{"error":false,"id":["16346"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16346,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16346","日期":"2024-12-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2024-12-05T08:30:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-05T18:08:00+08:00","影片長度":"09:37:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4d2bbad01105bb9c90a0be61fea14818a82e37f9ba35fd778423b8115275d7e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":2052.657,"end":2053.137,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2070.607,"end":2087.844,"text":"新年還要追加一千三百億總共追加三千八百多億對老公好我們沒有意見我們也贊成但是為什麼要獨獨的追殺軍公教警校現在也被砍了兩千六百多億六年來平均一年四百多億要殺你了啦再加上現在來講退職的"},{"start":2095.509,"end":2104.055,"text":"公教錦銷不能夠跟現役的現職的一起的調整薪水也就是說我們政府有加薪軍公教人員加薪這些退職人員RR大夫沒有加薪要看我們高興的給他一丁高興的給他一丁不高興的一丁都不給"},{"start":2117.369,"end":2119.15,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2147.728,"end":2151.209,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":2177.052,"end":2180.554,"text":"這裏面民進黨執政占了17年今年17年國民黨只有執政8年了軍公教難道不是大家的子民嗎軍公教一定是民進黨要要除之而後快的一群嗎"},{"start":2195.452,"end":2197.754,"text":"為什麼對勞保可以這麼貼心一補再補三補四補這個我們也不會反對政府有錢啦GDP當年都說多少賺多少賺這樣一定是一定四趴幾趴全民共享啦"},{"start":2214.482,"end":2215.502,"text":"全民共享馬為什麼要獨獨的要殺軍公教特別是公教警校我再強調一遍過去這幾年來年該已經被殺掉了兩千六百多億可以了啦CPI"},{"start":2232.844,"end":2244.331,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2262.924,"end":2266.048,"text":"行政部門要居然人民說NO就是NO今天來講我們換屆為什麼法案就要停止重新來因為最新民意我們體會最新民意我們是最新民意我們提出來"},{"start":2279.546,"end":2286.928,"text":"我們希望政府三代軍公教錦霄這一類人這一類人也是中華民國的子民也是臺灣的子民他不是棄子啊他不是棄民他還不是棄子不是棄女我最後真的在強調很痛心的強調我們的觀點就是不能改不能改只是因為那是那參議員提出的不能改現在改纏換代了"},{"start":2308.206,"end":2313.69,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":2329.702,"end":2330.403,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案例"},{"start":2355.383,"end":2365.21,"text":"我們要撥亂緩正我們要撥亂緩正我們訴求很簡單勞保不改昨天勞動部長一直強調勞保絕對不會改不會再減那就跳票了我們的年應該是這樣加勞保軍工加勞保一起改現在勞保連一塊錢不會算加上已經給了到現在包括明年給了3800多億"},{"start":2384.121,"end":2390.384,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第13條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第13條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第14條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":2410.533,"end":2426.931,"text":"應該對於公教退休撫卹的辦法stop here停在這裡過去我們就不追究了就停在這裡那麼老保繼續補他我們也贊成這是我的訴求謝謝"},{"start":2432.967,"end":2455.567,"text":"那下一位我這邊先宣告一下就是因為今天登記發言的人非常多那是不是要麻煩大家注意一下發言的時間盡可能能在那個那個發言限制的時間內完成因為我剛剛看了一下今天已經到五十幾位登記發言了所以時間會非常久好那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2465.442,"end":2488.128,"text":"主席在座的各位委員各位媒體各位先生女士大家好那麼剛剛講到這個軍公教年改法案再次改革本席這裡與羅志強委員我們有共同提案所以我順便也講一下我的看法那麼軍公教年改就是一個錯誤的政策"},{"start":2489.468,"end":2517.417,"text":"錯誤的政策就要及時的停止而不應該讓這樣的錯誤的政策繼續延續下去軍公教年改不是不可以但是他要考慮到法律的安定性考慮到這個現在的這個已經退休或者是他已經期待要退休的人的權益的保障而法律呢應該是不溯及既往要考慮到當事人的信賴保護可是在這次的法案裡面"},{"start":2518.197,"end":2531.233,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":2533.576,"end":2537.6,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2549.471,"end":2557.416,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":2576.447,"end":2592.197,"text":"國家說他財源不佳就可以任意去砍軍公教的退職金這是極不合理的事情所以本席在這裡也認為說這次的改革法案是非常的有必要另外我有提出來另外一個"},{"start":2593.418,"end":2604.914,"text":"公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":2608.719,"end":2625.31,"text":"應該要起個帶頭的作用去營造良好的環境積極的鼓勵生育所以除了現行的育嬰假之外本席也參考國外的一些做法認為可以推出祖父母也可以申請留職停薪的育孫假的政策希望能夠減輕家庭的育兒負擔增加公務人員的生育意願因為我們目前是在公務人員的留職停薪辦法裡面"},{"start":2636.718,"end":2640.439,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":2657.205,"end":2684.953,"text":"那我這裡所提出的預算價主要的目的呢是希望能夠將現行的辦法再往上提升他的法律變成是法律就是提升他的法律位階那麼所以就修改公務人員任用法第28條之一那也懇請所有的委員能夠支持除了育嬰家之外我們應該也要有預算價謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請張家俊委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2700.823,"end":2722.849,"text":"主席各位委員我想今天我們共同在這裡要討論的就是公務人員退休資遣撫卹法修法的必要性那雖然這個法已經實行了6年但改革過程中所引發的爭議跟不公我想值得我們停下腳步重新檢視當年有許多的公務人員選擇進入公職"},{"start":2727.811,"end":2747.482,"text":"稍為國家的承諾穩定與保障他們為國家奉獻了這個青春盡心效力期待在退休後能夠獲得應有的生活照顧然而年金改革的內容卻背離了信賴保護原則甚至觸及法律不溯及既往的基本原則"},{"start":2748.983,"end":2769.865,"text":"導致許多退休的公務人員輪為軍貧族甚至有三分之一可能陷入貧困老人的處境國家違反承諾的行為不僅傷害了這些長期奉獻者的信任更對國家整體的信用基石造成了嚴重的損害"},{"start":2771.306,"end":2787.057,"text":"那當時的考試委員周玉珊、周智隆和季鵬等多位專家都公開表示憂慮為了這個年金改革過於猛烈那全訓部將35年年資作為所得替代率"},{"start":2788.277,"end":2810.382,"text":"基準點並逐年下降的設計無疑是一刀切激進的做法完全忽略了退休公務人員的基本需求與實際生活壓力那如今現實也證明了這些憂慮的正確性那行政院主席總處今年發布的高齡家庭消費者物價指數數據高齡家"},{"start":2813.083,"end":2816.144,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":2841.59,"end":2863.285,"text":"年改政策實施到現在已經六年了正是一個需要重新檢討的時刻那當時這個改革的時候抱持著很多對公務人員的敵視心態那這一次本席所提出的修法版本就是主張立即停止所得替代率逐年下降的設計同時刪除至民國113年起逐年下降"},{"start":2869.87,"end":2877.795,"text":"所得替代率的相關規定。那民進黨當時的版本所得替代率是每年下降1.5%最終要減少15%那目前其實已經下降了6%我的提案並非說要推翻所有的改革而是將現況固定下來"},{"start":2891.243,"end":2896.808,"text":"沒有要走回頭路而是要避免進一步的傷害在場的民進黨委員們不知道你們還記不記得2019年賴總統在民進黨總統初選的時候曾公開表示如果有機會擔任總統"},{"start":2907.938,"end":2932.49,"text":"年金改革的方向可以微調那今天他已經如願當選總統這個承諾正是可以兌現的時候那如果現在不改革到底什麼時候才要要拖延到什麼時候呢那現在保護原則是憲政精神的一部分因此呢改革的過程必須符合正義國家的承諾必須被堅守過去呢"},{"start":2934.611,"end":2954.338,"text":"措及既往的改革設計不但違反了這個法制原則試問更未來有多少人還會願意投身公職以青春奉獻國家呢所以這不僅僅是退休人員的問題更是未來國家發展重要的警訊因此本席再一次強調公務人員退休"},{"start":2958.139,"end":2981.887,"text":"資遣撫卹法的修正迫在眉睫這不是向過去的退讓而是對未來的負責希望各位委員能夠共同支持本席修法提案的這個修法為公務人員對退休的公務人員生活保障注入更多的穩定性跟公正性讓我們國家再次贏得人民的信任謝謝"},{"start":2985.052,"end":2988.994,"text":"謝謝,那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行提案說明今天公祭,明天旺祭每當我們看到有我們錦霄等危險勤務人員"},{"start":3010.319,"end":3039.426,"text":"他們在保護我們人民的生命安全的時候犧牲了生命受了重傷你就會看到官員政治人物帶著悲淒然後告訴你說我們會嚴加的來檢討來去改善今天我們警消危險勤務人員的待遇增加他們的裝備但是抱歉"},{"start":3041.519,"end":3065.819,"text":"左手左邊喊著今天要照顧錦霄但是當說要提高我們錦霄等危險勤務人員的退休待遇的時候他就跟你講 不行你們不值得我們政府的錢不想花在這個地方這就今天執政者的雙面臉孔民國94年11月9日"},{"start":3072.418,"end":3098.286,"text":"民國96年1月2日內政部警政署將勤務業務並同人員移撥到空中勤務總隊移民署等單位但他勤務的工作跟性質依舊跟警察海巡消防等人員相同需要24小時輪替扶勤同屬危牢職務"},{"start":3100.373,"end":3126.519,"text":"為了要保障警察海巡消防空勤以及移民署人員的權利同時激勵士氣我認為要參考警察消防海巡移民空勤人員及協助協情民力安全基金設置管理辦法以及警察消防海巡移民空勤人員醫療照護實施方案的設置精神"},{"start":3128.015,"end":3145.757,"text":"照顧現職跟退休警察消防海巡移民空勤總隊的人員以及他們因公死亡的人員的遺卷才能彰顯政府對這些人員的感謝跟保障所以"},{"start":3146.718,"end":3167.216,"text":"原來將原來警政署一波空勤總隊移民署的勤務人員因為他跟警察海巡消防所執行的勤務都是全序部認定屬於高度圍牢勤務應該跟國軍也享有相仿的人士跟退休保障我們要知道"},{"start":3168.223,"end":3189.885,"text":"根據內政部警政署的統計各位知道嗎?警消平均的死亡年齡是75歲跟國人平均的壽命81歲相比差距6年之多就算是把限縮到退休後死亡的年齡78歲也相差約3年所以我要特別強調"},{"start":3191.326,"end":3208.436,"text":"今天請我們的執政者對於這些危險勤務人員的感謝不要只是嘴巴說而已拜託在今天真正用行動來感謝捍衛人民安全的這些警消等危險勤務人員謝謝謝謝那我們現在為請黃建斌委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3224.962,"end":3243.832,"text":"謝謝主席。我想建議我們現行公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的規定已經大幅的減少依法審定年金之所得替代率而且連續十年內每年再減少1.5%的所得替代率更規定我們年金不再隨著在職人員薪資來調整"},{"start":3246.053,"end":3259.696,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":3272.458,"end":3301.48,"text":"善待他。同時讓有心加入公務人員考試的這群人相信我們這個國家未來會照顧自己。受到所述的意見我們擬具了公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案。我想將年金重新隨同在職人員的心奉調整並且停止所得替代率逐年降低。在這邊也懇請所有的委員能夠來支持這個提案。謝謝。"},{"start":3307.951,"end":3312.819,"text":"下一位請國民黨團代表林思明委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":3322.399,"end":3339.083,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們公務人員退休資遣撫卹法在107年7月1號施行其中第37條規定以退休公務人員之年金所得替代率最高75%最低45%而且自109年1月1號起每年再減少1.5%"},{"start":3345.504,"end":3360.815,"text":"逐年連續減少十年,直到所得替代率變為最高百分之六十,最低百分之三十。更規定年金至一百零七年的七月要起與在職人員的薪資脫鉤來調整。"},{"start":3364.478,"end":3379.794,"text":"這種臨時式的改革對為國家辛勤終生的公務人員實在是一種羞辱我們國家建立公務人員的退休撫卹制度它的要旨就是在維持我們退休公務人員"},{"start":3380.515,"end":3407.842,"text":"往年的基本生活善盡國家照顧我們年老的為國家一生奉獻的這些公務人員的生活也是國家的一個義務但是我們看到近年來物價指數不當的飆漲我們也知道老年後對醫療長照的費用也會更加增多會有更多的支出所以我們對於退休高齡者的影響可以說是日趨嚴重"},{"start":3409.431,"end":3432.659,"text":"公務人員一生為國家任勞任怨奉獻終身,維繫他們退休後的基本生活品質實在是有他的必要。因此國民黨團我們提案修正我們這一次的公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第37條將年金重新隨同在職人員的薪俸來做調整。"},{"start":3434.299,"end":3459.308,"text":"並自一百一十三年起停止所有所得替代力的逐年降低來保障我們退休公務人員的權益我們敬請各位委員支持本黨修法的提案以維護我們所有的退休公務人員退休後的生活能夠獲得穩定的保障以上謝謝好謝謝現在我們請張智倫委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3474.653,"end":3501.979,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早主席各位同仁有鑒於公務人員退休撫卹條之前撫卹條例自一百零七年一月一號實行其中第三十七條規定以退休人員的年金所得替代率大砍百分之十五最高百分之七十五最低百分之四十五且一百零九年一月一號起每年還要再減少一點五連續減少十年直到所得替代率"},{"start":3503.379,"end":3529.509,"text":"最高60%,最低30%。