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請問一下現在如果直接問你 在董事會裡面川普要求台積電多投資兩千億美金那不曉得你的態度 以及台積電的態度會是怎樣我還是要看台積電的分析啦那這種投資一定要分析嘛那分析利弊 分析所有的一切嘛那我等待他的分析啦但是會不會討論我"},{"start":89.975,"end":112.901,"text":"我也至少應該沒有在議題內目前所以下週董事會不會討論到台積電要不要去增加投資這個議題我們沒辦法去會不會有臨時的議題但是至少目前我們沒有要至少目前是沒有昨天提出來那如果台積電還是要看台積電有沒有要有沒有把他納入議題來討論"},{"start":114.586,"end":132.456,"text":"因為你也是董事之一嘛而且你又是官方的代表你應該不是被動對你也是有一些主動權所以才請教你的態度不會我沒辦法在董事會跟他們講說聽到媒體川普有這樣講你要不要這樣做那如果按照主委這樣講法還是要由經營團隊來對他經營的現況的狀態提出評估"},{"start":139.52,"end":161.641,"text":"至於他要不要take這樣的想法也是經營團隊做出我們看到魏哲嘉董事長他講的最新的說法是說台積電目前就是投資1650億美金目前還是以這個態度那您是說下週沒有這個議題但是不知道會不會忽然間有臨時提案這目前您掌握的狀況這個是"},{"start":164.144,"end":169.652,"text":"謝謝那另外一個就是我早上有看到你發言你說即便是232川普的關稅加到100%你覺得也沒問題因為台灣很有競爭力我沒有說一定沒有問題但是對我們的衝擊相較別的國家來看目前我們的衝擊是"},{"start":180.686,"end":204.015,"text":"還算是 他是因為別的國家半導體也要100%的狀況 他也是100%對 大家都是100%的狀況 多數沒有在美國設置就是同樣條件情況之下你認為我們有競爭力嗎所以不會 是從競爭的角度我早上的說法是我們在這個業界我們是領先的國家我知道 我知道 這我還沒有問問題的但是我的問題是說你現在是用競爭的角度在談這個事但問題是你今天可能會產生兩個問題嘛第一個 如果"},{"start":211.058,"end":234.775,"text":"232關稅是100%半導體是100%的話那還是會壓縮到台積電的獲利啊還是會啊因為到時候品牌商有可能會叫台積電來分擔這個關稅所產生的成本嘛這是第一個問題嘛第二個問題是那產業他有沒有可能因為不想要付這100%他就直接就移到美國去這也是有可能那如果移過去的話會影響到國內的就業嘛"},{"start":236.596,"end":266.082,"text":"其實還有第三個問題啦 第三個問題就是那這個232其實它影響的不是只有半導體產業它還有影響其他電子業那其他的電子業是不是如你所講的在全球都是這麼有都是那麼樂觀啦所以不曉得這個主委你是怎麼看待這個事情針對台積電的部分喔 因為台積電在美國十幾年前就設廠了在奧拉岡州那亞利桑那的第一廠也也都蓋好了嘛 所以它"},{"start":266.702,"end":288.243,"text":"已經符合川普零關稅的條件所以今天台積電我剛剛聽其他委員的分享是股價的大漲因為它本身更具競爭力因為台積電關稅是零那當然台灣有一些已經在美國有工廠的那你這次這個過程看起來都有受惠"},{"start":289.564,"end":310.538,"text":"那另外對於其他廠商我想我今天早上也說明很多次我們其實都做過座談會我們當然那時候的關稅沒有到那麼高只是大家在談關稅的時候只要是齊頭式的大家競爭對手也是拉那麼高的話他們認為就競爭的角度我們就所以諸位對不起我們時間有限所以你認為說這個232關稅就算"},{"start":313.76,"end":339.715,"text":"再高其實對台積電或是其他廠商來說是有利的你的結論是這樣委員你這個結論是不對的因為你剛剛講說因為他們在那個美國已經有廠啦所以這不會影響它嘛我講的是叫相較喔我知道當你都在100%的時候相較其他的地方但是我剛剛提的是它有沒有可能它有沒有可能就更增加投資嘛等一下我沒有講完就是說它有沒有可能會因為它"},{"start":340.695,"end":347.785,"text":"產業就直接移過去不想被抽太多然後甚至壓縮利潤嘛我剛剛講的是這個嘛你沒有回答嘛對我最後問一個問題你的台積電"},{"start":350.891,"end":370.738,"text":"因為那個工程最近有發生有工程師就竊取二奈米的機密資料那昨天大家在討論說是日本這個廠商日本廠商有一個合作的廠商是他們的晶片國家隊所以我不知道說我們現在在政府包括主委您同時是國會主委您也本身也是台積電的官方董事"},{"start":371.718,"end":380.612,"text":"你對於日本有公司然後利用這種方式可能疑似得到我們的二代名的機密資料你的態度是什麼"},{"start":383.033,"end":408.297,"text":"我的態度是很清楚的第一個我們我第一個時間其實我有這個去通知這個台積電請他說明因為我們希望能夠從此把門關起來其實遇到問題解決問題比較重要那我們先把這個問題要解決掉把門關好那台積電看起來已經做好了新的各種因為這是他主動偵測那現在他主要是"},{"start":411.658,"end":427.198,"text":"主要的原因他们也在解决那就政府而言检调出去之后国科会也进来依据国安法的部分都进来了那相关权责单位也进来了那整个背后的犯案动机可能要经过检调调查的结果了"},{"start":427.358,"end":443.092,"text":"我們現在可能很難影射說就是哪一家公司啦那看當事人的犯案動機經過偵查之後應該會有個明朗的結果所以你現在的態度就是