到不用你待會要趕場我知道今天看這樣的協調的話速度應該還蠻快的好以及我們周永輝署長喔次長又來你不是等一下才輪班嗎先到了好以及我們政務次長陳彥博次長來再起立次"},{"start":1955.93,"end":1982.224,"text":"好 大家相關的我們部裡面署裡面的各位夥伴一起以及我們法務部廖章健參事 謝謝以及文化部沈長在因為沒有寫職務以及文化部的代表還有咧 還有國防部的代表張景泰是主任嗎"},{"start":1984.192,"end":1984.432,"text":"委員林國臣委員"},{"start":2011.837,"end":2036.985,"text":"我們今天進行黨團這個協商那今天協商的主要針對於上次有兩個條文進行協商第一個我們針對於第七十之二條那我們這個各位有補充意見嗎因為我們在上次通過的是按照陳雪生委員的版本通過那各位對於"},{"start":2039.017,"end":2055.397,"text":"內容這個部分有什麼要說明補充或者要透過協調來說明的說明一下你們是照陳雪生版本通過還是內容有什麼樣需要微調的部分"},{"start":2055.908,"end":2073.233,"text":"是跟朝野跟各位委員報告一下因為雪生委員後來也有提補充說明就是他原來的那個要訂定這個管理要點的部分他同意刪除但是站在交通部觀光署的立場我們希望發展觀光條例第七十之二條"},{"start":2074.173,"end":2083.997,"text":"仍然維持最多十年至一百一十四年的十二月年底其他部分按照原條文維持以上這兩點的補充報告麻煩昭委及各位委員支持"},{"start":2099.271,"end":2118.062,"text":"來所以剛剛署長是完全沒有新意啊就是還是之前立場的欸你不是說有些要調整啊沒有齁還沒弄好兩點嘛第一點就是第一個年限嘛齁就是延五年第二個的部分就是要你們一年一年之內包括什麼"},{"start":2119.687,"end":2147.304,"text":"不是就是不是延五年就是本來是114年的1月22號就是延到12月的31號就是同年的114年第二個就是不要另訂要點這是因為協商過那那個今天好像雪生委員也有特別提一個案就是是為此不調整不修正那個要點是就是這兩點補充報告"},{"start":2150.572,"end":2166.541,"text":"好那各位看到這個在桌上的這一本第43頁是討論第43頁那目前通過的版本第七十之二條它的內容是這樣與本條例中華民國104年1月22號修正施行前非以營利"},{"start":2177.353,"end":2200.675,"text":"為目的且供特定對象住宿場所而有營業事實者應予展延五年至一百一十九年一月二十一日這是第一段就是再延五年接下來就是自本修正條文公佈之日一年內由中央主管機關訂定本法"},{"start":2202.847,"end":2231.116,"text":"於一百零四年前原列之特定住宿對象這個管理辦法統一管理制你是對後段比較希望調整因為學中文也有來嘛對對是就是那個不用再另訂的就維持原條文就是由官方飯店跟一般旅館跟民宿他按照目前的管理辦法就可以了不用再另訂管理辦法好那就"},{"start":2232.726,"end":2257.337,"text":"這個觀光署的建議啦建議就是說它延五年喔那延五年我們是堅持我們的立場但是後面這個另訂啊回溯到一百零四年另訂一個特殊這個特定對象因為特定對象我們在前面定義的時候我們把它刪掉了所以特定對象因為沒定義是不是我們下次修法的時候再來處理這一部分好不好"},{"start":2258.274,"end":2270.363,"text":"那這樣的好不好?這邊有一個修正的一個版本我需要大家有嗎?有沒有?印出來?好,麻煩印給大家了但我先念一下啦與本條例中華民國104年1月22號修正施行前非以營利為目的且供特定對象住宿場所而有營利之事實者"},{"start":2288.052,"end":2298.421,"text":"因自本條例修正後修正施行之日起十年再展延五年至109年1月21日向地方主管機關申請旅館業登記"},{"start":2310.769,"end":2334.125,"text":"領取登記證及專用標章使得繼續營業那這個的部分後段就是原有條文的內容那但是日程的部分我們就再展延五年到119年1月21號那不用另訂這個部分啦如果有需要我們在下次修法的時候另案再來討論那我們就用這個新的"},{"start":2335.302,"end":2340.828,"text":"文修正草案 確定延誤年 後面另定辦法 未來以後再來詳細談我們要做成這樣一個協調 國通委員 政黨協調有沒有什麼意見這個是我們觀光組提出來的嗎"},{"start":2357.304,"end":2386.383,"text":"我們觀光署還是維持原來希望是維持原來10年那最多是考慮到一些那只有10年的部分就是到114年的年底我們的建議是這個版本那主席這個是雪生修的是吧對對對我們這邊提的修的把下面因為一年以內要立什麼辦法那個另外我以後另外處理我覺得部長也來啦那署長也來啊你們什麼都不要"},{"start":2388.125,"end":2409.879,"text":"你們到底什麼叫做發展觀光條例你們根本就是不是發展什麼觀光條例嘛所以一個就是你們要提出特別的管理辦法來輔導他讓他有就地合法我們講了老半天你們也不聽那我不曉得那你們要幹嘛你們到年底要幹嘛"},{"start":2411.192,"end":2434.027,"text":"那你們有辦法去輔導他嗎?事實上上面延了那些時間是有少部分的已經合法化了那你再給他延個五年我跟你講仁至義盡我給你五年你還是不能成立那我就公事公辦這個在做任何事情"},{"start":2435.273,"end":2464.369,"text":"人家情離華嘛你不要把華抬在前面嘛那如果是這個你們是同意那那個訂定一個辦法那以後再講無所謂但是你這個時間你們要去把握嘛因為我記得你們上次有一個報告已經輔導也有二十幾家嘛那你這五年當中我給你們這些人再給你們五年啊你們都做不到那你不能怪我政府啊"},{"start":2465.819,"end":2492.336,"text":"所以我是建議不定有時候這些東西當然當然就是要考慮到很多面的問題這是要促進觀光並非是要縱容而是歷史上我已經告訴你們了政府國產署只要72年以前所成立的東西他們也不強制啊"},{"start":2493.755,"end":2505.62,"text":"本院交通委員會報告併案審查委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員會報告併案審查委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案："},{"start":2520.407,"end":2542.5,"text":"其他的問題 土地的變更問題 租賃的問題 你們要去解決啊我辦法給你們 不能解決 我坦白講 你們應該要去輔導他像那個國土署 他沒有辦法解決的 你們要用怎麼行政的東西讓他去變通 變成合法化"},{"start":2543.496,"end":2572.508,"text":"那我說實在那你們過去為什麼會去縱容他所以我一直在強調這是歷史上的違規歷史上的違規政府當然也要負責任啊政府是沿系啊不管你是國民黨也好誰執政也好本來就是為什麼會縱容他更何況喔有些 有些喔有些這些寄存的東西他們都有建造喔"},{"start":2573.735,"end":2597.616,"text":"只是我們這個條例是他建立以後是我們的條例才開始來管理它所以這個部分我真的要建議部長還有署長要有一個通融行政通融的做法不能你們這樣一年一年怎麼處理他要變更他要變更或者國土署要幫忙都沒有辦法幫忙"},{"start":2598.797,"end":2622.755,"text":"所以我還是建議現在這個是經過你們協調如果能延五年這個我跟你講政府已經仁至義盡踩得很硬五年後你沒有辦法去做到我的管理標準那對不起你不能怪我們所以我是建議這個延五年我是認為我們政府也不要那麼強硬"},{"start":2624.121,"end":2624.361,"text":"委員許宇甄等20人擬具"},{"start":2647.412,"end":2673.386,"text":"那下一次再來定但是這五年時間給他他們再做不好那不能怪我們政府我是比較主張延五年其他可以先不要定定但是在這個部分政府還是要有一個通融啦不是西班班啦啊這個我跟你講這牽涉太廣好不好好請陳雪生委員把那個調整的內容說明一下昨天那個署長到我辦公室來嘛齁我們延伸這個問題"},{"start":2675.982,"end":2683.514,"text":"這裏面有變化,請問這張誰寫的?是你的意思還是交通部的意思?應該是我們觀光署的一個建議意見"},{"start":2690.25,"end":2713.926,"text":"他們有說如果說這個在延五年不變但是後面確認一下文字可以調成這樣但是剛剛有說啦他們的立場還是到年底我沒有同意他後面這一段啦我是同意的是昨天我有簽字那個啊我簽字不是這一張啦我簽字那個後面沒有這些字眼啦"},{"start":2715.294,"end":2734.375,"text":"後面沒有人字眼我看一下好不好因為組長你是跟我講你是跟我講只是變動字這是我之前的嗎 不是吧"},{"start":2736.277,"end":2762.539,"text":"不是啊,我修正的是只是講說104年、10年再展延五年,只是講再展延五年就沒有啦,下面就沒有啦。就之前法例後面是這樣寫的啦,就等於說沒有變動就接上來。那後面不寫行嗎?照國城英雄的意見,好不好來。"},{"start":2764.895,"end":2791.722,"text":"好 有話委員 有沒有意見那這樣好不好因為今天這個政黨協商因為目前看起來民進黨沒有出席所以因為政黨協商這個可能沒有辦法有具體的結論那我們是不是如果沒有其他意見我們就把原來我們通過的版本加上今天學生委員協商協調的那個條文的部分一併送院長來做進一步的院會的協商"},{"start":2794.54,"end":2795.381,"text":"文修...文修...好"},{"start":2823.854,"end":2848.368,"text":"那這樣的我們今天的一個協商因為有政黨沒有出席但是還是可以討論討論結果就是我們學生委員自己有提出來一個優化的一個版本我們併著原案原案送我們院會由院長召集協商所以本案建請院長召集協商各位有沒有同不同意"},{"start":2849.431,"end":2870.271,"text":"好,沒有其他意見喔?好,那我們正式作成建請院長召集協商,針對於七十九條的部分。好,以上。好,接下來還有五十三條,也要討論的是保留送院會處理啊。這個,觀光署要不要講一下,當時保留的大家點在哪裡?"},{"start":2871.384,"end":2898.533,"text":"對 也特別報告一下就是我們是有關於這些旅行社有一些條文是五十三條譬如說他在國外丟包那確實是按照五十三條的基本精神來講確實對我們國家的這些榮譽、聲譽確實是有損所以這件事情我們還是希望能夠維持原條文好 原本我們委員的發言我還記得就是擔心"},{"start":2900.014,"end":2913.442,"text":"就是給你這些這個你的用途太廣就是你想到什麼就用了就開罰了大家擔心這個啦好不好那這個的部分各位委員有沒有53條有沒有其他意見"},{"start":2916.284,"end":2916.604,"text":"黃建華委員"},{"start":2934.997,"end":2949.406,"text":"那這個部分你看一下我過去這些年案我跟你們調資料你這些年開罰的比例的案例有幾個一個就是民國95年好說今天就丟包旅客所以變成經媒體批鬥之後影響國家形象電入國家榮譽所以開罰他15萬"},{"start":2951.187,"end":2965.81,"text":"第二條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第二條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":2981.329,"end":3001.643,"text":"這跟電入國家容易損害國家利益我覺得沒有這個必然關係那剛剛提到的案例比如說地下會對這部分應該有其他的法律可以處理那因為疫情發生事情的時候當時也有這個特別條例可以處理所以這些東西我就覺得說你把它放在觀光業裡面好像變成這個架在業者上面的一個刀子那"},{"start":3002.503,"end":3021.33,"text":"所以我們那時候我看那個許宇甄委員的意思是說如果要認定的話應該是經由法院認定那上次說要經由法院認定的時候這個司法院又說沒有相關的法律所以要去定義這件事情非常困難那我說我就說那如果連司法院都覺得這件事情很困難很難定義的話那你在行政裁量上要怎麼去定義說誰叫做什麼樣行為就墊入"},{"start":3022.31,"end":3048.348,"text":"國家榮譽什麼叫電入什麼叫損害國家利益所以我覺得這件事情的定義我覺得也很難明確這是我剛剛提出的一個疑問謝謝是 因為我們都會按照實際的案例來做這個裁罰嘛所以這件事情因為刑之有年然後也沒有治案難刑之處然後其他相關的法令也有類似的這種條文的明定那對我們在執行公務上來講確實也比較"},{"start":3050.951,"end":3054.485,"text":"就拜託這個司法院是有意見嗎"},{"start":3056.127,"end":3073.219,"text":"委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條"},{"start":3084.426,"end":3108.671,"text":"正面表列一些主要的樣態、可能性你也比較好說明啦因為說不會其實大家也擔心我們希望把樣態更明確化在院長、院會協調的時候能夠比較好協商好不好那這個部分我們一樣一樣就交由我們院會由韓院長來召集協商好各位有沒有"},{"start":3113.68,"end":3122.049,"text":"同意嗎?同意,那我們以上兩條都交給院會由院長召集協商好,那我們今天的一個政黨協調會議協商會議就到這邊為止謝謝大家參加,謝謝"},{"start":3138.131,"end":3139.172,"text":"文修正草案審查委員"},{"start":3164.346,"end":3165.967,"text":"本院交通委員會報告併案審查"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:31:44.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:31:54.163000+08:00","text":"謝謝大家今天下午撥空參加我們針對發展觀光條例在上次委員會通過的部分進行朝野黨團協\n商。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:31:57.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:33:54.543000+08:00","text":"今天主要是針對上次的兩個條文進行協商，第一個是第七十條之二，各位有補充意見嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:33:54.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:34:08.004000+08:00","text":"我們上次是按照陳雪生委員的版本通過，各位對於它的內容有什麼要說明、補充或者是要透過\n協調來說明的？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:34:08.004000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:34:11.168000+08:00","text":"署長不是有嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:34:11.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:34:18.377000+08:00","text":"請署長說明一下，你們是要照陳雪生委員的版本通過，還是內容有什麼需要\n微調的部分？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:34:19.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:34:45.636000+08:00","text":"跟召委和各位委員報告一下，因為雪生委員後來又有提補充說明，就是原來要訂定管\n理要點的部分，他同意刪除，但是站在交通部觀光署的立場，我們希望發展觀光條例的第七十\n條之二仍然維持最多 10 年，到 114 年年底，我們的立場還是這樣子，其他部分就按照原條文來\n維持。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:34:45.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:34:46.977000+08:00","text":"以上這兩點補充報告，麻煩召委跟各位委員能夠支持。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:02.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:07.814000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛署長完全沒有新意，還是維持之前的立場，是不是這樣？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:09.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:10.355000+08:00","text":"你不是說有些要調整的嗎\n？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:10.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:10.976000+08:00","text":"沒有嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:11.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:11.876000+08:00","text":"還沒弄嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:13.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:14.218000+08:00","text":"兩點嘛，第一點就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:15.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:21.062000+08:00","text":"第一個是年限，就是延 5 年，第二個部分就是要你們 1年之內報告什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:22.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:38.797000+08:00","text":"不是延 5 年，就是本來是 114 年的 1 月 22 日延到 12 月 31 日，就是同年、114 年；\n第二個是不要另訂要點，這是因為協商過了。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:39.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:48.763000+08:00","text":"今天好像雪生委員也有特別提一個案，就是維持\n不調整、不修正那個要點。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:49.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:35:50.284000+08:00","text":"就是這兩點補充報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:35:53.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:36:53.569000+08:00","text":"好，各位看到桌上這一本審查報告的第 43 頁，目前通過的版本第七十條之二的內容是這樣\n：「於本條例中華民國一百零四年一月二十二日修正施行前，非以營利為目的且供特定對象住\n宿之場所而有營業之事實者，應予展延五年至一百十九年一月二十一日」，這是第一段，就是\n再延 5 年；接下來就是「自本修正條文公布之日起一年內由中央主管機關訂定本法於民國一百\n338\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n零四年前原列之特定對象住宿管理辦法統一管理之。","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:36:54.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:36:58.751000+08:00","text":"」你們是比較希望後段能夠調整，因為雪\n生委員也有來嘛！","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:36:59.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:37:12.375000+08:00","text":"對，就是不用再另定了，就是維持原條文，觀光飯店、一般旅館跟民宿按照目前的管\n理辦法就可以了，不用再另訂管理辦法。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:37:13.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:37:39.616000+08:00","text":"好，以上是觀光署的建議，不過延 5年的部分我們是堅持我們的立場，但是後面這個回溯到\n104 年，另訂一個特定對象住宿管理辦法，其中的「特定對象」我們在前面定義的部分把它刪掉\n了，因為「特定對象」沒定義，所以是不是我們下次修法的時候再來處理這個部分？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:37:40.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:37:40.317000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:37:41.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:37:41.935000+08:00","text":"這樣好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:37:42.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:37:48.700000+08:00","text":"這邊有一個修正的版本，大家有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:37:51.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:37:51.742000+08:00","text":"麻煩印給大家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:37:51.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:38:38.212000+08:00","text":"現在我先唸一下：於本條例中華民國一百零四年一月二十二日修正施行前，非以營利為目的\n且供特定對象住宿之場所而有營業之事實者，應自本條例修正施行之日起十年，再展延五年，\n至一百十九年一月二十一日，向地方主管機關申請旅館業登記、領取登記證及專用標識，始得\n繼續營業。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:38:38.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:38:48.839000+08:00","text":"剛剛唸的部分，後段就是原有條文的內容，但是日程的部分我們就再展延 5年，到 119 年 1 月\n21日。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:38:50.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:38:56.124000+08:00","text":"不用另訂這個部分，如果有需要，我們下次修法的時候再另案討論。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:38:56.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:02.306000+08:00","text":"我們就用這個新的，就是確定延 5 年這個版本，後面另訂辦法我覺得以後再來詳細談。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:02.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:03.387000+08:00","text":"因為\n這是政黨協調，請問國成委員有沒有意見？","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:03.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:03.828000+08:00","text":"這是觀光署提出來的嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:20.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:30.331000+08:00","text":"我們觀光署還是希望維持原來的 10 年，最多是考慮到一些……由 10 年的部分到 114\n年年底。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:31.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:33.393000+08:00","text":"我們的建議是這個版本。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:34.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:37.716000+08:00","text":"主席，這個是雪生修的嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:38.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:39.937000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，我們這邊提的、修的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:40.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:44.500000+08:00","text":"下面的一年內要訂什麼辦法以後再另外處理。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:45.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:53.726000+08:00","text":"這樣啦，我覺得部長有來，署長也有來，可是你們什麼都不要，那到底什麼叫做發展\n觀光條例？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:54.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:39:56.828000+08:00","text":"你們根本就不是發展觀光條例！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:39:58.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:40:11.438000+08:00","text":"一個就是你們要提出特別的管理辦法來輔導它，讓\n它就地合法，可是我們講了老半天，你們也不聽，這樣我不曉得你們要幹嘛！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:40:11.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:40:12.859000+08:00","text":"到年底要幹嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:40:14.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:40:16.574000+08:00","text":"你們有辦法去輔導它嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:40:16.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:40:42.155000+08:00","text":"事實上之前延了那些時間，是有少部分已經合法化了，那你再給它延\n個 5 年，我跟你講，仁至義盡，我給你 5 年，你還是不能成立，那我就公事公辦，這個在做任\n何事情，人家說情、理、法，你不要把法排在前面嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:40:43.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:40:52.401000+08:00","text":"如果是這個，你們是同意，那麼訂定一\n個辦法以後再講無所謂，但是這個時間你們要去把握嘛！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:40:52.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:41:07.349000+08:00","text":"因為我記得你們上次有一個報告提到\n已經輔導了二十幾家，這 5 年當中，我給你們這些人，再給你們 5 年，你們都做不到，那你不\n能怪政府啊！","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:41:08.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:41:35.316000+08:00","text":"所以我是建議部長，有時候這些東西當然就是要考慮到很多面向的問題，這是要促進觀光，\n並非是要縱容，而是歷史上，我已經告訴你們了，政府、國產署，只要是 72 年以前所成立的，\n他們也不強制，他們也是不強制啊！","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:41:35.316000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:41:36.855000+08:00","text":"更何況以一般違章建築的處理方式，我跟你講，我再給你 5\n年，你自己土地變更不來，政府不租給你，是你家的事啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:41:36.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:42:08.530000+08:00","text":"所以一定要有一個時間給人家，這\n才是一個有為政府嘛，才是真正解決問題，但不能說 5 年到了還要再延，那我支持你們用強硬\n339\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n的態度，其他的問題、土地的變更問題、租賃的問題，你們要去解決啊！","quality":0.301},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:42:09.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:42:25.480000+08:00","text":"我辦法給你們，不能\n解決，我坦白講，你們應該要去輔導它，像國土署沒有辦法解決的，你們要用行政的方式讓它\n去變通，變成合法化。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:42:27.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:42:31.818000+08:00","text":"我說實在，你們過去為什麼會去縱容它？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:42:32.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:42:46.364000+08:00","text":"所以我一直在強調，這是歷史\n上的違規，政府當然也要負責任，政府是延續的，不管是國民黨也好、誰執政也好，本來就是\n，為什麼要縱容它？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:42:47.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:43:05.323000+08:00","text":"更何況有些這些既存的，他們都有建照喔，是在它建了以後，我們這個條\n例才開始來管理它。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:43:05.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:43:39.711000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我真的要建議部長還有署長，要有一個行政通融的作法，不\n能叫它延 1 年，延 1 年怎麼處理，它要變更或是國土署要幫忙，都沒有辦法幫忙，所以我還是\n建議，現在這個是經過你們協調，如果能延 5 年，政府已經仁至義盡，踩得很硬，5 年到，你沒\n有辦法去做到我的管理標準，那對不起，你不能怪我們。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:43:39.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:43:45.735000+08:00","text":"所以我是建議，這個延 5 年的部分，我是認為我們政府也不要那麼強硬啦，因為他們所有的\n建照……但是我贊成你們在整個公安部分要非常嚴謹地去顧慮、看管跟監督，這個部分是真的\n要去嚴加管理。","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-11-29T13:44:10.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:44:30.903000+08:00","text":"但是我是建議，這些你們訂定的辦法下一次再來訂是 OK，但是這 5 年時間給它\n，他們如果再做不好，那就不能怪我們政府，我是比較主張延 5 年，其他可以先不要訂定，但\n是在這個部分，政府還是要通融，不是死板板啦，我跟你講，這個牽涉太廣，好不好？","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:44:31.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:44:33.584000+08:00","text":"請陳雪生委員，把你調整的內容說明一下。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:44:34.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:44:39.463000+08:00","text":"昨天署長到我辦公室來，我們研商這個問題，這裡面有變化是不是？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:44:39.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:44:39.764000+08:00","text":"請問召委，這一\n張是誰寫的？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:44:40.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:44:43.870000+08:00","text":"是你的意思還是交通部的意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:44:43.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:05.578000+08:00","text":"應該是觀光署的建議意見，他們有說，如果延 5年不變，但是後面確認一下文字可以調成這\n樣，但他剛剛有說他們的立場還是到年底。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:05.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:13.704000+08:00","text":"我沒有同意他後面這一段，我同意的是昨天我有簽字的那個啊，我簽字不是這一張啦\n！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:15.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:16.746000+08:00","text":"我簽字那個後面沒有這些字眼啊。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:19.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:21.658000+08:00","text":"我看一下好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:21.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:22.658000+08:00","text":"還是給雪生委員看一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:21.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:28.385000+08:00","text":"因為署長你是跟我講只是變動字……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:28.385000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:36.253000+08:00","text":"就是要向……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:36.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:37.074000+08:00","text":"這是我之前的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:37.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:37.355000+08:00","text":"不是吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:39.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:48.265000+08:00","text":"不是啊，我修正的只是 104 年，10 年再展延 5 年，只是\n講再展延 5年就沒有了，下面就沒有啦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:48.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:53.249000+08:00","text":"下面要恢復原來的，沒錯，我們這句話沒有講……","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:53.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:45:57.513000+08:00","text":"對，就之前法律後面是這樣寫的，就等於說沒有變動就接上來。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:45:57.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:46:01.036000+08:00","text":"後面不寫行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員雪生","start":"2024-11-29T13:46:01.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:46:05.519000+08:00","text":"照國成兄的意見，好不好？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:46:07.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:46:09.856000+08:00","text":"好，游顥委員有沒有意見？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:46:10.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:46:10.316000+08:00","text":"這樣好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:46:11.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:46:34.702000+08:00","text":"因為今天政黨協商目前看起來民進黨沒有出席，所\n以政黨協商可能沒有辦法有具體的結論，如果沒有其他意見，我們就把原來我們通過的版本，\n加上今天雪生委員協商、協調的條文部分，一併送院長來做進一步的院會協商。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:07.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:25.344000+08:00","text":"我們今天的協商因為有政黨沒有出席，但還是可以討論，討論結果就是雪生委員自己有提出\n來一個優化的版本，我們併原案送院會，由院長召集協商。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:26.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:31.348000+08:00","text":"所以本案建請院長召集協商，各位\n同不同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:32.