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連台積電都沒有"},{"start":286.198,"end":311.918,"text":"台積電的活力毛利只有50幾%而已他還沒有100%啊你給他扣100%的關稅他活不下去啊我還是要講喔因為多數廠商還是以FoB為主你現在記不懂要講啊買方在付錢台積電當時希西威也跟我講過如果今天有關稅他會要他的客戶來負擔誰關稅都客戶付美國人付美國人付你可以去問希西威他自己講的我只是轉述這個話"},{"start":313.319,"end":314.92,"text":"台積電的毛利只有五成多五十幾趴很厲害了他也沒有一百趴他今天是因為在美國設廠"},{"start":330.831,"end":339.316,"text":"所以他後面料呢 大力多 很好 大家鼓掌他還在美國設廠 可是300多家相關的Supply Chain他沒有都要扣100%你不要忘了他剛剛有文提到的CHIP跟其他的Semi-conductor的相關的產業的產品當然 細項沒有出來 但是基本上要炒在蛋啦"},{"start":354.625,"end":359.57,"text":"沒有一個產業賺錢他100%的啦你說跟其他世界其他國家比大家也都沒有100%啦我活不下來啊 我活不下來啊 在這裡啊除非我在美國能夠轉移給別人報我付美國報我付嗎?川普報我付100%的關稅嗎?"},{"start":375.898,"end":380.742,"text":"這個都要去寫 阿如果是美國的話 阿美國就沒意義阿川普就這麼費工川普弄了半天結果他來付100% 奇怪這個邏輯 主委阿 這個阿這個你不要張口來講就這樣 謊話連篇怎麼會說美國幫你付 哪裡有美國幫你付美國幫你付這個錢 奇怪我只是就我的專業分析喔 我來自產業我來自產業 我來自產業"},{"start":404.358,"end":411.184,"text":"我來自學界我跟廠商都有溝通過我跟廠商也有溝通過很多廠商都說我學生咧不用說這樣啦你講整包我跟你講主委就是論事我一直跟你強調你都不回答的問題我是說下去美國市場的沒有問題"},{"start":430.077,"end":456.485,"text":"他沒有人力去的呢?怎麼辦?100%水庫你剛剛跟我講說川普要付啊你川普在那邊課啊?我沒有講川普要付你說FOB啊?FOB齁?你剛剛講FOB啊?業界過去都會經過協商因為每一家公司的巴根泡不一樣所以他會經過協商第二種我們有短期的因應方案去協助廠商降低成本"},{"start":457.245,"end":461.307,"text":"那我們這個預算 那對手因為也是漲100%我現在告訴你 你不要講對手你現在系統壓降 你看歐陵隧道我沒有系統壓降 只是我把事實做分析我會跟你講事實假如我是這個相關企業的老闆 我賺不到100%"},{"start":484.93,"end":497.655,"text":"我還要想跟他競爭你的假設這100%都要台灣的企業付的前提下講這件事情當然是台灣企業付不然的話川普是課這個稅是課薪資沒有因為你來自學界我來自產業我可以告訴你產業絕對會去協商協商稅 這樣美國會付喔這樣川普都沒有課啊川普都沒有收關稅了川普現在多plot"},{"start":510.694,"end":518.873,"text":"說多麼驕傲的說我扣關稅已經扣了一千多億美金如果都是美國人的包袱他為什麼講這話"},{"start":520.823,"end":548.504,"text":"他為什麼要講這個話對不對 來這個我看下一頁我請教一個 今天其實更重要的主題在這裡主權基金你是主管單位 對吧主權基金我不是主管單位是喔 怎麼不是 你Google一下國安會是主管單位喔我們只是只是現在在評估負責評估而已那你什麼時候可以把草案送到行政院我們現在正在訪談"},{"start":550.75,"end":575.968,"text":"幾個主要的國家的主權基金因為他這裡面非常的複雜我們必須很慎重的處理大概給我們時間表什麼時候可以送到行政院我們的我們目前的看法就是我們寧願做很好的準備而不是有時間表那我們現在正在排到幾個國家去拜訪請教他們他們的做法是什麼因為他必須第一今年底有沒有辦法可能出來草案出來有沒有可能今年底"},{"start":576.918,"end":603.031,"text":"我們還要一層一層的上報這個看看這樣的準備夠不夠但是我跟您報告很重要的就是他如何能夠被監管的情況下又有自由的外界高度質疑非常大外界高度質疑你這個主權基金為什麼原來民進黨政府是反對的突然同意了因為主要都是要投資美國送過去美國那裡好最後一點我要跟你講一個東西川普講的"},{"start":604.738,"end":630.999,"text":"那是我們美國的錢啦日本對美國5500億所以我給他15%歐盟6000億南韓3500億美金那是美國的錢就很像職棒簽約的簽約金那是他的money結果我們為了拚面子我們為了跟韓國日本一樣拚5%我們每年賣到美國只有1160億"},{"start":635.565,"end":644.769,"text":"很多了省5%省60億美金為了省60億美金外面外傳要給4千億美金所以台灣他要台灣這個對美投資4千億美金這是extra的喔這是extra不算在這裡面的喔你怎麼講這個數據我不知道從哪裡來的所以我沒辦法抗議媒體對講4千億換5%變成15%那怎麼樣變15%"},{"start":664.178,"end":666.463,"text":"我是覺得20%就認了不要審這個東西我沒辦法對未經證實的數據來做comment這個 各位這個我再跟你強調喔"},{"start":677.045,"end":701.999,"text":"我再跟你強調如果你剛剛講是對的說我們都有辦法轉嫁的話川普不必課這個稅啦所以我剛剛講企業一定會去商量不是這樣子啦我剛剛用的是商量我就跟你強調這個日本五千五百億歐盟六千億南韓三千五百億川普說那是美國的錢那是my money"},{"start":702.935,"end":711.559,"text":"美國的錢是美國的錢所以不管台灣投資多少都是他拿走的我們為了就拼這個我覺得0月20%就20%嘛其實20%的衝擊很大啦你現在來講什麼大利多我聽一聽我們說什麼利多那是在美國市場的"},{"start":725.543,"end":742.219,"text":"一個這個晶片廠也好半導體廠也好是利多但是沒有受得人以及對我們下一代的就業機會是很大的傷害我要跟你講到這一天謝謝謝謝韋恩有些地方可能也許彼此有誤解我下次再跟您報告謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時26分）謝謝主席。