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包委會我們現在開始來進行這個野保法的協商那我想我先還是先介紹一下我們先今天現在在場的委員們有這個張祺凱委員這個"},{"start":191.915,"end":194.636,"text":"陳婷菲委員、蔡易瑜委員、伍麗華委員、鄭天財委員部會首長陳部長、原民會王處長"},{"start":208.342,"end":231.266,"text":"教育部有兩個專委紀賢養紀專委跟廖雙慶廖專委海委會有羅敬明組長法務部林參事謝謝那我們現在就好那我們是不是請這個議事人員先宣讀一下上次的這個"},{"start":238.4,"end":266.593,"text":"來 那我再跟委員會報告一下我們上一次的審查結論保留了四個條文分別是第19條、第21條、第21條之一及第51條之一還有保留一項附帶決議那這幾個條文要交付黨團協商那所以我們今天就從這幾個保留的條文的部分先來進行協商那首先我們先從第19條開始來 那個農業部的代表要再說明嗎"},{"start":277.622,"end":278.383,"text":"主席跟各位委員"},{"start":279.281,"end":300.088,"text":"那我們針對上一次被保留的這個第19條跟21條我們說明一下那19的部分我們是針對這個金屬售甲是全面的禁用那另外呢也接受委員的建議納入原本的這個炸藥跟爆裂物的這個使用"},{"start":300.908,"end":315.831,"text":"那另外呢還有一個就是所謂的金屬套索我們是希望說金屬套索他還是有在食物上農民或者原住民族的獵人他會需要那但是我們也考量到說他"},{"start":317.132,"end":317.633,"text":"各委員請問對於這個19條的內容"},{"start":345.155,"end":346.204,"text":"文字上大家有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":354.858,"end":383.195,"text":"我跟大家再補充說明一下就是因為我們上次討論的時候大家對於售假的部分其實是有兩派不同的意見跟看法那我們有部分的委員認為應該要全面禁用金屬套索但是我們其實也考量到原住民族的這個傳統狩獵跟農民的防治受害其實某個程度上都還是有這一些使用金屬套索的需求"},{"start":383.755,"end":412.862,"text":"但是農業部現在在推廣改良式的改良式的售甲今天他們也特別改良式的金屬套索所以今天也特別把這個食品也帶來到現場讓各位委員能夠清楚的了解所以我想兼具兩者不同的這個立場是不是我們建議維持這個行政院原來的條文內容請問各位委員"},{"start":414.147,"end":426.669,"text":"可以接受嗎?接受可以喔?可以好 謝謝 謝謝各位委員的支持那我們第19條就按照行政院的提案條文通過好 來接下來"},{"start":430.326,"end":455.024,"text":"好 接下來我們要討論第21條 那農業部農業部還有建議的條文嗎我們 第21條的部分 算是經過委員大家的討論我們接受委員的意見 就是有關於第一項的部分 排除的部分第19條第一項 本來是第一款也排除但是我們現在認為第一項的那個炸藥 炸藥跟其他的爆裂物"},{"start":455.725,"end":458.826,"text":"第21條以及第21條之一就是款次的調整文字上做一些調整請問大家有沒有意見"},{"start":486.601,"end":486.621,"text":"先討論21條"},{"start":490.919,"end":518.678,"text":"21條對啊21條之一因為你剛剛有提到21條字兩個字是一樣的啦就是我們現在把那個炸藥把它列為禁止的項目之一所以它的那個條次款項是做一些調整啦就是說我們在緊急列補的需要的時候我們也不可以使用炸藥所以現在就會排除說不能第一款也不能用所以炸藥是全面禁用不管是緊急的狀況也不可以使用這是第21條的規定以上"},{"start":522.46,"end":524.441,"text":"好 那就照農業部提供的建議條文修正通過好不好"},{"start":550.735,"end":566.631,"text":"我們需要再讀一次21條的修正文字是不是議事人員讀一下好不好第21條第一項野生動物有下列情形之一者得予以獵殺或"},{"start":568.223,"end":582.434,"text":"得益略補或宰殺不受第17條第1項、第18條第1項及第19條第1項第2款至第6款規定之限制但保育類野生動物除情況緊急外應先報請主管機關處理"},{"start":583.993,"end":609.242,"text":"一、有危及公共安全或人類性命之虞二、危害農林作物家禽家畜或水產養殖三、傳播疾病或病蟲害四、有妨害航空安全之虞五、其他經主管機關核轉制情形保育類野生動物有危害農林作物家禽家畜或水產養殖在緊急情況下未及報請主管機關處理者得益"},{"start":609.946,"end":621.315,"text":"主管機關核定致人道方式予以獵捕或宰殺以防制危害宣讀完畢好來請問各位委員第21條我們是不是就照"},{"start":622.957,"end":642.427,"text":"農業部建議的條文文字修正通過好嗎?好,謝謝來接下來我們看第21條之一那21條之一也是因為之前有第19條第一項的這個所列的方法所以我們也是就文字上去做一些調整我特別請議事人員唸一下"},{"start":662.792,"end":680.945,"text":"第21條之一,臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化既宜或非營利自用而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者不受第17條第1項、第18條第1項及第19條第1項第2款至第2款規定之限制宣讀完畢"},{"start":687.383,"end":688.525,"text":"前項裂骨或被查"},{"start":691.977,"end":720.103,"text":"第二項前項獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准或被查其申請核准或被查之情形得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形申請程序應檢附文件獵捕方式獵捕動物之種類數量獵捕期間區域管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":721.524,"end":728.104,"text":"好來請問各位委員第21條之一我們的文字是不是照這樣修正通過伍麗華委員"},{"start":730.845,"end":758.391,"text":"好 我也說明一下因為這一次的修法其實是為了回應司法院大法官對於獵人王光祿案作出的釋字803號解釋所以在第21條之一就增列了院版也有增列就是非營利自用的要件納入了原住民的獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物的除罪化範圍"},{"start":760.031,"end":778.137,"text":"改採被查制原住民獵捕野生動物以行政處罰取代刑罰我想這個部分我在上個會期就已經有做過提案這個也溝通過我們基於大法官解釋他是對原住民狩獵權的維護"},{"start":779.838,"end":798.455,"text":"那也基於民間社會提倡的人道考量對於全面禁用售甲本席後來是予以尊重但是既然大法官他做出解釋那我們的修法的內容也符合他的解釋意旨所以呢就是以這個行政法替代刑法的部分"},{"start":799.136,"end":826.197,"text":"我覺得這個條文的文字修正我不堅持可是我就是要確保在法令落實的操作過程就跟過去的獵槍一樣不會因為法條它創造的一個模糊的空間讓檢察官跟法官到時候會有不同的解釋所以呢我很堅持就是在第21條之一原住民只要是基於傳統文化、技藝或非營利自用而獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物不管"},{"start":827.498,"end":842.623,"text":"列具的類別或者是野生動物的類別都不要用刑罰處罰然後在第二項訂定原住民獵捕野生動物所應遵循的辦法所以這個部分我一定要再次的強調 謝謝鄭天財委員這個21條 現行的21條之一"},{"start":853.064,"end":874.292,"text":"有幾個部分第一個就是說這個過去只有現行的條文只有寫傳統文化還有技藝這兩個部分那因為原住民族基本法在94年2月5號公布施行之後這個因為一直沒有修雖然我們在第八屆第九屆"},{"start":876.253,"end":886.468,"text":"第十屆一直有提案但是一直沒有通過所以我在105年的時候就透過相關的解釋"},{"start":891.553,"end":916.625,"text":"解釋已經106年就解釋包含了研究法的所謂的非營利自用所以這個部分事實上在106年之後都已經有以非營利自用就可以了這是第一個第二個現在因為過去之前也提到這個"},{"start":918.566,"end":942.121,"text":"所有的案都要經過核准是不合理的所以有改為備查你們現在核准跟備查要對列在這個條文裡面那現在就是你的執法一定要考驗到實際的需求因為我們在原鄉你還要到還要下鄉下山還要下山給你核准事實上就是勞民傷財這第二個"},{"start":946.004,"end":953.856,"text":"現在就是文字的統一性如果我們看後面的條文包括其他的法律的條文"},{"start":956.011,"end":981.726,"text":"因為當初修正的時候沒有單獨因為是單獨接條之前的修正所以我們我建議就是說那個臺灣原住民族那個臺灣兩個字可以刪除我們後面的條文也只有寫原住民族了我們其他的法律條文也都是只有寫原住民族比如說原住民族基本法沒有寫臺灣原住民族基本法原住民族委員會也沒有寫臺灣原住民族"},{"start":982.817,"end":984.038,"text":"行政單位有什麼意見?"},{"start":1005.404,"end":1032.185,"text":"好 剛剛吳委員的這個提案我們其實已經在待會會討論到51條51之1處理了那鄭天財委員的這個建議呢我們就遵照辦理我們把台灣兩個字刪除好 來 法務部有沒有意見51條之1就是只有寫原住民之類的好"},{"start":1033.972,"end":1061.001,"text":"來那基於法律的一致性來第21條之一我們的這個臺灣兩個字把它刪除所以就是一樣都是寫原住民族等等好來那後面的這個修正的文字是不是就照原來的提案通過好嗎照那個農業部的對不起農業部的修正建議條文通過好謝謝來接下來我們"},{"start":1063.652,"end":1079.562,"text":"謝謝我們要討論第25條那因為這個第25條是由洪孟凱委員等提案進覆二讀那並沒有在委員會裡頭有過討論所以我們現在也把它放進來討論那個洪孟凱委員在現場是不是請洪委員謝謝感謝周委"},{"start":1080.903,"end":1101.089,"text":"這個部分雖然現行條文是已經有說要經中央主管機關同意但是過去到現在我們也看到就是說有輸入所謂的這個野生動物的時候輸入保育類野生動物跟相關製品的時候也有發生一些爭議那這樣爭議的部分的情況下其實還是會造成說到底中央主管機關的這個"},{"start":1103.71,"end":1123.721,"text":"打官的部分夠不夠嚴謹以及充分所以說我才會在這邊是講是說他應該具有環境教育機構的資格並且經中央主管機關同意因為其主要在於是保育類野生動物保育類野生動物他不是一般動物而已是保育類野生動物那再加上"},{"start":1124.401,"end":1145.184,"text":"雖然說這個行政部門有講到是說是這一些機關可能會有所謂的這個學術交流等等的部分但是就保育類、野生動物是不是有那麼頻繁的需要做這樣的一個輸入輸出的一個狀況我想這也是值得商榷那所以是不是大家可以研究的或是說主管機關是能夠在我們相關"},{"start":1146.025,"end":1154.654,"text":"立法說明還是怎麼樣能夠有一些比較加緊、嚴謹不要再讓過去有發生的一些弊端的一個狀況再發生好不好"},{"start":1156.763,"end":1179.653,"text":"請從業部說明跟委員報告一下就是說這次委員建議加了所謂環境教育機構的資格那就我們現在去查我們目前該等的這些大專院校的這些研究機構的部分大部分都不是屬於環境教育機構所以基本上如果要把它加上這樣的一個要件可能就"},{"start":1180.533,"end":1206.762,"text":"這個目的其實最主要是因為要所謂的學術交流的一個目的而來的啦所以我們在目前輸入的時候其實我們都還會做相當的審核而且它要基於學術教育等公共目的及用途我們才會進入很嚴格的審查它才可以輸入所以我們建議是不是還是維持目前我們的審查機制維持現在的現行條文以上"},{"start":1210.112,"end":1223.045,"text":"請問其他委員有沒有意見陳婷菲委員因為我想我們農業部也做了很清楚的說明所以我覺得還是維持我們原來的行政院版本的建議條文"},{"start":1226.529,"end":1241.461,"text":"主席我可不可以稍微補充一下就是剛才洪委員所提到的那當然增加了那個環境教育資格會造成更多的一個制度的審查但是因為我們是要經中央主管機關同意嘛所以我們"},{"start":1242.882,"end":1269.729,"text":"在中央主管機關同意的這個過程也許在立法說明我們可以再做一些說明就是說我要去同意他的時候應該他具備什麼樣的一個資格條件可以在立法說明去說明說以後中央主管機關同意的時候是基於什麼樣的原則這樣的話就是在原條不改在我們在立法說明去做一些調整不然如果實務寫這些應具教育機構資格那就是很明定的時候那就會造成一些困擾以上"},{"start":1272.486,"end":1287.219,"text":"好 主席部長剛剛講的部分也是因為我們都希望的是說要加強這個不要說有這個弊端的一個產生那保育的野生動物其實它輸入進出本來就已經有一定的一個嚴謹性"},{"start":1288.28,"end":1317.193,"text":"那所以說這樣子的一個那個文字的部分是不是能夠請同仁這邊給我稍微看一下那如果說讓我看過我覺得OK的話其實這一條我沒有那麼堅持好不好就依照現行條文但是你的這個文字要怎麼樣未來比較明確的嚴謹的一個這個中央主管機關審查的一個過程或說中央主管機關同意的一個方向你至少讓我知道可以嗎那你們這另外另外有一個"},{"start":1319.175,"end":1343.984,"text":"我們就文字不改啦條文不改然後那個維持現行條文那有一些補充說明的部分是不是再送給洪文凱委員好嗎好來請問各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有好沒有的話那我們洪文凱委員的提案我們就維持現行條文就不予修正好接下來我們看第51條之一有"},{"start":1347.549,"end":1374.766,"text":"現在還有另外兩個有張祺凱委員跟本席的修正動議是不是張委員要先補充說明一下?謝謝我看了行政院版跟我們很多委員的提案內容大致上大同小異啦我今天提到是增加說基於傳統文化基於或者是這個非營利的自用這個類譜宰殺或者非利用野生動物這違反一第二十條之一"},{"start":1375.97,"end":1400.669,"text":"第二項鎖定在辦法裡面的這個有關申請核准或者是被查這個情形得獵捕、宰殺或者利用保育類野生動物之必要的情形獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量獵捕期間、契約或者管理之規定則依照下面來處罰第一個是屬於保育類動物的處新台幣2萬以上、10萬以下"},{"start":1402.27,"end":1430.123,"text":"第二,屬一般野生動物的儲新台幣1000元以上、1萬元以下裡面有一個很重要的條文就是第一次首次違反前項規定者不罰然後因為失犯第一項跟第一款之行為者儲新台幣5000元以上、2萬元以下那我看得起那很多委員的都是比較類似的這個條文應該增一些不大這是第一個,然後第二個是那個抱歉剛剛高進都提了一個什麼修正動議我是幫他墊還是送上去就好"},{"start":1431.584,"end":1459.813,"text":"上內容都大同小異啦我看那個雅琳的還有那個伍麗華他們的整個提案都差不多嘛這可以讓我們議事人員看一下好不好因為現在突然送上來我們都還沒看到文字內容高經的不是我的案子本來就列在裡面啊來那個那個農業部你們有手上有嗎高經的還是你說的是高高經的張祺凱委員的有嗎有啦我的有啊在裡面啊"},{"start":1461.021,"end":1479.03,"text":"本來就有 本來就已經調回所以你 所以現在不是高金委員是您用您的名字提案就對了 對對對對阿高金這個怎麼辦他要我幫他 我就送他高金這個怎麼辦阿不是你剛剛就說明了嗎對對嘿說明的是我的喔對啊 我就跟你說這裡沒有張其凱的案阿"},{"start":1480.697,"end":1507.984,"text":"你現在說明的是張吉凱提案嗎?沒關係,我說的是我跟他一起連署的案啦那高津的案子就送上來一起討論就好啦好不好,沒事,OK,謝謝不是啦,你現在是高津有另外一個案跟你有另外...你的案跟高津的案是兩個不同的案還是高津是用你的名字去提案?是兩個案,是兩個案你看嘛,他講的是兩個案啦可是我現在手頭上只有一個案啊好,用高津這個討論好了,好不好好,OK好,來,那就用高津委員的提案討論齁"},{"start":1512.277,"end":1538.45,"text":"呃 高金委員的提案應該是那個他就加了首次不法啦 那個那個 農業部要不要好 那你要先講嗎 好 來 鄭天財委員好 這個這是一個重要的條文 第51條之一第一個"},{"start":1542.502,"end":1569.317,"text":"這個我們看這個現在就是農業部所提的建議的條文跟現行的條文有很大的差別那我的第一個就是說那個第八款農業部建議的條文的那個第八款我是建議刪除了為什麼呢如果我們回到那個"},{"start":1572.075,"end":1597.185,"text":"我把它講清楚就是使用第19條第一項第一款第7款或第8款那個第8款如果我們看這個19條19條已經有變動那以現在的19條有變動這第一個有變動了第二個從第一款第19條的第一款第一款一定是"},{"start":1598.297,"end":1627.423,"text":"最嚴重的嘛對不對一直到後面第七款第八款其他有授權給你們的一定是比較輕微的很嚴重的都已經在第一款、第二款、第三款、第四款這是一個部分嘛所以我是建議那個第51條之一這邊所提到使用第19條第一項那個第八款可以刪除這是第一個第二個"},{"start":1629.517,"end":1652.909,"text":"第2個為什麼還是要首次違反者不罰是因為我們也做了不同的修正比如說售假大家過去以前使用售假習慣了因為原來的條文21條所有第19條的各款第一項各款"},{"start":1654.139,"end":1683.047,"text":"當初都可以啊原住民啊現行條文是這樣啊那你現在第19條也做了修正了過去我們是不能過去可以用售假有幾個例子那現在新的條文是不能了所以還是要先導還是要先導所以還是要有首次不法這是第二個部分要請希望農業部能夠接受"},{"start":1684.755,"end":1712.228,"text":"第三個部分你們現在把它針對了這個保育類保育類跟非保育類一般類這個屬保育類的部分當然大法官的那個803號解釋你們不能只看一部分還要看哪個部分呢他這裡面有提到一句話"},{"start":1713.636,"end":1741.912,"text":"除有特殊例外他前面食物上啊食物上獵捕野生動物你自己的那個說明喔那邊食物上獵捕野生動物雖無法預知所獵捕到之野生動物是一般類還是保育類這是事實沒有錯對不對所以呢既然無法預知啊既然是無法預知然後大法官"},{"start":1743.326,"end":1764.493,"text":"的解釋文也提到除有特殊情形外所以我們考慮到這個部分如果你要去分保育類跟一般類的話我的建議就是第一款的部分屬保育類、野生動物這個部分加兩個字"},{"start":1766.909,"end":1787.573,"text":"民資屬保育類野生動物加個民資就符合這個大法官的一個憲判的一個解釋所以這個部分是一個部分所以在這樣的一個情形之下當然這個"},{"start":1791.778,"end":1802.47,"text":"如果可以加明資的話就更符合因為這裡面本來就有寫除有特殊例外這用詞是大法官的一個用詞以上"},{"start":1808.66,"end":1829.127,"text":"吳麗華委員發言完之後我們請農業部回應謝謝主席在第51條之一剛才署長有講他是去處理如果原住民違反第21條之一第二項的這個鎖定的辦法的時候應該要受到行政法的一個條款"},{"start":1830.547,"end":1850.584,"text":"那但是如果這一次修正之後前面的其他條文如果有涉及到原住民獵捕野生動物的限制內容例如使用獸甲等等那我這邊是主張說都應該要在本條當中明確處理就是寫清楚以行政法處罰即可"},{"start":1851.385,"end":1874.825,"text":"所以在這樣的原則之下呢我的建議修正文字就把原住民族基於其傳統文化、技藝或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物加上使用第19條第一項第一款第7款或第8款鎖定禁止之方式或違反第21條之一第二項"},{"start":1876.747,"end":1890.581,"text":"增加鎖定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量"},{"start":1892.483,"end":1907.088,"text":"列補期間區域或管理之規定者一下列規定處罰就增定一屬保育類野生動物處新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還不適用第41條之規定"},{"start":1909.069,"end":1934.359,"text":"二、署一般類野生動物處新台幣1000元以上、1萬元以下罰款增加不適用第49條第一項第二款之規定因為這個條文從上個會期其實跟很多的委員還有我們的農業部溝通過很多次應該是沒有什麼問題那也在這邊很謝謝有這樣的共識"},{"start":1935.419,"end":1956.189,"text":"那另外針對剛才的那個首次我這個地方是建議就是定義不太明確到底這個首次什麼首次因為有很多的條款所以這個部分可能需要再做更清楚的定義要不然還是會落到我剛才所講的就是我們現在就是要確保"},{"start":1956.849,"end":1979.525,"text":"所以我們不希望因為我們法條所創造的模糊空間到時候又讓檢察官、法官有不同的解釋我希望這個部分要注意以上 謝謝好 來 那個我是不是農業部要先說明還是法務部就針對兩個問題一個是首次不罰的文字上是不是規定夠明確第二個是剛剛這個鄭天財委員提到的"},{"start":1982.389,"end":1995.404,"text":"在後面要加明知屬保育類動物或者是明知屬一般類野生動物我不知道法律用語上可以這樣寫嗎這個待會兒可能法務部要提供一下專一解賴農業部"},{"start":1998.323,"end":2018.316,"text":"跟各位委員報告一下對於那個首次違反者不罰因為這是現行條文在執行上以前都不會有問題為什麼因為首次不罰是指那個行為人要被處罰的那個人用這個人來看所以這個人他第一次違反這個規定才會被罰所以在認定上他不會有太大的困難"},{"start":2019.537,"end":2032.67,"text":"不會把你的手勢當成我的手勢所以不會有問題這個是目前執行上的一個說明那另外剛剛委員在講說要把第八管排除那我要先說明這一條的罰則它是因應21條之一來的"},{"start":2038.135,"end":2064.212,"text":"21條之一要回到21條之一去看21條之一它只有排除第二款到第六款所以第一款、第七款、第八款這三款是沒有排除的所以它沒有排除所以你違反的話就要以51條之一來做處罰所以如果委員認為第八款不該放進來那可能要回頭處理21條之一"},{"start":2066.834,"end":2068.942,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具、委員"},{"start":2071.71,"end":2098.765,"text":"因為21條之一他的義務條文是在21條之一所以原住民基於傳統文化記憶或非營利自用他獵捕宰殺動物是不可以使用經中央主管機關公告的方式公告禁止的方法所以他一旦違反了這一條的規定他的處罰就會回到51條之一就處刑政法然後就不適用刑法的規定那以上做個說明"},{"start":2101.2,"end":2125.855,"text":"好來簡單說就是說第50條之一其實是對應第21條之一我們是對應它所產生的罰則所以剛剛第21條之一我們已經那個文字修正通過所以第51條之一的這個罰則的部分對應上面我想是不是就比照前面第21條之一的那個罰則的部分那那個法務部可不可以補充說明一下剛剛的兩個"},{"start":2129.588,"end":2158.468,"text":"主席好、各位委員大家好關於剛才幾位委員所提的一些疑問在這邊說明第一問題就是說關於首次的認定現行法本來在現行法裡面就已經有規定首次不罰的規定了所以這個在主管機關來講的話要認定首次應該不是太大的問題這個法已經施行一段時間了然後第二個就是"},{"start":2159.708,"end":2160.569,"text":"加重了主管機關或檢察機關的舉證責任"},{"start":2182.418,"end":2209.979,"text":"就是說在未來在執法的過程當中要如何去舉證證明說他明明知道這個是一個保育類野生動物這個可能會有事實上的困難因為我們在捕獵的過程當中比方說他用陷阱的話我不可能預先知道我會捕獲什麼東西或者是他在很遠的距離用獵槍來瞄準那他也不一定能夠判斷說我要打的對象就是保育類"},{"start":2210.74,"end":2238.141,"text":"那也就是說加上明知的這個要件之後的話很可能就是說因為舉證上的困難以至於說這樣子的一個處罰規定很可能就會打不到怕會打不到主管機關所希望達到的政策目的所以加上明知這兩個字的話等於就是說在要件上非常的嚴格了將來在舉證上也就產生了會比較大的困難然後另外就是"},{"start":2239.332,"end":2239.492,"text":"來 鄭天財委員"},{"start":2268.208,"end":2295.398,"text":"那個法務部要聽清楚我的無論是農業部或是大法官先聽清楚都已經講得很清楚實務上獵捕野生動物無法預知所獵捕到的是一般類還是保育類尤其是晚上"},{"start":2297.078,"end":2323.245,"text":"尤其是晚上基本上都是晚上所以大法官才會提到除有特殊例外除有特殊例外所以我才會說這個屬保育類的部分加個名字那個一般類的不用加就是屬保育類的那個部分加個名字兩個字"},{"start":2325.263,"end":2351.24,"text":"那白天我們當然就 你們就認定嘛 他是嘛 他知道嘛那晚上 這個也不是我所創的這個實務上 農業部也是這樣認為事實上也是 晚上本來就看不出來那個眼睛都是看那個動物的眼睛亮了就打了"},{"start":2352.439,"end":2380.78,"text":"所以這個部分在執行上應該不是那麼困難農業部可不可以說明一下我知道委員您在意的是說他獵捕的動物他不會知道是明知那我們是不是回到51條之一的我們這邊的序文我們今天序文他在獵捕宰殺動物的前提這個案子最主要的前半段他違反的是什麼是因為你用售假"},{"start":2386.806,"end":2400.661,"text":"主要的問題是因為他擅自使用那個售假那個售假他用售假他用我們的禁止的方法去獵捕動物只是獵捕的動物是野生動物或保育類野生動物或一般野生動物而有不同"},{"start":2401.201,"end":2422.581,"text":"所以如果委員擔心 那我們是不是在前面那個使用的概念上去寫說他因為基於王長長擅自使用那個第十九條第一項第一款、第七款、第八款所定禁止的方式就是說你的使用是擅自使用 是明知你明知他不可以用 像售假你不可以用 那你一定要去用"},{"start":2423.442,"end":2441.45,"text":"所以他其實不是在講後面的獵捕的動物獵捕動物他重點是在前面你使用什麼方式他處罰是因為你用這個方式去獵捕對我知道可是這個案子在51條之一被罰的是因為你用這種方式所以才會被罰"},{"start":2444.738,"end":2445.918,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":2476.017,"end":2489.224,"text":"講的是前面的部分但是51條不是只有這個部分你後半段你後半段對不對你經過核准或是經過被查"},{"start":2491.311,"end":2512.2,"text":"然後他用獵槍符合啊對不對他符合用獵槍啊他已經核准或者是符合被查的要件的他不小心去獵到保育類動物這是不會罰的只要他通報就不會被罰這邊會處罰的是他沒有經過申請"},{"start":2515.976,"end":2529.179,"text":"等於他就直接去列補然後又去列補的保育類才會進入到剛剛講的這個部分在這一款來處理所以只要是有依法申請的他誤補是不會被罰的"},{"start":2533.226,"end":2556.267,"text":"所以如果照你們這樣的說明這個就符合到剛剛那個鄭天財委員講的大法官的那個解釋嘛好那是不是那個手刺手刺不法手刺不法這個已經這個沒有問題了這沒問題這原條文就有了對好那政委我們是不是就照這個修正的文字本來原條文就有了原條文就有"},{"start":2559.244,"end":2576.345,"text":"首次不拔我們納進去有啊對啊對啊要把它納回來裝回來就對了有啦有啦剛剛有講來那個我們修正的文字是不是請議事人員再念一次好不好我們會加進來修正的文字是不是我請議事人員再念一次好嗎還是我們念一次好 那個農業部念一下"},{"start":2577.868,"end":2605.254,"text":"第一項51條之一第一項原住民族基於其傳統文化、技藝或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物使用第19條第一項第一款第7款或第8款所定禁止之方式或違反第21條之一第二項所定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之情形得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之"},{"start":2605.934,"end":2626.251,"text":"必要情形獵捕方式獵捕動物之種類數量獵捕期間區域或管理之規定者依下列規定處罰但首次違反者不罰一、屬保育類野生動物處清台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還不是用第41條規定二、"},{"start":2628.432,"end":2636.62,"text":"屬一般類野生動物儲新台幣1000元以上、1萬元以下罰還不適用第49條第一項第二款規定"},{"start":2644.258,"end":2664.279,"text":"好來那如果沒有問題我們就文字就照這樣修正通過好不好好那接下來我們要討論附帶決議那目前有這個蔡議員所提的附帶決議但是蔡委員已經同意撤案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有我們就照案通過那我們還有一個新的是鄭天才委員所提的附帶決議請宣讀"},{"start":2666.221,"end":2689.919,"text":"委員鄭天財所提附帶決議有介於套索等劣具在原住民族傳統文化具有不可替代性未來農業部依據《野生動物保育法》第十九條第一項第八款依法公告其他禁止獵捕野生動物之方法應先會商原住民族委員會後公告此外農業部應會同原住民族"},{"start":2690.379,"end":2709.625,"text":"委員會透過自主狩獵管理輔導團隊及地方原民行政體系競速至原住民族地區辦理說明會將資訊充分傳達部落族人了解宣讀完畢好這個遵照辦理好來那我們就照案通過"},{"start":2713.322,"end":2739.104,"text":"好來那我就唸一下協商結論我們今天的協商結論第19條條文照行政院提案的條文通過第21條21條之一第51條之一條文以及修正動議均照協商條文通過第25條維持現行條文審查會保留附帶決議一項測案然後有新增一個附帶決議"},{"start":2742.442,"end":2746.747,"text":"其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過,通過新增附帶決議以上"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:16:32.