而且又規定年金自107年7月1日起與在職人員的薪俸調整脫鉤也就是說退休人員所領的退休金不再隨在職人員的條薪額同步調整導致退休金被雙重削減以及最近各項民生物資節節上漲"},{"start":3531.21,"end":3553.911,"text":"通貨膨脹的結果導致退休金的實質購買率下降在層層剝削下恐使退休人員的晚年生活堪慮國家未盡照顧退休人員晚年生活的義務忽視信賴保護原則甚至進一步引發嚴重的社會問題以上種種都有待修法討論改善"},{"start":3555.532,"end":3567.377,"text":"因此本席擬具公務人員退休撫卹法第三條第八條及第37條條文修正草案已撫明虛。敬請各位同仁支持本席提案。謝謝。現在我們請黃建豪委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":3590.219,"end":3616.642,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員我想近年來物價通膨非常嚴重基本工資近年來調整百分之四以上現值軍工教條性百分之四那國民年金也調整超過百分之七顯示說這個物價波動對國人生活的影響非常非常的重大那想過去呢這個在調漲的這部分唯獨缺了退休軍工教人員但是我們要強調一件事情現代的物價波動"},{"start":3617.623,"end":3645.424,"text":"不是這些退休軍公教人員造成的政府理論上要照顧的話應該照顧全民退休軍公教人員理論上也包含在所謂全民的範圍之內所以本期這次提出的是公務人員退休之前撫卹法的第六十七條的修正草案是修訂中央主計機關發布如果消費者物價指數累計成長率達到正負百分之五的時候應該在發布日起三月內予以調整認為把這個"},{"start":3646.865,"end":3668.824,"text":"條整變成法定的條件而不是由行政院或考試院自己來決定要不要調整我想物價指數上漲5%對我們所有在座所有人在內的生活一定會造成重大的衝擊所以說如果調漲5%但是軍工教人員的他們已經沒有其他的謀生能力的情況下面他退休金還是持續往下降的話"},{"start":3669.985,"end":3689.023,"text":"會對這些退休人士對我們所謂的這些國民生活造成很大很大的影響所以本席這日提出六十七條修正就是希望能夠補齊這一塊我們希望政府在照顧全民的時候不應該獨漏退休軍工教育委員所以本次修法也希望所有委員能夠支持本席這次的修法以上謝謝接下來請徐議貞委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3702.326,"end":3727.34,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位同仁大家好當我們回顧台灣的這個發展歷史公務人員的貢獻無可抹滅他們是國家政策的執行者同時也是推動十大建設建設高速公路以及打造護國神山的重要角色他們的一生都奉獻給了國家卻在年華老去的時候面臨生活的壓力這不讓我們反思是否國家兌現了承諾呢"},{"start":3729.962,"end":3746.756,"text":"從2018年年改以來現在的公務人員退伏法第三十七條及第六十七條的規定讓退休軍公教人員的生活越發困難替代類於逐年遞減跟限職人員的調整掛鉤再加上消費者物價指數累積成長達5%才能夠調整退休所得的高門檻使得他們難以應對生活成本的攀升"},{"start":3755.023,"end":3777.231,"text":"近年來物價飛漲通膨平破2%的警戒線這些曾經為國家努力的英雄卻在晚年因政策僵化而無法獲得他們應有的保障甚至被貼上米蟲的污名令人痛心本席提出修法是希望為他們找回公平與尊嚴修正第37條將退休所得隨同在職"},{"start":3781.833,"end":3794.524,"text":"人員的薪資調整重新掛鉤並停止逐年下降所得替代率的規定。收政第67條將交費者物價指數累積正成長的調整門檻從5%降成2%並規定至少每兩年檢討一次。這些修正更能有效地反映經濟現實減輕退休軍工教人員的生活壓力也展現國家對他們的承諾與關懷。"},{"start":3809.717,"end":3829.651,"text":"或許有人會質疑財政壓力但我們必須認識到退休軍工教人員不僅是歷史的見證者更是國家成就的建設者他們的付出不能被忽視他們的權益應該被珍惜如果國家不能善待這些曾經的奉獻者將如何吸引下一代人投入公務體系"},{"start":3830.612,"end":3857.406,"text":"如何維護國家長久的穩定發展?」這次的修法是替政府守住過去的承諾我們希望透過這次的修法告訴每一位曾經為台灣付出的公務人員你們的努力國家沒有忘記你們的貢獻值得會回報所以在這邊也希望我們所有的委員大家能夠支持我的提案讓每一位公務人員都能在國家的庇護下擁有一個無憂的晚年謝謝"},{"start":3860.326,"end":3863.747,"text":"副副長副長副長"},{"start":3890.717,"end":3911.047,"text":"主席各位委員大家早我想部裡面針對這一次的提案有提交一份完整的書面報告不過也提交一個更簡單的這個簡要版的一個口頭說明那我想我就簡單就這個簡要版的口頭說明跟大家做報告我想這整個退休制度改革從開始建立以來84年開始建立以來其實就碰到一些財務上的問題所以過去從"},{"start":3914.409,"end":3915.93,"text":"撫卹法第九十五條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3930.18,"end":3934.322,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":3948.929,"end":3976.419,"text":"所以過去這幾年總共役注了這個基金2774億然後再加上退服新制完以後這新制以後又撥補了294億那造成我們財務的一個狀況年度的收支比從本來失衡到去年112年已經變成是有平衡了98.6%那接下來因此我們基金可以投資的淨值從107年的5600億左右增加到去年大概一兆"},{"start":3977.479,"end":4004.329,"text":"投資報酬率也因此差不多到7點多%所以也造成我們財務我們現在雖然是2.9兆的未償還負債可是因為估算這些財政投資基金的一個更多的資金進來以後我們會讓五十年裡面的財務缺口降到1.8兆我想這是先跟各位委員做說明至於這一次很多委員提案的這個主要修正大概有六個主要的主題"},{"start":4005.129,"end":4005.529,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":4023.499,"end":4028.961,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":4050.23,"end":4056.953,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":4078.36,"end":4079.461,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4097.358,"end":4110.773,"text":"四點五八萬也比較高那比勞保跟勞退加起來錢也比較高所以如果再停止調降其實這個我想這個數字應該會更高那第二個修法的一個方式希望恢復為跟"},{"start":4112.283,"end":4135.135,"text":"限職人員待遇調整做聯動。當初修法的意義,其實這是符合國際的一個潮流,因為所有的退休金,退休人員的退休金在全世界都是跟著CPI來做考量的一個聯動,不是跟限職人員。目前把它入法進去以後,現在已經入法了,所以它對退休人員來講絕對有保障,雖然現在是正負5%,"},{"start":4136.215,"end":4146.621,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條"},{"start":4165.936,"end":4166.076,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":4190.319,"end":4211.64,"text":"那我想其他的一些建議的主題我想就請各位參考那最後因為年金改革當初107年是透過一個社會共識的一個機制來召開那我想這一次我知道委員會有一些提案說是不是我們再重新來討論一次那我想重新討論一次我們建議是不是也可以再考慮再跟社會做更多的一個對話跟共識這樣一個方式謝謝"},{"start":4212.701,"end":4229.355,"text":"那我這邊再宣告一下就是說因為我們一開始就有提到說因為今天現在已經高達60幾位委員有登記發言那因為時間的關係我們不針對任何人就是麻煩各位委員在發言的時候注意一下時間那下一位我們麻煩請蘇仁市長進行報告"},{"start":4235.349,"end":4251.874,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生。今天貴委員會舉行本會期第18次的委員會議（併案審查公務人員退休撫卹法及公務人員任用法相關修正條文草案本人應邀列起報告深感榮幸謹就下列提案。"},{"start":4252.898,"end":4259.806,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":4273.666,"end":4298.267,"text":"那剛才部長也有提到說假如一個年金改革我們已經進行到六七年的這個階段要來去做審視我想當初成立的時候我們也花很多的時間凝聚整個社會的共識假如要去做這樣的一個變革我這裡會期待說我們是不是可以透過一些跟社會對話還有舉辦公聽會的一個方式"},{"start":4301.997,"end":4321.504,"text":"最後關於任用法部分李委員所提的修正任用法第36條之一及翁委員提案修正任用法28條之一的部分我想我們總署會尊重大宴的一個審議結果以上報告請各位委員參考指教謝謝那個區域機關齁如果"},{"start":4329.896,"end":4335.661,"text":"提出書面報告機關,如果沒有口頭補充的話,那所提書面的內容都列入公報記錄。"},{"start":4351.349,"end":4362.96,"text":"那如果有程序發言的話那就時間我們想說時間三分鐘因為今天太多人了了解了解我會盡量的啦謝謝非常謝謝主席謝謝召委還有所有的委員都來關心這個議題"},{"start":4364.406,"end":4386.324,"text":"那剛剛我們從一段時間就聽了幾乎每一位提案委員上來說他們表達了對於年金改革經過這六七年來分分各界都有一些不同的聲音那其實民主社會多元意見本來就是正常而且民意是滾動的這我也完全的認同所以民意代表的天職"},{"start":4387.345,"end":4395.652,"text":"就是根據自己選區選民的托付來反映他的心聲所以今天我覺得司法委員會這樣對年金制度報告來做一個檢討而各種提案的內容我覺得也都各自有它所利潤的依據那因此我覺得剛剛聽到有好幾個議題都值得我們細細來來發揮"},{"start":4409.523,"end":4410.704,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":4427.498,"end":4450.277,"text":"事務委員會討論一共17次全國的分區座談辦了4次精算報告來立法院做了6次的報告甚至最後還有一個由總統要求的辦了一個國事會議所以我們發現年金改革因為牽動的相關人士不管是軍公教甚至有人提到勞工甚至到甚至在納稅的這些納稅人還有"},{"start":4453.879,"end":4472.035,"text":"將近數十萬在職的公務人員他們都非常關心那麼年金改革不是只關心到現在正在你年金的退休人員因為年金啊他是一個大水庫是由現在的在職人員他們持續的去挹注而政府呢在過去也都有不斷的在進行"},{"start":4472.675,"end":4486.525,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":4501.156,"end":4522.764,"text":"復養小孩,那爸爸媽媽公務員有這樣的一個在公務人員的服務辦法上給予他這樣的一個便利那麼如果是祖父母阿公阿嬤可不可以我覺得這個也很值得討論因為現在呢隔代教養啊也相當的一個普遍那麼為了鼓勵我們國家教養下一代這樣的提案的內容呢都很值得我們來討論那麼鑑於啊本會期是預算會期"},{"start":4525.945,"end":4529.547,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":4549.998,"end":4569.392,"text":"實際上似乎還有待繼續加強那是否我們未來在預算審議送出委員之後我們可能預計按照草野協商到1月21號之前我們繼續會有研會那麼研會的期間可不可以就我們年金改革重大議題我們持續的來辦理公聽會那麼我在這邊也做個預告因為作為"},{"start":4575.536,"end":4586,"text":"草案（一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資�"},{"start":4595.143,"end":4605.707,"text":"就是對今天的年金改革多達20個以上的法案我們來邀請各界來進行討論我在這裡也來呼籲我們是不是請吳昭偉現在的主席也能夠在完成預算審議之後我們來排定充裕的時間來邀請社會各界來辦理公聽會總而言之我們強調雖然是預算審議會期我們依法要在年底之前至少在委員會部分我們努力的完成我們該進的各機關的公務預算的審查"},{"start":4624.915,"end":4646.574,"text":"那麼至於重大的年金法案的修改我覺得為著因應這個最新的民意我們滾動式的來調整過去就主張五年後就要檢討一次在去年那根據去年檢討的結果未來這個制度怎麼去進行可長可久的調整本席都非常的贊成也在這裡懇請呼籲在程序上我們今天的主席非常的好"},{"start":4647.054,"end":4647.674,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具〈公務人員退休資遣〉"},{"start":4665.393,"end":4682.15,"text":"我知道我先再稍微念一下剛舉手的有陳俊宇委員、張立雄委員、吳世耀委員還有羅志強委員那是不是如果說接下來這四位發言完畢之後如果還有人想要成立法院用登記的方式不然我怕會亂掉大家都不知道誰先誰後"},{"start":4686.444,"end":4709.351,"text":"對對對所以我剛說的這四位發言之外如果還有人想要發言的是我們用登記的方式才不會很混亂好那就麻煩那個王毅昌委員來登記那我們現在馬上先請那個陳俊委員進行發言"},{"start":4728.276,"end":4755.673,"text":"主席我們各位列席的各單位的首長還有我們在座各位的委員同仁各位媒體先進大家早安那我們今天這個司法法制委員會排審退伏法條的這個相關內容的一個修正那將會衝擊到現行這個年金制度我想政府對於公務人員的一個照顧不論是現職或是已退休的這個人員都應該要兼顧"},{"start":4757.655,"end":4785.594,"text":"建權公務人員的一個退休制度更是不分黨派歷任的政府都想完成這個目標。多年前因為有這個月退的這個制度支領這個年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題的一個存在導致退伏基金收支嚴重的一個失衡那出現財務的缺口更面臨提早用慶的一個危機"},{"start":4786.374,"end":4802.742,"text":"直到2016年蔡英文總統上任之後開始推動軍公教的年金改革的相關工作從制度面的著手針對制度來設計根本性的問題處理以改善年金的體質"},{"start":4804.892,"end":4828.005,"text":"同時在和社會溝通的過程中也歷經了一番的努力極力尋求體諒和支持終於在立法院審議通過之後在2018年完成了讓年金永續改革的一個方案以確保基金餘額能維持一個時代30年不用慶的一個目標穩定延續下去"},{"start":4828.965,"end":4857.324,"text":"對於這個退撫基金財務的壓力舒緩國家整體財政的一個健全都有顯著的一個改善而今天我們要審查20個版本的這個退撫法相關的草案大多都遠離當初改革的一個方向不但會讓年金改革的這個效果大打折扣對退撫基金的一個運作也會有很大的一個影響我們對於這個制度的變革必須是以一個長遠"},{"start":4859.425,"end":4880.521,"text":"的未來來做規劃也要對歷史來負責對於公務人員退休的生活保障和退府基金的一個永續要一併來重視同時我們也要重視社會世代和正義正義和公平性橫憑兼顧在制度內的相關每一個族群同時也要重視"},{"start":4882.369,"end":4899.489,"text":"每一個世代公務人員都能夠領得到而且要持續領領到勞而且要有保障我相信這才是最重要的也是政府要讓年金制度具有合理性健全性永續性所期待的一個重大目標"},{"start":4900.47,"end":4923.342,"text":"所以年金制度的這個變革會影響跨世代的相關權益務必要以最審慎的這種態度來面對所以我們還是主張在審查前要召開公聽會廣納民間專家學者的相關意見也讓列席的相關部會有更充分的一個機會來檢視改革這幾年的一個具體成效"},{"start":4924.142,"end":4937.734,"text":"切莫讓得來不易的這種改革成果成為政治考量之下短期利益的一個犧牲品我希望我們各位委員應該對於這個部分要來多加重視好以上"},{"start":4940.197,"end":4940.758,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4957.93,"end":4960.271,"text":"賴主席,各位在場美女朋友還有列席的一個官員我們各位"},{"start":4987.757,"end":4994.124,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":5010.305,"end":5024.963,"text":"什麼原因造成因為繳得少然後呢退得早領得多就像火車掉下懸崖不改革或言下兩屆總統這句話誰都可能比較沒印象羅志祥委員應該印象會特別深刻"},{"start":5026.064,"end":5034.587,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":5051.374,"end":5075.144,"text":"到底公務人員所有的退休的一個撫卹全部由國家來負責全部由國家來負責那當然就是全民來負責這是不是