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6為考試院及公務人員保障及培訓委員會分別含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送預算凍結書面報告請查詔案本日會議委員黃國昌等15人提出質詢委員謝龍介提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二第1案至第4案均令定期繼續審查三第5案及第6案均准於凍支提報院會四委員質詢時要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":1940.294,"end":1960.443,"text":"無審查會委員針對本日議審所列討論事項第1案之第4案之預算提案請於12月3日星期二中午12時前送交本會預時不予受理。宣讀完畢因為人數還不足所以我們待會再確定先請坐"},{"start":1967.489,"end":1992.338,"text":"請問上次的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有好那議事錄確定那我們現在接著介紹到場的委員首先是鍾昭偉陳俊宇委員好那我們接著介紹列席官員立法院秘書長周秘書長"},{"start":1993.942,"end":2007.974,"text":"副秘書長、張副秘書長、其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程排定"},{"start":2009.299,"end":2026.975,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分本日僅進行報告及詢答另外針對預算相關提案請於12月10日中午12時前提出預時不予受理也特別提醒大家"},{"start":2030.332,"end":2048.746,"text":"並請機關於提案處理前利用時間先與提案委員進行溝通協調以利後續審查,特此在座說明現在進行機關報告,發言時間5分鐘我們麻煩請立法院秘書長周萬來秘書長報告秘書長因為身體因素與口頭報告完畢之後由副秘書長代為備詢"},{"start":2071.049,"end":2096.841,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家好。萬難獲邀列席本院司法及法制委員會報告立法院主管114年度預算案編列情形自感榮幸並感謝各位委員與各項施政及經費上給予指導與支持以下請就本院113年度預視績效及預算執行情形114年"},{"start":2099.242,"end":2121.276,"text":"預定工作項目及114年度預算案編列重點分別二要報告如此一113年度預視績效及預算執行情形依依視績效因應政府施政運作需要本院配合完成各相關議案之立法程序113年節制至"},{"start":2123.68,"end":2140.293,"text":"第11屆第1會期指．召開院會二三次通過法律案40案、條約案3案、復議案2案、其他議案10案、合計55案．預算執行情形依稅率部分．113年度稅率預算數10713000元截至11月底"},{"start":2144.978,"end":2156.686,"text":"累計分配數0457000元累計贖收數136933000元執行率130.94%稅收部分113年度稅收共區分一般行政等9項業務計劃科目配合相關運作需要積累預算3647133000元截止10月底值累計分配數"},{"start":2176.379,"end":2184.246,"text":"3524000元累計支出數29億97628000元預算執行率92.13%執行情形正常二、114年度預定工作項目根據建立優質立法運證環境空間強化議事行政與服務功能有效支援委員議事運證"},{"start":2204.248,"end":2219.678,"text":"並根據與展現國會運作風貌以扶民眾期待與社會觀感為本院一四年度各項行政工作重點方向其主要項目包括一聽取行政院長報告施政方針及施政計畫"},{"start":2221.119,"end":2235.659,"text":"並提出施政質詢意見令審議法立案預算案及國家其他重要事項以提升法制建設報委員會議院會交互審查之議案及聯名請願案完成立法審議程序之審查作業後"},{"start":2237.762,"end":2262.076,"text":"提報院會三更續辦理委員住宿會館整修工程改善住宿會館老舊問題打造委員健康住宿環境提升住宿品質是提供有關立法政策法律案及決算案等研究分析評估諮詢等事項供委員審查之參考並持續充實國會圖書與資訊相關資料"},{"start":2266.579,"end":2269.482,"text":"建前委員問贈機能5."},{"start":2269.482,"end":2274.406,"text":"辦理員工協助方案以促進同仁身心健康建個友善職場環境6."},{"start":2274.406,"end":2276.809,"text":"積極推展國會外交參與重要國際相關活動並擴大與國際智庫等之交流與合作以爭取"},{"start":2286.057,"end":2300.563,"text":"國際友誼提升國際地位及加強議政史料收集與展示作業完善展場設施優化民主政治史料價值與典藏機制把辦理立法周邊環境空間"},{"start":2301.843,"end":2315.401,"text":"安全用化工程以提升院區全面性維安措施並確保人員安全就汰換委員公務用89連座小客車二輛以改善委員坐車安全提升服務較嚴"},{"start":2317.663,"end":2339.735,"text":"10更續辦理各項資訊基礎建設各類資源應用系統及資訊安全建設等相關事項以提升資訊服務品質強化國會資安防務作業11更續裁判異常三樓協商室等社員基礎數位印刷組等設備以強化會議錄音錄影效能及提升議事文件印刷品質"},{"start":2342.036,"end":2356.471,"text":"114年度預算編列重點編院114年度預算案更系編列委員14問証各項行政資源及資訊服務與設備維護、太購等基本需求經費其內容如下依稅率預算部分110年度會議稅率"},{"start":2358.573,"end":2361.134,"text":"預算編列10449000元較113年度檢列264000元檢入2.46%預估收入來源包括廠商違約支賠償收入中華電信台銀郵局"},{"start":2373.001,"end":2398.438,"text":"各電信公司、基地台委員、研究大樓、咖啡廳、 抗原餐廳、立法院、護舍、托運中心、務務會館及民主義正園區停車場等使用、委員黃色及土地資助金與權益金收入、收社會救物品等收入、委員團體保險機位分紅、民主義正園區會議室及公共場所出借場地使用收入、太陽光內設備發電回饋金及"},{"start":2400.379,"end":2414.369,"text":"借用宿舍員工注資薪資課為繳課數等雜項收入二稅數計算部會114年度稅數預算即編列一般行政委員問政業務等9項業務計劃經費共37億6,00312萬6千元較13年度增內11,319萬3千元增幅3.1%主要是經增內員工委員當會助理待遇含加班費調整4%等"},{"start":2430.473,"end":2446.478,"text":"聯視經費及新增國際事務處推動國會交流相關經費等以下請去問委員問政專項經費意識行政資源經費及一般建築及設備經費等三大經費項目二要說明如下一委員問政專項經費本項即編列15000"},{"start":2451.86,"end":2457.543,"text":"15億534萬占40.03%．包括委員稅務及公衛．公衛助理．國衛交流事務委員會館．問政相關內容及黨團補助等六項工作計畫．軍委委員問政議事及選民服務等所需經費．一是行政支援經費本項次級別內20億4千"},{"start":2476.812,"end":2496.928,"text":"四百七十萬一千元占百分之五十四點三八包括一般行政意識業務立法諮詢業務國會圖書業務公報業務及一般及第一一倍金等六項工作計畫主要為本院職工聯員維持會及各項行政資源作業等所需經費三一般建築及設備經費本項是基本內二億"},{"start":2498.669,"end":2514.834,"text":"一千零萬十八萬五千元將佔百分之五點五九包括營建工程交通及運輸設備及其他設備等三項工作計畫主要系辦理立法院委員住宿會館整修工程立法院周邊環境空間安全優化工程太外委員公務"},{"start":2515.834,"end":2523.477,"text":"又撤了台灣一式轉播網際網路多媒體、水險視訊系統等資訊、軟硬體設備台灣異常三樓、協商室等攝影機組及數位"},{"start":2529.977,"end":2557.948,"text":"一發機等資本支出經費．以以上本院114年度稅收預算案之編列均系為建立優質立法問政環境提升委員問政與服務效能及有效推動本院各項任務所需。善請各位委員臨品一貫愛護支出中鼎力支持進行指教並感謝主席及各位委員提亮報告後由副秘書長代為備詢再度感謝謝謝"},{"start":2561.244,"end":2585.175,"text":"謝謝秘書長接官報告發言完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請發言登記第一位陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":2600.629,"end":2606.863,"text":"好主席我們周秘書長那張副秘書長那我想有請張副秘書長副秘書長"},{"start":2614.272,"end":2639.553,"text":"副秘書長早今天是要審議我們立法院的預算那我還是想就一些議題來請教副秘書長那近幾年因為公部門的這個霸凌事件引發社會各界對公務員身心健康的一個關注而近幾年由人事總署所推動的員工協助方案也是政府這個重要的政策之一希望能夠透過工作面生活面健康面的協助來減緩壓力所帶來的問題"},{"start":2642.655,"end":2663.561,"text":"立法院作為中央最高的民意機構更應該要以身作則妥善的照顧工作夥伴在我們剛剛秘書長的報告當中也提到立法院在114年度工作重點項目中也包括辦理員工協助方案以及促進同仁身心健康並且能夠建構友善職場的環境"},{"start":2664.921,"end":2684.198,"text":"那立法院從113年也就是今年開始在和廠商合作辦理員工協助的這個方案實際所提供的這個服務面向以及使用的人次事務缺乏資料的參考那是不是請教我們副秘書長員工協助方案在今年具體使用的這個情形"},{"start":2686.616,"end":2710.923,"text":"這個違和謝謝委員的關心首先我就委員所詢問的這個員工協助方案的辦理情形這個部分來先表達一下目前的做法第一個我們一個員工協助方案是113年的時候他就委託了這個語聯管理顧問有限公司來辦理"},{"start":2712.063,"end":2738.081,"text":"那細部的部分等一下人事處長可以再做補充那這是第一個那另外我們也開設了精神科的門診這由本院的醫務室每週一上午來開設精神科門診由臺大醫院的精神科醫師來助診提供本院同仁如果有需求的話可以來做醫療的服務那第三個我們還有一個轉介機制如果有需要的話"},{"start":2738.541,"end":2738.821,"text":"：審查委員會議"},{"start":2754.582,"end":2784.582,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2784.722,"end":2785.983,"text":"請證書處長來回答"},{"start":2797.682,"end":2797.842,"text":"我剛剛問的"},{"start":2825.706,"end":2828.847,"text":"是不是可以透過這個問卷調查來掌握員工實際的需求有沒有可能"},{"start":2839.432,"end":2839.452,"text":"問卷"},{"start":2869.612,"end":2874.514,"text":"在明年度立法院的這個預算當中已經辦理員工協助方案列入工作的這個計畫相較在上年度這個同項目的這個預算編列從帳面上來看我們僅增加了122000元"},{"start":2890.379,"end":2915.852,"text":"如果將多出來的這個部分作為員工協助方案的這個預算其實也不算太充裕那尤其在立法院的這個預算額有553位資源若將上千名的這個公費助理也納入的話並以市場行情諮商費用來估算能夠使用的這個人次恐怕還是相當的有限那我還是再就叫我們副秘書長如果要擴大員工的這個協助方案會不會有資源不足的這個疑慮"},{"start":2917.372,"end":2944.133,"text":"謝謝委員這個部分其實在我們在這個評估明年的這個委託案的時候其實也有去考慮到那我也請人事處把這個去年的一個執行清新提供一個資料給我據我的了解那個求助的人數其實基本上並沒有那麼多那我們是用一個類似同胞的方式如果說有需要的同仁的話就去那邊來請求協助那目前為止"},{"start":2945.794,"end":2949.858,"text":"除了一般的個案之外,我們各部門當中可能會遇到危機個案或是非自願的個案我們的人事單位應該依據機關的實際情況來妥善規劃標準作業的程序"},{"start":2969.798,"end":2984.43,"text":"那但在目前立法院似乎還缺乏相關的這種預防措施或是這個緊急事件的處理機制我想再就叫我們副秘書長是否也應該完善危機或是非自願個案的這種預防和處理的流程"},{"start":2985.835,"end":3007.247,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分在上個禮拜我也就這個部分因為有一些新聞事件媒體這些公開我們也積極來就這個部分來做一些相關的一個預防或者規劃總務處的部分也召開了一些就職場霸凌的部分的防治來做一些統整"},{"start":3008.007,"end":3023.257,"text":"那我特別麻煩那個我們主辦的局處就人事處在印一些我們的那個貼紙就是那個宣導的貼紙目前我們大家可以看到目前有的是那個性騷擾的那個貼紙房子的貼紙"},{"start":3023.677,"end":3042.125,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":3042.746,"end":3055.563,"text":"員工協助方案應該作為防護網的建制,減少員工受到各種壓力的影響,落實友善職場的環境建構,讓我們的工作同仁都能夠受到關懷和照顧"},{"start":3057.806,"end":3074.285,"text":"當有這個職場霸凌的事件發生的時候需要更完善的處理機制來即使因應那近期因為許多這個政府機關傳出這種案例社會大眾也聚焦於公部門這個霸凌事件那立法院去年也曾經"},{"start":3075.871,"end":3089.243,"text":"有過職員公開陳請表示受到長官言語的霸凌我想再請教副部長在您上任的這期間有沒有接到員工的霸凌的申訴目前沒有"},{"start":3091.837,"end":3114.379,"text":"當然能夠不發生霸凌事件是我們最理想的一個目標也需要完善的處理流程院內工作同仁既有適用公務員法令的職員也有勞工身份的公費助理因為身份別的不同遭遇到霸凌事件的時候法規和申訴流程恐怕也有差異"},{"start":3115.58,"end":3137.445,"text":"尤其是助理身份更特殊是應該以發薪水的立法院還是僱主委員為主現行的立法院防霸凌的處理作業要點中也僅將員工區分不同受理的單位我想再請教我們副局長若我們這個院內的職員和公費助理遭受到霸凌的時候分別應該要向誰來申訴"},{"start":3140.834,"end":3170.134,"text":"目前我先大概簡單回答一下,如果等不夠的話民生書館再做補充目前的申訴案件我們基本上是會受理的當然剛剛委員提到了不同的身分別的時候是不是有不同的程序我想這個部分的確是有這樣的一個狀況目前正在檢討說我們是不是把我們的那個申訴處理作業要點能夠把它擴大擴及到所有的我們在我們立法院這個場域裡面工作的所有的人員"},{"start":3175.6,"end":3183.609,"text":"有一個問題我想請教我們的這個當事人如果申訴的時候能不能受到一個比較完善的一個保護"},{"start":3186.172,"end":3214.411,"text":"沒有問題吧?