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它只有國會會可以來做那產業園區就比較多元了"},{"start":125.996,"end":148.707,"text":"那科學園區在國科會的考慮點是說因為它科學園區做出來以後,也要有人願意進駐嗎?我相信很多事情都有變通的方式可以那只要我們來協商一下,不然這樣後來所以我們壓力很大,已經宣布出去了,大家都在期待之中"},{"start":149.887,"end":174.309,"text":"好不好我們不要講困難我們要講如何解決困難的問題因為我們當初我們在整個桃竹苗大西湖計畫並沒有指明這塊地只有在這個區嘛你再講一下我就聽不太清楚我們當時抱怨的桃竹苗大西湖計畫是有說到要在這裡做在這個區做但是並沒有講是這塊地或是哪一塊地也沒講時間點"},{"start":176.05,"end":197.541,"text":"那所以國客會的想法就是說他的地要一塊一塊的有人買他租他才會慢慢的租出去他要確定有那他才會考慮來做那第二個他們過去他們現在的做法因為他們都會因為這個要經過都更會很久尤其那裡是農業保護地那他們大部分都會找現成的地來進行"},{"start":200.402,"end":207.545,"text":"所以這是我們第一次協調的結果沒關係啦,我們再來想想看我們再來想想看,我們選一天,好我就討論好我就解決這個問題,這樣好不好?好,我拜託再來,我要跟你請教因為關於232條款,晶片跟我們的電子產業的一個計畫那現在關稅調到100%"},{"start":230.479,"end":252.459,"text":"原則上現在我要問行政院到底知道川普的要求是什麼行政院說這個企業的投資不清楚不清楚說你們去問那個投資的公司台積電他最清楚你剛好是台積電的董事我第一個問題要跟你請教"},{"start":254.221,"end":273.015,"text":"台積電已經在美國投資1650億美金現在川普在說的是再追加3000億美金還是追加2000億美金這是追加還是包含了1650億說得清楚我們可以了解台積電的問題對美國導致所引起的一個對台灣的影響"},{"start":278.927,"end":302.995,"text":"這個部分台積電已經回應了台積電已經回應了嘛他的回應就代表公司的回應嘛你也知道當初台積電是沒有回應的董事是不會去不能亂講嘛要靠發言人來講嘛那發言人他們的發言回來我想他們之前已經很清楚表達就是用到目前為止"},{"start":304.215,"end":325.231,"text":"你是怎麼樣,你台積電的董事是台灣的代表在那邊,連你都不懂,你們在說我們要怎麼相信?我懂的就是1650億嗎?多少?就1650億公告的數字你意思,我是立法委,我不是經濟部長,經濟部長說這個市場要給你修理,到底是多少錢要投資多少?到現在還不懂,你們如何去談判?"},{"start":333.029,"end":355.305,"text":"阿你是國安會主委捏你是台灣最重要經濟的一個操盤手捏阿你不知道我看齁整個台灣政府都很...委員我知道就是一千六百五十億阿這個是...這是的確...好啦好啦你做官啊怎麼這麼說所以我永遠不相信這個政府這是經過董事會...連這樣就不敢說出來到...經過董事會也是經過公司公告的嘛我這個我這個說嘛給台灣人會不會知道嘛"},{"start":359.883,"end":374.45,"text":"那這是的確啦 目前我知道只有到這啦因為因為因為是講出來怕傷到臺灣的心還是怎麼樣這個實在是誠意很大這個沒有好什麼隱瞞的這沒什麼好隱瞞的我真的覺得沒有好隱瞞的"},{"start":376.491,"end":396.615,"text":"這裡面現在又有一個說出來台積電要跟英特爾要結合在一起那你當初回答我一句話柴油跟汽油不能合併但是可能會提示這種要求英特爾占51%台積電占49%這個情形你也不知道再上一次你國化會主委不知道這個政府就亂套了"},{"start":404.4,"end":420.195,"text":"委員是這樣我們在上一次的時候呢很早就傳出來那時候傳出來呢事實上是一些投資界的人傳的聲音那這個台積電也有去查證那所以這個部分我們並沒有被討論過了"},{"start":422.616,"end":449.646,"text":"現在有出來在這個方針再出來喔但是我們不能因為媒體的任何風聲都希望你們給我氣魄給我擔當而已問完你們都不知道我不知道國安會關稅的談判根本是太重要太重要影響各種企業跟我們經濟政策的做什麼都要你們都說不知道我這個政府是當時我才不知道你們在談什麼你們在談變什麼所以是由我們副院長在討論啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊"},{"start":451.867,"end":477.35,"text":"不是,這是因為很重要的事情我相信說你有兩年人蓋過問題簾,這樣你都不知道,疑問三不足這政府要怎麼叫他們取信於民現在時間已經是坦白關鍵的時刻了我跟你報告的是事實事實你說我不知道,我也沒辦法真的啦,這真的是事實啦沒有,這個事情是媒體等的包括你有"},{"start":478.843,"end":503.732,"text":"至少在我們沒有討論過啦好啦好啦我相信你啦我希望沒有啦再來今天你回答了一個問題那現在232的條款裡面你說台灣的競爭力很強不用擔心我們232條款100%不用擔心台灣很安全你要學習"},{"start":506.244,"end":513.335,"text":"其實大家最環繞的就是232條款電子產品我們的晶片"},{"start":514.867,"end":536.225,"text":"量子件那一些你如果說不用煩惱我現在想起來所有都說對等關稅還不是最重要台灣的主要產業是在232條款裡面你說不重要我不曉得你信心從哪裡來委員我是針對晶片的部分針對晶片的部分回答啦"},{"start":537.216,"end":543.4,"text":"那晶片的部分的確我們最主要的晶片廠商的確他在美國有設廠第二個不是我們100%是全球都100%"},{"start":567.316,"end":592.658,"text":"你相信川普的野心那些嗎?