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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1746.698,"end":1747.21,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1917.81,"end":1918.093,"text":"先開始"},{"start":1919.775,"end":1924.597,"text":"好 那我們現在開始協商會議該到的委員各黨團的代表請對這個法案有興趣的委員請大家紛紛到場那我們現在開始協商會議那本日協商是關於我們本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員會蔡易餘等19人擬具運動產業發展條例第26條之二條文修正草案等五案"},{"start":1950.204,"end":1953.126,"text":"還有經院會晉赴二讀與相關提案並按協商之委員洪孟凱等19人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二還有第七條之三的條文草案"},{"start":1980.144,"end":1981.705,"text":"陳培瑜委員、張雅琳委員與會機關代表張廖次長、鄭署長、法務部汪南君"},{"start":1996.414,"end":1997.075,"text":"副委員副委員副委員"},{"start":2018.571,"end":2026.897,"text":"還有淨富二讀提案的關係文書還有與會委員如果有修正動議或者是機關有建議內容請提出書面印發現場來進行討論還有要特別報告因為蔡易餘委員在第一會期第二十二次會議的提案撤回"},{"start":2035.683,"end":2037.245,"text":"蔡易餘提案撤回經院會同意不納入本次協商討論目前為止所印的有關蔡易餘部分是空白的"},{"start":2051.923,"end":2067.456,"text":"先請大家的記憶一下我們的審查會於113年7月11日我們審查完畢之後我們的審查結果還有保留增訂七之二就是我們今天要討論的重點七之二跟增訂七之三還有附帶決議議案並決議院會討論前交由我們黨團協商那我們先依條文的順序討論保留的條文最後我們再討留附帶決議好"},{"start":2077.865,"end":2097.353,"text":"那這樣我就先報告到這邊那我們就針對七之二的部分我們先請這些提案的委員來先做一些的說明好不好然後委員發言之後我們就再請教育部體育署再來做相關的一些詢問答喔 好不好那七之二的部分大家先看一下"},{"start":2099.48,"end":2099.76,"text":"第七條之二為健全職業與業與運動業之發展"},{"start":2119.173,"end":2122.396,"text":"主要主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員工會成立運動員工會成立好不好這是他們這個我們提案的版本那有人對於這樣的提案七之二有沒有想法好陳培瑜委員"},{"start":2138.101,"end":2159.448,"text":"好 謝謝主席我的版本裡面是把公會後面再加上或團體那主要是因為運動團體不會只是有公會的型態那像日本他們就有協會所以如果假設在未來在台灣有各式各樣運動團體的成立我認為也要納入這樣那我的版本裡面第二項我同時提到就前項運動員工會的團體相關的承認輔導業務基本人事費團體協約的講注我希望還是由中央主管機關訂定相關辦法好 謝謝"},{"start":2169.877,"end":2193.485,"text":"就是將你原來刪除的團體你這次又把它重新認為還是把它納入會比較好一點就對了是不是來沒關係來還有沒有來麥克風好國差委員那個七之二的部分吼今天我們的主管機關第一項的部分我相信大家應該沒有什麼太大的"},{"start":2196.011,"end":2206.023,"text":"反對的意見不過我要附和一下陳培瑜委員剛剛所提出來的那兩點的意見因為我必須要說"},{"start":2207.372,"end":2219.025,"text":"我們這次在討論這個條例甚至包括機制和增訂本身其實真正希望的是能夠保護、保障這些運動員以及這些運動員他們團結起來以後的權利因此我們黨團在處理這件事情的時候"},{"start":2227.079,"end":2242.371,"text":"我們會特別的重視目前運動員他們所已經成立的工會或是團體所提出來的意見以及建議那到目前為止我們所收到現在相關的運動員"},{"start":2243.692,"end":2268.38,"text":"他們所成立的工會或是團體他們基本上所表達的訴求其實跟剛剛陳培瑜委員所講的內容是相互一致的第一個就除了工會以外是不是應該再增加這個團體的型態其實因為好像沒有什麼法律上面必要的理由只限於工會這種型態其他團體、協會的型態"},{"start":2270.265,"end":2270.625,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":2285.336,"end":2301.538,"text":"他們成立這件事情某個程度上面來講對於運動員而言就是說這到底是一個看得到吃不到還是看得到也吃得到而且現實上面可以產生具體法律效果的條文也是他們很關切的"},{"start":2302.259,"end":2324.966,"text":"那也正是因為這個樣子所以他們才會提議說就運動員工會或團體的承認、輔導、業務費用與團體協約簽訂的獎補助及其他相關辦法由中央主管機關定制那事實上如果說我們對於這一些團體在第一項所謂的輔導"},{"start":2326.746,"end":2343.661,"text":"這個抽象的名詞之外在第二項在法律的層次上面針對於有關主管機關藉由法律的授權給主管機關定相當的辦法那等於是立法者我們簽了一張授權的支票給行政機關"},{"start":2344.882,"end":2364.538,"text":"讓行政機關在訂這些相關執法的時候有法律可以做清楚的依循那它所產生的法律效力也會提升到有關於法律授權命令這樣子的層次那對於主管機關其實相關事務的處理"},{"start":2365.198,"end":2394.478,"text":"其實我相信我們機關的次長也好署長也好應該可以很清楚的知道說當立法者願意授權做這樣的授權的時候其實具體的辦法還是交給你們來加以訂定所以我是想說是不是我們行政部門的這一邊也可以能夠去理解或是感受到這些運動員工會他們所提出來的訴求跟需求予以統一以上"},{"start":2395.458,"end":2418.866,"text":"好謝謝還有沒有好張雅琳委員我們一併發言完畢再請我們的教育部回應好因為我自己想要做個提醒就是說因為如果我們今天出了這個人事費跟業務費會不會又違反國家中立的原則這是第一個部分第二個就是說因為在食物上面其實我們在其他的團體上面我們並沒有類似的做法這件這樣子的條文其實我覺得有點太"},{"start":2423.408,"end":2435.964,"text":"我們如果有這樣的條文的話我覺得在其他的未來跟其他團體上面我們相關的工會要成立的時候會不會有類似的問題再來就是說我們是不是可以讓這個運動員的工會直接回到勞工主管機關的工位業務系統裡面讓他來一併處理"},{"start":2443.4,"end":2455.654,"text":"有所有的公會的團體通用的一個原則但是有體育署如果我們擔心到運動員成立公會有點困難我們是不是可以有提供一些專款來讓他們做使用去補助這樣子 謝謝林益謹委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2462.958,"end":2488.425,"text":"我認為運動產業它真的有它的特殊性所以主管機關真的是要積極來協助建立友善的勞動環境那我們用中職棒球來當例子你看每個職業棒球員他們的職業生涯其實都很短暫所以他們如果要跟雇主談判爭取權益就要付出更多的成本所以健全的工會真的需要主管機關來協力"},{"start":2490.566,"end":2515.083,"text":"不然其實要兼顧一些本身的權益其實很難那可是政府跟工會之間的關係我覺得還是要審慎思考因為之前我們在審議法條的時候我就有提到說因為工會的人事費跟業務費用如果是中央來提供這個資金恐怕會有干涉工會獨立性的這個疑慮所以工會原先的自主運作可能就會被政府左右"},{"start":2515.823,"end":2521.511,"text":"若由政府補助人事費,其他工會都要比照辦理,嚴重影響現行工會體制。"},{"start":2534.354,"end":2534.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":2564.054,"end":2580.309,"text":"好吧 我們先請體育署先發表一下吧好 報告委員 那我們這邊第七條字二的後面我們也是同意 贊同就是運動員工會或運動員團體成立的字眼 這個OK那至於所以或團體這兩個字加進去欸 你要不要先改一下好不好或運動員團體運動員團體 好"},{"start":2585.958,"end":2610.006,"text":"運動員工會或團體啊因為他前面已經名詞就是這樣嘛對或團體成立好所以可以把團體再把它放進來最後項的部分是不是我們就是比較贊同詹雅琳委員的剛剛的說法是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來進行我們建議用附帶等一下那個"},{"start":2612.052,"end":2619.576,"text":"條文上面是把團體放進去但是我們要更像剛郭昌偉人所提到的部分是用附帶決議的方法來做一個處理培育委那我們等看看你們的附帶決議沒有充分不過附帶決議跟整個的立法的意旨它還是有一段的距離啦我個人覺得啦好 郭昌偉人"},{"start":2633.8,"end":2662.505,"text":"沒有因為老實講就是立法完了以後他所做的附帶決議實際上面法律上面的效力本身恐怕是大家會很疑慮的問題那至於說剛剛所提到的有一些人事費是不是要補助的這件事情這個我們其實在立法上面可以尊重"},{"start":2663.385,"end":2677.782,"text":"主管機關的決定但是我們當要去落實所謂去輔導這一些工會或者是團體的時候如果有一個法律明確授權的依據"},{"start":2679.003,"end":2704.019,"text":"讓中央主管機關去訂一個辦法的話那我剛剛講的重點是它其實是有法律的授權命令在法律上面未接的效力因為這個條次的本身的增加事實上是在授權行政機關去做並沒有強迫行政機關那個辦法要訂成什麼樣子"},{"start":2705.592,"end":2723.445,"text":"沒有具體的說說你們那個辦法一定要定成什麼樣子那只是這些目前存在的運動員的工會他們會希望說就他們的承認輔導費用那費用的範圍你們如果覺得用人的費用不妥的話"},{"start":2724.105,"end":2747.536,"text":"那你們可以就它實際上面營運的部分給它一些獎補助當我們是用獎補助來定位的時候那個就不是一個法定費用支出的義務那個就不是一個法定費用支出的義務就沒有課給政府這樣的義務但是某個程度上你換另外一個角度講是讓主管機關"},{"start":2748.777,"end":2758.57,"text":"有這樣法律的授權當作依靠的時候你們在實際業務的推廣上面在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的範圍內對於這些團體他們所謂的輔導"},{"start":2763.837,"end":2791.994,"text":"你願意透過什麼樣子的形式給他補助這件事情如果有法規授權的依據的話其實我是建議主管機關可以再審慎的考慮一下其實對你們來講真的是一件比較好的事情這部分我們也是沒有我們尊重那不過最後在決定之前是不是有勞動部的代表是先確認一下"},{"start":2793.217,"end":2794.959,"text":"勞動部代表有沒有來你們認為要把相關責任歸在勞動部可是我還是要提醒其實新竹市還有其他地方說實在的政府機關補助工會人事費用並不是這邊才出現的其實在很多其他的單位裡面其實也都有這樣子的一個狀況我還是要提醒一下對"},{"start":2821.139,"end":2845.147,"text":"勞動部這邊說明其實我們當然會針對工會的補助等獎勵的部分的話我們中央當然有訂立相關辦法但是就勞動部而言確實是沒有針對人事費或團體費用的部分當然我們有訂相關的獎補助針對工會的部分那至於其他的縣市主管機關他們有沒有訂的話這可能他們就他們會有"},{"start":2846.627,"end":2873.752,"text":"他們會有其他的考量每個縣市會不太一樣所以這部分的話因為這個條文的部分的話其實確實有其他委員會提到因為我們針對的公會是全部所有類型的公會所以我們基本上我們的這個標準會是一致的對那至於針對運動員部會如果說我們的這個教育部或我們體育署有另外的考量的話我們這邊當然都是尊重他們的這個部分的一個處理以上"},{"start":2875.239,"end":2898.908,"text":"所以勞動部不反對嘛 大家都尊重嘛啊尊重的結果就是 所以怎麼樣 可以把它放入我們的條文當中嗎如果我們第二項本來可能就前一項運動員工會或團體之承認輔導及頓耗獎補助頓耗其他相關辦法由中央主管機關定資啦就是說那個業務費啦 基本人事費啦團體協約簽訂之獎 那個寫的有點"},{"start":2903.71,"end":2904.811,"text":"就前項運動員、工會或團體之承認遁號輔導"},{"start":2929.69,"end":2937.613,"text":"盾號蔣補助盾號其他相關辦法鬥點由中央主管機關定制就是不要有業務費用或基本人事費用就是不要有這些所以可以不要有業務費用跟基本人事費用這是你們比較關切的"},{"start":2961.122,"end":2979.388,"text":"不好意思我只差一個問題是說他為什麼要把承認放裡面他會牽涉到你未來有任何獎補助辦法的時候你一定要畫一個主觀範圍那個主觀範圍就是哪些團體會落入你這個獎補助的補助辦法的射程範圍內"},{"start":2981.008,"end":2995.581,"text":"所以你有承認這兩個字其實是給主管機關在後續處理講補助的時候當有法律當作授權依據你們去定那個範圍的時候會非常的明確也會避免未來產生爭議"},{"start":3000.356,"end":3029.274,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那我們這邊是前項已經有提到要輔導公會跟團體的成立嘛那後項是針對成立以後這些運動員的公會或團體講的是後面的輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關建議加四項兩個字相關四項之辦法四項之辦法由中央主管機關定之那"},{"start":3030.414,"end":3059.694,"text":"黃委員指教的是說我們所謂的承認是希望未來在這個辦法裡面對工會或團體的範圍能夠明定這個是所有幾乎很多法規命令在適用範圍的時候它都會有一個條文來界定說本辦法所稱的工會或是所定的工會團體包括多少個那個是一般體力裡面就可以定的"},{"start":3060.374,"end":3061.235,"text":"委員林德福等21人擬具"},{"start":3091.074,"end":3116.204,"text":"如果真的要講是他的範圍不是承認的話應該就是他的範圍頓耗、輔導、然後獎勵、補助這樣是可以的,但是就是,對,對,然後後面對,我說範圍是可以不加也可以定他就是當我們在說明裡面講清楚可不可以就是說我,我們在"},{"start":3117.944,"end":3121.954,"text":"對啊 就是那個範圍是可以不加在說明裡面加就可以了"},{"start":3122.574,"end":3149.455,"text":"但稍微我請教因為其實本席也提出來是相關嘛那你現在講是說我不知道說你現在爭執的點到底是說承認這兩個詞是我們在法律用詞不用可是我們跟幾個委員家提出來的版本其實某種程度上它是認定啦就是說這樣的一個公會或團體的認定其實還是中央主管機關認定第一它是認定然後你要輔導以及獎勵跟補助等相關的辦法嘛"},{"start":3152.619,"end":3165.577,"text":"實務上的經驗有沒有會不會有這個重複的一個運動員工會或者是說有一些運動他可能項目比較廣還是說有沒有可能有新興項目運動那也是要由主管機關來去做認定"},{"start":3167.359,"end":3181.08,"text":"所以如果說以這個回歸到我們現在希望能夠比較完整的話就是說你不要用承認這兩個這個詞但是不要用認定這個詞來去做整個比較完整的這一個方向"},{"start":3182.776,"end":3195.996,"text":"教育部的說法是不管是承認或是認定或是什麼基本上他們認為在本質上他們就會做這樣的事情所以在文字上面不需要特別把它做一個圖顯了那大家委員看一下嘛"},{"start":3200.622,"end":3213.187,"text":"其實這樣子,就是我們因為七條之二的第一項其實已經有講說是為了健全職業...因為積極輔導相關賽事制運動員公會團體成立了嘛第一項已經成立的這些運動員公會團體前項這些公會團體是輔導、講助、補助嘛所以就沒有成立的問題了所以第一項已經都成立了嘛"},{"start":3223.291,"end":3242.324,"text":"所以我們第二項就是針對這些已經成立的已經被承認的團體或公會我們進行輔導、講助、補助跟其他事情這樣比較單純啦沒有啦我覺得其他的委員就是其實要讓這個文字裡面大家不要就是一望就知道就是很明確的嘛那剛剛大家已經有"},{"start":3243.004,"end":3243.224,"text":"第七條之二為健全"},{"start":3262.944,"end":3290.367,"text":"職業與業餘運動業之發展中央主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員、工會或團體成立前項運動員、工會或團體之輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之好不好文字上沒有問題那我們就修正後通過好不好來很好七字三那我們附帶訣也不用了七字三來我們來看七字三七字三好"},{"start":3294.537,"end":3301.495,"text":"我們73的問題來各位委員有沒有誰有意見我們把73放進來好不好就73之多有關於這個"},{"start":3303.365,"end":3326.814,"text":"防堵的機制當然還有包括委員有提到一些所謂的懲罰的一個條款然後大家先看一下我們對照條文七支三的部分來七支三好長現在又開始嗎我們現在看到題會討論的版本嘛好不好大家看一下我不要念了嘛這個A4紙都已經四分之三的文字了大家看一下有意見的請舉手"},{"start":3328.974,"end":3355.441,"text":"張雅玲委員、林益謹委員好不好來我們先看一下來先雅玲我想就是在針對有更正有更正這73以A4的為主啦她這個提案條本A4的在哪裡我們先看一下每個委員都有相關資料跟你們的提案版本不一樣是不是新的新的新的給大家"},{"start":3358.191,"end":3360.393,"text":"7.3中央主管機關應制定並推動防制運動賭博政策,輔導職業與業餘運動團體建立防制運動賭博之信託基金機制及辦理。"},{"start":3387.554,"end":3402.426,"text":"以強暴、脅迫、詐訴或其他非法之方法,法案運動競技賽事之公平者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以上、三千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":3403.507,"end":3423.041,"text":"審判前項之罪因而至人與死者處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑各得併科新台幣兩千萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金三人以上共同犯第二項之罪者處三年以上十年以下有期"},{"start":3423.982,"end":3434.626,"text":"徒刑得病科新台病2000萬元以上5000萬以下罰金第二項及前項之未遂犯罰之第二項運動競技賽事範圍如下一、職業運動聯盟舉辦之職業運動賽事二、特定體育團體舉辦之企業運動聯賽"},{"start":3444.73,"end":3463.419,"text":"其他經中央主管機關公告之與運動產業發展有關之重要運動基金賽事不管怎麼樣大家討論我還是要給予體育署終於拿出這個很具象的哪一些的賽事我們之前說實在的也是說了很久了我們今天才看到最後看到的出來"},{"start":3465.388,"end":3488.286,"text":"現在終於拿到了我們拿這個A4版本大家來做討論好不好之前你可以對照一下我們七四三四我們要求他們提出來是都沒有今天有把這三大項裡面大家可以看得出來有啦職業運動啦特定體育團體舉辦的企業運動聯賽還有中央主管公告與運動產業相關的有起碼很具象的提出來了那個第二款那個企業運動聯賽把它修正為企業聯賽了"},{"start":3490.748,"end":3494.489,"text":"感謝召委包括相關的罰款金額以及刑期都有加重本席予以肯定也有放入要求建立"},{"start":3518.255,"end":3540.175,"text":"防止運動賭博的信託基金的機制這本期予以肯定但我們在七支我的版本七支二裡面是有再提到一個就是說擁有運動經營權法人團體代表等主動配合檢調調查如果說有隱匿抗拒的話那處相關的一個罰緩的一個部分那在這個"},{"start":3542.316,"end":3557.003,"text":"教育部、體育署這個版本裡面是沒有把它放入那我是不是討論一下我覺得說因為過去到現在的這個樣態裡面還是有當然可能會難度越來越高可是過去畢竟是有這個詐騙集團直接去經營球團"},{"start":3558.524,"end":3586.013,"text":"那這樣子的痛我們不能再發生所以我還是希望是說能夠針對這個經營者的一個部分當然我相信百分之九十九都是善良經營者但是如果說真的有檢調要進入到調查的話相關的法人、團體、代表應該都要主動配合辦理那也要有相關的一個行則以上 謝謝好 有關經營者的部分來 我們林德福委員 關於張雅琳委員那個 好 我們好"},{"start":3587.608,"end":3611.35,"text":"好 謝謝我想這次的整個運動產業發展條例的一些修法因為我們過去發生很多職業籃球員甚至於射擊打假球、地下遷讀這些不法的案件造成民眾對我國運動競賽的賽事信任度大幅度的下滑"},{"start":3612.071,"end":3615.454,"text":"委員蔡易餘等19人擬具《運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案》、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具"},{"start":3632.291,"end":3644.443,"text":"灰頭柱標的職業運動並不受其範圍如果發生遷土放水將面臨是否可以適用處罰的餘地本席認為現行運動產業發展條例需要加以修改以維護運動賽事"},{"start":3651.587,"end":3678.848,"text":"禁忌的公平性保護運動產業善良的發展避免地下遷讀來影響整個職業業餘整個運動的發展本席所提的版本條文字號與其他版本不同但是本席不會堅持用自己的版本只要修法能夠防範地下遷讀讓運動產業更好本席都會支持此外"},{"start":3680.389,"end":3694.691,"text":"執辦公會、籃球公會所提的一些修法的建議本席也認為教育部、法務部要把這些意見給聽進去比如說明文來訂定政府應制定職業運動防堵的政策"},{"start":3695.732,"end":3704.038,"text":"並向學校學校端來深化相關的法治教育那針對目前整個運採條例沒有辦法覆蓋之國內熱門的賽事如運採未開盤之"},{"start":3710.982,"end":3731.233,"text":"少數職棒的賽事、籃球聯賽、企業足賽還有企業排球以致於學生賽事等等都比照運產條例來設計提高相關的罰則以嚇阻這些意圖操縱賽事不孝的分子希望運動產業發展條例能夠順利修法以進行國內產業的發展以上 謝謝"},{"start":3739.669,"end":3750.355,"text":"好 謝謝林德福委員他不堅持但是他充分的表達對於所謂的防堵機制上面要嚴格的駕馭防堵了解接下來是陳培瑜委員、張雅玲委員、林一錦委員謝謝"},{"start":3755.837,"end":3785.197,"text":"好 謝謝主席那個在七之三的第三行我想要加入本來是輔導職業與業餘運動團體對嗎我要加入一個運動員團體因為現在的基金是公會在管理不是聯盟可是按照現在的寫法其實是聯盟所以要把運動團體改成業餘運動員團體這個請注意然後再來第二項以強暴脅迫詐術要加上一個利誘"},{"start":3786.518,"end":3796.55,"text":"那個周思齊現在在看直播他交代我們利誘是一個很常用的手段所以在在入法的時候可不可以把利誘放上去謝謝"},{"start":3798.16,"end":3825.524,"text":"那可能還要再加一下順著培瑜委員的話也業餘運動員團體好不好順便一下有沒有第二條輔導職業與業餘運動員團體建立防制運動這樣才跟前面才會互相的呼應然後希望能夠以強迫、頓耗、脅迫、頓耗、詐數、頓耗、利誘或其他非法之方法這個運動員最清楚他們所承受的辛苦來"},{"start":3826.284,"end":3838.863,"text":"壓力委員其實我也是延續一樣因為我想說因為我自己這樣一路看這些他們還有招待喝花酒嘛請客嘛沒有因為這東西他現在好像似乎沒有辦法列入在這個裡面嘛所以我是"},{"start":3840.791,"end":3866.583,"text":"其實如果請他去吃飯呢或是他丟一點那時候就是周思齊的案例不是給他錢嗎就是我也是認同啦就是應該加入利誘這個事情啦OK那只是說如果我們修利誘進去的話我們的運彩條例是不是也要同步一起來修這是一個提醒那最後一個就是說在第二項的運動賽事範圍如下那個特定體育團體舉辦之企業聯賽我只想說要特地寫聯賽還是不能寫賽事嗎因為其他都是寫賽事為什麼這個特別寫聯賽"},{"start":3869.923,"end":3870.383,"text":"法制局法制局法制局委員"},{"start":3885.925,"end":3915.345,"text":"主席謝謝我想今天討論七之三喔特別在十二強棒球台灣拿到冠軍之後那有所謂的網紅在高台括論說他以前在做球棒的感覺喔全台灣人民很憤怒喔特別是我這種老球迷那所以防堵機制這個七之三的防堵機制相對更為重要喔那我想全國人民很關注那特別是職棒球員公會也有特別發聲喔希望運動賽事的這個防堵機制可以更健全"},{"start":3915.945,"end":3933.252,"text":"所以我想上次我們討論的重點就是在這個所謂的職業運動跟業餘的運動賽事的射程範圍因為運動賽事有大大小小有職業辦、職業業餘、企業聯賽、選運動力戰等等那我想將哪些賽事列入我想要請體育署務必要列清楚"},{"start":3934.032,"end":3961.892,"text":"我想今天寫的條文很多都是概括性的文字那到底是哪個賽事到時候可能要羅列清楚那包括法則的部分我想要有威懾性這個很重要因為這樣才有防堵的這個力量可是我想今天要訂這個法那我想處罰還是要符合比例原則那我這部分覺得等一下再請法務部做個說明那我們希望參照法務部的意見以上"},{"start":3969.829,"end":3989.924,"text":"第七條之三針對第二項強暴脅迫詐術為贊成加上利誘這樣的一個手段但是我要另外請教的是我們主管機關或者是法務部的代表針對這種刑事犯罪行為在立法體力上面如果是意圖盈利的話"},{"start":3990.805,"end":4008.293,"text":"通常會有加重期刑的規定這是為什麼臺灣民眾黨黨團我們一開始在針對這種非法行為太陽的時候我們寫得很細包括三人以上刑度要拉高這件事情也是我們當初所提出來的立法設計三人以上"},{"start":4009.793,"end":4029.884,"text":"去做這個事情基本上要處理組織性的犯罪形態但是你如果把它定義成犯罪組織現在組織犯罪防治條例某個程度上面認定嚴格的標準已經嚴格到快要沒有辦法適用了所以用三人以上的立法體力當初我們的設計是這樣但是"},{"start":4032.165,"end":4054.268,"text":"可是你們今天所提出來的建議條文把意圖盈利、要加重期刑的部分把它給刪了那我不知道實際上面的考慮是什麼因為在刑事處罰當中當你是意圖盈利去做這樣子的事情的時候那個刑事的可責性絕對是更高的"},{"start":4054.989,"end":4078.341,"text":"那我覺得意圖盈利去做這些事情的時候他的惡性更為重大在相應的刑事處罰上給他加重期刑我們認為是符合比例原則的只是我看到今天主管機關所提出來的條文把意圖盈利加重期刑的部分把它刪除掉實際上面的考慮到底是什麼可能等一下也要麻煩我們的主管機關回應一下還有沒有"},{"start":4082.284,"end":4102.671,"text":"那有關於剛剛所有的委員所提出來包括黃木凱委員他的條文裡面就提關有關經營者的這個層面還有黃國昌委員特別提到的意圖盈利的部分還有包括提到的賽事跟聯賽這個用詞用語這個層面還有剛剛林錦委員的這個不管是提到的這些相關的部分是不是請你們一併來作為說明好不好來"},{"start":4111.015,"end":4125.483,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到的我們這一次的修法希望能夠建構一個安全友善的競技環境來維護這一個運動員可以安心的來從事職業運動等等的生涯發展"},{"start":4126.825,"end":4146.481,"text":"原來這個關係文書所列的多數的版本的刑度都列在五年以下後來我們這個再仔細思考了以後今天修正的是運動產業發展條例是所有運動產業的基本法"},{"start":4147.242,"end":4159.832,"text":"那跟運動彩券發行條例運動彩券業只是運動產業裡面的一支的特別法那它被拉出來而且是立法立在前面"},{"start":4160.975,"end":4178.187,"text":"我們今天把這個基本法訂出來以後宣示一個剛剛各位委員、跨黨派都支持的就是要建構友善安全的運動競技環境所以我們的賽事也可能會包括到納入標的賽事"},{"start":4179.571,"end":4198.266,"text":"也可能不納入標的但是是對於運動產業發展全國各界關注的重要賽事所以這樣一個重要賽事如果被用強暴脅迫、詐欺或利誘利誘待會兒可能還可以請法務部來表示意見的這些"},{"start":4200.612,"end":4201.513,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":4217.656,"end":4244.85,"text":"6個月以上5年以下或是1年以上5年以下有期徒刑金拉高了很多那至於說本來有區分意圖盈利跟不意圖盈利那我們現在是把這樣的一個刑度拉高了以後未來就由司法機關去裁判的時候如果他有意圖盈利的也搭配後面的病科罰金他的裁量空間會比較大那因為這次的修法比較急迫那我們提到的是說"},{"start":4246.031,"end":4273.263,"text":"這一個運動產業發展條例的條文的構成要件那跟我們現在運採行之多年的構成要件盡量讓它一致那一致它的干擾的類型是一樣的那立法技術上就會比較成熟完整所以我們用的就不再做那個細部的區分那如果剛剛所提到的那個利誘的部分是不是可以請法務部來指教"},{"start":4274.58,"end":4299.995,"text":"所以你剛剛學到的意圖營利的部分你這個條件是跟那個運採的條例的體力是一樣的好等一下我們先請法務部主席各位委員還有次長、署長有關利誘是不是要放進我們這個構成要件裡面我們剛剛有查過相關過去的體力刑法裡面是沒有利誘這個用於當構成要件但是在陸海空軍刑法46條有"},{"start":4301.636,"end":4331.076,"text":"那大概就是這一個條文然後其他的大概就不是用刑罰的處罰那只有陸海空軍刑法的46條它有這個刑罰的構成要件是有放利誘那這樣利誘是不是可以放在其他非法之方法來看那其實主要如果把它放在其他非法之方法來看的話我們應該就是在實務解釋上可以來認定它是不是跟強暴脅迫、詐數相當的這個非法方法"},{"start":4331.476,"end":4332.619,"text":"誒!"