有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，川普總統說要對晶片課百分之百的關稅，你說對臺灣是大利多，我就覺得很奇怪喔！課100%的關稅，成本增加100%，晶片廠才賺到100%，對不對？你說今天股票漲，不要忘了台積電漲了55塊，台積電漲1塊錢，我們的加權指數漲8.61，所以基本上主要是台積電以及你剛剛提到中美晶有在美國設廠的那一些工廠，他們的股票漲，其他的股票不漲啊！都跌啊！你仔細看一下，怎麼會整個是大利多呢？我都不知道大利多從何講起？怎麼會有一個大利多？大利多是指他有在美國設廠，當然是零關稅，當然是大利多，對台積電當然是大利多；其他沒有設廠的呢？請問我們半導體總共有幾家，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我講的是利多，利多主要是因為我們主要的產值在……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！我的時間有限，你不用講……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是有限的，是在這些廠商嘛，其他的廠商，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：對，就是有在美國設廠，當然是利多，因為零關稅，別人是100%，當然是利多，可是那一些沒有去的廠商呢？你告訴我，現在有幾家的半導體廠商在國內，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：國內現在……"],["賴委員士葆：半導體廠商有幾家？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：半導體廠商的話，我沒有細數過。"],["賴委員士葆：大概、roughly？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：roughly應該有10家以上。"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！全部半導體產業跟半導體有關係的，你怎麼都沒有講？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟半導體有關係的那就太多了。"],["賴委員士葆：對！supply 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chain，整個供應鏈加起來307家，就業人口31.7萬人。主委，我是替你煩惱，這三、四百家都可以去美國設廠嗎？都有這個條件嗎？它都像台積電資本這麼雄厚，可以到處設廠，難道每一家都可以嗎？這些沒有去的人課100%！他賺的有超過100%嗎？我2塊錢賣4塊錢、賣5塊錢，這麼厲害，有賺100%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我有報告過我們有兩個方案，一個是短期方案，一個是中長期方案。"],["賴委員士葆：是！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：短期方案是應急的，我們編列930億以上的金額來做這件事，我們是……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣還是不夠啦！主委，我更關心的是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個部分，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：來，請聽我講完。就業人口三十幾萬，因為這是2023年的資料，現在應該是三十幾萬了，我最擔心的是我替我們的下一代擔心，你知道嗎？台積電去設廠，馬上少掉幾萬的工程師就業機會，美國有去多少，你告訴我？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，這是一個錯誤的訊息。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼錯誤訊息？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電在國內的設廠更多，所以台積電現在招募的員工一年超過8億，它並沒有讓工作消失……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要跟我雞同鴨講，不要只有講台積電，我講的是其他整個產業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個，這100%不是只有對臺灣徵100%，對全世界每一個競爭對手都是付一樣的錢。"],["賴委員士葆：所以怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就跟計程車一起漲價一樣，會造成……"],["賴委員士葆：不是啊，對我來講，我管其他人，我賺不到100%啊，我現在去那裡要加100%啊，除非我去美國設廠！我沒有去美國設廠，我就加100%，我沒辦法活啊！問題在這裡。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在主要是跟競爭者打到的，我們現在正在評估，像GlobalFoundries在美國有廠等等，我們去了解它，我們現在正在了解它，但它絕對……"],["賴委員士葆：主委啊，我關心的我再強調一遍，我們下一代優秀工程師的就業機會，因為都要去美國才0%，對不對？