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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1746.698,"end":1747.21,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1917.81,"end":1918.093,"text":"先開始"},{"start":1919.775,"end":1924.597,"text":"好 那我們現在開始協商會議該到的委員各黨團的代表請對這個法案有興趣的委員請大家紛紛到場那我們現在開始協商會議那本日協商是關於我們本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員會蔡易餘等19人擬具運動產業發展條例第26條之二條文修正草案等五案"},{"start":1950.204,"end":1953.126,"text":"還有經院會晉赴二讀與相關提案並按協商之委員洪孟凱等19人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二還有第七條之三的條文草案"},{"start":1980.144,"end":1981.705,"text":"陳培瑜委員、張雅琳委員與會機關代表張廖次長、鄭署長、法務部汪南君"},{"start":1996.414,"end":1997.075,"text":"副委員副委員副委員"},{"start":2018.571,"end":2026.897,"text":"還有淨富二讀提案的關係文書還有與會委員如果有修正動議或者是機關有建議內容請提出書面印發現場來進行討論還有要特別報告因為蔡易餘委員在第一會期第二十二次會議的提案撤回"},{"start":2035.683,"end":2037.245,"text":"蔡易餘提案撤回經院會同意不納入本次協商討論目前為止所印的有關蔡易餘部分是空白的"},{"start":2051.923,"end":2067.456,"text":"先請大家的記憶一下我們的審查會於113年7月11日我們審查完畢之後我們的審查結果還有保留增訂七之二就是我們今天要討論的重點七之二跟增訂七之三還有附帶決議議案並決議院會討論前交由我們黨團協商那我們先依條文的順序討論保留的條文最後我們再討留附帶決議好"},{"start":2077.865,"end":2097.353,"text":"那這樣我就先報告到這邊那我們就針對七之二的部分我們先請這些提案的委員來先做一些的說明好不好然後委員發言之後我們就再請教育部體育署再來做相關的一些詢問答喔 好不好那七之二的部分大家先看一下"},{"start":2099.48,"end":2099.76,"text":"第七條之二為健全職業與業與運動業之發展"},{"start":2119.173,"end":2122.396,"text":"主要主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員工會成立運動員工會成立好不好這是他們這個我們提案的版本那有人對於這樣的提案七之二有沒有想法好陳培瑜委員"},{"start":2138.101,"end":2159.448,"text":"好 謝謝主席我的版本裡面是把公會後面再加上或團體那主要是因為運動團體不會只是有公會的型態那像日本他們就有協會所以如果假設在未來在台灣有各式各樣運動團體的成立我認為也要納入這樣那我的版本裡面第二項我同時提到就前項運動員工會的團體相關的承認輔導業務基本人事費團體協約的講注我希望還是由中央主管機關訂定相關辦法好 謝謝"},{"start":2169.877,"end":2193.485,"text":"就是將你原來刪除的團體你這次又把它重新認為還是把它納入會比較好一點就對了是不是來沒關係來還有沒有來麥克風好國差委員那個七之二的部分吼今天我們的主管機關第一項的部分我相信大家應該沒有什麼太大的"},{"start":2196.011,"end":2206.023,"text":"反對的意見不過我要附和一下陳培瑜委員剛剛所提出來的那兩點的意見因為我必須要說"},{"start":2207.372,"end":2219.025,"text":"我們這次在討論這個條例甚至包括機制和增訂本身其實真正希望的是能夠保護、保障這些運動員以及這些運動員他們團結起來以後的權利因此我們黨團在處理這件事情的時候"},{"start":2227.079,"end":2242.371,"text":"我們會特別的重視目前運動員他們所已經成立的工會或是團體所提出來的意見以及建議那到目前為止我們所收到現在相關的運動員"},{"start":2243.692,"end":2268.38,"text":"他們所成立的工會或是團體他們基本上所表達的訴求其實跟剛剛陳培瑜委員所講的內容是相互一致的第一個就除了工會以外是不是應該再增加這個團體的型態其實因為好像沒有什麼法律上面必要的理由只限於工會這種型態其他團體、協會的型態"},{"start":2270.265,"end":2270.625,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":2285.336,"end":2301.538,"text":"他們成立這件事情某個程度上面來講對於運動員而言就是說這到底是一個看得到吃不到還是看得到也吃得到而且現實上面可以產生具體法律效果的條文也是他們很關切的"},{"start":2302.259,"end":2324.966,"text":"那也正是因為這個樣子所以他們才會提議說就運動員工會或團體的承認、輔導、業務費用與團體協約簽訂的獎補助及其他相關辦法由中央主管機關定制那事實上如果說我們對於這一些團體在第一項所謂的輔導"},{"start":2326.746,"end":2343.661,"text":"這個抽象的名詞之外在第二項在法律的層次上面針對於有關主管機關藉由法律的授權給主管機關定相當的辦法那等於是立法者我們簽了一張授權的支票給行政機關"},{"start":2344.882,"end":2364.538,"text":"讓行政機關在訂這些相關執法的時候有法律可以做清楚的依循那它所產生的法律效力也會提升到有關於法律授權命令這樣子的層次那對於主管機關其實相關事務的處理"},{"start":2365.198,"end":2394.478,"text":"其實我相信我們機關的次長也好署長也好應該可以很清楚的知道說當立法者願意授權做這樣的授權的時候其實具體的辦法還是交