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:17:59.697000+08:00","text":"報告委員會，現在開始進行野保法的協商。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:18:50.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:19:19.169000+08:00","text":"上次的審查結論保留了 4個條文，分別是第十九\n條、第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第五十一條之一，此外，也保留了 1 項附帶決議，這幾個\n條文要交付黨團協商，所以今天我們就針對這幾個保留的條文進行協商。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:19:20.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:19:26.593000+08:00","text":"首先從第十九條開始，農業部的代表要再說明嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:19:26.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:19:37.622000+08:00","text":"林業署。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:19:37.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:19:38.383000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:19:40.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:19:45.323000+08:00","text":"針對上次被保留的第十九條及第二十一條，我們說明一下。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:19:47.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:19:52.705000+08:00","text":"第十九\n條的部分，我們針對金屬獸鋏是全面禁用。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:19:53.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:20:00.068000+08:00","text":"另外也接受委員的建議，納入原本的炸藥及爆裂物\n的使用。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:20:02.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:20:15.310000+08:00","text":"還有一個是所謂的金屬套索，考量到農民或原住民族的獵人在實務上還是會有需要，\n但是我們也考量到它可能會誤捕到像是黑熊之類的瀕危物種，所以我們希望特定規格，也就是\n大口徑的套索，可以透過一定時間的溝通之後能夠禁用，但是不宜全面禁用。","quality":0.314},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:20:15.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:20:16.310000+08:00","text":"第二十一條的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:20:16.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:20:17.310000+08:00","text":"好，那就是第十九條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:20:17.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:20:46.204000+08:00","text":"各位委員，請問對於第十九條的內容及文字有沒有什麼意見？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:20:54.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:21:30.137000+08:00","text":"我向大家再補充說明一下，上\n次討論的時候，大家對於獸鋏的部分其實是有兩派不同的意見及看法，有部分的委員認為應該\n要全面禁用金屬套索，然而我們也考量到原住民族的傳統狩獵及農民的防治獸害，其實某種程\n度上都還是有使用金屬套索的需求，不過農業部正在推廣改良式的獸鋏，今天他們也特別……","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:21:32.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:21:32.397000+08:00","text":"改良式獵具。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:21:32.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:21:33.397000+08:00","text":"370\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:21:32.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:21:41.259000+08:00","text":"改良式的金屬套索，今天也特地將實品帶到現場，讓各位委員能夠清楚了解。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:21:42.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:21:56.812000+08:00","text":"我認為兼具兩\n者不同的立場，建議是不是就維持行政院原來的條文內容，請問各位委員可以接受嗎？接受。可以。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:21:58.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:22:00.899000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝各位委員的支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:22:01.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:22:06.149000+08:00","text":"第十九條就按照行政院的提案條文通過。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:22:06.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:22:16.411000+08:00","text":"接下來要討論第二十一條，農業部還有建議的條文，是不是……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:22:18.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:22:35.985000+08:00","text":"第二十一條的部分，上次經過委員大家的討論，我們接受委員的意見，有關於第一項\n排除的部分，第十九條第一項本來是第一款也排除，但是我們現在認為第一項的炸藥及其他爆\n裂物不能例外使用，因此，第二十一條及第二十一條之一的款次就要變成「不受第十九條第一\n項第二款至第六款」，這是第二十一條及第二十一條之一在第一項的部分與我們修正的建議，\n以上。","quality":0.47},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:22:36.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:22:38.826000+08:00","text":"各位委員，第二十一條及第二十一條之一就是款次的調整、文字上做一些調整，請問大家有\n沒有意見？沒有。","quality":0.628},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:22:38.826000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:10.919000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：是先討論第二十一條嗎？","quality":0.174},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:10.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:10.919000+08:00","text":"第二十一條，對啊！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:11.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:11.159000+08:00","text":"第二十一條之一。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:23:11.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:14.221000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為你剛才有提到第二十一條之一。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:14.221000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:17.283000+08:00","text":"兩個情形是一致的。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:17.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:18.004000+08:00","text":"兩個是一樣的啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:18.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:24.568000+08:00","text":"因為我們把炸藥列為禁止的項目之一，所以它的條次款項要做一些調整。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:25.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:38.658000+08:00","text":"就是在緊急獵捕需要的時候，我們也不可以使用炸藥，第一款就要排除不能用，所以\n炸藥是全面禁用，即使緊急的狀況也不可以使用，這是第二十一條的規定，以上。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:38.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:40.118667+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，我補充說明一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:23:40.118667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:41.579333+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我對第二十一條沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:41.579333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:43.040000+08:00","text":"第二十一條有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:43.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:23:44.421000+08:00","text":"沒有意見的話，第二十一條就照農業部提供的建議條文修正通過，\n好不好？好。","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:23:44.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:10.735000+08:00","text":"可以喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:10.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:11.636000+08:00","text":"我們是否需要再讀一次？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:12.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:13.377000+08:00","text":"請議事人員宣讀第二十一條的修正文字。","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:14.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:37.150000+08:00","text":"第二十一條  野生動物有下列情形之一者，得予以獵捕或宰殺，不受第十七條第一項、第十八條\n第一項及第十九條第一項第二款至第六款規定之限制。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:37.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:47.174000+08:00","text":"但保育類野生動物除情況緊急\n外，應先報請主管機關處理：\n一、有危及公共安全或人類性命之虞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:47.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:50.435000+08:00","text":"二、危害農林作物、家禽、家畜或水產養殖。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:50.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:52.956000+08:00","text":"三、傳播疾病或病蟲害。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:53.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:55.157000+08:00","text":"371\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n四、有妨礙航空安全之虞。","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:55.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:24:58.278000+08:00","text":"五、其他經主管機關核准之情形。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:24:59.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:25:15.370000+08:00","text":"保育類野生動物有危害農林作物、家禽、家畜或水產養殖，在緊急情況下，未及\n報請主管機關處理者，得以主管機關核定之人道方式予以獵捕或宰殺以防治危害。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:25:19.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:25:26.239000+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，第二十一條是不是就照農業部建議的條文文字修正通過，好嗎？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:25:26.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:25:27.459000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:25:27.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:25:42.407000+08:00","text":"接下來是第二十一條之一，這條也是因為第十九條第一項所列的方法，所以我們也是就文字\n上做一些調整，請議事人員唸一下。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:26:02.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:26:20.464000+08:00","text":"第二十一條之一  臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用，而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野\n生動物之必要者，不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項第二\n款至第六款規定之限制。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:26:31.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:26:59.463000+08:00","text":"第二項「前項獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准或備查；\n其申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形，申\n請程序、應檢附文件、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域、管\n理及其他應遵行事項之辦法，由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。」","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:27:02.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:27:07.743000+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，第二十一條之一是否就照這樣的文字修正通過？好。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:27:07.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:27:08.104000+08:00","text":"伍麗華委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:27:11.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:27:47.414000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我也說明一下，這次的修法其實是為了回應司法院大法官對於\n獵人王光祿案做出的釋字 803 號解釋，因此在第二十一條之一增列了非營利自用的要件，納入\n了原住民的獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物的除罪化範圍，將它改採備查制，原住民獵捕野生動物\n以行政處罰取代刑罰。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:27:47.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:28:07.425000+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，我在上個會期就已經做過提案、也溝通過，基於大法官\n解釋是對於原住民狩獵權的維護、也基於民間社會提倡的人道考量，對於全面禁用獸鋏，後來\n本席是予以尊重。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:28:08.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:29:01.863000+08:00","text":"既然大法官作出解釋，我們的修法內容也符合它的解釋意旨，因此以行政罰\n替代刑罰的部分，我對於這個條文的文字修正不堅持，但我就是要確保在法令落實的操作過程\n中，就與過去的獵槍一樣，不會因為法條創造的一個模糊空間，到時候讓檢察官及法官會有不\n同的解釋，所以我很堅持在第二十一條之一，只要是原住民基於傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用\n，而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要，不管獵具的類別或野生動物的類別，都不要用刑罰\n處罰，並在第二項訂定原住民獵捕野生動物所應遵循的辦法，這個部分我一定要再次的強調，\n謝謝。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:29:01.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:29:46.468000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：現行的第二十一條之一有幾個部分，第一個，過去現行的條文只有寫傳\n統文化及祭儀兩個部分，因為原住民基本法在 94 年 2 月 5 日公布施行之後一直沒有修法，雖然\n我們在第 8 屆、第 9 屆、第 10 屆一直都有提案，但是也一直都沒有通過，所以我在 105 年就透\n過相關的解釋……可能更早吧！","quality":0.793},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:29:55.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:30:12.023000+08:00","text":"106 年的解釋包含了原基法所謂的非營利自用，事實上，這個部\n372\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n分在 106 年之後有「非營利自用」就已經可以了。","quality":0.589},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:30:13.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:30:23.229000+08:00","text":"第二個，之前提到所有的案子都要經過核准，這是不合理的，所以我改為備查。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:30:23.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:30:42.001000+08:00","text":"既然你們現\n在把核准與備查都列在這個條文裡，那麼子法一定要考量到實際的需求，像我們在原鄉還要下\n山給你們核准，事實上就是勞民傷財。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:30:46.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:31:07.878000+08:00","text":"現在就是文字的統一性，我們可以看看後面的條文，包括其他法律的條文，由於之前這條是\n單獨的修正，因此我建議可以將「臺灣原住民族」的「臺灣」2 個字刪除。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:31:09.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:31:21.706000+08:00","text":"其實後面的條文也只\n有寫「原住民族」、其他的法律條文也都只有寫「原住民族」，譬如原住民族基本法，而不是\n臺灣原住民族基本法；譬如原住民族委員會，而不是臺灣原住民族委員會。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:31:21.706000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:31:47.085000+08:00","text":"包括其他的法律都\n是寫「原住民族」，因為是我們自己的法律，當然是指臺灣的原住民，不會是國外的原住民，\n我們去看後面的條文就有了，以上建議。","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:31:47.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:31:59.095000+08:00","text":"剛剛伍委員的提案其實已經在待會要討論的第五十一條之一處理了，至於鄭天財委員\n的建議，我們就遵照辦理，把「臺灣」2個字刪除。