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:33.192000+08:00","text":"好，沒有其他意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:34.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:39.598000+08:00","text":"我們正式作成建請院長召集協商，針對第七十條之二的部分。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:39.598000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:43.101000+08:00","text":"340\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n以上。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:43.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:48.466000+08:00","text":"接下來還有第五十三條也要討論的是保留送院會處理。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:49.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:47:53.271000+08:00","text":"觀光署要不要講一下當時保留的點在\n哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:47:54.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:48:17.472000+08:00","text":"特別報告一下，就是有關於這些旅行社的一些相關規範是在第五十三條，譬如說它在\n國外丟包，按照第五十三條的基本精神來講，對於我們國家的這些榮譽、聲譽確實是有損，所\n以這件事情我們還是希望能夠維持原條文。好。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:48:17.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:48:29.978000+08:00","text":"原本我們委員的發言，我還記得，就是擔心你的用途太廣，就是你想到什麼就用了、就\n開罰了，大家是擔心這個。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:48:33.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:48:36.442000+08:00","text":"針對第五十三條，各位委員有沒有其他意見？","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:48:39.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:48:39.604000+08:00","text":"請黃健豪委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:48:39.604000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:48:48.990500+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:48:48.990500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:48:58.377000+08:00","text":"我跟部長、署長講一下，這一條有關玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益，是在\n民國五十幾年，現在講的是這條嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:48:58.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:49:12.406000+08:00","text":"這個部分，依據我跟你們調的資料，你看一下過\n去這些年開罰的案例有幾個，一個就是民國 95 年，因為丟包旅客，經媒體披露之後，影響國家\n形象、玷辱國家榮譽，所以開罰它 15 萬。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:49:12.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:49:29.088000+08:00","text":"另外一個是在近代、109 年 12 月的時候，因為有旅行\n社協助做地下國內外的匯兌業務，破壞國家對金融機構跟市場交易的監督管理，所以影響國家\n利益。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:49:29.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:49:45.770000+08:00","text":"第三個是 110年 5月，是因為防疫的關係，也是認為這損及了國家利益以及有損害消費者\n生命、身體健康之虞，因此罰款 15 萬。","quality":0.106},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:49:45.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:49:57.398000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，這些案例跟玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益\n，我覺得沒有必然關係，剛剛提到的這些案例，比如地下匯兌的部分應該有其他法律可以處理\n；因為疫情發生事情的時候，當時也有特別條例可以處理。","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:49:57.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:50:27.892000+08:00","text":"所以我就覺得這些東西你把它放在\n觀光業裡面，好像變成架在業者脖子上的刀子，我看許宇甄委員的意思是，如果要認定的話，\n應該是經由法院認定，上次說要經由法院認定的時候，司法院又說沒有相關的法律，要去定義\n這件事情非常困難，我就說如果連司法院都覺得這件事情很難定義的話，那麼你在行政裁量上\n要怎麼去定義什麼樣的行為叫做玷辱國家榮譽、什麼叫做損害國家利益？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-11-29T13:50:28.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:50:33.396000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這件事情\n的定義很難明確，這是我提出的一個疑問。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-11-29T13:50:33.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:50:56.682000+08:00","text":"是，因為我們都會按照實際的案例來做裁罰，這件事情也行之有年，也沒有窒礙難行\n之處，其他相關的法令也有類似條文的明定，對於我們在執行公務上來講，確實也比較……就\n拜託委員。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:50:56.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:50:57.485000+08:00","text":"這個司法院有意見嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:50:59.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:51:42.989000+08:00","text":"OK，這樣子好了，我們這幾個版本，因為今天還是一樣有政黨沒有\n來，我們針對多樣化的版本，我也拜託觀光署，在院長協調的時候，能夠稍微再具體化，委員\n擔心的那個部分，譬如說正面表列一些主要的樣態、可能性，你也比較好說明，因為你說不會\n，其實大家也還是擔心，我們希望把樣態更明確化，在院長協調的時候，能夠比較好協商，好\n不好？","quality":0.464},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:51:44.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:51:51.291000+08:00","text":"這個部分一樣就交由院會，由韓院長來召集協商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:51:51.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:51:57.941000+08:00","text":"各位同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:51:57.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:52:04.028000+08:00","text":"同意，以上兩條都交給\n院會，由院長召集協商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:52:04.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-29T13:52:05.049000+08:00","text":"我們今天的政黨協商會議就到這邊為止，謝謝大家參加，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:52:05.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:52:06.691857+08:00","text":"散會（13時 52 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:52:06.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:52:09.849000+08:00","text":"我們現在開始黨團協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:52:10.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:52:45.006143+08:00","text":"今天協商的主題是財政委員會報告併案審查國民黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正\n草案」、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」、\n委員賴瑞隆等 16 人及委員蔡易餘等 16 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草\n案」案。","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:52:45.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:52:55.591857+08:00","text":"今天還有台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案，這是逕付二\n讀的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:52:55.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:53:06.463286+08:00","text":"另外，鄭正鈐委員有提出財政收支劃分法第八條的修正動議，有發到各位桌上，請大家\n參閱。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:53:06.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:53:07.763286+08:00","text":"發了沒？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:53:08.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:53:10.634714+08:00","text":"請發一下，大家看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:53:10.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:53:43.791857+08:00","text":"我們請各提案委員、黨團代表、政府官員財政部莊部長分別就本次協商主題財政收支劃分法\n部分條文修正案表達意見，黨團代表有提案的有伍麗華委員，因為沒有到，賴瑞隆委員沒有到\n，蔡易餘委員也沒有到，那麼國民黨團鄭正鈐委員，還是民眾黨珊珊委員要不要先表示一下意\n見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T13:53:44.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:53:46.091857+08:00","text":"大概 3分鐘到 5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:53:46.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:53:47.534714+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:53:47.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:54:38.977571+08:00","text":"大家其實對財劃法都多所指教，而且我們這個案子大概上個會期就提出來\n了，接下來的內容雖然保留，但是各個版本還是差別很大，我想民眾黨的版本其實很清楚，也\n把垂直分配說得很明白，至於水平分配，我們並沒有特別一定要怎麼樣的方式，所以我們希望\n在這一個月的冷凍期，我們很期待看到行政院的版本，當然也希望看到國民黨接下來要修正的\n版本，但是到今天為止，我還沒有看到相關的版本，大概就只看到正鈐委員的這一份。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:54:39.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:55:20.706143+08:00","text":"主要還\n是一樣，我還是要對行政院還有財政部拜託，在這段時間裡面，大家對於財劃法都可以公開、\n理性的討論，但是真的不要再抹黑跟造謠，尤其是最近我們拿到了世界經典賽的棒球冠軍，但\n是現在竟然出現相關的論點是，只要財劃法修正，國光獎金會減半，這是一個非常嚴重的指控\n，我覺得財劃法是國家大政跟個別或個別所謂的補助並不是直接相關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:55:21.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:55:49.577571+08:00","text":"但是現在包括主計處也\n好，財政部也好，對於財劃法的修正，不好好的提出版本，只是一再的用可能會影響誰的經費\n、誰的補助來製造人民對這件事情的誤解，另外就是製造政黨的對立，我覺得這兩件事情都不\n是我們今天要修財劃法的主要目的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:55:49.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:56:41.020429+08:00","text":"財劃法主要目的很清楚的是，在不影響中央政府的運作下\n，台灣民眾黨的版本非常清楚，我們大概是兩千多億到 3,000 億，內容就把所有垂直分配的標準\n講得非常得清楚，但是水平分配，既然財政部說它現在的版本就是最好的版本，我們也希望財\n342\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n政部把它最好的版本，有關水平分配的方式、指標跟相關所有的比例跟公式都提出來，大家可\n以公開的討論，而不是一味的……不提出就算了，然後還製造新的衝突。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:56:41.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:57:10.463286+08:00","text":"第二個部分，有關財劃法修正案的內容，裡面這麼多的版本，表示大家對於這些內容都非常\n、非常在意，也希望垂直分配的部分，財政部，我們一再的跟主計處說如果你認為影響到你的\n哪一些，你告訴我影響到哪一些，你釋出了 3,000 億，你會優先刪減哪一些？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:57:10.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:57:31.049000+08:00","text":"你釋出了 3,000 億\n，你會優先砍掉地方補助款的哪一些，這些話，財政部、主計處都不說，就說國光獎金會減半\n，說健保、勞保補貼會減半，甚至我在想是不是我們大家的薪水都會減半？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:57:31.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:57:56.491857+08:00","text":"什麼都不講，現在\n的狀況就是財政部跟行政院在這麼長的一段時間，立法院已經給了你們很多的時間，我們希望\n你們提出說法，如果釋出 2,000 億是可以的，也請你說出來，釋出 1,000 億也可以的，你也可以\n說出來，可是都不說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:57:56.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:58:28.506143+08:00","text":"現在國民黨的修正版，我們到現在還沒有看到，我們也希望國民黨的內容，從媒體的報導裡\n面，也請財政部算出相關的金額，其實慢慢趨近台灣民眾黨的版本，我們也期待財政部跟行政\n院也慢慢趨近，跟在野黨大家一起來討論接下來的財劃法，垂直分配到底多少比較合適。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:58:28.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:59:00.806143+08:00","text":"而水\n平分配的方式，我們對於相關的縣市的貢獻度，還有現在財政部所說它的分配指標，我們也希\n望拿出來公開的討論，各個縣市政府都有他們的需求，他們的人口、面積，以及對財政的貢獻\n，我相信每個縣市政府都有它想要說的話，我們也希望這是一個可以公開討論的園地。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:59:01.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:59:27.106143+08:00","text":"但是立\n法院經過這麼長的時間，雖然縣市政府都有表示在增加垂直分配之後，在水平分配絕對不會比\n現在少的情況下，其實縣市政府目前為止也都能夠安然的接受，我覺得這個部分才是現在是我\n們修財劃法最好的時機。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:59:27.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T13:59:45.691857+08:00","text":"25 年沒有修正，中央拿到了這些權力不願意下放，地方政府不知道自\n己明年會有多少錢，要看補助款有多少來決定它要做多少建設，這都不是一個健康的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T13:59:45.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:00:13.134714+08:00","text":"所以民眾黨這邊的態度很清楚，我們的版本很早就提出來，金額也都算得很清楚，我們也希\n望各個政黨，包括行政院、包括民進黨團，我們希望你們有自己的版本跟立場，而不是一味的\n說只要拿 1 塊錢，就會影響到所有的補助款都會減半。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:00:13.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:00:30.291857+08:00","text":"第二個就是國民黨版本，我們看到媒體\n上面的報導，我們也希望趕緊看到國民黨的版本，我們一起來討論怎麼樣來趨近大家都認為合\n理的方案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:00:30.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:01:10.306143+08:00","text":"所以民眾黨沒有針對水平分配特別去做限制，因為我們希望將來的水平分配也是一\n個讓地方政府可以參與，讓財政部能夠保留一些彈性，所以在水平分配的方式，我們希望能夠\n讓大家共同來參與跟討論，而不是像現在的狀況財政部說了算，我看你可憐就給你多一點，或\n者是你比較聽話，我就給你多一點，這個都不是一個健康的財政狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:01:10.606143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:01:26.606143+08:00","text":"所以，台灣民眾黨希望\n能夠儘速的在院長協商或在院會表決前，能夠看到財政部的版本，當然我們也希望儘快的看到\n國民黨的版本，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:01:26.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:01:29.191857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黃珊珊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:01:29.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:01:34.349000+08:00","text":"接著我們請財政部莊部長表示一下意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:01:34.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:02:03.220429+08:00","text":"謝謝主席以及黃委員的指教，我想財劃法修正的這個事情，大家都非常的關注，我首\n先要說明的就是，第一個，財政部對於各個黨團以及各委員的一些建議，我們都非常重視，因\n此財政部先蒐集了各地方政府的意見，然後我們也召開了相關的會議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:02:03.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:02:27.806143+08:00","text":"剛剛委員所提的水平分\n343\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n配裡面的指標，我們知道各個地方政府都非常熱心，而且提出了八十幾項的指標，我們把它歸\n整，這裡面非常重要的就是基本建設需求及財政努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:02:28.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:02:51.249000+08:00","text":"八十幾項指標經過財政部兩次的會議長\n時間的一些討論以後，我們都凝聚起來了，目前有 3 個指標還有爭議，也就是污染防治、節能\n的部分，還有一個是節流，就是支出節流的部分，這個部分還沒有共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:02:51.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:03:20.977571+08:00","text":"除了指標之外，其實\n分配裡面還有一個重要的部分就是權重，也就是每個指標要給它多少權重，以及指標裡面有沒\n有就結構的部分要更進一步的討論，如果只是就人口數一個單一的絕對數字來做討論的話可能\n是不夠的，因為人口裡面有不同的結構。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:03:21.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:03:43.277571+08:00","text":"那土地面積，各地方的土地面積雖然有一定的數據，\n但是土地裡面，建築用地可以蓋大房子的，與做國土保育、做農業、養殖、造林等能夠產生的\n產值，以及就業人口也不同，都需要進一步的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:03:43.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:03:56.434714+08:00","text":"所以財政部其實非常努力在這個部分跟各\n地方政府在溝通，這是有關水平分配指標的部分，我們一直在進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:03:56.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:04:26.449000+08:00","text":"第二個，立法院也開過兩次公聽會，公聽會裡面許多的專家學者都提出財劃法很重要，但是\n財劃法裡面更重要的「財」、「權」這兩個要相配合，也就是說中央跟地方怎麼樣分配就涉及\n到事權的劃分，事權劃分清楚以後才有考慮到支出，因為你要做事必須要有錢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:04:26.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:04:52.749000+08:00","text":"而支出怎麼劃\n分，支出劃分以後才有所謂收入的劃分，但是我們都還沒有進入後面的討論，直接就把所謂的\n數據提出來，幾千億、幾千億，我覺得這個部分事實上應該要再做更精進的討論，就是財劃法\n其實它涉及的層面很廣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:04:53.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:05:13.906143+08:00","text":"現在雖然 25 年財劃法沒有修正，沒有修正的理由，5 次也曾經提出版本來，但是沒有能夠修\n正通過，也就是因為沒有共識，所以我們認為取得最大的共識、把歧見縮小是非常重要的事情\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:05:14.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:05:23.920429+08:00","text":"因此縱使提出版本，但是沒有共識的情況下，也很難完成修法，這就是共識的重要性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:05:24.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:06:05.934714+08:00","text":"但是\n我們還是要說明的就是，中央跟地方是屬於夥伴關係，雖然 25 年沒有修正，但是中央透過統籌\n分配稅款的分配之外，還有一般性的補助款，以及計畫的補助款，對於地方的財政挹注不遺餘\n力，我們可以看到 103 年到 114 年成長了 85%，中央統籌分配稅款的分配是依照公式，所以沒\n有所謂財政部高興給誰就給誰，財政部是依照中央統籌分配稅款裡面的公式去分配的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:06:06.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:06:42.234714+08:00","text":"中央統\n籌分配稅款因為我們經濟的成長，其實它的規模也一直成長，我們看 113 年中央統籌分配稅款是\n4,043 億，但是因為經濟成長、稅收好，今年還會再增加大概有 400 億會再分配出去，明年以目\n前 114 年預算案來看，可以到 4,740 億，加上一般性補助款及計畫型補助款可以到 1 兆 151 億，\n所以中央對地方的財政挹注是一直在擴大的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:06:42.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:00.534714+08:00","text":"另外，地方財政的情況也大幅的改善，從 101 年地方是短絀 589 億，到了 104 年的時候是有\n餘絀的，是 117 億；那到 112 年事實上是有餘絀到 648 億，所以地方的財政其實也一直在改善。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:00.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:25.406143+08:00","text":"我想這個部分是中央對地方一直是以合作夥伴的關係在進行，中央會就各個地方因為情況不同\n、工商條件不同，以及它所能夠創造的稅源不同，然後給予一些不同的分配，我想在一般性補\n助款裡面都給予支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:25.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:40.277571+08:00","text":"另外，在計畫型尤其是跨域的一些大的建設，其實中央也是一直在挹注\n這方面的財源，我想這個部分我們要特別做說明，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:40.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:42.006143+08:00","text":"謝謝莊部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:42.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:52.306143+08:00","text":"國民黨團的部分請賴士葆委員說明一下，簡單提案說明，我們等一下再進入逐\n條討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:52.606143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:56.891857+08:00","text":"344\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:57.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:07:59.477571+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、各位先進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:07:59.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:08:15.206143+08:00","text":"很高興大家能夠坐下來理性的討論財劃法，那麼 25 年來沒有\n修，剛才部長說是夥伴關係，這個話講得非常好，可是事實上是夥伴關係嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:08:15.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:08:17.791857+08:00","text":"不是，是上下關\n係嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:08:18.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:08:23.520429+08:00","text":"現在為什麼每一個縣市都希望能夠修財劃法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:08:23.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:08:38.106143+08:00","text":"包括賴清德總統沒有當總統之前，他也要\n修，黃偉哲也想修，陳其邁也想修，大家都想修，就是大家希望能夠自主財源多一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:08:38.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:08:46.691857+08:00","text":"現在財\n政部不管你怎麼講說對地方政府多好多好，那個都施捨式的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:08:46.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:08:48.420429+08:00","text":"恩給式的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:08:48.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:09:04.720429+08:00","text":"我們現在就是希\n望能夠有一定的公式，回到 25 年前，中央地方 6 比 4，現在是 75%對 25%，這裡面來講，也不\n需要來扣帽子，就是把 15%的決定權交給地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:09:05.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:09:35.877571+08:00","text":"我先講一下，現在財政部不斷地用一個是似而非的理由來反對提出版本，老實講，上個會期\n結束之前，我們都已經決議了，財委會已經通過了，說財政部今年開議之前要提出版本，後來\n沒有提，沒有提的理由就是剛剛講的說各縣市水平分配沒有弄好，這個、那個等等的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:09:36.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:09:45.891857+08:00","text":"我的版\n本跟剛才黃珊珊委員講的很像，我的版本就是中央給地方 3,000 億左右，怎麼分？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:09:46.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:10:04.763286+08:00","text":"你們要按原來\n的公式分，都不要改變，都不要改變，都不需要什麼的，就都不要改變，但是這個錢主動給地\n方，按照法律定下來就是給地方 3,000 億左右，這是我的版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:10:05.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:10:23.349000+08:00","text":"可是你看我的版本沒有被送進來\n，被送進來只有 4 個版本，民進黨 3 個版本，伍麗華、蔡易餘還有賴瑞隆等 3 個版本，加上國\n民黨的 1 個版本，其他的是民眾黨有 1 個版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:10:23.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:10:44.220429+08:00","text":"而我的版本很清爽，就只有把中央的 3,000 億左\n右放給地方，你看很多學者也都支持這樣的看法，財政部不斷講說有公式可以分配，都給你們\n分配嘛，你們這麼愛分配就給你們分配。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:10:44.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:10:58.806143+08:00","text":"各縣市也不會去吵，因為如果一定要到水平分配，大\n家都通通搞定了才決定的話，那這個無解，這個無解啦，這個最後無解啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:10:59.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:11:23.106143+08:00","text":"因為每一個縣市有一定的想法，我土地權重多一點、我人口權重多一點等等的，我的財政努\n力，比如說臺北市、新竹市這方面財政努力很多，營業稅要不要有一定的確保，這些都是大家\n來討論，很多地方的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:11:23.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:11:51.120429+08:00","text":"所以我們覺得現在已經火車開到這裡來了，就大家心平氣和的坐下\n來討論是不是就是垂直分配，我個人的主張是水平分配就由財政部來決定，財政部這麼愛決定\n就財政部決定，所以這樣來講的話，也都沒有太大的疙瘩，沒有太大的扞格。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:11:51.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:11:58.849000+08:00","text":"最後一個我要強調的，部長剛剛講的，權跟錢要放在一起，可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:11:59.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:06.291857+08:00","text":"你多給地方 3,000 億了，\n你就規定什麼事情給地方做，沒有問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:06.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:08.020429+08:00","text":"沒有問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:08.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:23.749000+08:00","text":"錢本來就跟權要放在一起的，你 3,000\n億分出去了，那你就告訴我們什麼事情就是地方政府來做，地方政府扛下來，當然扛下來，沒\n問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:24.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:40.334714+08:00","text":"這個事情是 money talks，講錢的事情是非常務實，不需要把它政治化，不需要說這樣\n挖了以後，我沒有這個錢、沒有那個錢，不會啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:40.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:43.777571+08:00","text":"各位，回到 6 比 4，中央還是多啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:44.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:45.220429+08:00","text":"還是 60%\n啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:45.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:12:55.806143+08:00","text":"我們只是這麼可憐的、我們很低聲的希望有 15%先法定就撥給地方，而不是靠中央的施捨\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:12:56.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:07.534714+08:00","text":"目前是靠中央的施捨，把地方政府當乞丐一樣，我高興了多給你一點，你說你有共識，就來\n看結果嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:07.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:20.406143+08:00","text":"這八年來的結果，六都來講，第一名是臺南市，第二名是高雄市，最後一名是臺北\n市，你們分的結果就這樣子啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:20.