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我們先請NCC跟蘇花部好 陳代主委 還有我們邱政次委員好市長好 主委好其實剛才 我想我們好幾位同事都提到這件事情 就是網路任性的事大家都是就事論事 這個當然我們要盡快去改善"},{"start":33.868,"end":58.932,"text":"但是你若想到我們高雄桃園掉下去那一輛車子它從道路坍塌到掉下去高深谷然後整家人就一輛車子載個五個人全部都掉下去但是你看後面的錄影帶後面錄影帶它爸爸"},{"start":61.105,"end":87.272,"text":"還不知道怎麼爬到上面去還到道路上去求救求救之後他又下去救他的妻子 孩子然後這五個人兩個死 三個失蹤就都不見了你想到他從山谷跑到 爬到道路上去被"},{"start":88.499,"end":112.33,"text":"求救然後被錄影帶遭到你去想像那個情景我想每個人都有帶電話啦如果當時他可以電話有通如果當時他可以直接打電話到派出所求救如果派出所接到這個求救就可以盡快去救他也許這五個人命還在"},{"start":119.349,"end":125.494,"text":"你去想到這個問題你會覺得很難過那到底我們能夠做什麼昨天我也到災區去那跟其邁市長我們也到災區去那看看災民的狀況然後我們也送物資去幫助他們"},{"start":143.356,"end":172.628,"text":"你可以想像就是說他們在山裡面在颱風暴雨的時候他們是多麼的無助所以我想這個事情是刻不容緩而不是在等待那當然剛才大家也提到了幾個可以解決的方案不管是衛星的備援不管是網路的漫遊等等的有很多的方案那我也看到我們的"},{"start":174.683,"end":194.227,"text":"蘇發部也做過那個7月10號剛做一個颱風的一個演練7月4號做演練7月6號颱風來了車子掉下去了人跑上來求救但是卻只能無語問昌天你們想一想其實這個真的是你想到那一家五口"},{"start":203.314,"end":223.053,"text":"生命全部都不見了你就會覺得說它不是一件事情它不是我們現在在談的一件事情它是攸關的人命而且不只這五個人有多少人在山上需要緊急的搶救那麼的無助通訊不通"},{"start":227.341,"end":253.626,"text":"其實我真的是講了實在是很難過啦不過就是說我再強調一下剛剛我聽有不知道是次長還是主委講說這個漫遊我們還要溝通漫遊有商業機制那當然是他的正常時間的機制但是如果是這種救災時刻你說有哪一家電信公司會反對嗎還需要那麼久嗎"},{"start":255.885,"end":257.107,"text":"那個中華電信請"},{"start":272.74,"end":296.56,"text":"有的議題技術上是可行如果政策要做我們會配合但是我必須有一些提醒就是說我舉一個例本來三條高速公路三個交流道如果萬一有兩個交流道壞掉現在把要上兩個交流道的車通通調到另外一個好的交流道要避免一個問題就是也把"},{"start":297.301,"end":307.103,"text":"好多交通道會塞爆結果就變成三條高速公路全部不同的一個風險啦好 這個風險可能要特別考慮高速公路三條三條就是因為有很多的車輛在山區 在颱風在生命垂危之刻沒那麼多人會把這條高速公路塞爆啦"},{"start":325.697,"end":340.652,"text":"我們是在救急救難救那些少數的真的是痛苦的災民所以那個時候我跟你講不會塞爆盡快 盡速 馬上處理啦我不相信這個有這麼困難我相信中華電信一定願意的嘛 對不對"},{"start":341.843,"end":365.873,"text":"金董事長願意嗎技術上可行 我們會來研究怎麼來通比較不具有風險性的通我們會協助這個相關單位來進行商業機制那個都是小事啦商業機制不是考慮的重點那個主委跟社長有聽到商業機制不是考慮的重點"},{"start":368.294,"end":376.618,"text":"所以這個東西其實漫遊的災死的應變漫遊就應該首先就進入了其他的當然衛星啦 你的那個行動車啦這個當然有很多的救援的機制 但是漫遊最快而且坦白講這個要謝謝中華電信事實上我們也知道在越郊區中華電信其實是部件的比較好啦"},{"start":398.493,"end":425.526,"text":"當然其他的電信公司我們可以要求的可以拜託的可以多設的這我們再去努力但是就是說中華電信的確在山區 北緣地區是通訊最好的我昨天上山其實就有兩次我自己帶來兩次電話一支是中華電信 