},{"start":4334.875,"end":4363.075,"text":"合意利誘合意因為像如果是利誘的話就等於是只有比如說主頭來利誘球員那利誘這個行為人就只有主頭那受利誘的那個他就不是共同證犯但是我們這一條看起來如果用詐數他們雙方都可以是共犯的這個行為所以這個可能提出來給大家參考那另外有關這個刑責的部分"},{"start":4364.246,"end":4389.544,"text":"因為這次我們有三人以上共同犯之跟因而致重傷致人於死這個三項我們把它就是有分得層次分開這也符合我們過去刑法的加重的體力因為刑法的加重強制性交罪在222條第一項裡面他有兩人以上共同犯的他的刑度是一個層次那如果是"},{"start":4392.626,"end":4406.53,"text":"致死、致重傷在226條就有更加重的所以我們這次就一併參考也有提供給體育署、教育部參考所以他們都有調整了所以我們也贊同那另外還有302條之一的"},{"start":4409.511,"end":4427.351,"text":"防害自由的這部分也是有三人以上的犯罪是一到七年然後嬰兒致死就是無期徒刑十年以上嬰兒重傷五到十二年所以這次我們也有分層次那我們也是認為這樣比較符合體力那剛剛還有這個洪孟凱委員講到的"},{"start":4427.911,"end":4445.738,"text":"就是我們檢察官在進入司法調查之後如果認為這些財團法人代表人團體他們應該有主動配合調查的義務如果有引力抗拒查證屬實有行政裁罰的這個部分這個部分我們提一個"},{"start":4446.718,"end":4468.597,"text":"我們看這個條文是有一點點奇怪因為既然已經進入司法偵查程序其實檢察官有強制如果他不配合檢察官是有強制處分有我們可以做的刑事訴訟給我們的強制處分的權利來做後續的偵查處理那如果因為他引義抗拒然後行政機關再跳出來做行政調查這看起來有"},{"start":4469.077,"end":4470.297,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":4498.346,"end":4498.766,"text":"民眾黨特別非常在乎的"},{"start":4516.871,"end":4527.8,"text":"這個我們就是尊重主管機關所以你說了老半天利誘這兩個字你們說了老半天陸海空軍刑法是有是有再說其他的沒有其他沒有"},{"start":4530.176,"end":4555.031,"text":"孟楷委員剛剛這樣的一個解釋說明我可以接受不堅持後面因為如果說我們重點在於是不要再發生過去那樣的樣態那但是如果說你現在講是說已經有這個形式已經介入檢察官已經有更強硬的手段可以要求配合的話那你說處不處罰的這個罰環的一個部分那罰環要多少這可能我們就可以再討論那這一點我不堅持不過"},{"start":4556.874,"end":4576.612,"text":"因為我也有在意圖盈利的這個部分要加重期刑二分之一所以我也認為是說這應該要把它給放入為什麼其實你看喔如果說真的有意圖盈利的情況因為我們這邊前面討論是說非法手段來防範運動競技賽事公平那它可能還是會有"},{"start":4577.513,"end":4588.321,"text":"這個情節的情種一個是牠是牽扯到賭盤、賭金的一個部分那一個可能是牠不一定有牽扯到賭盤、賭金但是也許是牽扯到比如說對戰組合、桌隊廝殺或可能我這一場"},{"start":4591.67,"end":4592.311,"text":"委員林德福等21人擬具"},{"start":4611.974,"end":4639.344,"text":"我國法令是絕對不允許有任何人用任何非法手段去介入公平的運動賽事那如果說你後面的目的還是用盈利的話那我們就加重二分之一所以我認為說是不是加重二分之一這個是可以把它給放入讓更多人看到這一點條文的時候其實是可以很明白的理解就是你要盈利的話你要賺錢不好意思不要來干涉不要來把你的黑手深入到我們的運動賽事好 以上謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":4642.947,"end":4671.753,"text":"剛剛這位官員所講的不好意思那個處長剛剛處長所講的事情我不是聽不懂但我要跟處長分享的幾個事情是第一個在我國刑事處罰的體力上意圖盈利本來就是一個提高刑度基本上面的法定構成要件那因此特別是在這一種打假球"},{"start":4674.022,"end":4701.103,"text":"因為要盈利而去做這件事情在惡性上如果你不透過法定型的提高沒有辦法適度的去評價他對於法規範秩序所造成的迫害因為你跟其他的脈絡相比大家都會問一件事為什麼在其他脈絡的時候只要涉及到意圖盈利法定型就往上了"},{"start":4702.287,"end":4728.379,"text":"反而在這個脈絡的時候我們立法者的決斷竟然是不需要提高讓法院自己依照刑法第57條各款的要件去在法定裁量的裡面去做調整事實上我必須要說的事情是如果反而是在這一種為了要去懲治要去賺那種錢而去搞這一種事情傷害運動員的人"},{"start":4731.164,"end":4754.315,"text":"反而在法規上面你不加重其刑而是把它回到所謂法院量刑裡面的評價恐怕啦在整個規範的體力上面跟現行整個刑事處罰的規範體力不符那第二個立法者在這件事情所做成的評價那可能也會傳遞"},{"start":4756.178,"end":4784.826,"text":"一些錯誤的訊息那其實法條的構造並不困難其實法條的構造並不困難因為我知道你們心裡面在想的是說三人以上我已經有加重了嘛但是我要跟大家說明的事情是說在這種犯罪形態之下你要回去想喔如果你沒有辦法在訴訟上沒有辦法去證明他是三人以上一起幹的話那你就要回到第一項了"},{"start":4785.994,"end":4808.989,"text":"當你回到第一項的時候有辦法證明意圖盈利跟沒有辦法你在法定型回到本來的原則上面那恐怕不是簡單的一句說交給法官依照具體個案裁量就可以處理的事情那我們法制處您再補充一下"},{"start":4811.619,"end":4836.053,"text":"謝謝委員提到我們提到說運產條例它基本上當時就是為了要防止賭博這是大宗的類型所以用強暴脅迫、詐欺其他非法的方法防害運動競技的本身它有一點抽象為嫌犯的概念就是說你做這件事一百年九十九年都是在做賭博的"},{"start":4836.753,"end":4860.374,"text":"所以我就直接把你刑度拉高了他內部就隱含著多數的類型就是有高度不好的內涵所以他才會定一年以上七年以下那我們提到剛剛提到的就是說那我們今天新立一個法律的條文要不要創設跟運採條例的構成要件不一樣的加多一個盈利跟不盈利的區分"},{"start":4861.235,"end":4888.096,"text":"那本來原來的設想是說因為時間也比較急迫所以是不是用比較成熟的運產條例的這個構成要件都跟他一樣我們剛剛提到的原先的刑度都只有五年以下但我們現在是把他拉到七年以下那委員的意見說就分啊盈利的就五年以下七年以下那這個不盈利的是不是要輕一點那我們剛剛提到的是說"},{"start":4894.564,"end":4902.113,"text":"提到的就是說就有點像運彩一樣他即使是運動彩券他多了一個妨礙運動彩券發行的秩序"},{"start":4903.635,"end":4921.557,"text":"即使營利跟不營利的他並不區分的所以我剛特別提到的是說他已經有一個一年以上七年以下的積聚嘛那這個本來就是看你犯罪的形態手段惡不惡劣然後人數多不多危害跟你的企圖動機影不影響所以"},{"start":4922.758,"end":4941.434,"text":"我必須這樣提就是說我們在很快的時間內要擬出一個大家共識而且執行比較無礙的條文那我們的建議是因為我們提列出來的是非投注標的賽事但它的重要性在運動產業發展上跟投注標的類似所以用相同的構成來解決"},{"start":4941.994,"end":4946.278,"text":"我們好 我先說一下我們等一下休息五分鐘大家再做一個討論其實剛剛法務部都是尊重那我也尊重處長的說法我想國昌委員和剛剛洪孟凱委員只是在目前為止大家對於這個所謂的賭是深痛無絕"},{"start":4960.39,"end":4975.161,"text":"那你這個東西或許在運產的部分裡面並沒有提出這樣的部分那我們意圖引力只是更能夠凸顯出我們在修這個法的時候我們展現出實質的一個態度如果它跟你這個體力上沒有太過違法"},{"start":4975.962,"end":4997.23,"text":"我個人認為說不是運財如何我們這邊就要配合來做說不定你把這個意圖營利這一條放進去的時候運財說不定在下次修法的時候也會配合這樣的做法然後把它更凸顯出來這是我們的看法我們這邊休息五分鐘大家做一個溝通好不好五分鐘之後我們再來做最後的一個決議可以嗎我們先溝通一下"},{"start":6129.69,"end":6142.681,"text":"那是你駕駛,但你不要想要把手伸進來,因為如果說我們現在沒有修的話,那這樣子...好來,我們七之三的部分,我們剛剛經過休息協商之後"},{"start":6143.855,"end":6171.796,"text":"顯然大家還是有一些的歧見但是我還是用做最後的努力希望我們今天因為我們不管是七之一、七之二都有一個共識七之三的部分我們還是希望各委員今天還是能夠把他送出委員會然後可以盡量把他出來所以我們是不是最後顯然就是在這個有關意圖營利的這個層面當中那個國昌委員跟孟凱委員認為可以把意圖營利或三人以上這個部分就是"},{"start":6173.317,"end":6181.101,"text":"把意圖營利這個部分放到這個部分來但是教育部的法制處顯然認為說這樣的做法在行政的橫評上面會有一些的疑慮那我們是針對最後這個部分裡面我們在最後的溝通財委其實我們剛剛在中間的溝通我覺得感覺因為法務部已經覺得說可以接受、尊重"},{"start":6197.529,"end":6221.118,"text":"那教育部的法務局的部分應該是也認為說你只要把它說明清楚立法說明清楚應該是可以接受在我們一、二、三、四第四款就是說意圖營利或三人以上共犯第二項之罪這樣子的部分我覺得是不是還是因為為什麼我們再一次強調說我們在這一次的修法就是我們要"},{"start":6222.401,"end":6223.122,"text":"以加重處分來嚇阻犯刑"},{"start":6237.881,"end":6265.358,"text":"這個我覺得因為我們今天這個協商之前其實已經討論過了一次了那我們今天的精神最主要就是全部都要加重所以先天今天這個教育部拿提出來的提惠版本就是重點在強暴、脅迫、詐欺或其他非法執法我們都是加重處罰不管是刑度還是罰金那所以以今天的提惠版本的刑度已經是一上七下已經比我們上次在這裡討論的時候是加重了"},{"start":6267.159,"end":6296.405,"text":"那因為民眾黨團原先的提案原來的版本沒有加重的一般的就是強迫威脅詐數是六個月以上五年以下尤其徒刑然後如果意圖盈利竟然要加重的話加重期二分之一加完是九個月以上7.5年以下其實比我們現在光是講強暴脅迫詐數還沒有加重到的就還要低了刑度還要低了那現在突然提出來說硬土盈利加重"},{"start":6298.004,"end":6323.62,"text":"跟上次的這個版本差這麼多本來是六個月以上而已所以我會覺得說我還是希望說我們今天這個體會版本可以先出去因為這個已經討論過今天不是第一次討論大家對這個刑度加重是有高度共識的所以今天體會來版本已經加重了嘛大家看一下各位原先的版本都沒有到一上七下這麼高喔罰金也是來都已經加重是"},{"start":6324.46,"end":6348.556,"text":"德併科罰金是一千萬以上三千萬以下罰金這都是符合我們上一次討論的時候要求要去加重所以我會覺得說剛剛這個益土利是不是要進來加重這可以討論但是離上次的這個版本差太多了你原先的這個刑度最低是六個月以上好還有沒有那個國鄉委員過來是雅琳委員好"},{"start":6355.472,"end":6381.188,"text":"說明一下第一項在不涉及意圖盈利的情況下把法定行動依上膝下我們竟表同意我一點意見都沒有但是為什麼我們剛剛一直在處理意圖盈利的事情是在刑事法律的世界裡面當意圖盈利而去做一些事情的時候"},{"start":6382.13,"end":6399.484,"text":"他的法定型本來就是會拉高的所以拿不同的版本的出發點來比事實上並不是在討論這個問題的本質這個問題的本質是我們的出發點是第一項在這一種行為太陽下"},{"start":6401.573,"end":6426.629,"text":"基本款的行為太陽下一上七下大家都認同這個沒有問題現在在思考的層次是在這個基本款上面如果你因為意圖盈利而做這件事情的時候是不是應該要加重處罰那我們剛剛所在講的是我理解就是說可能教育部這邊"},{"start":6428.834,"end":6429.194,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":6444.568,"end":6445.088,"text":"委員陳培瑜等21人擬具"},{"start":6463.881,"end":6482.057,"text":"10年以下有期凸顯那為什麼3人以上犯我們要加重處罰因為我們認為3人以上犯他對於法益侵害威脅的程度跟可責性的程度會比較高那但是如果今天我是因為意圖盈利來出力"},{"start":6483.004,"end":6503.275,"text":"我意圖盈利來處理即使沒有三人以上犯那以我們大家目前社會上也好、球員也好對這種事情深惡痛絕的程度直接把它放在意圖盈利或三人以上共同犯第二項之罪處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑我們基本上會認為說這樣子的話"},{"start":6505.456,"end":6533.725,"text":"其他的規範其他的規範我們要考慮的事情通通都可以涵蓋在這裡面而不是在任何的情就是說用意圖盈利按照一般的體力全部都加加二分之一剛剛我們在討論希望能夠有一個大家彼此之間有共識的方向的建制基礎是在這裡還有沒有其他的意見來張雅琳委員"},{"start":6534.824,"end":6562.332,"text":"我想確認一件事情就是說因為我們最主要就是希望去加重刑罰來達到一個宣誓我們要打擊這些賭博 對不對這些...好 過兩話嗎沒事 請說好 就是我們要打擊這些犯罪嘛那我想確認一件事情因為其實我們這次基本上的東西都已經是提升提高這個刑罰那我想再確認在我們這次今年修這個兒童性影像性剝削這個性影像的時候"},{"start":6562.992,"end":6583.564,"text":"我們是不是也有針對意圖盈利散播的地方我記得那時候的討論也是有在討論是不是要罰得更高更重但是因為後來法務部跟司法院的意見都是有考量到一個很平性的問題那我想我們是不是也是要去考慮到在這件事情的修法上面我們是的確要建立一個我們打擊犯罪的形象但是我們還是要回應到法律的實務上面一個很平性的問題好 那個吳佩儀委員"},{"start":6589.805,"end":6609.302,"text":"我還是想要強調說加重處罰、加重刑度、加重罰金這些我們通通都支持跟認同那意圖盈利這個我們當然深惡痛絕因為這個最後造成的傷害都是對於選手的傷害所以如果要把它加進來加重處罰跟三人以上共犯這些一起來加重"},{"start":6609.662,"end":6633.136,"text":"我覺得可以來討論但我還是希望因為我要強調的是今天的體會版本已經離民眾黨的第一次的版本這個的加重處罰都比它還要高了我是希望說下一次可不可以你在提案的時候你一開始就兼加重啊不要到已經協商最後一刻才提出一個之前沒討論過的版本這就花大家很多的時間我是希望可以這樣大家互相尊重好 那我們最後是不是鄭署長同意"},{"start":6642.231,"end":6665.221,"text":"來 所以目前為止因為那個我們尊重剛剛張雅禮委員也特別提到兒童性剝削的時候其實在這個議題上面其實還有特別提到橫貧的問題我剛剛也特別提到橫貧的問題然後佩儀委員也認為說大家認為對於這些深通誤覺裏面意圖犯罪部分大家都有各三黨都有一個共識但是還是仍然希望說在我們提出討論的時候大家能夠在這個落差上面"},{"start":6666.441,"end":6672.704,"text":"立法院朝野黨協商：一、本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條之一條文草案》、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具"},{"start":6688.331,"end":6688.931,"text":"委員蔡易餘等19人擬具"},{"start":6718.82,"end":6725.146,"text":"我剛剛有提一個附帶決議就是希望好來好73附帶決議沒問題針對運動產業發展條例73條所稱是職業運動賽事企業聯賽具體定義然後我們希望體育署在三讀後六個月內完成相關辦法跟規定"},{"start":6735.403,"end":6749.768,"text":"這體育署有沒有問題因為你要把它做一個定義吧只有改兩個字就是相關辦法改成相關規定因為我們只能定行政規則好 沒有問題可是你們給我們的版本裡面是寫職業運動賽事跟企業運動聯賽所以我們現在確定一下名字應該就是改成職業運動賽事跟企業聯賽對職業運動賽事跟那所以是長成這樣囉署長你看那我們是不是再看一下最後的條文"},{"start":6769.02,"end":6776.707,"text":"政本那邊我們剛剛都有簽字嘛剛剛培育委員那一塊所以把你這個辦法改成規定好這樣可以嗎好所以我們73附帶決議就政本在哪裡我們看一下好不好"},{"start":6787.691,"end":6799.299,"text":"好 你們先處理一下那個附帶決議那我們第七條之三就在我們剛剛上面所看到的螢幕上所看到的部分我們就是修正通過那附帶決議的正本是不是給我們"},{"start":6803.462,"end":6806.525,"text":"附帶決議裏面我念一下陳培瑜的附帶決議裏面就針對運動產業發展條例第七之三條所稱之職業運動賽事企業聯賽之具體定義以及輔導運動員團體建立防制運動賭博之信託基金機制之相關規定體育署應於三讀後六個月內完成這樣OK吧"},{"start":6827.583,"end":6833.928,"text":"好 那我們這個附帶決議就通過然後我還是因為我們7至2已經修正通過所以原審查會保留的附帶決議這一案我們就是不予通過好不好 7至2的部分好 那接下來本席做這樣的一個決定那我想這個我們協商的結論就是增訂第七條之二增訂第七條之三修正通過 如後我們這個修正通過還有通過協商新收附帶決議共一項"},{"start":6855.766,"end":6857.126,"text":"原審查會保留附帶決議供一案是不予通過其餘均照審查會審查結果通過檢附立法說明一份"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:06+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:15.057429+08:00","text":"報告委員會，現在開始進行野保法的協商。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:15.057429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:24.114858+08:00","text":"上次的審查結論保留了 4個條文，分別是第十九\n條、第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第五十一條之一，此外，也保留了 1 項附帶決議，這幾個\n條文要交付黨團協商，所以今天我們就針對這幾個保留的條文進行協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:24.114858+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:33.172288+08:00","text":"首先從第十九條開始，農業部的代表要再說明嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:33.172288+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:42.229717+08:00","text":"林業署。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:42.229717+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:51.287146+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:51.287146+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:00.344575+08:00","text":"針對上次被保留的第十九條及第二十一條，我們說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:00.344575+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:09.402005+08:00","text":"第十九\n條的部分，我們針對金屬獸鋏是全面禁用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:09.402005+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:18.459434+08:00","text":"另外也接受委員的建議，納入原本的炸藥及爆裂物\n的使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:18.459434+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:27.516863+08:00","text":"還有一個是所謂的金屬套索，考量到農民或原住民族的獵人在實務上還是會有需要，\n但是我們也考量到它可能會誤捕到像是黑熊之類的瀕危物種，所以我們希望特定規格，也就是\n大口徑的套索，可以透過一定時間的溝通之後能夠禁用，但是不宜全面禁用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:27.516863+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:36.574292+08:00","text":"第二十一條的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:36.574292+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:45.631722+08:00","text":"好，那就是第十九條。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:45.631722+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:54.689151+08:00","text":"各位委員，請問對於第十九條的內容及文字有沒有什麼意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:54.689151+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:03.746580+08:00","text":"我向大家再補充說明一下，上\n次討論的時候，大家對於獸鋏的部分其實是有兩派不同的意見及看法，有部分的委員認為應該\n要全面禁用金屬套索，然而我們也考量到原住民族的傳統狩獵及農民的防治獸害，其實某種程\n度上都還是有使用金屬套索的需求，不過農業部正在推廣改良式的獸鋏，今天他們也特別……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:03.746580+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:12.804009+08:00","text":"改良式獵具。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:12.804009+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:21.861439+08:00","text":"370\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:21.861439+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:30.918868+08:00","text":"改良式的金屬套索，今天也特地將實品帶到現場，讓各位委員能夠清楚了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:30.918868+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:39.976297+08:00","text":"我認為兼具兩\n者不同的立場，建議是不是就維持行政院原來的條文內容，請問各位委員可以接受嗎？接受。可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:39.976297+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:49.033726+08:00","text":"好，謝謝各位委員的支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:49.033726+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:58.091156+08:00","text":"第十九條就按照行政院的提案條文通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:58.091156+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:07.148585+08:00","text":"接下來要討論第二十一條，農業部還有建議的條文，是不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:07.148585+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:16.206014+08:00","text":"第二十一條的部分，上次經過委員大家的討論，我們接受委員的意見，有關於第一項\n排除的部分，第十九條第一項本來是第一款也排除，但是我們現在認為第一項的炸藥及其他爆\n裂物不能例外使用，因此，第二十一條及第二十一條之一的款次就要變成「不受第十九條第一\n項第二款至第六款」，這是第二十一條及第二十一條之一在第一項的部分與我們修正的建議，\n以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:16.206014+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:25.263443+08:00","text":"各位委員，第二十一條及第二十一條之一就是款次的調整、文字上做一些調整，請問大家有\n沒有意見？沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:33:25.263443+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:34.320873+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：是先討論第二十一條嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:34.320873+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:43.378302+08:00","text":"第二十一條，對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:43.378302+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:52.435731+08:00","text":"第二十一條之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:33:52.435731+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:01.493160+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為你剛才有提到第二十一條之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:01.493160+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:10.550590+08:00","text":"兩個情形是一致的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:10.550590+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:19.608019+08:00","text":"兩個是一樣的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:19.608019+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:28.665448+08:00","text":"因為我們把炸藥列為禁止的項目之一，所以它的條次款項要做一些調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:28.665448+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:37.722877+08:00","text":"就是在緊急獵捕需要的時候，我們也不可以使用炸藥，第一款就要排除不能用，所以\n炸藥是全面禁用，即使緊急的狀況也不可以使用，這是第二十一條的規定，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:37.722877+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:46.780307+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，我補充說明一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:34:46.780307+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:55.837736+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我對第二十一條沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:55.837736+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:04.895165+08:00","text":"第二十一條有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:04.895165+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:13.952594+08:00","text":"沒有意見的話，第二十一條就照農業部提供的建議條文修正通過，\n好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:13.952594+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:23.010024+08:00","text":"可以喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:23.010024+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:32.067453+08:00","text":"我們是否需要再讀一次？