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:25.563286+08:00","text":"分的結果就是這樣，六都來講就是這樣啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:25.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:32.720429+08:00","text":"數字會說話，各位\n，數字會說話，怎麼樣第一名就是臺南市啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:33.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:35.591857+08:00","text":"第二名就是高雄市啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:35.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:37.891857+08:00","text":"完全也是在分嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:38.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:45.906143+08:00","text":"那我們\n是說你現在就把 3,000 億先給地方政府，怎麼分還是給你分嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:46.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:13:49.063286+08:00","text":"你這麼愛分就給你分啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:13:49.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:14:13.934714+08:00","text":"就沒有\n水平分配的分歧問題，這個水平分配每一個因素都考慮了，每一個人都可以講一堆，像是這裡\n345\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n面原來有礦區稅的問題，原來有保護農地的問題等等，每一個人都可以講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:14:14.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:14:41.377571+08:00","text":"如果都堅持那一點\n，再修 20 年也修不完，所以我是覺得這一次就看大家怎麼樣，我們是希望大家能夠平心靜氣，\n好好地看待這一部財劃法，25 年來沒有修，大家都在躬逢其盛地創造歷史，如果能夠修過，大\n家在功勞簿上也真的都可以記一筆。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:14:41.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:14:51.677571+08:00","text":"不須要說一定不可以修，民進黨也不見得一定永遠執政嘛\n，萬一下一次 2028 換我們執政呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:14:51.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:14:53.406143+08:00","text":"你要不要修？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:14:53.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:15:14.563286+08:00","text":"你還不是會想修，所以我覺得為一勞永逸，就\n回到 25 年前中央、地方是 6 比 4，中央的餅還是比較大，地方的餅小，占 40%，這麼多人要分\n，你說權跟錢要放一起，可以，什麼事情交給地方做，你講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:15:14.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:15:17.149000+08:00","text":"大家來做就是了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:15:17.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:15:34.591857+08:00","text":"這是我簡\n單的報告，因為我本來有提案，但是沒有送出委員會，我還是希望我的版本能夠送進來，就是\n垂直分配，至於水平分配由財政部決定，就這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:15:34.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:15:43.177571+08:00","text":"謝謝賴委員，郭委員等一下，我們現在……因為剛剛是提案的那些報告、說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:15:43.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:15:44.906143+08:00","text":"他有提案嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:15:45.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:15:54.063286+08:00","text":"不是，他代表國民黨團，剛剛黃珊珊代表民眾黨團，然後財政部代表政府說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:15:54.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:04.363286+08:00","text":"請財政部長跟主計長坐下來，我們坐過來這邊，各位委員也坐過來這裡，我們逐條討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:04.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:06.663286+08:00","text":"先讓我們回應嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:06.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:11.534714+08:00","text":"還沒有逐條之前，先讓我們回應一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:11.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:14.406143+08:00","text":"他講的也不是逐條啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:14.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:19.849000+08:00","text":"沒有，我是代表國民黨團的，我不是代表個人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:20.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:24.720429+08:00","text":"部長跟主計長，你們坐這邊比較好討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:25.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:28.449000+08:00","text":"我們也是另一種回應，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:28.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:31.320429+08:00","text":"先讓我回應嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:31.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:37.906143+08:00","text":"因為協商是有提案的人才有說明，剛剛那是提案說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:38.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:39.920429+08:00","text":"有提案的黨團……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:40.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:45.077571+08:00","text":"這是委員會的協商，每一個人都有發言權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:45.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:47.949000+08:00","text":"那就先讓我講一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:48.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:49.963286+08:00","text":"按照什麼程序？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:50.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:55.406143+08:00","text":"我看剛剛有提到內政部，民政司長也有來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:55.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:16:57.991857+08:00","text":"是不是坐前面一點？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:16:58.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:03.434714+08:00","text":"他的提案我們有意見，難道我們不能回應嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:03.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:07.449000+08:00","text":"不是啦，還沒有開始到那個階段。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:07.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:12.606143+08:00","text":"沒有，他是大體說明，我是大體回應，不行噢！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:12.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:18.906143+08:00","text":"提案說明時，他是大體說明，我們大體回應也不行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:19.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:21.491857+08:00","text":"為什麼我不能回應？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:21.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:32.363286+08:00","text":"協商有一個流程，我都知道，一定會有流程，你還有很多流程，不用擔心，你一定會有說的\n機會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:32.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:42.949000+08:00","text":"346\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n第三條是伍麗華委員的提案，大家有沒有什麼意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:43.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:45.534714+08:00","text":"第三條你們看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:45.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:46.977571+08:00","text":"請郭委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:47.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:48.420429+08:00","text":"我先說嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:48.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:50.149000+08:00","text":"沒有啦，主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:50.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:52.734714+08:00","text":"你是要怎麼討論啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:53.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:17:59.034714+08:00","text":"沒有，就是按照一條、一條地過，像伍麗華是第三條嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:17:59.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:03.049000+08:00","text":"就從伍麗華的這一條開始。主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:03.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:04.349000+08:00","text":"在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:04.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:06.077571+08:00","text":"我沒資料啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:06.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:07.806143+08:00","text":"沒有啊！主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:08.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:13.249000+08:00","text":"這一本，可能剛剛簽到那裡就沒有給他……好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:13.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:16.977571+08:00","text":"趁發資料的同時，把握時間嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:17.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:20.134714+08:00","text":"大家的時間都非常寶貴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:20.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:25.291857+08:00","text":"第三條伍麗華的這條，他是針對……好啦！那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:25.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:29.591857+08:00","text":"我大概講一下，它是說針對山地區……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:29.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:32.749000+08:00","text":"好啦，你就讓我講一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:33.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:18:37.906143+08:00","text":"你說會讓我有時間講，就讓我講嘛，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:18:38.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:04.206143+08:00","text":"我覺得剛剛賴士葆委員一直強調心平氣和，其實這部案子確實要心平氣和，他還強調了幾點\n，一個是心平氣和；一個是所謂的年代久遠所以該修的這種說法；第三個，他提到了所謂比例\n的問題，我把重點濃縮起來大概就這 3個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:04.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:08.791857+08:00","text":"第一個，老實說我們有沒有心平氣和？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:09.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:11.377571+08:00","text":"當然要心平氣和啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:11.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:32.534714+08:00","text":"但是強行通過的其實不是我們，\n然後他也特別強調，錢與權要一併討論，這個就是為什麼我們會討論那麼久的原因，從上個會\n期到現在這個會期會討論這麼久，關鍵原因就在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:32.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:36.549000+08:00","text":"我們一直很心平氣和地在談啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:36.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:39.420429+08:00","text":"結果強\n行通過的是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:39.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:19:57.720429+08:00","text":"早上 6 點強制動員到委員會當中，連講話都不能講話，只要靠近講台就被暴力\n相向，那個張智倫啊，馬上扭我脖子，那個黃國昌……黃珊珊要替我主持正義一下啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:19:58.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:08.020429+08:00","text":"他在旁\n邊直播都不下來討論，就說什麼我打人，同樣都是姓黃的居然差那麼多，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:08.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:12.891857+08:00","text":"所以在這種\n情況底下，你怎麼心平氣和？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:13.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:18.334714+08:00","text":"根本從頭到尾就沒有心平氣和好好討論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:18.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:22.063286+08:00","text":"更何況，我們一直強調，錢與權……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:22.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:26.077571+08:00","text":"我現在回應他，大家溝通一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:26.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:30.663286+08:00","text":"347\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:30.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:33.249000+08:00","text":"內容要先講清楚嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:33.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:40.691857+08:00","text":"錢與權要講清楚，當初講錢與權的時候，權就是地方制度法嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:40.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:43.849000+08:00","text":"地方制度法在講的時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:44.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:47.577571+08:00","text":"有道理，所以內政部民政司長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:47.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:51.306143+08:00","text":"主席，請尊重一下我的發言權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:51.606143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:54.463286+08:00","text":"地方制度法就是錢與權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:54.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:20:59.049000+08:00","text":"不是，每個人講 3分鐘，每個人都要講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:20:59.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:04.777571+08:00","text":"地方制度法的權怎麼可能在財劃法裡頭解決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:05.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:10.506143+08:00","text":"當然是另一部法令的權是屬於地方政府\n的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:10.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:25.949000+08:00","text":"中央政府跟地方分權，然後財政收支劃分法是分錢，概念是如此，當初就說這個財劃法\n跟地方制度法要一併思考的原因就在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:26.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:36.820429+08:00","text":"現在你強行通過送到這邊，說要馬上進入逐條討論，現在錢跟權要一起談，這開什麼玩笑嘛\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:37.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:40.834714+08:00","text":"你為什麼不回到之前好好談呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:41.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:42.134714+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:42.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:51.006143+08:00","text":"賴士葆委員在財政委員會是內行人，內行人就不要\n講那種外行話，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:51.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:21:58.163286+08:00","text":"他一直在講比例的問題，那你怎麼不講絕對金額的問題呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:21:58.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:00.463286+08:00","text":"絕對金額\n差多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:00.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:04.477571+08:00","text":"絕對金額是你拿掉 6,612 億，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:04.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:11.063286+08:00","text":"就內容來說，國光獎金也會被減半的原因就在這\n邊嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:11.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:17.077571+08:00","text":"所以我說帶風向，中央政府沒有錢的話，你怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:17.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:19.091857+08:00","text":"當然是要切啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:19.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:22.820429+08:00","text":"減半只是剛剛好而\n已，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:23.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:49.977571+08:00","text":"所以在這種情況底下，你要看絕對金額，從絕對金額來看，到去年為止，地方政\n府的賸餘款還高達六百多億沒有辦法執行完成，結果剩下六百多億你們沒有辦法執行完成，你\n們又給地方政府 6,612 億，又給了它十倍，這樣要叫它怎麼執行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:50.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:54.563286+08:00","text":"要執行的不只是錢，還有權，\n還有什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:54.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:22:55.863286+08:00","text":"還有人！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:22:56.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:00.163286+08:00","text":"你沒有權、沒有人怎麼執行這些錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:00.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:08.463286+08:00","text":"一個 52 億的連江縣，又多給它一百多億，讓它 double，它怎麼執行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:08.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:14.763286+08:00","text":"所以我跟你講，國民黨\n這部法案真的是禍國殃民啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:15.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:22.206143+08:00","text":"剛剛賴士葆委員說大家都有功勞，我才不要跟你同樣有罪咧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:22.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:23.934714+08:00","text":"有\n什麼功勞！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:24.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:27.091857+08:00","text":"這是大家都一起有罪欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:27.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:30.534714+08:00","text":"知道為什麼是禍國殃民嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:30.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:34.549000+08:00","text":"他說我們執政的時候要不要改\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:34.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:41.706143+08:00","text":"我跟你講，到時候搞不好是你們執政的時候你們才想要改。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:42.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:23:58.291857+08:00","text":"中央怎麼去 run，根本沒有辦法\nrun，你現在找的不是執政黨的麻煩，你找的是國家的麻煩、找的是人民的麻煩，我講白一點是\n這樣子嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:23:58.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:05.734714+08:00","text":"哪有一部法案隨便通過，大筆一揮然後 6,612 億就要拿到地方去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:06.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:13.749000+08:00","text":"毫無計畫、毫無權\n力，在沒有人可以執行的情況底下，你就硬要通過！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:14.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:30.620429+08:00","text":"再說，剛剛還講到年份的問題，說財政收支劃分法 25 年沒有修改，那我就請教賴士葆委員，\n你知道財政收支劃分法一開始的歷史法源是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:30.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:37.491857+08:00","text":"它歷史上的法源是在 1954 年，第一次大\n動這部法是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:37.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:40.077571+08:00","text":"是 1981 年，相隔幾年？27 年耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:40.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:52.377571+08:00","text":"1981 年之後一直到 1999 年是因為凍省\n的關係體制不得不然，政治所造成的結果才要進行修法，又相隔了 18 年之久。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:52.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:24:56.106143+08:00","text":"1999 年到現在為\n什麼相隔那麼久？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:24:56.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:04.406143+08:00","text":"中間大家一直想要修，老實講，馬英九政府也想要修，但為什麼修不成？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:04.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:08.991857+08:00","text":"蔡\n英文政府也想要修，為什麼修不成？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:09.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:11.863286+08:00","text":"不是那麼容易修的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:12.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:26.163286+08:00","text":"不是大家不願意修，而是沒那麼容\n易修，所以要花多一點時間來做溝通，這不是怠惰的問題，而是共識不容易解決的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:26.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:42.749000+08:00","text":"我再次強調，不是國民黨比較聰明，而是國民黨比較粗魯，國民黨比較粗暴，才硬要把這個\n版本送到這個委員會，然後要把它送出去，否則的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:43.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:49.049000+08:00","text":"好，那個黃珊珊……\n348\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:49.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:25:52.777571+08:00","text":"根本不應該如此草率地修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:25:53.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:01.363286+08:00","text":"奇怪了，剛剛他說就沒有時間限制，為什麼我講的時候就有時間限制呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:01.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:06.806143+08:00","text":"沒有，我是說 3到 5分鐘，每一位都可以說 3到 5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:07.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:11.106143+08:00","text":"可是他就講了不只 3到 5分鐘，很奇怪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:11.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:13.120429+08:00","text":"我已經講不只？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:13.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:15.420429+08:00","text":"你有幫我計時嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:15.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:18.291857+08:00","text":"剛剛他講話有計時嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:18.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:22.877571+08:00","text":"你們對我有計時，你們對他有計時嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:23.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:32.606143+08:00","text":"不然你問他，賴士葆委員是從 46分開始，他講到 50 分，講了 4分鐘，我們有記註，我們都\n有在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:32.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:35.191857+08:00","text":"那就重新規定一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:35.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:38.634714+08:00","text":"沒有，你的我也是重新算的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:38.