一支是另外一支電信公司那我平常就是兩支會交錯用我用那個我用了另外一家電信公司就真的是斷訊了"},{"start":429.246,"end":450.172,"text":"那還好我有帶兩隻我開另外一次中華電線的用WIFI碼接上那你想在山中的需要急難救助的或者是那輛車我相信那輛車他平常都是在山下啦所以他不見得每個人都用中華電線的如果他有"},{"start":452.853,"end":467.315,"text":"手機其他家電信公司如果中華電信當時漫遊可以接通我相信他可能不用從山谷一直爬爬到山上馬路上去求救他就直接打個電話我們現在在山谷可不可以儘快來救我們"},{"start":468.089,"end":482.676,"text":"是跟我們報告目前這個國際規範打緊急的求救電話是不會漫遊就直接的通如果當地只有某A公司的訊號通B公司C公司都不通即便他任務是B公司C公司他一樣打110 119都會通"},{"start":485.31,"end":504.404,"text":"所以他 我不知道他那個狀況啦 我們也不是怪說這個因為沒有通 而他們死亡當然有很多 災死有很多不同的狀況 我們很難去估計啦但是我們多一個生機 就會多一個救命啦"},{"start":507.458,"end":530.94,"text":"也許他也不知道啊或者是他打那個拍手的電話那個狀況都很多啦打拍手的電話他不會通嘛所以我們想盡各種可能也就是說其實我在這邊最簡單的要求中華電信辛苦一點就在時間就可以馬上接通漫遊"},{"start":532.403,"end":546.693,"text":"然後我們NCC跟我們的書畫部這個就是我們數位人性可以即刻可以做的還要再研究那麼久嗎我們看那個報導通常會甚至於7月31才延伸風災區域啟動漫遊服務的可行性"},{"start":548.039,"end":564.188,"text":"跟我們報告是這樣子的我們的作用法電信法實際其實是禁止商業漫遊的那電信管理法之後有留一個空間藉階災防法29條所以但是都沒有操練過那我們會進行趕快開會來看這機制怎麼處理剛剛簡董有提到說其實還有這個"},{"start":569.051,"end":583.756,"text":"技術上一定沒問題但是要有一點點時間包括緊急電話跟接通還有通訊監察這一塊都不是說一天兩天可以整理好你知道我們現在山上還在下雨嗎是你知道我們高雄市桃園區現在山上還在下雨嗎還要那麼久嗎拜託你啦好技術上的問題"},{"start":594.218,"end":601.942,"text":"法規上的問題 我相信你們都比我更嚴重關於愛是人民的需求的問題 救命的問題 要快甚至你們今天說 我不知道可以怎樣 你們今天說說看 搞不好這個開完 後面就可以直接漫遊了 我不知道可不可以有可能我打電話的人就聯絡得到了 現在還有人在山上"},{"start":620.319,"end":646.926,"text":"好不好是不是盡快現在馬上可以把漫遊接通就趕快接通可以嗎我們盡快努力但是如果當地如果說有A公司訊號打緊急電話應該都不會是問題那一般的那個聯通號這個漫遊的部分對他不只是緊急電話嘛他在上面心慌"},{"start":648.305,"end":677.435,"text":"他沒有外面的資訊他家人在山下想跟他聯絡說到底這一個親人還在不在你知道那種心情嗎你就接通就當他可以聯絡啊我再跟你講一個那個八八風災那個時候我聽了真的很難過八八風災的時候小林村你知道嗎小林村裡面有一對父子在通電話他爸爸在山上"},{"start":678.715,"end":702.576,"text":"他孩子在山下他們通電話當中跟他跳進去爸爸說一句嗨啊人就不見了小林村上面那個叫做縣渡山縣渡山從1600公尺瞬間崩塌到剩下600公尺1000公尺的土石整個下去把整個小林村都淹沒他爸爸這樣跟他講電話"},{"start":704.312,"end":733.109,"text":"那只是在家裡你再去看事後那整片全部都變成一個平地整個所有的土石流下去淹沒成平地所有的房子全部都看不到了你知道那種狀況嗎所以我拜託你們就是說人機吉利及人力吉利啦這個事情我認為不是那麼困難盡快完成好不好好 我會努力拜託你們好不好"},{"start":734.366,"end":745.143,"text":"那個都可以嗎 中華電信也OK吧我相信中華電信 因為他只是 他一定願意啦只是說我們盡快把這個程序問題 技術問題把它處理好"},{"start":746.658,"end":772.029,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們會來協助NC但是我要特別提醒這個風險要經過驗證啦因為如果我剛才講的情況發生連那個好的也會當掉結果全區都沒有那個區就沒有所以這一部分要特別再仔細考慮一下你其實你這樣講我實在是有意見你這個考量我接受啊但是現在我講的喇嘛俠"},{"start":773.715,"end":782.08,"text":"桃園 