川普的野心是要全部掌控那個晶片的美國要做老大他能指揮一切只有戰略方式他就能滿足 我覺得我怎麼演什麼幻想我都不曉得我講的是說到2029年這三個場因為當時大家你應該就了解2029年川普卸任了沒有都有評估過這三個場"},{"start":593.539,"end":597.5,"text":"針對當時大家在評估的時候我想各個業界都有評估過了那個量真的沒有很大我們只是想告訴大家台積電主要投資都在台灣"},{"start":613.864,"end":628.155,"text":"我剛才跟你說主要的投資在台灣他的資料現在這幾個廠蓋完了他不蓋因為台灣的電力不夠他不敢蓋我們要承認一些事實這是他們內部的消息給我們的"},{"start":629.372,"end":648.437,"text":"所以說要往外蓋啊往外蓋美國的所有投資4600億對台灣有沒有幫忙委員我們都有跟台積電定期在會議對於所有的新廠需要的電力有些話你們不敢講包括道路我們都有在每個月都有在談他也已經了解台灣的電力不夠你們要相信這一點不要對台灣人只講好聽的話"},{"start":657.659,"end":685.771,"text":"我不會這樣喔,這的確我們在開會裡面我們對每一個廠的需求我們都在滿足啦所以到目前為止,台積電的計畫並沒有改變我是不怎麼樂觀,你們現在都說得好聽一點好,再來一個問題,你是台積電的董事二耐米台積電洩漏到日本去,只有一天的新聞星期三,今天星期四,所有新聞都沒有在"},{"start":687.157,"end":703.159,"text":"這很夭壽我看起來他是從台積電離開到日本公司上任叫做一家叫做TL他是半導體商設備第三名他來切起這個機制到日本"},{"start":704.663,"end":718.773,"text":"那個晶片的團隊叫做REPITAS他是國家隊喔日本的國家隊做到那一邊說7月18號2奈米他們已經試做成功啊"},{"start":719.754,"end":744.4,"text":"你們每天在說台灣的肥大很多現在日本的間諜也不少我看台灣已經千山百棟載人去了我很奇怪如果是你台積電的董事你應該關心台積電這個事情怎麼今天連報紙的新聞都沒有還是日本人很會做公共的關係還是台灣政府開始在引入他這一塊"},{"start":746.363,"end":767.776,"text":"你告訴我 2奈米已經被拖出去 台灣政府都沒有出聲是因為日本到日本不敢出聲還是怎麼樣委員我先跟你報告他當時成立的時候是購買 就是選用IBM2奈米技術"},{"start":768.963,"end":792.733,"text":"那是IBM的兩奈米技術是賣給它的那第二個它的製程跟我們的製程是不一樣的我們是一個產品頭片可能就是一萬片五千片它其實廠產能只有五千片我們大部分都是五萬片以上那它為什麼只有五千片它是走客製化它可以每一片都不一樣是採用HIT-Touch之前的技術"},{"start":793.453,"end":813.158,"text":"你說日本團隊是怎樣因為我跟這些人也算熟悉你怎麼很相信日本人講的話每一片不一樣除了做軍用他不會想擴展他的聲譽為什麼他要來拖起我們的二耐民你們都說好聽話"},{"start":815.331,"end":827.234,"text":"除了一天在罵對岸的 連日本這樣情形 連屁都不敢晃連講一聲中話都沒有 新聞整個封鎖起來我覺得我們這國家永遠就是三重的標準在我說日本美國會很恐怖捏 他要你什麼就是絕對要你捏"},{"start":838.017,"end":853.923,"text":"這個我有要求台積電要做進行檢討然後這個來做一定的管控那目前他的偵測技術至少這個是他主動偵測出來那台積電這個部分還是很強的二賴米被拿過去"},{"start":855.043,"end":873.383,"text":"你台灣的競爭地位日本也是很會很強的我們的燃料要很多從那邊來的設備從那邊來的他慢慢走轉的話就載你台灣您就很樂觀的看法這個生意是誰該送你競爭的呢有一個很難的您不要以為他們就對你好"},{"start":874.927,"end":886.276,"text":"有一個很難的是它做出2奈米它的良率能不能穩定在最高的良率那個是我其實我跟你說ASML的荷蘭那一家公司還沒有美國通用公司還有那個TEL三家半導體設備的廠商他們不會改進啊"},{"start":899.212,"end":924.044,"text":"其實有人看到就知道歐美甲在想什麼我跟你講做設備的他一定會了解我怎樣去改進到最好這些資料過去了你們還在替他掩護我不知道我們的心態是什麼啊覺得政府很奇怪連鄂賴銘的技術外卸是去了你們只有看鮑達福的設備那一關難過你們每次拿它都沒關係"},{"start":930.353,"end":946.844,"text":"你們都沒有緊張的心理我們國科會都很認真的來參與調查不夠認真啦我看今天的報紙都沒有寫我這很莫名其妙要是中國大陸大概要炒上一個月啊現在那在執政黨的都不敢講話我沒有看到一個人問真的真的"},{"start":957.905,"end":971.523,"text":"奇怪 