一個好方法這當然也是一個好方法那還是由基金這個退撫基金的一個成員他的主體就是由現職的公務人員"},{"start":5076.325,"end":5076.545,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":5106.625,"end":5116.875,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":5130.305,"end":5131.586,"text":"二（委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":5150.424,"end":5175.504,"text":"他們願不願意再多出因為他要多領嘛那這個基金裡面的一個主體這個活水要注入進去的是現在的還在職的公務人員退休的人要多領那現在在職的公務人員他願不願意再去提高他的提撥率我想過去啊N幾次啊那現在啊共同提撥制啊"},{"start":5176.925,"end":5200.908,"text":"這三號大好官會議解釋也許大好官大家都蠻討厭尤其在國民黨的好朋友們你市制第781號市制第782號跟市制第783號裡面啊那個講得很清楚啊所謂政府要負最後的責任不是說誰大家都不用去繳錢大家都不用負責任政府不用去負任何的一個改革"},{"start":5202.298,"end":5202.578,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":5223.413,"end":5233.769,"text":"這個可能要好好的來跟社會上做一個對話啦所以我建議啊這一些其實都可以討論都可以討論保障公務人員又可以讓年金不破產"},{"start":5234.895,"end":5240.398,"text":"這個其實才是正辦,所以我也在這邊建議好議題那也過去在整個在修法的時候也很多受到波及的人也上了街頭表達他們自己的心聲那你重新因為說我們已經經過改革已經省了兩千多億了所以呢都已經省了兩千多億了所以我們再來走回頭路我們就大把大把的鈔票就把它花下去沒關係也可以"},{"start":5263.849,"end":5264.269,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5284.215,"end":5307.655,"text":"我這邊先會宣告一下那待會在第一輪的那個程序發言是到羅志強委員結束那王一川委員開始是會議詢問那在羅志強委員發完畢之後我們休息五分鐘然後我們再緊接著進行會議詢問好接下來請吳世耀委員進行程序發言"},{"start":5316.617,"end":5340.917,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我想高齡少子化是國際的趨勢所以各國都在進行年金改革那各國的經驗可以供給台灣做參考年金改革上路之後各國可不可以再審視再改革的需求再檢視的必要當然可以"},{"start":5341.738,"end":5350.183,"text":"所以說不管是希臘或是法國他們都在2010年第一次啟動了年金改革然後法國在2014第二次的改革希臘2016第二次的改革然後兩個國家同樣在2023年也就是去年進行了年金改革的第二次審視"},{"start":5371.083,"end":5398.49,"text":"為什麼各國還要再審視年改因為高齡少子化政府的財政負擔如果一直持續的來提供退休公務同仁那麼各國的財政都面臨非常大的風險所以各個國家對於年改一改二改三改的共同趨勢是什麼是越改越嚴"},{"start":5400.202,"end":5427.765,"text":"而今天台灣在野黨委員啟動再行的審視可以但是是朝越改越鬆讓年改走回頭路這就跟國際的經驗跟我們可以預判的國家財政的狀況是大為失衡所以可以審視法案但是要慎重"},{"start":5428.857,"end":5454.514,"text":"我們看看過去馬英九時期也曾經啟動過年改他在2012年2013年的時候我手上的這個新聞稿我想羅志強委員當時就是馬英九總統的副秘書長這一場新聞稿發布也可能出自您的手我不知道您一定有參與這是2013年1月30號您就是那時候的副秘書長"},{"start":5459.378,"end":5473.713,"text":"馬英九時期啟動的年改召開的全國性座談會有124場年金改革座談會還有邀請20位立委出席27個場次"},{"start":5476.055,"end":5491.431,"text":"蔡英文總統在啟動年改的時候我們也召開了20場的公聽會然後呢我說的是年改總統府的公聽會有20場然後北中南東再加上全國性的會議共5場也就是20加5"},{"start":5494.798,"end":5495.258,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":5524.718,"end":5542.1,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 令每一個服務國家勞力從工的公務同仁都領得到退休金。那麼現役的公務同仁包括今天坐在現場這麼多辛苦的公務同仁我們要確保每一位的"},{"start":5543.055,"end":5549.861,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":5567.057,"end":5583.64,"text":"不要忘了馬英九時期124場的討論會蔡英文時期是25場的全國討論那現在2024的立法院我們希望惠據社會共識我們嚴肅來討論謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言搞了半天今天原來是馬維拉大會啊"},{"start":5596.175,"end":5620.152,"text":"原來馬總統已經當了十年總統都沒卸任啦民進黨這麼懷念他剛剛什麼程序發言全部都在做實質討論我跟主席報告我的程序發言只是一個點為什麼程序發言都變實質討論但沒關係啦民進黨現在程序發言當實質討論也是文化了我就比照民進黨的說法只有一個點叫公聽會其他都是實質討論對不對"},{"start":5623.069,"end":5636.597,"text":"通通都實質討論來我跟各位講首先我要跟我們吳思瑤來跟你回應一下講到馬英九抱歉我也支持年金改革啊莊瑞雄講了已經砍了兩千億不夠嗎砍了兩千億不夠嗎不夠他剛剛講的他說不夠啊你已經把公務人員的血肉刨光我們現在只是卑微的拜託你們把公務員的骨跟筋留著而已啦"},{"start":5653.783,"end":5654.324,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":5667.534,"end":5669.295,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":5691.129,"end":5718.01,"text":"老保也有破產跟財務負擔的問題啊但我主張政府負擔最終責任跟賴清德總統一樣啊我還主張入法民進黨還不敢主張入法由立法保障政府對老保最終財務責任但是今天大家看看遇到老保財務負擔的問題民進黨跟你講政府不會倒遇到公務人員退休金的財務問題就講政府會倒啊"},{"start":5719.192,"end":5721.773,"text":"這不叫雙標?什麼叫雙標?我今天在這邊最看不過去的就是今天民進黨吳思瑤手上拿的那個保障公務員的牌子吳思瑤拿的保障公務員的牌子我跟你講什麼叫做啃你鼓喝你血還拍拍你說我愛你這就是民進黨啦啃你血吸你鼓來拍拍說我愛你"},{"start":5748.28,"end":5773.559,"text":"然後說我是要保障你然後呢就跟民進黨吳思瑤領導的民進黨立法院黨團今天聲援尹錫悅的戒嚴民進黨還跟你講說這叫做捍衛自由民主憲政兩手策略無以復加這就是吳思瑤啊這就是民進黨啊不就是嗎那我要跟各位講再來講下一個問題"},{"start":5775.711,"end":5800.146,"text":"今天你要動勞保你要動年改你要動任何的東西你起碼民進黨政府做到一件事情你不要浪費嘛你跟我講那些軍公教你從75砍到67.5你還要喊破產政府每年超徵稅收三千億四千億"},{"start":5802.087,"end":5814.49,"text":"稅務超徵難道不是從納稅人手上拿到的錢難道不是政府財務的一部分更重要的是今天民進黨你不要再跟我講政府財務的問題你今天你們在大大小小光最近就業安定基金發生的問題是什麼有沒有看到都不長眼都沒看到就是被民進黨的官員拿去浪費當作小金庫"},{"start":5830.084,"end":5853.299,"text":"包括光電的弊案動輒上億動輒十億甚至動搖國本我揭發的光電案400億的罰款400億的所謂的短購的利益民進黨也是這樣子拱手讓給光電的廠商啊你超徵稅收你浪費現在你跟我講說你要來砍公務員我直接告訴大家"},{"start":5859.417,"end":5883.231,"text":"今天民進黨從頭到尾就瞧不起公務員你們背後支撐你們的全部都是公務員但是你們著手踐踏公務員尊嚴霸凌案傳到這種程度你們還有臉嗎我當過公務員兩年啊我沒有見識到這麼恐怖的霸凌啊我即便工作辛苦主管管對我們都是感謝跟肯定啊當你們執政"},{"start":5886.977,"end":5914.3,"text":"叫公務員升登演講叫公務員下跪道歉叫公務員你們去死都你偉大的民進黨會出現的事情踐踏公務員尊嚴再削奪公務員退休保障我最後再講一件事情我請今天民進黨告訴我啊你一班公務員你們今天瞧不起踐踏難道連警察、消防、海巡、空總跟移民署的危險勤務人員你們今天也要擋嗎?"},{"start":5915.768,"end":5939.454,"text":"我直接把今天大家養嘛我剛剛有直接跟主席報告啦前面全部超時我今天也忍不了我也要來超時為什麼反正民進黨今天打算用冗長發言就是要拖死公務員拖死警察拖死消防人員拖死工種拖死移民署拖死海巡他今天我跟你保證他們就拖到底所有的內容一模一樣"},{"start":5941.264,"end":5964.945,"text":"十個二十個三十個講的都一模一樣的話請所有公教人員請所有警察消防海巡空總跟移民署的辛苦的人員今天一整天看著司法法制委員會民進黨是怎麼樣在踐踏你們用發言冗長的方式拖延一時的程序的方式在踐踏你們"},{"start":5966.563,"end":5976.652,"text":"還跟我講馬英九你們有臉講馬總統主張年金改革也沒有叫你們刀刀入骨啊砍兩千億不夠砍到什麼時候謝謝好謝謝那我們就依照剛剛的那個宣告就先休息五分鐘因為我們剛剛有講啊"},{"start":5993.772,"end":6000.414,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":6014.478,"end":6041.257,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":6043.243,"end":6056.848,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":6074.241,"end":6079.244,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":6091.647,"end":6096.114,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6114.738,"end":6134.09,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6136.745,"end":6138.799,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7453.697,"end":7475.787,"text":"好我們繼續開會那接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好主席各位先進今天聽完國民黨的立委每個人講的都很有道理"},{"start":7477.601,"end":7498.373,"text":"爲了這個公務人員爭取相關的權益,尤其是退休公務員的權益保障。都很好,這個都非常的好。非常的好,就是剛才說的一些數字,國民黨說的數字,今天我們這全序部說的,人家現在堆不起來,可能會各說各話。"},{"start":7504.309,"end":7509.553,"text":"而所謂的東西推算到現在也不一定一樣,而公務人員當時要推動的,現在也不知道他當時在那時候成功,觀眾那時候推動成功,到底這破產的幾年,現在也不知道。而他剛才委員說這個公務人員不錯,所以公務人員的版本是現在來算起來到底如何,也不知道。"},{"start":7535.558,"end":7545.744,"text":"我們全市府說這個如果這樣做的話會提早幾年幾年這數字我看也要叫一些學者專家再來比對一下所以我是建議這樣主席我們這個會因為這個案很多然後這個大家想的方法根本沒什麼人因為實施一段時間那對這個退休公務員實質"},{"start":7563.713,"end":7566.295,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":7593.445,"end":7601.867,"text":"還是要開公聽會,叫一些學者專家厲害關係人,現在在做公務人員的六職等的、九職等的、十二職等的代表來講,叫他們退休的,叫他們來講一下說,這已經年金改革了,我本地這全市部我一場說,我現在每年拿多少,世界上我現在拿多少,這避一下,現在若是說改革改革改革,改革要往前進,又走回頭路,"},{"start":7623.231,"end":7623.471,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":7639.161,"end":7643.164,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．"},{"start":7667.574,"end":7669.016,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文宣告"},{"start":7685.314,"end":7685.634,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":7711.58,"end":7720.273,"text":"公務人員退休資遣 事反責嚴謝謝王委員 下一位我們請鍾瑞雄委員"},{"start":7732.622,"end":7755.939,"text":"謝謝張委我們在場所有的委員各位媒體朋友這個是一個很棘手的一個問題啦剛剛我也聽了羅志強委員的一番的一個發言慷慨激昂啦但是這個過程裡面情緒又波動了這個社會又要波動了但是該面對的還是要去面對我很誠懇的來講我相信過去從蔡英文時代"},{"start":7756.92,"end":7759.362,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7780.12,"end":7794.529,"text":"我也去注意到中國國民黨的黨主席朱立倫先生去提到說這違反了信賴保護原則但是我必須要再講此言真的是差異除非你要把整個制度全部都砸爛掉"},{"start":7796.69,"end":7810.075,"text":"不然各位去看一看不管是大法官4至781號談到的軍人的年改或者說4至第782號的公務人員的一個年改或者說4至第783號裡面的教師的年改都有去碰到一個問題就是說三個退伍保障的相關法規範裡面"},{"start":7817.478,"end":7819.901,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7836.218,"end":7836.478,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":7853.178,"end":7861.4,"text":"撫卹法第七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬"},{"start":7882.585,"end":7883.026,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":7899.628,"end":7925.083,"text":"再重新做一個最後的一個役助那又涉及到全國納稅醫務人所以這個議題其實好好的來做一個公聽好好的做一個討論可以大家心平氣和來做一個討論倒不是壞事我們過去常常在談的就是所謂的世代的一個正義那這一些到底是符不符合重新再來檢視一次我倒覺得在立法院裡面本來就是可以來討論以上謝謝"},{"start":7928.51,"end":7928.79,"text":"草案案件"},{"start":7938.294,"end":7939.935,"text":"草案（立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":7964.42,"end":7966.242,"text":"當時106年在年改的過程當中其實時空、環境、背景都跟現在完全不一樣了"},{"start":7983.442,"end":7984.143,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":8000.097,"end":8019.324,"text":"現在環境跟106年不一樣現在也不是說我們在討論這些版本我們就反對年改它是持續在調整當中但是怎麼樣的一個調整的方向跟方式是都兼顧到各級層面的我希望朝野黨派可以靜下心來大家好好思考"},{"start":8020.004,"end":8047.478,"text":"這一次包括物價指數從當時106年的時候其實也已經調整了10%以上所以我認為不是不能討論而是我們來了解一下改革經過這麼一段時間我們軍公教員面臨現在生活的挑戰基於過去對國家的奉獻還有基於過去政府對他們信賴保護原則我們是不是有再一次看看哪裡可以調整的必要性這是第一點"},{"start":8048.038,"end":8066.761,"text":"第二點我今天還有另外一個版本就是公務人員的派用辦法民國五六十年我們任用了一批公務人員派遣辦法那當時是那要他們來去配合我們現在做重要的公共建設我舉一個例子來說現在台北市捷運局現在有高達61%是派用人員那現在還在任的有46人但是還有20人還未滿60歲"},{"start":8075.583,"end":8086.78,"text":"但是這些人因為派遣派用辦法已經達到落日條款所以這些人現在這些單位裡面是升不上去但是新的活水也進不來導致現在在各縣市很多派用人員"},{"start":8091.246,"end":8103.4,"text":"其實留在原職然後新的有能力的上來其實也接不上來因為上面這些人其實因為落日條款已經在那邊所以我覺得對於有一些單位人力的老化職務的久任對於機關的長遠的發展絕對不是好事"},{"start":8107.424,"end":8127.589,"text":"所以我了解各縣市或多或少都有一些狀況那我也非常感謝全市部我們提出來這個派用辦法公務人員任用辦法的調整那全市部尊重本院的提案那我們也希望透過今天我的提案跟好幾位委員不同黨派的提案我希望這個部分能有機會來進入實質的懲罰"},{"start":8130.25,"end":8146.897,"text":"審查。