給你們來加以訂定所以我是想說是不是我們行政部門的這一邊也可以能夠去理解或是感受到這些運動員工會他們所提出來的訴求跟需求予以統一以上"},{"start":2395.458,"end":2418.866,"text":"好謝謝還有沒有好張雅琳委員我們一併發言完畢再請我們的教育部回應好因為我自己想要做個提醒就是說因為如果我們今天出了這個人事費跟業務費會不會又違反國家中立的原則這是第一個部分第二個就是說因為在食物上面其實我們在其他的團體上面我們並沒有類似的做法這件這樣子的條文其實我覺得有點太"},{"start":2423.408,"end":2435.964,"text":"我們如果有這樣的條文的話我覺得在其他的未來跟其他團體上面我們相關的工會要成立的時候會不會有類似的問題再來就是說我們是不是可以讓這個運動員的工會直接回到勞工主管機關的工位業務系統裡面讓他來一併處理"},{"start":2443.4,"end":2455.654,"text":"有所有的公會的團體通用的一個原則但是有體育署如果我們擔心到運動員成立公會有點困難我們是不是可以有提供一些專款來讓他們做使用去補助這樣子 謝謝林益謹委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2462.958,"end":2488.425,"text":"我認為運動產業它真的有它的特殊性所以主管機關真的是要積極來協助建立友善的勞動環境那我們用中職棒球來當例子你看每個職業棒球員他們的職業生涯其實都很短暫所以他們如果要跟雇主談判爭取權益就要付出更多的成本所以健全的工會真的需要主管機關來協力"},{"start":2490.566,"end":2515.083,"text":"不然其實要兼顧一些本身的權益其實很難那可是政府跟工會之間的關係我覺得還是要審慎思考因為之前我們在審議法條的時候我就有提到說因為工會的人事費跟業務費用如果是中央來提供這個資金恐怕會有干涉工會獨立性的這個疑慮所以工會原先的自主運作可能就會被政府左右"},{"start":2515.823,"end":2521.511,"text":"若由政府補助人事費,其他工會都要比照辦理,嚴重影響現行工會體制。"},{"start":2534.354,"end":2534.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":2564.054,"end":2580.309,"text":"好吧 我們先請體育署先發表一下吧好 報告委員 那我們這邊第七條字二的後面我們也是同意 贊同就是運動員工會或運動員團體成立的字眼 這個OK那至於所以或團體這兩個字加進去欸 你要不要先改一下好不好或運動員團體運動員團體 好"},{"start":2585.958,"end":2610.006,"text":"運動員工會或團體啊因為他前面已經名詞就是這樣嘛對或團體成立好所以可以把團體再把它放進來最後項的部分是不是我們就是比較贊同詹雅琳委員的剛剛的說法是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來進行我們建議用附帶等一下那個"},{"start":2612.052,"end":2619.576,"text":"條文上面是把團體放進去但是我們要更像剛郭昌偉人所提到的部分是用附帶決議的方法來做一個處理培育委那我們等看看你們的附帶決議沒有充分不過附帶決議跟整個的立法的意旨它還是有一段的距離啦我個人覺得啦好 郭昌偉人"},{"start":2633.8,"end":2662.505,"text":"沒有因為老實講就是立法完了以後他所做的附帶決議實際上面法律上面的效力本身恐怕是大家會很疑慮的問題那至於說剛剛所提到的有一些人事費是不是要補助的這件事情這個我們其實在立法上面可以尊重"},{"start":2663.385,"end":2677.782,"text":"主管機關的決定但是我們當要去落實所謂去輔導這一些工會或者是團體的時候如果有一個法律明確授權的依據"},{"start":2679.003,"end":2704.019,"text":"讓中央主管機關去訂一個辦法的話那我剛剛講的重點是它其實是有法律的授權命令在法律上面未接的效力因為這個條次的本身的增加事實上是在授權行政機關去做並沒有強迫行政機關那個辦法要訂成什麼樣子"},{"start":2705.592,"end":2723.445,"text":"沒有具體的說說你們那個辦法一定要定成什麼樣子那只是這些目前存在的運動員的工會他們會希望說就他們的承認輔導費用那費用的範圍你們如果覺得用人的費用不妥的話"},{"start":2724.105,"end":2747.536,"text":"那你們可以就它實際上面營運的部分給它一些獎補助當我們是用獎補助來定位的時候那個就不是一個法定費用支出的義務那個就不是一個法定費用支出的義務就沒有課給政府這樣的義務但是某個程度上你換另外一個角度講是讓主管機關"},{"start":2748.777,"end":2758.57,"text":"有這樣法律的授權當作依靠的時候你們在實際業務的推廣上面在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的範圍內對於這些團體他們所謂的輔導"},{"start":2763.837,"end":2791.994,"text":"你願意透過什麼樣子的形式給他補助這件事情如果有法規授權的依據的話其實我是建議主管機關可以再審慎的考慮一下其實對你們來講真的是一件比較好的事情這部分我們也是沒有我們尊重那不過最後在決定之前是不是有勞動部的代表是先確認一下"},{"start":2793.217,"end":2794.959,"text":"勞動部代表有沒有來你們認為要把相關責任歸在勞動部可是我還是要提醒其實新竹市還有其他地方說實在的政府機關補助工會人事費用並不是這邊才出現的其實在很多其他的單位裡面其實也都有這樣子的一個狀況我還是要提醒一下對"},{"start":2821.139,"end":2845.147,"text":"勞動部這邊說明其實我們當然會針對工會的補助等獎勵的部分的話我們中央當然有訂立相關辦法但是就勞動部而言確實是沒有針對人事費或團體費用的部分當然我們有訂相關的獎補助針對工會的部分那至於其他的縣市主管機關他們有沒有訂的話這可能他們就他們會有"},{"start":2846.627,"end":2873.752,"text":"他們會有其他的考量每個縣市會不太一樣所以這部分的話因為這個條文的部分的話其實確實有其他委員會提到因為我們針對的公會是全部所有類型的公會所以我們基本上我們的這個標準會是一致的對那至於針對運動員部會如果說我們的這個教育部或我們體育署有另外的考量的話我們這邊當然都是尊重他們的這個部分的一個處理以上"},{"start":2875.239,"end":2898.908,"text":"所以勞動部不反對嘛 