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:03.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:05.419000+08:00","text":"法務部有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:05.419000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:09.795500+08:00","text":"林參事豐文：尊重……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:32:09.795500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:14.172000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：第五十一條之一就是只有……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:14.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:25.636000+08:00","text":"基於法律的一致性，第二十一條之一的「臺灣」2 個字刪除，一樣就是寫「原住民族……」\n。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:27.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:34.198000+08:00","text":"後面的修正文字是不是就照原來的提案通過，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:35.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:36.059000+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:36.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:39.380000+08:00","text":"應該是照農業部的修正建議條\n文通過，謝謝。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:39.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:59.062000+08:00","text":"接下來要討論第二十五條，因為第二十五條是由洪孟楷委員等人提案，逕付二讀，並沒有在\n委員會裡有過討論，所以我們現在把它放進來討論，洪孟楷委員也在現場，是不是請洪委員說\n明？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:32:59.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:32:59.542000+08:00","text":"感謝召委！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:33:00.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:33:35.036000+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，雖然現行條文已經表示要經中央主管機關同意，但是從過\n去到現在，我們也看到輸入保育類野生動物或相關產製品時發生過一些爭議，在這樣的爭議情\n況下，還是會令人質疑到底中央主管機關把關的部分夠不夠嚴謹及充分，因此，我才會加上「\n應具環境教育機構之資格，並經中央主管機關同意。」。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:33:35.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:33:38.818000+08:00","text":"其實主要是在於保育類野生動物，並\n非一般動物，而是保育類野生動物。","quality":0.448},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:33:43.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:34:01.060000+08:00","text":"再加上雖然行政部門提到這些機關可能會有學術交流等等\n的部分，但是就保育類野生動物而言，是不是有那麼頻繁的需要做輸入輸出的狀況，我想這也\n是值得商榷。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:34:02.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:34:02.942000+08:00","text":"因此，是不是大家可以研究一下？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:34:03.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:34:14.634000+08:00","text":"或者主管機關是不是在相關的立法說明或怎麼\n樣能夠有一些比較嚴謹的規定，不要讓過去發生過的弊端再次發生，好不好？","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:34:18.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:34:34.871000+08:00","text":"報告委員，關於委員建議加入「具環境教育機構之資格」，就我們去查現有大專院校\n研究機構的部分，大多都不是屬於環境教育機構。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:34:35.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:35:06.742000+08:00","text":"基本上，如果要加上這樣的要件，這個最主\n要是為學術交流目的而來，所以目前我們在輸入的時候都會做相當的審核，而且是要基於學術\n教育等公共目的及用途，在通過我們很嚴格的審查之後，它才可以輸入，因此，建議是不是維\n373\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n持我們目前的審查機制、維持現在的現行條文？以上。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:35:10.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:35:11.574000+08:00","text":"請問其他委員有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:35:11.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:35:14.637000+08:00","text":"陳亭妃委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2024-12-04T12:35:14.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:35:23.025000+08:00","text":"我想農業部也做了很清楚的說明，因此，我覺得還是維持行政院版本的建議條文。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T12:35:26.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:35:27.830000+08:00","text":"主席，我可不可以稍微補充一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T12:35:28.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:35:59.806000+08:00","text":"剛剛洪委員所提到的，當然增加「具環境教育機構\n之資格」會造成更多制度的審查，但因為我們是要經中央主管機關同意，所以在經中央主管機\n關同意的過程中，也許在立法說明可以再做一些說明，譬如我要同意它的時候應該要具備什麼\n樣的資格條件，可以在立法說明去說明以後中央主管機關同意是基於什麼樣的原則。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T12:35:59.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:36:09.709000+08:00","text":"這樣就是\n原條文不改，但我們在立法說明直接調整，不然，如果在條文明定應「具環境教育機構之資格\n」，就會造成困擾，以上。","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:36:12.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:36:33.302000+08:00","text":"主席，部長剛剛講的部分，我們也是希望能夠加強，不要再有弊端產生，其實保育類\n野生動物輸入輸出本來就有一定的嚴謹性，因此，關於文字的部分，是不是能請同仁給我稍微\n看一下？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:36:33.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:36:54.732000+08:00","text":"如果在我看過之後認為 OK 的話，我對於這一條就不再堅持，可以依照現行條文，但是\n你的文字要如何確保未來中央主管機關審查過程的嚴謹性或是中央主管機關同意的方向，至少\n要讓我知道，可以嗎？","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:36:59.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:37:10.299000+08:00","text":"我們就文字不改、條文不改，維持現行條文，有一些補充說明的部分，是不是再送給洪孟楷\n委員，好嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:37:10.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:37:13.640000+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，有沒有其他意見？沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:37:16.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:37:21.643000+08:00","text":"洪孟楷委員的提案就維持現行條文，不予修正。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:37:22.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:37:35.234000+08:00","text":"接下來是第五十一條之一，分別有張啓楷委員及本席的修正動議，是不是請張委員先補充說\n明一下？謝謝。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:37:35.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:37:40.717000+08:00","text":"我看了行政院版跟很多委員的提案，內容大致上是大同小異啦！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:37:41.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:38.445000+08:00","text":"我是提出這邊增加「\n基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物，違反依第二十一條之一第二\n項所定辦法中有關申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、\n獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者，依下列規定處罰：」第\n一個是「屬保育類野生動物，處新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下」，第二個是「屬一般類野生動\n物，處新臺幣一千元以上一萬元以下」。","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:38.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:39.445000+08:00","text":"其中有一個很重要的條文，「首次違反前項行為者，\n不罰」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:39.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:40.445000+08:00","text":"「因過失犯第一項第一款之行為者，處新臺幣五千元以上二萬元以下」，我看其他很\n多委員的提案都是比較類似的，所以這個條文應該是爭議性不大，這是第一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:40.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:41.445000+08:00","text":"第二個，抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:41.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:42.445000+08:00","text":"剛剛高金委員提了一個修正動議，我是幫她唸或是送上去即可？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:42.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:43.445000+08:00","text":"其實內容都\n是大同小異，像是雅琳及伍麗華的整個提案都差不多嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:43.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:44.445000+08:00","text":"這個讓議事人員看一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:44.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:45.445000+08:00","text":"因為現在突然送上來，我們都還沒看到文字內容。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:45.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:46.445000+08:00","text":"我的案子本來就列在裡面啊！","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:46.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:47.445000+08:00","text":"高金委員的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:47.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:48.445000+08:00","text":"或者你說的是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:48.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:49.445000+08:00","text":"374\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:49.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:50.445000+08:00","text":"有我的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:50.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:51.445000+08:00","text":"在裡面，本來就有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:51.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:52.445000+08:00","text":"所以現在不是高金委員的，而是用你的名字提案就對了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:52.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:53.445000+08:00","text":"對，高金委員這個怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:53.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:54.445000+08:00","text":"她要我幫她，所以我送上來就好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:54.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:55.445000+08:00","text":"高金委員這個怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:55.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:56.445000+08:00","text":"剛剛你不是已經說明了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:56.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:57.445000+08:00","text":"對，我說明的是我的提案喔！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:57.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:58.445000+08:00","text":"我就告訴你這裡面有張啓楷的案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:58.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:46:59.445000+08:00","text":"你現在說明的是張啓楷的提案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:59.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:00.445000+08:00","text":"我說的是我和她一起連署的提案，高金委員的案子就送上來一起討論，好不好？沒事\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:00.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:01.445000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:01.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:02.445000+08:00","text":"現在是高金委員有另外一個案，所以你的案與高金委員的案是兩個不同的案，或者\n高金委員是用你的名字提案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:02.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:03.445000+08:00","text":"是兩個案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:03.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:04.445000+08:00","text":"你看嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:04.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:05.445000+08:00","text":"他講的是兩個案，但現在我的手頭上只有一個案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:05.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:06.445000+08:00","text":"用高金委員這個討論好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:06.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:07.445000+08:00","text":"好，就用高金委員的提案討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:07.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:08.445000+08:00","text":"高金委員的提案應該就是加了首次不罰，農業部要不要……\n鄭天財委員先講。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:08.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:09.445000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：這是一個重要的條文，第五十一條之一，第一個，我們看農業部所提的\n建議條文，與現行條文有很大的差別，我是建議將農業部建議條文的第八款刪除，為什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:09.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:10.445000+08:00","text":"如果回到「使用第十九條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款」的「第八款」，因為第十九條已經\n有變動了，這是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:10.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:11.445000+08:00","text":"第二點，第十九條的第一款一定是最嚴重的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:11.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:12.445000+08:00","text":"一直到後面的\n第七款、第八款，其他有授權給你們的一定是比較輕微的，因為很嚴重的都已經在第一款、第\n二款、第三款及第四款，這是一個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:12.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:13.445000+08:00","text":"因此，我建議將第五十一條之一提到的「使用第十九\n條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款」的「第八款」刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:13.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:14.445000+08:00","text":"第二個，為什麼還是要首次違反者不罰？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:14.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:15.445000+08:00","text":"因為我們也作了不同的修正，譬如獸鋏，大家過去\n都習慣使用獸鋏，但是當初第十九條規定的第一項各款都是原住民可以做的，現行條文是這樣\n喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:15.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:16.445000+08:00","text":"如今第十九條也作了修正，舉個例子，過去可以使用獸鋏，但是在新條文規定之下就不能\n使用獸鋏，因此還是要宣導、還是要宣導，所以還是要有首次不罰，希望農業部能夠接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:16.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:17.445000+08:00","text":"第三個，你們現在增列了保育類與非保育類，也就是一般類。","quality":0.042},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:17.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:18.445000+08:00","text":"屬於保育類的部分，對大法官\n的第 803 號解釋，你們不能只看一個部分，還要看哪個部分？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:18.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:19.445000+08:00","text":"這裡面提到了一句話，除有特殊\n例外，在說明二，實務上，獵捕野生動物雖無法預知所獵捕到之野生動物為一般類或保育類，\n這是事實，沒有錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:19.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:20.445000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:20.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:21.445000+08:00","text":"既然無法預知，大法官的解釋文也提到，除有特殊情形外，因此\n，我們考慮到這個部分，如果你要區分為保育類與一般類的話，我建議將第一款的「屬保育類\n野生動物」改成「明知屬保育類野生動物」，也就是加上「明知」2 個字，這樣就符合了大法官\n憲判的解釋。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:21.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:22.445000+08:00","text":"在這樣的情形之下，如果能加上「明知」就更符合，因為這裡面本來就有寫「除\n有特殊例外」，這是大法官的用詞，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:47:22.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:23.445000+08:00","text":"375\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:23.