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:32.067453+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:41.124882+08:00","text":"請議事人員宣讀第二十一條的修正文字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:41.124882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:50.182311+08:00","text":"第二十一條  野生動物有下列情形之一者，得予以獵捕或宰殺，不受第十七條第一項、第十八條\n第一項及第十九條第一項第二款至第六款規定之限制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:50.182311+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:59.239741+08:00","text":"但保育類野生動物除情況緊急\n外，應先報請主管機關處理：\n一、有危及公共安全或人類性命之虞。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:59.239741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:08.297170+08:00","text":"二、危害農林作物、家禽、家畜或水產養殖。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:08.297170+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:17.354599+08:00","text":"三、傳播疾病或病蟲害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:17.354599+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:26.412028+08:00","text":"371\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n四、有妨礙航空安全之虞。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:26.412028+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:35.469458+08:00","text":"五、其他經主管機關核准之情形。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:35.469458+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:44.526887+08:00","text":"保育類野生動物有危害農林作物、家禽、家畜或水產養殖，在緊急情況下，未及\n報請主管機關處理者，得以主管機關核定之人道方式予以獵捕或宰殺以防治危害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:44.526887+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:53.584316+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，第二十一條是不是就照農業部建議的條文文字修正通過，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:53.584316+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:02.641745+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:02.641745+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:11.699175+08:00","text":"接下來是第二十一條之一，這條也是因為第十九條第一項所列的方法，所以我們也是就文字\n上做一些調整，請議事人員唸一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:11.699175+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:20.756604+08:00","text":"第二十一條之一  臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用，而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野\n生動物之必要者，不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項第二\n款至第六款規定之限制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:20.756604+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:29.814033+08:00","text":"第二項「前項獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准或備查；\n其申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形，申\n請程序、應檢附文件、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域、管\n理及其他應遵行事項之辦法，由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。」","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:29.814033+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:38.871462+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，第二十一條之一是否就照這樣的文字修正通過？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:38.871462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:47.928892+08:00","text":"伍麗華委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:47.928892+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:56.986321+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我也說明一下，這次的修法其實是為了回應司法院大法官對於\n獵人王光祿案做出的釋字 803 號解釋，因此在第二十一條之一增列了非營利自用的要件，納入\n了原住民的獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物的除罪化範圍，將它改採備查制，原住民獵捕野生動物\n以行政處罰取代刑罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:56.986321+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:06.043750+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，我在上個會期就已經做過提案、也溝通過，基於大法官\n解釋是對於原住民狩獵權的維護、也基於民間社會提倡的人道考量，對於全面禁用獸鋏，後來\n本席是予以尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:38:06.043750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:15.101179+08:00","text":"既然大法官作出解釋，我們的修法內容也符合它的解釋意旨，因此以行政罰\n替代刑罰的部分，我對於這個條文的文字修正不堅持，但我就是要確保在法令落實的操作過程\n中，就與過去的獵槍一樣，不會因為法條創造的一個模糊空間，到時候讓檢察官及法官會有不\n同的解釋，所以我很堅持在第二十一條之一，只要是原住民基於傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用\n，而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要，不管獵具的類別或野生動物的類別，都不要用刑罰\n處罰，並在第二項訂定原住民獵捕野生動物所應遵循的辦法，這個部分我一定要再次的強調，\n謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:38:15.101179+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:24.158608+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：現行的第二十一條之一有幾個部分，第一個，過去現行的條文只有寫傳\n統文化及祭儀兩個部分，因為原住民基本法在 94 年 2 月 5 日公布施行之後一直沒有修法，雖然\n我們在第 8 屆、第 9 屆、第 10 屆一直都有提案，但是也一直都沒有通過，所以我在 105 年就透\n過相關的解釋……可能更早吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:38:24.158608+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:33.216038+08:00","text":"106 年的解釋包含了原基法所謂的非營利自用，事實上，這個部\n372\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n分在 106 年之後有「非營利自用」就已經可以了。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:38:33.216038+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:42.273467+08:00","text":"第二個，之前提到所有的案子都要經過核准，這是不合理的，所以我改為備查。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:38:42.273467+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:51.330896+08:00","text":"既然你們現\n在把核准與備查都列在這個條文裡，那麼子法一定要考量到實際的需求，像我們在原鄉還要下\n山給你們核准，事實上就是勞民傷財。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:38:51.330896+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:00.388325+08:00","text":"現在就是文字的統一性，我們可以看看後面的條文，包括其他法律的條文，由於之前這條是\n單獨的修正，因此我建議可以將「臺灣原住民族」的「臺灣」2 個字刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:39:00.388325+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:09.445755+08:00","text":"其實後面的條文也只\n有寫「原住民族」、其他的法律條文也都只有寫「原住民族」，譬如原住民族基本法，而不是\n臺灣原住民族基本法；譬如原住民族委員會，而不是臺灣原住民族委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:39:09.445755+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:18.503184+08:00","text":"包括其他的法律都\n是寫「原住民族」，因為是我們自己的法律，當然是指臺灣的原住民，不會是國外的原住民，\n我們去看後面的條文就有了，以上建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:18.503184+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:27.560613+08:00","text":"剛剛伍委員的提案其實已經在待會要討論的第五十一條之一處理了，至於鄭天財委員\n的建議，我們就遵照辦理，把「臺灣」2個字刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:27.560613+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:36.618042+08:00","text":"法務部有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:36.618042+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:45.675472+08:00","text":"林參事豐文：尊重……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:39:45.675472+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:54.732901+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：第五十一條之一就是只有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:54.732901+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:03.790330+08:00","text":"基於法律的一致性，第二十一條之一的「臺灣」2 個字刪除，一樣就是寫「原住民族……」\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:03.790330+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:12.847759+08:00","text":"後面的修正文字是不是就照原來的提案通過，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:12.847759+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:21.905189+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:21.905189+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:30.962618+08:00","text":"應該是照農業部的修正建議條\n文通過，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:30.962618+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:40.020047+08:00","text":"接下來要討論第二十五條，因為第二十五條是由洪孟楷委員等人提案，逕付二讀，並沒有在\n委員會裡有過討論，所以我們現在把它放進來討論，洪孟楷委員也在現場，是不是請洪委員說\n明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:40.020047+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:49.077476+08:00","text":"感謝召委！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:49.077476+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:58.134906+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，雖然現行條文已經表示要經中央主管機關同意，但是從過\n去到現在，我們也看到輸入保育類野生動物或相關產製品時發生過一些爭議，在這樣的爭議情\n況下，還是會令人質疑到底中央主管機關把關的部分夠不夠嚴謹及充分，因此，我才會加上「\n應具環境教育機構之資格，並經中央主管機關同意。」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:58.134906+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:41:07.192335+08:00","text":"其實主要是在於保育類野生動物，並\n非一般動物，而是保育類野生動物。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:41:07.192335+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:41:16.249764+08:00","text":"再加上雖然行政部門提到這些機關可能會有學術交流等等\n的部分，但是就保育類野生動物而言，是不是有那麼頻繁的需要做輸入輸出的狀況，我想這也\n是值得商榷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:41:16.249764+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:41:25.307193+08:00","text":"因此，是不是大家可以研究一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:41:25.307193+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:41:34.364623+08:00","text":"或者主管機關是不是在相關的立法說明或怎麼\n樣能夠有一些比較嚴謹的規定，不要讓過去發生過的弊端再次發生，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:41:34.364623+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:41:43.422052+08:00","text":"報告委員，關於委員建議加入「具環境教育機構之資格」，就我們去查現有大專院校\n研究機構的部分，大多都不是屬於環境教育機構。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:41:43.422052+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:41:52.479481+08:00","text":"基本上，如果要加上這樣的要件，這個最主\n要是為學術交流目的而來，所以目前我們在輸入的時候都會做相當的審核，而且是要基於學術\n教育等公共目的及用途，在通過我們很嚴格的審查之後，它才可以輸入，因此，建議是不是維\n373\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n持我們目前的審查機制、維持現在的現行條文？以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:41:52.479481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:01.536910+08:00","text":"請問其他委員有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:01.536910+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:10.594340+08:00","text":"陳亭妃委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:10.594340+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:19.651769+08:00","text":"我想農業部也做了很清楚的說明，因此，我覺得還是維持行政院版本的建議條文。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:19.651769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:28.709198+08:00","text":"主席，我可不可以稍微補充一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:28.709198+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:37.766627+08:00","text":"剛剛洪委員所提到的，當然增加「具環境教育機構\n之資格」會造成更多制度的審查，但因為我們是要經中央主管機關同意，所以在經中央主管機\n關同意的過程中，也許在立法說明可以再做一些說明，譬如我要同意它的時候應該要具備什麼\n樣的資格條件，可以在立法說明去說明以後中央主管機關同意是基於什麼樣的原則。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:37.766627+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:46.824057+08:00","text":"這樣就是\n原條文不改，但我們在立法說明直接調整，不然，如果在條文明定應「具環境教育機構之資格\n」，就會造成困擾，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:46.824057+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:55.881486+08:00","text":"主席，部長剛剛講的部分，我們也是希望能夠加強，不要再有弊端產生，其實保育類\n野生動物輸入輸出本來就有一定的嚴謹性，因此，關於文字的部分，是不是能請同仁給我稍微\n看一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:55.881486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:04.938915+08:00","text":"如果在我看過之後認為 OK 的話，我對於這一條就不再堅持，可以依照現行條文，但是\n你的文字要如何確保未來中央主管機關審查過程的嚴謹性或是中央主管機關同意的方向，至少\n要讓我知道，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:04.938915+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:13.996344+08:00","text":"我們就文字不改、條文不改，維持現行條文，有一些補充說明的部分，是不是再送給洪孟楷\n委員，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:13.996344+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:23.053774+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，有沒有其他意見？沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:23.053774+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:32.111203+08:00","text":"洪孟楷委員的提案就維持現行條文，不予修正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:32.111203+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:41.168632+08:00","text":"接下來是第五十一條之一，分別有張啓楷委員及本席的修正動議，是不是請張委員先補充說\n明一下？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:41.168632+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:50.226061+08:00","text":"我看了行政院版跟很多委員的提案，內容大致上是大同小異啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:50.226061+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:59.283491+08:00","text":"我是提出這邊增加「\n基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物，違反依第二十一條之一第二\n項所定辦法中有關申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、\n獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者，依下列規定處罰：」第\n一個是「屬保育類野生動物，處新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下」，第二個是「屬一般類野生動\n物，處新臺幣一千元以上一萬元以下」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:59.283491+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:08.340920+08:00","text":"其中有一個很重要的條文，「首次違反前項行為者，\n不罰」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:08.340920+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:17.398349+08:00","text":"「因過失犯第一項第一款之行為者，處新臺幣五千元以上二萬元以下」，我看其他很\n多委員的提案都是比較類似的，所以這個條文應該是爭議性不大，這是第一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:17.398349+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:26.455778+08:00","text":"第二個，抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:26.455778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:35.513208+08:00","text":"剛剛高金委員提了一個修正動議，我是幫她唸或是送上去即可？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:35.513208+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:44.570637+08:00","text":"其實內容都\n是大同小異，像是雅琳及伍麗華的整個提案都差不多嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:44.570637+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:53.628066+08:00","text":"這個讓議事人員看一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:53.628066+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:02.685495+08:00","text":"因為現在突然送上來，我們都還沒看到文字內容。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:02.685495+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:11.742925+08:00","text":"我的案子本來就列在裡面啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:11.742925+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:20.800354+08:00","text":"高金委員的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:20.800354+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:29.857783+08:00","text":"或者你說的是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:29.857783+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:38.915212+08:00","text":"374\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:38.915212+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:47.972642+08:00","text":"有我的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:47.972642+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:57.030071+08:00","text":"在裡面，本來就有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:57.030071+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:06.087500+08:00","text":"所以現在不是高金委員的，而是用你的名字提案就對了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:06.087500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:15.144929+08:00","text":"對，高金委員這個怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:15.144929+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:24.202358+08:00","text":"她要我幫她，所以我送上來就好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:24.202358+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:33.259788+08:00","text":"高金委員這個怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:33.259788+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:42.317217+08:00","text":"剛剛你不是已經說明了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:42.317217+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:51.374646+08:00","text":"對，我說明的是我的提案喔！