沒有問題沒有問題那職場霸凌的這個案件當中時常是這個首長或是主管藉著不同等的這個權力來霸凌員工那在立法院當中權力位階最高的可能就是113位的這個立法委員那如果今天發生在這個立委霸凌職員或是助理甚至是反過來受到這個職場霸凌造成委員就是案件的這個當事人的時候立法院是否能夠介入來處理或調查"},{"start":3217.867,"end":3235.61,"text":"基本上這個部分我們請那個處長來這個應該是副秘書長你要回答怎麼會請處長我來回答這個部分其實立法委員他有一個特別的身份那當然在我們的國會裡頭他有一個特權那當然這個特權不包含霸凌的這個部分"},{"start":3236.271,"end":3264.036,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3264.316,"end":3284.968,"text":"委員應該要有領導職能的平和的機制在現行的公務人員升遷法當中徵定若是主管職務應該平和其領導能力我想請教副部長多年來作為機關的重要主管是否也認同法治局提出的這種建議"},{"start":3286.289,"end":3313.639,"text":"就這個部分我先給答案好了基本上我是認同的認同的原因是在於說其實所有在機關服務的同仁應該都是一致的除了業務有那個職務的高低以外就於人的本質的部分他應該受到這個基本的尊重這個應該是大家的那個普世價值所以說我經常在新進同仁報到以後我會找時間去看一下新進同仁他的對於我們"},{"start":3314.279,"end":3314.319,"text":"多關心齁"},{"start":3338.882,"end":3338.902,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3369.066,"end":3371.499,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請鍾瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":3381.152,"end":3401.619,"text":"謝謝主席請我們立法院副秘書長副秘書長請問一下副秘書長他身體不變我們剛剛有選他血氧降到很低問他比較好玩可是因為身體因素我們一定是第一方沒問題當然身體最重要來副秘書長副秘書長是多大你也不知道備詢這個準備這樣不行我來請教幾個問題就我們立法院"},{"start":3411.087,"end":3437.746,"text":"這個簽件或者擴建這樣的一個問題我記得我們本來是26個地址選址到最後變成6個那當然現在的一個狀況我看這整個會期這樣子似乎草野動蕩不安你們可能要花更多的心思在這個議事上但是也快一年的時間對於整個立法院的一個"},{"start":3440.446,"end":3444.959,"text":"擴建委員會或者尋找新的一個場域裡面你們現在這個計畫有沒有在進行?"},{"start":3448.609,"end":3469.508,"text":"好謝謝委員關心那就是剛剛委員所提到的我們之前有立法院未來國會院警規劃諮詢委員會他的成員有21人招派了6次會議是啦這就不用再給我拖時間了我就你就簡單跟他說你怎麼有編預算嘛預算也編了你們編了多少本來去年編了多少好這個部分709萬709嘛還有開的錢嗎"},{"start":3472.808,"end":3501.895,"text":"還沒有一天就沒開到還沒有那你不做事了報告委員這個部分是這樣啦容我再補充一下在113年5月的時候總務處有報請邀請了黨團協商組成國會貢獻規劃及監督委員會那這個部分我們必須要等到議決以後然後配合預算709萬來辦理後續的規劃啦那如果說沒有在113年執行去年編的709就是給今年用那現在已經12月份了嘛"},{"start":3502.495,"end":3504.4,"text":"那你們預算怎麼辦保留?什麼到時候?都12月底了,什麼到時候?那就不可能辦保留了吧?"},{"start":3514.156,"end":3538.508,"text":"副部長答詢不能開玩笑,你動作在這裡,我是在跟你開槓這個是很嚴肅的事情,去年編的預算今年用,然後今年用你說可以講了很多理由,朝野動盪不安,為了整個議事你們這個幾乎心思花在這個地方,所以整個擴建我們就全部都停擺了就算你停擺,那你這個去年編的錢,你今年就沒編了嘛"},{"start":3541.576,"end":3550.656,"text":"所以說嘛從看你們花錢跟看你們有沒有編預算我就看得出來新任院長的心思嘛不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":3551.67,"end":3553.091,"text":"總規一句話你認為在韓院長任內裡面會有任何作為嗎?"},{"start":3580.985,"end":3593.634,"text":"這個部分我是不是請總務處長來做一個補充他沒有辦法回答這個啦搞不好你也沒辦法回答啦我是說從你們沒有編預算還有別人編的預算你們一毛錢都沒花就可以知道你這個態度了嘛這個不要跟我講漂亮的話這個議題是朝野最高度共識的欸到底是你們怠惰"},{"start":3603.517,"end":3624.221,"text":"程序上啦齁程序上黨團協商還是你們你不要推給黨團協商嘛這不要推給黨團協商這立法院是最有高度共識的你不要推給就立法院所有的各黨你們就沒有積極的作為啊如果啦如果這一個年度沒有沒有去使用到這個經費的話我們會一半保留你們會一半保留今天幾號今天幾號今天幾號你都不知道欸"},{"start":3634.895,"end":3649.725,"text":"不能嬉皮笑臉啦我跟你講我就從第一個上來的答詢我就覺得奇怪你怎麼這樣的一個答詢的一個方式可能你沒有準備喔可能是要周秘書長來自己親自來來來備詢的但也不能這樣像這一種東西就是親著我親著叫一下也可以回答什麼你給我回答這樣"},{"start":3653.174,"end":3653.234,"text":"我們積極辦理"},{"start":3684.056,"end":3687.082,"text":"對啦要積極辦理積極辦理是四個字積極辦理你們怎麼積極辦理法"},{"start":3689.974,"end":3706.608,"text":"市部的部分,會後再跟總務處這邊來做商討不行啦,你們這樣不行啦一毛錢都沒有花,你說你要積極辦理當然大家都年輕啦,這就不對啦立法院,我再另外一個重要的問題啦大家都希望是無紙化啦不要浪費這麼多的一座我給你看一下三天分的三天的,再過年一個你覺得你地下室你看過嗎?有多嗎?"},{"start":3716.997,"end":3730.852,"text":"有很多很可怕那確實是很可怕那這個議題我倒是這樣子認為我們立法院我們其實也在推這個五子化的一個會議但我相信大多數人也不太清楚你如果從立法院的內網裡面那個網站"},{"start":3733.815,"end":3733.855,"text":"﹚審查委員會議"},{"start":3754.85,"end":3778.022,"text":"我們也立法院身為最高民意機關我們也必須要去做一個社會的典範我們立法院是不是應該更加強來推動這樣電子化的公文系統讓沒有必要的紙張浪費來做一個減少怎麼樣去避免本期認為這個很重要尤其是說我也認為立法院應該建置一些量化的一個指標比如說"},{"start":3779.229,"end":3781.51,"text":"一年我要減少多少值的使用量的一個百分比然後呢"},{"start":3790.179,"end":3792.68,"text":"我相信立法院應該是積極來辦理的我不曉得你們的意見怎麼樣可以再加強嗎"},{"start":3820.387,"end":3834.235,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我想五指化這個趨勢是大家世界上共通的趨勢然後這部分可以分為兩個部分一個部分是電子公文的部分 一個部分是會議資料的部分這我都知道 先跟你說 我現在跟你說你要怎麼積極辦理就像你剛講的積極辦理 你有報嗎我要求的時候你要去做一個量化指標定期做一個公佈 你們有誰有沒有來幫忙他"},{"start":3847.441,"end":3847.782,"text":"副秘書長來回答這個問題"},{"start":3852.416,"end":3852.456,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":3883.14,"end":3886.955,"text":"當年的用紙量大概是15000令那到"},{"start":3888.075,"end":3900.817,"text":"去年大概112年的統計已經降到4000令所以我們整個很具體的一個節省大概73%的一個節省一年減7%?一年差不多不止1%請問你說7%?73%一年減73%?95年到112年總共減73%"},{"start":3917.02,"end":3944.268,"text":"本來是15000令今年呢今年大概也會預估大概用了目前113年到現在用1278令而已減少的跟去年減少的幅度做比較呢減少因為到113年以後就穩定了大概都是用4000令左右所以我的意思就是說我希望你沒有一個具體的一個指標那我會跟你"},{"start":3945.626,"end":3952.94,"text":"一間辦公室三天就這麼可怕 那麼多的一個辦公室有點可惜你看那個程序委員會對不對 起了大家手在手上就有人在現"},{"start":3957.768,"end":3979.819,"text":"你又不備又不行能夠電子化的盡量電子化好不好另外我要來幫我們立法院那麼多的助理來談一個問題我們在立法院工程的問題浪不浪費這個就是你們自己好好要自己去做一個檢討但是工程方面我不曉得你們有沒有注意到就是說立法院一天才有落一個機車走你在停你知道嗎有人知道這個問題嗎差不多就好了我有請我辦公室去算"},{"start":3988.493,"end":3989.473,"text":"我們地下的坡道是暗藏危機 要特別小心"},{"start":4016.084,"end":4017.766,"text":"秘書長、副秘書長或總務處長討論一下地下停車場的坡道可不可以改成比較防滑一點"},{"start":4024.653,"end":4048.06,"text":"防法一點﹖要不然你也要給那些助理大家這樣如果預計落後天提心吊膽這也不好這個是立委的沒問題大家有車的我也看到很少看到立委騎機車到立法院來的但是助理很多都騎機車那100多部放在外面的不算你要下去那個地方我相信你們也收到反應錢該花在刀口上的還是要去花了好不好最後一個問題我要就教的就是說你都有要出入識別卡嗎"},{"start":4053.281,"end":4056.322,"text":"委員指的是哪一種顏色的嗎?因為他有分不同的顏色。出入證啊。你也出入證啊。問他的功能啦。"},{"start":4069.468,"end":4069.488,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":4090.245,"end":4108.981,"text":"一些門禁、考勤、交通支付甚至於都讓拿的人都會覺得說它是非常有一個便利性好好地再去想一下讓這些使用的人覺得很便利那也體現一下你們對員工的一個照顧嘛"},{"start":4109.853,"end":4109.873,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":4127.381,"end":4153.531,"text":"不然立法院所有的各局處都在處理議事工房沒有這種事嘛你們各個單位全部都是不同的嘛那這個沒有提升的話代表沒有在做事啊你不能說立法院都是沒人管的立法院都是可以管你們的怎麼會不能管我們是說早末每一個政黨早末在政治議題啊可是你立法院該去提升的這個部分跟其他的各個單位啊立法院是一個院欸"},{"start":4155.032,"end":4157.853,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這個部分我們會來做一個研究提升它的功能"},{"start":4181.12,"end":4207.511,"text":"這個有必要啦 不然現在真的是太陽春啦 怨欸 我們這叫做怨欸 不要開玩笑欸好不好 你那個立法院那個簽件跟擴建那件事情喔 不要再推給各黨團好不好 你們錢沒有給人家用一毛錢 然後沒有去辦保留 然後明年的今年沒有給他兵辦毛錢 這代表叫做不是說你們以後要積極辦理 這個叫做怠惰啦好不好"},{"start":4208.42,"end":4231.58,"text":"謝謝委員,我們會辦保留啊,謝謝謝謝中委,欸,那個蜂蜜蜂蜜,我想請教,就是說,不好意思我,謝謝就是他那個,因為我注意到,就是立委下那個地下通道的時候他會有一個車牌辨識系統,然後那個同仁下去的時候他那個機車沒有辦法辨識,他可不可以多裝一個那個,不然我看他每一次都在那裡,被警察"},{"start":4232.483,"end":4232.503,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":4248.769,"end":4251.93,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生"},{"start":4277.28,"end":4292.426,"text":"主席我可以先請副秘書長但是我要先瞭解他哪些部分可以取代秘書長再請其他可以幫忙的人上來可以嗎先請副秘書長好不好麻煩副秘書長我來問一下啦那我再決定要請誰來協助他因為"},{"start":4293.43,"end":4321.452,"text":"所以你的意思是說時間先不要動,那我們先先不要動。副秘書長,因為抱歉喔,如果今天是秘書長的話,那我就可以很放心,那我必須詢問一下你對於法規的選手才決定邀請哪些主管來協助你好嗎?你對中華民國憲法熟悉嗎?熟讀啦齁?基本上熟悉。好,針對他們熟讀吧?立法院主治法熟悉吧?有閱讀過。立法院職權刑事法如果不了解的話你會問誰?"},{"start":4323.154,"end":4332.316,"text":"法治局還是議事處那議事規則不熟悉你會問誰議事處目前在熟悉當中因為修了很多啦我熟悉的是比較舊的那立法院各委員會主支法你熟嗎"},{"start":4347.748,"end":4349.849,"text":"你認為立法院存在的目的這個組織什麼目的根據組織法第二條目的是什麼"},{"start":4375.117,"end":4402.552,"text":"是不是要協助立法委員來問政行使憲法的職權是不是你不用看法條我就告訴你了立法院組織法立法委員行使職權嘛好那立法委員就來開會嘛你認為立法院組織法存在就是要讓我們立法院來開會你認為民主國家的軍隊可以阻止國會議員到立法院開會嗎到國會開會嗎可不可以基本上不行不行好那我們憲法規定啊我們中華民國憲法總統可不可以宣布戒嚴"},{"start":4405.148,"end":4422.998,"text":"可以可以但是要怎麼樣是不是要經過立法院的通過或追認是那沒有通過或追認有沒有效基本上呃不會憲法第39條你首讀嘛對不對對好那麼正確條文認為總統在戒嚴的時候可以解散國會嗎不可以嘛這直接回答顯然你不太熟喔顯然不太熟喔不可以對不對"},{"start":4433.74,"end":4459.06,"text":"所以如果在臺灣我們根據中華民國憲法根據那條文總統要宣布戒嚴要經過國會同意而且在這段時間不能解散國會要維持國會的運作是不是這樣那戒嚴法第11條什麼時候我們可以宣布戒嚴要有戰爭或叛亂發生嘛對不對而且如果在一個月內要提交立法院追認嘛是不是所以今天我們昨天看到一個情況你認為在臺灣可不可能發生"},{"start":4461.428,"end":4464.009,"text":"那麼請問議事處跟法制局的分別執掌剛剛問過了齁那麼"},{"start":4488.308,"end":4497.755,"text":"法治局他是根據什麼?