這兩區最嚴重 這兩區上面都沒有多少人很多已經下來了 我們底下有收容所山上還有人沒有下來的你說像台南七股跟嘉義布袋在這個陣營的時候 其實人沒有那麼多你趕緊陣營這兩區才能通你不說我們高雄 你先給南馬車到桃園區先給我們兩區"},{"start":804.854,"end":821.989,"text":"那那個台南旗鼓跟嘉義布袋這兩個你先這樣就好我不是叫你全部都不是全台灣都漫遊啦就是說這個地方最緊急的地方你們可不可以我不知道你們的技術可不可以開放這個局部就可以先讓他漫遊可以成功的"},{"start":822.889,"end":850.548,"text":"對 所以我也要報告 這個真的要經過驗證我舉個例子啦 同樣在那個區 它中華電信是40%的服務量我們的設計會到120% 差不多是可以吃50%多現在另外兩家 假設我們另外兩家當了就變100%的人 都會從那個交流道上來那個交流道就會用塞 因為所有人只有那個地方能上我送給你聽好不好 因為我們藍麻社跟桃園"},{"start":853.211,"end":865.373,"text":"40%用中華電線的?對還有60%有可能用其他的?是這60%我會說現在很多收容已經下來了可能下來了一半對所以我假設存超過50%的人所以你跟齊東漫遊沒問題,真的沒問題啦是是是那個金董"},{"start":881.127,"end":907.515,"text":"趙偉這個建議是刻不容緩的事技巧性的問題私底下去跟他報告能開就開 因為救命比什麼都還好當然當然當然另外方向也可以 有一些其他的方向啦你針對這個要趕快去跟他報告盡快處理啦 我認為不會塞爆你放心啦很多人已經下山了啦還有少數人留在上面啦"},{"start":908.235,"end":929.824,"text":"最怕就是汙破偏紅蓮葉雨,人又在裡面,又坐著獨居老人或是故意的所以說最怕那種比較特殊的狀況其實沒那麼多,我幫你補正沒問題啦只要你速度快,這些篩報我認為坦白講我用我的客觀的了解現實的狀況我認為沒有問題,不會篩報啦盡快啦好不好"},{"start":934.465,"end":949.797,"text":"好 那我們希望趕快明天就會開會好明天就會開會其實我是希望你們回合趕快就開會了然後趕快處理了不要再等到明天了 好不好好 拜託真的是拜託你們好 謝謝喜智傑"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我們先請NCC跟數發部。"],["主席：請陳代主委還有闕政次。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：次長好、主委好。其實剛才我們好幾位同事都提到網路韌性的事，大家都是就事論事，當然我們要儘快去改善，但是想到我們高雄桃源掉下去的那一輛車子，因為道路坍塌掉下深谷，一輛車子載著整家人五個人，全部都掉下去，但是你看後面的錄影帶，那個爸爸不知道怎麼爬到路上去的，還到道路上去求救，求救之後，他又下去救他的妻子、孩子，然後這五個人二死、三失蹤，就都不見了。你想想看他從山谷爬到道路上求救，被攝影機照到，你去想像那個情景，我想每個人都有帶電話，如果當時他可以直接打電話到派出所求救，派出所接到求救電話就可以儘快去救他，也許這五個人還在，你去想想這個問題，你會覺得很難過。那到底我們能夠做什麼？昨天我也跟陳其邁市長到災區去看看災民的狀況，同時送物資去幫助他們，你可以想像他們在山裡面、在颱風暴雨的時候，他們是多麼的無助，所以我想這個事情是刻不容緩，而不是再等待。當然剛才大家也提到了幾個可以解決的方案，不管是衛星的備援、不管是網路的漫遊等等，有很多的方案，我也看到數發部在7月4號剛做過一個颱風的演練，結果7月6號颱風來了，車子掉下去了，人跑上來求救卻只能無語問蒼天，你們想一想，其實這真的是……你想到那一家五口全部都不見了，你就會覺得它不是一件事情，它不是我們現在在談的一件事情，它攸關人命，而且不只這五個人，有多少人在山上需要緊急搶救，卻那麼的無助，通訊不通。其實我講了實在是很難過，不過就是我再強調一下，剛剛我聽到不知道是次長還是主委說，漫遊還要溝通，漫遊有商業機制，當然是它正常時間的機制，但是如果是這種救災時刻，你說有哪一家電信公司會反對？還需要那麼久嗎？請中華電信說明。"],["簡董事長志誠：委員，漫遊的議題技術上是可行的，如果政策要做，我們會配合，但是我必須有一些提醒，我舉一個例子，本來三條高速公路、三個交流道，萬一有兩個交流道壞掉，現在把要上兩個交流道的車通通調到另外一個好的交流道，要避免一個問題，就是會把好的交流道塞爆，結果就變成三條高速公路全部不通的風險，這個風險可能要特別考慮。"],["許委員智傑：這個我告訴你怎麼解決，高速公路三條、三個交流道，是因為有很多的車輛，但是在山區、在颱風期間、在生命垂危之刻，沒那麼多人會把高速公路塞爆啦！