當然我剛剛聽到好幾位委員說是不是要再聽公聽會再辦公聽會那我想這個部分尊重召委的決定但是我們還是希望立院其實有機會討論其實時間其實非常有限所以我們也希望今天討論"},{"start":8148.558,"end":8148.878,"text":"稍後請吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":8174.826,"end":8202.997,"text":"謝謝主席我後面還有登記發言剛剛主席說希望我們多做會議詢問所以首先我想要表達的是我認為我們在現場的每一位立法委員我們都沒有資格來當全台灣軍公教人員的代言人剛剛柳志強委員的發言我相當的不認同他進到公務體系的時候一進去就總統府的高官"},{"start":8204.093,"end":8230.53,"text":"因為我個人我的外公過去在溫州就是小學老師在戰爭以前被分發來台灣教書那後來戰爭了就沒有辦法回去所以就留在台灣繼續擔任小學老師那我的家庭裡面很多人也耳濡目染也通過了國家的考試成為教師成為公務員我們家人裡面也有基層的軍人"},{"start":8233.032,"end":8261.072,"text":"所以軍公教的年金改革對我個人來說這不只是關乎國家的社會正義公平正義、世代正義也是關乎我自己家人我們的生命的受到的改變那我的家人裡面在當初從105年國家組成年金改革委員會的時候其實大家社會已經有非常多的討論了"},{"start":8262.731,"end":8263.172,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":8275.029,"end":8301.942,"text":"很多都是在公部門裡面服務大家最關心的事情是年金能不能維持世代正義今天國民黨的委員提出了20個版本要終止年金改革這個是在霸凌現職現在還在在院的全台灣36萬的公務員為什麼因為年金當年如果沒有進行改革的話它已經破產了"},{"start":8303.423,"end":8306.464,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":8323.831,"end":8325.912,"text":"請務必不要把年金改革當成一個政黨黨派鬥爭的議題我們要去思考的是這個國家下一個30年下一個50年我們整體的公務體系的公務人員是不是能夠去保障他未來的退休金"},{"start":8344.545,"end":8368.381,"text":"以實務來說因為我自己家人很多也是有收到年金的這個退休退休金的改革實務來說全序部也給我們數字了現在的這個退休領到的月退七成都是高於五萬元這個其實高於民間的平均薪資4.58萬也高於民間的勞保勞退3.75萬所以"},{"start":8375.509,"end":8394.274,"text":"我們應該去想到我們本院大院韓國瑜院長想的那句話:「莫忘世上苦人多。」年金改革我們要持續進行因為我們必須要保障下一個世代全台灣基層的軍公教他們的退休金"},{"start":8395.494,"end":8423.688,"text":"絕對不能終止年改讓年金的破產第二我們也要去關心關乎我們整體台灣的社會正義所以我希望我希望年金改革已經經過國家年改委員會各方的意見各方的專家的討論我根本的認為國民黨這些委員28個版本的提案都應該要撤案"},{"start":8424.568,"end":8440.232,"text":"你們才在這邊討論才是在霸凌公務員才是在浪費大家的時間我希望大家可以回到我們國家整體的財政保障公務員的福利來思考不要再把年金當成政治操作鬥爭的議題謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":8451.931,"end":8478.642,"text":"謝謝主席我二度發言年金改革不走回頭路世代正義不能開倒車今天走回頭明天就後悔所以說呢我想非常嚴肅我們在面對年金改革是否要檢視當然可以檢視我第一輪發言的時候也說世界各國也在檢視年金改革但是世界各國是越改越嚴"},{"start":8479.682,"end":8507.889,"text":"因為高齡少子化財政面對的問題都迫使各國更加的讓年改越走越嚴而台灣是要越走越寬嗎我在這裡具體的要求除了我們要顧及所有相關當事人利害關係人的權益也就是退休公務員的聲音要聽退休公務員的權益要顧我都支持"},{"start":8508.729,"end":8532.686,"text":"但是現役公務員的聲音乃至於下一代公務員的權益我們一定要兼顧所以我們需要公聽會今天就全序部所提出來的六大主題是分別聚焦於這一次修法會衍生的六個嚴肅的課題所以我具體的主張六場公聽會能夠很細緻的針對每一個"},{"start":8536.989,"end":8555.195,"text":"因為修法而必須嚴肅討論的課題來充分討論讓所有的利害相關者除了退休公務員歡迎來發聲但是現役公務員的聲音我們也不能偏聽所以我具體主張六個主題的公聽會大有必要"},{"start":8556.195,"end":8573.685,"text":"另外除了權益面要考慮我們也要來考量財務面現在有個新生課題就是在野黨同樣提出的財政收支劃分法如果審查通過以現在的版本是從國庫會挖走6612億"},{"start":8578.328,"end":8586.852,"text":"我們今天看到的資料就幾年來年改上路6年來我們合計挹注了退府基金3068億而當中2774億是從年改端結而來的基金"},{"start":8595.675,"end":8601.558,"text":"但是當中這兩年2023、2024政府額外撥補了294億才讓他的水位可以拉到3068億然後延後基金破產的年限但是現在如果財化法修了"},{"start":8613.524,"end":8638.062,"text":"中央的財務又面臨非常大的強害的時候還有辦法連年來撥補挹注嗎所以財政面我們也要求在公聽的過程邀請財政專家一起來討論因為沒有錢這些退休金都沒有辦法獲得國家的保障"},{"start":8639.409,"end":8656.173,"text":"最後一點我有一個新的主張這個會期是預算會期在司法法制委員會中嘉賓委員已經排審了三個部會的預算完成詢答下週或下下週可望就進入預算的實質審查但是吳釗偉這邊負責的三個部會"},{"start":8663.274,"end":8676.04,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法"},{"start":8687.885,"end":8696.728,"text":"立委的功課要教還是要教作業要寫還是要寫所以說在有限的會議期程裡頭是不是能夠優先來審議我們的總預算案讓各個部會的總預算案能夠順利的完成審查之後再來逐案依社會的共識性依國家發展的需要來排定法案的審查"},{"start":8717.557,"end":8742.147,"text":"那就今天的主題二十個提案的年改走回頭路的修法顯然至少本期期待還有六場的公聽會那麼我們有限的期程有辦法在這個會期來審查今天的法案嗎所以我希望說就時程的安排上大家先把該寫的功課寫完"},{"start":8742.907,"end":8749.231,"text":"然後讓預算完成審查是我們這個會期重要的工作所以我非常期待等一下昭緯在這一輪的會議詢問或者是程序發言之後能夠針對我們共同的主張先公聽再審查能夠做出具體的回應也希望昭緯未來在盤案的過程我們優先讓總預算完成審查再進行其他法案的審議這應當是朝野高度的共識也懇請昭緯能夠接受我的建議謝謝"},{"start":8774.113,"end":8774.636,"text":"沈博洋委員"},{"start":8786.452,"end":8805.012,"text":"謝謝主席我還是針對因為我是會議詢問所以還是針對一些程序問題來我很贊成剛剛吳斯特委員以及吳佩儀委員講到的要嘛就是撤案要嘛就是公聽會但是我還是必須要表達一下我的一個立場就是我個人其實覺得非常的感動"},{"start":8806.153,"end":8824.611,"text":"為什麼會這樣子呢?就是因為從上個會期一直到現在其實國民黨和民眾黨一直在去審查還有去通過一些直接違憲的法案或者破壞我們國家安全的法案所以我們只好一天到晚就是要為了維護這一個國家的安全而不斷的去提到"},{"start":8824.991,"end":8825.712,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":8842.525,"end":8858.65,"text":"從上個禮拜我們看到高金對於這個原名組織法直接把這個威權時代相關的議案往後排然後呢直接不予討論然後呢在原名裡面的組織做了什麼事情只要不是我的人就給我全部變成無極職"},{"start":8859.89,"end":8879.745,"text":"不是我的人就不准給我領薪水就直接提出這樣的提案只要照顧他自己的人這樣對他們來講才叫正義所以呢我們今天看到一模一樣的年金也在做一樣的事情只有我國民黨認定的公務員才叫公務員我國民黨不認定的公務員就不叫做公務員"},{"start":8880.726,"end":8896.064,"text":"原來的年金改革為什麼可能會破產最主要的原因就是因為他是犧牲現在的公務員犧牲最近正在即將要退休或者剛退休的公務員的錢去補什麼補國民黨喜歡的公務員"},{"start":8897.285,"end":8921.633,"text":"所以當國民黨口口聲聲的講說他是在為公務員為軍警謀福利的時候奇怪我剛剛在隔壁的時候並沒有看到相關的一些討論我們今天如果真的要去照顧的話不管是我們的軍人不管是我們的警察不管是他的一些家計還是一些現在相關的福利其實是最重要的不然的話一旦年金破產的話這些人會拿不到錢"},{"start":8922.993,"end":8948.021,"text":"所以我們在犧牲這些人的情況之下就只為了以前的不正義然後要把錢全部交給國民黨喜歡的人這不是很奇怪的一件事嗎但是呢我還是很高興能夠有這樣的機會我們有這樣的一個討論因為這就是一個內政的一個事務我們認為要照顧所有的公務員所有的軍人所有的警察"},{"start":8948.661,"end":8951.463,"text":"而國民黨只想照顧他們自己認定的人。」"},{"start":8978.661,"end":8979.182,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":9004.552,"end":9014.789,"text":"感謝主席給這個機會讓我們可以透過這個過程除了是詢問相關機關之外也可以做一些程序上或彼此對這個議題上的交流"},{"start":9015.461,"end":9044.245,"text":"那剛剛有恭臨了我們羅志強委員他的一些感觸那我也是一向認為啊在程序發言呢是就我們今天的議程來討論不過他剛剛提到一個我一定要來跟羅委員做個分享他說我們是站在年金改革站在這些使用年紀的對立面是嗎我們身邊的很多人受到年金改革的影響啊最直接的影響就是在年金改革之前退休的人"},{"start":9045.626,"end":9073.917,"text":"正好我的家庭我的雙親我的兩個姊姊他們都曾經做過老師國小老師或是國中代理教師家母跟家姐甚至是國小教師退休這當中最明顯的年金改革就是家母他很早就退休了在年金改革之前呢他84年之前的就職年資他依那時候的規定可以享有18%的優存"},{"start":9076.158,"end":9098.079,"text":"後來我進入立法院在2017年那時候我們參與了年金改革那時候家母已經退休一段時間了那麼家姐告訴我說因為每個月啊家母的領的年金呢都是家姐在打理的那我就問她那媽媽這樣子少領多少錢她告訴我大概萬把塊吧"},{"start":9099.557,"end":9126.883,"text":"所以我就從我自己的錢每個月就放到轉存到家姐那裡去他都用家母的年金來支付當時協助照顧的外籍看護那麼直到家母過世了那我才發現說原來他領的錢他都請我姐姐去捐那這個"},{"start":9129.881,"end":9149.779,"text":"家裡有年金改革的人受影響的人包括家姐他是年金改革後因為為了要照顧家母他提前辦退休所以呢他沒有去感受到改革前跟改革後那個落差那這一萬把塊的落差是他身在哪裡呢我後來就詢問了就是188的優存啊"},{"start":9153.168,"end":9181.038,"text":"怎麼說?我們年金改革之前在84年的就職年資在你年改之前退休的人員他你領的年金當中有相當的比例是用18%的優惠存款的優惠利率去換算來的所以當我們將所得替代率從八成百分之八十逐年下調的時候首先去拿掉的就是讓你的優存可領的優存利息的佔比越來越少"},{"start":9182.014,"end":9194.045,"text":"事實上按照公務人員他的本分去換算的年金在他的年金的占比當中其實是根本還沒有去砍到所以等於說"},{"start":9195.527,"end":9217.819,"text":"過去家母在年金改革前退休年金改革之後他少領的錢就是他在退休的時候他的退休金存在18%優存裡面所產生出來的那個金額那個金額誰在付那個利息誰在付剛巧我在擔任立法委員之前我在屏東縣我擔任副縣長我每年都要跟財主來討論我們的預算"},{"start":9221.121,"end":9230.949,"text":"我才赫然發現地方政府有一大筆錢預算支出是在支付從縣政府退休的人員18%優存的利差存在台灣銀行的利差表示說屏東縣政府的當時縣政府的直屬縣職人員輔本部的800多人但是退休的教師上千多人"},{"start":9244.042,"end":9257.546,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體"},{"start":9271.815,"end":9294.146,"text":"年改之後的退休人員呢就加解來說他在年改之後退休他所領的錢足以維持他的退休生活而且這個替代率的在下遞減啊其實以他的退休當時所領的年金還優於當年新進的教師許多"},{"start":9295.273,"end":9311.986,"text":"就一個奉獻教育崗位這麼多年的教師不是家母還是家姐還是所有全國的教育人員我都心存感激但是年輕改革最大的另外一個受益者是什麼在年改之後"},{"start":9313.237,"end":9337.718,"text":"年改之後尤其是八十四年沒有八十年之後的舊日年資年改之後這些公務人員他們這個年金可以延續到讓他們進入這個機關之後他未來可期待的退休的時候仍然有足夠的基金水位來維持他有尊嚴的生活所以作為一個年金改革受影響者的家庭"},{"start":9338.464,"end":9358.824,"text":"我要在這裡跟我們待會會發言的羅委員分享我們不是年金改革的敵人年金改革裡面沒有誰是敵人我們很多的親朋好友都是年金改革的受影響的人而且絕大部分是受益者絕大部分是受益者"},{"start":9359.949,"end":9384.79,"text":"所以我真的還要誠懇的呼籲大家在關心軍公教人員權益的時候要有一個永續的思維今天任何人進入公部門進入教育崗位為國奉獻為社會栽培人才他們的退休生活我們國家用制度性的保障說到制度性的保障18號的優存是當時年改的時候社會最不公平的來源因為他們有法律的依據"},{"start":9386.232,"end":9402.393,"text":"當年為什麼政府會發明這18%的優存呢?