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謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":24.842,"end":35.795,"text":"主委那因為川普昨天又公布了針對半導體所謂100%然後有在美國設廠就不再豁免的概念但是這個大概"},{"start":37.277,"end":59.15,"text":"還不是很明確因為川普這樣的宣示但是相對比較明確的是8月7號已經上路的這個暫時性關稅那台灣就是20%所以我們看起來就是說對美國逆差的國家包括台灣是美國第六大逆差的第六差國家所以台灣在跟美國談判"},{"start":60.451,"end":64.135,"text":"當然可能要面對相對比較大的壓力他會希望台灣要釋出我們一些產品的進口的關稅的下降或者是其他的方式但是這個20%來確實有很多國人在"},{"start":78.807,"end":92.588,"text":"在比較就是跟日本跟韓國那跟日本台灣跟日本呢產品的事實上互補性比較高一點所以我們跟日本相對來說同樣在出口美國的我們的競爭競爭比較少比較少"},{"start":94.631,"end":121.665,"text":"但是相對的韓國就比較多了所以我想要請教的就是主委就是說韓國過去跟美國因為有FTA有自由貿易協定所以他們在於FTA的一個架構之下韓國跟美國之間有超過95%的商品是零關稅95%的商品那是過去的時代但是川普看起來他的這個對等關稅"},{"start":123.226,"end":150.651,"text":"他是推翻了過去的自由貿易協定嘛是這樣的沒有錯嘛那自然推翻了過去的自由貿易協定那台灣跟韓國過去在競爭上因為韓國有FTA台灣跟美國還沒有簽署了BTA或者是FTA那是不是台灣跟韓國之間過去應該就有所謂稅率的劣勢我們的廠商在出口美國的這一塊"},{"start":151.851,"end":174.382,"text":"就非科技產品式的非科技產品嘛在WTO的豁免清單裡面的話大家是條件沒有差異很大WTO這個架構之下大家是一樣的嘛但是在這個豁免清單在科技產品類以外的我們的確在稅率上面我們是因為它有FTA的優勢"},{"start":175.714,"end":186.865,"text":"它有FTA的優勢所以可能台灣過去有一些產品在銷售美國的時候我們可能也會有課3% 5%幾%對不對那現在好現在又比較起來在對等關稅下韓國是15%那台灣是20%"},{"start":196.513,"end":217.888,"text":"我們差了這5%但是如果再把之前FTA的因素來做一個稍微扣掉多少事實上差的%數也許沒有那麼多甚至也許在過去可能台灣跟韓國我們被課5%以上的那會不會因為15%跟20%的差距反而減少了跟韓國的競爭的關稅的劣勢"},{"start":227.103,"end":254.906,"text":"目前我的認知是沒有啦沒有這樣的狀況目前是沒有為什麼呢因為它是增增加增的加增在那個既有稅率下加增所以我們現在的20%就在既有的稅率上加增再加增好那這一次我要問的第二個問題因為今天日本日本就忽然出了一個新聞說日本方面也去說哇原來他們的15%"},{"start":256.801,"end":279.679,"text":"是指以前低於15%的以前低於15%的就是以15%來計算那如果高於在以前他的商品是高於15%的那就不是15%還是用之前的一個關稅這是日本今天有這樣的一個訊息出來所以他們認為說這樣的話並不是所有商品都退到15%"},{"start":281.932,"end":296.705,"text":"那未來我們台灣的談判也是這樣的一個邏輯嗎我相信我們現在台灣團隊是很聰明的啦他如果有看到日本這個訊息應該會納進來做談判的討論因為這個訊息跑出來嘛因為日本已經發現說這個15%並不是所有商品一律15%他是指說過去是20%的雖然已經談到15%可是還是一樣用20%來計算"},{"start":310.895,"end":326.806,"text":"因為這時候很多是美國單方面因為他們主導談判所以他們很多決策是他們在做在做決策但是在談判的時候剛剛講到的就是說這部分我們台灣應該也要注意對我覺得這應該我們會注意到"},{"start":330.456,"end":355.846,"text":"還是我們已經注意到了因為我們注意到是歐盟的部分因為歐盟已經有寫出來那有協議但是歐盟的協議是怎樣日本當時好像沒有協議歐盟是全部都是15%他是說原稅率高於15%的就不再加徵那原稅率低於15%的課15%那跟日本有點一樣因為他是加徵稅率的加徵"},{"start":357.932,"end":384.873,"text":"所以原稅這樣我還是不懂你剛說我們台灣如果原稅率是5%原稅率5%那在對等關稅之下是加徵對變25%是這樣嗎台灣目前是這樣但是等到談判的結果像歐盟這樣的寫法就變成是說舉個例子歐盟的做法就會我們20%然後原稅率是5%的話他就會直接寫出來是20%"},{"start":386.673,"end":411.587,"text":"歐盟是這樣歐盟是這樣做他就是原稅率如果是5%原稅率如果低於15%的就以15%算就以15%算他沒有加徵OK他沒有加徵那原稅如果高於15%的呢就以原稅率就以原稅率這是歐盟的那就跟日本一樣啦對日本也是這樣類似這樣所以日本可能他們原本期待都是15%結果後來發現他們跟歐盟也一樣"},{"start":414.349,"end":428.074,"text":"如果原稅率高於15%的他們一樣是被課原稅因為這個有像在232裡面對銅這些銅鐵這種有50%的稅嘛那是232的規範232又是另外232啊就不在這15%就不在這他們的15%的那個稅率的規範就會在50%來課證嘛所以這跟我的理解又不一樣所以232不是累加的"},{"start":444.678,"end":464.53,"text":"232就是說如果232的稅率已經定在那邊了就繼續走232對繼續走232所以不管不管20不管有沒有這個20存在他們就是繼續走232包括這次的晶片就會就會也就不在這個範圍晶片就是另外嘛對不對所以我們大概有74%點幾的產品像是在232的範圍對我們的產品在232很多對"},{"start":474.366,"end":483.432,"text":"嗯 主委應該我的時間不多啦可是我覺得我們這樣的一個對話我還是很多概念我沒辦法釐清所以我覺得國人會更亂"},{"start":485.004,"end":508.604,"text":"那當然現在還在談判的一個階段中我是覺得說我們整個談判的過程就是要把所有對我們不利以及我們有利的因素都整理好那以及現在因為現在歐盟跟日本現在也發現說有很多狀況好像跟他們談判的時候的預期是不一樣的那這些東西如果我們這個戰爭性關稅我們還在進行接下來的談判我覺得這些東西我們有機會都要跟美國說得好"},{"start":514.056,"end":530.195,"text":"好不好 