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:41.220429+08:00","text":"我給你大概有 6分鐘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:41.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:44.949000+08:00","text":"這沒有道理，為什麼一個……主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:45.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:50.677571+08:00","text":"我們上次開會的時候，內政部因為民政司有來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:50.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:26:54.406143+08:00","text":"我們是來開會不是來亂的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:26:54.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:02.706143+08:00","text":"一開始我們還想只有 4分鐘而已，你超過這麼多時間還\n一直講、一直講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:03.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:08.149000+08:00","text":"內政部司長，我們上次不是有決議你們要送……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:08.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:09.877571+08:00","text":"尊重主席嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:10.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:15.320429+08:00","text":"我現在在公開的場合講的，哪一件事情不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:15.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:17.334714+08:00","text":"超過 5分鐘了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:17.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:20.206143+08:00","text":"你講 4分鐘，他講了 6 分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:20.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:29.649000+08:00","text":"法案本來就要討論，溝通不同的意見，為什麼不同的意見，你都沒有辦法接受呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:29.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:31.663286+08:00","text":"哪\n有這種道理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:31.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:40.249000+08:00","text":"鄭司長，我們上次開會有決議內政部要送東西過來，你們怎麼沒送過來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:40.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:41.977571+08:00","text":"你不知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:42.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:44.277571+08:00","text":"哪有這種道理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:44.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:52.291857+08:00","text":"上一次找他們來，你就給他們放鴿子了，讓他們再回去了！不是！不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:52.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:56.877571+08:00","text":"349\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:57.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:27:58.606143+08:00","text":"強行通過啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:27:58.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:09.763286+08:00","text":"再往前一次，我們有作成結論請你們要送東西過來，因為郭委員一直強調財劃法要事權，也\n要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:10.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:17.491857+08:00","text":"財劃法是如此複雜，那麼大的工程，不是隨便大筆一揮就要通過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:17.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:20.649000+08:00","text":"你們為什麼都沒送過來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:20.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:25.520429+08:00","text":"內政部怎麼這麼怠惰，上次是次長來的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:25.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:30.391857+08:00","text":"我再說，你們國民黨版本當中還不一樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:30.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:36.977571+08:00","text":"國民黨的版本還不同，國民黨一下子「金孫條款」要拿掉……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:37.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:42.134714+08:00","text":"剛剛賴士葆委員說他相近黃珊珊的版本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:42.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:47.291857+08:00","text":"你對伍麗華委員版本第三條有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:47.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:49.020429+08:00","text":"還是不同意……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:49.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:53.320429+08:00","text":"所以你們的版本內容完全不同嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:53.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:28:59.620429+08:00","text":"你急於想要修法、草率修法，才會造成今天這個結\n果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:28:59.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:03.349000+08:00","text":"當然有意見，怎麼會沒有意見！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:03.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:07.077571+08:00","text":"等一下，黃珊珊講完換李坤城……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:07.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:09.091857+08:00","text":"郭國文不要再……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:09.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:12.534714+08:00","text":"郭國文委員尊重一下好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:12.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:14.834714+08:00","text":"李坤城也要發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:15.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:16.563286+08:00","text":"粗暴到極點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:16.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:18.006143+08:00","text":"哪裡粗暴？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:18.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:19.449000+08:00","text":"都有討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:19.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:22.891857+08:00","text":"我們當然沒有辦法接受啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:23.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:27.763286+08:00","text":"哪有粗暴的把整個委員會中心主義都……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:28.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:30.920429+08:00","text":"請尊重一下主席，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:31.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:33.220429+08:00","text":"我先問一下司長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:33.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:35.234714+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:35.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:39.249000+08:00","text":"你越說我越要講，為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:39.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:46.406143+08:00","text":"你一直干擾我，我還沒講完，你就找司長回答是什麼意思啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:46.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:50.991857+08:00","text":"我還沒講完，你為什麼不給我講？不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:51.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:57.291857+08:00","text":"等一下李坤城也要講，你要不要留一點給李坤城講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:57.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:29:59.020429+08:00","text":"你一直插嘴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:29:59.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:03.034714+08:00","text":"你在干擾我還是我在干擾你啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:03.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:06.763286+08:00","text":"是我在發言還是你在發言啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:07.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:09.349000+08:00","text":"我為什麼不能發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:09.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:13.934714+08:00","text":"350\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:14.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:18.806143+08:00","text":"3分鐘已經到了，他們沒有人講得比你多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:19.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:21.677571+08:00","text":"你剛開始有講 3 分鐘嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:21.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:24.834714+08:00","text":"你隨便講一講，有按鈴嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:25.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:28.849000+08:00","text":"我為什麼不能講，我還沒有講完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:29.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:34.863286+08:00","text":"大家都有聽到，每個人都有聽到，要不要調錄影帶？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:35.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:38.020429+08:00","text":"如果我有說 3到 5分鐘的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:38.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:40.034714+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:40.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:41.477571+08:00","text":"按鈴了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:41.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:42.920429+08:00","text":"按鈴了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:43.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:44.363286+08:00","text":"按鈴了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:44.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:48.091857+08:00","text":"那就 3分鐘，你已經講了 6分鐘了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:48.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:30:52.106143+08:00","text":"我剛剛講的哪一件事不是事實？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:30:52.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:03.549000+08:00","text":"我講歷史的講歷史、講金額的講金額、講法律的講法律、講內容的講內容，我哪一個\n講的不是事實？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:03.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:06.134714+08:00","text":"你已經第二次講了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:06.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:08.149000+08:00","text":"什麼第二次講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:08.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:10.734714+08:00","text":"我一氣呵成不行喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:11.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:13.034714+08:00","text":"趕快提出版本嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:13.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:15.620429+08:00","text":"你只是在拖而已啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:15.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:17.634714+08:00","text":"我理解，沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:17.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:19.934714+08:00","text":"我為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:20.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:22.234714+08:00","text":"我為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:22.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:27.963286+08:00","text":"到底哪個版本是黃珊珊的版本，你要講清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:28.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:29.977571+08:00","text":"我還沒講話耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:30.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:31.991857+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:32.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:34.006143+08:00","text":"我就要一直講！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:34.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:35.734714+08:00","text":"李坤城，快講！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:36.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:39.749000+08:00","text":"我剛剛一直講，他一直在插嘴啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:40.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:43.763286+08:00","text":"我剛剛一直講，他一直在插嘴啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:44.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:46.349000+08:00","text":"你已經講了 6、7、8分鐘了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:46.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:55.220429+08:00","text":"我剛剛講了多久，就是因為你一直插嘴，我才越講越久，事情都是你造成的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:55.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:31:58.949000+08:00","text":"如果不會主持，你就換人做嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:31:59.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:00.249000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:00.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:04.834714+08:00","text":"請你尊重我，現在換你尊重我的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:05.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:06.849000+08:00","text":"你有尊重我嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:07.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:11.149000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講話的時候，你有尊重我嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:11.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:15.734714+08:00","text":"351\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:16.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:21.463286+08:00","text":"又不是在 KTV，兩個人拿著麥克風在搶麥啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:21.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:22.763286+08:00","text":"搞什麼！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:23.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:27.063286+08:00","text":"你為什麼要移轉焦點給內政部講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:27.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:32.220429+08:00","text":"內政部要做相關的資料，你們都沒有送來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:32.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:37.377571+08:00","text":"我都還沒講完，你就找內政部講，什麼意思？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:37.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:44.534714+08:00","text":"上次你不要強行通過內政部就可以講，\n不用在這邊講了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:44.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:50.263286+08:00","text":"我們有決議，你們沒有送來，你們不能這麼懈怠……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:50.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:53.991857+08:00","text":"你不用假了，陳玉珍，什麼懈怠！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:54.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:32:59.149000+08:00","text":"上次他們就應該要講了，上次沒給他們講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:32:59.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:00.591857+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:00.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:04.891857+08:00","text":"我尊重主席，主席從來沒有尊重我！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:05.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:09.191857+08:00","text":"主席，我在講話之前他就一直插嘴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:09.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:13.777571+08:00","text":"李坤城也要講，他把你的時間占掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:14.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:16.934714+08:00","text":"我要告訴他什麼叫尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:17.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:19.806143+08:00","text":"對不起，沒有這樣子的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:20.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:21.820429+08:00","text":"這是我的時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:22.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:24.691857+08:00","text":"你一直插嘴，我怎麼講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:24.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:27.849000+08:00","text":"而且黃珊珊委員也要講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:28.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:29.291857+08:00","text":"我還沒講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:29.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:32.449000+08:00","text":"你要讓李坤城委員說嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:32.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:35.891857+08:00","text":"你要講可以，他沒有排順序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:36.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:46.477571+08:00","text":"王鴻薇王委員，順序他沒有排，他沒有排誰先講、誰後\n講、第二個、第三個，他都沒有講，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:46.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:49.349000+08:00","text":"他已經讓李坤城說了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:49.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:51.363286+08:00","text":"你也讓我講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:51.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:54.520429+08:00","text":"他要讓李坤城、黃珊珊啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:54.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:33:58.534714+08:00","text":"我已經被你干擾到不能講了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:33:58.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:01.691857+08:00","text":"你講 10分鐘了，還要怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:01.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:10.849000+08:00","text":"你剛才已經造成干擾了，我就是要跟主席講，你要尊重其他委員的基本發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:11.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:14.577571+08:00","text":"偉大的政治家已經講 10分鐘了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:14.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:16.877571+08:00","text":"這是基本的態度……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:17.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:20.034714+08:00","text":"偉大的政治家可以了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:20.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:22.620429+08:00","text":"讓一點給人家講啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:22.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:25.777571+08:00","text":"李坤城也要講，你一直講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:26.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:36.934714+08:00","text":"我剛剛就一直講，繼續聽我講，他要讓我講，我就繼續講，我剛剛就講為什麼賴士葆\n委員的版本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:37.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:42.949000+08:00","text":"你完全不尊重其他的委員，李坤城委員，你放棄喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:43.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:45.249000+08:00","text":"為什麼要我放棄？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:45.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:49.834714+08:00","text":"352\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:50.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:51.563286+08:00","text":"哪有放棄啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:51.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:53.863286+08:00","text":"你也要讓我講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:54.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:56.163286+08:00","text":"我為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:56.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:34:57.891857+08:00","text":"我還沒講完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:34:58.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:03.049000+08:00","text":"請尊重李坤城委員，後面還有黃珊珊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:03.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:05.063286+08:00","text":"我還沒講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:05.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:06.506143+08:00","text":"讓他講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:06.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:10.234714+08:00","text":"我整部所有的條文都有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:10.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:13.677571+08:00","text":"我對所有的條文都有意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:13.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:15.691857+08:00","text":"那我也要講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:15.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:17.706143+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:18.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:21.720429+08:00","text":"我對這條有意見，我也可以講啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:22.