是因為當時的政府的財政沒有辦法支應公務人員足夠的退休金所以鼓勵他用半權退、半月退的方式把他半權退的錢拿到回來給政府周轉"},{"start":9404.212,"end":9431.104,"text":"母金留給政府周轉政府給你18%的優準付利息來補貼那時候公務人員微薄的薪資他的微薄的年金18%當年是存在有軍公教人員用他一次或半次的全退的薪水的退休金放給政府讓政府使用政府給他18%的優存在當年的時空背景之下後來經歷了公務人員薪資結構的全面調整"},{"start":9431.724,"end":9459.089,"text":"加解擔任國小教師的時候心智已經改善很多了所以他現在退休生活無餘我也非常的感念有前面這些退休人員他們的付出也感謝這段時間政府的提撥但是我們要強調的未來不管是軍公教都需要這個年金改革維持能夠永續的去存在謝謝主席讓我這個時間讓心情來跟羅委員做交換謝謝總召委那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9470.945,"end":9498.044,"text":"主席我想在座的立法委員齁如果我沒有看錯的話齁大概只有我跟主席曾經當過公務員啦我是講那個你考公務人員的高普考嗎我講的是公務員通過高普考的公務員 文官 文官啦 謝謝沒有 您發展好啦 謝謝"},{"start":9499.994,"end":9528.934,"text":"我想我只要分享一下我自己當公務員的心情而且是基層公務員基層公務員心情我在大學畢業當兵退伍的時候通過高考進到公平會當基層公務員那時候蔡英文在當公平會的委員那我還印象非常深刻因為我的父母親都是勞工階層父親是碼頭工人所以當時看到榜單出來那我考上高考父親是開心到流眼淚"},{"start":9530.677,"end":9557.904,"text":"可是呢最近我看到另外一個母親也在流眼淚就是那位無姓公務員他被霸凌被他的主管管霸凌然後交出了工作的同時也交出了他的生命他的母親也在流眼淚今天我在這邊我也跟告訴大家我是從公務人員的角度將心比心的來去看今天公務員到底面對什麼問題"},{"start":9560.336,"end":9587.681,"text":"公務人員現在面對兩大問題第一個就是過去這八年我們的民進黨執政的時候對文官極度的侵滅極度的霸凌你現在看到所有的事情在過去我當公務員基層公務員的時候或者是我在馬政府工作的時候坦白講是沒有看到的怎麼會去霸凌到公務員今天"},{"start":9589.178,"end":9611.743,"text":"必須用這麼極端的方式怎麼會去叫公務員深蹲演講叫公務員下跪道歉還叫公務員你去死吧這是長期民進黨對於所謂的公務人員的不尊重那甚至最後變成霸凌那造成的一個悲劇第二個是什麼"},{"start":9612.864,"end":9639.142,"text":"第二就是對於公務人員民進黨長期把公務人員都是貶義為祕寵所以呢認為你不值得你不應該拿到這樣的退休待遇我回想起當初我在報考公務員的時候我也會萬萬沒有想到一件事有報公務員第一個為什麼那時候想要當公務員因為我覺得公務員是一個有尊嚴的工作啊"},{"start":9640.165,"end":9669.113,"text":"大家都覺得考上公務員很棒啊很好啊公務員是一個穩定的工作可以報銷國家公務人員是一個有保障的工作不只薪水有保障政府也保障了我退休的生活三十年前我不會想像到有一天政府跟我講說因為我會破產所以抱歉我曾經答應你的事情我做不到我們再回到今天的我們講的公務員員的退休的所得替代率的問題"},{"start":9670.728,"end":9696.468,"text":"剛才民進黨的委員們一直在強調馬政府馬總統對於公務人員的這年金改革的態度是啊公務人員也沒有反對年金改革我也沒有反對啊但我不知道今天我們的在座的執政黨的立委跟我們所有後面的機關的首長你有沒有聽到你們自己都說已經砍了公務員兩千億了當血肉消去之後"},{"start":9697.759,"end":9725.941,"text":"在這邊我們期待的也就是你可不可以保他的金股啊公務員也沒有反對年金改革啊但要求所得替代率從75%掉到67.5%夠了吧就很卑微的三個字夠了吧不要怪我今天對我們嘉賓兄前面那個保障公務員這五個字我看得很刺眼因為所謂保障公務員是建立在什麼建立在削奪他的退休保障資障"},{"start":9727.233,"end":9749.801,"text":"我還沒有講今天我的提案裡面還包括一個就針對退休的警察消防海巡還有空中跟移民署的危勞勤務人員難道他們不值得國家更好的待遇嗎更好的對待嗎更好的退休保障嗎這些問題其實需要的複雜度並不難同理心而已"},{"start":9751.018,"end":9771.497,"text":"因此在這邊我坦白講民進黨有個主張我也認同但是我也希望這主張不是變成是今天某種程度拖延今天我們來談今天解決公務員現在退休保障受到很大侵害的一個拖延的理由就是你要說主張公聽會我覺得很好啊"},{"start":9772.475,"end":9774.356,"text":"三）委員吳宗憲、趙偉等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":9789.668,"end":9790.529,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":9813.43,"end":9816.052,"text":"條文宣讀時間只有十二分鐘所以我預計與尋答完畢後"},{"start":9841.331,"end":9865.053,"text":"條文修正草案 會議會在巡禮完畢跟條文宣讀後就散會。主席那您剛剛有說是不是大家都來召開公聽會所以您剛剛宣讀是您是今天的主席但是你說好公聽會就宗嘉賓去開那我們今天的訴求跟您講了一整個早上您是排案的委員怎麼排案的委員沒有要排公聽會呢"},{"start":9867.235,"end":9873.679,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":9897.236,"end":9900.146,"text":"那先審完預算再排公聽會我們也可以支持。"},{"start":9904.383,"end":9923.815,"text":"因為您是主審的召委,剛剛智翔委員也說他也支持公聽會啊,你是主審的委員嗎?那個吳委員齁,因為我自己也是認同說,因為這個也是一件重要的事情,所以我這邊我也會安排公聽會。那其他就尊重我的決定好不好?沒有,這個就尊重我的決定,因為"},{"start":9930.939,"end":9932.141,"text":"事由委員主席已經說會開公聽會你就給他一點時間好不好這個你們還是要尊重我的決策嘛"},{"start":9942.622,"end":9943.362,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9972.557,"end":9980.908,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會議的程序。機關代表先前已經報告完畢,相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄。提案說明及機關報告已經進行完畢,現在開始進行詢答。"},{"start":9989.957,"end":10011.088,"text":"法定人數不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案"},{"start":10016.564,"end":10019.167,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":10043.106,"end":10051.495,"text":"主席有請全序部部長然後人事長我們的警政消防移民來麻煩空總還有海巡"},{"start":10071.225,"end":10092.813,"text":"我先有幾個問題想先就教我們的五單位的那個主管請問我們的警政署我們的許主任你支持這個增加我們警察消防海巡移民空中的圍牢勤務人員的退休保障嗎"},{"start":10096.96,"end":10123.713,"text":"因為這個畢竟是屬於憲政的議題所以我們也是配合政策但是警政署會積極的協調相關機關你支持嗎?我再問第三遍你支持嗎?所以你答不出來?你答不出來?我告訴你全序部跟任市長如果反對我可以理解我今天說真的各個署長沒有到我也是有意見的"},{"start":10125.117,"end":10148.321,"text":"你請一個人事主任你今天不敢幫你的警察同仁代言聲言來主任請上來請上來請問號過去十年因公傷殘因公死亡跟殉職的警察人員多少我告訴你我知道你也沒準備8139人沒錯吧平均每年814位"},{"start":10154.293,"end":10180.786,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第七十五條條文修正草案。結果你面對我們警察這麼危險的一個情惡的狀況你連幫他們爭取退休保障你都答不出來我萬分遺憾我告訴你我再給你一次機會啦你認不認為今天我們的警察值得更好的對待"},{"start":10181.796,"end":10204.1,"text":"當然當然那他退休應該也要得到更好的保障是的謝謝你來請消防署你覺得我們消防打火弟兄他的退休值得更好的保障嗎這部分是的謝謝你來移民署"},{"start":10207.096,"end":10236.779,"text":"我們移民署的危險危牢的勤務人員值不值得更好的退休保障?是的謝謝你來 空總請問我們空總執行危牢勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的退休保障?是謝謝海巡我們海巡執行危牢勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的保障?值得"},{"start":10238.293,"end":10266.808,"text":"來,兩位,我們人事長跟部長。我想請教部長,五單位的心聲你聽到了嗎?我跟委員報告,退休人員,這種特別為老人員的一個退休保障,我們現在就有比一般公務人員更好的保障,包括他的可以提早退休,然後可以提早支援全額退休金,如果他有發生,我們不想見到任何不幸的時候。但是今天我們對所得替代率,我們希望"},{"start":10268.649,"end":10294.203,"text":"對所以我跟你講你好好聽聽五個單位的心聲我跟委員報告我問你一個問題來我想請教您請教您部長請問我們現在國人平均壽命是多少歲男性應該七十七十六歲上下女性八十一歲我想那是男女性的平均啦我講平均啦錦霄平均的死亡年齡是幾歲"},{"start":10295.804,"end":10297.667,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":10312.543,"end":10312.823,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":10339.929,"end":10354.239,"text":"我告訴你今天警察也是男女都有我們講危險勤務人員今天我還是一句很簡單的話今天功績明天忘記不要變成今天我們政治人物的常態啦我再想請教你下一個問題來我請任市長我請任市長"},{"start":10358.424,"end":10379.637,"text":"年金的所謂的我們今天講所得替待遇現在已經從本分的兩倍的75%掉到67%了嘛 對不對67.5了嘛 對不對67.5剛剛我們執政黨的委員也講啊過去在砍公務員退休金這些年已經砍了兩千多億了嘛 對不對2074億2074億嘛 對不對請問我們在這邊是在反對年金改革嗎"},{"start":10386.755,"end":10413.592,"text":"我想不是反對大家只是針對這個意義大家對話對啊很好啊今天我只是講到一個重點也讓我們所有公教人員聽一聽今天年金改革列車啟動之後公教人員已經被砍掉兩千多億了那我再想請教你下一個問題我們只是說夠了吧但夠了吧是你的主觀的判斷啦夠不夠了你們自己有自己的精算的方式"},{"start":10414.465,"end":10441.22,"text":"可是今天過去政府在標舉所謂的年金改革你今天要除了血肉之外還要刨瓦他的筋骨這個邏輯建構在幾個邏輯第一個邏輯是什麼政府財政困難嘛對不對沒錯吧都會破產年金可以永續還有兼顧到世代正義的問題那我想請教您吼你支不支持我們的勞保政府負擔最終保證責任"},{"start":10443.32,"end":10472.302,"text":"這個我想勞動部會有整體的一個規劃問你你知道賴總統主張是什麼基本上你不會連賴總統主張都不知道來部長請問部長你知道吧賴總統政見是什麼勞保他覺得政府要怎麼樣我想政府永遠是要照顧我勞工跟所有的工作者你也不敢講你賴總統的話都不敢講賴總統就直接保證勞保政府會負擔最終保證身份只是我比他更近一步我主張要入法"},{"start":10474.451,"end":10474.911,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":10504.551,"end":10511.315,"text":"今天請問2020年稅收超徵多少錢?超徵多少?部長五千億啦!2023超徵多少?3860億啦!2024超徵多少?四千億啦!一邊喊窮!"},{"start":10526.955,"end":10543.71,"text":"幾千億幾千億稅收超徵這還是其次來我想請教您你覺得政府最近是不是爆發很多包括濫用就業安定基金甚至包括今天我們連政府都在反省檢討的一些所謂的國家的預算使用的問題有沒有你知道吧有看過了吧就業安定基金的浪費連勞動部我們的部長都說要去查啦有沒有"},{"start":10551.676,"end":10566.524,"text":"當我們的權序部長可以躲在深山當中選擇性的去接受今天只對公務員不利的一個訊息那任何對公務人員我們要討公道的訊息你當什麼權序部長啊!人事長請!我要問人事長了"},{"start":10575.916,"end":10603.457,"text":"你總知道吧?有看新聞吧?我也有看新聞對啊!部長學學人事長擔當人事長至少沒有像你這樣迴避問題那我就要問一件事情你政府幾千億幾百億要嘛就掏空要嘛就浪費要嘛就閉案然後你一邊亂花錢裝潢每人每款的辦公室辦演唱會然後發包綠油油去剪輯他個人宣傳的影片"},{"start":10604.974,"end":10621.619,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件中（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件中）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件中）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件中）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案"},{"start":10634.229,"end":10660.391,"text":"沒有在反對什麼年改我們的訴求只有一個兩千億夠了吧還不夠啊最後啊我要跟還是跟我們任市長講任市長你應該也是文官系統出身的嘛是對不對是所以我們有相同的背景跟同理心嘛對不對我也考過剛前面有講過我也考過公務員我也當過兩年的基層公務員在公民會當科員"},{"start":10662.708,"end":10679.396,"text":"你覺得最近文官系統的狀況你有沒有覺得很難過啊?你看我們公務員被霸凌你有沒有很難過啊?有沒有?部長你有沒有很難過?你們兩個責無旁貸你知道吧?公務員最大後盾靠山不就全序部不就是人事總處嗎?是不是?"},{"start":10694.636,"end":10710.687,"text":"所以我告訴你現在公務員是面兩面夾沙的困境工作沒有尊嚴被這些囂張的官員踐踏大鄰他們然後呢不斷的再去找藉口找理由砍他的退休的待遇砍兩千億不夠要繼續砍下去今天在這邊"},{"start":10715.99,"end":10738.724,"text":"我當然知道你我剛說過人事長跟權序部你們有兩個同樣職責同樣存在一個當然你們要去把守政府的一些人事的一些狀況另外你們也是公務人員很重要的後盾聽聽公務員心聲聽聽退休的警察消防海巡空總跟移民署的危牢勤務人心聲跟他們多溝通好不好"},{"start":10740.356,"end":10764.477,"text":"一直都有在溝通。」好,謝謝您。以上。好,謝謝。那下一位我們請鍾嘉賓召委進行詢問。然後我們做會議程序的預告,上午會議進行到12點。那如果到時候有委員正在詢問,就到該委員詢問結束後休息。預計休息時間一小時,下午會議提前至一時開會。"},{"start":10777.365,"end":10797.375,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府家屬長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、記者、女士、先生。有請我們權序部施部長以及人事總處書務人事長。部長好、人事長好。我想呢,我的標題很清楚啊。"},{"start":10798.462,"end":10812.69,"text":"退休公務人員年金依法物價調整物條保障退休生活。」您同意嗎?同意。同意。那麼至於調整薪資限債職人員舉誓皆然,您認為是這樣嗎?任市長。"},{"start":10816.158,"end":10816.959,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":10830.598,"end":10831.019,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":10849.218,"end":10876.573,"text":"他說1995年退伍新制以來提撥的金額從來就不足以支應支出就是沒有足以提撥這個事實這個事實表達政府跟退休人員這個事實在過去幾次的精算報告中已經非常清楚指出但是問題存在我們選擇不面對不解決他是指當時的政府所造成的現象就是現在整個退伍基金已經瀕臨要破產的懸崖已經到了不得不改革的時刻"},{"start":10877.153,"end":10902.532,"text":"多幫這個國家的未來想一想,多幫我們下一代的未來想一想,希望真的能達成年金永續,不要把負擔交給下一代。」這是當時時代力量黨團的代表黃國昌委員陳志的呼籲。很可惜我沒有機會在他後面發言,不曉得他對這個內容是否繼續同。請問兩位部長、人長,你們知道當時黃委員有做這樣的一個立場的發言嗎?"},{"start":10904.363,"end":10905.884,"text":"年金是為了保障公務員退休生活,對嗎?"},{"start":10905.884,"end":10910.466,"text":"112年的公務人員平均實質的月退休金是58,500元。這遠優於大概在112年全年平均每月的經常性薪資45,800元。"},{"start":10933.41,"end":10960.246,"text":"比當年度的每月壽星階級的中位數4萬3千8來得高那麼如果以勞保退保合計的退休人員他們大概只有領到那些在職人員喔領到3萬8請問市部長這個數字正確嗎?這個數字是根據我們的資料庫所做的統計好那剛剛我提到家姐家母的情況退休教室的月退休目前是5萬9是吧?"},{"start":10962.233,"end":10970.837,"text":"平均中位數 平均數那麼我看到的一個資料新進的教師國小教師依學歷大概是從4萬6到5萬是起薪"},{"start":10977.591,"end":10992.067,"text":"教師教師一般的那個平均的那個月退休薪是比公務人員高一點是更高嘛那如果我們看到那退休公務員月退休薪五萬一嘛五萬一那麼新進公務員的月薪高考的四萬九到五萬三普考的是四萬一這也是事實嗎對"},{"start":10993.308,"end":11013.7,"text":"所以如果這樣說,如果說我們以今年度的統計資料,去年的統計資料,職場的新鮮人的薪水中位數是三萬一退休公務員有七成以上,現在退休的人有七成以上他們領的月退休分是五萬一而退休教師的月退休分的中位數是五萬九,是這樣沒有錯吧?所以如果說我們如果用這個退休制度來看"},{"start":11014.662,"end":11043.737,"text":"其實目前軍公教人員就我所熟悉的教育人員他們目前是比現職的教師、新進教師比現在職場上的現職的教師、新進教師甚至比現在在職的勞工都領得多,您同意嗎?應該是這個趨勢好,所以說我們所謂的目前我們往下看我們的退休人員如果我們所得替代率下降那為什麼他實際收入會增加呢?他實際領到的年金會增加,什麼原因?"