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:51.374646+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:00.432075+08:00","text":"我就告訴你這裡面有張啓楷的案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:00.432075+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:09.489505+08:00","text":"你現在說明的是張啓楷的提案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:09.489505+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:18.546934+08:00","text":"我說的是我和她一起連署的提案，高金委員的案子就送上來一起討論，好不好？沒事\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:18.546934+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:27.604363+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:27.604363+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:36.661792+08:00","text":"現在是高金委員有另外一個案，所以你的案與高金委員的案是兩個不同的案，或者\n高金委員是用你的名字提案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:36.661792+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:45.719222+08:00","text":"是兩個案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:45.719222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:54.776651+08:00","text":"你看嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:54.776651+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:03.834080+08:00","text":"他講的是兩個案，但現在我的手頭上只有一個案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:03.834080+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:12.891509+08:00","text":"用高金委員這個討論好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:12.891509+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:21.948939+08:00","text":"好，就用高金委員的提案討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:21.948939+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:31.006368+08:00","text":"高金委員的提案應該就是加了首次不罰，農業部要不要……\n鄭天財委員先講。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:48:31.006368+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:40.063797+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：這是一個重要的條文，第五十一條之一，第一個，我們看農業部所提的\n建議條文，與現行條文有很大的差別，我是建議將農業部建議條文的第八款刪除，為什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:48:40.063797+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:49.121226+08:00","text":"如果回到「使用第十九條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款」的「第八款」，因為第十九條已經\n有變動了，這是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:48:49.121226+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:58.178656+08:00","text":"第二點，第十九條的第一款一定是最嚴重的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:48:58.178656+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:07.236085+08:00","text":"一直到後面的\n第七款、第八款，其他有授權給你們的一定是比較輕微的，因為很嚴重的都已經在第一款、第\n二款、第三款及第四款，這是一個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:49:07.236085+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:16.293514+08:00","text":"因此，我建議將第五十一條之一提到的「使用第十九\n條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款」的「第八款」刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:49:16.293514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:25.350943+08:00","text":"第二個，為什麼還是要首次違反者不罰？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:49:25.350943+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:34.408373+08:00","text":"因為我們也作了不同的修正，譬如獸鋏，大家過去\n都習慣使用獸鋏，但是當初第十九條規定的第一項各款都是原住民可以做的，現行條文是這樣\n喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:49:34.408373+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:43.465802+08:00","text":"如今第十九條也作了修正，舉個例子，過去可以使用獸鋏，但是在新條文規定之下就不能\n使用獸鋏，因此還是要宣導、還是要宣導，所以還是要有首次不罰，希望農業部能夠接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:49:43.465802+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:52.523231+08:00","text":"第三個，你們現在增列了保育類與非保育類，也就是一般類。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:49:52.523231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:01.580660+08:00","text":"屬於保育類的部分，對大法官\n的第 803 號解釋，你們不能只看一個部分，還要看哪個部分？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:50:01.580660+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:10.638090+08:00","text":"這裡面提到了一句話，除有特殊\n例外，在說明二，實務上，獵捕野生動物雖無法預知所獵捕到之野生動物為一般類或保育類，\n這是事實，沒有錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:50:10.638090+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:19.695519+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:50:19.695519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:28.752948+08:00","text":"既然無法預知，大法官的解釋文也提到，除有特殊情形外，因此\n，我們考慮到這個部分，如果你要區分為保育類與一般類的話，我建議將第一款的「屬保育類\n野生動物」改成「明知屬保育類野生動物」，也就是加上「明知」2 個字，這樣就符合了大法官\n憲判的解釋。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:50:28.752948+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:37.810377+08:00","text":"在這樣的情形之下，如果能加上「明知」就更符合，因為這裡面本來就有寫「除\n有特殊例外」，這是大法官的用詞，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:50:37.810377+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:46.867807+08:00","text":"375\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:50:46.867807+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:55.925236+08:00","text":"在伍麗華委員發言完畢之後，再請農業部回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:50:55.925236+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:04.982665+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：關於第五十一條之一，剛才署長說它是處理原住民違反第二十\n一條之一第二項所定辦法時，應該受到行政罰的條款，但是在這次修正之後，前面的其他條文\n如果涉及到原住民獵捕野生動物的限制內容，例如使用獸鋏等等，我這邊是主張都應該要在本\n條當中明確處理，寫清楚以行政罰處罰即可。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:04.982665+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:14.040094+08:00","text":"因此，在這樣的原則之下，我的建議修正文字是\n「原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物，」加上「使用第\n十九條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款所定禁止之方式，或違反第二十一條之一第二項」增加\n「所定辦法中有關申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、\n獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者，依下列規定處罰：一、\n屬保育類野生動物，處新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰鍰，不適用第四十一條規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:14.040094+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:23.097524+08:00","text":"二、屬一\n般類野生動物，處新臺幣一千元以上一萬元下罰鍰，不適用第四十九條第一項第二款規定。」\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:23.097524+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:32.154953+08:00","text":"因為這個條文從上個會期就已經與許多委員及農業部溝通過很多次，應該是沒有什麼問題，\n也在這邊很謝謝能有這樣的共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:32.154953+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:41.212382+08:00","text":"另外，針對剛才的那個「首次」，我認為這個定義不太明確，到底這個「首次」是什麼首次\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:41.212382+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:50.269811+08:00","text":"因為有很多的條款，所以這個部分可能需要再做更清楚的定義，要不然還是會落到我剛才所\n講的情況，現在我們要的就是確保，不希望因為法條所創造出的模糊空間，到時候又讓檢察官\n及法官有不同的解釋，我希望這個部分要注意，以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:50.269811+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:59.327241+08:00","text":"農業部要先說明，還是法務部？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:59.327241+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:08.384670+08:00","text":"針對 2個問題，一個是首次不罰在文字上的規定是不是夠明\n確？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:08.384670+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:17.442099+08:00","text":"第二個是剛剛鄭天財委員所提的，後面要加上「明知屬保育類野生動物」或「明知屬一般\n類野生動物」，我不知道法律用語上是否可以這樣寫，待會可能要請法務部提供專業意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:17.442099+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:26.499528+08:00","text":"農業部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:26.499528+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:35.556958+08:00","text":"報告委員，針對首次違反者不罰的部分，因為這是現行條文，以前在執行上都不會有\n問題，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:35.556958+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:44.614387+08:00","text":"因為首次不罰是指那個行為人、要被處罰的那個人，用這個人來看，這個人第\n一次違反這個規定才會被罰，在認定上不會有太大的困難、不會把你的首次當成我的首次，所\n以不會有問題，這是目前執行上的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:44.614387+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:53.671816+08:00","text":"另外，針對委員要將第八款排除的建議，我要先說明，這一條的罰則是因應第二十一條之一\n來的，因此要回到第二十一條之一去看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:53.671816+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:02.729245+08:00","text":"第二十一條之一只有排除第二款到第六款，所以是依\n第一款、第七款或第八款，也就是這三款並沒有排除，因為它沒有排除，如果違反就要依第五\n十一條之一予以處罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:02.729245+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:11.786675+08:00","text":"如果委員認為第八款不該放進來，可能要回頭處理第二十一條之一的條\n文，因為它的義務條文是在第二十一條之一，所以原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自\n用而獵捕宰殺動物不可以使用經中央主管機關公告的方式、公告禁止的方法，一旦違反了這一\n條的規定，它的處罰就會回到第五十一條之一，會處行政罰，不適用刑罰的規定，以上說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:11.786675+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:20.844104+08:00","text":"簡單說，第五十一條之一其實是對應第二十一條之一而產生的罰則，因為剛剛第二十一條之\n一已經文字修正通過，所以第五十一條之一的罰則對應上面是不是就比照前面第二十一條之一\n罰責的部分？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:20.844104+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:29.901533+08:00","text":"針對剛剛的 2 個問題，法務部可不可以補充說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:29.901533+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:38.958962+08:00","text":"376\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n林參事豐文：主席、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:38.958962+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:48.016392+08:00","text":"關於剛才幾位委員所提的疑問，在此一併提出說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:48.016392+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:57.073821+08:00","text":"第一\n個問題，關於首次的認定，原本在現行法就已經有首次不罰的規定，因此，對於主管機關而言\n，認定首次應該不是太大的問題，因為這個法已經施行一段時間了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:57.073821+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:06.131250+08:00","text":"第二個問題，剛才有委員提到要不要加上「明知」這個要件，報告各位委員，以刑法而言，\n「明知」2 個字就變成必須是直接故意，等於是排除未必故意，這樣等於加重主管機關或檢察機\n關的舉證責任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:54:06.131250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:15.188679+08:00","text":"未來在執法的過程當中，該如何舉證他明明知道是保育類野生動物，這個部分\n可能會有事實上的困難，因為在捕獵的過程中，譬如採用陷阱的方式，我不可能預先知道我會\n捕獲什麼東西，或者是在很遠的距離用獵槍瞄準，也不一定能夠判斷自己要打的對象就是保育\n類野生動物。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:54:15.188679+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:24.246108+08:00","text":"也就是說，加上「明知」這個要件之後，很可能因為舉證上的困難，以至於這樣\n的處罰規定怕會達不到主管機關所希望達到的政策目的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:54:24.246108+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:33.303538+08:00","text":"因此，加上「明知」2 個字，等於是在\n要件上非常嚴格，將來在舉證上就會產生比較大的困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:54:33.303538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:42.360967+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛拿到伍委員的條文文字，它提到要特別排除第十九條第一項的第一款、第七款或\n第八款，這個與主管機關的政策似乎是不太一致，但是這個部分不是法律上的問題，而是政策\n上的問題，所以我們尊重主管機關及大院的決定，以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:54:42.360967+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:51.418396+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：法務部要聽清楚我的意見，無論是農業部或是大法官，先聽清楚！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:54:51.418396+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:00.475825+08:00","text":"都已\n經講得很清楚，實務上，獵捕野生動物雖無法預知所獵捕到之野生動物為一般類或保育類，尤\n其是晚上、尤其是晚上，基本上都是晚上嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:55:00.475825+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:09.533255+08:00","text":"因此，大法官才會提到除有特殊例外、除有特殊\n例外，也因此我才會提出在屬保育類的部分加上「明知」，一般類的前面不用加，就是在屬保\n育類的部分加上「明知」2 個字。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:55:09.533255+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:18.590684+08:00","text":"白天當然你們就認定他是、他知道嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:55:18.590684+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:27.648113+08:00","text":"至於晚上，這個也不是\n我首創的，實務上農業部也是這樣認為啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:55:27.648113+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:36.705542+08:00","text":"事實上也是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:55:36.705542+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:45.762972+08:00","text":"晚上本來就看不出來，都是看到動\n物亮亮的眼睛就打了，因此，這個部分在執行上應該不是那麼困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:55:45.762972+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:54.820401+08:00","text":"我知道委員在意的是他獵捕動物不會是明知，所以我們是不是回到第五十一條之一的\n序文，在獵捕宰殺動物的前提下，這個案子最主要的前半段違反的是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:55:54.820401+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:03.877830+08:00","text":"是因為你使用獸鋏\n去獵捕動物，獵捕動物是結果，但主要的問題是因為你擅自使用獸鋏、你使用我們禁止的方法\n去獵捕動物，只是獵捕到的是保育類野生動物或一般類野生動物而有不同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:03.877830+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:12.935259+08:00","text":"如果委員擔心，我\n們是不是在前面那個使用的概念上，寫上「基於……擅自使用第十九條第一項第一款、第七款\n或第八款所定禁止的方式」，也就是說，你的擅自使用是明知不可以用，像獸鋏不可使用，但\n你卻一定要使用，所以這裡並不是講後面獵捕到的動物，重點是在前面，你使用了什麼方式，\n處罰是因為你用這個方式去獵捕，這個案子在第五十一條之一是因為你用這種方式才會被罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:12.935259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:21.992689+08:00","text":"至於後面要不要區分保育類野生動物及一般類野生動物的罰則，這是另外一個問題，但是前面\n這個處罰要件是講你使用了這個工具、禁止的工具。