我們是在救急、救難、救那些少數真的很痛苦的災民，那個時候我跟你講不會塞爆，請儘快馬上處理啦！我不相信這個有這麼困難，我相信中華電信一定願意的，對不對？簡董事長願意嗎？"],["簡董事長志誠：技術上可行，我們會來研究怎麼來通，比較不具有風險性的通。"],["許委員智傑：OK。"],["簡董事長志誠：我們會協助相關單位來進行。"],["許委員智傑：我想商業機制那個都是小事啦。"],["簡董事長志誠：對，商業機制不是考慮的重點。"],["許委員智傑：是的，主委跟次長都有聽到？商業機制不是考慮的重點，所以其實災時的應變，漫遊首先就應該進入了，其他的衛星、行動車，當然有很多的救援的機器，但是漫遊最快，而且坦白講這個要謝謝中華電信，事實上，我們也知道越是郊區，中華電信其實是布建得比較好的，當然其他電信公司，我們可以要求的、可以拜託的、可以多設的，我們再去努力，但是就是中華電信的確在山區、偏遠地區是通訊最好的，我昨天上山自己帶了2支電話，一支是中華電信，一支是另外一支電信公司，我平常2支會交錯用，我用另外一家電信公司，就真的斷訊了，還好我有帶2支，我開另外一支中華電線的用Wi-Fi把它接上。你想在山中需要急難救助的，或者是那一輛車，我相信那輛車，平常都是在山下，所以不見得每一個人都用中華電信，如果他有手機，其他家電信公司，如果中華電信當時漫遊可以接通，我相信他可能不用從山谷一直爬到山上馬路去求救，他就直接打個電話說：我們現在在山谷，可不可以儘快來救我們？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，跟委員報告，目前國際規範打緊急的求救電話是不用漫遊就直接通，如果當地只有某A公司的訊號通，B公司、C公司都不通，即便用戶是B公司、C公司，他打110、119一樣都會通。"],["許委員智傑：我不知道他那個狀況，我們也不是怪這個因為沒有通而他們死亡，當然災時有很多不同的狀況我們很難去估計，但是多一個生機就會多救一命。也許他也不知道，或者是他打派出所的電話，我不知道，那個狀況都很多，打派出所的電話又不會通嘛！所以我們想盡各種可能，其實我在這邊最簡單的要求，中華電信辛苦一點，在救災時間就可以馬上接通漫遊，然後NCC跟數發部，這個就是我們數位韌性即刻可以做的，還要再研究那麼久嗎？我看那個報導，通傳會甚至於7月31日才研商風災區域啟動漫遊服務的可行性。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，是這樣子的，我們的作用法，電信法其實是禁止商業漫遊的，那電信管理法有留一個空間，介接災防法第二十九條，但是都沒有操練過，我們近期會趕快開會來看這個機制怎麼處理。剛剛簡董提到，技術上一定沒問題，但是要有一點點時間，包括緊急電話的，剛剛接通的……還有通訊監察這一塊都不是一天、兩天可以做得到。"],["許委員智傑：你知道現在我們山上還在下雨嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["許委員智傑：你知道我們高雄市桃源區現在山上還在下雨嗎？還要那麼久嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那……"],["許委員智傑：拜託你們！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["許委員智傑：技術上的問題、法規上的問題，我相信你們都比我專業，我們要的是，人民需求的問題、救命的問題，要快！我不知道能不能這樣，甚至你們今天說一說以後，搞不好這個開完了後面就可以直接漫遊，我不知道可不可以？有可能山上的人就聯絡得到了。現在還有人在山上，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會努力。"],["許委員智傑：是不是儘快？現在馬上可以把漫遊接通就趕快接通，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們儘快努力，但是當地，如果有A公司的訊號，打緊急電話應該都不會是問題，那一般的聯通，這個漫遊的部分，我們……"],["許委員智傑：它不只是緊急電話，他在上面心慌、他沒有外面的資訊，他家人在山下想跟他聯絡，想說到底這個親人還在不在，你知道那種心情嗎？你就接通，就讓他可以聯絡啊！","我再跟你講一個，八八風災那個時候，我聽了真的很難過，八八風災的時候，小林村，你知道嗎？小林村裡面有一對父子在通電話，他爸爸在山上，他孩子在山下，他們通電話當中，只有聽到爸爸說一句：糟了！人就不見了。