},{"start":11044.662,"end":11050.432,"text":"因為主要是有隨著這個物價指數的一個調整我想這種 因為退休手勞是會調整的"},{"start":11050.981,"end":11051.141,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":11080.094,"end":11095.522,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":11107.709,"end":11127.694,"text":"儘管退休人員的替代率是下降,他也同時受惠,是嗎?那麼還包括CPI物條也讓他受惠,好。但是現在國民黨跟民眾黨他們希望的呢,出水量增加,但是注水量不變,那麼可能會造成限職的人員、軍公交人員退休的時候,恐怕年紀已經用盡了,是不是有這個情況?"},{"start":11128.654,"end":11145.39,"text":"所以我們估算大概會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以請問一下我現在請教一下那麼部長政府這些從納稅人拿到的這些預算是要給退休人員還是給現職的公務人員"},{"start":11146.195,"end":11171.626,"text":"我想因為我們是實施基金所以基金本來要負擔自己應該負擔的責任那我想這是一個最正確維護基金永續經營的一個方式所以你的意思是說我們政府收當年度收來的稅金應該用給當年度為人民服務的公僕的軍公教人員至於已經退休的軍公教人員他用基金來維持他退休後有尊嚴的生活是這個原則沒錯吧是好那我們想看"},{"start":11172.446,"end":11200.592,"text":"好那接下來呢我先來看一下來人事長齁我大概年輕的部分問到這裡但是我還是很關注希望我們能夠對於現職的軍公教人員藥學保障這些所有的包括大專校院的兼任教師的中典費公職律師的職務合定工程員的預算提升方案國軍的一個地域加擠勞動檢查人員的風險加擠好這些所有的零零總總的是編在政府的哪些預算當中人事長"},{"start":11202.005,"end":11205.166,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":11232.053,"end":11254.554,"text":"事實上它也有固定的收入當然會造成一些排擠效果所以退休人員跟現職的軍工人員某個程度上如果我們的立法如果我們的處置不當會造成互相的排擠造成退休人員跟現職人員在爭奪我們政府從人民納稅錢拿來的有限的大品是這樣嗎"},{"start":11258.597,"end":11276.851,"text":"所以明年人種的施政計畫有辦法解決缺額,待遇有辦法解決讓業界,這是我之前都問過你的,拚了過明年搶財,要你去盤點離職率高、掉職率高、缺額人數多、缺額比例過高以自願排序尾段的並且快要改單待遇方案,人事黨你願意承諾好好地解決限職軍官官員,迫切需要解決問題嗎?你可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":11279.761,"end":11301.633,"text":"事實上我們經常性的都會去做前版的一個人力的籌劃還有待遇的一種報告所以我希望人事長今天你也是一起來列席做報告我希望你的職責就是要優先保障並提高我們現職軍公教人員包括有些圍牢的人員他們的待遇好不好這是我們責務部橫帶的事"},{"start":11303.194,"end":11325.262,"text":"我們來看一下軍人跟警校退休人員的比較軍人年資較短、退休年限制較低、妥得率較高可是相對的警校人員退休年資較長他與同等的公務員他的值等較高所以他的所得替代率跟其他公務員相同所以目前人種所定的這些知己辦法對現職人員的保障夠不夠"},{"start":11326.943,"end":11351.87,"text":"人事長這個基本上我們都有跟這些相關的機關有做充分的一個討論那我請司部長剛剛有一個問題你來不及講就是說年齡退休人員的平均餘命剛剛是你還是誰說因為軍警銷多數是男性所以他們的這個年齡應該跟公務人員的男性來對比是這個意思吧"},{"start":11352.718,"end":11376.421,"text":"對,因為他的主體是男性啦所以說如果我們現在看到一個數字說軍警校退休人員他們的平均移民較其他公務機關的人員來的短那是因為其他公務機關的人員是男女或者教育人員一起放來比而軍警校大部分是男性而我國的平均移民性別本來就是有差別你們告訴我女性多於男性多少年"},{"start":11376.641,"end":11393.317,"text":"我應該說女性好像現在是84歲左右多於男性幾歲多於男性76都超過78歲超過78歲嘛對那我們就知道為什麼軍警消公務退休這些人退休人員他的平均性命跟一般的公務人員來的相對於較低有沒有差到78歲"},{"start":11395.214,"end":11422.384,"text":"這個數字我想來講但是我印象中應該有差到這樣一個差不多就是跟性別的差別性別是有差別差不多就是跟性別的差別好明顯差別所以呢我這邊的再次的提醒拜託這個很快的人事長還是要提醒你我之前詢問過的長期缺額單位參考美軍的薪資制度以有效填補缺額增加續任意願就是我們過去的續薪方式都是以值續薪希望你會參考以薪續職可以去研究一下嗎"},{"start":11423.845,"end":11449.896,"text":"目前已經有在做這樣的研究好那下一個很簡單的齁那麼我之前呢也包括看到全序部的書面報告也看到人總共同研議各機關應該包括各權責主管機關對於限職人員包括非薪資以外的實物實體的物品比如說住宿是不是能夠給予他們這些更多的一些在職時候的福利兩位這個應該是人事長這邊全序部這邊是不是都可以一起來支持"},{"start":11451.277,"end":11479.616,"text":"實際上今年的三月我也跟司部長一起到屏東地區我們有去針對偏遠地區的大概他裡面會有兩種樣態一個是教育人員基本上都會有提供住宿反而是一般公務人員沒有那這個部分我們也是在檢討看看要如何來改進好所以呢現職軍公教人員人事總書要加油那全庶部這邊以些修法的部分我不曉得這些部分跟全庶部有沒有關聯"},{"start":11480.716,"end":11508.439,"text":"這些部分原則上如果是福利事項因為剛剛談的那些都是廣業福利事項是歸人總來負責那如果縫擠的部分才是歸全區部這邊來負責我希望包括公務人員的縫擠法的修法建議還有公務人員加擠給予的辦法的修法建議請兩個部會共同合作來努力的提高跟保障我們限制軍公教人員尤其是圍牢辛苦的人員的待遇好嗎不管是薪資或者是實體的待遇"},{"start":11509.096,"end":11533.947,"text":"那我 我們基本上是合作無間好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝任市長好 謝謝鐘召委那下一位我們請林思明委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請任市長還有我們權敘部麻煩任市長和權敘部長委員長是 任市長跟部長首先請教"},{"start":11538.991,"end":11561.97,"text":"我先講總統的一段話給大家知道賴清德總統他在擔任行政院長的時候他在2019年在台大有一場演講他對於年金改革的議題他表示說年金改革當然不可能回到從前了但是如果有受到衝擊的話必要應該做一些調整"},{"start":11564.013,"end":11590.226,"text":"所以我想請教兩位對於賴總統這一番話就是說年金如果有必要的話要做調整那你們的看法如何尤其對於我們今年七月我們首次的年金改革五年檢討出爐所以你覺得目前我們的年改的成效如何有哪些問題可以改善去呼應賴總統的當時在擔任行政院長他所說的這個話"},{"start":11590.606,"end":11611.153,"text":"我跟委員簡單的一個報告確實我們在去年有做五年根據法律做五年度的那個調整報告那調整報告是建立了一套機制那最後評估結果是說因為年金的財務還是非常嚴峻所以呢我們會持續來觀察這個事情所以我想所以你完全不贊成他講的所謂的微調的一個看法"},{"start":11612.574,"end":11617.675,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等一）"},{"start":11639.48,"end":11646.044,"text":"刀刀劍鼓了你認為還不夠嗎?刀刀劍鼓了你認為還不夠嗎?所以我覺得你們實際上根本沒有在實際上去了解我們所有公務人員的心聲"},{"start":11663.034,"end":11666.905,"text":"現在物價調漲現在所有的包含我們的這個醫療的就醫的這些這個費用"},{"start":11670.58,"end":11672.662,"text":"實際上真的要到一個檢討的一個的時間已經到了看了兩千多億的嘛"},{"start":11699.369,"end":11699.769,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":11718.418,"end":11739.384,"text":"法律本來就講說最後政府會負責政府要負最後責你認為會破產嗎因為所有參加基金的人跟政府要一起共同先一起來努力負擔這個責所以我們贊成年改但是你要有一個限度當我們的人民我們的退休公務人員他的基本的一個生活保障受到很嚴重的衝擊的時候因為社會的變遷"},{"start":11741.701,"end":11768.561,"text":"你就要做調整啊我現在不曉得為什麼你們到現在還不願意鬆口一直認為說會剝奪什麼現代的這個公務人員他們未來在這個基金裡面會去從他們的這個薪水裡面拿錢政府要負最後的責任嘛你要照顧的這些公務人員是當初他進來公務體系你對他的承諾嘛政府可以這樣子嗎完全違反信賴保護原則"},{"start":11770.066,"end":11794.87,"text":"我跟委員報告這個當初這個一百零零七年通過這個這個年改法案我想現在法務這當然是另外一例所以我們都所以我們剛才跟你講我們並沒有反對年改但是年改要有一個限度到目前要檢討了啦到檢討的時候已經到了啦所以你們還口口聲聲說這個是要保障公務人員我不曉得年改不走回頭路現在的牌子怎樣寫"},{"start":11795.646,"end":11798.667,"text":"三）委員賴清德等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴清德等19人擬具"},{"start":11824.178,"end":11824.658,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":11849.653,"end":11875.18,"text":"這個會造成就是說你雖然說會隨公務人員的調薪也對我們的退休公務人員的他的相關的退休金也會做調整做微調但是我們他砍的幅度是非常大的我們現在覺得說你現在砍到一個程度你就不應該再砍了我現在意思是這樣就砍夠了沒有你不要再跟我講什麼這個調薪不調薪的問題這原本就是你要去做調整的嘛這是原本他權力的保障嘛"},{"start":11876.571,"end":11905.464,"text":"現在是說你砍夠了沒有?砍到百分之六十七點五了啦。現在到目前為止。你剛才提到兩千多億啦齁。你們都提出長篇兩千這個很健康的砍。這些公務人員都還生活不下去了啦。你還說很健康的砍。要不然你也會老。你會遇到一樣的問題啦。我相信你的整個想法又跟現在不一樣啦。"},{"start":11906.721,"end":11907.402,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":11929.4,"end":11956.341,"text":"今天署長沒來當然是主任你來我還是就叫你啦年改後我們的警察緩退新陳代謝困難出現基層警力老化警力斷層的警訊監察院在108年現在已經113年5年前的12月17號就提出調查報告要求內政部警政署行政院人事行政總署徹底檢討並研磨改善"},{"start":11957.902,"end":11972.552,"text":"請問現在研磨改善的內容大概是怎麼樣各位委員報告其實我們現在陸陸續續在招生我們每年幾乎招生兩到三千年的基層監力所以陸陸續續已經有在遞補新的能力了"},{"start":11974.073,"end":12001.731,"text":"另外,立法院在今年3月20日也發函檢訟警察人員年金制度檢討續處情形及軍公教人員年金制度檢討資訊公開事宜。其中對於年改制度調整認為影響層面廣泛,尤其要將警察人員與一般公務人員及其他圍牢職務人員脫鉤。"},{"start":12003.452,"end":12028.07,"text":"而要提高他的所得替代率有做出這樣的一個建議請問你們對這個建議有什麼看法這部分我們警政署因為畢竟這是考試院縣政執掌所以我們會積極協調相關的單位你是否對於我們的警察人員消防人員還有危牢的職務人員能訂定特別的退休所得替代率你贊成嗎"},{"start":12029.228,"end":12049.943,"text":"以我們立場,照顧警察同仁,其實政府一直都很照顧警察同仁,相關的服務一帶我們都比,是有比較,又有一般的公務人員。雖然涉及跟人事總處有關,跟全序部有關,但是我站在你們是警政署主管機關的一個立場,對於警察人員退休之後他們生活的保障,你認為還要這樣刀刀劍骨嗎?"},{"start":12052.966,"end":12070.165,"text":"當然啦以我們個人立場希望我們能夠政府再對我們警察﹖所以我們認為你們站在你們警察的一個主管機關的立場你要更加的保護你們警消的相關的人員好不好希望你們要大力的在政府部門為他們發聲"},{"start":12071.346,"end":12081.737,"text":"支持年金改革,反對年金,讓年金改革要走一個適當的路,不要再往下砍了。"},{"start":12097.833,"end":12099.862,"text":"事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文宣告。"},{"start":12104.554,"end":12104.574,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":12135.334,"end":12150.081,"text":"這下不只是國家照顧不到公務人員,我想連現任的公務人員也都連帶被拖累,甚至對於年度總預算的編列也出現很大的衝擊。我想在改革下,財政的效益當然是顯而易見。"},{"start":12152.302,"end":12157.443,"text":"2016到2023軍公教人員節省的經費全部役注在退輔基金高達2774億另外我們有撥補294億役注專戶薪資所造成的缺口"},{"start":12166.647,"end":12184.805,"text":"那如果修法提前來停止替代率再逐年調降那我想退撫基金再幾年下來將減少億柱約2800億那隨著退撫基金可運用的投資金額減少那我想投資的收益會隨之遞減那我想這些版本的修法"},{"start":12185.706,"end":12214.861,"text":"很明顯啦就想要進一步來脫垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率再逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益"},{"start":12215.541,"end":12215.761,"text":"財務的永續經營嚴重影響"},{"start":12240.482,"end":12260.109,"text":"所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則"},{"start":12261.129,"end":12264.531,"text":"年金改革修法合憲,肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要。所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所做的努力,特別是影響國家財政的穩健。所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了"},{"start":12287.345,"end":12287.886,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":12310.751,"end":12335.678,"text":"可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個結果下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性"},{"start":12337.796,"end":12365.736,"text":"我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所有的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較穩當的做法"},{"start":12365.896,"end":12367.957,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":12405.64,"end":12433.552,"text":"好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早齁那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長好部長午安好委員午安好今天我們就這個22個版本齁那委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退扶法及任用法進行這個併案審查齁那公務人員為我們國家"},{"start":12435.453,"end":12451.916,"text":"很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該很平的兼顧那公務人員退服這個相關的撫蓄制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關的改革"},{"start":12453.157,"end":12474.137,"text":"過去我們的這個退伏基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的一個危機在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策"},{"start":12474.557,"end":12492.399,"text":"透過制度的變革來解決為月退休金、啟資年齡偏低、所得替代率偏高等問題。