你等一下問啦你在我後面啦 邱志偉你問一下為什麼鄂耐敏的機師已經外流到日本了台灣都沒有發生只有一天的新聞第二天的新聞全部紅手"},{"start":972.284,"end":989.98,"text":"奇怪不奇怪委員你可以這樣看一個投手至少要五種三種以上的球路他看了一種拿書看就可以投職棒嗎其實沒有那麼簡單不是書看了就會而且他只看到一部分因為台積電是切割很多段這是事實台積電的保護就是這樣做的"},{"start":997.355,"end":1002.256,"text":"因為這樣你們又替人家講話你為什麼說他的製程他不一定會學會日本比台灣人還笨嗎你們敗為偶像的國家呢怎麼會比我們笨所以你們這個就是這樣阿拜台灣其實給你們這台都沒贏謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時54分）主席，首先邀請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委早。身體有沒有比較好？有沒有壓力很大？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，謝謝，我上禮拜管子拔掉了！"],["陳委員超明：我第一項要跟你拜託，拜託很久了，一直沒時間跟你見面，就是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，我們苗栗縣是十分積極，目前苗栗縣政府的用地評估已接近尾聲，現在就是要跟中央機關尋求協助，但是當初是你們提送的，行政院核定，目前苗栗縣政府有三塊的產業用地，後龍的產業園區沒有問題，它的主管機關就是經濟部。頭份交流道在頭份科學園區裡面，它是經過都市計畫變更，應該也沒有問題，現在比較大的問題就是在竹南科第二期的科學園區裡面，那是非都市計畫，這裡面我們一直跟國科會聯絡，但它不願意來當主管機關，我在這裡要特別請劉主委再幫我們協調一次，看是國科會要認還是你國發會要認，還是由苗栗縣政府來認、來擔任開發的主管機關，不然現在停滯在那邊，到底要怎樣來決定這些？而且這些計畫對苗栗縣的繁榮發展跟進步是非常非常重要的關鍵，我特別跟你拜託，請你再出面一次，看是否能說成。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實我出面過一次，我再想想看，因為這個……"],["陳委員超明：你都想很久，我想說你當時……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為科學園區只有國科會可以來做，產業園區就比較多元了，有關科學園區，國科會的考慮點是說，因為科學園區做出來以後也要有人願意進駐……"],["陳委員超明：我相信很多事情都可以有變通的方式，只要我們來協商一下，不然這樣耗下去我們的壓力很大，已經宣布出去了，大家都在期待之中，好不好？我們不要講困難，我們要講如何解決困難的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為當初我們在整個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫並沒有指名這塊地，只有在這個區。"],["陳委員超明：你再說一下，我聽不太清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們當時報院的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫是有提到要在這裡做、在這個區域做，但是並沒有講是這塊地或是哪一塊地，也沒講時間點，所以國科會的想法就是它的地要一塊一塊有人買，它才會租出去，它要確定有才會考慮來做。第二個，他們現在的作法，他們大部分都會找現成的地來進行，因為這個要經過都更會很久，尤其那裡是農業保護地，這是我們第一次協調的結果。"],["陳委員超明：我怎麼越聽越小聲？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒關係啦，我們再來想看看。"],["陳委員超明：我們再來想看看，我們選一天好好來討論、好好來解決這個問題，這樣好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：我拜託一下。再來，我要跟你請教，關於232條款、晶片跟我們的電子產業計畫，原則上關稅調到100%，現在我問行政院到底知不知道川普的要求是什麼？行政院說，這是企業的投資不清楚，要去問投資的公司──台積電最清楚，你剛好是台積電的董事，我第一個問題要跟你請教，台積電已經在美國投資1,650億美金，現在川普說的是再追加3,000億美金，還是追加2,000億美金？這是追加還是包含1,650億？