議事處處負責什麼?議事的事項對不對?法治局是法治的諮詢你確定嗎?好來往下看"},{"start":4498.612,"end":4526.594,"text":"那往下看所以我們在發生了所謂的要成立院會要成立國發基金調查委員會他在11月20號院會決議要成立到他的委員會11月27號名單送議事處那12月2號我們提示開會選召委那時候呢你認為院會我先問你院會的決議可不可以抵觸法律可不可以違背法律不行很好往下看"},{"start":4527.569,"end":4540.94,"text":"來我們看一下這是院會的決議11月22號他有幾個重點他規定了調查會的組成按照各黨團的席次比例推派對不對一席次比例分布多少席61761是不是這樣子然後推派是誰推派黨團推派嘛那誰會整"},{"start":4557.777,"end":4571.214,"text":"議事處會診 會診有沒有審查或否準的權利 沒有 他只是會診 然後呢 院會匯報 什麼叫院會匯報 匯報給大會知道嘛 各黨能送來的名單嘛 院會有否準的權利嗎 有沒有 有沒有否準的權利"},{"start":4576.513,"end":4604.264,"text":"大聲點有沒有 要慢慢講 沒有基本上是沒有 沒有好 那麼他這裡面規定了黨團來推派比例如何而且規定了名單要跟院會報告第一次會議什麼時間決定了對不對決定了時間對不對 就是12月2號然後呢 是由國民黨黨團來推派臨時主席對不對臨時主席要做什麼事情 要決定召集人對不對召集人幾位"},{"start":4608.121,"end":4611.002,"text":"根據立法院各委員會組織法第4至1條"},{"start":4634.144,"end":4651.661,"text":"委員會的議程是不是由召委來決定?那麼調查委員會?調查委員會的議程是不是由調查委員會的召委來決定?那根據我們過去的慣例調查委成立之後召委產生之後是不是調查委員會的議程由該委員會的召委來決定?是嗎?是不是?"},{"start":4655.575,"end":4665.946,"text":"好 那請問一下安排議程是照理的法定職權 院會可以決議委員會第一次12月2號議決的內容 要他們去處理運作要點嗎可不可以我們採委員會中心主義基本上是委員會主義好很好 謝謝下一頁"},{"start":4674.721,"end":4701.944,"text":"好接下來第二個問題既然院會要求要成立決議要成立一個調查委員會也決定調查委員會的組成也要告訴他時間名單等等等還包括說要推選出召委而推選那個召委之前的臨時主席是由國民黨來推派都訂了很清楚了而且呢這個委員會呢運作的時候呢要一個要運作要點好那現在我請問一下你看了有沒有看到上上星期"},{"start":4703.515,"end":4709.999,"text":"十二強國際棒球十二強的決賽有嗎 對不對台灣的先發投手是誰林玉明林玉明很好林玉明是原來大會先發的名單當中的嗎不是中華隊台灣更換了嘛 對不對更換了依規定可以更換嗎"},{"start":4732.034,"end":4754.748,"text":"會受到處罰要罰款嘛那我們台灣就決定更換那大會可以強制不更換或強制要更換嗎不行很好所以今天我們院會的決定這個調查委員會的推派各黨人推派代表之後院會也匯報給院會知道之後第一次名單先發名單出來了先發名單出來之後民進黨團可不可以更換可不可以根據立法院執行法第45條之一事實侵犯改派可不可以"},{"start":4764.079,"end":4768.584,"text":"可不可以來 署長可不可以可不可以改派名單簽發名單出來了可不可以改派"},{"start":4773.019,"end":4800.283,"text":"這個涉及到說我們當初第一次院會的決議剛剛對阿決議阿決議說要送名單阿名單送了沒那名單如果不送的話就是預算送了沒已經送了送了送完之後可不可以改院會已經被查過了被查過了可不可以改被查過之後呢這個被查的名單就用來開第一次會好開了第一次會第一次會開的時候呢有黨團要求要改派那可不可以改那但是改派的話呢巡曆還是要再報告院會什麼叫巡曆來我們來看下一個例子來往下一看"},{"start":4802.205,"end":4823.326,"text":"當時啊我們說這個是要議事處是匯報院會報告往下一頁國民黨說啊說必須正式新聞被查方法變更有這樣的規定嗎我們現在看陳柏惟當年陳委員解職後我們黨人新聞議事處改派蔡世應院會被查什麼時候生效"},{"start":4827.352,"end":4855.586,"text":"回去查啦!被查的意思是什麼?我決定了事後告訴你就好了啦!副部長是不是這樣子?你收讀法規嘛!什麼叫被查?我決定了事後告訴你!是不是這樣子?所以處長,議事處的處長啊顯然對法規的了解有缺失啊往下看所以呢我們11月22號他說來看看調查委員會往下看要命期出席喔"},{"start":4856.616,"end":4885.39,"text":"明期出席來請問一下我們國發會的這個設置要點立法主管機關要聘請各黨團推薦的學者專家臨聘之這個基金會啊他是根據一個管理條例設置管理條例來依法臨聘之那這個臨聘的這些學者專家是由各黨團推薦好啦那現在呢要調查的時候這些學者專家有沒有出席的義務"},{"start":4887.438,"end":4904.006,"text":"立法院職員薪是吧?有沒有?基本上是臨聘啦那臨聘了以後他應該就有出席義務阿那他是對基金會的出席義務阿現在是調查委員會要請他來阿調查委員會要根據哪一條請他來往下看"},{"start":4906.943,"end":4928.133,"text":"我們來看一下齁我們的修正動議的內容啊是說什麼必案有無護航犯水刑事不法檢調真法違法失職監察院糾舉彈劾彈劾糾舉如果是行使憲法職權的特定議案的重大關聯是立法院調查那麼現在調查必案是立法院的職權嗎是不是法制局局長調查必案是誰的職權"},{"start":4935.691,"end":4939.174,"text":"請問一下目前這調查委員會他可以調查的人在我們立執法的規範當中第46條以及46條之一之二"},{"start":4964.224,"end":4966.086,"text":"第16條之二跟47條第二項和我們50條之一之三之四之五有沒有一樣"},{"start":4982.206,"end":5005.258,"text":"規範的內容有沒有一樣為你所謂的規範的內容一樣調查要求人員來進行聽證或詢問我們的調查權的行使是在第8章第45條之後他這整張都在規範調查權那他跟我們聽證權的3章59條之1到之5的內容第9章之1第9章之1對不對59條嘛對對對有沒有一樣"},{"start":5008.072,"end":5009.274,"text":"有些一樣,有些不一樣嘛。好,來,副部長,來啦。"},{"start":5012.304,"end":5040.078,"text":"我們歷史法往下一頁歷史法修改之後啊我們看到我們歷史法59條之五的第一項拒絕證言的事由涉及國安及國外交法律明定之個人隱私或公私的秘密請問59條之五的內容這些拒絕證言的事由我們在調查委員會裡面46條之一46條46條之二以及我們所說的47條第二項有沒有一致"},{"start":5042.011,"end":5065.914,"text":"有沒有疑似我直接告訴你啊47條的第二項沒有所謂的涉及國安國安外交啦也沒有法定名令的個人 Ease 跟其他秘密啦所以同樣的一個調查委員會當他辦聽證會的時候或者他進行調查的時候被詢問或調查的人他的拒絕證言的室友就不一樣了國民黨"},{"start":5067.588,"end":5087.26,"text":"院會的決議漏了國安跟隱私或營業秘密當事人可不可以主張?院會的決議只有寫喔!詢問的內容不得逾越調查目的事項範圍並於詢問前告知有拒絕證言之權利及事由拒絕證言之事由準用行政訴訟法的相關規定那麼有沒有包括59條之五的內容?有沒有包括?這樣決議的內容我們有沒有說排除59條之五的適用?"},{"start":5096.701,"end":5105.915,"text":"根文報告第50條之五在大法官宪判是第9號的解釋指向,第50條之五指第一項"},{"start":5107.895,"end":5126.609,"text":"沒有違憲第二項第三項第四項第五項第六項第七項都被大法官宣布所以這第一項的內容很重要對不對他的第一項的內容就是說出席人員有下列情形之一者的拒絕證言或表達意見區長我的設計是說11月22的決議內文有沒有排除59條之五第一項的適用"},{"start":5133.074,"end":5157.603,"text":"這個要由調查委員會的委員來他們做...欸剛剛副院長你不是說了嗎?我們立法院的院會的決定都不可以抵觸法律違背法律了難道調查委員會可以排除59條之5的第一項的適用嗎?這個既然已經成立調查委員會了這個要由調查委員的委員合議可以說我們不適用59條之5第一項可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":5159.822,"end":5180.303,"text":"第59條之五的第一項是宪判是第九號他是沒有宣布違憲要試用啊就要試用啊第59條之五的第一項的內容對於當事人被要求去詢問的當事人的權利保障比47條"},{"start":5182.777,"end":5211.689,"text":"的第二項更重要：主席有下列之一的拒絕陣營或表達意見：他可以拒絕陣營：他也可以表達意見應該要適用嗎?適用阿 這樣就對了問了半天 最後我要結束主席站起來 下一項好 最後呢 這個跟我們預算執行阿我們目前 副院長你知道我們立法院的會議是有一些空氣品質指標阿這個會議是有沒有?應該有阿 沒有阿 沒有空氣品質指標阿"},{"start":5213.647,"end":5233.7,"text":"指標的部分那個部分會議是公報處的部分公報處有沒有有沒有空氣品質指標總務處是哪一個處管的你都搞不清楚哪裡有空有沒有2011就有啦2011的交通委員會就有啦教育委員會紅樓伊尼也有啦那為什麼這裡沒有"},{"start":5234.625,"end":5263.147,"text":"是否要有?空氣品質指標要不要有?每個會議室都裝潮好不好?可以承諾嗎?好,空氣品質很重要。噪音污染要不要研究一下?那也要求比照空氣品質指標,把每個會議室的噪音啊,的指標也放進去。因為我們會議室啊,這個職場啊,霸凌呢,空氣不好,噪音過潮,都會妨害我們的意識。承諾每個會議室都安裝兩個,空氣品質跟噪音,可以嗎?"},{"start":5264.79,"end":5294.094,"text":"可以,如果委員支持的話好,那當空氣品質不佳或者是噪音產生的話怎麼辦有沒有斷訊斷音什麼情況之下可以斷音什麼消音什麼時候可以斷訊有沒有這個規範主席可以決定嘛,主席可以決定是不是阿如果空氣品質太差聲音太吵怎麼處理基本上這是國會自律事項國會自律事項,設備要不要支持要支持主席可以做出這樣的決定嘛"},{"start":5295.077,"end":5322.184,"text":"好那請我們最後一頁所以呢我們希望調查委員會根據我們的立職法那麼應該就要遵照立職法的規定而且請責成法治局立職法通過之後前後條文相關需要整合的配套規章要求一併提出一個研究報告這個跟委員報告我們在憲判是第9號之後我們有做一個那個"},{"start":5323.694,"end":5349.162,"text":"因備齊的配套規章有沒有準備?配套規章準備了沒?我們是有把它整理啦,把它整理後我們事後再提供給委員會跟委員辦公室可不可以?副秘書長,責任法治局一個月內把相關的配套規章因備齊的條文應該補齊的,我們國會要趕快迅速推動內規我是問副秘書長啦,一個月內可以嗎?"},{"start":5353.527,"end":5354.047,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":5370.475,"end":5371.836,"text":"我們現在是不是可以請副秘書長"},{"start":5400.492,"end":5418.845,"text":"副秘書長副秘書長好我們今天處理有關於立法院的預算那針對立法院的預算第一個問題是我們國會交流的事務我們預算增加了2500萬你有發現嗎"},{"start":5423.733,"end":5450.546,"text":"預算為什麼需要增加2500萬的這件事情是不是可以請我們負責國會交流的處事後再給所有的委員一個比較詳盡的書面資料因為我想你要多2500萬代表你要做很多新的事情讓所有的委員都知道這樣我們在審核預算的時候才有一個基準一個禮拜之內會有困難嗎"},{"start":5453.542,"end":5472.167,"text":"沒有問題沒有問題嘛那第二個事情就是說因為我們立法院裡面我們要去審人家的預算我們自己的預算到底怎麼用這件事情其實我們立法院自己要做表率啦那也因此我希望因為"},{"start":5473.519,"end":5487.346,"text":"新的國會台灣民眾黨當初所提出來的一個重要的訴求就是我們經費的使用必須要透明那這件事情呢當初不管是中國國民黨"},{"start":5489.173,"end":5510.319,"text":"還是民主進步黨他們的政府院長的候選人到台灣民眾黨黨團來拜會的時候他們也做出承諾了那因此我希望針對我們有關於國會交流事務的費用如果是有本院其他的一些自集團體所申請的話"},{"start":5511.806,"end":5533.838,"text":"那院長或者是透過什麼樣的機制准的話我覺得應該要有一個公開透明的機制讓大家都可以看得到這件事情會不會有困難不會有困難不會有困難嘛但是我必須要老實講到目前為止過去舊的國會到我們今天備詢為止這個制度都沒有建立起來"},{"start":5535.542,"end":5548.495,"text":"這個制度都沒有建立起來我當初201616到2020第一次當立法委員的時候我曾經有要過這樣的資料結果要這樣的資料引發那個時候高層蠻高的關切"},{"start":5550.977,"end":5580.337,"text":"但是我覺得這個事情我們所有的公務支出正正當當既然編在國家的預算裡面納稅人所使用那就應該讓全體納稅人都可以有一個機制大家都可以看得到那這個部分是不是再拜託秘書長回去跟同仁研議看什麼樣的時間點這個制度可以把它做起來那譬如說今年顯然來不及了嘛那明年我們的預算開始執行的時候這件事情是不是可以做到"},{"start":5581.337,"end":5599.869,"text":"副委員可以我接下來要問的是立法委員在議場裡面有攻防這難免但問題是立法委員在攻防的時候毀損公務這件事情這個錢到底應該要誰出這個錢應該納稅人出嗎副委員"},{"start":5610.007,"end":5631.235,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分應該是損壞者要負賠償責任好 那具體的來請教5月17號民進黨立委吳秉瑞砸毀備群台的螢幕請問這個修繕花了多少錢這邊容我請那個可以找熟悉的人上來回答"},{"start":5634.336,"end":5643.34,"text":"報告委員有關那個螢幕壞掉的部分的話是請廠商來維修目前沒有花錢就在保固就是維護裡面來執行就還在保固期間嗎OK好第二個11月4號財政委員會他砸毀了整個麥克風啊又是吳秉瑞這個花了多少錢"},{"start":5655.692,"end":5674.904,"text":"報告委員因為我們有關麥克風都會做備品的一個備品那因為麥克風使用他是非常及時的所以當這個設備有損壞的時候我們馬上是用備品來做使用那雖然是備品備品不要錢嗎備品要錢所以要多少錢目前我們在"},{"start":5681.645,"end":5690.128,"text":"備品使用以後再去買備品大概花了14萬花了14萬嗎?