大家都尊重嘛啊尊重的結果就是 所以怎麼樣 可以把它放入我們的條文當中嗎如果我們第二項本來可能就前一項運動員工會或團體之承認輔導及頓耗獎補助頓耗其他相關辦法由中央主管機關定資啦就是說那個業務費啦 基本人事費啦團體協約簽訂之獎 那個寫的有點"},{"start":2903.71,"end":2904.811,"text":"就前項運動員、工會或團體之承認遁號輔導"},{"start":2929.69,"end":2937.613,"text":"盾號蔣補助盾號其他相關辦法鬥點由中央主管機關定制就是不要有業務費用或基本人事費用就是不要有這些所以可以不要有業務費用跟基本人事費用這是你們比較關切的"},{"start":2961.122,"end":2979.388,"text":"不好意思我只差一個問題是說他為什麼要把承認放裡面他會牽涉到你未來有任何獎補助辦法的時候你一定要畫一個主觀範圍那個主觀範圍就是哪些團體會落入你這個獎補助的補助辦法的射程範圍內"},{"start":2981.008,"end":2995.581,"text":"所以你有承認這兩個字其實是給主管機關在後續處理講補助的時候當有法律當作授權依據你們去定那個範圍的時候會非常的明確也會避免未來產生爭議"},{"start":3000.356,"end":3029.274,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那我們這邊是前項已經有提到要輔導公會跟團體的成立嘛那後項是針對成立以後這些運動員的公會或團體講的是後面的輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關建議加四項兩個字相關四項之辦法四項之辦法由中央主管機關定之那"},{"start":3030.414,"end":3059.694,"text":"黃委員指教的是說我們所謂的承認是希望未來在這個辦法裡面對工會或團體的範圍能夠明定這個是所有幾乎很多法規命令在適用範圍的時候它都會有一個條文來界定說本辦法所稱的工會或是所定的工會團體包括多少個那個是一般體力裡面就可以定的"},{"start":3060.374,"end":3061.235,"text":"委員林德福等21人擬具"},{"start":3091.074,"end":3116.204,"text":"如果真的要講是他的範圍不是承認的話應該就是他的範圍頓耗、輔導、然後獎勵、補助這樣是可以的,但是就是,對,對,然後後面對,我說範圍是可以不加也可以定他就是當我們在說明裡面講清楚可不可以就是說我,我們在"},{"start":3117.944,"end":3121.954,"text":"對啊 就是那個範圍是可以不加在說明裡面加就可以了"},{"start":3122.574,"end":3149.455,"text":"但稍微我請教因為其實本席也提出來是相關嘛那你現在講是說我不知道說你現在爭執的點到底是說承認這兩個詞是我們在法律用詞不用可是我們跟幾個委員家提出來的版本其實某種程度上它是認定啦就是說這樣的一個公會或團體的認定其實還是中央主管機關認定第一它是認定然後你要輔導以及獎勵跟補助等相關的辦法嘛"},{"start":3152.619,"end":3165.577,"text":"實務上的經驗有沒有會不會有這個重複的一個運動員工會或者是說有一些運動他可能項目比較廣還是說有沒有可能有新興項目運動那也是要由主管機關來去做認定"},{"start":3167.359,"end":3181.08,"text":"所以如果說以這個回歸到我們現在希望能夠比較完整的話就是說你不要用承認這兩個這個詞但是不要用認定這個詞來去做整個比較完整的這一個方向"},{"start":3182.776,"end":3195.996,"text":"教育部的說法是不管是承認或是認定或是什麼基本上他們認為在本質上他們就會做這樣的事情所以在文字上面不需要特別把它做一個圖顯了那大家委員看一下嘛"},{"start":3200.622,"end":3213.187,"text":"其實這樣子,就是我們因為七條之二的第一項其實已經有講說是為了健全職業...因為積極輔導相關賽事制運動員公會團體成立了嘛第一項已經成立的這些運動員公會團體前項這些公會團體是輔導、講助、補助嘛所以就沒有成立的問題了所以第一項已經都成立了嘛"},{"start":3223.291,"end":3242.324,"text":"所以我們第二項就是針對這些已經成立的已經被承認的團體或公會我們進行輔導、講助、補助跟其他事情這樣比較單純啦沒有啦我覺得其他的委員就是其實要讓這個文字裡面大家不要就是一望就知道就是很明確的嘛那剛剛大家已經有"},{"start":3243.004,"end":3243.224,"text":"第七條之二為健全"},{"start":3262.944,"end":3290.367,"text":"職業與業餘運動業之發展中央主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員、工會或團體成立前項運動員、工會或團體之輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之好不好文字上沒有問題那我們就修正後通過好不好來很好七字三那我們附帶訣也不用了七字三來我們來看七字三七字三好"},{"start":3294.537,"end":3301.495,"text":"我們73的問題來各位委員有沒有誰有意見我們把73放進來好不好就73之多有關於這個"},{"start":3303.365,"end":3326.814,"text":"防堵的機制當然還有包括委員有提到一些所謂的懲罰的一個條款然後大家先看一下我們對照條文七支三的部分來七支三好長現在又開始嗎我們現在看到題會討論的版本嘛好不好大家看一下我不要念了嘛這個A4紙都已經四分之三的文字了大家看一下有意見的請舉手"},{"start":3328.974,"end":3355.441,"text":"張雅玲委員、林益謹委員好不好來我們先看一下來先雅玲我想就是在針對有更正有更正這73以A4的為主啦她這個提案條本A4的在哪裡我們先看一下每個委員都有相關資料跟你們的提案版本不一樣是不是新的新的新的給大家"},{"start":3358.191,"end":3360.393,"text":"7.3中央主管機關應制定並推動防制運動賭博政策,輔導職業與業餘運動團體建立防制運動賭博之信託基金機制及辦理。"