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:24.445000+08:00","text":"在伍麗華委員發言完畢之後，再請農業部回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:24.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:25.445000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：關於第五十一條之一，剛才署長說它是處理原住民違反第二十\n一條之一第二項所定辦法時，應該受到行政罰的條款，但是在這次修正之後，前面的其他條文\n如果涉及到原住民獵捕野生動物的限制內容，例如使用獸鋏等等，我這邊是主張都應該要在本\n條當中明確處理，寫清楚以行政罰處罰即可。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:25.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:26.445000+08:00","text":"因此，在這樣的原則之下，我的建議修正文字是\n「原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物，」加上「使用第\n十九條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款所定禁止之方式，或違反第二十一條之一第二項」增加\n「所定辦法中有關申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、\n獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者，依下列規定處罰：一、\n屬保育類野生動物，處新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰鍰，不適用第四十一條規定。","quality":0.147},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:46:49.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:00.193000+08:00","text":"二、屬一\n般類野生動物，處新臺幣一千元以上一萬元下罰鍰，不適用第四十九條第一項第二款規定。」\n。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:00.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:14.359000+08:00","text":"因為這個條文從上個會期就已經與許多委員及農業部溝通過很多次，應該是沒有什麼問題，\n也在這邊很謝謝能有這樣的共識。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:15.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:24.483000+08:00","text":"另外，針對剛才的那個「首次」，我認為這個定義不太明確，到底這個「首次」是什麼首次\n？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:24.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:48.818000+08:00","text":"因為有很多的條款，所以這個部分可能需要再做更清楚的定義，要不然還是會落到我剛才所\n講的情況，現在我們要的就是確保，不希望因為法條所創造出的模糊空間，到時候又讓檢察官\n及法官有不同的解釋，我希望這個部分要注意，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:51.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:52.260000+08:00","text":"農業部要先說明，還是法務部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:53.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:47:58.424000+08:00","text":"針對 2個問題，一個是首次不罰在文字上的規定是不是夠明\n確？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:47:58.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:48:15.104000+08:00","text":"第二個是剛剛鄭天財委員所提的，後面要加上「明知屬保育類野生動物」或「明知屬一般\n類野生動物」，我不知道法律用語上是否可以這樣寫，待會可能要請法務部提供專業意見。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:48:15.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:48:15.384000+08:00","text":"農業部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:48:18.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:48:26.528000+08:00","text":"報告委員，針對首次違反者不罰的部分，因為這是現行條文，以前在執行上都不會有\n問題，為什麼？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:48:26.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:48:46.423000+08:00","text":"因為首次不罰是指那個行為人、要被處罰的那個人，用這個人來看，這個人第\n一次違反這個規定才會被罰，在認定上不會有太大的困難、不會把你的首次當成我的首次，所\n以不會有問題，這是目前執行上的說明。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:48:47.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:49:00.617000+08:00","text":"另外，針對委員要將第八款排除的建議，我要先說明，這一條的罰則是因應第二十一條之一\n來的，因此要回到第二十一條之一去看。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:49:01.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:49:18.909000+08:00","text":"第二十一條之一只有排除第二款到第六款，所以是依\n第一款、第七款或第八款，也就是這三款並沒有排除，因為它沒有排除，如果違反就要依第五\n十一條之一予以處罰。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:49:20.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:49:58.745000+08:00","text":"如果委員認為第八款不該放進來，可能要回頭處理第二十一條之一的條\n文，因為它的義務條文是在第二十一條之一，所以原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自\n用而獵捕宰殺動物不可以使用經中央主管機關公告的方式、公告禁止的方法，一旦違反了這一\n條的規定，它的處罰就會回到第五十一條之一，會處行政罰，不適用刑罰的規定，以上說明。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:50:01.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:50:22.833000+08:00","text":"簡單說，第五十一條之一其實是對應第二十一條之一而產生的罰則，因為剛剛第二十一條之\n一已經文字修正通過，所以第五十一條之一的罰則對應上面是不是就比照前面第二十一條之一\n罰責的部分？","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:50:24.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:50:25.655000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛的 2 個問題，法務部可不可以補充說明一下？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:50:29.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:50:30.909000+08:00","text":"376\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n林參事豐文：主席、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0.31},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:50:32.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:50:37.474000+08:00","text":"關於剛才幾位委員所提的疑問，在此一併提出說明。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:50:38.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:50:56.727000+08:00","text":"第一\n個問題，關於首次的認定，原本在現行法就已經有首次不罰的規定，因此，對於主管機關而言\n，認定首次應該不是太大的問題，因為這個法已經施行一段時間了。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:50:56.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:51:23.199000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，剛才有委員提到要不要加上「明知」這個要件，報告各位委員，以刑法而言，\n「明知」2 個字就變成必須是直接故意，等於是排除未必故意，這樣等於加重主管機關或檢察機\n關的舉證責任。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:51:23.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:51:49.979000+08:00","text":"未來在執法的過程當中，該如何舉證他明明知道是保育類野生動物，這個部分\n可能會有事實上的困難，因為在捕獵的過程中，譬如採用陷阱的方式，我不可能預先知道我會\n捕獲什麼東西，或者是在很遠的距離用獵槍瞄準，也不一定能夠判斷自己要打的對象就是保育\n類野生動物。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:51:51.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:52:06.332000+08:00","text":"也就是說，加上「明知」這個要件之後，很可能因為舉證上的困難，以至於這樣\n的處罰規定怕會達不到主管機關所希望達到的政策目的。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:52:07.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:52:16.400000+08:00","text":"因此，加上「明知」2 個字，等於是在\n要件上非常嚴格，將來在舉證上就會產生比較大的困難。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:52:16.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:52:19.332000+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛拿到伍委員的條文文字，它提到要特別排除第十九條第一項的第一款、第七款或\n第八款，這個與主管機關的政策似乎是不太一致，但是這個部分不是法律上的問題，而是政策\n上的問題，所以我們尊重主管機關及大院的決定，以上報告。","quality":0.03},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:52:19.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:52:59.812000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：法務部要聽清楚我的意見，無論是農業部或是大法官，先聽清楚！","quality":0.744},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:53:02.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:53:20.119000+08:00","text":"都已\n經講得很清楚，實務上，獵捕野生動物雖無法預知所獵捕到之野生動物為一般類或保育類，尤\n其是晚上、尤其是晚上，基本上都是晚上嘛！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:53:23.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:53:43.225000+08:00","text":"因此，大法官才會提到除有特殊例外、除有特殊\n例外，也因此我才會提出在屬保育類的部分加上「明知」，一般類的前面不用加，就是在屬保\n育類的部分加上「明知」2 個字。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:53:45.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:53:49.086000+08:00","text":"白天當然你們就認定他是、他知道嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:53:50.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:54:01.274000+08:00","text":"至於晚上，這個也不是\n我首創的，實務上農業部也是這樣認為啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:54:01.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:54:01.994000+08:00","text":"事實上也是啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:54:02.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:54:19.124000+08:00","text":"晚上本來就看不出來，都是看到動\n物亮亮的眼睛就打了，因此，這個部分在執行上應該不是那麼困難。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:54:25.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:54:39.659000+08:00","text":"我知道委員在意的是他獵捕動物不會是明知，所以我們是不是回到第五十一條之一的\n序文，在獵捕宰殺動物的前提下，這個案子最主要的前半段違反的是什麼？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:54:39.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:55:00.641000+08:00","text":"是因為你使用獸鋏\n去獵捕動物，獵捕動物是結果，但主要的問題是因為你擅自使用獸鋏、你使用我們禁止的方法\n去獵捕動物，只是獵捕到的是保育類野生動物或一般類野生動物而有不同。","quality":0.701},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:55:01.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:55:41.450000+08:00","text":"如果委員擔心，我\n們是不是在前面那個使用的概念上，寫上「基於……擅自使用第十九條第一項第一款、第七款\n或第八款所定禁止的方式」，也就是說，你的擅自使用是明知不可以用，像獸鋏不可使用，但\n你卻一定要使用，所以這裡並不是講後面獵捕到的動物，重點是在前面，你使用了什麼方式，\n處罰是因為你用這個方式去獵捕，這個案子在第五十一條之一是因為你用這種方式才會被罰。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"吳處長芙蓉","start":"2024-12-04T12:55:41.450000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:16.017000+08:00","text":"至於後面要不要區分保育類野生動物及一般類野生動物的罰則，這是另外一個問題，但是前面\n這個處罰要件是講你使用了這個工具、禁止的工具。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:16.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:22.160000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：你講的是前面的部分，但是第五十一條之一不是只有這個部分，還有後\n半段啊！","quality":0.489},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:25.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:26.402000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:27.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:34.853000+08:00","text":"經過核准或經過備查，使用獵槍是符合規定啊！","quality":0.737},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:37.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:37.674000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:37.674000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:38.674000+08:00","text":"符合啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:38.674000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:39.674000+08:00","text":"使用獵槍\n377\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:56:37.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:37.954000+08:00","text":"他符合那個……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:56:41.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:56:51.059000+08:00","text":"委員，已經核准或是符合備查的要件，不小心獵到保育類動物並不會罰，只要他通報\n就不會被罰。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:56:51.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:03.649000+08:00","text":"這邊會處罰的是他沒有經過申請，等於是他就直接去獵捕，又獵捕到保育類動物\n，才會進入到剛剛講的這個部分來處理。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"林署長華慶","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:05.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:09.158000+08:00","text":"因此，只要是依法申請者，誤捕是不會被罰的。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:13.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:19.932000+08:00","text":"如果依照你們這樣的說明，這個就符合剛剛鄭天財委員講的大法官解釋嘛！對。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:57:19.932000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:23.775000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：首次不罰……","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:23.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:27.639000+08:00","text":"首次不罰已經沒問題，這個在原條文就有了。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:29.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:31.783000+08:00","text":"鄭委員，我們是不是就照修正的文字……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:57:31.783000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:34.085000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：首次不罰要不要放進去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:34.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:36.247000+08:00","text":"本來原條文就有了、原條文就有了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T12:57:36.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:39.244000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我是說現在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:39.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:40.345000+08:00","text":"我們將首次不罰納進去。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:42.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:45.912000+08:00","text":"再把它納回來、抓回來就對了，同意加進來。有啦！有啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:46.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:46.953000+08:00","text":"剛剛有講了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:47.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:49.917000+08:00","text":"我們修正的文字，是不是請議事人員再念一次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:52.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:57:54.203000+08:00","text":"請議事人員再念\n一次修正文字，好嗎？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:57:54.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:58:46.050000+08:00","text":"第五十一條之一第一項：原住民族基於其傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野\n生動物，使用第十九條第一項第一款、第七款或第八款所定禁止之方式，或違反第二十一條之\n一第二項所定辦法中有關申請核准或備查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要\n情形、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者，依下列規定處罰\n，但首次違反者不罰：一、屬保育類野生動物，處新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰鍰，不適用\n第四十一條規定。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:58:46.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:58:56.600000+08:00","text":"二、屬一般類野生動物，處新臺幣一千元以上一萬元下罰鍰，不適用第四十\n九條第一項第二款規定。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:04.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:59:08.062000+08:00","text":"如果沒有問題，文字就照這樣修正通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:09.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:59:18.373000+08:00","text":"接下來要討論附帶決議，目前有蔡易餘委員所提的附帶決議，但是蔡委員已經同意撤案，請\n問各位委員有沒有意見？沒有。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:18.373000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:59:20.976000+08:00","text":"這項附帶決議就撤案不予處理。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:20.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:59:24.279000+08:00","text":"現在還有新增鄭天財委員所提的附帶決議，請宣讀。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:24.279000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T12:59:28.683000+08:00","text":"附帶決議\n《野生動物保育法》第十九條條文修正公布施行後，農業部得依據該條第一項第八款公告禁\n止獵捕方法，將影響原住民族基於傳統文化、祭儀及非營利自用，以傳統套索等獵具狩獵野生\n動物之模式。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:28.