對阿花了14萬來請副秘書長誰應該要賠損壞者應該要負賠償責任那有跟損壞者求償嗎?損壞者有賠嗎?這個事情應該納稅人買單嗎?這是我的問題目前還沒有進行這樣的一個求償程序阿有打算要進行求償的程序嗎?還是就算了?"},{"start":5711.633,"end":5735.468,"text":"報告委員因為這個好像在院會裡面有一個對針對著這一個案子有一個提案那可能我們會依照這個院會的提案歸院會的提案嘛在侵權行為法裡面在刑法裡面毀損罪構成民事的侵權行為要負損害賠償責任這個是最基本的道理嘛"},{"start":5736.761,"end":5746.572,"text":"這是最基本的道理嘛這跟院會有沒有什麼樣的案子到底有什麼關係這是我的困惑這是我的困惑"},{"start":5748.191,"end":5748.631,"text":"副秘書長這個事情處理要多久?"},{"start":5775.734,"end":5799.783,"text":"如果委員都有公司的話基本上我們有一個月的時間把它處理掉用一個月的時間把它處理掉嘛好我要問的第二個問題是我們現在立法院各個會議室沒有申請使用我們自己可以開門去用嗎不開放使用不開放使用那我如果就是自己開門進去用了會怎麼樣目前是沒有法則"},{"start":5800.663,"end":5802.104,"text":"基本上是不開放時間不可以啦"},{"start":5827.301,"end":5851.121,"text":"那不可以但是我就是這樣子做了那現在打算要怎麼辦因為我們現在立法院的運作是要回到叢林法則嗎當然不是那所以這件事情你們有沒有什麼言議因為人家說啦說這是喇叭鎖阿沒有破壞阿用非常平和的手段阿就可以進來了那這個鎖要不要換阿"},{"start":5852.463,"end":5853.243,"text":"希望以後齁"},{"start":5881.311,"end":5907.863,"text":"不要再發生這樣的事情那最後一件事情這個是我要特別請你們回去研議的協商會議的會議記錄是不是應該都應該上網刊登公報是嗎從資訊公開的角度的話我們希望這個方式我跟副秘書長反映一下因為我常常會查立法紀錄我上次本委員會在處理"},{"start":5909.847,"end":5936.087,"text":"接避責保護法的時候我去查我們第9屆國會接避責保護法黨團協商委員會協商的會議紀錄結果我上去找了立法院議事及公報資訊網我在上面完全找不到那找不到呢我就請教了一下我們的同仁我們的同仁說2020年2月之前如果黨團協商沒有結論不會把會議紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":5939.79,"end":5957.862,"text":"那我現在只有一個問題黨團協商雖然沒有結論但是那個會議是有進行的而且那個時候應該IVOD都已經啟用了那是沒有做會議記錄導致沒有辦法上網還是有做會議記錄但是決定不要上網可以"},{"start":5963.41,"end":5974.218,"text":"跟委員報告那有關協商的部分發言跟那個影音是由公報處來做處理那我們會錄音錄影還有做書面的記錄但是黨團協商的那個報告是應該由那個黨團的協商的沒有沒有我現在不是在講黨團協商的報告是整個會議的會議記錄"},{"start":5986.766,"end":6005.743,"text":"比如說主席宣布開會哪一個黨團的代表說了什麼話哪一個黨團的代表說了什麼話之後的2020年2月以後的都有2020年2月以前的沒有現在我的問題是說之前是沒有記錄所以沒有上網還是有記錄但是沒有上網"},{"start":6008.408,"end":6029.015,"text":"記錄我們是會有但是那時候沒有上網是沒有上網的問題有記錄但不上網的理由是什麼過去應該是沒有因為上網的那個是到後面才2002年才開始有這個機制現在這個就是我的問題可不可以請你們回去研議一下"},{"start":6030.134,"end":6054.353,"text":"我們如果手上沒有資料你說要同仁重新回去聽黨可能人力耗費過去這我可以理解但如果既然已經有了資料的話要不要考慮一下之前的資料立法的過程盡量讓他透明嘛那這樣子的話不管是立委或者是其他的公民大家要追蹤這整部法案"},{"start":6056.598,"end":6077.806,"text":"到底是發生了什麼樣的事情誰做過什麼樣的主張或者是發言才有跡可循嗎這應該沒有很困難吧副秘書長可不可以承諾回去研究一下如果有記錄的話看用什麼樣子的方式逐步把它公開好不好好這個部分我們會後來做研究OK好謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":6099.954,"end":6122.586,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長委員好副秘書長辛苦了今天臨危受命在這裡大概我不知道你是不是能夠回答所有的問題不過我希望說你盡量能夠如果說你沒有辦法回答了你就請同仁上來協助謝謝這個"},{"start":6127.711,"end":6137.039,"text":"今天是我們這個有關110年度中央政府總預算案有關立法院的主管收支部分所以我就就預算的部分來跟副秘書長來討論那這個我們立法院組織法第32條"},{"start":6145.09,"end":6157.295,"text":"我們在112年12月18日三讀通過有關公費助理實施健康檢查這個明定入法在112年12月18也明定在114年1月1日開始實施也就是說再過不到一個月"},{"start":6169.124,"end":6176.689,"text":"我們就要開始實施這個公費助理實施健康檢查的有補助對不對副部長對不對沒錯對啦齁那這個這個目前這個資訊你們有沒有"},{"start":6185.165,"end":6210.68,"text":"透過各種方式公告收支讓所有的這些黨團以及公費助理大家了解在114年1月1號這不到一個月之後就可以申請健康檢查補助那他的申請的程序如何申請的方式怎麼樣來辦理申請可以申請多少補助等等相關資訊的宣導跟告知你們有做嗎"},{"start":6212.002,"end":6236.832,"text":"謝謝委員那個公費助理的實施健康檢查補助要點在113年5月9號已經院長已經核定了也就是剛剛委員說的從今年1月1號開始執行那這個要點在113年5月10號已經含送本院全體委員我知道要點通過了啦我意思是說在還不到一個月就要實施了你們用什麼方式來宣導讓這些讓所有立法院的所有的這些公費助理大家知道說"},{"start":6239.679,"end":6260.572,"text":"從1月開始可以申請健康檢查補助那如何申請?向誰申請?怎麼樣申請?你們有做宣導嗎?我們之前已經有行文過那現在我們可以再次行文來做宣導你們的行文給誰?助理工會?全體委員還有各黨團都知道全體委員好像沒有你們好像行文給助理工會有的那個署長來"},{"start":6262.515,"end":6289.542,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個是行文給那個全體委員的辦公室跟黨團辦公室這個已經行文過那到今年在那個健康檢查是今年的5月不是我說什麼時候行文我不是說那個要點通過也是5月10號就要點通過的時候你們就行文給對對對對對沒有錯那我們預計在明年度開始實施之前我們會再度行文就是現在啊明年度開始實施就不到一個月啦是我們會再度行文給委員"},{"start":6290.662,"end":6295.825,"text":"就不到一個月了今天已經12月4號了我們會盡快來請問你們這個實施要點裡面的第二點裡面的第三項你們寫到說補助的人數你們有補助對象補助金額補助次數補助人數"},{"start":6314.987,"end":6323.815,"text":"補助人數你們這裡說每年以各委員及黨團得聘用公會助理法定員而上限之半數為補助上限為什麼為什麼設定半數"},{"start":6327.217,"end":6348.652,"text":"只有一半的助理可以申請為什麼這個是比照公務人員因為當初這個訂法是比照公務人員的健康檢查來實施辦理那也就是說如果說每兩年一次因為公務人員的那個健檢的部分每兩年一次每兩年一次但是你們這裡你們有要點你們有規定說兩年才能申請一次嗎"},{"start":6349.272,"end":6367.709,"text":"沒有沒有是我們的經費編列就會用半數就像我們職工你們沒有規定說兩年檢查兩年才可以申請一次補助理論上是每年都可以申請補助對不對對但是我們的經費的編就不會用足額的那個時次因為是兩年一次所以不是你們兩年一次的依據在哪裡嗎"},{"start":6369.091,"end":6384.25,"text":"這個是那個參照公務人員的健檢的方式我們現在也是兩年一次辦理一次健檢就是那個兩年一次但是沒有規定兩年一次那一個人可不可以兩年都申請不行不行我們規定不行的規定在哪裡"},{"start":6385.098,"end":6406.57,"text":"這是那個公教員工的他那個有相關的規定我把規定拿出來我就是要看這個規定因為我覺得很納悶阿我們會後再送給委員把這個規定拿出來編列半數你們也沒有規定說兩年這個公費助理兩年才可以申請補助一次但是你們卻只編列了半數"},{"start":6408.479,"end":6431.096,"text":"我們會後把這個規定來送給委員但是我接著看你們的預算因為這個是明年度才新增的嘛新增的結果你們把這個預算這個有關這個健康檢查的預算你們跟這個員工的調整待遇的預算放在一起在同一個向下對不對"},{"start":6434.455,"end":6450.248,"text":"我們是放在公費助理的那個科目向下一般行政一般行政的一般事務費裡面沒有我們是放在公費助理的那個不是這個是員工協助方案對你們放在這個這個公費助理向下的這個你們的這一筆經費公費助理經費這個是多少8200欸不是"},{"start":6465.203,"end":6485.22,"text":"公費助理經費是8億2823萬1000是含薪資對所以如果是健康檢查的補助經費上年度增列你們是把它跟整個待遇調整跟健康檢查經費放在同一個向下對不對"},{"start":6487.219,"end":6492.207,"text":"我們是把那個預算書是由那個組織處這邊來編列副組長你能不能回答一下啦預算書的部分我們是不是請那個組織處來解釋好不好委員"},{"start":6504.566,"end":6527.092,"text":"委員好 有關那個公費助理他的健康檢查經費我們是編在預算書的公費助理工作計畫上下的業務費裡面有編了十萬八千元是有關委員助理的那個健康檢查經費你們是把他跟調整 調整待遇沒有沒有沒有這個是業務費調整待遇是人事費人事人事費我們預算書預算書上面的64頁64頁好那這個"},{"start":6533.05,"end":6560.399,"text":"這個部分齁你們另外有這個員工協助方案的部分啦齁EAP的部分適用對象我看你們在預算處裡面放在這個這個一般行政向下的一般事務費齁有主管人員40歲以上職工的健康檢查駕駛身心健康保護措施及員工協助方案等這放在一起對不對這員工協助方案公衛助理可以使用嗎為什麼這上面沒有提到公衛助理阿可以使用阿"},{"start":6562.806,"end":6584.367,"text":"司法對象有立法委員公費助理職員約聘僱人員主管人員40歲以上職工御用人員跟技工工友及駕駛都職這個是今年新增編列的過去沒有獨立編列對不對這今年新增編列的嘛這部分齁你們在這個這個我看你們現在的網站齁有關這個EAP的部分齁你們只有放一個放一支電話而已啦"},{"start":6585.393,"end":6606.058,"text":"放一支預約諮詢電話就這樣子沒有其他的員工這個這個員工協助方案的相關的的資訊在網路上網站上面全部沒有現在這個霸凌的問題這個這個大家這麼關注但是結果我們自己立法院在這個員工協助方案只放了一支電話這個部分回去改善好不好副部長"},{"start":6607.274,"end":6635.045,"text":"謝委員,這個剛剛其他委員也有關注到這個問題基本上我們會多加宣告接著我這個時間我要跟你確認一下因為我們這個在去年的9月立法院新成立國際事務處來慢慢來我們新成立這個國際事務處對不對去年9月成立了立法院的國際事務處對不對那我就是去年9月"},{"start":6636.144,"end":6636.344,"text":"委員會主管委員會"},{"start":6657.745,"end":6676.013,"text":"對 只有今年獨立處在編列齁 你們在國際事務室的預算案把它區分成兩個部分一個部分是一般行政 另外一個部分是國會交流的事務 對不對 這分成這兩部分一般行政的部分齁 你們過去編在這個 這個跟秘書處齁 一起編在公共關係等秘書業務經費 裡面編了1000萬"},{"start":6680.512,"end":6687.298,"text":"今年成立國際事務處之後就增加到這個1191萬增加了大概191萬左右這個是一般行政費用但是你們在這個"},{"start":6705.69,"end":6714.299,"text":"這個國會交流事務上面齁你們今年的從去年的預算齁去年邊在秘書跟秘書處混編的去年邊在國際事務處的這個國會交流事務經費齁去年是4160萬今年增加到6759萬對不對"},{"start":6726.821,"end":6729.243,"text":"為什麼增加這麼多?增加2500萬,將近2600萬2599萬的國際交流事務經費為什麼增加這麼多?我們是不是請國際處林處長回答一下"},{"start":6740.623,"end":6741.384,"text":"不是不是不是 我說為什麼增加"},{"start":6759.461,"end":6778.527,"text":"為什麼增加三大項一個是呃國會國際論壇就是明年我們是台灣呃立法院是這個appu亞太國會議員聯誼會的主辦國所以我們編了一千萬這是一個大型的國際會會大概有呃上近百個那個國會議員到台灣這個部分增加一千萬嗎是但是我們總共增加是兩千六百萬捏"},{"start":6779.087,"end":6780.828,"text":"所以還有1600萬是增加在哪裡?接待部分增加1600萬喔?為什麼?為什麼增加這麼多?"},{"start":6800.723,"end":6818.24,"text":"跟委員報告我們到今年的11月30號值我們已經有立法院已經接待55國175團1984人次也就是說今年你們認為說過去這麼多年來編列的預算不夠所以今年在明年度的預算增加了1500萬就扣掉剛剛講的1000萬"},{"start":6822.466,"end":6823.868,"text":"韓院長上任之後比以前在接待外賓增加了將近1000萬的經費"},{"start":6835.103,"end":6852.597,"text":"那我們去年是164團那我們今年已經已經到11月底175團人數你剛剛講的辦理國際論壇有沒有提供業務計畫給立法院呃這一部分要等待那個外交部跟日方那個秘書處那邊給我們相關資料我們會呈報呈報你們編列了1000萬的你說編列1000萬的預算結果在預算審查的時候連個業務計畫都沒有"},{"start":6857.691,"end":6876.99,"text":"是不是?