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:24.020429+08:00","text":"他不讓我們講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:24.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:27.177571+08:00","text":"哪有這樣子就強行通過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:27.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:30.049000+08:00","text":"你又要用粗暴的方式……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:30.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:33.206143+08:00","text":"其他的方式都不會了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:33.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:36.363286+08:00","text":"其他的方式都不會了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:36.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:41.520429+08:00","text":"如果你停止發言，我們請李坤城委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:41.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:45.820429+08:00","text":"為什麼停止發言，為什麼不讓我講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:46.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:49.834714+08:00","text":"你一直不讓我講，我什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:50.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:51.134714+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:51.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:54.006143+08:00","text":"你可以停止我發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:54.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:35:56.020429+08:00","text":"你可以停止嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:35:56.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:00.606143+08:00","text":"是，我請你停止發言，我現在已經停止……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:00.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:02.620429+08:00","text":"你可以停止嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:02.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:05.777571+08:00","text":"你可以停止，讓我發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:06.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:07.791857+08:00","text":"請你停止發言！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:08.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:12.377571+08:00","text":"353\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:12.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:16.106143+08:00","text":"你都沒有叫我發言，為什麼？是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:16.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:20.120429+08:00","text":"我請你停止發言，請李坤城發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:20.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:28.706143+08:00","text":"你一直沒有讓我發言，我剛剛一直沒有發言完，你就一直要叫我停止啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:29.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:30.006143+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:30.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:35.449000+08:00","text":"我講十幾分鐘又怎麼樣，十幾分鐘還很短啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:35.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:37.463286+08:00","text":"我還沒講完啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:37.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:38.906143+08:00","text":"不好意思！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:39.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:44.063286+08:00","text":"我們要尊重其他委員的意見，他們要講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:44.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:53.506143+08:00","text":"我之所以會花那麼多時間，就是因為你造成的，你就一直要唸條文而已，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:53.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:36:54.806143+08:00","text":"沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:36:55.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:01.106143+08:00","text":"第四條，國民黨的提案是刪除，那我們剛剛其他委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:01.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:04.549000+08:00","text":"主席，你要當鸚鵡也可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:04.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:09.134714+08:00","text":"你在這邊唸就好了，這還需要討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:09.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:10.863286+08:00","text":"這算討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:11.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:12.591857+08:00","text":"這\n算討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:12.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:13.891857+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:14.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:16.763286+08:00","text":"所以應該還是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:17.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:19.063286+08:00","text":"這樣就算討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:19.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:21.363286+08:00","text":"這樣就算討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:21.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:23.663286+08:00","text":"第三條是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:23.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:30.534714+08:00","text":"國民黨的提案本條刪除，第四條刪除，民眾黨也是刪除啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:30.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:33.691857+08:00","text":"我告訴你，這樣算討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:33.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:35.420429+08:00","text":"討論在哪裡……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:35.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:38.291857+08:00","text":"現在到底進行到哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:38.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:40.591857+08:00","text":"不是到第三條嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:40.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:44.320429+08:00","text":"第四條，等一下，黃珊珊請發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:44.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:46.334714+08:00","text":"我還沒講話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:46.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:49.206143+08:00","text":"我到現在都沒有講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:49.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:54.649000+08:00","text":"大家都不用講，大家都不用講，為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:54.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:56.663286+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:56.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:37:58.677571+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:37:58.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:02.977571+08:00","text":"我也是希望給李坤城委員發言，那……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:03.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:04.991857+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:05.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:07.006143+08:00","text":"為什麼不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:07.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:12.449000+08:00","text":"那你請把麥克風放下來，讓李坤城委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:12.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:16.749000+08:00","text":"我剛剛還沒講完，至少讓我講完啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:17.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:18.049000+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:18.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:22.920429+08:00","text":"你已經講了，你要尊重其他委員，李坤城……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:23.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:24.220429+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:24.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:28.806143+08:00","text":"就是因為你插我的嘴，我才不能講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:29.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:30.249000+08:00","text":"好，對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:30.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:34.834714+08:00","text":"請你坐下，讓李坤城委員發言，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:35.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:37.134714+08:00","text":"我為什麼要坐下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:37.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:40.006143+08:00","text":"就是你讓我站起來的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:40.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:47.734714+08:00","text":"我待會要坐下來，要不要坐，是我自己做決定，為什麼要你做決定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:48.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:50.320429+08:00","text":"你的自由我不干涉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:50.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:53.763286+08:00","text":"李坤城委員，你願意發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:54.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:57.777571+08:00","text":"我要坐、要站，為什麼要你做決定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:58.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:38:59.077571+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:38:59.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:00.377571+08:00","text":"都可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:00.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:02.677571+08:00","text":"好，第四條是刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:02.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:06.406143+08:00","text":"黃珊珊委員，你要表達意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:06.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:08.420429+08:00","text":"等一下，那我呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:08.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:13.577571+08:00","text":"你先表達意見好了，李坤城委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:13.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:18.163286+08:00","text":"354\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:18.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:22.177571+08:00","text":"你每次都跳過我，去找黃珊珊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:22.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:24.191857+08:00","text":"我要讓你講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:24.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:26.777571+08:00","text":"是郭國文在吵鬧喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:27.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:28.506143+08:00","text":"又再直拍了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:28.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:37.091857+08:00","text":"你要直拍，應該從第 1分鐘開始直拍，不要在現在直拍了，專心開會，\n好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:37.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:39.391857+08:00","text":"專心開會，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:39.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:41.691857+08:00","text":"專心開會，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:41.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:43.134714+08:00","text":"讓我講完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:43.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:52.006143+08:00","text":"為什麼連蔣萬安 3%的「金孫條款」，他都要拿掉，原因就是國民黨版本亂搞嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:52.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:53.734714+08:00","text":"草\n率修法嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:54.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:39:58.891857+08:00","text":"可以，下面有那一條我們來討論，有那一條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:39:59.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:04.620429+08:00","text":"你不用擔心，表示國民黨非常自由、民主，好\n不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:04.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:14.349000+08:00","text":"所以到現在為止，國民黨他們已經送出來，居然還有不同意見，你不覺得很荒謬嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:14.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:19.220429+08:00","text":"你們不會自我檢討一下，有這種法案嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:19.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:21.806143+08:00","text":"李坤城是不是要講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:22.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:23.820429+08:00","text":"他都不讓你講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:24.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:27.263286+08:00","text":"李坤城委員可以發言了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:27.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:28.563286+08:00","text":"第四條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:28.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:31.149000+08:00","text":"等他講完，我就講了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:31.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:33.734714+08:00","text":"等他講完，我就講了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:34.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:35.463286+08:00","text":"好，換你了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:35.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:39.191857+08:00","text":"李坤城委員請發言，3分鐘，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:39.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:42.920429+08:00","text":"3分鐘、3分鐘，下去是黃珊珊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:43.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:45.220429+08:00","text":"不要 3分鐘，這麼短！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:45.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:49.520429+08:00","text":"沒關係，事實上我沒有限制那麼多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:49.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:54.391857+08:00","text":"可以第二次、第三次發言，沒關係。好！反正……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:54.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:40:56.406143+08:00","text":"大家照規矩來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:40:56.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:07.277571+08:00","text":"好了，不要再打斷我了，我已經想好要怎麼講了，你們又一直中斷我，我已經忘了要\n怎麼講了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:07.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:11.006143+08:00","text":"第三條今天就保留，沒辦法了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:11.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:19.591857+08:00","text":"郭國文委員既然對伍麗華委員的這個條文有意見，我們就保\n留，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:19.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:21.034714+08:00","text":"不是、不是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:21.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:22.477571+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:22.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:27.063286+08:00","text":"為什麼我們今天會有這個朝野協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:27.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:33.363286+08:00","text":"當初你就是 3分鐘就送出去了嘛，你 3分鐘就送\n出去了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:33.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:37.949000+08:00","text":"你們在那之前禮拜一我們……好，你先講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:38.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:42.249000+08:00","text":"之前我們就只有程序發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:42.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:45.977571+08:00","text":"根本就沒有進入實質的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:46.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:51.134714+08:00","text":"程序跟實質講的內容幾乎都一樣啊，各位！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:51.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:41:58.577571+08:00","text":"你看，我講你又在耽誤我的時間，這是我的發言時間啊，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:41:58.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:01.734714+08:00","text":"可以我講完，你再\n發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:02.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:06.320429+08:00","text":"355\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:06.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:09.191857+08:00","text":"時間要回復到 3 分鐘啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:09.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:11.777571+08:00","text":"回復到 3分鐘，你不要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:12.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:14.077571+08:00","text":"這樣你乾脆不要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:14.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:15.520429+08:00","text":"好啦、好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:15.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:18.963286+08:00","text":"不是，因為今天是做協商啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:19.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:37.834714+08:00","text":"今天有人講中央總預算，我們用明年來看\n三兆一千多億，如果按照國民黨的版本，它是挖走了 6,612 億，還有計畫型補助有 2,410 億，挖\n走了這麼多，你說中央政府剩多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:38.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:56.134714+08:00","text":"中央政府剩下四千一百多億可以用而已，所以說昨天不管\n是我，或是郭國文委員在問主計長，如果國民黨的版本通過之後，那中央的補助該怎麼辦，是對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:56.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:42:58.434714+08:00","text":"會減少，減少一半。","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:42:58.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:05.020429+08:00","text":"我昨天是舉例體育預算經費大概有 40 億，是不是會減半？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:05.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:07.606143+08:00","text":"就按照這個邏輯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:07.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:12.477571+08:00","text":"因為你挖走了\n一半，我看這不只一半欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:12.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:15.634714+08:00","text":"這挖走大概三分之二欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:15.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:26.506143+08:00","text":"因為你還有計畫型補助、還有刪減的，你\n們挖了六千多億，總共挖走了八千多億、快九千億欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:26.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:36.806143+08:00","text":"所以挖走的不是只有一半，挖走了近三\n分之二，所以就問主計長補助會不會少一半啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:37.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:45.391857+08:00","text":"如果補助少一半的話，郭國文委員在問現在國\n光獎金是不是會少一半？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:45.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:43:49.691857+08:00","text":"補助少一半，國光獎金也少一半啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:43:49.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:00.277571+08:00","text":"少一半就是從 700 萬變成 350 萬\n，這是合乎邏輯的，為什麼講到這一點，國民黨就「氣怫怫」地說：沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:00.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:04.577571+08:00","text":"國光獎金不會減少\n，只會多不會少。","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:04.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:07.734714+08:00","text":"怎麼可能只會多不會少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:08.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:14.320429+08:00","text":"你從中央就挖走這麼多走了，怎麼可能只會多不會\n少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:14.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:44.334714+08:00","text":"所以我們現在只是要講，不是只有國光獎金，為什麼現在講國光獎金，國民黨會覺得很生\n氣，因為現在棒球熱，大家會覺得你為什麼要去剝奪球員的國光獎金，我剛剛看我們現在的少\n棒，我們少棒現在對韓國也領先，當這些小朋友回來，也應該可以拿到獎金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:44.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:54.634714+08:00","text":"所以不是只有國\n光獎金，還有很多的補助、很多本來中央要給地方的補助都會減少啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:54.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:44:56.363286+08:00","text":"都會減少啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:44:56.