當時部長您也在人事總署服務,充分的參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。"},{"start":12493.48,"end":12521.801,"text":"那提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代"},{"start":12522.779,"end":12524.519,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12544.619,"end":12545.459,"text":"實施改革的必要性"},{"start":12571.808,"end":12572.83,"text":"我個人是主張"},{"start":12591.389,"end":12616.584,"text":"還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到118年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止"},{"start":12621.047,"end":12634.901,"text":"那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題"},{"start":12636.772,"end":12651.716,"text":"如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機?我只可以委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注"},{"start":12655.057,"end":12655.157,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":12676.986,"end":12693.974,"text":"也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標"},{"start":12696.195,"end":12721.33,"text":"我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益那我們在這一次的修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限"},{"start":12723.251,"end":12742.128,"text":"我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領到的這個金額尤其是我們看到這次全區區部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異"},{"start":12743.109,"end":12769.041,"text":"而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了"},{"start":12769.301,"end":12786.967,"text":"我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對 都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右"},{"start":12788.899,"end":12814.869,"text":"好 那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊"},{"start":12815.729,"end":12830.608,"text":"根委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%"},{"start":12832.23,"end":12832.951,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":12850.144,"end":12876.951,"text":"從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":12878.443,"end":12897.212,"text":"我們新晉人員都已經實施那個專戶制了所以專戶制跟我們現在討論這個基金是獨立的所以對現職人員來講新晉的人員來講大概是112年新晉人員他不會受我們今天討論的一個東西的影響就是說純粹就退休金來講對新晉的就不會受影響因為他應該實施專戶制"},{"start":12898.553,"end":12923.047,"text":"好,那我們大家都知道啦,下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退府基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代"},{"start":12924.681,"end":12952.615,"text":"所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全區部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金呢能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論"},{"start":12954.443,"end":12973.428,"text":"那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標"},{"start":12974.488,"end":13003.291,"text":"但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障"},{"start":13004.231,"end":13021.305,"text":"這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝謝謝委員好那依照先前宣告我們現在休息下午一點繼續開會謝謝各位"},{"start":16288.971,"end":16308.231,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。下面我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。謝謝主席。是不是可以麻煩有請我們的權敘部施能傑施部長。"},{"start":16309.483,"end":16333.396,"text":"公務人員退休撫卹基金管理局陳局長陳局長那還有我們的內政部消防署的鄭主任鄭主任三位好"},{"start":16335.819,"end":16346.521,"text":"第一個針對有關於公務人員在辦公室自殺身亡現在依法可不可以辦理因公服序"},{"start":16347.823,"end":16376.302,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在有一個程序喔任何因公腐衰都是由機關提報以後送到部裡面那部裡面會有專案小組這一項的做法是這樣阿由專案小組來認定是OK好但是我還是得人補充報告過去個我們自殺一般是就當成病故死亡阿是是是立場是這樣講的我們接下來往後看阿因為讓整個社會阿都非常難過非常悲憤阿"},{"start":16377.659,"end":16401.951,"text":"我們勞動部勞發署北分署的公務員因為在職場遭受了霸凌不幸輕生了當時在11月19號的時候我們的勞動部說他們肯定他的勞苦奉獻會給他勞動部勞動獎章當然給他勞動獎章"},{"start":16408.129,"end":16433.945,"text":"此時此刻還有什麼意義?」大家或許都會有這個問號勞動部進一步說會向考試院爭取認定因公傷亡的公務員撫蓄補償那目前勞動部的這個案子送到考試院沒有?我的意見至少我們部裡面沒有接到那針對勞動部說"},{"start":16436.769,"end":16465.097,"text":"他要去爭取認定因公傷亡部長您的看法如何我跟委員報告我想這是一個法制的一個程序他只要送來我們就會開會討論所以完全按照委員會的討論對委員會討論是不是要本於法律對是本於法律嗎對來看一下公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第52條的規定自殺死亡比照病故或意外死亡認定這個就是剛剛部長"},{"start":16466.786,"end":16491.072,"text":"你所講的內容嗎?那所以現在勞動部是在講空話嗎?不是很清楚勞動部當初的一個講法不過我們站在部裡的立場就是有任何希望變成因公腐敘就由機關報來那我們組成狀態小組根據法律去審查我希望喔我們的考試院啊在進行這件事情的審議的時候"},{"start":16493.778,"end":16514.732,"text":"雖然在法條的規定上認為說如果是自殺的話他不會用因公撫卹自殺的話我們基本上是比照病故或意外死亡的方式來處理因為部長應該也很熟悉依照公務人員退休之前撫卹法第53條第56條的規定他撫卹"},{"start":16520.615,"end":16547.053,"text":"最後給他們遺族的金額事實上差異會蠻大的到底是因公還是在自殺的情況之下認為意外身故但我希望藉由這個質詢幫忙請命的事情是什麼幫忙請命的事情是說如果他不是因為自己其他的因素選擇結束自己的生命而是"},{"start":16548.274,"end":16565.545,"text":"他在工作的職場上面因為遭受到長官的霸凌沒有辦法接受這麼巨大的身心壓力而選擇結束自己生命的話這個時候來請部長看一下53條53條第二項第二款的規定"},{"start":16571.724,"end":16591.442,"text":"在辦公場所發生意外或危險事故或遭受暴力事件以致死亡。」我希望我們的權序部在審定我希望未來不要有相同的案子啦我希望未來不要有相同的案子但是恐怕要跟單純的自殺"},{"start":16594.292,"end":16610.858,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明"},{"start":16620.051,"end":16645.606,"text":"在撫蓄事由的認定上面全序部必須要做出比較合理的認定部長您贊同嗎我想法律有一些不同的條款那我們在委員會討論的時候就根據機關送來的解釋或者相關的事證人然後由這個專案小組去處理我想這個委員應該也很能夠提亮我這樣的一個講法當然啦我只希望"},{"start":16647.068,"end":16668.629,"text":"勞動部不是只會對外講空話講漂亮話就要落實做好對於不幸往生這位年輕的公務員遺族的保障這個是我質詢的重點等你們認定出來結果出來了以後看是不是可以適時的讓"},{"start":16672.113,"end":16700.547,"text":"本委員會的委員大家知道你們認定的基準認定的結果最後是什麼這樣應該沒有問題吧等我們這個案子送來一定會按程序處理來接下來請消防署的同仁我上次在開公聽會的時候我問說因為我們目前公務人員保障法下面所設的安慰辦法訂得太爛了"},{"start":16702.193,"end":16727.781,"text":"十年都沒有修啊所以很多基層的警消事實上他們是要爭取把他放到治安法裡面那消防署不肯消防署說啊我們在消防法裡面設專章來保護他們的安全那我們11月的時候消防法修正三讀通過那我們總統日前也公告"},{"start":16728.641,"end":16746.812,"text":"但問題是施行細則由你們消防署來定我上一次針對於警消同仁權益的保障召開公聽會的時候你們消防署的同仁跟我說施行日期要等到五年要等到五年這個計畫有沒有改變"},{"start":16747.742,"end":16749.623,"text":"在我這一場公聽會舉辦完了以後我在"},{"start":16770.148,"end":16796.843,"text":"考試委員同意權行使的程序上把這件事情正式的拉上檯面以後第二天我看到內政部急急忙忙發了新聞稿說六個月內會修正相關的執法同步施行所以現在行政院針對有關於消防法的保障現在六個月就可以公告施行了對不對"},{"start":16797.995,"end":16798.616,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16811.707,"end":16835.641,"text":"可能也知道知識體大五年以後才施行到底是一個什麼概念有很多人在社會上面大家都沒有辦法接受發了新聞稿說六個月要施行這件事情就要說到做到我希望消防署要能夠把這樣子的立場清楚的跟內政部跟行政院表達可以嗎"},{"start":16837.262,"end":16843.355,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案。接下來請教一下我們這個退府基金的局長"},{"start":16847.065,"end":16876.345,"text":"之前全序部在今年3月的書面報告因為我們在去年7月1號的時候新進的公務同仁我們都從確定給付制改採成確定提撥制了用個人退休金專戶因此退撫基金的這個水庫裡因為沒有新的錢可以流進來所以就必須政府要去撥補那個時候全序部所提出來的書面報告"},{"start":16878.425,"end":16893.11,"text":"針對有關於撥補的額度有十年、十五年、二十年三種不一樣的方案。你看我們如果分二十年撥補會比分十年撥補政府會多付710億這個是全巨部的報告應該沒有錯吧?是嗎?但問題來了"},{"start":16901.141,"end":16924.09,"text":"我們基層的軍公教啊就出來抗議啊行政院為什麼沒有依照十年的方案啊撥補退輔基金可以啊是豬友分年撥補這個都一定是按照法律來做只是撥補的期層呢當然站在"},{"start":16925.656,"end":16951.185,"text":"全區部跟我們有一個監理會會期待說越快撥補越好那我們就把根據那個10年的錢送到行政院行政院會在總預算裡面去討論那我想很多單位都跟行政院要錢就行政院綜合考量那最後呢大概今年明年也開始要選擇用是20年的那個錢撥補進來所以我想過程是這樣一個所以未來都還是用20年撥補是不是我們會希望行政院未來至少就是用這個為最低的底線應該這樣講"},{"start":16953.105,"end":16978.039,"text":"來我為什麼請局長上來我們來看一下審計部一百一十二年度中央政府總決算副主單位決算的審核報告在這個審核報告當中在這個審核報告當中我上面寫拒付拒付其實就是你們局裡面付的你們局裡面付的是什麼已經召開政府編列預算撥補公教人員退府基金執行事宜會議"},{"start":16979.74,"end":16991.425,"text":"學術部及教育部依該會的決議每年度應該撥補公教人員的額數分別是194億跟123億合計317億這個是10年的撥補方案嗎?沒有錯這是補補裡面的回覆那你們回覆說未來會依照會議的決議繼續辦理現在我的問題就來了就是說我從審計部的報告裡面看到"},{"start":17007.21,"end":17028.647,"text":"事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12條條文修正草案案案。netesi, 你們會議的決議是要依照10年撥補這是你們給審計部的報告但是實際上面在做的又是分20年撥補所以我是想要利用這個機會請教一下這到底是怎麼回事我想跟委員報這就像很多行政機關在編列總預算的時候各機關都有想要這麼多錢"},{"start":17034.011,"end":17036.232,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":17055.576,"end":17076.113,"text":"會議的決議分十年撥補嗎?然後到行政院了以後改變成二十年撥補嗎?我還是想這是正確行政院是這樣的考量不過我還是想講這是總預算的編制的權在行政院我事實上只希望利用這次詢答的機會讓大家知道問題的關鍵在哪裡因為你如果選序部也好"},{"start":17078.052,"end":17099.164,"text":"退府基金的管理局也好都是按照會議的決議提上去的話那問題的關鍵就在行政院問題的關鍵如果在行政院問你們考試院對你們也不公平因為我只要確認你們當初的確是按照會議的決議給提上去的只是到行政院按照部長的說法他們有不一樣的考量"},{"start":17100.609,"end":17117.003,"text":"對吧我想應該行政院他會確保這個基金還是要分年撥補這是沒有問題只是他的速度因為在總預算的規模下他覺得他有他的一個算一個方他一定確保這個基金那個該撥補的他一定會撥補因為喔上一次這一些"},{"start":17122.301,"end":17138.1,"text":"老施阿全教總的朋友們召開記者會的時候事實上就有提出阿這樣子的呼籲對行政院做這樣子喊話事實上也有執政黨的立委一起參加那場記者會贊成這樣的看法"},{"start":17139.014,"end":17158.363,"text":"那讓大家知道關鍵在行政院整體預算的調配上這樣他們知道問題的關鍵跟問題的核心在哪裡這個是我希望在這一次詢答的時候能夠去釐清的問題啦好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請吳思耀委員發言哈囉 要立碼給我只有你一個碼對 只有你一個碼"},{"start":17178.78,"end":17179.325,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17189.215,"end":17209.801,"text":"年金改革不走回頭路世代正義不能開倒車如果今天快速的審查沒有公聽會直接處理那對於很多利害相關人的權益沒有辦法被多元的發聲那當然民進黨組黨這樣子的法案因為我們支持改革要永續"},{"start":17211.081,"end":17237.766,"text":"那民眾黨的巴西在立法院就成為這個議案非常關鍵的支持力量到底民眾黨要站在挺改革還是反改革只是蠻可惜的過去在時代力量的時候的黃國昌委員他對於當時蔡英文總統啟動的年改方案他大聲的踏法認為民進黨改的不夠多"},{"start":17238.886,"end":17260.426,"text":"正義的實踐不夠快。」