你100%，我賺得到100%嗎？那麼厲害，打死我也不信，你現在隨便講一家國內的廠商，它的獲利100%以上，你告訴我哪一家？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以委員……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我哪一家，連台積電都沒有，台積電的獲利、毛利只有百分之五十幾而已，它也沒有100%，你給它課100%的關稅……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員這一點……"],["賴委員士葆：它活不下去啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還是要講，因為多數廠商還是以FOB為主……"],["賴委員士葆：你現在雞同鴨講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是買方在付錢，當時台積電C.C. Wei也跟我講過，如果今天有關稅，它會要它的客戶來負擔，它不會……"],["賴委員士葆：所以關稅都客戶付、美國人付？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你可以去問C.C. Wei，這他自己講的，我只是轉述這個話，廠商跟我講的話。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，你要這樣子鴕鳥……我再強調一遍……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我要跟委員報告，我們最近端出AI新十大建設，我們認為我們的未來在AI。"],["賴委員士葆：台積電的毛利只有五成多，很厲害了，它也沒有100%！它今天是因為在美國設廠，所以它豁免掉了，這是大利多，很好，大家鼓掌。可是三百多家相關的supply chain沒有，都要扣100%！你不要忘了剛剛有委員提到了，chips跟其他的semiconductors的相關產業的產品，當然細項沒有出來，但是基本上要「剉咧等」，沒有一個產業賺100%的！你雞同鴨講，你說跟其他世界、其他國家比100%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大家也都沒有100%，全世界沒有100%啦！"],["賴委員士葆：問題我活不下來！在這裡啊！除非我這100%能夠轉移，給別人幫我付，美國幫我付嗎？川普幫我付這100%關稅嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個都要去協商。"],["賴委員士葆：如果是美國的話，川普哪需要這麼費工？川普弄了半天，結果它來付100%？真奇怪！這個邏輯……主委啊，你不要張口來講就謊話連篇，怎麼會說美國幫你付，哪裡有美國幫你付？美國幫你付這個錢？真奇怪！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我只是就我的專業分析，我來自產業……"],["賴委員士葆：我也就我的專業跟你講，你是錯的！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我來自產業。"],["賴委員士葆：我來自學界。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，跟產學向來有距離的。"],["賴委員士葆：我不會比你差，不要這樣子！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第一個事情是我跟廠商都有溝通過。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟廠商也有溝通過，很多廠商的老闆是我學生。不用說這樣啦，你講一大堆？我跟你講，主委，就事論事，我一直跟你強調，但你都不回答我的問題！我是說現在去美國設廠的沒有問題；但沒有去的、沒有能力去的怎麼辦？100%誰付？你剛剛跟我講說川普要付，那川普就不用課了啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有講川普要付。"],["賴委員士葆：你說FOB啊！對不對？你講FOB啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：FOB都是買方在付，這個都要業界……"],["賴委員士葆：業界，美國……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：過去都是經過協商，因為每一家公司的bargain power不一樣，所以它會經過協商。第二個，我們有短期的因應方案去協助廠商降低成本，我們這個預算也會端出來。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣你也沒辦法100%！100%的關稅是要怎麼活？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對手因為也是漲100%……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在告訴你……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大家都必須找出答案。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講對手，你現在雞同鴨講！你看看，「黑龍繞桌」。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有雞同鴨講，只是我把事實做……"],["賴委員士葆：我要跟你講，我也跟你講事實。假如我是相關企業的老闆，我賺不到100%！