要講清楚，我們才會了解台積電在美國投資所引發對臺灣的影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分台積電已經回應了。"],["陳委員超明：你做董事應該要了解，說話要實在一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電已經回應了嘛！它的回應就代表公司的回應，你也知道董事是……"],["陳委員超明：台積電沒有回應。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：董事不會、也不能亂講，要靠發言人來講，至於發言人的發言，我想他們之前已經很清楚表達，就是他們到目前為止是1,650億。"],["陳委員超明：你們不能說到底是怎麼樣，台積電的董事是臺灣的代表，連你都不知道，那你們說的我們要怎麼相信？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我知道的就是1,650億。"],["陳委員超明：多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就是1,650億，公告的數字。"],["陳委員超明：我是立法委員，我不是經濟部長。經濟部長說這個事情被人家修理，到底要投資多少錢？到現在還不知道！你是國發會主委，你是臺灣最重要的一個經濟操盤手，連你不知道，我看整個臺灣政府都很……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我知道的就是1,650億啊！這個是的確……"],["陳委員超明：好啦！好啦！你當官的人這樣說，所以我永遠不相信這個政府。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是經過董事會……"],["陳委員超明：連這樣都不敢說出來，到底有沒有氣魄和擔當？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也是經過公司公告的嘛！"],["陳委員超明：多少就說嘛！讓臺灣的人可以知道嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是的確，目前我知道只有到這，因為……"],["陳委員超明：你們是怕講出來傷到臺灣人的心，還是怎麼樣？這實在很令人存疑，這個沒有什麼好隱瞞的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這沒什麼好隱瞞的。"],["陳委員超明：我真的覺得沒有什麼好隱瞞的。現在又有一個說法出來，台積電要跟Intel結合在一起，你當初回答我一句話─柴油和汽油不能合併，但是可能會提出這種要求，Intel占51%，台積電占49%，這個情形你也不知道？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在上一次……"],["陳委員超明：你是國發會主委，你不知道的話這個政府就亂套了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有、沒有，委員，是這樣的。在上一次很早就傳出來，那時候事實上是一些投資界的人傳的聲音。台積電也有去查證，所以這個部分我們並沒有討論過。"],["陳委員超明：現在這個風聲又再出來，他們要要求。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是風聲，但是我們不能因為媒體的任何風聲就討論。"],["陳委員超明：希望你們要有氣魄、要有擔當，不能「問你們，你們都說不知道」！國發會跟關稅的談判是太重要、太重要了，影響各種企業跟我們的經濟政策走向，結果你們都說不知道？這個政府是何時才能讓我們知道你們談了什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這很重要，所以……"],["陳委員超明：你們在談判什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以是由我們副院長在帶領。"],["陳委員超明：碰到美國，你們就都軟了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是，因為這是很重要的事情，所以我們要……"],["陳委員超明：我相信你們有能力可以解決問題，結果連這樣你們都不知道？一問三不知！這個政府要怎樣取信於民？到現在已經是攤牌的關鍵時刻了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我跟你報告的是事實，但你說我不知道，我也沒辦法了！真的，這真的是事實啦！這個事情是媒體登的。"],["陳委員超明：萬一有呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少我們沒有討論過。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！我相信你，我希望沒有。","再來，今天你回答了一個問題，現在232條款裡面，你說臺灣的競爭力很強，不用擔心，對於232條款的100%，我們不用擔心，臺灣很安全！你要小心。其實大家最煩惱的就是232條款！因為包括電子產品、晶片、零組件那一些，如果你說不用煩惱，我現在想想，所有人都說對等關稅還不是最重要，臺灣的主要產業是在232條款裡面，結果你說不重要？