說先只有就是先防避不要再讓這個事情再繼續然後第二個是說檢調介入那政府現在面對"},{"start":444.173,"end":462.189,"text":"可能日本的公司他現在疑似竊取了我們機密那這件事情政府的態度是什麼我不是說針對台積電政府的態度很清楚這是一個國安的問題所以我們會引用國安法來處理但是因為你的意思是說因為國安法是針對我們內部嘛我現在是說政府對外因為這是日本的公司啊你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":463.052,"end":480.828,"text":"我的態度很清楚你不要講說對台積電的態度或者是說對犯案我的態度剛才也講得很清楚我們必須偵查清楚這個當事人犯案的背後的動機他背後是不是一定是日本人其實我們現在是一個議程因為這是國與國的事情我們必須把事情查得很清楚"},{"start":481.368,"end":497.255,"text":"然後再來做對 查清楚那現在因為人都已經在都在剪掉的掌握上了他應該可以查清楚對 查清楚之後如果是牽涉到國慾國你才會有一個比較強硬的態度出來是不是應該會依據事實來做決定啦好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1060,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時32分）請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。主委，您其實有兩種身分，一個是國發會主委，你也是台積電官方的股東，所以問到台積電這個問題的話，我覺得你的角色是比較尷尬，一方面要配合政府政策，另外一方面要兼顧企業的獲利。所以我想問一下官方董事，有關於大家關注台積電議題的一些態度。第一個是，昨天傳出川普希望台積電去增加投資3,000億美金，最新的說法又變2,000億，你的了解是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的了解，目前台積電沒有討論過這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：台積電是沒有，但川普有期望嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是他的個人期望。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，你早上有這樣講。下周就有台積電董事會，您會去開嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我會去。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，現在如果直接在董事會裡面問你：川普要求台積電多投資2,000億美金，不曉得你的態度以及台積電的態度會是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還是要看台積電的分析！"],["葉委員元之：您就是董事啊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：投資一定要分析，分析利弊、分析所有的一切，我等待他的分析。但是會不會討論，至少目前應該沒有在議題內。"],["葉委員元之：所以下周董事會，不會討論到台積電要不要去增加投資這個議題？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒辦法保證會不會有臨時的議題，但是至少目前是沒有，他昨天提出來嘛，還是要看台積電有沒有把它納入議題來討論。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，因為你是董事之一，而且你又是官方的代表……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是董事啊……"],["葉委員元之：你應該不是被動，你也是有一些主動權，所以才來請教你的態度。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不會，我沒辦法在董事會跟他們講：從媒體上聽到川普有這樣講，你要不要這樣做？那是不合規定的，還是要由經營團隊對經營的現況狀態提出評估。至於他要不要take這樣的想法，也是經營團隊做出決定……"],["葉委員元之：魏哲家董事長最新的說法是台積電目前投資1,650億美金……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：所以目前還是以這個態度啦！您說下周董事會沒有這個議題，但是不知道會不會忽然間有臨時提案，這是目前您掌握的狀況……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個是公司決定。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。","另外，我早上有看到你說，即便是232條款川普關稅加到100%，你覺得也沒問題，因為臺灣很有競爭力……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有說一定沒有問題！但是對我們的衝擊，相較別的國家來看，目前我們的衝擊還算是比較好的。"],["葉委員元之：那是因為別的國家半導體也要100%的狀況……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也是100%，然後多數沒有在美國設廠的……"],["葉委員元之：就是同樣條件情況之下，你認為我們有競爭力，是從競爭的角度，可是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我早上的說法是，我們在業界是領先的國家……"],["葉委員元之：我知道、我知道，對，我還沒問這問題！