它把我課100%，我都沒辦法活，我還要想跟它競爭，根本賣不掉啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你的假設是這100%都要臺灣的企業付的前提下講這件事情。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是臺灣企業，不然川普課這個稅是課心酸的喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為您來自學界，我來自產業，我可以告訴你產業絕對會去協商，因為過去並沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：叫美國付喔？川普都不用課了啊，川普都沒有收關稅了。川普現在多proud、多麼驕傲地說我課關稅已經課了一千多億美金！如果都是美國人幫它付，他為什麼講這種話？對不對？我請教一個，今天其實更重要的主題在這裡。主權基金你是主管單位對吧？主權基金。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不是主管單位。"],["賴委員士葆：是喔，怎麼不是？你google一下，國發會是主管單位喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們只是現在在評估，負責評估而已。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你什麼時候可以把草案送到行政院？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在正在訪談幾個主要國家的主權基金，因為這裡面非常複雜，我們必須很慎重地處理。"],["賴委員士葆：大概、給我們時間表，什麼時候可以送到行政院？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們目前的看法就是我們寧願做很好的準備，而不是有時間表。我們現在正在排到幾個國家去拜訪，請教他們的作法是什麼，因為它必須，第一個……"],["賴委員士葆：草案有沒有可能在今年底出來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們還要一層一層地上報，看看這樣的準備夠不夠。但是我跟您報告，很重要的就是它如何能夠被監管的情況下又有自由的……"],["賴委員士葆：外界高度質疑你這個主權基金，為什麼？原來民進黨政府是反對的，突然同意了，因為主要都是要投資美國，送過去美國那裡。最後一點我要跟你講一個東西，川普講的，那是我們美國的錢啊，日本對美國5,500億，所以我給它15%；歐盟6,000億；南韓3,500億美金，那是美國的錢，就很像職棒簽約的簽約金，那是它的money結果我們為了拚面子，我們為了要跟韓國、日本一樣便宜5%，我們每一年賣到美國只有1,160億，很多了，省5%，省60億美金。為了省60億美金，外傳要給4,000億美金。它要臺灣對美投資4,000億美金，這是extra的喔！不算在你這裡面的，你怎麼講？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個數據我不知道從哪裡來的，所以我沒辦法comment。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體一堆講4,000億換5%，變成15%，怎麼樣變15%？我是覺得20%就認了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒辦法對於……"],["賴委員士葆：不要省這個東西，因為……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒辦法對未經證實的數據來做comment，抱歉。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，我再跟你強調，如果你剛剛講的是對的，都有辦法轉嫁的話，川普就不必課這個稅啦！都是美國人在付錢，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我剛才講企業一定會去商量。"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子啦，隨便講講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我剛剛用的是商量。"],["賴委員士葆：我再跟你強調，日本5,500億、歐盟6,000億、南韓3,500億，川普說那是美國的錢、那是my money，美國的錢，是美國的錢，所以不管臺灣投資多少都是它拿走的，我們為了拼這個，我覺得寧願20%，就20%吧！其實20%衝擊很大啦，你現在來講什麼大利多，我光聽就暈了，什麼利多？對那一些在美國設廠的晶片廠也好、半導體廠也好，是利多；但是沒有設的人以及對我們下一代的就業機會是很大的傷害！我要跟你強調這一點，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，有些地方也許彼此有誤解，我下次再跟您報告，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請李坤城委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","李坤城","呂玉玲","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","廖先翔","葉元之","蔡易餘","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":437,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈\n局新規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147101_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}