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T12:59:46.556000+08:00","text":"有鑑於套索等獵具，在原住民族傳統文化具有不可替代性，未來農業部依據《野\n生動物保育法》第十九條第一項第八款依法公告其他禁止獵捕野生動物之方法，應先會商原住\n民族委員會後公告。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T12:59:47.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:03.663000+08:00","text":"此外，農業部應會同原住民族委員會透過自主狩獵管理並將團隊，及地方\n378\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n原民行政體系，儘速至原住民族地區辦理說明會，將資訊充分傳達部落族人瞭解。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"提案人","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:03.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:05.844000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw   楊瓊瓔  謝衣鳯","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:05.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:06.304000+08:00","text":"這個遵照辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:08.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:09.625000+08:00","text":"我們就照案通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:14.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:32.878000+08:00","text":"我唸一下協商結論：第十九條照行政院提案條文通過；第二十一條、第二十一條之一、第五\n十一條之一條文及修正動議均照協商條文通過；第二十五條維持現行條文。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:34.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:46.587000+08:00","text":"審查會保留附帶決\n議一項撤案，並新增一項附帶決議，其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過，通過新增附帶決議一\n項。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:47.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:53.087000+08:00","text":"如果沒有問題的話，今天協商就到此結束，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:53.387000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:54.387000+08:00","text":"散會（13時）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:54.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:00:57.544143+08:00","text":"我們現在開始協商會議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:00:57.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:01:08.987000+08:00","text":"該到的委員、各黨團的代表、對這個法案有興趣的委員，大家紛紛到場了，我們現在開始協\n商會議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:01:09.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:01:42.429857+08:00","text":"本日協商主題是本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員蔡易餘等 19 人擬具運動產業\n發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案等 5 案，還有經院會逕付二讀與相關提案併案協商之委\n員洪孟楷等 19 人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文修正草\n案 1案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:01:42.729857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:02:35.301286+08:00","text":"接下來要進行協商，我們協商的時候，請各位委員參照協商條文對照表跟審查報告，還有逕\n付二讀的提案關係文書；與會委員如果有修正動議，或者是機關有建議內容，請提出書面印發\n現場來進行討論；還有，要特別報告，因為蔡易餘委員在第 1 會期第 22 次會議將提案撤回，所\n以蔡易餘委員的提案就撤回，也經過院會的同意，所以他的這項提案不納入本次的協商討論，\n所以目前為止我們所印的這些有關於蔡易餘委員的部分就是空白的，大家可以看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:02:35.601286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:02:59.887000+08:00","text":"掀起各位委員的記憶一下，我們的審查會於 113 年 7 月 11 號審查完竣之後，我們的審查結果\n是保留增訂第七條之二（就是我們今天要討論的重點）跟增訂第七條之三，還有附帶決議 1 案\n；並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:03:00.187000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:03:07.901286+08:00","text":"我們先依條文的順序討論保留的條文，最後我們再討論附\n帶決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:03:08.201286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:03:26.201286+08:00","text":"我就先報告到這邊，針對第七條之二的部分，我們先請這些提案的委員來做一些說明\n，委員發言之後，我們再請教育部體育署來做相關的一些詢答，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:03:26.501286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:04:00.787000+08:00","text":"第七條之二的部分，大家先看一下今天新發的資料，對於第七條之一，沒有問題，我就不用\n再贅述了；第七條之二的部分，提會討論的版本，我先唸一次，大家也可以看一下我們的螢幕\n上面的文字：「第七條之二 為健全職業與業餘運動業之發展，中央主管機關應積極輔導相關\n賽事之運動員工會成立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:04:01.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:04:09.087000+08:00","text":"」這是我們的提會版本，委員對於這樣的版本、第七條之二有沒有想\n法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:04:09.387000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:04:11.101286+08:00","text":"請陳培瑜委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T13:04:11.401286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:04:12.544143+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T13:04:12.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:04:37.701286+08:00","text":"我的版本裡面是在「工會」後面再加上「或團體」，主要是因為運動團體\n380\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n不會只是有工會的型態，像日本他們就有協會，假設未來在臺灣有各式各樣運動團體的成立，\n我認為也要納入。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T13:04:38.001286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:04:56.572714+08:00","text":"我們版本的第二項提到「前項運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、業務費用與基本人事費、團\n體協約簽定之獎、補助……」，我希望還是由中央主管機關訂定相關辦法，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:04:56.872714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:05:06.015571+08:00","text":"就是你原來刪除的「團體」，這次認為還是把它納入會比較好一點就對了，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:05:06.315571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:05:07.744143+08:00","text":"請國昌委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:05:08.044143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:05:46.329857+08:00","text":"第七條之二的部分，今天我們的主管機關，就第一項的部分，我相信大家應該沒有什\n麼太大的反對意見，不過，我要附和一下陳培瑜委員剛剛所提出來的兩點意見，因為我必須要\n說，我們這次在討論這個條例，甚至包括第七條之二增訂本身，其實真正希望的是能夠保護、\n保障這些運動員，以及這些運動員他們團結起來以後的權利。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:05:46.629857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:06:02.058429+08:00","text":"因此，我們黨團在處理這件事情\n的時候，我們會特別地重視目前運動員他們已經成立的工會或者是團體所提出來的意見以及建\n議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:06:02.358429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:06:25.215571+08:00","text":"到目前為止，我們所收到相關運動員所成立的工會或者是團體，他們基本上所表達的訴求\n，其實跟剛剛陳培瑜委員所講的內容是相互一致的，第一個，除了工會以外，是不是應該再增\n加「團體」的型態？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:06:25.515571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:06:46.658429+08:00","text":"因為好像沒有什麼法律上面必要的理由，就只限於工會這種型態，其他團\n體協會的型態就要把它排除在外，因為它事實上只牽涉到組織型態的問題，那個本質、本身並\n沒有什麼改變。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:06:46.958429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:07:26.387000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，輔導他們成立這件事情，某個程度上面來講，對運動員而言，這到底是一個看\n得到吃不到，還是看得到也吃得到而且現實上面可以產生具體法律效果的條文，也是他們很關\n切的，正是因為這個樣子，所以他們才會提議，就運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、業務費用\n與團體協約簽定之獎、補助及其他相關辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:07:26.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:08:00.972714+08:00","text":"事實上，如果我們對於這\n一些團體在第一項所謂「輔導」這個抽象的名詞之外，在第二項的法律層次上面，針對於有關\n主管機關藉由法律的授權，給主管機關訂定相當的辦法，等於是立法者、我們簽了一張授權的\n支票給行政機關，讓行政機關在訂定這些相關子法的時候，有法律可以做清楚的依循。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:08:01.272714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:08:46.129857+08:00","text":"而它所\n產生的法律效力，也會提升到有關於法律授權命令這樣子的層次，對於主管機關來說，相關事\n務的處理，其實我相信我們機關的次長也好、署長也好，應該可以很清楚地知道，當立法者願\n意做這樣的授權的時候，其實具體的辦法還是交給你們加以訂定，所以是不是我們行政部門這\n一邊，也可以能夠去理解或者感受到這些運動員工會他們所提出來的訴求跟需求予以同意？以\n上。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:08:46.429857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:08:47.429857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:08:47.729857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:08:54.587000+08:00","text":"請張雅琳委員，委員一併發言完畢後，再請我們教育部回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:08:54.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:09:06.029857+08:00","text":"我自己想要做個提醒，如果我們今天出了人事費跟業務費用，會不會又有違反國家中\n立的原則？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:09:06.329857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:09:29.472714+08:00","text":"這是第一個部分；第二個，在實務上，其實針對其他的團體，我們並沒有類似的作\n法，所以如果有這樣子的條文的話，我覺得未來在跟其他團體上面，相關的工會要成立的時候\n，會不會有一些問題出現呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:09:29.772714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:10:04.915571+08:00","text":"再來，我們是不是可以讓這個運動員工會直接回到勞工主管機關\n的工會業務系統裡面，讓它來一併處理，就是它有所有工會團體通用的一個原則在，如果我們\n381\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n擔心這些運動員成立工會有點困難，那我們體育署是不是可以提供一些專款讓他們做使用、去\n補助？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:10:05.215571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:10:06.358429+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:10:06.658429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:10:43.801286+08:00","text":"我認為運動產業真的有它的特殊性，所以主管機關要積極協助建立友善的\n勞動環境，我們用中職棒球來當例子，你看每個職業棒球員他們的職業生涯其實都很短暫，所\n以他們如果要跟雇主談判、爭取權益，就要付出更多的成本，所以健全的工會真的需要主管機\n關來協力，不然若要兼顧一些本身的權益，其實是很難的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:10:44.101286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:11:09.815571+08:00","text":"可是政府跟工會之間的關係，我覺得還是要審慎思考，之前在審議法條的時候我就有提到，\n工會的人事費跟業務費用如果是中央來提供資金，恐怕會有干涉工會獨立性的疑慮，工會原先\n的自主運作可能就會被政府左右。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:11:10.115571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:11:26.687000+08:00","text":"還有，如果由政府來補助人事費，則其他工會若也要求比照\n辦理，我想就會嚴重影響我們現行的工會體制，所以這部分還是請大家多思考一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:11:26.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:11:28.129857+08:00","text":"以上，謝\n謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:11:28.429857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:11:39.572714+08:00","text":"教育部體育署，有關於剛剛陳培瑜委員、黃國昌委員特別提到把「團體」重新納入，你們的\n看法為何？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:11:39.872714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:11:51.587000+08:00","text":"還有，在這個條文上面，你們是不是可以讓它更具體、更具象化，就是把它寫得更\n清楚，這塊有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:11:51.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:04.458429+08:00","text":"當然培瑜委員有開放一個口，就是也可以從附帶決議來做一個處理，\n這一塊我們先請體育署發表一下意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:04.758429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:16.758429+08:00","text":"報告委員，第七條之二的後面，我們也同意、贊同修正為「運動員工會或運動員團體\n成立」的字眼，這個 OK……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:17.058429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:21.629857+08:00","text":"所以加上「或團體」，你們要不要先改一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:21.929857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:24.501286+08:00","text":"修正為「或運動員團體」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:24.801286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:33.658429+08:00","text":"「運動員工會或團體」，因為前面的名詞就已經是這樣，所以再把「或團體」放進來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:33.958429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:44.815571+08:00","text":"第二項的部分我們比較贊同張雅琳委員剛才的說法，是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來\n進行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:45.115571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:12:47.687000+08:00","text":"我們建議用附帶決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:12:47.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:13.987000+08:00","text":"等一下，條文上面是把團體放進去，但是我們要更具象，像剛剛國昌委員所提到的部分，是\n用附帶決議的方法來處理，我們得看看你們的附帶決議有沒有充分，不過附帶決議跟整個立法\n的意旨還是有一段距離，我個人覺得啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:14.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:15.715571+08:00","text":"請國昌委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:16.015571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:28.301286+08:00","text":"老實講，立法完了以後它所做的附帶決議在實際上面、法律上面的效力本身，恐怕是\n大家會很疑慮的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:28.601286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:24.029857+08:00","text":"至於剛剛提到有一些人事費是不是要補助這件事情，我們其實在立法上面可以尊重主管機關\n的決定，但是當我們要去落實所謂去輔導這一些工會或者是團體的時候，如果有一個法律明確\n授權的依據，讓中央主管機關去訂一個辦法的話……我剛剛講的重點是，它其實是有法律的授\n權命令在法律上面位階的效力，因為這個條次本身的增加，事實上是在授權行政機關去做，並\n沒有強迫行政機關要把那個辦法訂成什麼樣子，即它沒有具體地說那個辦法一定要訂成什麼樣\n子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:24.329857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:02.329857+08:00","text":"只是目前這一些存在的運動員工會他們會希望，就他們的承認、輔導等費用的範圍，像你\n382\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n們如果覺得他們用人的費用不妥的話，你們可以就他們實際上面營運的部分，給他們一些獎、\n補助，當我們是用獎、補助來定位的時候，那個就不是一個法定費用支出的義務，就沒有課給\n政府這樣的義務。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:02.629857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.201286+08:00","text":"但是某個程度上，換另外一個角度講，讓主管機關有這樣法律的授權當作依\n靠的時候，你們在實際業務的推廣上面，在什麼樣的情況下、什麼樣的範圍內，對於這些團體\n他們所謂的輔導，你願意透過什麼樣子的形式給它補助這件事情，如果有法規授權依據的話，\n其實我是建議主管機關可以再審慎地考慮一下，對你們來講，真的是一件比較好的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.501286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:52.358429+08:00","text":"這部分我們尊重，不過，在最後決定之前，是不是請勞動部的代表先確認一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:52.658429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:54.372714+08:00","text":"請勞動部代表。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:54.672714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:20.672714+08:00","text":"你們認為要把相關責任歸在勞動部，可是我還是要提醒，其實新竹市還有其\n他地方，說實在的，政府機關補助工會人事費用並不是這邊才出現的，在很多其他的單位裡面\n，其實也都有這樣的一個狀況，所以我還是要提醒一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:20.972714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:22.401286+08:00","text":"勞動部說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:22.701286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:43.558429+08:00","text":"其實針對工會的補助、獎勵等部分，我們中央當然有訂定相關辦法\n，但是就勞動部而言，確實是沒有針對人事費或團體費用的部分，但我們訂有相關的獎、補助\n，就是針對工會的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:43.858429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:54.144143+08:00","text":"至於其他的縣市主管機關有沒有訂定，可能他們會有其他的考量，每\n個縣市會不太一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:54.444143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:08.158429+08:00","text":"就這個條文，確實有其他委員提到，因為我們針對的工會是全部所有類型\n的工會，所以基本上，我們的標準會是一致的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許專門委員根魁","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:08.458429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:21.601286+08:00","text":"針對運動員的部分，如果教育部或體育署有另\n外考量的話，我們這邊當然都是尊重他們就這個部分的處理。