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:56:21.992689+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:31.050118+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：你講的是前面的部分，但是第五十一條之一不是只有這個部分，還有後\n半段啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:56:31.050118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:40.107547+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:56:40.107547+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:49.164976+08:00","text":"經過核准或經過備查，使用獵槍是符合規定啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:56:49.164976+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:58.222406+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:56:58.222406+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:07.279835+08:00","text":"符合啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:57:07.279835+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:16.337264+08:00","text":"使用獵槍\n377\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:57:16.337264+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:25.394693+08:00","text":"他符合那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:25.394693+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:34.452123+08:00","text":"委員，已經核准或是符合備查的要件，不小心獵到保育類動物並不會罰，只要他通報\n就不會被罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:34.452123+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:43.509552+08:00","text":"這邊會處罰的是他沒有經過申請，等於是他就直接去獵捕，又獵捕到保育類動物\n，才會進入到剛剛講的這個部分來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:43.509552+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:52.566981+08:00","text":"因此，只要是依法申請者，誤捕是不會被罰的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:52.566981+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:01.624410+08:00","text":"如果依照你們這樣的說明，這個就符合剛剛鄭天財委員講的大法官解釋嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:58:01.624410+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:10.681840+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：首次不罰……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:58:10.681840+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:19.739269+08:00","text":"首次不罰已經沒問題，這個在原條文就有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:58:19.739269+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:28.796698+08:00","text":"鄭委員，我們是不是就照修正的文字……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:58:28.796698+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:37.854127+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：首次不罰要不要放進去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:58:37.854127+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:46.911557+08:00","text":"本來原條文就有了、原條文就有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T13:58:46.911557+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:55.968986+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我是說現在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T13:58:55.968986+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:05.026415+08:00","text":"我們將首次不罰納進去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:05.026415+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:14.083844+08:00","text":"再把它納回來、抓回來就對了，同意加進來。有啦！有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:14.083844+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:23.141274+08:00","text":"剛剛有講了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:23.141274+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:32.198703+08:00","text":"我們修正的文字，是不是請議事人員再念一次？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:32.198703+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:41.256132+08:00","text":"請議事人員再念\n一次修正文字，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:41.256132+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:50.313561+08:00","text":"第五十一條之一第一項：原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野\n生動物，使用第十九條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款所定禁止之方式，或違反第二十一條之\n一第二項所定辦法中有關申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要\n情形、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者，依下列規定處罰\n，但首次違反者不罰：一、屬保育類野生動物，處新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰鍰，不適用\n第四十一條規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:50.313561+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:59:59.370991+08:00","text":"二、屬一般類野生動物，處新臺幣一千元以上一萬元下罰鍰，不適用第四十\n九條第一項第二款規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:59:59.370991+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:08.428420+08:00","text":"如果沒有問題，文字就照這樣修正通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:08.428420+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:17.485849+08:00","text":"接下來要討論附帶決議，目前有蔡易餘委員所提的附帶決議，但是蔡委員已經同意撤案，請\n問各位委員有沒有意見？沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:17.485849+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:26.543278+08:00","text":"這項附帶決議就撤案不予處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:26.543278+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:35.600708+08:00","text":"現在還有新增鄭天財委員所提的附帶決議，請宣讀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:35.600708+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:44.658137+08:00","text":"附帶決議\n《野生動物保育法》第十九條條文修正公布施行後，農業部得依據該條第一項第八款公告禁\n止獵捕方法，將影響原住民族基於傳統文化、祭儀及非營利自用，以傳統套索等獵具狩獵野生\n動物之模式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:44.658137+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:53.715566+08:00","text":"有鑑於套索等獵具，在原住民族傳統文化具有不可替代性，未來農業部依據《野\n生動物保育法》第十九條第一項第八款依法公告其他禁止獵捕野生動物之方法，應先會商原住\n民族委員會後公告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:53.715566+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:02.772995+08:00","text":"此外，農業部應會同原住民族委員會透過自主狩獵管理並將團隊，及地方\n378\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n原民行政體系，儘速至原住民族地區辦理說明會，將資訊充分傳達部落族人瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"提案人","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:02.772995+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:11.830425+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw   楊瓊瓔  謝衣鳯","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:11.830425+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:20.887854+08:00","text":"這個遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:20.887854+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:29.945283+08:00","text":"我們就照案通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:29.945283+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:39.002712+08:00","text":"我唸一下協商結論：第十九條照行政院提案條文通過；第二十一條、第二十一條之一、第五\n十一條之一條文及修正動議均照協商條文通過；第二十五條維持現行條文。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:39.002712+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:48.060142+08:00","text":"審查會保留附帶決\n議一項撤案，並新增一項附帶決議，其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過，通過新增附帶決議一\n項。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:48.060142+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:57.117571+08:00","text":"如果沒有問題的話，今天協商就到此結束，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:57.117571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:02:06.175000+08:00","text":"散會（13時）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:02:06.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:02:06.295000+08:00","text":"我們現在開始協商會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:02:06.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:02:07.416000+08:00","text":"該到的委員、各黨團的代表、對這個法案有興趣的委員，大家紛紛到場了，我們現在開始協\n商會議。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:02:07.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:02:39.106000+08:00","text":"本日協商主題是本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員蔡易餘等 19 人擬具運動產業\n發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案等 5 案，還有經院會逕付二讀與相關提案併案協商之委\n員洪孟楷等 19 人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文修正草\n案 1案。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:03:06.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:04:18.404000+08:00","text":"接下來要進行協商，我們協商的時候，請各位委員參照協商條文對照表跟審查報告，還有逕\n付二讀的提案關係文書；與會委員如果有修正動議，或者是機關有建議內容，請提出書面印發\n現場來進行討論；還有，要特別報告，因為蔡易餘委員在第 1 會期第 22 次會議將提案撤回，所\n以蔡易餘委員的提案就撤回，也經過院會的同意，所以他的這項提案不納入本次的協商討論，\n所以目前為止我們所印的這些有關於蔡易餘委員的部分就是空白的，大家可以看一下。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:04:18.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:04:32.075000+08:00","text":"掀起各位委員的記憶一下，我們的審查會於 113 年 7 月 11 號審查完竣之後，我們的審查結果\n是保留增訂第七條之二（就是我們今天要討論的重點）跟增訂第七條之三，還有附帶決議 1 案\n；並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:04:32.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:04:33.436000+08:00","text":"我們先依條文的順序討論保留的條文，最後我們再討論附\n帶決議。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:04:44.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:00.952000+08:00","text":"我就先報告到這邊，針對第七條之二的部分，我們先請這些提案的委員來做一些說明\n，委員發言之後，我們再請教育部體育署來做相關的一些詢答，好不好？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:01.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:26.034000+08:00","text":"第七條之二的部分，大家先看一下今天新發的資料，對於第七條之一，沒有問題，我就不用\n再贅述了；第七條之二的部分，提會討論的版本，我先唸一次，大家也可以看一下我們的螢幕\n上面的文字：「第七條之二 為健全職業與業餘運動業之發展，中央主管機關應積極輔導相關\n賽事之運動員工會成立。","quality":0.425},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:26.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:28.176000+08:00","text":"」這是我們的提會版本，委員對於這樣的版本、第七條之二有沒有想\n法？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:28.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:28.396000+08:00","text":"請陳培瑜委員。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:44.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:44.661000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:44.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:59.826000+08:00","text":"我的版本裡面是在「工會」後面再加上「或團體」，主要是因為運動團體\n380\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n不會只是有工會的型態，像日本他們就有協會，假設未來在臺灣有各式各樣運動團體的成立，\n我認為也要納入。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:00.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:05.448000+08:00","text":"我們版本的第二項提到「前項運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、業務費用與基本人事費、團\n體協約簽定之獎、補助……」，我希望還是由中央主管機關訂定相關辦法，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:15.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:21.819000+08:00","text":"就是你原來刪除的「團體」，這次認為還是把它納入會比較好一點就對了，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:28.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:30.642000+08:00","text":"請國昌委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:31.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:04.464000+08:00","text":"第七條之二的部分，今天我們的主管機關，就第一項的部分，我相信大家應該沒有什\n麼太大的反對意見，不過，我要附和一下陳培瑜委員剛剛所提出來的兩點意見，因為我必須要\n說，我們這次在討論這個條例，甚至包括第七條之二增訂本身，其實真正希望的是能夠保護、\n保障這些運動員，以及這些運動員他們團結起來以後的權利。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:04.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:23.187000+08:00","text":"因此，我們黨團在處理這件事情\n的時候，我們會特別地重視目前運動員他們已經成立的工會或者是團體所提出來的意見以及建\n議。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:24.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:47.978000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，我們所收到相關運動員所成立的工會或者是團體，他們基本上所表達的訴求\n，其實跟剛剛陳培瑜委員所講的內容是相互一致的，第一個，除了工會以外，是不是應該再增\n加「團體」的型態？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:48.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:56.605000+08:00","text":"因為好像沒有什麼法律上面必要的理由，就只限於工會這種型態，其他團\n體協會的型態就要把它排除在外，因為它事實上只牽涉到組織型態的問題，那個本質、本身並\n沒有什麼改變。","quality":0.486},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:11.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:44.204000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，輔導他們成立這件事情，某個程度上面來講，對運動員而言，這到底是一個看\n得到吃不到，還是看得到也吃得到而且現實上面可以產生具體法律效果的條文，也是他們很關\n切的，正是因為這個樣子，所以他們才會提議，就運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、業務費用\n與團體協約簽定之獎、補助及其他相關辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:45.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:16.747000+08:00","text":"事實上，如果我們對於這\n一些團體在第一項所謂「輔導」這個抽象的名詞之外，在第二項的法律層次上面，針對於有關\n主管機關藉由法律的授權，給主管機關訂定相當的辦法，等於是立法者、我們簽了一張授權的\n支票給行政機關，讓行政機關在訂定這些相關子法的時候，有法律可以做清楚的依循。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:09:17.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:10:00.458000+08:00","text":"而它所\n產生的法律效力，也會提升到有關於法律授權命令這樣子的層次，對於主管機關來說，相關事\n務的處理，其實我相信我們機關的次長也好、署長也好，應該可以很清楚地知道，當立法者願\n意做這樣的授權的時候，其實具體的辦法還是交給你們加以訂定，所以是不是我們行政部門這\n一邊，也可以能夠去理解或者感受到這些運動員工會他們所提出來的訴求跟需求予以同意？以\n上。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:10:01.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:10:01.818000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:10:03.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:10:06.400000+08:00","text":"請張雅琳委員，委員一併發言完畢後，再請我們教育部回應。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:10:07.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:10:14.743000+08:00","text":"我自己想要做個提醒，如果我們今天出了人事費跟業務費用，會不會又有違反國家中\n立的原則？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:10:14.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:10:38.740000+08:00","text":"這是第一個部分；第二個，在實務上，其實針對其他的團體，我們並沒有類似的作\n法，所以如果有這樣子的條文的話，我覺得未來在跟其他團體上面，相關的工會要成立的時候\n，會不會有一些問題出現呢？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:10:38.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:11:01.134000+08:00","text":"再來，我們是不是可以讓這個運動員工會直接回到勞工主管機關\n的工會業務系統裡面，讓它來一併處理，就是它有所有工會團體通用的一個原則在，如果我們\n381\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n擔心這些運動員成立工會有點困難，那我們體育署是不是可以提供一些專款讓他們做使用、去\n補助？謝謝。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:11:01.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:11:01.634000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:11:08.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:11:40.369000+08:00","text":"我認為運動產業真的有它的特殊性，所以主管機關要積極協助建立友善的\n勞動環境，我們用中職棒球來當例子，你看每個職業棒球員他們的職業生涯其實都很短暫，所\n以他們如果要跟雇主談判、爭取權益，就要付出更多的成本，所以健全的工會真的需要主管機\n關來協力，不然若要兼顧一些本身的權益，其實是很難的。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:11:40.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:12:01.063000+08:00","text":"可是政府跟工會之間的關係，我覺得還是要審慎思考，之前在審議法條的時候我就有提到，\n工會的人事費跟業務費用如果是中央來提供資金，恐怕會有干涉工會獨立性的疑慮，工會原先\n的自主運作可能就會被政府左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:12:02.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:12:07.491000+08:00","text":"還有，如果由政府來補助人事費，則其他工會若也要求比照\n辦理，我想就會嚴重影響我們現行的工會體制，所以這部分還是請大家多思考一下。","quality":0.466},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:12:07.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:12:18.832500+08:00","text":"以上，謝\n謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:12:18.832500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:12:30.174000+08:00","text":"教育部體育署，有關於剛剛陳培瑜委員、黃國昌委員特別提到把「團體」重新納入，你們的\n看法為何？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:12:30.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:12:41.515500+08:00","text":"還有，在這個條文上面，你們是不是可以讓它更具體、更具象化，就是把它寫得更\n清楚，這塊有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:12:41.515500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:12:52.857000+08:00","text":"當然培瑜委員有開放一個口，就是也可以從附帶決議來做一個處理，\n這一塊我們先請體育署發表一下意見。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T14:12:52.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:02.766000+08:00","text":"報告委員，第七條之二的後面，我們也同意、贊同修正為「運動員工會或運動員團體\n成立」的字眼，這個 OK……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:03.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:05.869000+08:00","text":"所以加上「或團體」，你們要不要先改一下？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:06.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:06.289000+08:00","text":"修正為「或運動員團體」。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:06.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:18+08:00","text":"「運動員工會或團體」，因為前面的名詞就已經是這樣，所以再把「或團體」放進來。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:19.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:25.662000+08:00","text":"第二項的部分我們比較贊同張雅琳委員剛才的說法，是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來\n進行？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:31.