你們連業務計畫都沒有提供就要1000萬報告委員我們是參照確認我跟你講我時間到了啦你這個編列新增這個過去沒有的項目你新增辦理這個論壇你增加了1000萬的預算你就應該要有業務啊就應該要有業務報告啊你說這個業務報告要等外交部"},{"start":6877.771,"end":6883.878,"text":"等相關的經驗但是你們怎麼算這1000萬你還是要有業務計畫啊在哪裡在預算書看到嗎在本委員會看得到嗎預算審查過程中你們有提出來嗎什麼事後在預算審查的時候你們就要提出來了啦好不好"},{"start":6901.342,"end":6924.469,"text":"謝謝那我們下一位請林月琴委員林月琴委員林月琴委員那再請鄭天才委員發言我先宣告一下在羅志祥委員發言完畢之後我們休息5分鐘謝謝"},{"start":6928.895,"end":6937.603,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長副秘書長好今天來不是針對你們的預算"},{"start":6942.987,"end":6971.234,"text":"而是 如果我們 我是期免啦齁 期免我們立法院的 因為畢竟 這個立法院在五院之中 非常重要的一個角色 尤其是在審查預算或是決算的時候 都非常重要 這個我們就以常常我們的 很多的立法委員會常常引用的是什麼呢 就是預算中心嘛"},{"start":6972.674,"end":6988.741,"text":"對預算中心的資料這就很重要因為這個立法委員來自各個不同的地方然後的任期也不切也不一定所以然後這個委員的助理的經驗也未必那麼的"},{"start":6989.501,"end":6990.322,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7004.189,"end":7004.209,"text":"：審查："},{"start":7030.067,"end":7057.559,"text":"這個被因為霸凌案然後就產生了這個相關的預算的滋用我們就以就業基金來講以這個為例就業安定基金這很清楚的就業安定基金的用途非常清楚用途非常清楚但是卻被挪用作為不應該滋用的地方"},{"start":7059.06,"end":7081.433,"text":"那表示什麼呢?表示這個預算的編列怎麼樣去把它檢討這個是我們要去當然立委有責任立法院的這些同仁也有責任提供就像預算中心一樣能夠提供好的一個對國家對社會有幫助的部分"},{"start":7085.922,"end":7114.077,"text":"因為這個就案提及非常重要啊你看貝爾納用到八千多萬的錢這五個很難以想像啊這裡面還包含著什麼呢包含著操資並結算啊因為預算是看不出來啊在審查預算的時候看不出來就案提及他要做什麼用他寫的很掛勉堂皇啊就是符合"},{"start":7116.207,"end":7143.065,"text":"就要安提金的用途在預算書裏面是符合啊看不出來啊但是為什麼後來可以做這種事情會被挪用就是因為操資並結算很少人知道操資並結算啊連一般的公務員也不知道操資並結算是什麼更何況這個立法委員的這些助理"},{"start":7144.841,"end":7170.621,"text":"一般公務員也不知道超支並結算事實上就是超支並結算這個機制顯然有問題預算中心的同仁怎麼樣能夠提出這樣的我也請教過預算中心我雖然是老公務員我30年公務員我還請教過預算中心什麼是超支並結算"},{"start":7172.552,"end":7200.053,"text":"因為不是每個部會都有這個有這樣的一個機會碰到遭操之並結算尤其是尤其是執行預算非常嚴謹非常依法行政的時候沒有去操之並結算當然也就不知道操之並結算的這個功能還是他的我們講法寶嗎"},{"start":7202.45,"end":7230.725,"text":"所以這個部分了﹖所以祈勉我們所有的這個立法院的同仁能夠為國家為人民來去守護我們的相關的這些預算的審查結算的審查所以顯然呢審計部沒有顯然沒有好好的就結算的部分來善盡責任"},{"start":7232.079,"end":7232.939,"text":"主席有請張副秘書長麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":7265.264,"end":7290.993,"text":"請教副秘書長南韓總統尹錫悅昨天深夜宣布緊急戒嚴令還派出武裝部隊試圖攻入議會大廈要逮捕參加會議的國會議員你身為國會的議員工作人員對於尹錫悅這種宣布戒嚴甚至用軍事力量來攻擊國會的做法你怎麼看"},{"start":7293.052,"end":7311.058,"text":"基本上是民主憲政國家不應該用這種方式來處理不應該所以你不認同這個做法但是我要告訴大家民進黨立法院黨團可是非常認同他在尹錫悅宣布戒嚴令之後的第一時間"},{"start":7312.503,"end":7338.185,"text":"他就發出一個貼文我把第一段唸給副秘書長聽南韓國會被清北韓勢力操控南韓總統尹錫悅為守護自由憲政體制緊急宣布全國戒嚴我聽到民進黨說肯定尹錫悅的戒嚴是為了守護自由的憲政體制"},{"start":7339.875,"end":7363.943,"text":"我說真的我的下巴都被嚇到快掉下來我不知道今天副秘書長你這新聞有看到吧對不對應該很不方便回答就不問你我覺得任何正常的我們台灣的民眾聽到民進黨去肯定戒嚴還說這叫做守護自由憲政體制下巴全部被嚇到掉下來"},{"start":7365.233,"end":7392.994,"text":"那麼我只能說全歷史人瘋狂但尹錫悅讓民進黨瘋狂啊這尹錫悅這樣的一個戒嚴的動作整個民進黨好像馬上就是原形畢露就立刻把這個羊皮外衣脫掉狼性就展現出來了另外尹錫悅宣布戒嚴想要動用軍隊攻佔國會他的理由是什麼不知道秘書長知道嗎"},{"start":7394.346,"end":7412.729,"text":"他有兩個理由啦請委員指示一個是在野黨癱瘓政府另外一個是要剷除清北韓勢力我不知道秘書長你聽起來有沒有覺得很熟悉非常有既視感因為這不是在南韓發生而已啊"},{"start":7414.222,"end":7437.603,"text":"過去這一年在我們立法院當我們在追超時雞蛋當我們在審今天預算民進黨的浪費當我們在揪出今天民進黨把就業安定基金當作自己的小金庫當我們在監督民進黨殘害文官、見害文官、霸凌文官種種事情的時候民進黨扣的帽子是什麼就是我們台灣政府啊"},{"start":7441.141,"end":7468.729,"text":"就是我們變成是誰親共的勢力也難怪今天尹錫悅今天宣布戒嚴明吉良會這麼嗨真的是秒發文欸速度極快欸雖然後來刪文了啦速度非常快就把他心聲說出來了嘛明吉良可能恨自己慢了一步尹錫悅做到了明吉良沒來得及做到他可能恨這件事情啊"},{"start":7470.871,"end":7499.293,"text":"與民進黨的論調完全一樣這不是我個人主觀感受啊抱歉啊民進黨在立法院黨團的貼文說第一段大大的肯定尹錫悅戒嚴是為了守護自由憲政體制他第二段第三段講的是什麼講的就是藍白癱瘓政府民進黨在抵抗世界級的暗黑勢力就跟尹錫悅一模一樣啊"},{"start":7500.882,"end":7516.375,"text":"那我要想請問大家去想一件事情剛剛我們副秘書長已經講到了你也不認同這個做法到底尹錫悅宣布戒嚴您覺得他是守護自由憲政體制還是破壞自由憲政體制您覺得"},{"start":7518.168,"end":7520.529,"text":"這個你回答保守沒有關係但下一個問題恐怕你的回答就跟立法院直接相關了我就要問你了"},{"start":7547.148,"end":7572.168,"text":"我們偉大的民進黨立法院黨團他爐裂很負責任的爐裂為什麼他要肯定隱形院戒嚴是所謂的捍衛自由的憲政體制他其中有一個理由我看到我真的是頭都暈了他說因為立法院百般刁難王逸川就職立法院百般刁難王逸川就職"},{"start":7573.683,"end":7587.092,"text":"民進黨衝關一路為翊川阿原來拼戒嚴肯定戒嚴擁戴飲習樂是為了王翊川阿好問題來了我想請問這問題很嚴肅阿請問副秘書長大院有百般刁難王翊川就職嗎有沒有"},{"start":7596.547,"end":7620.292,"text":"沒有沒有啊那為什麼他要說你百般刁難王逸川就職啊為什麼這個部分我們並不是很清楚啦那民進黨說真的他腦袋到底塞棉花還是塞木屑啊你今天隨便掰理由你也掰出個有本據的理由什麼叫做百般刁難王逸川就職我這樣講啦就往例來講過去部分據立委的地譜大概要多少時間啊"},{"start":7622.775,"end":7641.12,"text":"部份區立委的一個地補程序有幾個過程第一個部分就是立委辭職以後我們會簽奉院長來核定以後來函中選會還有內政部來註銷這個名籍那第二個程序是中選會會依選法法規定在15日內公告地補然後"},{"start":7643.04,"end":7668.947,"text":"第三個程序是中選會公告以後會喊請司法院派大法官來監視那這個宣誓時間就協商院長大法官還有委員的時間來辦理宣誓以往平均的時間大概是一個禮拜本次宣誓時間也是一個禮拜左右對嘛民進黨有點學問好不好沒有常識沒有知識起碼去考據一下嘛"},{"start":7670.337,"end":7683.632,"text":"紅森漢是11月25日接任勞動部長王逸川是12月2日在立法院宣誓就職沒錯吧就一個禮拜阿別人一個禮拜沒事你王逸川一個禮拜叫做刁難他阿你王逸川是皇帝還是什麼今生"},{"start":7689.401,"end":7717.059,"text":"塗在身上啊 碰不得啊 要跟人家不一樣啊更好笑的是竟然王逸川可以成為民進黨衝關一路拼戒嚴肯定戒嚴的一個理由搞到半天竟然是支持尹錫悅戒嚴肯定尹錫悅戒嚴為了自由新人體制竟然是為了王逸川你民進黨不要笑死人好不好"},{"start":7718.39,"end":7741.785,"text":"再下一個我也要跟民主組長講謝謝你剛剛回答很清楚不要讓這些抹黑黨在那邊亂抹黑像剛剛拿出鐵證來打臉他們一個禮拜時間什麼叫刁難別人一個禮拜不叫刁難你一個禮拜叫刁難莫名其妙的民進黨再下一個我就要問也是跟您有關跟國會有關這跟國會的安全跟尊嚴有關的問題"},{"start":7747.64,"end":7775.987,"text":"當然我們萬萬不期待南韓的情況在台灣發生但是呢如果今天我們總統真的跟尹錫悅一樣賴清德跟尹錫悅一樣宣布戒嚴那如果還動用軍隊來攻佔國會逮捕國會議員我想請問這種情形發生的話在法制上在現況上立法院如何因應"},{"start":7778.069,"end":7793.964,"text":"基本上 憲法上國會有家宅權 那我們有家宅權當然有一些防禦的一個配置面對是國軍 軍隊 武裝部隊 你的防禦 有辦法防禦嗎還有一個問題喔 能防禦嗎"},{"start":7801.842,"end":7823.321,"text":"總統下令軍隊來打國會 國會就算說今天有國會的駐衛警 國會的駐衛警能夠去跟軍隊不要講能力啦 我講說法制上他能夠防禦嗎 還是大門一開就讓軍隊進來實質上這個是勢力非常懸殊啦 那第二個部分就法制層面來看啦 不應該有這種情況發生啦我跟你講在南韓也不應該這種情況發生 南韓是民主國家"},{"start":7827.682,"end":7855.801,"text":"也是民主國家然後用的所謂的攻打國會理由跟民進黨87%相像啊所以這個部分應該還是有那個憲政機關來互相尊重我要跟大家講今天南韓最後坦白講我覺得接近總統政變總統在推翻民主總統在推翻憲政用的理由就是民進黨現在用的理由可是還好南韓我覺得的民主的根基是深厚的"},{"start":7857.214,"end":7882.424,"text":"顯然他們的軍隊也沒那麼配合所以這個總統想要遂行個人的意志來顛覆民主政權短短幾個小時昨天晚上就失敗了半夜宣布的戒嚴早上起來就不見了這個是今天真的能夠抵抗獨裁者最重要的韌性所以在這邊因為南韓昨天發生這麼重大的事情而且是跟國會有關的"},{"start":7884.045,"end":7907.437,"text":"所以今天在這邊也來救教一下副秘書長 最後還是一個簡單的結論尹錫悅瘋了啦 但民進黨更瘋 進來後就肯定尹錫悅瘋狂的民進黨 謝謝接下來我們請林思明委員 那我們接下來休息五分鐘"},{"start":7910.64,"end":7915.174,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8244.472,"end":8245.214,"text":"主席副秘書長"},{"start":8263.097,"end":8287.64,"text":"副委員我想先就公費助理的議題來詢問你我們看到國會助理是對我們立委問政非常重要的左右手在委員的問政及辦公室的運作都是要靠這些助理給我們充分的協助所以幕僚實際上就是我們委員整個職權行使的延伸"},{"start":8288.801,"end":8317.203,"text":"當然我們在分工上也包羅萬象不管是有跑行程有處理選服行政事務製作質詢稿撰寫相關的談餐研擬法案所以業務是非常的多元所以助理的專業水準高我們的立委的問政的品質水準也會這個相對的提高所以幕僚的性質也就是公費助理的角色"},{"start":8318.324,"end":8318.945,"text":"公費助理的待遇"},{"start":8336.141,"end":8349.23,"text":"通常我們這個新鮮人跟這些資深助理會有一定的落差所以關於公費助理的待遇如何進一步的完善我們整個助理的一個"},{"start":8350.645,"end":8369.234,"text":"高的流動率如何來降低一個流動率讓人才願意留下來為我們立法院來服務那這部分我想就叫我們的這個復名組長我們也看到最近就是整個霸凌事件所造成的重大職場的不友善的事件"},{"start":8370.214,"end":8399.28,"text":"所以我們立法院是否可以以身作則在公費助理長期處在一個高壓的備障狀態之下能夠關注我們助理的身心健康所以是否能夠打造適時紓壓的友善職場環境來提高助理的續航力在這一部分我們立法院有沒有相關的一些舉措相關的一個友善我們職場環境的一個相關的一個辦法或規定"},{"start":8401.549,"end":8418.262,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我想公費助理的重要性,剛剛委員所說的那個內容,我們都同意而且非常認同。就委員所垂詢的,有關助理的薪資的"},{"start":8420.384,"end":8440.316,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8441.757,"end":8455.743,"text":"其他部分剛剛委員所提到的我再補充一點就調薪的部分歷來公費助理調薪都依例都比照軍公教調薪的這種方式來辦理目前委員的助理薪資每個月"},{"start":8458.304,"end":8483.412,"text":"總數是45萬多元那當然注意的話是57萬多元那這部分會比照來做調整那另外委員所垂詢的這個目前的一個媒體上可能有這些霸凌的狀況產生那本院除了定有立法院員工職場霸凌防治與申訴處理作業要點這個部分在處理的部分我們也是適用的"},{"start":8490.535,"end":8500.099,"text":"根據本席了解,公費助理編列的預算中關於每會期每人的文康活動費的運用資訊好像不是很透明"},{"start":8501.024,"end":8525.605,"text":"就是說你對於這個相關這個助理的相關的文康活動費的運用他的整個資用的一個情形並沒有跟我們的助理工會做相關的一個討論所以是否未來可以就整個我們相關這些有關於助理的文康活動費或者相關的費用的支出能夠更加的公開"},{"start":8526.866,"end":8534.201,"text":"把整個運用的一個細項能夠跟助理工會來做充分的討論來符合我們公開透明的原則"},{"start":8535.731,"end":8561.448,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心這個部分有關於公費助理的一個文康活動費的補助的部分那我們都一直以來都是要參照本院職工文康活動的編列跟使用然後按年度來編列公費助理文康活動經費那我們也研擬了補助的一個要點草案那相關的一個事項會後會在助理公會來做一個研討"},{"start":8563.149,"end":8585.266,"text":"我想剛才副委員你也同意說我們助理非常的辛苦那現在大概就是一年你剛才講是四十二萬四十五萬八千多元那一年如果說把公費的助理的預算如果調升大概百分之二十一年的預算大概會增加多少"},{"start":8588.278,"end":8593.888,"text":"因為你也肯定說他們很辛苦嘛所以未來他們的待遇有沒有在於調高的可能性"},{"start":8596.821,"end":8618.97,"text":"這個部分我們有沒有做研擬目前未來可不可以做研擬我想現在物價也一直調漲助理公費的相關的待遇薪資可不可以我們立法院再編列更多的預算讓我們立法委員能夠更在聘請助理方面能夠有更多的一個待遇來吸收到更好的一個人才"},{"start":8619.969,"end":8637.279,"text":"有沒有這種可能性?