},{"start":3387.554,"end":3402.426,"text":"以強暴、脅迫、詐訴或其他非法之方法,法案運動競技賽事之公平者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以上、三千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":3403.507,"end":3423.041,"text":"審判前項之罪因而至人與死者處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑各得併科新台幣兩千萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金三人以上共同犯第二項之罪者處三年以上十年以下有期"},{"start":3423.982,"end":3434.626,"text":"徒刑得病科新台病2000萬元以上5000萬以下罰金第二項及前項之未遂犯罰之第二項運動競技賽事範圍如下一、職業運動聯盟舉辦之職業運動賽事二、特定體育團體舉辦之企業運動聯賽"},{"start":3444.73,"end":3463.419,"text":"其他經中央主管機關公告之與運動產業發展有關之重要運動基金賽事不管怎麼樣大家討論我還是要給予體育署終於拿出這個很具象的哪一些的賽事我們之前說實在的也是說了很久了我們今天才看到最後看到的出來"},{"start":3465.388,"end":3488.286,"text":"現在終於拿到了我們拿這個A4版本大家來做討論好不好之前你可以對照一下我們七四三四我們要求他們提出來是都沒有今天有把這三大項裡面大家可以看得出來有啦職業運動啦特定體育團體舉辦的企業運動聯賽還有中央主管公告與運動產業相關的有起碼很具象的提出來了那個第二款那個企業運動聯賽把它修正為企業聯賽了"},{"start":3490.748,"end":3494.489,"text":"感謝召委包括相關的罰款金額以及刑期都有加重本席予以肯定也有放入要求建立"},{"start":3518.255,"end":3540.175,"text":"防止運動賭博的信託基金的機制這本期予以肯定但我們在七支我的版本七支二裡面是有再提到一個就是說擁有運動經營權法人團體代表等主動配合檢調調查如果說有隱匿抗拒的話那處相關的一個罰緩的一個部分那在這個"},{"start":3542.316,"end":3557.003,"text":"教育部、體育署這個版本裡面是沒有把它放入那我是不是討論一下我覺得說因為過去到現在的這個樣態裡面還是有當然可能會難度越來越高可是過去畢竟是有這個詐騙集團直接去經營球團"},{"start":3558.524,"end":3586.013,"text":"那這樣子的痛我們不能再發生所以我還是希望是說能夠針對這個經營者的一個部分當然我相信百分之九十九都是善良經營者但是如果說真的有檢調要進入到調查的話相關的法人、團體、代表應該都要主動配合辦理那也要有相關的一個行則以上 謝謝好 有關經營者的部分來 我們林德福委員 關於張雅琳委員那個 好 我們好"},{"start":3587.608,"end":3611.35,"text":"好 謝謝我想這次的整個運動產業發展條例的一些修法因為我們過去發生很多職業籃球員甚至於射擊打假球、地下遷讀這些不法的案件造成民眾對我國運動競賽的賽事信任度大幅度的下滑"},{"start":3612.071,"end":3615.454,"text":"委員蔡易餘等19人擬具《運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案》、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具"},{"start":3632.291,"end":3644.443,"text":"灰頭柱標的職業運動並不受其範圍如果發生遷土放水將面臨是否可以適用處罰的餘地本席認為現行運動產業發展條例需要加以修改以維護運動賽事"},{"start":3651.587,"end":3678.848,"text":"禁忌的公平性保護運動產業善良的發展避免地下遷讀來影響整個職業業餘整個運動的發展本席所提的版本條文字號與其他版本不同但是本席不會堅持用自己的版本只要修法能夠防範地下遷讀讓運動產業更好本席都會支持此外"},{"start":3680.389,"end":3694.691,"text":"執辦公會、籃球公會所提的一些修法的建議本席也認為教育部、法務部要把這些意見給聽進去比如說明文來訂定政府應制定職業運動防堵的政策"},{"start":3695.732,"end":3704.038,"text":"並向學校學校端來深化相關的法治教育那針對目前整個運採條例沒有辦法覆蓋之國內熱門的賽事如運採未開盤之"},{"start":3710.982,"end":3731.233,"text":"少數職棒的賽事、籃球聯賽、企業足賽還有企業排球以致於學生賽事等等都比照運產條例來設計提高相關的罰則以嚇阻這些意圖操縱賽事不孝的分子希望運動產業發展條例能夠順利修法以進行國內產業的發展以上 謝謝"},{"start":3739.669,"end":3750.355,"text":"好 謝謝林德福委員他不堅持但是他充分的表達對於所謂的防堵機制上面要嚴格的駕馭防堵了解接下來是陳培瑜委員、張雅玲委員、林一錦委員謝謝"},{"start":3755.837,"end":3785.197,"text":"好 