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:21.901286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:31.615571+08:00","text":"所以勞動部不反對，大家都尊重，尊重的結果就是可以把它放入我們的條文當中嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:31.915571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:44.487000+08:00","text":"如果我們第二項修正為「就前項運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、獎補助、其他相\n關辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:44.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:56.787000+08:00","text":"」就是業務費、基本人事費、團體協約簽訂之獎補助等等，那\n個寫得有點拉里拉雜，但我們就是都可以幫忙。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:57.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:03.658429+08:00","text":"我們可不可以把它寫出來，讓大家可以看一下，好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:03.958429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:10.529857+08:00","text":"你們就是不要把人事費放進去就對了，「承認、輔導」然後呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:10.829857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:12.544143+08:00","text":"麻煩再講一遍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:12.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:22.844143+08:00","text":"好，「就前項運動員工會或團體之承認、輔導、獎補助、其他相關辦法，由中央主\n管機關定之。」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:23.144143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:38.001286+08:00","text":"其實就是不要有業務費用或基本人事費用，就是不要有這些，所以可以不要有業務費用跟基\n本人事費用，這是你們比較關切的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:38.301286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:21.158429+08:00","text":"不好意思，我只插一個問題，就是它為什麼要把「承認」放裡面，因為它會牽涉到未\n來有任何獎補助辦法的時候，一定要畫一個主觀範圍，那個主觀範圍就是哪些團體會落入這個\n獎補助的補助辦法的射程範圍內，所以有「承認」這兩個字，其實是給主管機關在後續處理獎\n補助的時候，當有法律當作授權依據，你們去訂那個範圍的時候，會非常地明確，也會避免未\n來產生爭議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:21.458429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:23.458429+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:23.758429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:52.615571+08:00","text":"前項已經有提到要輔導工會跟團體的成立；後項是針對成立以後這\n些運動員的工會或團體，講的是後面的輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關事項，我們希望加上「事\n383\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n項」兩個字，就是「相關事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:52.915571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:11.772714+08:00","text":"黃委員指教的是說，我們所謂的承認，是希望未來在這個辦法裡面，對工會或團體的範圍能\n夠明定，這是所有、幾乎很多的法規命令在決定適用範圍的時候，都會有一個條文來界定該辦\n法所稱的工會或是所定的工會團體包括 bla bla 多少個，那個是一般體例裡面就可以定的；還有\n，一般用「承認」這兩個字，我們剛剛查了一下教育法規跟勞動法規，都罕見，但是在立法技\n術上，我們確實也一定要有，因為我們既然要有獎補助的對象，所以我們必然就這一個範圍再\n予以明定，如果真的要的話、如果是這個意思的話，「前項運動員工會或團體之範圍」的「之\n範圍」就是類似這個意思，如果真的要講的是它的範圍、不是承認的話，應該就是修正為它的\n「範圍、輔導、獎勵、補助……」，這樣是可以的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:12.072714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:20.929857+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，「範圍」是可以不加，也\n可以定，我們在說明裡面講清楚，可不可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:21.229857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:27.229857+08:00","text":"就是那個範圍是可以不加上去，加在說明就可以了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:27.529857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:26.672714+08:00","text":"召委，我請教一下，其實本席也有提出相關的條文，就你現在講的，我不知道你現在\n爭執的點，到底是不是「承認」這兩個字是我們在法律用詞上不用的，可是我們跟幾個委員提\n出來的版本，其實某種程度上是「認定」，就是這樣一個工會或團體的認定，還是由中央主管\n機關認定，第一，它是認定，然後你要有輔導以及獎勵跟補助等相關的辦法，就實務上的經驗\n，看看有沒有、會不會有重複的運動員工會或者是有一些運動它可能項目比較廣，還是，有沒\n有可能是一些新興項目運動，像這些也都是要由主管機關來認定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:26.972714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:43.829857+08:00","text":"所以如果回歸到我們現在希\n望可以訂定得比較完整的話，若你不要用「承認」這一個詞，那是不是要用「認定」這個詞來\n去作為一個比較完整的方向？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:44.129857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:02.987000+08:00","text":"剛剛教育部的說法是，不管是承認或是認定或是什麼的，基本上他們認為在本質上他們就會\n做這樣的事情，所以在文字上面不需要特別把它凸顯，大家再看一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:03.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:04.287000+08:00","text":"請次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:04.587000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:38.587000+08:00","text":"其實是這樣子，第七條之二的第一項已經有說「為健全職業……應積極輔導相關賽\n事之運動員或團體工會成立」，而依據第一項已經成立的這些運動員工會或團體，就是第二項\n說的「前項這些工會或團體」，我們對它進行輔導、獎補助等等，所以就沒有承認的問題，換\n言之，依據第一項都已經成立了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:38.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:52.887000+08:00","text":"所以第二項就是針對這些已經成立的、已經被承認的團體\n或工會，我們進行輔導、獎助、補助，跟其他事項，這樣會比較單純。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:53.187000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:54.187000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:54.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:16.772714+08:00","text":"我覺得其他的委員就是要讓這個文字是很明確的，剛剛大家已經有一些的溝通，本\n來是要用附帶決議的方法，現在就是把大家提出的部分放入法條，讓法律的位階上面可以更明\n確化，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:17.072714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:21.929857+08:00","text":"這樣看起來也是非常地明確，OK 嗎？OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:22.229857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:36.801286+08:00","text":"我把它唸一次：「第七條之二 為\n健全職業與業餘運動業之發展，中央主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員工會或團體成立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:37.101286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:47.387000+08:00","text":"前項運動員工會或團體之輔導、獎勵、補助及其他相關事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:47.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:49.972714+08:00","text":"」文字上有沒有問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:50.272714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:56.558429+08:00","text":"好，我們就修正後通過，很好，那我們附帶決議也不用了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:56.858429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:25:02.001286+08:00","text":"我們來看第七條之三，各位委員，有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:25:02.301286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:25:06.587000+08:00","text":"我們把第七條之三放進來看，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:25:06.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:25:16.315571+08:00","text":"第七\n條之三是有關於防堵的機制，當然還有包括委員提到一些所謂懲罰的條款。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:25:16.615571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:25:34.329857+08:00","text":"第七條之三，我們\n現在看一下提會討論版本，大家看一下，有意見的請舉手，張雅琳委員，林宜瑾委員，雅琳委\n384\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n員先發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:25:34.629857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:25:36.344143+08:00","text":"我想就是針對……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:25:36.644143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:25:52.644143+08:00","text":"有更正、有更正，第七條之三，以 A4 的這張為準，這是提案版本，我們先看一下，確認每\n個委員都有相關資料，跟你們的提案版本不一樣，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:25:52.944143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:26:06.087000+08:00","text":"新的請發給大家，新的，所以跟你\n們提案版本不一樣，你們又做了一些修正，我們看一下新送的版本，要我唸一下嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:26:06.387000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:26:24.958429+08:00","text":"好，我唸\n一下好了：\n「第七條之三 中央主管機關應制定並推動防治運動賭博政策，輔導職業與業餘運動團體建立防治\n運動賭博之信託基金機制及辦理法治教育。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:26:25.258429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:26:42.115571+08:00","text":"以強暴、脅迫、詐術或其他非法之方法，妨害運動競技賽事之公平者，處一年以上七年\n以下有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣一千萬元以上三千萬以下罰金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:26:42.415571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:27:00.701286+08:00","text":"犯前項之罪，因而致人於死者，處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑；致重傷者，處三年以\n上十年以下有期徒刑，各得併科新臺幣二千萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:27:01.001286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:27:14.144143+08:00","text":"三人以上共同犯第二項之罪者，處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣二千萬元\n以上五千萬元以下罰金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:27:14.444143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:27:17.872714+08:00","text":"第二項及前項之未遂犯罰之。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:27:18.172714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:27:26.458429+08:00","text":"第二項運動競技賽事範圍如下：\n一、職業運動聯盟舉辦之職業運動賽事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:27:26.758429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:27:31.329857+08:00","text":"二、特定體育團體舉辦之企業運動聯賽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:27:31.629857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:27:40.487000+08:00","text":"三、其他經中央主管機關公告之與運動產業發展有關之重要運動競技賽事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:27:40.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:28:02.501286+08:00","text":"」\n不管大家要怎麼樣討論，我還是要給予體育署肯定，終於拿出很具象的內容，就是包括了哪\n一些的賽事，說實在的，我們也是等了很久，現在終於拿到了，我們拿這個 A4 的版本來討論，\n好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:28:02.801286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:28:34.515571+08:00","text":"大家可以對照一下，之前第七條之三我們要求他們提出來但他們都沒有提出，今天終\n於提出來了，這三大項裡面大家可以看得出來，包括職業運動；特定體育團體舉辦之企業運動\n聯賽；還有其他經中央機關主管公告之與運動產業相關發展有關的，起碼很具象地提出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2024-12-04T13:28:34.815571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:28:45.387000+08:00","text":"把第二款的「企業運動聯賽」修正為「企業聯賽」，因為另外跟節稅有關的稱法是\n叫做「企業聯賽」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:28:45.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:28:49.972714+08:00","text":"好，把「企業運動聯賽」修正為「企業聯賽」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:28:50.272714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:28:51.987000+08:00","text":"請洪孟楷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:28:52.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:29:36.858429+08:00","text":"感謝召委，我看了一下，包括相關的罰鍰金額以及刑期都有加重，本席予以肯定；也\n有放入「建立防治運動賭博之信託基金機制」，這個本席給予肯定，但在我的版本第七條之二\n裡面有再提到一項，就是「擁有運動團隊經營權之法人、團體及其代表人……主動配合檢察及\n司法警察機關調查……有隱匿或抗拒，經查證屬實者，處……罰鍰」，但教育部體育署的版本\n裡面沒有把它放入，我們是不是討論一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:29:37.158429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:22.587000+08:00","text":"我是覺得，這個從過去到現在的樣態裡面都還是會\n有，當然可能難度會越來越高，可是過去畢竟是有詐騙集團直接去經營球團，這樣子的痛我們\n不能再發生，所以我還是希望能夠針對經營者的部分加以規範，當然我相信 99%都是善良經營\n385\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n者，但是如果真的有檢調要進入調查的話，相關的法人、團體、代表人應該都要主動配合辦理\n，同時也要有相關的刑責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:22.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:24.029857+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:24.329857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:27.758429+08:00","text":"好，這是有關於經營者的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:28.058429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:30:32.344143+08:00","text":"請林德福委員，再過來是張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:30:32.644143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:00.358429+08:00","text":"謝謝，這次運動產業發展條例的修法，是因為我們過去發生很多職業籃球員甚至有涉\n及打假球、地下簽賭等等這些不法的案件，造成民眾對我國運動賽事信任度大幅度地下滑，也\n再度重創我國運動產業發展與運動競技環境公平的風氣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:00.658429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:20.372714+08:00","text":"目前運動彩券發行條例有防堵重罰的\n條款，但是僅限於投注標的，非投注標的的職業運動並不受其範圍限制，如果發生簽賭、放水\n，將面臨是否可以適用這個處罰的疑慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:20.672714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:38.958429+08:00","text":"本席認為，現行運動產業發展條例需要加以修改，以維護運動賽事競技的公平性，保護運動\n產業善良的發展，避免地下簽賭來影響整個職業、業餘運動的發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:39.258429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:31:55.544143+08:00","text":"本席所提的版本條文次號\n與其他版本不同，但是本席不會堅持用自己的版本，只要修法能夠防範地下簽賭，讓運動產業\n更好，本席都會支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:31:55.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:17.844143+08:00","text":"此外，職棒工會、籃球工會所提的一些修法建議，本席也認為教育部、法務部要把這些意見\n聽進去，比如說明文訂定政府應制定職業運動賭博防堵的政策，並向學校端來深化相關的法治\n教育。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:18.144143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:52.144143+08:00","text":"針對目前整個運彩條例沒有辦法覆蓋之國內熱門賽事，如運彩未開盤之少數職棒的賽事\n、籃球聯賽、企業足賽，還有企業排球以至於學生賽事等等，都比照運彩條例來設計提高相關\n的罰則，以嚇阻這些意圖操縱賽事不肖的份子，希望運動產業發展條例能夠順利修法，以健全\n國內產業的發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:52.444143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:32:53.587000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:32:53.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:05.029857+08:00","text":"謝謝林德福委員，他不堅持，但是他充分地表達對於所謂防堵機制上面要嚴格的加以防堵，\n了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:05.329857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:12.472714+08:00","text":"接下來是陳培瑜委員，然後張雅琳委員，然後林宜瑾委員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:12.772714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:13.915571+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:14.215571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:33:59.072714+08:00","text":"第七條之三的第 2行，本來是「輔導職業與業餘運動團體」，我要修正為\n「……運動員團體」，因為現在的基金是工會在管理，不是聯盟，可是按照現在的寫法，其實\n是聯盟在管理，所以要把「業餘運動團體」改成「業餘運動員團體」，這個請注意；再來，第\n二項「以強暴、脅迫、詐術」，後面要加上一個「、利誘」，周思齊現在在看直播，他有交代\n我們，利誘是一個很常用的手段，所以在入法的時候，希望可以把利誘放上去，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:33:59.372714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:08.801286+08:00","text":"那可能還要再加一下了，順著培瑜委員的話，就是修正為「業餘運動員團體」，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:09.101286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:30.815571+08:00","text":"第\n2 行修正為「……輔導職業與業餘運動員團體建立防治運動……」這樣跟前面才會互相的呼應，\n然後接著修正為「以強迫、脅迫、詐術、利誘或其他非法之方法」，畢竟運動員最清楚他們所\n承受的辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:31.115571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:32.544143+08:00","text":"請雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:32.