盡量朝向讓它是簡單然後大家是知道的好的我們會轉好如果是說好單純是用232那232我們現在在談判也在一併談嘛那到底未來不要再累加 累加就比較可怕"},{"start":531.338,"end":555.112,"text":"這我們不知道啦我們希望你們好好談但是整個狀況如果談出了一個有一個結論之後要跟國人報告可能就要把這一些我剛設想的有很多到底是怎麼累加或者是高於原本高於20%的部分或是高於多少的部分那以後是要怎麼計算我剛剛都要給國人一次的說明清楚好不好好的好的我會轉達謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們就"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1121,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時41分）謝謝召委，是不是有請劉主委？"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，因為川普昨天又公布了針對半導體產業關稅100%，但不適用於在美國設廠的公司，這樣豁免的概念。這大概還不是很明確，但川普有這樣的宣示，但是相對比較明確的是8月7號已經上路的暫時性關稅，臺灣就是20%。看起來對美國逆差的國家，包括臺灣是美國第六大逆差國，所以臺灣在跟美國談判，當然可能要面對相對比較大的壓力。他會希望臺灣要釋出一些產品進口關稅下降或者是其他的方式，但是這20%確實有很多國人在跟日本、韓國做比較。臺灣跟日本產品的互補性比較高一點，所以我們跟日本相對來說，同樣在出口美國的國家來說，我們的競爭……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：競爭比較少。"],["蔡委員易餘：比較少。但是相對的，韓國就比較多了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我想要請教主委的是，韓國過去跟美國有FTA，有自由貿易協定，所以他們在FTA的架構之下，韓國跟美國之間有超過95%的商品是零關稅。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：95%的商品零關稅，那是過去的時代。但是看起來川普的對等關稅是推翻了過去的自由貿易協定，是這樣沒有錯嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：推翻了過去的自由貿易協定，臺灣跟韓國過去在競爭上，因為韓國有FTA，臺灣跟美國還沒有簽署BTA或者是FTA，那是不是臺灣跟韓國之間，我們的廠商在出口美國的這塊過去應該就有稅率的劣勢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就非科技產品來說，是這樣沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：非科技產品嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在WTO的豁免清單裡面，大家條件沒有差異很大。"],["蔡委員易餘：在WTO的這個架構之下，大家是一樣的嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是這個豁免清單中，科技產品類以外的，我們的確在稅率上面是比較劣勢，因為他有FTA的優勢。"],["蔡委員易餘：他有FTA的優勢嘛！所以可能臺灣過去有一些產品銷售美國的時候，我們可能有課3%、5%等等，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在比較起來，在對等關稅下，韓國是15%，臺灣是20%，差了5%，但是如果再把之前FTA的因素稍微扣掉一點，事實上差的%數也許沒有那麼多。過去臺灣跟韓國相比，我們可能被課5%以上，現在會不會因為15%跟20%的差距反而減少了跟韓國競爭之關稅的劣勢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我的認知是沒有！"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有這樣的狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，目前是沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：為什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它是加徵的。"],["蔡委員易餘：加徵？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在既有稅率下加徵。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們現在的20%是在既有的稅率上再加徵？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這就是我要問的第二個問題。今天日本忽然出了一個新聞說，原來他們的15%是指以前商品低於15%的就是以15%來計算；如果以前他的商品是高於15%的，那就不是15%，還是用之前的關稅計算。日本今天有這樣的訊息出來，所以他們認為說……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，依據之前的邏輯是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以他們認為並不是所有的商品都退到15%，未來我們臺灣的談判也是這樣的邏輯嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我相信我們現在臺灣團隊是很聰明的，他如果有看到日本這個訊息，應該會納進來做談判的討論！"],["蔡委員易餘：因為這個訊息出來，日本已經發現說，這個15%並不是所有商品一律15%。而是指過去是20%的，雖然已經談到15%，可是還是一樣用20%來計算。