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:45:28.949000+08:00","text":"所以我看 0\n到 2 歲的育兒津貼也會減少，我們對於租金的補貼也會減少，更不用說還有很多各部會的補助\n，包含交通部、包含農業部、包含經濟部、包含衛福部、包含內政部，這麼多，本來中央對於\n地方的補助都會減少啊，因為中央沒有這些錢，所以各個部會減少的地方以後是誰要來出？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:45:29.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:45:30.963286+08:00","text":"以\n後誰要來出？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:45:31.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:45:33.549000+08:00","text":"中央沒有這些錢啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:45:33.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:02.134714+08:00","text":"像我的選區在三重，三重現在有要做捷運北環段，從三重到\n士林，最後到內湖，過去有前瞻，現在沒有前瞻了，這些錢編入公務預算裡面，請問一下現在\n中央政府也沒有這麼多錢可以來補助地方了，未來這些捷運、軌道、輕軌等等，這些錢是誰要\n來出？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:02.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:04.434714+08:00","text":"是地方要來出嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:04.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:09.591857+08:00","text":"過去是中央可以協調新北跟臺北，現在呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:09.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:15.320429+08:00","text":"現在是雙北自己去協調這\n個捷運要怎麼蓋嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:15.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:27.334714+08:00","text":"所以今天我們談到錢跟權，本來就要劃分，不要把責任推給內政部，內政部民政司能做什麼\n樣的決定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:27.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:30.491857+08:00","text":"它沒辦法做任何決定嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:30.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:46:42.506143+08:00","text":"我們剛剛就說地方制度法要修，一起來修、一起來談嘛，\n我的前提是，財劃法可不可以修、可不可以討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:46:42.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:07.091857+08:00","text":"都可以，都可以討論，也可以修，但是絕對\n不是 3 分鐘就出委員會，然後出委員會之後，大家到這邊，我看等一下大家有沒有共識，沒有\n共識，你大概等一下就會說我們就是送給院長協商，大概最後的結果就是這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"不是會減少？主計長他說","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:07.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:08.820429+08:00","text":"但是我剛剛","quality":0},{"speaker":"聽到委員突然講說","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:09.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:15.120429+08:00","text":"不知道如果挖走了六千多億，哪些施政會受到影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"聽到委員突然講說","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:15.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:28.277571+08:00","text":"所以我也要求各個部\n會，你們哪些受到影響的，你要跟所有的財政委員講……\n356\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:28.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:33.434714+08:00","text":"到時候要送過來，朝野協商前把它送過來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:33.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:43.734714+08:00","text":"因為我相信大家都有這個資料了，真的都會受到影響，那受到影響，未來出事了要怪\n誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:44.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:47:52.606143+08:00","text":"又怪民進黨、又怪中央政府，可是你沒有想到說地方已經拿走這麼多錢了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:47:52.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:11.477571+08:00","text":"我再問主計長，有超過 15 個縣市，如果我們給它這些補助款，會超過原來他們自己\n編的歲出預算，請問一下這些縣市他們有沒有想清楚突然多了這些錢要做什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:11.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:14.063286+08:00","text":"他們要用來做\n什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:14.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:16.363286+08:00","text":"你們沒有想到嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:16.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:20.949000+08:00","text":"就有一句廣告詞「阿姨，我不想努力了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:21.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:23.249000+08:00","text":"」就不用努力了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:23.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:26.691857+08:00","text":"縣市政\n府都不用努力了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:26.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:38.991857+08:00","text":"李坤城委員，你剛剛那個建議很好，就是哪些部分受到影響，主計，你們在送協商前要把資\n料也都送過來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:39.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:40.720429+08:00","text":"其實都有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:41.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:47.020429+08:00","text":"我剛剛問國光獎金影響多少嘛，你們要講嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:47.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:49.606143+08:00","text":"現在時間已經到了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:49.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:48:53.906143+08:00","text":"我還沒有講完啊、我還沒有講完啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:48:54.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:00.491857+08:00","text":"我尊重他的意見，還有民政司，內政部的資料趕快送來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:00.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:02.506143+08:00","text":"請黃珊珊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:02.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:07.949000+08:00","text":"這不是民政司啊，這不是只有民政司的問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:08.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:10.249000+08:00","text":"它沒有決定權啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:10.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:12.263286+08:00","text":"它沒有決定權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:12.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:16.277571+08:00","text":"內政部派沒有決定權的人來喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:16.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:18.863286+08:00","text":"這是造成的結果啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:19.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:21.163286+08:00","text":"後遺症都出來啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:21.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:23.463286+08:00","text":"沒有辦法處理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:23.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:29.477571+08:00","text":"你也知道說就是要部長層級來才有用啊，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:29.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:32.063286+08:00","text":"沒有，我講實在話啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:32.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:36.649000+08:00","text":"內政部就有來了，你就是不讓他講嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:36.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:40.377571+08:00","text":"就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:40.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:42.963286+08:00","text":"部長來，市長也來了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:43.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:44.691857+08:00","text":"請總統來喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:44.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:46.706143+08:00","text":"請黃珊珊委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:47.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:52.720429+08:00","text":"叫人家來又不讓人家講，現在又要叫人家來就來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:53.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:57.020429+08:00","text":"叫人家來就要來，你又不讓人家講！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:57.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:49:59.034714+08:00","text":"才 5分鐘而已喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:49:59.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:01.620429+08:00","text":"沒有啦，我講 3分鐘啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:01.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:05.920429+08:00","text":"我跟你講，你不要急著進入逐條啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:06.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:10.506143+08:00","text":"357\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:10.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:11.949000+08:00","text":"我尊重你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:12.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:14.534714+08:00","text":"黃珊珊委員，換你了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:14.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:17.691857+08:00","text":"好，黃珊珊講完我再來講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:17.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:28.849000+08:00","text":"其實我坐在這裡，我蠻想知道伍麗華委員提案的第三條，他的用意是什麼，其實我也\n蠻想知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:29.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:50:43.720429+08:00","text":"第二個，我還是要強調一下國民黨的版本目前算起來是六千多億，但是民眾黨的版\n本一直都是兩千多億，這個差異還是很大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:50:44.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:51:04.020429+08:00","text":"第三個就是剛剛兩位委員說的，其實我早就跟主計\n處要求了，請你拿出來可能會受影響的東西，但是他們每次都說的不一樣，而且相關的內容每\n一次都變成是在外部討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:51:04.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:51:41.177571+08:00","text":"我們真的很希望主計處你們真的列出會優先的部分，我也下了幾個\n決議在其他的凍結預算裡面，就是主計處要說清楚，如果這邊釋出，你會優先影響到的地方，\n這個影響的地方我想每個部會都要知道，而且我們在審的委員也想知道，所以我們在這邊爭執\n，反而是讓他們非常輕鬆，都不用回答我們的問題，也蠻奇怪的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:51:41.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:51:54.049000+08:00","text":"再來就是伍麗華委員的版本看起來好像也是對直轄市山地原住民區的幫助，所以我覺得是不\n是要聽一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:51:54.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:14.920429+08:00","text":"另外，就是剛剛講的，我不知道他們什麼時候才要送來，因為到院長協商、到什\n麼時間，我們已經要了將近半年的時間，所以麻煩主計總處，我覺得這個部分儘快，我們已經\n等不及了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:15.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:20.649000+08:00","text":"如果再不提供，我們就不等你行政院了，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:20.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:28.663286+08:00","text":"剛剛兩位委員講的我覺得都應該\n拿出來，到底體育部受影響多少……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:28.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:33.534714+08:00","text":"健保影響多少、社福單位受到影響多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:33.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:36.691857+08:00","text":"你們都要說清楚，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:36.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:41.849000+08:00","text":"而且還有，如果\n以民眾黨的版本影響多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:42.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:45.291857+08:00","text":"以國民黨的版本影響多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:45.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:55.020429+08:00","text":"大家就把它做好分析，分析清楚了，我\n想民進黨的委員也會願意理性的討論，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:55.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:52:59.034714+08:00","text":"尤其是這個第三條我很想知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:52:59.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:08.477571+08:00","text":"第三條我來說明一下，你們願不願意幫伍麗華委員說明或者我幫他說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:08.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:10.491857+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:10.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:18.506143+08:00","text":"其實伍麗華委員是有個別的單條修正，但是我們剛剛講到的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:18.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:21.663286+08:00","text":"你知道他提案的意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:21.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:25.391857+08:00","text":"我知道，所以我來幫他說一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:25.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:28.263286+08:00","text":"他的部分等他來再講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:28.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:33.134714+08:00","text":"我來說明一下，因為黃珊珊委員想知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:33.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:34.577571+08:00","text":"等他來講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:34.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:37.449000+08:00","text":"你們都不知道，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:37.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:42.320429+08:00","text":"你們不知道他為什麼提這一條，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:42.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:44.620429+08:00","text":"等他來講，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:44.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:49.206143+08:00","text":"我來講一下，伍麗華提這一條是因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:49.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:53.506143+08:00","text":"你這樣講也不一定是他的原意呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:53.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:53:57.806143+08:00","text":"因為法律就是這樣規定，他有寫在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:53:58.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:02.963286+08:00","text":"什麼叫法律就是這樣，法律我也看得懂啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:03.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:06.120429+08:00","text":"修正動議我也看得懂呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:06.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:12.420429+08:00","text":"不用這樣處理……\n358\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:12.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:19.291857+08:00","text":"因為我有全程都聽，你們都沒有在聽，我當召委我有在聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:19.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:20.591857+08:00","text":"陳委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:20.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:28.606143+08:00","text":"他是因為現在財政收支劃分法的那個主體，比如說縣市政府、鄉鎮……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:28.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:31.191857+08:00","text":"沒有，區啦、區啦、區啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:31.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:38.349000+08:00","text":"不是，現在的主體是縣市政府跟鄉鎮，那他希望區可以變成……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:38.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:46.934714+08:00","text":"區可以啦，我們怎麼會不知道，他就一直強調原住民區也要比照鄉鎮嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:47.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:49.520429+08:00","text":"原住民區、原住民區！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:49.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:54:54.963286+08:00","text":"原住民區也有這個地位，對，應該是這個關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:54:55.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:01.834714+08:00","text":"那個不是一個最大的問題，那個整個……不是要通過的問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:02.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:04.991857+08:00","text":"你們要保留他的條文嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:05.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:06.434714+08:00","text":"還是不要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:06.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:12.734714+08:00","text":"我現在沒有要通過、我沒有要處理個別條文的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:13.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:18.749000+08:00","text":"我們沒有意見，我對這一條沒意見，但你們要保留？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:19.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:20.191857+08:00","text":"我們剛剛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:20.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:21.920429+08:00","text":"不是啦，這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:22.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:25.934714+08:00","text":"我們想讓這一條過，你們不想嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:26.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:27.377571+08:00","text":"沒有……保留……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:27.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:31.677571+08:00","text":"你現在是要一條、一條這樣子？今天……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:31.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:35.691857+08:00","text":"這個沒有辦法這樣一條、一條講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:35.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:40.563286+08:00","text":"剛剛賴士葆委員說錢跟權要一起處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:40.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:43.720429+08:00","text":"不是，所以現在要整個嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:44.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:46.591857+08:00","text":"我也是想幫他通過啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:46.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:52.034714+08:00","text":"現在錢跟權都沒有辦法處理，你怎麼處理嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:52.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:55:58.906143+08:00","text":"不是，我想幫伍麗華委員這條通過，你們想不想幫他通過？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:55:59.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:11.491857+08:00","text":"我跟你講，所有的案子根本都沒有辦法處理，所有相關的條文都牽扯到錢跟權的問題\n，就沒有辦法處理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:11.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:18.077571+08:00","text":"你就想挾持伍麗華的條文來背書你國民黨的版本嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:18.377571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:20.663286+08:00","text":"沒有，我沒有這麼想。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:20.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:26.391857+08:00","text":"不是，我現在這一條才有道理嘛，原住民這一條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:26.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:34.691857+08:00","text":"不是這樣子嘛，所有的相關條文要一併處理，不是這樣的處理方式嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:34.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:39.277571+08:00","text":"我們就照李坤城委員的意見，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:39.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:42.434714+08:00","text":"我哪有，我的意見是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:42.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:49.591857+08:00","text":"你的意見是不要一條一條，就全部一起討論啊，我也可以啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:49.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:52.749000+08:00","text":"全部要大家討論啊，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:53.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:56:54.049000+08:00","text":"要，要，要！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:56:54.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:02.349000+08:00","text":"全部一起討論也可以，才不會說……因為我們第三條想讓它過，你們想嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:02.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:06.649000+08:00","text":"我們全部都有意見、全部都有意見！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:06.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:11.234714+08:00","text":"359\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:11.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:19.534714+08:00","text":"從你通過的程序，我就有意見，我們全部都有意見、我們全部都有意見！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:19.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:26.691857+08:00","text":"如果他都已經表明全部都有意見了，你全部都有意見，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:26.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:36.134714+08:00","text":"我全部都有意見，包括……的版本全部都有意見、全部都有意見，我們全部都有意見\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:36.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:38.149000+08:00","text":"全部都有意見！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:38.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:57:56.163286+08:00","text":"那現在這樣子，我們就不用逐條討論，我們就這樣子，那我們就讓大家暢所欲言、表達意見\n，表達一輪完以後，我們就保留送院會，因為他都有意見就沒辦法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:57:56.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:00.749000+08:00","text":"但是我要讓那個……剛剛\n還沒發言的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:01.