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:44.272714+08:00","text":"其實我也是延續一樣的看法，因為我自己這樣一路看這些情況，包括他們還有招待喝\n花酒、請客嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:44.572714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:52.572714+08:00","text":"但這東西它現在好像、似乎沒有辦法列在這個裡面，所以我……非法！非法！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:52.872714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:34:57.158429+08:00","text":"386\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:34:57.458429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:00.601286+08:00","text":"可是如果是請他去吃飯呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:00.901286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:10.901286+08:00","text":"那時候周思齊的案例，不是給他錢嗎，總之，我也是認同\n，就是應該要加入利誘這個事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:11.201286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:20.344143+08:00","text":"只是如果我們把「利誘」修進去的話，我們的運彩條例是不是也要同步一起來修？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:20.644143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:22.358429+08:00","text":"這\n是一個提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:22.658429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:39.515571+08:00","text":"最後一個，就是「第二項運動競技賽事範圍如下：」的部分，第二款的「特定體育團體舉辦\n之企業聯賽」，我想問的是，要特地寫「聯賽」是因為不能寫「賽事」嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:39.815571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:45.529857+08:00","text":"因為其他都是寫「\n賽事」，為什麼這裡要特別寫「聯賽」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:45.829857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:51.829857+08:00","text":"好，等一下請法制處說明聯賽、賽事這幾個用詞、用語。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:52.129857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:55.272714+08:00","text":"再過來請林宜瑾委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:55.572714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:35:56.715571+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:35:57.015571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:32.444143+08:00","text":"我想今天討論第七條之三，特別在 12 強棒球賽臺灣拿到冠軍之後，有所\n謂的網紅在高談闊論說他以前在做「球版」的工作，讓全臺灣人民很憤怒，特別是我這種老球\n迷，所以第七條之三的防堵機制，相對更為重要，我想全國人民很關注，特別是職棒球員工會\n也有特別發聲，希望運動賽事的防堵機制可以更健全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:32.744143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:36:56.744143+08:00","text":"所以上次我們討論的重點，就是在所謂\n職業運動跟業餘的運動賽事的射程範圍，因為運動賽事有大大小小，有職業、半職業、業餘、\n企業聯賽、學生運動聯賽等等，所以要將哪些賽事列入，請體育署務必要列清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:36:57.044143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:07.329857+08:00","text":"我想今天寫\n的條文很多都是概括性的文字，到底包括哪個賽事，到時候可能要羅列清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:07.629857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:30.772714+08:00","text":"包括罰則的部分\n，我想要有威懾性，這個很重要，因為這樣才有防堵的力量，可是我想今天要訂這個法，處罰\n還是要符合比例原則，這部分等一下再請法務部做個說明，我們希望參照法務部的意見。以上\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:31.072714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:37:39.929857+08:00","text":"第七條之三，針對第二項的強暴、脅迫、詐術，我也贊成加上利誘這樣一個手段。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:37:40.229857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:17.372714+08:00","text":"但\n是我要另外請教的是我們主管機關或者是法務部的代表，針對這種刑事犯罪行為，在立法體例\n上面，如果是意圖營利的話，通常會有加重其刑的規定，這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨黨團我們一\n開始在針對這種非法行為態樣的時候，我們寫得很細，包括三人以上刑度要拉高這件事情，也\n是我們當初所提出來的立法設計。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:38:17.672714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:38:46.244143+08:00","text":"三人以上去做這個事情，基本上要處理這種組織性的犯罪型\n態，但是你如果把它定義成犯罪組織，現在組織犯罪防制條例某個程度上面，其認定的標準已\n經嚴格到快要沒有辦法適用，所以我們才用三人以上的立法體例，當初我們的設計是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:38:46.544143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:25.687000+08:00","text":"但\n是你們今天所提出來的建議條文，把意圖營利要加重其刑的部分給刪了，我不知道實際上面的\n考慮是什麼，因為在刑事處罰當中，當你是意圖營利去做這樣子的事情的時候，那個刑事的可\n責性絕對是更高的，我覺得意圖營利去做這些事情的時候，它的惡性更為重大，在相應的刑事\n處罰上，給他加重其刑，我們認為是符合比例原則的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:25.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:44.272714+08:00","text":"只是我看到今天主管機關所提出來的條\n文，把意圖營利加重其刑的部分刪除掉，實際上面的考慮到底是什麼，可能等一下也要麻煩我\n們主管機關回應一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:44.572714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:39:45.715571+08:00","text":"還有沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:39:46.015571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:40:21.158429+08:00","text":"有關於剛剛所有委員所提出來的，包括洪孟楷委員他的條文裡面提到有關經營者\n387\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n這個層面，還有黃國昌委員特別提到意圖營利的部分，還有委員提到賽事跟聯賽的用詞、用語\n的層面，還有剛剛林宜瑾委員提到的這些相關部分，是不是請你們一併來做說明，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:40:21.458429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:16.029857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到的，我們這一次的修法，希望能夠建構一個安全友善的競技環境，\n來維護並讓運動員可以安心地從事職業運動等等的生涯發展，原來關係文書所列的多數版本，\n刑度都列在五年以下，後來我們再仔細思考了以後，今天修正的是運動產業發展條例，是所有\n運動產業的基本法，而運動彩券發行條例中，運動彩券業只是運動產業裡面的一支的特別法，\n它被拉出來，而且是立法立在前面，反觀我們今天把這個基本法訂出來以後，宣示一個剛剛各\n位委員跨黨派都支持的，就是要建構友善安全的運動競技環境，所以我們的賽事有可能是納入\n標的的賽事，也可能是不納入標的的賽事，但仍是對於運動產業發展、是全國各界關注的重要\n賽事，所以這樣一個重要賽事，如果被用強暴、脅迫、詐術或利誘的方法（「利誘」待會可能\n還可以請法務部來表示意見），也就是以上述這些極惡劣的方法來干預，甚至會影響到球員人\n身安全的這種類型，基本上就拉高他的刑度到一年以上七年以下，這跟原來所提到的六個月以\n上五年以下，或是一年以上五年以下有期徒刑，已經拉高了很多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:16.329857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:42:37.187000+08:00","text":"至於本來有區分意圖營利跟\n不意圖營利，我們現在把這樣的刑度拉高了以後，未來由司法機關裁判的時候，如果他有意圖\n營利的，也搭配後面的併科罰金，他的裁量空間會比較大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:42:37.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:04.058429+08:00","text":"因為這次的修法比較急迫，我們希\n望運動產業發展條例條文的構成要件，跟現在運彩條例行之多年的構成要件，儘量讓它一致，\n它干擾的類型是一樣的，立法技術上就會比較成熟、完整，所以我們採用的就不再做那個細部\n的區分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:04.358429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:11.787000+08:00","text":"另外，關於剛剛所提到利誘的部分，是不是可以請法務部來指教？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:12.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:20.372714+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛提到意圖營利的條件是跟運彩條例規定的體例是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:20.672714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:23.244143+08:00","text":"我們先請法務部說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:23.544143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:43:28.401286+08:00","text":"汪參事南均：主席、各位委員，還有次長、署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:43:28.701286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:07.558429+08:00","text":"有關利誘是不是要放進這個構成要件裡面，我們\n剛剛有查過過去相關的體例，刑法裡面是沒有將利誘這個用語當成構成要件，但是陸海空軍刑\n法第四十六條有，大概就是有這一個條文，然後其他的大概就不是用刑罰的處罰，只有陸海空\n軍刑法第四十六條刑罰的構成要件有放「利誘」，這樣「利誘」是不是可以放在其他非法之方\n法來看？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:07.858429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:21.572714+08:00","text":"如果把它放在其他非法之方法來看，我們在實務解釋上應該可以來認定，它是不是跟\n強暴、脅迫、詐術相當的非法方法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:21.872714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:44:44.444143+08:00","text":"如果是利誘，就等於比如主投來利誘球員，利誘行為人就\n只有主投，受利誘的那個就不是共同正犯，但是我們從這一條看起來，如果用詐術，他們雙方\n都可以是共犯的行為，所以提出來給大家參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:44:44.744143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:00.744143+08:00","text":"另外，有關刑責的部分，因為這次有「三人以上共同犯之」跟「因而致重傷」、「致人於死」\n，我們把這三項的層次分開，這也符合過去刑法加重的體例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:01.044143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:30.472714+08:00","text":"因為刑法的加重強制性交罪，在\n第二百二十二條第一項裡面，有兩人以上共同犯的刑度是一個層次，如果是致死還有致重傷，\n在第二百二十六條就有更加重的規定，我們這次就一併參考，也有提供給體育署、教育部參考\n，所以他們都有調整了，我們也贊同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:30.772714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:45:53.915571+08:00","text":"另外還有三百零二條之一妨害自由的部分，也是有三人\n以上的犯罪是一到七年，然後因而致死就無期徒刑十年以上，因而重傷五到十二年，所以這次\n我們也有分層次，我們也認為這樣比較符合體例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:45:54.215571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:17.072714+08:00","text":"388\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n還有剛剛洪孟楷委員講到的，檢察官在進入司法調查之後，認為這些財團法人、代表人團體\n應該有主動配合調查的義務，如果有隱匿、抗拒，查證屬實有行政裁罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:17.372714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:35.372714+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我們\n看這個條文是有一點點奇怪，既然已經進入司法偵查程序，如果他不配合，檢察官有刑事訴訟\n給的強制處分權力來做後續的偵查處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:35.672714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:46:54.529857+08:00","text":"因為他隱匿抗拒，行政機關再跳出來做行政調查，這\n看起來有紊亂，就是司法偵查權跟行政調查權兩個有點紊亂在一起，我在想實務上能不能執行\n也是有點問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:46:54.829857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:05.972714+08:00","text":"因為檢察官已經在司法偵查了，看起來主體應該是要行政機關查證屬實，但他\n要怎麼查證屬實？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:06.272714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:35.987000+08:00","text":"而且是檢察官已經在做司法偵查行為，行政機關再跳出來說，你要被處罰，\n這個體例過去是沒有的，只是我們看到運彩有，這個目的性可能是要求要比較迅速、比較即時\n，但是看起來這個條文放在這裡，就是有點奇怪，所以司法院好像也有建議，就把這條刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:36.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:39.144143+08:00","text":"意圖營利這一個層面呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:39.444143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:42.872714+08:00","text":"汪參事南均：意圖營利的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:43.172714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:46.029857+08:00","text":"民眾黨特別、非常在乎的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:46.329857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:47:51.758429+08:00","text":"汪參事南均：這個我們就是尊重主管機關。OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:47:52.058429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:01.487000+08:00","text":"「利誘」這兩個字，你們說了老半天……\n汪參事南均：陸海空軍刑法是有，但是其他的沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:01.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:07.215571+08:00","text":"剛剛這樣的解釋說明，我可以接受，不堅持後面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:07.515571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:26.944143+08:00","text":"我的重點在於不要再發生過去那樣\n的樣態，你現在說刑事已經介入，檢察官已經有更強硬的手段可以要求配合的話，處不處罰、\n罰鍰的部分要多少，我們就可以再討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:27.244143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:29.244143+08:00","text":"這一點我不堅持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:29.544143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:48:40.115571+08:00","text":"不過我也有在意圖營利的部分要加\n重其刑二分之一，我也認為應該要把它給放入，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:48:40.415571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:22.987000+08:00","text":"其實你看，如果真的有意圖營利的情\n況，因為我們前面討論的是，以非法手段來影響運動競技賽事公平，可能還是會有情節的輕重\n，一個是牽扯到賭盤、賭金，另一個可能是不一定有牽扯到賭盤、賭金，也許是牽扯到譬如對\n戰組合、捉對廝殺，我可能這一場不要打得太好來選擇晉級之後的隊伍，其實在運動賽事上有\n這樣的狀況，但是這一些我們都是不鼓勵也不允許的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:49:23.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:39.858429+08:00","text":"我也認為現在我們修這一條，就是希望\n建立一個很完整的概念，我國的法令是絕對不允許有任何人用任何非法手段去介入公平的運動\n賽事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:49:40.158429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:49:51.301286+08:00","text":"如果後面的目的還是用營利，我們就加重二分之一，所以我認為加重二分之一是不是可\n以放入？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:49:51.601286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:07.315571+08:00","text":"讓更多人看到這一個條文的時候可以很明白地理解，就是你要營利、賺錢的話，不好\n意思，不要來干涉，不要把你的黑手伸入到運動賽事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:50:07.615571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:08.758429+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:50:09.058429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:31.344143+08:00","text":"剛剛這位官員所講的……不好意思，剛剛處長所講的事情，我不是聽不懂，但我要跟\n處長分享幾個事情，第一個，在我國刑事處罰的體例上，意圖營利本來就是一個提高刑度基本\n上的法定構成要件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:50:31.644143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:50:49.644143+08:00","text":"因此，特別是在這一種打假球，因為要營利而去做這件事情，在惡性上，\n如果不透過法定刑的提高，沒有辦法適度地去評價它對於法規範秩序所造成的迫害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:50:49.944143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:22.515571+08:00","text":"因為跟其\n他的脈絡相比，大家都會問一件事，為什麼在其他脈絡的時候，只要涉及到意圖營利，法定刑\n就往上了，反而在這個脈絡的時候，我們立法者的決斷竟然是不需要提高，讓法院自己依照刑\n389\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n法第五十七條各款要件，在法定裁量裡面去調整？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:22.815571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:49.672714+08:00","text":"事實上，我必須要說的事情是，如果為了要\n懲治賺那一種錢而去搞這種事情傷害運動員的人，反而在法規上面不加重其刑，而是把它回到\n所謂法院量刑裡面的評價，恐怕在整個規範的體例上跟現行整個刑事處罰的規範體例不符。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:49.972714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:51:58.544143+08:00","text":"第二個，立法者在這件事情所做成的評價，可能也會傳遞一些錯誤的訊息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:51:58.