因為這很多是美國單方面……因為他們主導談判，所以很多決策都是他們在做，但是在談判的時候，剛剛講到的這個部分，我們臺灣應該也要注意啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我覺得這個應該我們會注意到。"],["蔡委員易餘：還是我們已經注意到了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們注意到是歐盟的部分，因為歐盟已經有寫出來，有協議，但是……"],["蔡委員易餘：歐盟的協議是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：日本當時好像沒有協議。"],["蔡委員易餘：歐盟是全部都是15%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他是說原稅率高於15%的就不再加徵，原稅率低於15%的課15%，跟日本有點類似！因為他是加徵稅率的。"],["蔡委員易餘：加徵？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣我還是不懂！你剛剛說我們臺灣如果原稅率是5%，在對等關稅之下加徵就變25%，是這樣嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有、沒有。臺灣目前是這樣，但是等到談判的結果……像歐盟這樣的寫法就變成是說……舉個例子，歐盟的作法是，如果關稅是20%，然後原稅率5%的話，他就會直接寫出來是20%。"],["蔡委員易餘：歐盟是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：歐盟是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：他就是原稅率如果是5%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：原稅率如果低於15%的就以15%算，沒有加徵。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果原稅率高於15%的呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就以原稅率算。"],["蔡委員易餘：就以原稅率……這是歐盟的，那就跟日本一樣啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，類似這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以日本可能原本期待都是15%，結果後來發現他們跟歐盟也一樣，如果原稅率高於15%的，他們一樣是被課原稅率。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個像在232條款裡面對銅、鐵這種有50%的稅，那是232條款的規範。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，232條款是另外232條款啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就不在他們15%稅率的規範內，就會在50%來課徵嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：這跟我的理解又不一樣，所以232條款不是累加的？就是說，如果232條款的稅率已經定在那邊了，就繼續走232條款？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：繼續走232條款，所以不管有沒有這個20%存在，他們就是繼續走232條款？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，包括這次的晶片也就不在這個範圍內。"],["蔡委員易餘：晶片就是另外，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們大概有百分之七十四點幾的產品項是在232條款的範圍。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們的產品在232條款有很多。主委，我的時間不多，雖然我們這樣的對話，但還是有很多概念我沒辦法釐清，所以我覺得國人會更亂。","當然，現在還在談判的階段中，我覺得我們整個談判的過程，就是要把所有對我們不利，以及我們有利的因素都整理好。現在歐盟跟日本也發現，有很多狀況好像跟他們談判的時候的預期是不一樣的！如果我們設個暫時性關稅，我們還在進行接下來的談判，我覺得這些東西我們有機會都要跟美國把它談好，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：盡量朝向讓它是簡單的，然後大家是知道的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們會轉達。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果單純是用232條款，那現在在談判時232條款我們也在一併談，希望未來不要再累加，累加就會比較可怕。這我們不知道！我們希望你們好好談，但是整個狀況如果談出一個結論之後，要跟國人報告可能就要把我剛才設想的那些，像到底是怎麼累加，或者是原本高於20%的部分或是高於多少的部分以後是要怎麼計算，我覺得這些都要向國人一次說明清楚，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我會轉達。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們就等最後關稅談判結束之後請院長來跟立法院報告，也跟國人報告。","登記發言委員除不在場外其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員林岱樺、張嘉郡、張啓楷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分請相關單位於一週內書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","李坤城","呂玉玲","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","廖先翔","葉元之","蔡易餘","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":437,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈\n局新規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147101_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}