謝謝主席那個在七之三的第三行我想要加入本來是輔導職業與業餘運動團體對嗎我要加入一個運動員團體因為現在的基金是公會在管理不是聯盟可是按照現在的寫法其實是聯盟所以要把運動團體改成業餘運動員團體這個請注意然後再來第二項以強暴脅迫詐術要加上一個利誘"},{"start":3786.518,"end":3796.55,"text":"那個周思齊現在在看直播他交代我們利誘是一個很常用的手段所以在在入法的時候可不可以把利誘放上去謝謝"},{"start":3798.16,"end":3825.524,"text":"那可能還要再加一下順著培瑜委員的話也業餘運動員團體好不好順便一下有沒有第二條輔導職業與業餘運動員團體建立防制運動這樣才跟前面才會互相的呼應然後希望能夠以強迫、頓耗、脅迫、頓耗、詐數、頓耗、利誘或其他非法之方法這個運動員最清楚他們所承受的辛苦來"},{"start":3826.284,"end":3838.863,"text":"壓力委員其實我也是延續一樣因為我想說因為我自己這樣一路看這些他們還有招待喝花酒嘛請客嘛沒有因為這東西他現在好像似乎沒有辦法列入在這個裡面嘛所以我是"},{"start":3840.791,"end":3866.583,"text":"其實如果請他去吃飯呢或是他丟一點那時候就是周思齊的案例不是給他錢嗎就是我也是認同啦就是應該加入利誘這個事情啦OK那只是說如果我們修利誘進去的話我們的運彩條例是不是也要同步一起來修這是一個提醒那最後一個就是說在第二項的運動賽事範圍如下那個特定體育團體舉辦之企業聯賽我只想說要特地寫聯賽還是不能寫賽事嗎因為其他都是寫賽事為什麼這個特別寫聯賽"},{"start":3869.923,"end":3870.383,"text":"法制局法制局法制局委員"},{"start":3885.925,"end":3915.345,"text":"主席謝謝我想今天討論七之三喔特別在十二強棒球台灣拿到冠軍之後那有所謂的網紅在高台括論說他以前在做球棒的感覺喔全台灣人民很憤怒喔特別是我這種老球迷那所以防堵機制這個七之三的防堵機制相對更為重要喔那我想全國人民很關注那特別是職棒球員公會也有特別發聲喔希望運動賽事的這個防堵機制可以更健全"},{"start":3915.945,"end":3933.252,"text":"所以我想上次我們討論的重點就是在這個所謂的職業運動跟業餘的運動賽事的射程範圍因為運動賽事有大大小小有職業辦、職業業餘、企業聯賽、選運動力戰等等那我想將哪些賽事列入我想要請體育署務必要列清楚"},{"start":3934.032,"end":3961.892,"text":"我想今天寫的條文很多都是概括性的文字那到底是哪個賽事到時候可能要羅列清楚那包括法則的部分我想要有威懾性這個很重要因為這樣才有防堵的這個力量可是我想今天要訂這個法那我想處罰還是要符合比例原則那我這部分覺得等一下再請法務部做個說明那我們希望參照法務部的意見以上"},{"start":3969.829,"end":3989.924,"text":"第七條之三針對第二項強暴脅迫詐術為贊成加上利誘這樣的一個手段但是我要另外請教的是我們主管機關或者是法務部的代表針對這種刑事犯罪行為在立法體力上面如果是意圖盈利的話"},{"start":3990.805,"end":4008.293,"text":"通常會有加重期刑的規定這是為什麼臺灣民眾黨黨團我們一開始在針對這種非法行為太陽的時候我們寫得很細包括三人以上刑度要拉高這件事情也是我們當初所提出來的立法設計三人以上"},{"start":4009.793,"end":4029.884,"text":"去做這個事情基本上要處理組織性的犯罪形態但是你如果把它定義成犯罪組織現在組織犯罪防治條例某個程度上面認定嚴格的標準已經嚴格到快要沒有辦法適用了所以用三人以上的立法體力當初我們的設計是這樣但是"},{"start":4032.165,"end":4054.268,"text":"可是你們今天所提出來的建議條文把意圖盈利、要加重期刑的部分把它給刪了那我不知道實際上面的考慮是什麼因為在刑事處罰當中當你是意圖盈利去做這樣子的事情的時候那個刑事的可責性絕對是更高的"},{"start":4054.989,"end":4078.341,"text":"那我覺得意圖盈利去做這些事情的時候他的惡性更為重大在相應的刑事處罰上給他加重期刑我們認為是符合比例原則的只是我看到今天主管機關所提出來的條文把意圖盈利加重期刑的部分把它刪除掉實際上面的考慮到底是什麼可能等一下也要麻煩我們的主管機關回應一下還有沒有"},{"start":4082.284,"end":4102.671,"text":"那有關於剛剛所有的委員所提出來包括黃木凱委員他的條文裡面就提關有關經營者的這個層面還有黃國昌委員特別提到的意圖盈利的部分還有包括提到的賽事跟聯賽這個用詞用語這個層面還有剛剛林錦委員的這個不管是提到的這些相關的部分是不是請你們一併來作為說明好不好來"},{"start":4111.015,"end":4125.483,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到的我們這一次的修法希望能夠建構一個安全友善的競技環境來維護這一個運動員可以安心的來從事職業運動等等的生涯發展"},{"start":4126.825,"end":4146.481,"text":"原來這個關係文書所列的多數的版本的刑度都列在五年以下後來我們這個再仔細思考了以後今天修正的是運動產業發展條例是所有運動產業的基本法"},{"start":4147.242,"end":4159.832,"text":"那跟運動彩券發行條例運動彩券業只是運動產業裡面的一支的特別法那它被拉出來而且是立法立在前面"},{"start":4160.975,"end":4178.187,"text":"我們今天把這個基本法訂出來以後宣示一個剛剛各位委員、跨黨派都支持的就是要建構友善安全的運動競技環境所以我們的賽事也可能會包括到納入標的賽事"},{"start":4179.571,"end":4198.266,"text":"也可能不納入標的但是是對於運動產業發展全國各界關注的重要賽事所以這樣一個重要賽事如果被用強暴脅迫、詐欺或利誘利誘待會兒可能還可以請法務部來表示意見的這些"},{"start":4200.612,"end":4201.513,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":4217.656,"end":4244.85,"text":"6個月以上5年以下或是1年以上5年以下有期徒刑金拉高了很多那至於說本來有區分意圖盈利跟不意圖盈利那我們現在是把這樣的一個刑度拉高了以後未來就由司法機關去裁判的時候如果他有意圖盈利的也搭配後面的病科罰金他的裁量空間會比較大那因為這次的修法比較急迫那我們提到的是說"},{"start":4246.031,"end":4273.263,"text":"這一個運動產業發展條例的條文的構成要件那跟我們現在運採行之多年的構成要件盡量讓它一致那一致它的干擾的類型是一樣的那立法技術上就會比較成熟完整所以我們用的就不再做那個細部的區分那如果剛剛所提到的那個利誘的部分是不是可以請法務部來指教"},{"start":4274.58,"end":4299.995,"text":"所以你剛剛學到的意圖營利的部分你這個條件是跟那個運採的條例的體力是一樣的好等一下我們先請法務部主席各位委員還有次長、署長有關利誘是不是要放進我們這個構成要件裡面我們剛剛有查過相關過去的體力刑法裡面是沒有利誘這個用於當構成要件但是在陸海空軍刑法46條有"},{"start":4301.636,"end":4331.076,"text":"那大概就是這一個條文然後其他的大概就不是用刑罰的處罰那只有陸海空軍刑法的46條它有這個刑罰的構成要件是有放利誘那這樣利誘是不是可以放在其他非法之方法來看那其實主要如果把它放在其他非法之方法來看的話我們應該就是在實務解釋上可以來認定它是不是跟強暴脅迫、詐數相當的這個非法方法"},{"start":4331.476,"end":4332.619,"text":"誒!"