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:43.415571+08:00","text":"其實法條的構造\n並不困難，我知道你們心裡面在想的是，三人以上已經有加重了，但是我要跟大家說明的事情\n是，在這種犯罪型態之下，你要回去想，如果在訴訟上沒有辦法證明是三人以上一起幹的話，\n就要回到第一項，當你回到第一項的時候，有辦法跟沒有辦法證明意圖營利，在法定刑回到本\n來的原則上面，恐怕不是簡單的一句說「交給法官依照具體個案裁量」就可以處理的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:43.715571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:52:44.858429+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:52:45.158429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:04.015571+08:00","text":"我們提到運彩條例，基本上當時就是為了要防止賭博，這是大宗的類型，\n所以用強暴、脅迫、詐術或其他非法的方法，妨害運動競技的本身，有一點抽象危險犯的概念\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:04.315571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:22.887000+08:00","text":"也就是你做這種事情，100 件、99 件都是在賭博的，所以我就直接把你刑度拉高了，它內部\n就隱含著多數的類型就是有高度不好的內涵，所以才會定一年以上七年以下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:23.187000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:37.187000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛提到的\n是，今天新立一個法律條文，要不要創設跟運彩條例不一樣的構成要件，再多一個營利跟不營\n利的區分？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:37.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:48.629857+08:00","text":"原來的設想是，因為時間也比較急迫，所以是不是用比較成熟的運彩條例構成要件\n，都跟它一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:48.929857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:53:57.787000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛提到，原先的刑度都只有五年以下，我們現在是把它拉到七年以下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:53:58.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:08.087000+08:00","text":"委員的意見是就分，營利的就七年以下，不營利的是不是要輕一點，我們剛剛提到的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T13:54:08.387000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:54:13.529857+08:00","text":"我沒有說不營利的輕一點，你不要動喔。抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長嵩茂","start":"2024-12-04T13:54:13.829857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:13.258429+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的是，就有一點像運彩一樣，即使是運動彩券，多了一個妨礙運動\n彩券發行的秩序，其實營利跟不營利的並不區分，所以我剛特別提到，已經有一個一年以上七\n年以下的級距，這本來就是看你犯罪的型態、手段惡不惡劣、人數多不多、危害跟企圖、動機\n影不影響等等，所以我必須這樣講，我們要在很快時間內擬出一個大家有共識而且執行比較無\n礙的條文，所以我們的建議是，因為我們提列出來的是非投注標的的賽事，但它的重要性在運\n動產業發展上跟投注標的類似，所以是用相同構成要件的概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:55:13.558429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:55:18.987000+08:00","text":"我先說一下，等一下休息 5分鐘，大家再做個討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:55:19.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:11.858429+08:00","text":"其實剛剛法務部和處長的說法我都尊重\n，而包括黃國昌委員、洪孟楷委員，大家對於所謂的賭都是深惡痛絕，而或許在所謂的運彩部\n分並沒有特別提出這個部分，現在我們把意圖營利納入，只是希望在修這個法的時候，能更凸\n顯地展現出我們的實質態度，如果在體例上沒有太過違反，我個人認為，不是運彩如何我們這\n邊就要配合，說不定把「意圖營利」放進去之後，下次運彩條例修法時，也會配合這樣的作法\n，然後讓這部分更凸顯出來，這是我們的看法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:12.158429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:14.729857+08:00","text":"我們是不是休息 5 分鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:15.029857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:17.601286+08:00","text":"大家做個溝通，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:17.901286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:23.901286+08:00","text":"5 分鐘之後，再來做最後決議，我們先溝通\n一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:24.201286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:25.344143+08:00","text":"現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:25.644143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:56:28.501286+08:00","text":"休息（14時 53 分）\n繼續開會（15時 12分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:56:28.801286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:00.229857+08:00","text":"第七條之三經過剛剛的休息協商，顯然大家還是有一些歧見，但我還是要做最後的努力，因\n390\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n為不管是第七條之一、第七條之二，都已經有一個共識，第七條之三的部分，還是希望各位委\n員今天能夠把它送出委員會，盡可能把條文擬出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:00.529857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:27.672714+08:00","text":"最後顯然就是在有關意圖營利的這個層面\n上，黃國昌委員跟洪孟楷委員都認為可以把「意圖營利」放到「三人以上」的部分，但是教育\n部法制處認為這樣的作法在刑責的衡平上會有一些疑慮，現在就針對這個部分，我們再做最後\n的溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:27.972714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:36.544143+08:00","text":"召委，其實在剛剛的溝通過程中，我覺得法務部應該已經可以接受，尊重嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:36.844143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:57:50.558429+08:00","text":"而教育\n部法制處也認為只要立法說明清楚，應該可以接受第四項修正為「意圖營利或三人以上共同犯\n第二項之罪者」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:57:50.858429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:10.287000+08:00","text":"我們要再次強調，這次的修法就是要用實際行動告訴任何想要營利而想把手\n伸進運動賽事的人，我們都一概拒絕，所以當然要以加重處分來嚇阻這樣的犯行，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:58:10.587000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:58:11.729857+08:00","text":"以\n上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2024-12-04T13:58:12.029857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:17.172714+08:00","text":"其實這個法案已經協商、討論過一次了，而今天的精神最主要就是全部都要加重其刑\n，所以今天教育部提出來的提會版本，重點在於強暴、脅迫、詐術或其他非法之方法，都要加\n重處罰，不管是刑度還是罰金；今天提會版本的刑度是一上七下，已經比上次我們在這裡討論\n時加重了，原先民眾黨黨團提案版本並沒有加重，就是一般刑度，強迫、威脅、詐術是六個月\n以上五年以下有期徒刑，如果意圖營利要加重其刑二分之一的話，加完就是九個月以上七點五\n年以下，其實比我們現在光是講強暴、脅迫、詐術等還沒有加重的部分，刑度就還要低了，現\n在突然提出來意圖營利要加重，這跟上次的版本差很多，本來是六個月以上而已，所以我還是\n希望今天這個提會版本可以先出去，因為這個已經討論過，今天不是第一次討論，大家對刑度\n加重是有高度共識的，而今天的提會版本也已經加重了，請大家看一下，各委員原先的版本都\n沒有到一上七下這麼高，罰金部分也都已經加重，得併科一千萬元以上三千萬元以下罰金，都\n已經符合我們上次討論時加重的要求，所以我覺得剛剛這「意圖營利」是不是要進來加重可以\n討論，但離上次的版本真的差太多了，原先的刑度最低是六個月以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:17.472714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:35.472714+08:00","text":"我說明一下，第一項在不涉及意圖營利的情況下把法定刑定為一上七下，我們敬表同\n意，我一點意見都沒有，但為什麼我們剛剛一直在處理意圖營利的事？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:35.772714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:00:53.772714+08:00","text":"在刑事法律的世界裡，\n當意圖營利而去做一些事情的時候，它的法定刑本來就會拉高，所以拿不同版本的出發點來比\n，事實上並不是討論這個問題的本質。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:00:54.072714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:18.929857+08:00","text":"問題的本質是我們的出發點是，在第一項這種行為態樣\n下、基本款的行為態樣下，一上七下大家都認同，這個沒有問題，現在思考的層次是，在這個\n基本款上，如果因為意圖營利而做這件事情，是不是應該要加重處罰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:19.229857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:01:57.801286+08:00","text":"我理解教育部可能有一\n些考慮和看法，所以剛剛在沒有開麥克風討論的時候，我才說如果意圖營利按照一般狀況全部\n一次加重二分之一，你們覺得太重的話，那起碼在後面的加重行為態樣上，請大家看後面有一\n種行為態樣，就是「三人以上共同犯第二項之罪者，處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑」，為什麼\n三人以上犯，我們要加重處罰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:01:58.101286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:02:51.529857+08:00","text":"因為我們認為三人以上犯，對於法益侵害、威脅程度跟可責性\n程度會比較高，但是如果今天我是因為意圖營利來處理，即使沒有三人以上犯，以目前社會上\n391\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄\n也好、球員也好對這種事情深惡痛絕的程度，直接把它放在「意圖營利或三人以上共同犯第二\n項之罪，處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑」，基本上我們認為這樣的話，其他我們要考慮的規範\n通通可以涵蓋在這裡面，而不是說意圖營利部分，按照一般體例全部加重二分之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-04T14:02:51.829857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:03:00.687000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們\n的討論，希望大家彼此之間能有共識的方向，其建置基礎是在這裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:03:00.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:03:03.558429+08:00","text":"好，還有沒有其他意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:03:03.858429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:03:05.572714+08:00","text":"請張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-12-04T14:03:05.872714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:03:59.015571+08:00","text":"我想確認一件事情，就是我們最主要是希望用加重刑罰，來達到宣示我們要打擊賭博\n、打擊犯罪的目的，而基本上這次修法很多都已經提高刑罰，但是我想再確認一下，今年我們\n修兒少性剝削的相關性影像時，我記得好像也有針對意圖營利、散播的部分，討論是不是要罰\n得更高、更重，但後來法務部跟司法院的意見都考量到衡平性問題，所以我們今天在考慮這件\n事情的修法上，除了要建立打擊犯罪的形象外，是不是也要回歸到法律實務面的衡平性問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2024-12-04T14:03:59.315571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:04:58.744143+08:00","text":"我還是再次強調，加重處罰、加重刑度、加重罰金，這些我們通通都支持、認同，而\n意圖營利我們當然也深惡痛絕，因為這個最後造成的都是對選手的傷害，所以如果要把它加進\n來跟三人以上共犯一起加重處罰，我覺得可以討論，但我還是要強調，今天提會版本的罰則已\n經比民眾黨黨團第一次的版本在加重處罰上都還要高了，所以我是希望下一次你們在提案的時\n候，一開始就要先加重，不要已經協商到最後一刻才提出一個之前都沒有討論過的版本，這樣\n會花大家很多時間，我是希望可以這樣，大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:04:59.044143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:00.758429+08:00","text":"最後，請鄭署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:01.058429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:02.058429+08:00","text":"好，同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:02.358429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:05:35.787000+08:00","text":"我們尊重剛剛張雅琳委員特別提到有關兒童性剝削曾在這個議題上的討論，特別提到衡平性\n的問題，我剛剛也特別提到衡平的問題；另外，吳沛憶委員認為大家對於這些意圖犯罪部分是\n深惡痛絕，這是三黨都有的共識，但還是希望在提出討論的時候，有關罰則的落差上可以更加\n吻合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:05:36.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:25.229857+08:00","text":"我們現在就從整個條文來看，我只念紅字的部分，「輔導職業與業餘運動員團體」，這個部\n分沒有問題；然後根據球員工會的意見，他們特別希望把「利誘」放進去，法務部也認為這樣\n的用詞沒有問題；特別是我們剛剛討論非常久有關意圖營利的部分，這一次教文委員會不斷地\n凸顯對於所謂意圖營利對球員造成的危害，我們希望在態度上能特別呈現出來，所以意圖營利\n或三人以上共犯的這個部分，就符合下面的罰則，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:25.529857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:28.958429+08:00","text":"OK，好，那這一塊就是……還有啊\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:29.258429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:32.401286+08:00","text":"我剛剛有提一個附帶決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:32.701286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:06:36.987000+08:00","text":"好，我們處理陳培瑜委員的附帶決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:06:37.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:01.001286+08:00","text":"第七條之三附帶決議\n針對運動產業發展條例第七之三條所稱之「職業聯賽」、「企業聯賽」之具體定義，以及輔導\n運動員團體建立防治運動賭博之信託基金機制之相關辦法，體育署應於三讀後六個月內完成。","quality":0},{"speaker":"提案人","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:01.301286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:03.872714+08:00","text":"陳培瑜  林宜瑾  張雅琳","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:04.172714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:05.887000+08:00","text":"請陳委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:06.187000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:10.472714+08:00","text":"392\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 111期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:10.772714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:31.915571+08:00","text":"第七條之三我有提一個附帶決議，就是針對運動產業發展條例第七條之三所稱之「職\n業運動賽事」、「企業聯賽」具體定義，希望體育署在三讀後六個月內完成相關辦法跟規定，\n可不可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:32.215571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:34.501286+08:00","text":"體育署有沒有問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:34.801286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:37.944143+08:00","text":"因為你們要把它定義出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:38.244143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:07:46.815571+08:00","text":"只有改兩個字，就是「相關辦法」改成「相關規定」，因為我們只能訂定行政規則。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:07:47.115571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:01.687000+08:00","text":"可是你們給我的版本寫的是「職業運動賽事」跟「企業運動聯賽」，我們現在確定一\n下名稱，應該改成「職業運動賽事」跟「企業聯賽」。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:01.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:05.129857+08:00","text":"好，所以附帶決議是這樣囉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:05.429857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:07.144143+08:00","text":"署長，你看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:07.444143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:11.729857+08:00","text":"來，我們是不是再看一下最後的內容？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:12.029857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:22.315571+08:00","text":"正本部分我們剛剛都有簽字，剛剛陳培瑜委員的附帶\n決議，把「辦法」改成「規定」，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:22.615571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:27.758429+08:00","text":"好，你們先處理第七條之三附帶決議的文字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T14:08:28.058429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:08:38.629857+08:00","text":"另外，第七條之三就照剛剛螢幕上所看到的文字修正通過，附帶決議的正本是不是給我們？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:08:38.929857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:04.644143+08:00","text":"陳培瑜委員的附帶決議我念一下：針對運動產業發展條例第七條之三所稱之「職業運動賽事」\n、「企業聯賽」之具體定義，以及輔導運動員團體建立防治運動賭博之信託基金機制之相關規\n定，體育署應於三讀後六個月內完成。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:04.944143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:06.372714+08:00","text":"這樣 OK 吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:06.672714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:09.529857+08:00","text":"好，這個附帶決議就通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:09.829857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:20.115571+08:00","text":"因為第七條之二已經修正通過，所以原審查會保留的附帶決議我們就不予通過，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:20.415571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:23.272714+08:00","text":"這\n是第七條之二的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:23.572714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:49.001286+08:00","text":"今日會議協商結論如下：增訂第七條之二、增訂第七條之三，修正通過；通過協商新收附帶\n決議共 1 項，原審查會保留附帶決議共 1 項不予通過，這個剛剛已經特別報告過了，其餘均照\n審查會審查結果通過，檢附立法說明一份。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:49.301286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:55.301286+08:00","text":"如果大家沒有問題，就請大家簽字，完成今天的協\n商。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:55.601286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:09:58.744143+08:00","text":"感謝各位委員的參與，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-04T14:09:59.044143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T14:10:00.187000+08:00","text":"散會（15時 24 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}