我的問題是說，你現在是用競爭的角度談這件事，問題是今天可能會產生兩個問題，第一個，如果232條款半導體關稅是100%的話，還是會壓縮到台積電的獲利，還是會啊！因為到時候品牌商有可能會叫台積電來分擔關稅所產生的成本，這是第一個問題。","第二個問題是，產業有沒有可能因為不想要付這100%，就直接就移到美國去？這也是有可能，如果移過去的話，會影響到國內的就業。","其實還有第三個問題，232條款影響的不是只有半導體產業，還有影響其他電子業，其他電子業是不是如您所講的在全球都是那麼樂觀？不曉得主委是怎麼看待這個事情？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：針對台積電的部分，因為台積電十幾年前就在美國奧勒岡州設廠，亞利桑那的第一廠也都蓋好了，已經符合川普零關稅的條件，我剛剛聽其他委員分享今天台積電股價是大漲，因為台積電關稅是零，他本身會更具競爭力。當然臺灣有一些企業已經在美國有設工廠的，由這次的過程看起來都有受惠！","另外，對於其他廠商，我今天早上也說明很多次，其實都做過座談會，當然那時候的關稅沒有到麼高，大家在談關稅是說只要是齊頭式的，如果競爭對手也是拉麼高的話，他們認為就競爭的角度，我們就有競爭力……"],["葉委員元之：主委對不起，因為時間有限。所以你認為232條款關稅就算再高，其實對台積電或是其他廠商來說是有利的？你的結論是這樣……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，你這個結論是不對的。"],["葉委員元之：因為你剛剛講說，他們在美國已經有廠，所以這不會受到影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我講的是相較哦！"],["葉委員元之：我知道、我知道。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：當你都在100%的時候，相較其他的地方，不是說100%就一定沒有……"],["葉委員元之：但我剛剛提的是他有沒有可能就更增加投資，造成國內……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是對台積電是沒有的……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，我沒有講完，他有沒有可能會因為產業不想被抽太多，直接移過去，甚至壓縮利潤，我剛剛講的是這個，但你沒有回答。","我最後再問一個問題，台積電最近有發生工程師竊取2奈米機密資料，昨天大家在討論有一個合作的日本廠商，是他們的晶片國家隊，所以我不知道現在賴政府，包括主委，您同時是國科會主委，本身也是台積電的官方董事，你對於日本有公司利用這種方式，可能疑似得到2奈米的機密資料，你的態度是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的態度是很清楚的，我第一個時間其實有通知台積電，請他們說明，因為我們希望能夠從此把門關起來。其實遇到問題，解決問題比較重要，先把這個問題解決掉，把門關好。台積電看起來已經做好了各種……因為這是他主動偵測，現在主要的問題，他們也在解決。就政府而言，檢調出動之後，國科會也進來，依據國安法的部分都進來了，相關權責單位也進來了，整個背後的犯案動機可能要經過檢調調查才知結果，我們現在可能很難影射說就是哪一家公司，要看當事人的犯案動機，經過偵查之後，應該會有個明朗的結果。"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在的態度就是先防弊，然後不要再讓這件事情再繼續發生；第二個是檢調介入。政府現在面對可能日本的公司疑似竊取了我們的機密，這件事情政府的態度是什麼？我不是針對台積電……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：政府的態度很清楚，這是一個國安的問題，所以我們會引用國安法來處理。"],["葉委員元之：你的意思是說……因為國安法是針對我們內部嘛，我現在是說政府對外，因為這是日本的公司，你們態度是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的態度很清楚……"],["葉委員元之：你不要講說對台積電態度，或者是說對犯案……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的態度剛才也講得很清楚，我們必須偵查清楚這個當事人犯案背後的動機，他背後是不是一定是日本人？其實我們現在是臆測。"],["葉委員元之：不知道？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是國與國的事情，我們必須把事情查得很清楚，然後再來……"],["葉委員元之：等查清楚……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在因為人都已經在檢調的掌握了，應該可以查清楚。"],["葉委員元之：等查清楚之後，如果是牽涉到國與國，你才會有一個比較強硬的態度出來，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該會依據事實來做決定啦！"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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