},{"start":4334.875,"end":4363.075,"text":"合意利誘合意因為像如果是利誘的話就等於是只有比如說主頭來利誘球員那利誘這個行為人就只有主頭那受利誘的那個他就不是共同證犯但是我們這一條看起來如果用詐數他們雙方都可以是共犯的這個行為所以這個可能提出來給大家參考那另外有關這個刑責的部分"},{"start":4364.246,"end":4389.544,"text":"因為這次我們有三人以上共同犯之跟因而致重傷致人於死這個三項我們把它就是有分得層次分開這也符合我們過去刑法的加重的體力因為刑法的加重強制性交罪在222條第一項裡面他有兩人以上共同犯的他的刑度是一個層次那如果是"},{"start":4392.626,"end":4406.53,"text":"致死、致重傷在226條就有更加重的所以我們這次就一併參考也有提供給體育署、教育部參考所以他們都有調整了所以我們也贊同那另外還有302條之一的"},{"start":4409.511,"end":4427.351,"text":"防害自由的這部分也是有三人以上的犯罪是一到七年然後嬰兒致死就是無期徒刑十年以上嬰兒重傷五到十二年所以這次我們也有分層次那我們也是認為這樣比較符合體力那剛剛還有這個洪孟凱委員講到的"},{"start":4427.911,"end":4445.738,"text":"就是我們檢察官在進入司法調查之後如果認為這些財團法人代表人團體他們應該有主動配合調查的義務如果有引力抗拒查證屬實有行政裁罰的這個部分這個部分我們提一個"},{"start":4446.718,"end":4468.597,"text":"我們看這個條文是有一點點奇怪因為既然已經進入司法偵查程序其實檢察官有強制如果他不配合檢察官是有強制處分有我們可以做的刑事訴訟給我們的強制處分的權利來做後續的偵查處理那如果因為他引義抗拒然後行政機關再跳出來做行政調查這看起來有"},{"start":4469.077,"end":4470.297,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":4498.346,"end":4498.766,"text":"民眾黨特別非常在乎的"},{"start":4516.871,"end":4527.8,"text":"這個我們就是尊重主管機關所以你說了老半天利誘這兩個字你們說了老半天陸海空軍刑法是有是有再說其他的沒有其他沒有"},{"start":4530.176,"end":4555.031,"text":"孟楷委員剛剛這樣的一個解釋說明我可以接受不堅持後面因為如果說我們重點在於是不要再發生過去那樣的樣態那但是如果說你現在講是說已經有這個形式已經介入檢察官已經有更強硬的手段可以要求配合的話那你說處不處罰的這個罰環的一個部分那罰環要多少這可能我們就可以再討論那這一點我不堅持不過"},{"start":4556.874,"end":4576.612,"text":"因為我也有在意圖盈利的這個部分要加重期刑二分之一所以我也認為是說這應該要把它給放入為什麼其實你看喔如果說真的有意圖盈利的情況因為我們這邊前面討論是說非法手段來防範運動競技賽事公平那它可能還是會有"},{"start":4577.513,"end":4588.321,"text":"這個情節的情種一個是牠是牽扯到賭盤、賭金的一個部分那一個可能是牠不一定有牽扯到賭盤、賭金但是也許是牽扯到比如說對戰組合、桌隊廝殺或可能我這一場"},{"start":4591.67,"end":4592.311,"text":"委員林德福等21人擬具"},{"start":4611.974,"end":4639.344,"text":"我國法令是絕對不允許有任何人用任何非法手段去介入公平的運動賽事那如果說你後面的目的還是用盈利的話那我們就加重二分之一所以我認為說是不是加重二分之一這個是可以把它給放入讓更多人看到這一點條文的時候其實是可以很明白的理解就是你要盈利的話你要賺錢不好意思不要來干涉不要來把你的黑手深入到我們的運動賽事好 以上謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":4642.947,"end":4671.753,"text":"剛剛這位官員所講的不好意思那個處長剛剛處長所講的事情我不是聽不懂但我要跟處長分享的幾個事情是第一個在我國刑事處罰的體力上意圖盈利本來就是一個提高刑度基本上面的法定構成要件那因此特別是在這一種打假球"},{"start":4674.022,"end":4701.103,"text":"因為要盈利而去做這件事情在惡性上如果你不透過法定型的提高沒有辦法適度的去評價他對於法規範秩序所造成的迫害因為你跟其他的脈絡相比大家都會問一件事為什麼在其他脈絡的時候只要涉及到意圖盈利法定型就往上了"},{"start":4702.287,"end":4728.379,"text":"反而在這個脈絡的時候我們立法者的決斷竟然是不需要提高讓法院自己依照刑法第57條各款的要件去在法定裁量的裡面去做調整事實上我必須要說的事情是如果反而是在這一種為了要去懲治要去賺那種錢而去搞這一種事情傷害運動員的人"},{"start":4731.164,"end":4754.315,"text":"反而在法規上面你不加重其刑而是把它回到所謂法院量刑裡面的評價恐怕啦在整個規範的體力上面跟現行整個刑事處罰的規範體力不符那第二個立法者在這件事情所做成的評價那可能也會傳遞"},{"start":4756.178,"end":4784.826,"text":"一些錯誤的訊息那其實法條的構造並不困難其實法條的構造並不困難因為我知道你們心裡面在想的是說三人以上我已經有加重了嘛但是我要跟大家說明的事情是說在這種犯罪形態之下你要回去想喔如果你沒有辦法在訴訟上沒有辦法去證明他是三人以上一起幹的話那你就要回到第一項了"},{"start":4785.994,"end":4808.989,"text":"當你回到第一項的時候有辦法證明意圖盈利跟沒有辦法你在法定型回到本來的原則上面那恐怕不是簡單的一句說交給法官依照具體個案裁量就可以處理的事情那我們法制處您再補充一下"},{"start