小林村上面那個叫做獻肚山，獻肚山從1,600公尺瞬間崩塌到剩下600公尺，1,000公尺的土石整個下去把整個小林村都淹了。他爸爸在跟他講電話，他只是在家裡，你事後再去看，那整片全部都變成一個平地，整個土石流下去，淹沒成平地，所有的房子都看不到了，你知道那種狀況嗎？所以我拜託你們，人飢己飢，人溺己溺，這個事情我認為不是那麼困難，儘快完成，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們會努力。"],["許委員智傑：拜託你們，好不好？都可以嗎？中華電信也OK吧！好，對不對？我相信，中華電信他一定願意啦！只是我們儘快把這個程序問題、技術問題處理好。"],["簡董事長志誠：是，跟委員報告，我們會來協助分析，但是我要再特別提醒這個風險要經過驗證，因為如果我剛才講的情況發生，連那個好的也會當掉，結果全區都沒有、那個區就沒有，所以這一部分要特別再仔細考慮一下。"],["許委員智傑：其實你這樣講，我實在是有意見，你這個考量我接受，但是現在我說的那瑪夏、桃源這兩區最嚴重，這兩區上面沒住多少人，很多已經下來了，我們底下有收容所，但山上還有人沒有下來。你說像臺南七股跟嘉義布袋，就是緊急的時候其實人沒那麼多，你趕快讓緊急的這兩區先通，比如我們高雄，你先讓那瑪夏跟桃源兩區漫遊，臺南七股跟嘉義布袋這兩區你先這樣就好。我不是叫你全部、不是全臺灣都漫遊，就是最緊急的這個地方，我不知道你們的技術可不可以開放局部、先讓它漫遊可以成功？"],["簡董事長志誠：對，所以委員，我跟你報告，這個真的要經過驗證。我舉個例，一樣在那個區，在中華電信是40%的服務量，我們的設計會到120%，差不多是可以吃五十%多。現在另外兩家，假設另外兩家當了，就變100%的人都會從那個交流道上來，那個交流道就會壅塞，因為所有人只有那個地方能上網。"],["許委員智傑：我算給你聽，好嗎？以那瑪夏跟桃源，40%用中華電信的，對吧？"],["簡董事長志誠：對。"],["許委員智傑：還有60%可能用其他的。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["許委員智傑：這60%，我跟你說，現在很多收容的人已經下來了，可能下來的有一半。"],["簡董事長志誠：對。"],["許委員智傑：我假設，剩下差不多50%的人。"],["簡董事長志誠：所以跟委員報告，要算到……"],["許委員智傑：你給它啟動漫遊沒問題，真的沒問題啦！"],["簡董事長志誠：是、是、是，好。"],["主席：簡董，召委這個建議是刻不容緩的事。"],["許委員智傑：對，真的沒問題啦！"],["主席：技巧性的問題，私底下去跟他報告。"],["簡董事長志誠：了解。"],["主席：能開就開。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["主席：因為救命比什麼都還要好……法令……"],["簡董事長志誠：當然、當然，而另外的方式也可以……"],["主席：好不好……"],["簡董事長志誠：有一些其他的方式。"],["主席：針對這個你要趕快去跟他報告。"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：儘快處理。"],["主席：好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：我認為不會塞爆，你放心。"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：很多人已經下山了，還有少數人留在上面。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["許委員智傑：最怕的就是屋破偏逢連夜雨，人還在裡面，有一個獨居老人還是幾個或怎麼樣，最怕那種比較特殊的狀況。其實沒那麼多，我跟你保證沒問題，只要你速度快，這些塞爆，坦白講，就我客觀了解現實的狀況，我認為沒有問題，不會塞爆啦！"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：儘快，好不好？那我們希望趕快，趕快看到成果。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們明天就會開會。"],["許委員智傑：明天就會開會喔？其實我是希望你們會後趕快就開會，然後趕快處理，不要再等到明天了，好不好？好，拜託，真的是拜託你們。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑召委。","現在請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}