可不可以研擬啊?我們當然研擬有沒有是沒有問題啦。是幫我們助理來爭取權益啦。對,今天好像主計總署也有啦。我還是希望說你要去研擬相關可行性的方案啦。同仁也就這個部分表達一下他的看法,我建議這樣。你說請誰表達?主計總署今天也有。好啊,有沒有來?主計總署有沒有來?那個張專委。好,請專委喔。"},{"start":8651.124,"end":8658.755,"text":"你知道我的意思啦就是國會的助理公費助理的待遇有沒有調高的可能性學者現在物價的一個調漲"},{"start":8662.54,"end":8682.939,"text":"因為那個公費助理那個待遇他就是他不是我們主計總處來核定他待遇可不可以調整那如果當然如果待遇他能夠權責機關能夠讓核定他能夠調整的話那當然我們會配合編列預算主計總會配合嗎所以還是要由立法院來研擬可行性啊"},{"start":8683.985,"end":8686.748,"text":"6層是在審議會退休人員或他的眷屬無常使用"},{"start":8703.843,"end":8731.249,"text":"並未支付我們相關的租金或管理費這樣的一個情況未來要如何解決因為這樣做是不是會偏離說我們這個宿舍應該支持現職人員職務需要才去配給他宿舍如果你現在那麼多宿舍還是由這些過去審議會的這些相關的人員繼續在就是他的家屬繼續配置會不會背離我們的初衷"},{"start":8732.686,"end":8756.634,"text":"這個我們定有相關的要點那這個部分我們是不是容請那個中南部辦公室的卿主任來回答跟委員報告這個對眷屬宿舍的保障是在雖然在72年有一個宿舍那個事務管理規則裡面是沒有已經沒有眷屬宿舍可是在74年有做過解釋原來的原來的眷屬是有一個保障所以我們現在有在"},{"start":8758.734,"end":8781.201,"text":"民主議政園區裡面還有36戶的住宿宿舍那現在因為經過時間的遞移的話我們現在現存有24戶那24戶奇怪的我們因為全部有72戶那我們現在也在做一些活化的計畫那我們因為它是公共財產不能夠委託經營所以我們跟國產署也有一個共識可以用出產法的方式來對這個宿舍做一個活化的利用"},{"start":8782.803,"end":8801.849,"text":"對當然要活化利用我們都很贊同我是說現在是不是有這種就無償提供給這些家屬繼續使用收不回來的情形我因為是法定就是立法院行政院在這個部分有一個解釋函他對我們現在現存24戶他有個保障是對所以對他們有一個保障對是是OK好"},{"start":8805.014,"end":8819.715,"text":"但是我想這個就是提升他資產的管理效能你剛有提到就是未來會活化嗎所以相關宿舍管理的辦法是不是可以明確規範相關的條件還有相關租金的標準你們未來會不會訂定"},{"start":8822.045,"end":8822.505,"text":"下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":8856.964,"end":8861.408,"text":"謝謝主席楊全發言是蜂蜜請蜂蜜"},{"start":8865.751,"end":8887.806,"text":"副秘好曾經擔任過審議員的目前在這一屆裡頭就是我非常尊敬的陳昌明委員他是第10屆那本席是第9屆跟第10屆那上一任的游錫堃院長跟這個蘇貞昌院長那都是第7屆第8屆"},{"start":8889.947,"end":8913.845,"text":"所以我也感謝在上個禮拜我們一起把益政博物館那終於是開幕而且加入了很多的AI的系統讓大家都能夠了解那更了解我們台灣民主的珍貴他的意識保存能夠讓我們的民眾甚至全世界的人了解"},{"start":8915.026,"end":8938.966,"text":"但是在這當中我具體建議因為就像我們的市議員美芳他爸爸是劉秉偉議長那所以因此他當時第10屆的議長就是劉議長那第9屆剛開始進去是屏東的這個簡明井議長所以大家當時知道說政治的中心就在省政府"},{"start":8940.888,"end":8966.202,"text":"從審主席一直到審長用選的那當然這個審議會呢也是政治的中心在這個本席有幸參與到民國78年到87年那這9年當中讓我很大的一個歷練跟學習而且在整個國家的重大建設裡頭比如說橫向的東西塊的部分就當時在第9屆跟第10屆的任內去完成之"},{"start":8967.422,"end":8989.506,"text":"所以我非常的希望當然現在是動審在當時87年動審但是我要給大家一個觀念他是動審他不是廢審他是動審他不是廢審歷史的脈絡是不容磨滅當天我去看了這個議政博物館我們的歷史的這個部分呢審議會的部分我沒看到"},{"start":8991.854,"end":9016.169,"text":"這是一個歷史脈絡比如說我們立法院我們門口的是這個如果落款是王金平院長但現在是韓國瑜院長所以他仍舊是王金平院長仍舊是當時這是一個歷史這是一個非常重要的一個資產本期那一天是一方面高興終於在游錫堃院長的時候我告訴他"},{"start":9017.009,"end":9033.264,"text":"你擔任過第7屆第8屆蘇貞昌院長你怎麼可以把它廢掉呢當時是大家是要廢的我極力反對當時我們是圖書館我說我們必須要將這些疫症全部留下來因為不留下來就沒得了"},{"start":9034.665,"end":9034.785,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9051.184,"end":9066.417,"text":"他們從開始甚至二代三代都有那麼讓他們能夠安安生能夠在那邊繼續工作而且巫峰是一個非常好的地方所以我講這個歷史因為接下來我們還有一個民主時刻館"},{"start":9067.398,"end":9080.596,"text":"我真的充分建議因為我們劉平偉議長的女兒她也來跟我陳情他說我爸爸在第10屆做了那麼多事情但是他回去的時候看不到台灣審議會"},{"start":9083.311,"end":9083.631,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9102.285,"end":9119.979,"text":"站第三邊邊我在那邊9年我很愛這個地方這個是一個民主非常重要的一個基地那這個也是台灣最重要的一個議政的一個一個非常重要的一個原地所以我具體建議將台灣審議會的這些歷史必須要去去把它做出來我覺得這個非常重要你同意嗎"},{"start":9130.878,"end":9131.959,"text":"接下來本席要跟您討論的操心館"},{"start":9153.649,"end":9159.552,"text":"因為當時他旁邊都是農業區我們北中南東來的審議員當時第9屆是77個那第10屆加2個新北加2個所以我們這個這個動審的時候呢第10屆是停留在79個審議員"},{"start":9170.297,"end":9195.448,"text":"在這樣的一個情況下朝廷管每個房間都是歷史性非常重要可是本行也覺得這麼好的地方為什麼呢因為你必須我建議我們立法院我們如果要做就要把它做好因為不要只有做一半第一個你的都市計劃你必須要去做調整因為你如果要當旅館"},{"start":9197.737,"end":9217.336,"text":"當旅館你必須要符合我們的旅館的這個條件那你必須要把專案拿出來必須要專案拿出來你OT的時候你BOT的時候你才能夠有人願意啊我怎麼你現在當然是飆不出去嘛對不對因為你的建築條件你是不適合來做這個旅館的嘛"},{"start":9222.421,"end":9250.462,"text":"所以你要從根去把它做好政府有這個政府這個非常重要的這個資產啊像我的房間我在那9年254在後棟的二樓這個非常重要啊我們那個地方是太美了佔地3000坪交通向草屯交流道下來從南這邊那麼從北從我們屋峰交流道下來就在門口這麼好的地方我相信你去把它正本"},{"start":9251.363,"end":9251.383,"text":"議員：審查"},{"start":9275.741,"end":9281.778,"text":"這個部分我們中辦的邱主任其實他擔任過觀光局長就這個部分他有做嚴厲我們是不是請他就一個補充說明"},{"start":9284.049,"end":9312.019,"text":"委員補充報告兩點第一個部分就是一路會館這個部分我們在年底今年年底我們會有一個OT案的簽約他是由台灣農創就是12家農會共同組成一間農創公司來跟我們簽約然後第二件事情就是說接下來我們最重要的部分就是第一個問題你OT你必須要讓他條件符合不要像目前條件不符當然大家不看錢就退出了嘛對不對我不希望那個地方是不活絡的要活絡啊請說"},{"start":9313.539,"end":9331.24,"text":"第二件事情就是我們現在旅館的旅館登記這是一件很重要的事情我們現在也跟除了立法院以外我們也跟這個農商公司我們一起在合作針對這個因為合法的這個合法登記必須要有一些消防一些無障礙那我們現在正在施工當中"},{"start":9331.681,"end":9336.043,"text":"我們這個區塊是美的不得了旁邊也有亞洲大學他的這個美術館世界有名的然後我們三山館在旁邊然後我們的宗教也在旁邊在我們奧斯瓦亞萬佛寺在上面在上面還有這個一貫道的這個總壇在那邊"},{"start":9359.531,"end":9362.172,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":9378.741,"end":9380.142,"text":"我們下一位請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":9413.125,"end":9437.411,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩我們請張副秘書長麻煩張副秘秘書長他血氧的問題他現在回辦公室休息那他昨天好像也是在住院嘛他這幾天身體狀況不好我都有跟他保持聯繫好OK好了解謝謝謝謝主席好"},{"start":9439.151,"end":9451.147,"text":"張副秘書長我想請教剛剛延續這個楊委員的發言所以我們在上一個會期有看到是說立院之前的簽紙計畫還有在進行甚至有媒體報導講說韓院長屬於是北部為主"},{"start":9454.691,"end":9479.018,"text":"從過去到現在一直有討論這所謂的立院簽紙的一個計畫包括說上一屆的時候由錫堃院長是有最後選定6個地點那如果說以北部來講的話比較有可能就是空總土城看守所跟中正紀念堂那到目前為止好像又沒有任何的一個進度或進展那明年的一個相關的計畫也沒有這樣的一個安排我可不可以請教一下目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論"},{"start":9480.575,"end":9480.675,"text":"來 請說明一下"},{"start":9490.168,"end":9512.788,"text":"委員好,今年應委員會的要求,我們總統署已經簽報相關的計畫上來那等朝野協商後呢,那我們就會繼續辦理後面的相關的程序但你簽報的計畫是到哪邊?有委員有收到嗎?因為我看到你們明年的年度計畫也沒有任何的針對這個部分有要討論的方向啊因為程序上阿連可行性評估連計畫的這個預算都沒有"},{"start":9517.183,"end":9536.104,"text":"我實在很難講,如果說現在已經沒有討論,你就可以直接講沒有討論,那不然的話你會讓我們覺得是說,因為國人也是想要了解這一塊,因為畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講,有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡來說,現在的立法院、院區可能是不服使用嘛。"},{"start":9537.737,"end":9563.164,"text":"來簡單說明一下向委員報告我們有提報像成立的機制然後還有過去選址的情況是提報草野協商所以目前是在等待草野協商的結果那至於協商後我們有在今年13年度有編列709萬的先期規劃的費用那剛剛的詢問之下我們也會辦理保留那保留到明年等到草野協商的結果之後我們會先進行先期規劃的一個辦理"},{"start":9564.384,"end":9570.568,"text":"所以說還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商是不是?"},{"start":9570.568,"end":9590.441,"text":"是另外一個部分我們在討論這個職場安全職場霸凌的案件裡面其實本席也關注到我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平因為在今年這一屆裡面特別不同是我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況是有所聞"},{"start":9591.892,"end":9608.346,"text":"我們的這個執政黨的委員他可以說對於準備資料的議事人員叫罵甚至搶奪立院駐衛警的帽子來襲警那之前也有執政黨的委員他去搶秘書長的手中資料有搶議事人員的麥克風還有"},{"start":9610.854,"end":9633.576,"text":"早上4點去開門的那第一次開門的時候我們請院長說院長你要瞭解這樣的狀況不能說立法委員帶頭執法犯法結果第二次開門他直接不演了講說我沒有破壞門鎖是門鎖太好被開了所以我就進來了那這一些過程裡面"},{"start":9634.642,"end":9659.756,"text":"立法委員對於議事人員以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防沒有問題嘛大家都揹官揹大嘛你要跟我攻防我跟你攻防但是都屬於立委跟立委之間可是在這一屆是立委直接去打或是去挑戰去攻擊議事人員那到目前為止我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來有任何的案件幫議事人員討回公道嗎"},{"start":9661.022,"end":9661.282,"text":"好來重點來了"},{"start":9681.094,"end":9698.681,"text":"議事人員他敢 比較抱歉 我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀但是議事人員面對到立法委員的一個攻擊甚至之前我就講 有助衛警很可憐 在門口被搶帽子然後被打 然後被叫囂"},{"start":9700.542,"end":9721.499,"text":"結果那駐衛警他敢去提出申訴針對立法委員嗎那到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性他又要被針對性那到最後不了了之所以今天雖然說有法令的規定但是如果說我們的議事處我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話你還要請他自己去申訴"},{"start":9722.66,"end":9750.574,"text":"你不就是請鬼找要單嗎副秘書長你可以同意如果說今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣子的攻擊嗎當然是不行啦是那我們怎麼樣幫他們來主持公道我剛講這一些有議事人員被攻擊手上資料秘書長被搶資料那我們有沒有提出任何的"},{"start":9751.294,"end":9752.195,"text":"議事人員的公平正義勒?"