":4811.619,"end":4836.053,"text":"謝謝委員提到我們提到說運產條例它基本上當時就是為了要防止賭博這是大宗的類型所以用強暴脅迫、詐欺其他非法的方法防害運動競技的本身它有一點抽象為嫌犯的概念就是說你做這件事一百年九十九年都是在做賭博的"},{"start":4836.753,"end":4860.374,"text":"所以我就直接把你刑度拉高了他內部就隱含著多數的類型就是有高度不好的內涵所以他才會定一年以上七年以下那我們提到剛剛提到的就是說那我們今天新立一個法律的條文要不要創設跟運採條例的構成要件不一樣的加多一個盈利跟不盈利的區分"},{"start":4861.235,"end":4888.096,"text":"那本來原來的設想是說因為時間也比較急迫所以是不是用比較成熟的運產條例的這個構成要件都跟他一樣我們剛剛提到的原先的刑度都只有五年以下但我們現在是把他拉到七年以下那委員的意見說就分啊盈利的就五年以下七年以下那這個不盈利的是不是要輕一點那我們剛剛提到的是說"},{"start":4894.564,"end":4902.113,"text":"提到的就是說就有點像運彩一樣他即使是運動彩券他多了一個妨礙運動彩券發行的秩序"},{"start":4903.635,"end":4921.557,"text":"即使營利跟不營利的他並不區分的所以我剛特別提到的是說他已經有一個一年以上七年以下的積聚嘛那這個本來就是看你犯罪的形態手段惡不惡劣然後人數多不多危害跟你的企圖動機影不影響所以"},{"start":4922.758,"end":4941.434,"text":"我必須這樣提就是說我們在很快的時間內要擬出一個大家共識而且執行比較無礙的條文那我們的建議是因為我們提列出來的是非投注標的賽事但它的重要性在運動產業發展上跟投注標的類似所以用相同的構成來解決"},{"start":4941.994,"end":4946.278,"text":"我們好 我先說一下我們等一下休息五分鐘大家再做一個討論其實剛剛法務部都是尊重那我也尊重處長的說法我想國昌委員和剛剛洪孟凱委員只是在目前為止大家對於這個所謂的賭是深痛無絕"},{"start":4960.39,"end":4975.161,"text":"那你這個東西或許在運產的部分裡面並沒有提出這樣的部分那我們意圖引力只是更能夠凸顯出我們在修這個法的時候我們展現出實質的一個態度如果它跟你這個體力上沒有太過違法"},{"start":4975.962,"end":4997.23,"text":"我個人認為說不是運財如何我們這邊就要配合來做說不定你把這個意圖營利這一條放進去的時候運財說不定在下次修法的時候也會配合這樣的做法然後把它更凸顯出來這是我們的看法我們這邊休息五分鐘大家做一個溝通好不好五分鐘之後我們再來做最後的一個決議可以嗎我們先溝通一下"},{"start":6129.69,"end":6142.681,"text":"那是你駕駛,但你不要想要把手伸進來,因為如果說我們現在沒有修的話,那這樣子...好來,我們七之三的部分,我們剛剛經過休息協商之後"},{"start":6143.855,"end":6171.796,"text":"顯然大家還是有一些的歧見但是我還是用做最後的努力希望我們今天因為我們不管是七之一、七之二都有一個共識七之三的部分我們還是希望各委員今天還是能夠把他送出委員會然後可以盡量把他出來所以我們是不是最後顯然就是在這個有關意圖營利的這個層面當中那個國昌委員跟孟凱委員認為可以把意圖營利或三人以上這個部分就是"},{"start":6173.317,"end":6181.101,"text":"把意圖營利這個部分放到這個部分來但是教育部的法制處顯然認為說這樣的做法在行政的橫評上面會有一些的疑慮那我們是針對最後這個部分裡面我們在最後的溝通財委其實我們剛剛在中間的溝通我覺得感覺因為法務部已經覺得說可以接受、尊重"},{"start":6197.529,"end":6221.118,"text":"那教育部的法務局的部分應該是也認為說你只要把它說明清楚立法說明清楚應該是可以接受在我們一、二、三、四第四款就是說意圖營利或三人以上共犯第二項之罪這樣子的部分我覺得是不是還是因為為什麼我們再一次強調說我們在這一次的修法就是我們要"},{"start":6222.401,"end":6223.122,"text":"以加重處分來嚇阻犯刑"},{"start":6237.881,"end":6265.358,"text":"這個我覺得因為我們今天這個協商之前其實已經討論過了一次了那我們今天的精神最主要就是全部都要加重所以先天今天這個教育部拿提出來的提惠版本就是重點在強暴、脅迫、詐欺或其他非法執法我們都是加重處罰不管是刑度還是罰金那所以以今天的提惠版本的刑度已經是一上七下已經比我們上次在這裡討論的時候是加重了"},{"start":6267.159,"end":6296.405,"text":"那因為民眾黨團原先的提案原來的版本沒有加重的一般的就是強迫威脅詐數是六個月以上五年以下尤其徒刑然後如果意圖盈利竟然要加重的話加重期二分之一加完是九個月以上7.5年以下其實比我們現在光是講強暴脅迫詐數還沒有加重到的就還要低了刑度還要低了那現在突然提出來說硬土盈利加重"},{"start":6298.004,"end":6323.62,"text":"跟上次的這個版本差這麼多本來是六個月以上而已所以我會覺得說我還是希望說我們今天這個體會版本可以先出去因為這個已經討論過今天不是第一次討論大家對這個刑度加重是有高度共識的所以今天體會來版本已經加重了嘛大家看一下各位原先的版本都沒有到一上七下這麼高喔罰金也是來都已經加重是"},{"start":6324.46,"end":6348.556,"text":"德併科罰金是一千萬以上三千萬以下罰金這都是符合我們上一次討論的時候要求要去加重所以我會覺得說剛剛這個益土利是不是要進來加重這可以討論但是離上次的這個版本差太多了你原先的這個刑度最低是六個月以上好還有沒有那個國鄉委員過來是雅琳委員好"},{"start":6355.472,"end":6381.188,"text":"說明一下第一項在不涉及意圖盈利的情況下把法定行動依上膝下我們竟表同意我一點意見都沒有但是為什麼我們剛剛一直在處理意圖盈利的事情是在刑事法律的世界裡面當意圖盈利而去做一些事情的時候"},{"start":6382.13,"end":6399.484,"text":"他的法定型本來就是會拉高的所以拿不同的版本的出發點來比事實上並不是在討論這個問題的本質這個問題的本質是我們的出發點是第一項在這一種行為太陽下"},{"start":6401.573,"end":6