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:09.334714+08:00","text":"不是嘛，你剛剛說錢跟權都沒有辦法處理，你現在處理這個法案幹什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:09.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:11.349000+08:00","text":"當然有意見\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:11.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:17.649000+08:00","text":"等一下，鄭正鈐委員有提出修正動議，你提一下好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:17.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:23.091857+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員有提一個修正動議，鄭正\n鈐委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:23.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:27.106143+08:00","text":"你全部都有意見，那就沒辦法了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:27.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:28.549000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:28.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:58:48.563286+08:00","text":"我在想說，因為剛才也聽到財政部長有特別回應一個部分，現在我們有八\n十多項的指標，目前只剩下污染、節能跟節流這部分還沒有達成共識，那分配的部分跟權重有\n關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-29T14:58:48.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:59:33.434714+08:00","text":"我在這邊針對第八條第三項提出一個新的修正動議，基本上整個邏輯就是，我們希望能夠把\n各地方的稅收貢獻度納入財劃法當中的一個考量，比照原本遺贈稅部分的處理方式，因為原本\n第八條第三項是針對遺贈稅部分的處理方式，那我在這邊提出了一個新的修正動議，就是把第\n三項把修改成「第一項第一款之所得稅，應以在直轄市、縣（市）徵起之收入百分之五給該直\n轄市、縣（市）。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-29T14:59:33.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T14:59:41.734714+08:00","text":"」這個邏輯就是要讓地方的稅收貢獻度能夠直接考慮在財劃法當中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-29T14:59:42.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:00:25.463286+08:00","text":"因為所\n得稅是它很大一部分，其實跟整個經濟行為有關，那經濟行為有很多的外部成本，包括交通的\n問題、空氣的問題、水污染問題、土壤的問題、廢棄物處理的問題，那這些外部成本一般都是\n由地方政府來負擔治理，那所得稅裡面其實要留一個部分給各地方，我覺得應該是要有合理的\n一個部分，所以我們就比照遺贈稅的部分，希望能夠保留百分之五給地方，以上說明，感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:00:25.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:00:30.620429+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員這一條是針對第八條的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:00:30.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:00:36.920429+08:00","text":"第十二條的部分國民黨團也有提案，我們也是保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:00:37.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:00:50.934714+08:00","text":"剛剛因為郭國文委員也表達了、民眾黨\n也有，那郭國文委員已經表達了要保留的意見，我們當然也沒有辦法達成共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:00:51.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:00:57.234714+08:00","text":"關於第十六條之一，李彥秀委員……\n來，沈伯洋委員請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:00:57.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:01:08.963286+08:00","text":"今天整個的關鍵其實就是第八條，但是我還是要講一下，剛剛召委其實就跟之前講的\n話一模一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:01:09.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:01:35.263286+08:00","text":"那時候我在程序發言的時候就已經有講過今天會被影響的單位應該來說明，你那\n時候說好，結果隔天就沒啦，他們也沒有發言，然後現在又說在協商的時候，再讓他們整理一\n次，沒有任何的意義，因為你等一下就要出委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:01:35.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:01:38.134714+08:00","text":"所以我覺得先不要把……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:01:38.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:01:41.006143+08:00","text":"對不起，已經出委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:01:41.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:01:45.591857+08:00","text":"360\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:01:45.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:02:06.463286+08:00","text":"就要出這個委員會協商，但現在這個狀況，我們為什麼一直講錢跟權，我講一個簡單\n的道理，按照國民黨的版本，現在如果是六千多億的話，你六千多億會影響到現在的哪些施政\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:02:06.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:02:23.906143+08:00","text":"剛剛黃委員有提到說應該整理，我先告訴大家我們辦公室直接看預算書也可以看得出來會影\n響到哪些，最大宗的就是國防經費，我在國防外交嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:02:24.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:02:35.063286+08:00","text":"國防外交不含人事費是兩千九百多億，\n你今天要從其他的雜項湊到 6,000，基本上就是做不到嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:02:35.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:02:46.791857+08:00","text":"譬如說少子化的對策 346，治安維護\n現在是 360，都是扣掉人事，你這些湊不到 6,000，所以你要動就會動到國防。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:02:47.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:03:10.806143+08:00","text":"那就回到剛剛為什麼要講權力的問題，因為今天譬如說國防就是中央在做，請問我們現在要\n把這個六千多億，還要給臺北市特別保障，那現在是不是臺北市要自己建一個魚叉飛彈，叫蔣\n萬安魚叉飛彈嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:03:11.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:03:19.106143+08:00","text":"那蔣萬安來做國防就好了，蔣萬安來守護我們這個國家就可以了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:03:19.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:03:41.977571+08:00","text":"所以，\n今天你在地方制度法，你今天不可能在財劃法就決定權力的分配，中央跟權力的分配是規定在\n憲法上面的，我們還沒修憲耶，還沒有修憲，你只能針對地方自治的特定的一些事項來做微調\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:03:42.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:03:57.134714+08:00","text":"之前一直到現在，地方盈餘是六百多億，你現在要給它 6,000 億，是十倍，剛剛郭國文委員有\n講過，那你現在給它這 6,000 億，他們要做什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:03:57.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:04:15.149000+08:00","text":"沒有方案耶，沒有方案的話，那就是像剛剛李\n坤城委員講到的，它就不想努力了嘛，因為坐在那邊就會有錢來，不需要提出計畫，就可以拿\n到相對應的金錢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:04:15.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:04:36.591857+08:00","text":"所以今天我們不要再講說主計處要整理哪些會被影響，我們直接看今年度的預算書，除非國\n民黨根本都不想審預算，就從頭到尾都不看預算書，當然不知道哪些預算會受到影響啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:04:36.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:04:55.749000+08:00","text":"我在\n國防外交，我今天去內政委員會，我去看陸委會的，我看也知道哪一些會被影響，你只要把法\n定預算扣除、把一般補助計畫補助扣除，剩下的就是會被影響的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:04:56.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:04:58.049000+08:00","text":"這個會很困難嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:04:58.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:05:17.491857+08:00","text":"接下來\n你只要看被影響的比例嘛，你的比例不管是用原來的，假設是將近二分之一來算，還是把剛剛\n一般性計畫性放進來算三分之二，你影響的百分比就在那邊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:05:17.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:05:22.934714+08:00","text":"所以為什麼會說今天 700 萬的\n獎金會直接變 350 萬？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:05:23.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:05:32.377571+08:00","text":"這不是亂推測的耶，這是按照國民黨版本的比例算出來，就是現在這一\n個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:05:32.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:05:43.534714+08:00","text":"所以我還是要再講一次，不要再說什麼這個沒有資料、那個沒有資料，資料全部都擺在這一\n邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:05:43.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:05:57.263286+08:00","text":"今天第八條把這一個 10%變成 25%，這個就是造成最大的禍源嘛，你為什麼會到六千多億\n，這個 10%變成 25%就是一個關鍵。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:05:57.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:17.563286+08:00","text":"所以拜託，這個都應該在委員會討論，你那時候都有答應\n，我那時候說國防部應該來說明，因為國防部受到的影響會最大，你說好，為什麼隔天來了以\n後，結果什麼都沒有討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:17.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:19.291857+08:00","text":"委員會如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:19.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:26.449000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員，你覺得 60%比較不妥當，那你覺得百分之幾妥當？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:26.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:29.034714+08:00","text":"維持現在的 10%，現在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:29.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:32.763286+08:00","text":"那你提案吧，你提個案維持 10%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:33.063286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:35.634714+08:00","text":"這就是你們的問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:35.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:53.363286+08:00","text":"你們提了一個有違憲之虞的法案，然後你問說我們違憲的版本在哪裡，你今天提了一\n個殺人法案，然後我說殺人不對，你問我說我殺人的法案在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:53.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:06:57.949000+08:00","text":"361\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:06:58.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:07.391857+08:00","text":"沒有，我沒有說誰違憲，你要提一個版本出來，像伍委員提了一個版本，我們支持……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:07.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:23.406143+08:00","text":"這是什麼道理啊，你自己提有問題的法案，然後你叫我們提一個有問題的當作對案，\n今天伍麗華委員的版本跟這個一點關係都沒有耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:23.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:26.849000+08:00","text":"他不是在搞這一個 6,000 億耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:27.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:34.291857+08:00","text":"他是把這一個主體多了直轄市、山地原民，把這一個\n放進去耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:34.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:37.734714+08:00","text":"沒錯，但也是會影響啊！所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:38.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:42.891857+08:00","text":"這一個不是在講水平跟垂直分配的問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:43.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:07:50.620429+08:00","text":"你不要自己提出這些違憲的版本，然後說我們違憲版本在哪裡……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:07:50.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:05.206143+08:00","text":"不要再用這種話術啦，說什麼以前賴總統也有提過類似的法案，他們提的法案不是像\n你這樣挖 6,000億，這根本就沒有發生嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:05.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:17.220429+08:00","text":"不要用這一個當作理由，要討論那就是討論第八條，我已經講了，第八條的不應該到\n25%，理由非常簡單……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:17.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:22.091857+08:00","text":"你可以提出你覺得可以的想法，你覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:22.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:30.963286+08:00","text":"不是覺得可不可以，是你憲法跟地方制度法沒有修，你把這一個 25%拉出來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:31.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:39.834714+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是因為沒有修憲法，所以財劃法這一條根本不能修，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:40.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:41.563286+08:00","text":"是這樣子嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:41.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:44.720429+08:00","text":"沒有啊，你的權力在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:45.020429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:47.591857+08:00","text":"你的意思是不能修嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:47.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:08:51.034714+08:00","text":"因為沒有修憲法就不能修……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:08:51.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:01.906143+08:00","text":"你今天如果修了 25%，你多出來的財源，請問你要給地方自治的事項，那個事項對\n應在哪裡嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:02.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:05.920429+08:00","text":"沒有在回答，是在詢問他的看法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:06.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:12.220429+08:00","text":"你沒有那個對應的事項啊，你對應的事項不存在啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:12.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:32.520429+08:00","text":"如果你有對應的事項，你可以作為修法理由的基礎嘛，你說我有這個某某某對應的事\n項，但我現在這個財源不夠，所以我根據這一個不夠，我現在要修財劃法，這樣就合理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:32.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:39.391857+08:00","text":"不\n然的話你可以看為什麼去年盈餘可以到六百多億啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:39.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:46.834714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，期待你提出更好的版本，期待沈伯洋提出更好的版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:47.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:09:57.706143+08:00","text":"這個沒有什麼更好的版本，你不要提出違法的版本，然後叫我們也要提出違法的版本\n，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:09:58.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:10:04.577571+08:00","text":"接著是李彥秀委員的修正動議，你要不要表達一下意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:10:04.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:10:06.877571+08:00","text":"謝謝，我儘量簡短。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:10:07.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:10:33.749000+08:00","text":"是這樣子，剛才沈伯洋委員講了幾件事情，當然我們也非常支持\n國防預算，但是就我從新聞媒體上看到的，過去國防預算都是連續性的預算，也會用特別預算\n362\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n去做編列，這是第一點我要表達的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:10:34.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:10:53.477571+08:00","text":"第二點，我不知道什麼叫做殺人法案，在立法院，其實每\n一個委員都是獨立的個體，我覺得大家彼此都不要去批評別人的法案，你也有提別的法案，我\n覺得不要互相批評。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:10:53.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:10:57.206143+08:00","text":"但是什麼是一個合理的法案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:10:57.506143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:11:13.506143+08:00","text":"我覺得就是透過朝野協商，透過我們最後協商的方式，大家儘\n量來溝通，今天所有的法案最後都會是用直播的方式，國人也都可以看得到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:11:13.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:11:45.234714+08:00","text":"第三，所有不管\n是做長照、做兒福，哪怕是做其他的項目，其實都是地方自治的範圍，地方自治只是規範基本\n的大原則，而且是滾動式的修正，譬如上次食安發生問題的時候，原來中央其實要求做很多事\n情，但後來中央也發現自己做不了，它也把很多的業務跟工作交給地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:11:45.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:12:13.534714+08:00","text":"所以我應該說，很多\n地方自治事項都只規範大原則、大方向，而且是滾動式的修正，至於未來中央跟地方有時候權\n責怎麼分配，當然如果權責分配多一點，那地方分配多一點，如果中央願意扛多一點，當然地\n方有時候大家就可以互相去做調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:12:13.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:12:48.691857+08:00","text":"回過頭來說，剩下最後 1 分半鐘，我想要提一下我今天的修正動議，過去其實就只有臺北市\n跟高雄市二都，88 年的時候修過一次財劃法，但是現在已經是六都的狀態，除了這一次在很多\n的原則性大家只討論人口跟面積之外，我覺得應該也要把所謂的營利事業稅部分、財務的貢獻\n度也應該納進來做考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:12:48.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:13:06.991857+08:00","text":"剛才鄭正鈐委員已經有提到，就是除了人口、面積之外，我希望未來\n財劃法在討論的時候也要談到財務的貢獻度，這是我提出來的第一點，在第十六條之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:13:07.291857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:13:48.149000+08:00","text":"第二\n點，過去在 88 年前，營業稅其實是地方稅，我覺得地方大家在拚財政，無論是從建設或很多層\n面，地方各縣市都在拚，我覺得營業稅部分其實也應該回歸到地方去做地方稅的處理，這樣子\n也讓各縣市政府長期在拚財政的同時也有一些些獎勵，我覺得大家才會想辦法把餅做大，各縣\n市都在拚營業、在拚業績、在拚經濟，我覺得也可以從這個方面來思考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:13:48.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:14:00.163286+08:00","text":"所以我希望是把營業\n稅全部回歸為地方，當然直轄市的部分可以按照 88年以前的分配方式去做進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:14:00.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:14:16.749000+08:00","text":"因此以上幾點就是，營業稅回歸地方，然後財務貢獻度我希望可以納進來去做原則性的考量\n，而不是只有從人口跟面積，加一個大原則進來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:14:17.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:14:47.049000+08:00","text":"當然未來一般性的補助、社福的部分，我覺\n得我們也可以用制度性的去做討論，而不是覺得這個縣市比較好就分配給它多一點，這是長期\n地方跟中央大家覺得不公平的地方，所以未來一般性的補助我認為也可以制度化的來做討論，\n我覺得會比較公平一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-11-29T15:14:47.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:14:53.920429+08:00","text":"以上三大項是我的修正動議，是我希望調整的方向，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:14:54.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:14:56.220429+08:00","text":"謝謝李彥秀委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:14:56.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:15:01.949000+08:00","text":"接著是賴士葆委員，再接著是伍麗華委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:15:02.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:15:15.677571+08:00","text":"李彥秀委員所提到的營業稅，鼓勵縣市政府大家也財政努力，這點我是非常贊\n成的，我們也希望大家能夠列入考慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:15:15.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:15:28.834714+08:00","text":"第二個，今天其實我們結論都已經有了，剛才郭國文委\n員非常地慷慨激昂，講一番話之後，其實就已經定調了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:15:29.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:15:51.420429+08:00","text":"所以以今天來講的話，今天不會有\n結論，因為我們要支持伍麗華委員的第三條條文，他也不要，所以今天不會有結論，今天等於\n是大家……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:15:51.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:15:53.434714+08:00","text":"郭國文不要嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:15:53.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:01.449000+08:00","text":"我們支持要讓這條過，他不要，他說他都有意見，他每一條都有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:01.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:06.034714+08:00","text":"363\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:06.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:09.191857+08:00","text":"我說支持你，他也不要啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:09.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:10.491857+08:00","text":"保留啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:10.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:14.506143+08:00","text":"保留就是有意見啊，這條會過嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:14.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:20.520429+08:00","text":"沒有，我們要支持第三條啊，但是你們就是一直在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:20.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:21.963286+08:00","text":"沒有，現在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:22.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:26.834714+08:00","text":"沒有，那是程序，因為你們程序有問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:27.134714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:43.706143+08:00","text":"來，各位偉大的政治家，今天我們是朝野協商，協商一般來講不會去表決，也不需要\n太激情的演出，大家就來看，大家能不能喬好，然後就往前走嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:44.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:16:58.006143+08:00","text":"剛才結論都已經定了，我們\n要支持第三條，你們說不要，因為程序問題等等，所以今天大家就繼續表達意見，那就這個樣\n子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:16:58.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:19.163286+08:00","text":"所以我要講的意見就是剛才沈委員……其實我一直覺得他是新秀，是民進黨的新秀，不分\n區還排第一名，不要這樣動不動給人家送帽子啦，委員們的法案都是法案，怎麼一下就違憲呢\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:19.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:30.320429+08:00","text":"說這個是殺人法案，不要用這樣的帽子，真的，我很看重你，而且我認為你是民進黨的明日\n之星。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:30.620429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:32.334714+08:00","text":"等你當總召啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:32.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:35.777571+08:00","text":"沒有，你不需要我們，真的……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:36.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:41.220429+08:00","text":"如果洪申翰都可以當勞動部長，我們黨團說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:41.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:42.663286+08:00","text":"沒關係啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:42.963286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:49.820429+08:00","text":"我們說洪申翰可以當勞動部長，沈伯洋就可以當國防部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:50.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:51.263286+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:51.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:17:53.849000+08:00","text":"對，沒關係，這個真的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:17:54.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:18:13.863286+08:00","text":"不要動不動就扣人家帽子說是違憲，每一個立委都在那裡辛辛苦苦寫東西，你對他的\n有意見，我們就改嘛，覺得六千多億太多，就改，我們這個已經改了 3,000 億，大家來討論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:18:14.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:18:29.591857+08:00","text":"不要一下就說這個是殺人法案、違憲法案，真的，這樣子沒有辦法討論下去，大家彼此尊重啦\n，大家都一樣大，不要說怎麼樣，大家一樣大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:18:29.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:18:40.177571+08:00","text":"我是覺得今天結論已經有了，結論就是沒有結\n論，所以大家去發揮，但不必太激情發揮啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:18:40.