},{"start":9764.859,"end":9792.967,"text":"基本上這個國會的場域裡頭我們是充分尊重我們國會之律還有委員的程序權那至於說 副秘書長 不不不請容許我指證你國會的場域是委員跟委員之間委員跟委員之間你說議事工房我今天我進廚房不怕熱我進議事工房裡面我覺得說立法委員跟立法委員之間我們要怎麼議事工房合理的範圍內我們互相"},{"start":9794.841,"end":9811.51,"text":"這個摩高一尺道高一丈但是議事人員不能被波及啊我今天講的是說過去十幾屆來我們這第11屆嘛過去十屆來也有相關衝突但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間那個是議事攻防可是今天是我們看到說當有"},{"start":9812.751,"end":9827.245,"text":"執政黨的委員他認為說他人數不夠然後打不贏的時候他去挑意識人員下手把意識人員手上的資料給搶走把意識人員的這個資料給拿走甚至就破壞門窗那這樣怎麼會算是意識攻防勒"},{"start":9829.915,"end":9845.188,"text":"我補充報告一下當委員所關心的部分其實我們都有在做也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁立法院的所有的員工都維護到他的一個職場最好的工作環境"},{"start":9845.828,"end":9875.135,"text":"所以比如說我們也去研議了會議室的一個使用規則我們也去研議了相關的這個內規我們正在調整正在修改我問一個比較明確的啦我們現在這每一個委員會的門啊有執政黨委員直接就講啊太好破壞了他不用技巧不用工具他只要簡單的這樣轉一轉扭一扭他就可以他說他沒有破壞殼就打開了"},{"start":9877.119,"end":9901.333,"text":"這個部分我們已經做好了 委員可以看一下旁邊這個門 這個是喇叭鎖 旁邊上下有那個窗這不是 我跟你講A你要不要答B 這個是內部鎖起來但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來 一定就只有喇叭鎖 那喇叭鎖是不是容易就變成是說 有任何人他只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來"},{"start":9902.765,"end":9908.568,"text":"那這個要不要加強我們從上一次有這個所謂的開鎖盜賊凌晨4點來開鎖然後還洋洋得意那這一次也是兩個禮拜前嘛內政委員會啊也是一樣啊"},{"start":9921.255,"end":9936.894,"text":"本席相對來講都是早一點來啊我6點多我就到交易文化委員會我搜索委員會去簽到我那時候6點多一到的時候我看到內政委員會201裡面已經都是人啊開門啊那不是議事聯盟幫忙開的嘛那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖嘛"},{"start":9938.12,"end":9965.151,"text":"那我的意思是說今天不管任何人你開鎖就是破壞議事規則那他還會告誡你他還會怪罪你說是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開所以我開鎖不是我的問題啊所以我現在強調的是說今天任何人可以這樣輕易的開鎖我們是不是應該要加強我們的立法院的這個門鎖是我們已經有加強了就像剛剛委員所說的我們另外有留一個門那個門不是只有喇叭鎖我們另外安裝了另外一個鎖所以那邊是兩道鎖"},{"start":9966.932,"end":9988.214,"text":"不會被再破壞了?應該不會啦有沒有做過壓力測試?目前沒有啦不是,副秘書長雖然輕鬆啊但是我輕鬆不放鬆啊我要的是什麼?要的是立法院你們是行政人員"},{"start":9989.639,"end":10016.216,"text":"多數少數一回事立委跟立委之間是民意的展現但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作正常運作就請從尊重保護捍衛議事人員的權益以及捍衛我們的開會場域開始做起如果說未來還有這樣的狀況的話很抱歉喔預算不給通過就是預算不合理的地方我們一樣會把它刪除喔"},{"start":10017.771,"end":10018.672,"text":"我們一直朝這個方向在努力 謝謝"},{"start":10040.964,"end":10058.869,"text":"北檢之前曾經發生過一件就是有民眾跑進去然後跑到頂樓去偷換他們的國旗換成民進黨黨旗這些事你們可以去參考一下就是說後來他被起訴所適用的條文那我的意思是說其實我們這裡晚上如果因為這個這個"},{"start":10061.328,"end":10088.57,"text":"立委不是這個機關的所有權人也不是這個機關場所的管理權人立委是借用這個場域在開會的人那如果夜間跑進來說這個沒有違法還是說我根本沒有違法我是立委那這個我在法律上我是完全不認同所以你們可以去參考我說的那個案子其實客觀事實的構成條件是一模一樣那如果說這我以前如果在處理案子的時候遇到這個狀況"},{"start":10090.071,"end":10110.113,"text":"我不是說立法院 我說如果機關有民眾夜間開門爬進去 翻牆爬進去 其實在法律上會構成犯罪那如果說今天以相同事實 立法院只是借用這個場域來開會他不是對這個場域有管理的權限 那可以說我自己晚上"},{"start":10111.155,"end":10139.487,"text":"我自己晚上開門進來這樣子合法嗎那如果公務員知悉有犯罪而不主動提出告發這樣對嗎所以我對這個事我還是蠻有意見但過去我不是要去追究哪一位立委或過去的事情我只是說如果這樣我們大家是不是把這個東西法律上依據為何我們講清楚從我們講清楚那天開始大家都不要犯這個事情就好我不是請你們去追究過去某一位立委某幾位立委他們的"},{"start":10140.407,"end":10144.75,"text":"下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員接下來我們請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":10178.771,"end":10179.715,"text":"麻煩請複密,議事處處長委員好"},{"start":10185.564,"end":10211.621,"text":"副委員請教一下昨天晚上南韓宣布戒嚴後來民進黨有發一個社群的貼文非常肯定南韓戒嚴這件事情就是說那次尹錫悅為了要守護自由憲政體制然後下面就開始罵立法院前面在罵藍白這是他們的觀點我們當然不認同但後面一句講到藍白我就很好奇他說藍白百般刁難王逸川就職"},{"start":10212.902,"end":10241.057,"text":"我很想請教一下王逸川就職的時候藍白立委有哪一位是在現場嗎這個是這個不知道是立法院哪一個單位辦的就職 王逸川就職典禮人事處辦的人事處喔那不明知道狀況嗎你有在現場嗎我有陪大法官到那邊見那請問一下藍白誰百般刁難王逸川就職阿在現場的應該都是我們民進黨的委員沒有藍白喔那你有感覺到藍白有在刁難嗎"},{"start":10243.591,"end":10247.157,"text":"人事處有覺得藍白有刁難王一川就職嗎?"},{"start":10249.503,"end":10276.094,"text":"報告委員我們都是依照時間跟程序跟法規來辦理沒有有看有還是沒有沒有嗎所以為什麼民進黨要造謠啊我我我都連南韓戒嚴這件事情民進黨都可以發文造謠這個造謠黨也太誇張了那我想另問另外一件事情南韓昨天戒嚴之後啊後來解嚴的原因我相信大家昨天都有看到嗎就是他們的國會議員爬到立呃爬到他們的那個立議場裡面去後來表決好讓這個"},{"start":10277.995,"end":10302.643,"text":"就是解嚴了我萬一你看民進黨現在這麼肯定南韓戒嚴這件事情昨天很多民進黨支持者也在網路上講對啦台灣就要戒嚴啦藍白就在亂啦就是要戒嚴了哇我們現在很擔心會不會民進黨真的宣布戒嚴那現在假設民進黨戒嚴的話因為我們按我看到我們憲法是有一條是說立法院必要時得得議請總統戒嚴"},{"start":10304.304,"end":10313.454,"text":"假設同樣的狀況發生在臺灣可能總統軍隊包圍然後我們立法委員這樣爬進來我不知道說這個議事要怎麼處理這個議事大概會怎麼處理如果發生在我們臺灣的狀況的話"},{"start":10320.741,"end":10339.43,"text":"委員報告我們院會有固定的院會時間但是如果有這種緊急狀況的話當然會透過朝野或是由院長來請大家在針對這種情形來看是不是要你是說如果有緊急狀況大家要先爬進來嗎這個是分事實跟意識程序如果是事實部分的話"},{"start":10340.58,"end":10362.646,"text":"就是本來開會的時候委員從我們的立法院這樣解釋我們這個模擬一下因為昨天民進黨很肯定南韓戒嚴這個事我們是擔心說他們會不會比照辦理假設發生這個狀況依照我們憲法立法院是可以決議以請總統解嚴那假設我們要進行這樣的一個決議程序上是怎樣在意識上處理上是怎樣"},{"start":10363.922,"end":10385.343,"text":"如果說依照戒嚴法如果說總統與情勢緊急時經過行政院陳請他宣告的戒嚴可是他必須在一個月內提交我們立法院的罪認對對就罪認但是我講的是戒嚴的狀況戒嚴是憲法規定的對立法院可以得以移情他說對對對那就是在那麼緊急的狀況那我們要怎麼去進行這個程序"},{"start":10385.885,"end":10403.8,"text":"當然就是召集委員會之後有人提案然後立刻處理那就是還是要先爬進來嘛對不對如果一樣的狀況先集合開會嘛就是先大家先進到議場裡面嘛先組法定人數組法定人數會議是合法然後有人提案就處理這個那可以臨時召開嘛對不對"},{"start":10404.804,"end":10405.004,"text":"還要先溝通喔"},{"start":10420.2,"end":10439.745,"text":"因為這個沒有發生過我看到每一次那個草野協商都是大家就是扯東扯西扯一些程序東西就會讓這個會議沒辦法進行啊那這麼緊急的情況之下還是有可能面臨這個狀況嘛就是扯東扯西然後院長召開草野協商然後最後這個會開不成那開不成就沒有辦法做成解嚴的決議"},{"start":10440.845,"end":10467.035,"text":"是這個意思這種是屬於憲政上重大的事情到時候如果聽取各黨團意見之後院長還是本於他這個立法院他會去做相關的處理所以他可以聽完大家意見之後他可以決定說那我們現在開院會來決定是不是要通過這個解嚴的決議案然後移給總統是這個意思嗎如果是在會期中當然立法院就在運作如果修會的話依照憲法規定他有所謂臨時會的問題"},{"start":10469.216,"end":10491.521,"text":"還有臨時會的問題?那臨時會的問題要怎麼解?臨時會依照憲法的規定,因為四分之一委員有提議,我們就要開臨時會。就是要先開臨時會,然後再進到院會。因為我說是在協會期間,如果總統有宣布戒嚴,送這個案子來,但是依照法律規定來,我們必要就要開追認的會議。那這樣聽起來感覺好像我們沒辦法,像昨天那個男孩動作這麼快,可能就要戒嚴一段時間,聽起來?"},{"start":10494.35,"end":10502.134,"text":"緊急集會然後去通過一個解除戒嚴的道理瞭解我順便再問一個再一個問題請問一下那個現在韓院長有出訪計劃嗎你要問那個是不是要問那個國際處這個我比較不知道國際事務處"},{"start":10514.195,"end":10536.696,"text":"有沒有接到什麼消息是韓院長要去美國參加慶賀團有嗎?這一部分我們還在等這個總統府跟立法院外交部的通知所以都還沒有是不是?目前還沒有那如果假設啦假設我問一下如果說韓院長是當這個慶賀團代表因為過去都是立法院院長嘛不知道這次是不是啦如果是韓院長的話那立法院會有多少人陪同?"},{"start":10538.533,"end":10553.584,"text":"這一部分可能到時候也要由我們這個社會機構外交部跟駐美代表處跟美方溝通有場決定這個但這邊您這邊一定會接到通知嗎對不對然後到時候再派人嗎那目前是都還沒有接到通知"},{"start":10554.104,"end":10554.604,"text":"對 這幾天可能還在等待"},{"start":10581.254,"end":10583.896,"text":"張祺凱委員賴世寶委員蘇清泉委員高金素梅委員吳志堯委員"},{"start":10613.669,"end":10613.689,"text":"張復蜜"},{"start":10632.99,"end":10652.641,"text":"那今天的主題我想先主要做幾個回應第一個立法院對於破壞議場議事的任何的開會不管是空間或是所有的我們提供的軟硬體硬體部分該查該辦就要公平"},{"start":10654.072,"end":10677.26,"text":"過去基於議事攻防那對於立法院的公務造成很多的破壞這不是只有某一黨不是只有民進黨大家在激烈的議事攻防上各黨都有所以說要處理我非常同意我們都希望大家能夠規規矩矩的然後都能夠循議事規則能夠好好來開會"},{"start":10679.22,"end":10701.852,"text":"但是也要呼籲所有的議案都要遵循民主的原則如果有些排案的委員或者是做出非常多高度爭議性的政治性的法案那當然會有比較高的議事攻防但是大家要一視同仁立法院處理各個黨都要一致您同意吧同意"},{"start":10704.028,"end":10722.253,"text":"那第二個我也要澄清一下在自由民主的臺灣不會有任何一個政黨要主張讓臺灣走回頭路臺灣不可能走回戒嚴沒有任何一個政黨去肯定戒嚴這件事臺灣從1949到198738年的戒嚴時間造成人民莫大的"},{"start":10728.695,"end":10746.222,"text":"迫害傷害這些都是發生在這片土地上讓國人非常傷痛苦痛的歷史記憶沒有人可以也沒有人應該重蹈覆轍民主進步黨更不可能"},{"start":10747.402,"end":10767.168,"text":"過去在這片土地上宣告戒嚴的政黨是中國國民黨民進黨是站在反抗推翻威權的一方所以如果有立委繼續帶風向說民進黨在肯定戒嚴這件事這才是不折不扣的造謠"},{"start":10770.21,"end":10781.199,"text":"審議立法院預算立法院今年度的預算最初是36億當中最大宗是在議事行政的支持佔54.38%20億左右"},{"start":10785.402,"end":10807.339,"text":"那對於委員問政的相關support也有15億543萬的編列比例是4成大概是這樣子所以說立法院的預算用在支持委員的優質問政以及讓我們的議事支持的系統能夠非常穩健的進行這是我們花這筆預算最重要的地方"},{"start":10809.164,"end":10834.421,"text":"我現在要就教於您現在立法院有個亂象越來越多的調查委員會雨後春筍我們的人力物力怎麼來因應下一頁首先我想問一下在我們113宪判9之後針對國會調查權回應在立法院職權行使法第8章調查權之行使多數的條文是被大法官宣告違憲的"},{"start":10836.022,"end":10863.687,"text":"所以立法院現在當務之急針對部分多部分是違憲少部分合憲的條文使用上會產生前後矛盾或競合的問題立法院應當優先針對立法院職權行使法來好好的來修訂讓立法院的調查權成為一個強大的武器成為一整套非常精良的裝備"},{"start":10866.088,"end":10890.145,"text":"這應當是我們該做的事情吧是那請問因為我們百分之五十四點三八的預算用在議事行政支持也百分之四十用在委員問政的優化協力那麼我們的法治局相關有關立法政策法律案及預算案等等之研究要進行分析評估諮詢公委員審查之參考"},{"start":10893.407,"end":10910.622,"text":"這個部分也是我們支應預算我們該做的事那我們的法治局有沒有要針對立法院職權行使法修憲之後所謂的讓國會改革真正的成為權責相符的改革方案我們啟動了什麼樣的修法分析研議"},{"start":10917.756,"end":10918.937,"text":"在法制局做了哪些研究分析?