我不曉得你的信心從哪裡來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我是針對晶片的部分，是針對晶片的部分回答。晶片的部分，我們最主要的晶片廠商的確在美國有設廠。"],["陳委員超明：好，你們都說不重要……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個，不是我們100%，而是全球都100%，所以大家都一樣。"],["陳委員超明：我知道全球都有，你在做，人家也在追。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大家都一樣。"],["陳委員超明：如果是1,650億美金，加3,000億美金，總共投資4,600億美金……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不知道這個數字怎麼來的。"],["陳委員超明：你說美國的產量才占全球的6%，你想川普的野心有那麼小嗎？川普的野心是要全部掌控晶片，美國要做老大！他要能指揮一切，只占6%，他就能滿足嗎？我覺得這個話……你怎麼換算的，我都不曉得。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我講的是到2029年這三個廠，你應該很了解，當時大家……"],["陳委員超明：2029川普卸任了沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：都有評估過這三個廠。"],["陳委員超明：你們是等著他卸任再來看情形，還是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有、沒有……"],["陳委員超明：現在就馬馬虎虎答應，大家再來拚，是不是？用時間來拚是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員不能這樣講，因為這是針對當時大家在評估的時候，我想各個業界都有評估過，那個量真的沒有很大。"],["陳委員超明：其實大家……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們只是想告訴大家，台積電的主要投資都在臺灣，所有的關鍵技術都在臺灣。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，你說主要的投資在臺灣，根據他們的資料，現在這幾個廠蓋完了就不蓋，因為臺灣的電力不夠，他不敢蓋啦！我們要承認一些事實啊！這是他們內部給我們的消息啦！所以只有往外蓋，往外蓋對美國投資4,600億對臺灣有沒有幫忙？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們都有跟台積電定期在會議，對於所有新廠需要的電力跟水……"],["陳委員超明：有些話你們不敢講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：包括道路，我們每個月都有在談。"],["陳委員超明：現在這些廠蓋完，就不會在臺灣蓋新的廠了，他們也已經了解臺灣的電力不夠，你們要相信這一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電目前對臺灣的設廠並沒有改變。"],["陳委員超明：不要對臺灣人只講好聽的話。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不會這樣的，的確我們在開會時，我們對每一個廠的需求都有在滿足，所以到目前為止，台積電的計畫並沒有改變，這我很肯定。"],["陳委員超明：我是不怎麼樂觀，你們現在都說好聽話。","再來一個問題，你是台積電的董事，台積電被洩漏2奈米技術到日本，只有星期三一天的新聞，今天是星期四，所有新聞都沒有了，這真「夭壽」！我看起來，他是從台積電離開到日本一家叫做TEL的公司上任，它是半導體設備供應商第三名。竊取了這個技術到日本那個晶片團隊叫做Rapidus，它是日本的國家隊，他們在7月18號2奈米已經試作成功了。你們每天在說臺灣的匪諜很多，現在日本的間諜也不少，我看臺灣已經千瘡百孔隨便人家了。我也覺得很奇怪，如果你是台積電的董事，你應該關心台積電，這個事情怎麼連今天的報紙新聞都沒有？是日本人很會做公共關係？還是臺灣政府在掩護這一塊？你跟我說。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：2奈米已經被偷出去了，臺灣政府都沒發聲嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，先講一下……"],["陳委員超明：是因為流到日本不敢出聲，還是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我先跟你報告，Rapidus當時成立的時候是選用IBM 2奈米技術，那是IBM的2奈米技術去賣給它的。第二，它的製程跟我們的製程是不一樣的，我們是一個產品投片可能就是一萬片、五千片，它的廠產能其實只有五千片，我們大部分都是五萬片以上。它為什麼只有五千片？因為它是走客製化，可以每一片都不一樣，是採用Hitachi之前的技術。"],["陳委員超明：你說Rapidus日本團隊是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我跟這些人也算熟悉，其實這個部分……"],["陳委員超明：你怎麼很相信日本人講的話？