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:35.385000+08:00","text":"我們建議用附帶決議。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:35.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:13:45.356000+08:00","text":"等一下，條文上面是把團體放進去，但是我們要更具象，像剛剛國昌委員所提到的部分，是\n用附帶決議的方法來處理，我們得看看你們的附帶決議有沒有充分，不過附帶決議跟整個立法\n的意旨還是有一段距離，我個人覺得啦！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:13:45.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:14:00.940000+08:00","text":"請國昌委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:14:00.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:14:17.023000+08:00","text":"老實講，立法完了以後它所做的附帶決議在實際上面、法律上面的效力本身，恐怕是\n大家會很疑慮的問題。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:14:17.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:15:09.999000+08:00","text":"至於剛剛提到有一些人事費是不是要補助這件事情，我們其實在立法上面可以尊重主管機關\n的決定，但是當我們要去落實所謂去輔導這一些工會或者是團體的時候，如果有一個法律明確\n授權的依據，讓中央主管機關去訂一個辦法的話……我剛剛講的重點是，它其實是有法律的授\n權命令在法律上面位階的效力，因為這個條次本身的增加，事實上是在授權行政機關去做，並\n沒有強迫行政機關要把那個辦法訂成什麼樣子，即它沒有具體地說那個辦法一定要訂成什麼樣\n子。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:15:16.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:15:49.695000+08:00","text":"只是目前這一些存在的運動員工會他們會希望，就他們的承認、輔導等費用的範圍，像你\n382\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n們如果覺得他們用人的費用不妥的話，你們可以就他們實際上面營運的部分，給他們一些獎、\n補助，當我們是用獎、補助來定位的時候，那個就不是一個法定費用支出的義務，就沒有課給\n政府這樣的義務。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:15:49.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:16:27.268000+08:00","text":"但是某個程度上，換另外一個角度講，讓主管機關有這樣法律的授權當作依\n靠的時候，你們在實際業務的推廣上面，在什麼樣的情況下、什麼樣的範圍內，對於這些團體\n他們所謂的輔導，你願意透過什麼樣子的形式給它補助這件事情，如果有法規授權依據的話，\n其實我是建議主管機關可以再審慎地考慮一下，對你們來講，真的是一件比較好的事情。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T14:16:32.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:16:37.974000+08:00","text":"這部分我們尊重，不過，在最後決定之前，是不是請勞動部的代表先確認一下？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:16:39.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:16:39.257000+08:00","text":"請勞動部代表。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:16:39.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:16:40.939000+08:00","text":"你們認為要把相關責任歸在勞動部，可是我還是要提醒，其實新竹市還有其\n他地方，說實在的，政府機關補助工會人事費用並不是這邊才出現的，在很多其他的單位裡面\n，其實也都有這樣的一個狀況，所以我還是要提醒一下。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T14:17:07.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:17:07.339000+08:00","text":"勞動部說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T14:17:08.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:17:25.765000+08:00","text":"其實針對工會的補助、獎勵等部分，我們中央當然有訂定相關辦法\n，但是就勞動部而言，確實是沒有針對人事費或團體費用的部分，但我們訂有相關的獎、補助\n，就是針對工會的部分。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T14:17:26.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:17:36.448000+08:00","text":"至於其他的縣市主管機關有沒有訂定，可能他們會有其他的考量，每\n個縣市會不太一樣。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T14:17:38.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:17:49.090000+08:00","text":"就這個條文，確實有其他委員提到，因為我們針對的工會是全部所有類型\n的工會，所以基本上，我們的標準會是一致的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T14:17:51.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:17:59.732000+08:00","text":"針對運動員的部分，如果教育部或體育署有另\n外考量的話，我們這邊當然都是尊重他們就這個部分的處理。以上。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:01.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:08.382000+08:00","text":"所以勞動部不反對，大家都尊重，尊重的結果就是可以把它放入我們的條文當中嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:08.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:21.467000+08:00","text":"如果我們第二項修正為「就前項運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、獎補助、其他相\n關辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:22.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:24.908000+08:00","text":"」就是業務費、基本人事費、團體協約簽訂之獎補助等等，那\n個寫得有點拉里拉雜，但我們就是都可以幫忙。","quality":0.548},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:24.908000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:26.508667+08:00","text":"我們可不可以把它寫出來，讓大家可以看一下，好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:26.508667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:28.109333+08:00","text":"你們就是不要把人事費放進去就對了，「承認、輔導」然後呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:28.109333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:29.710000+08:00","text":"麻煩再講一遍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T14:18:29.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:18:59.672000+08:00","text":"好，「就前項運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、獎補助、其他相關辦法，由中央主\n管機關定之。」。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:19:00.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:19:03.593000+08:00","text":"其實就是不要有業務費用或基本人事費用，就是不要有這些，所以可以不要有業務費用跟基\n本人事費用，這是你們比較關切的。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:19:27.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:20:01.581000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我只插一個問題，就是它為什麼要把「承認」放裡面，因為它會牽涉到未\n來有任何獎補助辦法的時候，一定要畫一個主觀範圍，那個主觀範圍就是哪些團體會落入這個\n獎補助的補助辦法的射程範圍內，所以有「承認」這兩個字，其實是給主管機關在後續處理獎\n補助的時候，當有法律當作授權依據，你們去訂那個範圍的時候，會非常地明確，也會避免未\n來產生爭議。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:20:07.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:20:08.097000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:20:10.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:20:34.533000+08:00","text":"前項已經有提到要輔導工會跟團體的成立；後項是針對成立以後這\n些運動員的工會或團體，講的是後面的輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關事項，我們希望加上「事\n383\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n項」兩個字，就是「相關事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之」。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:20:36.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:21:47.698000+08:00","text":"黃委員指教的是說，我們所謂的承認，是希望未來在這個辦法裡面，對工會或團體的範圍能\n夠明定，這是所有、幾乎很多的法規命令在決定適用範圍的時候，都會有一個條文來界定該辦\n法所稱的工會或是所定的工會團體包括 bla bla 多少個，那個是一般體例裡面就可以定的；還有\n，一般用「承認」這兩個字，我們剛剛查了一下教育法規跟勞動法規，都罕見，但是在立法技\n術上，我們確實也一定要有，因為我們既然要有獎補助的對象，所以我們必然就這一個範圍再\n予以明定，如果真的要的話、如果是這個意思的話，「前項運動員工會或團體之範圍」的「之\n範圍」就是類似這個意思，如果真的要講的是它的範圍、不是承認的話，應該就是修正為它的\n「範圍、輔導、獎勵、補助……」，這樣是可以的。","quality":0.507},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:21:48.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:22:00.003000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，「範圍」是可以不加，也\n可以定，我們在說明裡面講清楚，可不可以？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:22:01.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:22:07.934000+08:00","text":"就是那個範圍是可以不加上去，加在說明就可以了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:22:09.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:22:51.557000+08:00","text":"召委，我請教一下，其實本席也有提出相關的條文，就你現在講的，我不知道你現在\n爭執的點，到底是不是「承認」這兩個字是我們在法律用詞上不用的，可是我們跟幾個委員提\n出來的版本，其實某種程度上是「認定」，就是這樣一個工會或團體的認定，還是由中央主管\n機關認定，第一，它是認定，然後你要有輔導以及獎勵跟補助等相關的辦法，就實務上的經驗\n，看看有沒有、會不會有重複的運動員工會或者是有一些運動它可能項目比較廣，還是，有沒\n有可能是一些新興項目運動，像這些也都是要由主管機關來認定。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:22:53.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:23:07.060000+08:00","text":"所以如果回歸到我們現在希\n望可以訂定得比較完整的話，若你不要用「承認」這一個詞，那是不是要用「認定」這個詞來\n去作為一個比較完整的方向？","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:23:08.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:23:21.776000+08:00","text":"剛剛教育部的說法是，不管是承認或是認定或是什麼的，基本上他們認為在本質上他們就會\n做這樣的事情，所以在文字上面不需要特別把它凸顯，大家再看一下！","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:23:21.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:23:26.622000+08:00","text":"請次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T14:23:26.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:23:39.167000+08:00","text":"其實是這樣子，第七條之二的第一項已經有說「為健全職業……應積極輔導相關賽\n事之運動員或團體工會成立」，而依據第一項已經成立的這些運動員工會或團體，就是第二項\n說的「前項這些工會或團體」，我們對它進行輔導、獎補助等等，所以就沒有承認的問題，換\n言之，依據第一項都已經成立了嘛！","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T14:23:49.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:23:59.418000+08:00","text":"所以第二項就是針對這些已經成立的、已經被承認的團體\n或工會，我們進行輔導、獎助、補助，跟其他事項，這樣會比較單純。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:23:59.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:23:59.758000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:00.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:24:08.304000+08:00","text":"我覺得其他的委員就是要讓這個文字是很明確的，剛剛大家已經有一些的溝通，本\n來是要用附帶決議的方法，現在就是把大家提出的部分放入法條，讓法律的位階上面可以更明\n確化，好不好？","quality":0.359},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:08.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:24:09.304000+08:00","text":"這樣看起來也是非常地明確，OK 嗎？OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:09.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:24:36.711000+08:00","text":"我把它唸一次：「第七條之二 為\n健全職業與業餘運動業之發展，中央主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員工會或團體成立。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:37.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:24:46.378000+08:00","text":"前項運動員工會或團體之輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:47.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:24:48.420000+08:00","text":"」文字上有沒有問題？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:48.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:24:53.244000+08:00","text":"好，我們就修正後通過，很好，那我們附帶決議也不用了。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:24:54.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:25:04.647000+08:00","text":"我們來看第七條之三，各位委員，有沒有意見？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:25:04.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:25:06.051000+08:00","text":"我們把第七條之三放進來看，好不好？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:25:06.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:25:14.867000+08:00","text":"第七\n條之三是有關於防堵的機制，當然還有包括委員提到一些所謂懲罰的條款。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:25:17.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:25:38.075000+08:00","text":"第七條之三，我們\n現在看一下提會討論版本，大家看一下，有意見的請舉手，張雅琳委員，林宜瑾委員，雅琳委\n384\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n員先發言。","quality":0.516},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:25:41.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:25:43.056000+08:00","text":"我想就是針對……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:25:43.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:25:57+08:00","text":"有更正、有更正，第七條之三，以 A4 的這張為準，這是提案版本，我們先看一下，確認每\n個委員都有相關資料，跟你們的提案版本不一樣，是不是？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:25:57+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:26:04.191000+08:00","text":"新的請發給大家，新的，所以跟你\n們提案版本不一樣，你們又做了一些修正，我們看一下新送的版本，要我唸一下嗎？","quality":0.109},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:26:04.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:26:06.373000+08:00","text":"好，我唸\n一下好了：\n「第七條之三 中央主管機關應制定並推動防治運動賭博政策，輔導職業與業餘運動團體建立防治\n運動賭博之信託基金機制及辦理法治教育。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:26:33.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:26:48.406000+08:00","text":"以強暴、脅迫、詐術或其他非法之方法，妨害運動競技賽事之公平者，處一年以上七年\n以下有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣一千萬元以上三千萬以下罰金。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:26:49.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:03.277000+08:00","text":"犯前項之罪，因而致人於死者，處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑；致重傷者，處三年以\n上十年以下有期徒刑，各得併科新臺幣二千萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:03.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:15.444000+08:00","text":"三人以上共同犯第二項之罪者，處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣二千萬元\n以上五千萬元以下罰金。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:15.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:18.585000+08:00","text":"第二項及前項之未遂犯罰之。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:19.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:20.026000+08:00","text":"第二項運動競技賽事範圍如下：\n一、職業運動聯盟舉辦之職業運動賽事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:20.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:20.626000+08:00","text":"二、特定體育團體舉辦之企業運動聯賽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:30.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:37.253000+08:00","text":"三、其他經中央主管機關公告之與運動產業發展有關之重要運動競技賽事。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:37.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:27:55.371000+08:00","text":"」\n不管大家要怎麼樣討論，我還是要給予體育署肯定，終於拿出很具象的內容，就是包括了哪\n一些的賽事，說實在的，我們也是等了很久，現在終於拿到了，我們拿這個 A4 的版本來討論，\n好不好？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:27:56.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:28:12.725000+08:00","text":"大家可以對照一下，之前第七條之三我們要求他們提出來但他們都沒有提出，今天終\n於提出來了，這三大項裡面大家可以看得出來，包括職業運動；特定體育團體舉辦之企業運動\n聯賽；還有其他經中央機關主管公告之與運動產業相關發展有關的，起碼很具象地提出來了。","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T14:28:13.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:28:14.266000+08:00","text":"把第二款的「企業運動聯賽」修正為「企業聯賽」，因為另外跟節稅有關的稱法是\n叫做「企業聯賽」。","quality":0.432},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:28:14.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:28:15.507000+08:00","text":"好，把「企業運動聯賽」修正為「企業聯賽」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:28:15.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:28:16.748000+08:00","text":"請洪孟楷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:28:16.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:29:12.498000+08:00","text":"感謝召委，我看了一下，包括相關的罰鍰金額以及刑期都有加重，本席予以肯定；也\n有放入「建立防治運動賭博之信託基金機制」，這個本席給予肯定，但在我的版本第七條之二\n裡面有再提到一項，就是「擁有運動團隊經營權之法人、團體及其代表人……主動配合檢察及\n司法警察機關調查……有隱匿或抗拒，經查證屬實者，處……罰鍰」，但教育部體育署的版本\n裡面沒有把它放入，我們是不是討論一下？","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:29:12.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:29:44.811000+08:00","text":"我是覺得，這個從過去到現在的樣態裡面都還是會\n有，當然可能難度會越來越高，可是過去畢竟是有詐騙集團直接去經營球團，這樣子的痛我們\n不能再發生，所以我還是希望能夠針對經營者的部分加以規範，當然我相信 99%都是善良經營\n385\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n者，但是如果真的有檢調要進入調查的話，相關的法人、團體、代表人應該都要主動配合辦理\n，同時也要有相關的刑責。","quality":0.799},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:29:45.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:29:46.171000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:29:46.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:29:47.391000+08:00","text":"好，這是有關於經營者的部分。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:29:48.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:29:51.133000+08:00","text":"請林德福委員，再過來是張雅琳委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:29:55.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:30:18.992000+08:00","text":"謝謝，這次運動產業發展條例的修法，是因為我們過去發生很多職業籃球員甚至有涉\n及打假球、地下簽賭等等這些不法的案件，造成民眾對我國運動賽事信任度大幅度地下滑，也\n再度重創我國運動產業發展與運動競技環境公平的風氣。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:30:19.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:30:47.861000+08:00","text":"目前運動彩券發行條例有防堵重罰的\n條款，但是僅限於投注標的，非投注標的的職業運動並不受其範圍限制，如果發生簽賭、放水\n，將面臨是否可以適用這個處罰的疑慮。