怎麼樣來補正修法?"},{"start":10946.198,"end":10951.33,"text":"我們內部的有做相關的針對第9 憲判是第9號有關他"},{"start":10954.687,"end":10976.218,"text":"大陸灣的審查標的違憲或部分違憲總共有18條好 那我們做了哪些的研析你說的這些我當然都了解那我們有做一個那個針對因為這次憲判是第9號是很特別的他針對每一個項 項下的每一個都繫到那個條文的文字裡面"},{"start":10976.958,"end":10997.265,"text":"所以我願意給時間啊你們要好好來做研析分析啊結束修法的建議啊那我們的修法建議也只能提供那個修法的建議事後我們再把有再進行嘛那大概多久時間可以更因為您說這一次的先辦解釋確實很特別因為整套的違憲實在太多啊"},{"start":10997.865,"end":11004.147,"text":"眾嘉賓委員已經有要求我們一個月之內我們會提供給司法及法制委員會我們也希望趕快提供給立法院的各黨團我們來針對未來讓國會真改革的法案能夠修得更好為了讓我們以後的調查權的行使有名"},{"start":11021.992,"end":11026.573,"text":"因為在這一個修憲之後的職權行使法有關調查權的行使的法規都沒有健全所以現在使用的這個工具會卡卡的"},{"start":11044.799,"end":11064.32,"text":"你不曉得要適用這個條文前面合憲後面違憲所以現在立法院又面對了如雨後春筍的調查委員會的成立比如說我們那天已經正式召開會議的國發基金不當投資這件事情的調查委員會也已經選舉出黃國昌召委"},{"start":11068.023,"end":11083.813,"text":"當然民進黨認為當天的選舉是無效的組成是不公的調查的範圍是不明確的而且明確的侵犯了其他憲法機關的權利把手伸到司法調查權的案件也把手伸到監察院調查權的案子這個是我們對於這一個國發基金不當投資調查委員會的立場好下一個"},{"start":11090.817,"end":11095.202,"text":"那未來呢現在在協商的還有部會首場財產申報調查委員會他同樣的問題一樣立法院立法權又把手伸到監察權裡頭了因為財產申報的主管機關是監察院"},{"start":11107.657,"end":11132.154,"text":"那部會首長的範圍到底到哪裡如果廣義的部會首長狹義的才是立行政院的部會首長喔如果廣義的所有的行政機關的首長其實也包括我們的各院院長喔所以範圍不明確然後又侵犯了權力分立的原則但是可能這個案子"},{"start":11133.666,"end":11159.984,"text":"在野黨委員透過表決他還是會成立的我要說這是違憲的調查委員會在下一個還有一個呢就是勞動部的這個霸凌調查委員會我們都非常支持霸凌案嚴查徹查現在行政調查已在進行全案行政院主院長也宣誓全案已經移送檢調調查換言之這個案子也在司法偵查當中國會的調查權有國會優惠的這種"},{"start":11164.427,"end":11191.849,"text":"權利嗎?立法院再大都不能夠跌床架屋把手伸到其他院紀機關的職權行使裡頭但是這個案子很遺憾應當透過表決它還是會成立的民進黨非常支持所有霸凌的不管專案報告要在委員會的專案報告或是院會的專案報告我們都願意該進行我們對於霸凌的整個機制的建立我們非常的在乎從制度面去解決"},{"start":11193.844,"end":11201.371,"text":"現在這個時候未還委員會正在進行勞動部新任部長紅生漢對於這整個霸凌案的報告"},{"start":11203.339,"end":11228.944,"text":"在下一頁最新的是昨天程旭文會在野黨又提案了要針對青鳥期間那那個時候身份不是立委那時候是政論節目的來賓王逸川他所提的一段言論然後又被在野黨無限延伸說是不是執政黨王逸川有辦法把手伸到通訊自由去非法監控國人"},{"start":11230.324,"end":11257.713,"text":"這該澄清都澄清過了但是還是有在業黨委員要成立調查委員會我要就教於您的是越來越多的調查委員會每一個都是特種委員會以後可能比我們8個常設委員會還多請問我們的人力物力你們怎麼來分派我們的所有的議事人員然後支出面要怎麼來因應調整"},{"start":11260.402,"end":11278.397,"text":"謝謝委員關心,我想國會的議事人員他的目的就是支援我們國會的議事程序的一個順利的一個進行所以在這個委員如果有共識或是大家有意覺的一個情況底下我們絕對是全力來配合"},{"start":11278.897,"end":11295.172,"text":"我們現在編列的預算就是我剛說的有20億這是議事行政的支持占了我們總預算的五成四但是這是在一個常態的狀況之下就是我們的常設委員會跟譬如說紀律委員會這些其他的委員會都可以研判"},{"start":11296.313,"end":11309.022,"text":"規定的立法院該有的大概都在這個預算裡頭除非你高編很多幅編很多才足以去因應未來可能有10個20個5個10個我不知道數量多少的各式各樣的調查委員會又如同我剛剛說的國發基金不當調查的委員會因為範圍太廣國發基金的投資案超過千案捏提案的委員並沒有辦法說明他要查哪一案"},{"start":11324.093,"end":11341.811,"text":"所以我們所有議事委員要投入的案子有多少上千案喔另外所有的部會首長的財產申報調查委員會如果不幸也成立了所有的部會首長到底擴及哪些廣義來講立法院院長也是首長之一喔"},{"start":11342.432,"end":11359.695,"text":"是不是您在點頭也可能韓國瑜院長的財產申報也是在野黨委員說要成立調查的標的如果這樣包山包海你的預算有辦法支應嗎那請問你要從哪一個委員會來調你國發基金的議事人員是誰來擔綱哪一個委員會的議事人員來擔綱所以你們每一個委員會都是都是臨時編組嗎"},{"start":11370.99,"end":11386.438,"text":"是不是還是國發基金可能是經濟委員會那個是參事室的兩位參事兩位參事我們參事室有幾位參事目前四位四位參事那現在已經有四個委員會會成立了你四位參事怎麼來輪他們會不會過牢而且每一個委員會的這個調查標的是這幾位參事的專業上能夠支持因應的嗎"},{"start":11397.756,"end":11400.058,"text":"我希望所有的調查委員會都是合憲合規的運作要調查就要有精良的武器"},{"start":11424.958,"end":11442.815,"text":"所以我剛剛說該修法把立法院職權刑事法有關於調查權該如何給我們一個最清楚的依循這個要先做到未來成立的任何調查委員會依循一套清清楚楚的遊戲規則民進黨版的國會改革方案立法院職權刑事法也有調查權"},{"start":11443.976,"end":11465.631,"text":"民進黨不反對國會調查權但是依憲法的精神國會的調查權有其界限不能侵犯其他憲法機關的核心領域不得侵犯監察院的不得深入司法權但是現在非常遺憾立法院已經是一個什麼該成立想查什麼就查什麼請你們及早因應我會在審議預算的時候因為你們現在編的54%用在議事的支持"},{"start":11471.536,"end":11490.465,"text":"除非你服邊很多啦要不然你現在成立現在已經4個調查委員會我跟你打包票未來可能越來越多怎麼去調派人力調派人力不是只有人去支援就好還有專業相輔調查的案件光國發基金的案上千個議案你怎麼調查"},{"start":11493.871,"end":11519.04,"text":"你們的人力物力要專業的行使調查權就要有精良的武器你們的預算足夠嗎?我們的人力足夠嗎?我們的專業足夠嗎?我不希望因為這樣而造成我們議事人員的過勞造成大家或者是勞役不均這也是我要非常利用審議預算的時候我們馬上會面對了你們可不可以一個月內"},{"start":11520.18,"end":11542.411,"text":"其實也不用一個月內可能半個月內針對因為審預算就要了提出針對這麼多雨後春筍的調查委員會你們的預算如何指引人力如何調派專業如何支持提上一個報告給司法法制委員會好嗎好謝謝謝謝辛苦了謝謝吳委員那個法治局長還有那個複密麻煩"},{"start":11544.093,"end":11560.205,"text":"麻煩留步一下,就是說因為剛剛那個洪孟凱委員有提到這個部分那我想說我還是因為大家都已經質詢完畢了那我還是仔細說明一下就我國刑法306條對於無故侵入他人住宅以及建築物本來就有法律的規範"},{"start":11561.866,"end":11586.763,"text":"那對於公家機關呢夜間管制的區域民眾是不得侵入的那這個民眾當然也包括立法委員他在非上班時間在立法院管制區管制的區域內他也是不得無故侵入我想說這在法律上面應該是沒有問題所以之前有委員他們用打破窗戶或者是偷開門進入"},{"start":11591.053,"end":11604.873,"text":"不管任何政黨這個部分他在管制的期間內他如果用打破窗戶跟偷開門進入管制區域這個在法律上面叫做犯罪"},{"start":11605.834,"end":11635.029,"text":"只是說他是306條是屬於告訴哪一論之罪那我再補充一下我國刑事訴訟法241條對於非屬偵查機關的公務員也就是你我而且你們是非屬偵查機關的公務員他如果在執行職務的時候發現犯罪他應該予以告發雖然告發跟告訴哪一論之罪他還是有一定的差距但是可以看得出來我國的法制對於公務員在執行職務的時候發現有犯罪的話你本來就會有一個"},{"start":11635.649,"end":11647.509,"text":"告發的義務所以雖然清楚還是屬於告訴乃論那我也想請你們能夠去了解一下這個狀況以及目前我國其實有非常多的判決"},{"start":11649.332,"end":11678.291,"text":"他就是針對民眾在非上班時間他進入管制那公家機關他侵入管制區域那以立法院這邊為例好了立法委員在夜間要進出立法院這個是沒有問題的注意警員會讓他進來那以本棟大本棟樓為例你如果今天是進入到樓梯間也是沒有問題因為樓梯間並沒有管制可是包括院會的議場以及各委員會的開會場所晚上是會鎖門的"},{"start":11679.492,"end":11703.657,"text":"所以如果立法委員在管制期間也就是非開門進行委員會的期間他想要進入到我們的會場裡面他必須透過議事人員立法院的人員同意而且開門讓他進來才可以他不能夠用打破窗戶或偷開門的小偷模式來進入這邊那這樣進來的話他就是違反刑法306條"},{"start":11705.297,"end":11717.857,"text":"這明顯你立法院就是帶頭違法犯罪我想我剛剛就法制部分我分析得很清楚如果我的法律見解有錯誤的話法制局長也可以反駁我的說法法制局長你的想法呢?"},{"start":11719.249,"end":11744.817,"text":"那跟委員報告齁剛剛趙委員講的是完全正確沒有問題可是當這個侵入住宅的這個法醫被侵犯之後誰那個提出告訴的人那個告訴的人應該就是在這個機關就是我們院長那到時候應該是由院長看他是不是要同意當"},{"start":11745.897,"end":11762.42,"text":"這沒問題齁 這個我覺得非常多判決都如此 因為告訴哪一案之罪還是要有告訴權能才能夠提告 所以我剛剛有說過 行訴法241條的告發公務員的職權告發他是在告發案件 並不是在告訴哪一案件 所以"},{"start":11763.822,"end":11791.302,"text":"確實由院長來決定但是是不是能夠麻煩你們能夠公告收支給所有的立委在夜間你用這種非法的方式入侵其實會構成犯罪而且也會有被院長提告的風險我想過去的委員都完全漠視法律的規定動不動打破窗戶進到院會或進到委員會那這個也會造成危險他打破窗戶之前我記得有人就是被割到韌帶"},{"start":11793.055,"end":11816.312,"text":"前兩屆的事情那我希望說我們是不是有機會能夠把基本這種法律概念告訴這些立法委員請他們了解基本的法律概念那如果立法院帶頭做違法的事情我想全國人民應該會覺得這很荒謬吧所以我的意思不是說去追究任何人而且我也覺得過去的事情"},{"start":11817.426,"end":11837.263,"text":"我也不會想要回過頭去追究任何一個人或任何一個政黨那我比較希望就是說我們把這個道理至少能夠讓各位委員知道那讓大家不要說晚上還要躲在茶水間或幹什麼其實這都是這在我以前的觀念裡面這都是蕭曉在做的事情為什麼會是一個國會立委在做的事所以當然啦他們可能"},{"start":11838.004,"end":11853.198,"text":"不懂這個是犯罪那所以說是不是麻煩你們能夠告訴所有的立委這個可能會構成犯罪因為萬一有一天如果韓院長真的覺得那他必須整頓這個風氣他提告了那就告訴男子隊在發生後6個月內都可以到啊"},{"start":11853.899,"end":11870.93,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11870.93,"end":11873.291,"text":"我希望這麼做一切依法也是不希望立法院的議事人員去承擔這個責任"},{"start":11891.061,"end":11911.703,"text":"否則他晚上要衝進來你攔也不是不攔也不是那不如我們就依法來做我們法治國家嘛我每次都希望大家能夠依法處理但是好像大家都不把我國法治以及意識規則當一回事啊我這邊主持七八個月的感覺好那謝謝非常謝謝複密以及非常謝謝法治局局長"},{"start":11913.331,"end":11930.848,"text":"今天所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢,那詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或書面答覆者請相關機關請述送交個別委員及本會委員謝龍介所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆討論事項報告事項及詢答完畢"},{"start":11938.649,"end":11963.527,"text":"做以下決議令定期繼續審查審查會委員針對本次議程所列討論事項之預算提案請於12月10日今年的12月10日星期二中午12時前送交本會預時不予受領本次會議進行到此結束現在休息謝謝大家現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}