每一片不一樣，除了做軍用，他不會想擴展他的生意嗎？為什麼要來偷取我們的2奈米？你們都說好聽話，一天到晚在罵對岸，對於日本這樣的情形，你們連屁都不敢放！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實這個動機……"],["陳委員超明：連講一聲重話都沒有，新聞整個封鎖起來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：動機檢調正在調查。"],["陳委員超明：我覺得我們這個國家永遠都是雙重標準。有時候日本、美國很恐怖，他要你的什麼就是絕對要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我有要求台積電要進行檢討，做一定的管控。目前它的偵測技術，至少這個是它主動偵測出來的，台積電這個部分還是很強的。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，2奈米被拿過去，臺灣的競爭地位，日本也是會很強的，我們的原料很多是那邊來的，設備也是從那邊來，他慢慢茁壯的話就會宰臺灣了！你還很樂觀在看待！這個生意是世界性在競爭的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有一個很難的……"],["陳委員超明：你不要以為他們對你好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不，有一個很難的就是做出2奈米，但能不能穩定在很高的良率，其實其他競爭對手像Intel做出來了、Samsung也做出來了……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，他是跟荷蘭ASML合作，沒有美國通用公司，還有TEL，三家半導體設備的廠商不會改進嗎？技術厲害的人看一下就知道「眉角」在哪裡了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可是Samsung這些公司也是在他們協助下做……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，做設備的一定會了解要怎樣去改進做到最好，這些資料過去了，你們還在替它掩護，我真不知道你們的心態到底是什麼？這個政府很奇怪，連2奈米的技術都外洩出去了，你們就只有看報導……設備那一關難過，你們不替他們緊張嗎？你們都沒有緊張的心理！但以後誰打贏了就是誰的天下！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們國科會都很認真的來參與調查，包括檢調也都在認真的調查。"],["陳委員超明：不夠認真啦！我看今天的報紙都沒有寫，這很莫名其妙！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在大家都很清楚了，就是有12年……"],["陳委員超明：要是發生在中國大陸，大概要吵上1個月啊！現在執政黨的人都不敢講話，我沒有看到任何一個人提問，真的很奇怪！邱志偉委員待會在我後面發言，你問一下，為什麼2奈米技術已經外流到日本了，臺灣都沒有發聲？只有第一天有新聞，第二天的新聞就全部封鎖，這是奇怪還是不奇怪？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員你可以這樣看，一個投手至少要有5種、3種以上的球路，他拿書學了一種就可以投職棒嗎？其實沒有那麼簡單啦！不是書看了就會，而且他只看到一部分，因為台積電是將其切割成很多段……"],["陳委員超明：你都替他們講話！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是事實！台積電的保護措施就是這樣做的，所以它按照……"],["陳委員超明：他們都這樣了，你們還替他們講話！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：一個產品的製程都將近好幾個月……"],["陳委員超明：你為什麼說它的製程，日本不一定可以學會？日本比臺灣人還笨嗎？這是你們拜為偶像的國家，怎麼會比我們笨！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在正在調查。"],["陳委員超明：你們就是這樣，以後臺灣的技術在你們這一代都會因此而消失了，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","李坤城","呂玉玲","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","廖先翔","葉元之","蔡易餘","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":437,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈\n局新規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147101_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}