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:18:45.334714+08:00","text":"因為結論都有了嘛，就是說反正你們大家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:18:45.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:18:51.349000+08:00","text":"郭國文說每一條都有意見，所以每一條都會保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:18:51.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:18:57.934714+08:00","text":"他都有意見，所以結論我就講，郭國文講的我們要尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:18:58.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:19:03.949000+08:00","text":"他每一條都要保留，我們就尊重他，每一條都保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:19:04.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:19:05.963286+08:00","text":"對，我們尊重他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:19:06.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:19:10.549000+08:00","text":"364\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:19:10.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:19:22.277571+08:00","text":"所以今天後面是多說的啦，但是我要提醒行政部門，每一個委員提到的東西，你們就\n要去準備一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:19:22.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:19:37.149000+08:00","text":"剛才一直在講錢跟權，這裡面來講，我不認為會影響國防什麼兩千九百多億，這個怎\n麼樣算都沒有這個東西，不會有這個東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:19:37.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:00.877571+08:00","text":"還有國光獎金你隨便說說，人家跟你講，你就這樣\n子說什麼獎金會減一半，也不會有這回事啦，獎金那個東西很好「喬」，這個叫隨便說說，這\n些東西我是覺得不需要給大家戴帽子，真的，大家都一樣大，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:01.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:12.891857+08:00","text":"大家都是立委，沒有說\n誰比較大，大家都一樣大，不管你是選出來的，或者是不分區的，我們都尊重大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:13.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:25.191857+08:00","text":"今天的程\n序已經有結論了，結論就是郭國文委員講的，每一條都保留，我們尊重，就每一條都保留，好\n不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:25.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:28.634714+08:00","text":"其他就是多說的，這樣而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:28.934714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:30.649000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝賴委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:30.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:42.377571+08:00","text":"主計長，你不用擔心，國光獎金我們今年一定會把宣傳費好好的砍一砍，\n一定很夠發獎金，不用擔心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:42.677571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:44.391857+08:00","text":"來，伍麗華委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:44.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:52.120429+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:52.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:20:59.563286+08:00","text":"每一條都可以講，剛剛雖然講過了你才講，但是我們全部討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:20:59.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:21:09.291857+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：好，謝謝召委給我機會發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:21:09.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:21:31.591857+08:00","text":"我修的這一個條文，是財劃法的\n第三條第四款，我簡單說明一下，因為六都合併的時候，我們的這些鄉曾經一度失去公法人的\n地位，引起譁然，所以在大家的炮聲隆隆下，在 2014 年又再度修法回來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:21:31.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:21:45.891857+08:00","text":"但是那個時候修地制\n法第八十三條之七，結果造成了我們的自主財源變成稅課收入是零，這個對我們的原區影響很\n大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:21:46.191857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:21:50.477571+08:00","text":"像以那瑪夏來講，上次質詢我有講過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:21:50.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:08.491857+08:00","text":"我們算過它依賴中央的部分是高達 91%這麼高，其\n他的幾乎都 50、60 以上，這個部分困擾大家很多年，只能透過修法，所以這一次我們財劃法的\n第三條怎麼辦呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:08.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:26.506143+08:00","text":"把它補回去，把這個漏掉的，當年的疏漏，我們有中央、有直轄市、有縣市\n、有鄉、鎮、縣轄市，我們把它補回去第四款，直轄市山地原住民區，這樣就解決了，好不好\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:26.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:28.234714+08:00","text":"我們支持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:28.534714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:30.249000+08:00","text":"民眾黨支持嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:30.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:31.549000+08:00","text":"這一條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:31.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:35.277571+08:00","text":"不支持的是郭國文，是貴黨啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:35.577571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:45.577571+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：沒有，他應該是對程序有意見吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:45.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:22:51.591857+08:00","text":"還是現在你們李坤城委員可以代表黨團說一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:22:51.891857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:23:00.177571+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：這個我補充一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:23:00.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:23:03.620429+08:00","text":"他還沒講完，他是提案人啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:23:03.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:23:43.063286+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：因為我有請財政部在召開財劃法的時候，也要邀原民區的公所\n來，我報告一下，這是他們回給我的：新北市烏來區公所認同並大力支持；桃園市復興區公所\n認同支持；和平區公所、桃園區公所、那瑪夏區公所、茂林區公所，也就是影響到的 6 個原區\n，全部都認同、大力支持，所以拜託大家，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:23:43.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:11.934714+08:00","text":"是，我在主持的時候，我都有聽伍麗華委員充分發言，所以我們國民黨團，我也是勸說大家\n這一條是可以支持的，民眾黨應該也是支持，但是現在不支持是郭國文，是貴黨，所以你可能\n365\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n是要回去跟民進黨溝通一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:12.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:20.806143+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：他們應該只是程序……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:21.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:27.391857+08:00","text":"不是，伍麗華委員所修的是現在的這一條財劃法……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:27.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:31.977571+08:00","text":"我們支持這一條，還是我們就這一條……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:32.277571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:39.706143+08:00","text":"但你們要的是整個財劃法都修了，整個都大修了，那不一樣了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:40.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:46.577571+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，我們還是每一條都可以……大家有意見就保留嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:46.877571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:50.020429+08:00","text":"沒意見的我們就讓它過啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:50.320429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:53.177571+08:00","text":"第三條你們有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:53.477571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:24:58.620429+08:00","text":"不是，我的意思是說那完全就是不一樣的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:24:58.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:10.920429+08:00","text":"不是因為說他修了財劃法第三條我們同\n意，就等於是說後面的財劃法你們這種大修我們也要同意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:11.220429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:19.220429+08:00","text":"他是針對現行的財劃法認為有不\n公平的地方，講很清楚，他要來修嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:19.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:32.949000+08:00","text":"今天這個狀況是這樣子，我這一本有國民黨的，有六千\n多億，這邊還有民眾黨的兩千多億，這邊還有剛剛才拿過來的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:33.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:35.534714+08:00","text":"這是修正動議，對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:35.834714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:38.406143+08:00","text":"我先不管這修正動議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:38.706143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:44.420429+08:00","text":"一個兩千多億，一個六千多億，你是要\n怎麼去過啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:44.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:47.291857+08:00","text":"不是、不是，那就討論啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:47.591857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:54.163286+08:00","text":"不然針對第三條，如果你們也沒意見，我們就讓這一條過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:54.463286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:25:58.463286+08:00","text":"我看你就是想要一條一條這樣過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:25:58.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:26:03.620429+08:00","text":"沒有，有意見的就保留，沒意見的就讓它過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:26:03.920429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:26:08.777571+08:00","text":"一個兩千多億，一個六千多億，要怎麼過啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:26:09.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:26:21.363286+08:00","text":"所以我的意思就是說大家不管是國民黨、民眾黨或是民進黨，對於這個財劃法到底要\n怎麼去分，其實意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:26:21.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:26:23.091857+08:00","text":"聽我講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:26:23.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:26:37.963286+08:00","text":"就是意見其實差別還很大，連剛才離席的賴士葆委員，他說三千多億，\n所以今天不是說我要幾千億、兩千億、三千億、六千多億嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:26:38.263286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:26:59.120429+08:00","text":"今天就好好去討論一下，真的好\n好討論，因為各黨的歧異實在是太大了，沒辦法說我今天在這邊花兩個小時，我們就決定是要\n用兩千億的版本、三千億的版本或是六千億的版本啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:26:59.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:05.420429+08:00","text":"剛剛伍麗華委員這個提案，因為我們在審第三條嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:05.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:16.863286+08:00","text":"所以第三條我想問一下財政部跟\n主計處的意見，如果伍麗華委員這個條文過的話，有什麼影響？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:17.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:19.449000+08:00","text":"影響的狀況是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:19.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:21.749000+08:00","text":"我們總要\n知道嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:22.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:23.049000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:23.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:26.491857+08:00","text":"不然他講的也很有道理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳署長柏誠","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:26.791857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:51.363286+08:00","text":"剛剛伍委員講的的確是要先賦予它有一個可以分配的權力，但是因為同時水平分配的\n公式那邊，其實他們所有原民區的面積跟人口都算給直轄市了，所以這個部分就得再處理，不\n然的話單訂定這一條沒有用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:51.663286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:27:54.520429+08:00","text":"所以直轄市要另外給它？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳署長柏誠","start":"2024-11-29T15:27:54.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:00.820429+08:00","text":"對，那目前就是……\n366\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:01.120429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:05.120429+08:00","text":"它想要取得像鄉鎮一樣的地位吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳署長柏誠","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:05.420429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:09.420429+08:00","text":"目前就是直轄市已經另外給它了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:09.720429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:12.006143+08:00","text":"那你覺得怎麼樣呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:12.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:14.306143+08:00","text":"你們支不支持呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳署長柏誠","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:14.606143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:20.034714+08:00","text":"只是他替原民區覺得說那些原民區拿得不夠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:20.334714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:22.906143+08:00","text":"不是，你們支不支持呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:23.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:26.063286+08:00","text":"你們支不支持他的提案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳署長柏誠","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:26.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:27.791857+08:00","text":"因為這樣的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:28.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:33.806143+08:00","text":"你們覺得會影響多少，然後支不支持這樣的提案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:34.106143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:38.106143+08:00","text":"因為這樣子就會有重複的現象啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:38.406143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:40.691857+08:00","text":"所以你們是不支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:40.991857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:42.706143+08:00","text":"那也沒辦法啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:43.006143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:52.149000+08:00","text":"不是，不是說支不支持，有這種現象我們必須要告訴你們，就是這個部分這樣算\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:52.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:53.877571+08:00","text":"會影響多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:54.177571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:28:55.606143+08:00","text":"有算過了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:28:55.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:11.906143+08:00","text":"如果說照面積算，因為一般我們就會照面積、照人口，但是這個面積就已經算在直\n轄市裡面，現在你又另外再算一次，這樣本身就重複了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:12.206143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:31.063286+08:00","text":"不是，我們要的是數據，我們開會開這麼久都要你們提出數據，像民進黨委員也一直提說事\n權什麼的，我們一直要內政部提出什麼影響、該修什麼法，你們送過來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:31.363286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:34.220429+08:00","text":"內政部也一直不送\n過來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:34.520429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:40.520429+08:00","text":"委員，我在說事權的部分，事實上常常說的 75和 25的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:40.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:42.249000+08:00","text":"我們想知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:42.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:46.263286+08:00","text":"等一下，他想知道伍麗華這一條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:46.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:29:49.134714+08:00","text":"是不是我先說明一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:29:49.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:14.006143+08:00","text":"為什麼當初是 40 和 60 的時候，那 40 分出來裡面有臺灣省的部分是 11%，然後地\n方的部分是四點多，那現在臺灣省的部分業務進到中央來，但是現在你把它分出去，然後事權\n沒有回去，這個部分在中央來講執行就會有困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:14.306143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:23.734714+08:00","text":"主計長，我跟您說明一下……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:24.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:31.463286+08:00","text":"1 分鐘，我把它講完，我針對主計長說的這個，您剛剛說什麼 4,700 億嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:31.763286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:33.191857+08:00","text":"統籌款 4,700 嘛\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:33.491857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:47.777571+08:00","text":"差不多，你剛剛講本來是 4,043，明年統籌款可能會變 4,700，剛剛他報告講的，然後再加上\n補助款是 6,000 億，所以希望給地方是 1 兆 150 億嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:48.077571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:49.791857+08:00","text":"這剛您唸的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:50.091857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:51.520429+08:00","text":"就一兆多嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:51.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:30:56.677571+08:00","text":"事實上你們\n現在就已經有給一兆多了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:30:56.977571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:31:03.263286+08:00","text":"你的主計的表頭是已經扣掉什麼補助款，沒有影響啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-29T15:31:03.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:31:04.563286+08:00","text":"哪一個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:31:04.863286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:31:10.863286+08:00","text":"你那個表，有一個財政部……我是上網查的，裡頭就有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:31:11.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:31:19.734714+08:00","text":"所以事實上影響沒有你們所說的\n那麼大，那個表格裡頭就有了，我查給你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:31:20.034714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:31:25.749000+08:00","text":"367\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n伍麗華委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:31:26.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:31:54.334714+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我兩個意見，第一，我想說的是如果我們就先把文字修進來，\n因為對我來講，我什麼時候才等得到這個修法，我覺得這個當年的錯誤、錯漏，這個時候如果\n可以的話，請大家支持我們，把它修進來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:31:54.634714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:32:14.349000+08:00","text":"第二，其他要考慮的，我覺得方法很多，即便是用\n財劃法第三十八條之一，如果真的影響到這些所謂的六都，我覺得由中央專案補足，其實像高\n雄市政府也同意這樣的方法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:32:14.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:32:34.934714+08:00","text":"就是給你了以後，它再補……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：對，但是我覺得退一萬步，至少我覺得它只是還給它在法條中\n缺少的這個文字，你應該補回去啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:32:35.234714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:32:46.949000+08:00","text":"我覺得連這個把它補回去，現在在整個財劃法裡面，它完\n全沒有地位，它是公法人，可是卻沒有地位耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:32:47.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:32:48.391857+08:00","text":"這是錯誤！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:32:48.691857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:32:51.549000+08:00","text":"我們只是把它補正而已……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-29T15:32:51.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:00.134714+08:00","text":"就是恢復那個……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:00.434714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:03.863286+08:00","text":"你現在要說服的是民進黨團。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:04.163286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:11.306143+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:11.606143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:13.606143+08:00","text":"他們有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:13.906143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:16.477571+08:00","text":"還是民進黨團也支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:16.777571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:19.349000+08:00","text":"支持的話，我們這條就……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:19.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:22.506143+08:00","text":"我覺得整部就送協商啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:22.806143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:28.520429+08:00","text":"好，那整部就是保留，沒有辦法，我們這邊說支持啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:28.820429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:38.249000+08:00","text":"但是民進黨不支持就沒辦法了，那我\n們就全案保留送協商，還有那個修正動議啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:38.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:46.263286+08:00","text":"謝謝各位，今天會就到此結束，謝謝，全案保留送朝野韓院長協商啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-29T15:33:46.563286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-29T15:33:51.991857+08:00","text":"散會（15時 43 分）\n368\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}