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:30:48.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:31:07.434000+08:00","text":"本席認為，現行運動產業發展條例需要加以修改，以維護運動賽事競技的公平性，保護運動\n產業善良的發展，避免地下簽賭來影響整個職業、業餘運動的發展。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:31:10.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:31:23.847000+08:00","text":"本席所提的版本條文次號\n與其他版本不同，但是本席不會堅持用自己的版本，只要修法能夠防範地下簽賭，讓運動產業\n更好，本席都會支持。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:31:24.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:31:45.895000+08:00","text":"此外，職棒工會、籃球工會所提的一些修法建議，本席也認為教育部、法務部要把這些意見\n聽進去，比如說明文訂定政府應制定職業運動賭博防堵的政策，並向學校端來深化相關的法治\n教育。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:31:47.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:32:17.073000+08:00","text":"針對目前整個運彩條例沒有辦法覆蓋之國內熱門賽事，如運彩未開盤之少數職棒的賽事\n、籃球聯賽、企業足賽，還有企業排球以至於學生賽事等等，都比照運彩條例來設計提高相關\n的罰則，以嚇阻這些意圖操縱賽事不肖的份子，希望運動產業發展條例能夠順利修法，以健全\n國內產業的發展。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T14:32:17.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:32:17.233000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:32:26.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:32:33.914000+08:00","text":"謝謝林德福委員，他不堅持，但是他充分地表達對於所謂防堵機制上面要嚴格的加以防堵，\n了解。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:32:34.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:32:36.355000+08:00","text":"接下來是陳培瑜委員，然後張雅琳委員，然後林宜瑾委員，謝謝。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:32:42.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:32:42.458000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:32:44.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:33:22.550000+08:00","text":"第七條之三的第 2行，本來是「輔導職業與業餘運動團體」，我要修正為\n「……運動員團體」，因為現在的基金是工會在管理，不是聯盟，可是按照現在的寫法，其實\n是聯盟在管理，所以要把「業餘運動團體」改成「業餘運動員團體」，這個請注意；再來，第\n二項「以強暴、脅迫、詐術」，後面要加上一個「、利誘」，周思齊現在在看直播，他有交代\n我們，利誘是一個很常用的手段，所以在入法的時候，希望可以把利誘放上去，謝謝。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:33:24.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:33:28.724000+08:00","text":"那可能還要再加一下了，順著培瑜委員的話，就是修正為「業餘運動員團體」，好不好？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:33:32.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:33:51.504000+08:00","text":"第\n2 行修正為「……輔導職業與業餘運動員團體建立防治運動……」這樣跟前面才會互相的呼應，\n然後接著修正為「以強迫、脅迫、詐術、利誘或其他非法之方法」，畢竟運動員最清楚他們所\n承受的辛苦了。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:33:52.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:33:52.905000+08:00","text":"請雅琳委員。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:33:52.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:33:59.475000+08:00","text":"其實我也是延續一樣的看法，因為我自己這樣一路看這些情況，包括他們還有招待喝\n花酒、請客嘛！","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:00.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:04.703000+08:00","text":"但這東西它現在好像、似乎沒有辦法列在這個裡面，所以我……非法！非法！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:04.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:05.703000+08:00","text":"386\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:04.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:08.252000+08:00","text":"可是如果是請他去吃飯呢？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:10.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:14.815000+08:00","text":"那時候周思齊的案例，不是給他錢嗎，總之，我也是認同\n，就是應該要加入利誘這個事情。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:16.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:19.677000+08:00","text":"只是如果我們把「利誘」修進去的話，我們的運彩條例是不是也要同步一起來修？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:20.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:20.978000+08:00","text":"這\n是一個提醒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:21.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:32.043000+08:00","text":"最後一個，就是「第二項運動競技賽事範圍如下：」的部分，第二款的「特定體育團體舉辦\n之企業聯賽」，我想問的是，要特地寫「聯賽」是因為不能寫「賽事」嗎？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:32.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:32.583000+08:00","text":"因為其他都是寫「\n賽事」，為什麼這裡要特別寫「聯賽」？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:32.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:42.254000+08:00","text":"好，等一下請法制處說明聯賽、賽事這幾個用詞、用語。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:42.254000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:51.925000+08:00","text":"再過來請林宜瑾委員發言。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:51.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:34:52.025000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:34:52.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:35:21.325000+08:00","text":"我想今天討論第七條之三，特別在 12 強棒球賽臺灣拿到冠軍之後，有所\n謂的網紅在高談闊論說他以前在做「球版」的工作，讓全臺灣人民很憤怒，特別是我這種老球\n迷，所以第七條之三的防堵機制，相對更為重要，我想全國人民很關注，特別是職棒球員工會\n也有特別發聲，希望運動賽事的防堵機制可以更健全。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:35:21.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:35:39.232000+08:00","text":"所以上次我們討論的重點，就是在所謂\n職業運動跟業餘的運動賽事的射程範圍，因為運動賽事有大大小小，有職業、半職業、業餘、\n企業聯賽、學生運動聯賽等等，所以要將哪些賽事列入，請體育署務必要列清楚。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:35:40.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:35:47.317000+08:00","text":"我想今天寫\n的條文很多都是概括性的文字，到底包括哪個賽事，到時候可能要羅列清楚。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T14:35:48.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:36:07.872000+08:00","text":"包括罰則的部分\n，我想要有威懾性，這個很重要，因為這樣才有防堵的力量，可是我想今天要訂這個法，處罰\n還是要符合比例原則，這部分等一下再請法務部做個說明，我們希望參照法務部的意見。以上\n。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:36:15.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:36:23.795000+08:00","text":"第七條之三，針對第二項的強暴、脅迫、詐術，我也贊成加上利誘這樣一個手段。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:36:25.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:36:53.192000+08:00","text":"但\n是我要另外請教的是我們主管機關或者是法務部的代表，針對這種刑事犯罪行為，在立法體例\n上面，如果是意圖營利的話，通常會有加重其刑的規定，這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨黨團我們一\n開始在針對這種非法行為態樣的時候，我們寫得很細，包括三人以上刑度要拉高這件事情，也\n是我們當初所提出來的立法設計。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:36:53.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:37:15.644000+08:00","text":"三人以上去做這個事情，基本上要處理這種組織性的犯罪型\n態，但是你如果把它定義成犯罪組織，現在組織犯罪防制條例某個程度上面，其認定的標準已\n經嚴格到快要沒有辦法適用，所以我們才用三人以上的立法體例，當初我們的設計是這樣。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:37:15.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:37:51.875000+08:00","text":"但\n是你們今天所提出來的建議條文，把意圖營利要加重其刑的部分給刪了，我不知道實際上面的\n考慮是什麼，因為在刑事處罰當中，當你是意圖營利去做這樣子的事情的時候，那個刑事的可\n責性絕對是更高的，我覺得意圖營利去做這些事情的時候，它的惡性更為重大，在相應的刑事\n處罰上，給他加重其刑，我們認為是符合比例原則的。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:37:52.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:38:03.841000+08:00","text":"只是我看到今天主管機關所提出來的條\n文，把意圖營利加重其刑的部分刪除掉，實際上面的考慮到底是什麼，可能等一下也要麻煩我\n們主管機關回應一下。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:38:03.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:38:04.321000+08:00","text":"還有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:38:08.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:38:28.651000+08:00","text":"有關於剛剛所有委員所提出來的，包括洪孟楷委員他的條文裡面提到有關經營者\n387\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n這個層面，還有黃國昌委員特別提到意圖營利的部分，還有委員提到賽事跟聯賽的用詞、用語\n的層面，還有剛剛林宜瑾委員提到的這些相關部分，是不是請你們一併來做說明，好不好？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:38:37.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:40:27.638000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到的，我們這一次的修法，希望能夠建構一個安全友善的競技環境，\n來維護並讓運動員可以安心地從事職業運動等等的生涯發展，原來關係文書所列的多數版本，\n刑度都列在五年以下，後來我們再仔細思考了以後，今天修正的是運動產業發展條例，是所有\n運動產業的基本法，而運動彩券發行條例中，運動彩券業只是運動產業裡面的一支的特別法，\n它被拉出來，而且是立法立在前面，反觀我們今天把這個基本法訂出來以後，宣示一個剛剛各\n位委員跨黨派都支持的，就是要建構友善安全的運動競技環境，所以我們的賽事有可能是納入\n標的的賽事，也可能是不納入標的的賽事，但仍是對於運動產業發展、是全國各界關注的重要\n賽事，所以這樣一個重要賽事，如果被用強暴、脅迫、詐術或利誘的方法（「利誘」待會可能\n還可以請法務部來表示意見），也就是以上述這些極惡劣的方法來干預，甚至會影響到球員人\n身安全的這種類型，基本上就拉高他的刑度到一年以上七年以下，這跟原來所提到的六個月以\n上五年以下，或是一年以上五年以下有期徒刑，已經拉高了很多。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:40:28.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:40:45.928000+08:00","text":"至於本來有區分意圖營利跟\n不意圖營利，我們現在把這樣的刑度拉高了以後，未來由司法機關裁判的時候，如果他有意圖\n營利的，也搭配後面的併科罰金，他的裁量空間會比較大。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:40:46.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:41:11.740000+08:00","text":"因為這次的修法比較急迫，我們希\n望運動產業發展條例條文的構成要件，跟現在運彩條例行之多年的構成要件，儘量讓它一致，\n它干擾的類型是一樣的，立法技術上就會比較成熟、完整，所以我們採用的就不再做那個細部\n的區分。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:41:13.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:41:19.243000+08:00","text":"另外，關於剛剛所提到利誘的部分，是不是可以請法務部來指教？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:41:20.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:41:27.464000+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛提到意圖營利的條件是跟運彩條例規定的體例是一樣的。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:41:28.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:41:29.005000+08:00","text":"我們先請法務部說明。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:41:29.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:41:32.767000+08:00","text":"汪參事南均：主席、各位委員，還有次長、署長。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:41:32.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:42:03.787000+08:00","text":"有關利誘是不是要放進這個構成要件裡面，我們\n剛剛有查過過去相關的體例，刑法裡面是沒有將利誘這個用語當成構成要件，但是陸海空軍刑\n法第四十六條有，大概就是有這一個條文，然後其他的大概就不是用刑罰的處罰，只有陸海空\n軍刑法第四十六條刑罰的構成要件有放「利誘」，這樣「利誘」是不是可以放在其他非法之方\n法來看？","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:42:06.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:42:17.056000+08:00","text":"如果把它放在其他非法之方法來看，我們在實務解釋上應該可以來認定，它是不是跟\n強暴、脅迫、詐術相當的非法方法。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:42:24.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:42:45.332000+08:00","text":"如果是利誘，就等於比如主投來利誘球員，利誘行為人就\n只有主投，受利誘的那個就不是共同正犯，但是我們從這一條看起來，如果用詐術，他們雙方\n都可以是共犯的行為，所以提出來給大家參考。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:42:46.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:43:04.336000+08:00","text":"另外，有關刑責的部分，因為這次有「三人以上共同犯之」跟「因而致重傷」、「致人於死」\n，我們把這三項的層次分開，這也符合過去刑法加重的體例。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:43:04.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:43:31.170000+08:00","text":"因為刑法的加重強制性交罪，在\n第二百二十二條第一項裡面，有兩人以上共同犯的刑度是一個層次，如果是致死還有致重傷，\n在第二百二十六條就有更加重的規定，我們這次就一併參考，也有提供給體育署、教育部參考\n，所以他們都有調整了，我們也贊同。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:43:32.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:43:47.724000+08:00","text":"另外還有三百零二條之一妨害自由的部分，也是有三人\n以上的犯罪是一到七年，然後因而致死就無期徒刑十年以上，因而重傷五到十二年，所以這次\n我們也有分層次，我們也認為這樣比較符合體例。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:43:50.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:44:09.337000+08:00","text":"388\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n還有剛剛洪孟楷委員講到的，檢察官在進入司法調查之後，認為這些財團法人、代表人團體\n應該有主動配合調查的義務，如果有隱匿、抗拒，查證屬實有行政裁罰。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:44:09.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:44:28.712000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我們\n看這個條文是有一點點奇怪，既然已經進入司法偵查程序，如果他不配合，檢察官有刑事訴訟\n給的強制處分權力來做後續的偵查處理。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:44:30.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:44:34.577000+08:00","text":"因為他隱匿抗拒，行政機關再跳出來做行政調查，這\n看起來有紊亂，就是司法偵查權跟行政調查權兩個有點紊亂在一起，我在想實務上能不能執行\n也是有點問題。","quality":0.348},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:44:34.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:44:42.019250+08:00","text":"因為檢察官已經在司法偵查了，看起來主體應該是要行政機關查證屬實，但他\n要怎麼查證屬實？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:44:42.019250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:44:49.461500+08:00","text":"而且是檢察官已經在做司法偵查行為，行政機關再跳出來說，你要被處罰，\n這個體例過去是沒有的，只是我們看到運彩有，這個目的性可能是要求要比較迅速、比較即時\n，但是看起來這個條文放在這裡，就是有點奇怪，所以司法院好像也有建議，就把這條刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:44:49.461500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:44:56.903750+08:00","text":"意圖營利這一個層面呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:44:56.903750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:45:04.346000+08:00","text":"汪參事南均：意圖營利的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:45:04.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:45:04.746000+08:00","text":"民眾黨特別、非常在乎的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:45:22.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:45:25.654000+08:00","text":"汪參事南均：這個我們就是尊重主管機關。OK。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:45:27.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:45:33.360000+08:00","text":"「利誘」這兩個字，你們說了老半天……\n汪參事南均：陸海空軍刑法是有，但是其他的沒有。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:45:39.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:45:42.580000+08:00","text":"剛剛這樣的解釋說明，我可以接受，不堅持後面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:45:43.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:45:59.811000+08:00","text":"我的重點在於不要再發生過去那樣\n的樣態，你現在說刑事已經介入，檢察官已經有更強硬的手段可以要求配合的話，處不處罰、\n罰鍰的部分要多少，我們就可以再討論。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:46:00.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:46:00.811000+08:00","text":"這一點我不堅持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:46:01.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:46:11.142000+08:00","text":"不過我也有在意圖營利的部分要加\n重其刑二分之一，我也認為應該要把它給放入，為什麼？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:46:11.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:46:34.321000+08:00","text":"其實你看，如果真的有意圖營利的情\n況，因為我們前面討論的是，以非法手段來影響運動競技賽事公平，可能還是會有情節的輕重\n，一個是牽扯到賭盤、賭金，另一個可能是不一定有牽扯到賭盤、賭金，也許是牽扯到譬如對\n戰組合、捉對廝殺，我可能這一場不要打得太好來選擇晉級之後的隊伍，其實在運動賽事上有\n這樣的狀況，但是這一些我們都是不鼓勵也不允許的。","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:46:57.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:47:03.996000+08:00","text":"我也認為現在我們修這一條，就是希望\n建立一個很完整的概念，我國的法令是絕對不允許有任何人用任何非法手段去介入公平的運動\n賽事。","quality":0.534},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:47:04.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:47:12.920000+08:00","text":"如果後面的目的還是用營利，我們就加重二分之一，所以我認為加重二分之一是不是可\n以放入？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:47:13.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:47:24.604000+08:00","text":"讓更多人看到這一個條文的時候可以很明白地理解，就是你要營利、賺錢的話，不好\n意思，不要來干涉，不要把你的黑手伸入到運動賽事。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T14:47:25.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:47:25.304000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:47:28.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:47:52.212000+08:00","text":"剛剛這位官員所講的……不好意思，剛剛處長所講的事情，我不是聽不懂，但我要跟\n處長分享幾個事情，第一個，在我國刑事處罰的體例上，意圖營利本來就是一個提高刑度基本\n上的法定構成要件。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:47:53.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:48:15.974000+08:00","text":"因此，特別是在這一種打假球，因為要營利而去做這件事情，在惡性上，\n如果不透過法定刑的提高，沒有辦法適度地去評價它對於法規範秩序所造成的迫害。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:48:17.