426.629,"text":"基本款的行為太陽下一上七下大家都認同這個沒有問題現在在思考的層次是在這個基本款上面如果你因為意圖盈利而做這件事情的時候是不是應該要加重處罰那我們剛剛所在講的是我理解就是說可能教育部這邊"},{"start":6428.834,"end":6429.194,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":6444.568,"end":6445.088,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":6463.881,"end":6482.057,"text":"10年以下有期凸顯那為什麼3人以上犯我們要加重處罰因為我們認為3人以上犯他對於法益侵害威脅的程度跟可責性的程度會比較高那但是如果今天我是因為意圖盈利來出力"},{"start":6483.004,"end":6503.275,"text":"我意圖盈利來處理即使沒有三人以上犯那以我們大家目前社會上也好、球員也好對這種事情深惡痛絕的程度直接把它放在意圖盈利或三人以上共同犯第二項之罪處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑我們基本上會認為說這樣子的話"},{"start":6505.456,"end":6533.725,"text":"其他的規範其他的規範我們要考慮的事情通通都可以涵蓋在這裡面而不是在任何的情就是說用意圖盈利按照一般的體力全部都加加二分之一剛剛我們在討論希望能夠有一個大家彼此之間有共識的方向的建制基礎是在這裡還有沒有其他的意見來張雅琳委員"},{"start":6534.824,"end":6562.332,"text":"我想確認一件事情就是說因為我們最主要就是希望去加重刑罰來達到一個宣誓我們要打擊這些賭博 對不對這些...好 過兩話嗎沒事 請說好 就是我們要打擊這些犯罪嘛那我想確認一件事情因為其實我們這次基本上的東西都已經是提升提高這個刑罰那我想再確認在我們這次今年修這個兒童性影像性剝削這個性影像的時候"},{"start":6562.992,"end":6583.564,"text":"我們是不是也有針對意圖盈利散播的地方我記得那時候的討論也是有在討論是不是要罰得更高更重但是因為後來法務部跟司法院的意見都是有考量到一個很平性的問題那我想我們是不是也是要去考慮到在這件事情的修法上面我們是的確要建立一個我們打擊犯罪的形象但是我們還是要回應到法律的實務上面一個很平性的問題好 那個吳佩儀委員"},{"start":6589.805,"end":6609.302,"text":"我還是想要強調說加重處罰、加重刑度、加重罰金這些我們通通都支持跟認同那意圖盈利這個我們當然深惡痛絕因為這個最後造成的傷害都是對於選手的傷害所以如果要把它加進來加重處罰跟三人以上共犯這些一起來加重"},{"start":6609.662,"end":6633.136,"text":"我覺得可以來討論但我還是希望因為我要強調的是今天的體會版本已經離民眾黨的第一次的版本這個的加重處罰都比它還要高了我是希望說下一次可不可以你在提案的時候你一開始就兼加重啊不要到已經協商最後一刻才提出一個之前沒討論過的版本這就花大家很多的時間我是希望可以這樣大家互相尊重好 那我們最後是不是鄭署長同意"},{"start":6642.231,"end":6665.221,"text":"來 所以目前為止因為那個我們尊重剛剛張雅禮委員也特別提到兒童性剝削的時候其實在這個議題上面其實還有特別提到橫貧的問題我剛剛也特別提到橫貧的問題然後佩儀委員也認為說大家認為對於這些深通誤覺裏面意圖犯罪部分大家都有各三黨都有一個共識但是還是仍然希望說在我們提出討論的時候大家能夠在這個落差上面"},{"start":6666.441,"end":6672.704,"text":"立法院朝野黨協商：一、本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條之一條文草案》、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具"},{"start":6688.331,"end":6688.931,"text":"委員蔡易餘等19人擬具"},{"start":6718.82,"end":6725.146,"text":"我剛剛有提一個附帶決議就是希望好來好73附帶決議沒問題針對運動產業發展條例73條所稱是職業運動賽事企業聯賽具體定義然後我們希望體育署在三讀後六個月內完成相關辦法跟規定"},{"start":6735.403,"end":6749.768,"text":"這體育署有沒有問題因為你要把它做一個定義吧只有改兩個字就是相關辦法改成相關規定因為我們只能定行政規則好 沒有問題可是你們給我們的版本裡面是寫職業運動賽事跟企業運動聯賽所以我們現在確定一下名字應該就是改成職業運動賽事跟企業聯賽對職業運動賽事跟那所以是長成這樣囉署長你看那我們是不是再看一下最後的條文"},{"start":6769.02,"end":6776.707,"text":"政本那邊我們剛剛都有簽字嘛剛剛培育委員那一塊所以把你這個辦法改成規定好這樣可以嗎好所以我們73附帶決議就政本在哪裡我們看一下好不好"},{"start":6787.691,"end":6799.299,"text":"好 你們先處理一下那個附帶決議那我們第七條之三就在我們剛剛上面所看到的螢幕上所看到的部分我們就是修正通過那附帶決議的正本是不是給我們"},{"start":6803.462,"end":6806.525,"text":"附帶決議裏面我念一下陳培瑜的附帶決議裏面就針對運動產業發展條例第七之三條所稱之職業運動賽事企業聯賽之具體定義以及輔導運動員團體建立防制運動賭博之信託基金機制之相關規定體育署應於三讀後六個月內完成這樣OK吧"},{"start":6827.583,"end":6833.928,"text":"好 那我們這個附帶決議就通過然後我還是因為我們7至2已經修正通過所以原審查會保留的附帶決議這一案我們就是不予通過好不好 7至2的部分好 那接下來本席做這樣的一個決定那我想這個我們協商的結論就是增訂第七條之二增訂第七條之三修正通過 如後我們這個修正通過還有通過協商新收附帶決議共一項"},{"start":6855.766,"end":6857.126,"text":"原審查會保留附帶決議供一案是不予通過其餘均照審查會審查結果通過檢附立法說明一份"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}