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:48:42.374000+08:00","text":"因為跟其\n他的脈絡相比，大家都會問一件事，為什麼在其他脈絡的時候，只要涉及到意圖營利，法定刑\n就往上了，反而在這個脈絡的時候，我們立法者的決斷竟然是不需要提高，讓法院自己依照刑\n389\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n法第五十七條各款要件，在法定裁量裡面去調整？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:48:43.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:49:13.332000+08:00","text":"事實上，我必須要說的事情是，如果為了要\n懲治賺那一種錢而去搞這種事情傷害運動員的人，反而在法規上面不加重其刑，而是把它回到\n所謂法院量刑裡面的評價，恐怕在整個規範的體例上跟現行整個刑事處罰的規範體例不符。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:49:14.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:49:23.298000+08:00","text":"第二個，立法者在這件事情所做成的評價，可能也會傳遞一些錯誤的訊息。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:49:24.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:50:10.146000+08:00","text":"其實法條的構造\n並不困難，我知道你們心裡面在想的是，三人以上已經有加重了，但是我要跟大家說明的事情\n是，在這種犯罪型態之下，你要回去想，如果在訴訟上沒有辦法證明是三人以上一起幹的話，\n就要回到第一項，當你回到第一項的時候，有辦法跟沒有辦法證明意圖營利，在法定刑回到本\n來的原則上面，恐怕不是簡單的一句說「交給法官依照具體個案裁量」就可以處理的事情。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:50:17.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:50:17.920000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:50:18.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:50:36.850000+08:00","text":"我們提到運彩條例，基本上當時就是為了要防止賭博，這是大宗的類型，\n所以用強暴、脅迫、詐術或其他非法的方法，妨害運動競技的本身，有一點抽象危險犯的概念\n。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:50:37.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:50:52.482000+08:00","text":"也就是你做這種事情，100 件、99 件都是在賭博的，所以我就直接把你刑度拉高了，它內部\n就隱含著多數的類型就是有高度不好的內涵，所以才會定一年以上七年以下。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:50:53.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:51:06.354000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛提到的\n是，今天新立一個法律條文，要不要創設跟運彩條例不一樣的構成要件，再多一個營利跟不營\n利的區分？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:51:08.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:51:19.344000+08:00","text":"原來的設想是，因為時間也比較急迫，所以是不是用比較成熟的運彩條例構成要件\n，都跟它一樣。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:51:19.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:51:25.609000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛提到，原先的刑度都只有五年以下，我們現在是把它拉到七年以下。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:51:26.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:51:34.076000+08:00","text":"委員的意見是就分，營利的就七年以下，不營利的是不是要輕一點，我們剛剛提到的是……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:51:34.076000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:51:40.564000+08:00","text":"我沒有說不營利的輕一點，你不要動喔。抱歉！","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T14:51:40.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:52:27.394000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的是，就有一點像運彩一樣，即使是運動彩券，多了一個妨礙運動\n彩券發行的秩序，其實營利跟不營利的並不區分，所以我剛特別提到，已經有一個一年以上七\n年以下的級距，這本來就是看你犯罪的型態、手段惡不惡劣、人數多不多、危害跟企圖、動機\n影不影響等等，所以我必須這樣講，我們要在很快時間內擬出一個大家有共識而且執行比較無\n礙的條文，所以我們的建議是，因為我們提列出來的是非投注標的的賽事，但它的重要性在運\n動產業發展上跟投注標的類似，所以是用相同構成要件的概念。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:52:28.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:52:30.356000+08:00","text":"我先說一下，等一下休息 5分鐘，大家再做個討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:52:30.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:53:15.647000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛法務部和處長的說法我都尊重\n，而包括黃國昌委員、洪孟楷委員，大家對於所謂的賭都是深惡痛絕，而或許在所謂的運彩部\n分並沒有特別提出這個部分，現在我們把意圖營利納入，只是希望在修這個法的時候，能更凸\n顯地展現出我們的實質態度，如果在體例上沒有太過違反，我個人認為，不是運彩如何我們這\n邊就要配合，說不定把「意圖營利」放進去之後，下次運彩條例修法時，也會配合這樣的作法\n，然後讓這部分更凸顯出來，這是我們的看法。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:53:15.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:53:16.847000+08:00","text":"我們是不是休息 5 分鐘？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:53:16.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T14:53:17.728000+08:00","text":"大家做個溝通，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:53:18.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:12:19.333000+08:00","text":"5 分鐘之後，再來做最後決議，我們先溝通\n一下，好不好？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:12:20.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:12:20.394000+08:00","text":"現在休息。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:12:20.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:12:25.619000+08:00","text":"休息（14時 53 分）\n繼續開會（15時 12分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:12:25.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:12:46.027000+08:00","text":"第七條之三經過剛剛的休息協商，顯然大家還是有一些歧見，但我還是要做最後的努力，因\n390\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n為不管是第七條之一、第七條之二，都已經有一個共識，第七條之三的部分，還是希望各位委\n員今天能夠把它送出委員會，盡可能把條文擬出來。","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:12:46.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:13:05.520000+08:00","text":"最後顯然就是在有關意圖營利的這個層面\n上，黃國昌委員跟洪孟楷委員都認為可以把「意圖營利」放到「三人以上」的部分，但是教育\n部法制處認為這樣的作法在刑責的衡平上會有一些疑慮，現在就針對這個部分，我們再做最後\n的溝通。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T15:13:05.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:13:07.081000+08:00","text":"召委，其實在剛剛的溝通過程中，我覺得法務部應該已經可以接受，尊重嘛！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T15:13:24.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:13:40.295000+08:00","text":"而教育\n部法制處也認為只要立法說明清楚，應該可以接受第四項修正為「意圖營利或三人以上共同犯\n第二項之罪者」。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T15:13:44.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:13:48.922000+08:00","text":"我們要再次強調，這次的修法就是要用實際行動告訴任何想要營利而想把手\n伸進運動賽事的人，我們都一概拒絕，所以當然要以加重處分來嚇阻這樣的犯行，好不好？","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T15:13:48.922000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:14:03.881000+08:00","text":"以\n上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2024-12-04T15:14:03.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:15:49.612000+08:00","text":"其實這個法案已經協商、討論過一次了，而今天的精神最主要就是全部都要加重其刑\n，所以今天教育部提出來的提會版本，重點在於強暴、脅迫、詐術或其他非法之方法，都要加\n重處罰，不管是刑度還是罰金；今天提會版本的刑度是一上七下，已經比上次我們在這裡討論\n時加重了，原先民眾黨黨團提案版本並沒有加重，就是一般刑度，強迫、威脅、詐術是六個月\n以上五年以下有期徒刑，如果意圖營利要加重其刑二分之一的話，加完就是九個月以上七點五\n年以下，其實比我們現在光是講強暴、脅迫、詐術等還沒有加重的部分，刑度就還要低了，現\n在突然提出來意圖營利要加重，這跟上次的版本差很多，本來是六個月以上而已，所以我還是\n希望今天這個提會版本可以先出去，因為這個已經討論過，今天不是第一次討論，大家對刑度\n加重是有高度共識的，而今天的提會版本也已經加重了，請大家看一下，各委員原先的版本都\n沒有到一上七下這麼高，罰金部分也都已經加重，得併科一千萬元以上三千萬元以下罰金，都\n已經符合我們上次討論時加重的要求，所以我覺得剛剛這「意圖營利」是不是要進來加重可以\n討論，但離上次的版本真的差太多了，原先的刑度最低是六個月以上。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T15:16:01.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:16:18.722000+08:00","text":"我說明一下，第一項在不涉及意圖營利的情況下把法定刑定為一上七下，我們敬表同\n意，我一點意見都沒有，但為什麼我們剛剛一直在處理意圖營利的事？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T15:16:20.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:16:40.179000+08:00","text":"在刑事法律的世界裡，\n當意圖營利而去做一些事情的時候，它的法定刑本來就會拉高，所以拿不同版本的出發點來比\n，事實上並不是討論這個問題的本質。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T15:16:40.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:17:06.685000+08:00","text":"問題的本質是我們的出發點是，在第一項這種行為態樣\n下、基本款的行為態樣下，一上七下大家都認同，這個沒有問題，現在思考的層次是，在這個\n基本款上，如果因為意圖營利而做這件事情，是不是應該要加重處罰？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T15:17:06.685000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:17:55.887000+08:00","text":"我理解教育部可能有一\n些考慮和看法，所以剛剛在沒有開麥克風討論的時候，我才說如果意圖營利按照一般狀況全部\n一次加重二分之一，你們覺得太重的話，那起碼在後面的加重行為態樣上，請大家看後面有一\n種行為態樣，就是「三人以上共同犯第二項之罪者，處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑」，為什麼\n三人以上犯，我們要加重處罰？","quality":0.193},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T15:17:55.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:18:47.181000+08:00","text":"因為我們認為三人以上犯，對於法益侵害、威脅程度跟可責性\n程度會比較高，但是如果今天我是因為意圖營利來處理，即使沒有三人以上犯，以目前社會上\n391\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n也好、球員也好對這種事情深惡痛絕的程度，直接把它放在「意圖營利或三人以上共同犯第二\n項之罪，處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑」，基本上我們認為這樣的話，其他我們要考慮的規範\n通通可以涵蓋在這裡面，而不是說意圖營利部分，按照一般體例全部加重二分之一。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T15:18:47.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:18:57.764000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們\n的討論，希望大家彼此之間能有共識的方向，其建置基礎是在這裡。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:18:57.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:18:58.524000+08:00","text":"好，還有沒有其他意見？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:18:58.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:18:59.725000+08:00","text":"請張雅琳委員。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T15:19:00.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:19:49.364000+08:00","text":"我想確認一件事情，就是我們最主要是希望用加重刑罰，來達到宣示我們要打擊賭博\n、打擊犯罪的目的，而基本上這次修法很多都已經提高刑罰，但是我想再確認一下，今年我們\n修兒少性剝削的相關性影像時，我記得好像也有針對意圖營利、散播的部分，討論是不是要罰\n得更高、更重，但後來法務部跟司法院的意見都考量到衡平性問題，所以我們今天在考慮這件\n事情的修法上，除了要建立打擊犯罪的形象外，是不是也要回歸到法律實務面的衡平性問題？","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2024-12-04T15:19:55.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:20:38.755000+08:00","text":"我還是再次強調，加重處罰、加重刑度、加重罰金，這些我們通通都支持、認同，而\n意圖營利我們當然也深惡痛絕，因為這個最後造成的都是對選手的傷害，所以如果要把它加進\n來跟三人以上共犯一起加重處罰，我覺得可以討論，但我還是要強調，今天提會版本的罰則已\n經比民眾黨黨團第一次的版本在加重處罰上都還要高了，所以我是希望下一次你們在提案的時\n候，一開始就要先加重，不要已經協商到最後一刻才提出一個之前都沒有討論過的版本，這樣\n會花大家很多時間，我是希望可以這樣，大家互相尊重。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:20:38.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:20:39.096000+08:00","text":"最後，請鄭署長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:20:39.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:20:39.116000+08:00","text":"好，同意。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:20:50.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:21:10.981000+08:00","text":"我們尊重剛剛張雅琳委員特別提到有關兒童性剝削曾在這個議題上的討論，特別提到衡平性\n的問題，我剛剛也特別提到衡平的問題；另外，吳沛憶委員認為大家對於這些意圖犯罪部分是\n深惡痛絕，這是三黨都有的共識，但還是希望在提出討論的時候，有關罰則的落差上可以更加\n吻合。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:21:10.981000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:21:37.900500+08:00","text":"我們現在就從整個條文來看，我只念紅字的部分，「輔導職業與業餘運動員團體」，這個部\n分沒有問題；然後根據球員工會的意見，他們特別希望把「利誘」放進去，法務部也認為這樣\n的用詞沒有問題；特別是我們剛剛討論非常久有關意圖營利的部分，這一次教文委員會不斷地\n凸顯對於所謂意圖營利對球員造成的危害，我們希望在態度上能特別呈現出來，所以意圖營利\n或三人以上共犯的這個部分，就符合下面的罰則，好不好？","quality":0.052},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:21:37.900500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:04.820000+08:00","text":"OK，好，那這一塊就是……還有啊\n？","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:04.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:06.562000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有提一個附帶決議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:07.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:08.324000+08:00","text":"好，我們處理陳培瑜委員的附帶決議。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:08.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:09.324000+08:00","text":"第七條之三附帶決議\n針對運動產業發展條例第七之三條所稱之「職業聯賽」、「企業聯賽」之具體定義，以及輔導\n運動員團體建立防治運動賭博之信託基金機制之相關辦法，體育署應於三讀後六個月內完成。","quality":0.157},{"speaker":"提案人","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:09.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:10.324000+08:00","text":"陳培瑜  林宜瑾  張雅琳","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:10.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:11.324000+08:00","text":"請陳委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:11.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:12.324000+08:00","text":"392\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:08.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:11.126000+08:00","text":"第七條之三我有提一個附帶決議，就是針對運動產業發展條例第七條之三所稱之「職\n業運動賽事」、「企業聯賽」具體定義，希望體育署在三讀後六個月內完成相關辦法跟規定，\n可不可以？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:21.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:22.343000+08:00","text":"體育署有沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:22.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:23.724000+08:00","text":"因為你們要把它定義出來。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:24.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:29.066000+08:00","text":"只有改兩個字，就是「相關辦法」改成「相關規定」，因為我們只能訂定行政規則。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:30.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:34.147000+08:00","text":"可是你們給我的版本寫的是「職業運動賽事」跟「企業運動聯賽」，我們現在確定一\n下名稱，應該改成「職業運動賽事」跟「企業聯賽」。對。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:34.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:34.828000+08:00","text":"好，所以附帶決議是這樣囉？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:34.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:34.988000+08:00","text":"署長，你看一下。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:35.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:22:35.648000+08:00","text":"來，我們是不是再看一下最後的內容？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:22:55.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:00.025000+08:00","text":"正本部分我們剛剛都有簽字，剛剛陳培瑜委員的附帶\n決議，把「辦法」改成「規定」，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:23:00.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:16.033000+08:00","text":"好，你們先處理第七條之三附帶決議的文字。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T15:23:17.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:25.299000+08:00","text":"另外，第七條之三就照剛剛螢幕上所看到的文字修正通過，附帶決議的正本是不是給我們？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:23:29.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:32.325000+08:00","text":"陳培瑜委員的附帶決議我念一下：針對運動產業發展條例第七條之三所稱之「職業運動賽事」\n、「企業聯賽」之具體定義，以及輔導運動員團體建立防治運動賭博之信託基金機制之相關規\n定，體育署應於三讀後六個月內完成。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:23:32.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:32.505000+08:00","text":"這樣 OK 吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:23:53.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:54.344000+08:00","text":"好，這個附帶決議就通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:23:54.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:57.206000+08:00","text":"因為第七條之二已經修正通過，所以原審查會保留的附帶決議我們就不予通過，好不好？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:23:57.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:23:57.346000+08:00","text":"這\n是第七條之二的部分。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:23:57.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T15:24:23.106000+08:00","text":"今日會議協商結論如下：增訂第七條之二、增訂第七條之三，修正通過；通過協商新收附帶\n決議共 1 項，原審查會保留附帶決議共 1 項不予通過，這個剛剛已經特別報告過了，其餘均照\n審查會審查結果通過，檢附立法說明一份。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:24:23.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:24:29.606000+08:00","text":"如果大家沒有問題，就請大家簽字，完成今天的協\n商。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:24:29.906000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:24:33.048857+08:00","text":"感謝各位委員的參與，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T15:24:33.348857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T15:24:34.491714+08:00","text":"散會（15時 24 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}