所以我剛剛聆聽了前一位黃國昌總召他的發言作為民眾黨的召集人我非常期待我一直試圖努力在他剛剛的發言裡頭能夠聽到民眾黨會延續他們最重視年輕人他們要實踐世代正義我2024的黃國昌跟2016的黃國昌是一樣的立場"},{"start":17265.638,"end":17279.339,"text":"道歉,跟2012、2013的時代力量的黃國昌應當是一樣的立場。那非常遺憾剛剛他的發言我沒有聽到民眾黨對於這幾個修法到底"},{"start":17280.919,"end":17295.725,"text":"能不能夠支持民進黨長期來的改革主張是不是能夠來阻卻共同的來擋下這種讓所得替代率終止然後可能殃及我們退府基金破產"},{"start":17297.116,"end":17316.669,"text":"我非常期待聽到民眾黨委員的正義之聲但他顯然沒有但我尊重每一位委員的發言畢竟政黨會換立場可能也會換只是我認為非常的遺憾我現在所念的這些話"},{"start":17318.137,"end":17341.12,"text":"董事長您同意嗎?年金制度好比一列行駛中的火車,各種年金制度的破產就像是前方的一個懸崖。身為總統不能做事不管,不能把問題留給下一代,也不能留給下一個總統,再困難年改一定要做,您同意嗎?我非常同意,那時候我在大學教書,我知道年改對我衝擊是很大的。"},{"start":17341.693,"end":17348.517,"text":"所以您也認為為了下一代大家都要能夠一起來實踐世代正義這是誰說的話呢這是馬英九總統2013年1月30我所引用的是總統府的新聞稿"},{"start":17358.897,"end":17372.04,"text":"羅志強委員現在是立委當時他就是總統府的副秘書長我相信馬英九總統記者會在宣誓這樣立場的時候羅志強就在身旁下一頁"},{"start":17373.752,"end":17396.891,"text":"我國年輕制度有三個缺點經費不足行業不平世代不均所以我們要務實提出可行的改革方案年輕制度影響到社會當中許多人的未來今天不做明天會後悔當時也身為大學教授的您也聽到了馬英九總統的宣誓這是他11月21號在2012年的新聞稿"},{"start":17400.635,"end":17404.391,"text":"所以我非常同意今天全序庫做的報告裡頭的一句話"},{"start":17407.608,"end":17435.364,"text":"整個年改是跨越藍綠執政都要永續前進我非常同意這是跨越政黨因為這是世代正義所以馬英九做不到的民進黨做到了2018年7月1號年改終於完成立法院的修法正式上路那個時候我是第一任的立委蔡嬌我記憶非常的深刻為了"},{"start":17436.657,"end":17452.535,"text":"請年改我們立委連審查議案要進入立法院行經的過程都要受到非常多發動抗爭不理性的這些朋友對我們施以的暴力威脅"},{"start":17453.991,"end":17455.792,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":17469.957,"end":17481.16,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":17499.522,"end":17521.388,"text":"加上我們連兩年的撥補294億加總起來是我們合計挹注了3068.6億我想就教於部長今天聽您口頭說明的時候我想再釐清一下我們扣除政府兩年的撥補目前2774億主要挹注於退府"},{"start":17522.369,"end":17528.291,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":17546.69,"end":17554.53,"text":"那麼換言之真的去動用到退休公務員的那個月退休金的部分就很少"},{"start":17555.37,"end":17580.582,"text":"到目前為止其實還很少扣到很少扣到所以這是事實所以現在很多退休的軍工叫出來說已經影響剝奪了我的生活基本所需是這樣嗎我們的統計數字現在七成大概七成左右的退休人員大概有月退休金額5.1萬5萬1左右那這個每一個人當然生活需求不一樣不過純粹"},{"start":17582.122,"end":17605.691,"text":"五二一大概是現役的公務同仁的八成薪吧?差不多平均值嘛平均值我講的是平均值那我想應該這樣講我還是要強調一件事情退休制度的設計的退休所得是在照顧個人是退休者以退休者做思考是以退休者延伸的家庭或是其他的各式各樣的一個其他生活"},{"start":17606.138,"end":17609.299,"text":"私部門的勞工朋友平均薪水四萬五千八對不對"},{"start":17634.206,"end":17635.607,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":17653.166,"end":17666.961,"text":"但是我們同樣要保障現在成為擔任國家的中間分子的現役公務人員還有下一代更多的公務同仁他們的權益我們來看OECD國家"},{"start":17668.424,"end":17673.949,"text":"實質退休資遣撫卹法第六十四條條文修正草案案。台灣現在是逐步的我們希望十年"},{"start":17685.699,"end":17703.865,"text":"從七八成可以緩降到六成但以你們的報告告訴我們因為現在我們是用本俸兩倍來作為分母換言之目前如果停在今年大概是67.5但是那是明目上實質上的月退是多少他的所得替代率就是八成"},{"start":17708.166,"end":17720.714,"text":"所以換言之在今年我們所有退休公務同仁他的所得替代率一公位可能過期的薪水是十萬他現在一公位因為他退休了他可以領到八萬讓我們所有的公務同仁哇 世代正義在哪裡我們看下一頁"},{"start":17730.953,"end":17758.792,"text":"高齡少子化我早上也說了各國的年金制度一直在檢視一改二改三改所以今天在野黨的委員要提出修法來檢視我們上路六年的年改可以當然可以可是國際的趨勢是越改因為高齡少子化各國都在面對年輕人要去負擔更沉重的負擔也包括國家的財政受到很大的漢革跟影響"},{"start":17759.813,"end":17780.786,"text":"所以以希臘跟法國2010年一起啟動年改2014年法國二改2016年希臘二改然後到2023年去年法國跟希臘同時進行第三次的年改是越改越嚴我的說法正確吧我看外電的報導確實很多國家是不"},{"start":17785.228,"end":17804.22,"text":"所以說如果台灣的年改可以檢討真的可以檢討但是就要符合真實的國家能夠負擔的那個能力絕對不是越改越鬆我再佔用一點點時間我們來到才化法那一頁"},{"start":17805.68,"end":17811.005,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員說他認為你們原本希望用10年來撥補我們的退府基金他認為為什麼最後變成20年您的說明非常的清楚每個部門去跟中央主計要錢的時候我當然希望要更多"},{"start":17824.736,"end":17849.027,"text":"但是因為要分給所有的部會大家都有需求所以最後是用20年來撥補所以我們這兩年是撥了294億嘛 對不對如果如果才化法就是新生事物6000多億被搬走了政府的財政負擔更重了而且這些退休撫蓄的部分是中央來承擔的"},{"start":17850.848,"end":17859.105,"text":"那麼我們有能力做到穩定的撥補預算給退府基金嗎?這個新生事物對於未來的撥補您的預測是什麼?"},{"start":17861.036,"end":17887.658,"text":"所以可能就越撥越少所以我們的基金永續就越來越遙不可及更可能造成我們基金破產的年限就會提前所以我也請提案再修正我們年改法案的在野黨委員們要多多思考當你們一手修財化法要掏空中央國庫的收入"},{"start":17890.461,"end":17902.997,"text":"另一首卻又要求改年改然後要終止年金改革要增加政府財政的loading然後剛剛民眾黨的委員又要求20年撥補太慢了要10年撥補這不是鬼打牆嗎?"},{"start":17906.642,"end":17924.201,"text":"一手挖錢一手討錢我認為就財政論財政這個會期是預算會期我們要合理來看看中央有多少可用的財源我再一次說如果政府做得到擴大對於退休人員的照顧我絕對支持"},{"start":17925.783,"end":17943.793,"text":"但是政府做得到同樣也要照顧保障現役的公務人員這才是世代正義所以這個修法我們一定要審慎以對謝謝主席才是您願意召開公聽會我希望公聽會能夠越多越好當初馬英九總統的時候全國開了124場座談會我們不應當為快而快為休而休抱歉佔用了多一點時間謝謝主席謝謝部長"},{"start":17955.323,"end":17958.306,"text":"謝謝 下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝召委 有請我們司部長"},{"start":17979.375,"end":18005.608,"text":"副部長我想今天早上到現在也聆聽了很多啦從學者經歷過這麼多年改革完以後重新看到今天檢視這個提案又要走到過去的一個回頭路我相信你很多的一個感慨不管是從軍人的部分公教的部分反正就是三個部分裡面這個大法官會議其實也"},{"start":18006.408,"end":18008.949,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18032.216,"end":18037.54,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":18049.146,"end":18059.291,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":18070.998,"end":18079.181,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":18092.699,"end":18095.28,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":18117.079,"end":18121.78,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":18138.203,"end":18140.604,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":18166.038,"end":18166.218,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18190.111,"end":18193.853,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18219.731,"end":18228.773,"text":"這不通嘛 這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整"},{"start":18244.853,"end":18272.342,"text":"所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞延的一個工資否則你說債值的你說一個債值的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話"},{"start":18273.719,"end":18294.059,"text":"這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看完了沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資啊你問我我也不認為退休金是低延工資啊那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":18297.711,"end":18297.931,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":18321.004,"end":18321.264,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":18336.96,"end":18337.24,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18365.258,"end":18382.706,"text":"這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個功法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031"},{"start":18392.35,"end":18401.581,"text":"交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保溫率是2011就不夠,用完的算是2020,我們再改掉這樣,還要走回去,所以"},{"start":18409.229,"end":18410.749,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":18433.584,"end":18456.625,"text":"因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法"},{"start":18457.225,"end":18457.565,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18485.559,"end":18511.354,"text":"這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預計是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像剛剛我提到了"},{"start":18512.934,"end":18522.077,"text":"會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待,各個政黨大家其實都要善思了。好,謝謝。好,下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言。謝謝主席楊瓊英發言,邀請部長。"},{"start":18546.186,"end":18546.926,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":18573.168,"end":18596.958,"text":"讓退休者他的生活有基本的,就是說照顧他最基本的生活需要。非常好,剛剛您也特別回答了一點,本人非常認同,也就是以退休者為原則,這個對不對?對。好,所以他的目的在維持退休人員的晚年基本的生活,對不對?對。這也是善盡國家照顧老年生活的義務。"},{"start":18597.978,"end":18598.118,"text":"公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":18620.074,"end":18625.715,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18645.561,"end":18666.618,"text":"這是公務人員也就我們撫蓄基金最重要的原則跟誠信問題嘛對不對是不是對我們透過這個基金的方式能夠讓退休者能夠根據法律拿到應該有的這個好所以大家在說欸你十年撫卹你現在改為20年撫卹台電一下子一千億政府撫卹"},{"start":18668.148,"end":18669.288,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":18687.315,"end":18710.996,"text":"但是法例明文規定說那個因為新制實施的缺口政府必須要分年撥補所以不同的算法十年應該是說任何在行政機關都知道每一個部會都會提出說他需求的希望能夠有怎麼樣一個方式可是政府有一個最後的財政規模就這麼大他必須要統籌規劃做出最後決定所以他只是沒有採取十年他採取20年"},{"start":18712.898,"end":18738.645,"text":"所以你還是要延長嗎?你要把10年改為20年嗎?還是會繼續延長?還會繼續延長?我會說繼續撥補啦只是說他是用20年的一個方案當然當然當然那所以呢?所以我們的公務人員退休的人應該是很有榮耀嗎?這個國家所有的決策所有的執行都是公務人員都參與其中啊是不是?那要不要對他尊重?當然應該要尊重要不要對他承諾?"},{"start":18740.825,"end":18766.19,"text":"法律上要求我們要做的事情我們就是要努力去做到努力去做到來第92條明定考試院因會統行政院建立年金的這個制度監控的機制在五年內檢討他的一個制度設計跟財務永續發展那之後定期的去檢討什麼時候會提出我們在去年112年已經第一次做五年的檢討檢討報告"},{"start":18768.015,"end":18796.167,"text":"那在那次檢討報告裡面大概設定了幾個說未來那個觀察的幾個指標那根據這個指標去做檢討所以你的定期是以什麼年限為基準是以那個年金開始實施的107年所以112年做第一次那每5年就還是要檢討所以未來還是5年才做一次對對對這法律規定的事情對對對你可以10年改為20年那你現在還是一樣要與時俊俊你去研討一下因為訊息萬變"},{"start":18798.008,"end":18816.483,"text":"本期要請教來接下來本期要請教物價指數一直攀升我們也知道行政總署呢他有一個什麼他有一個編算高齡家庭的消費者物價指數跟一般的物價指數是不一樣的對不對你知道這個嗎我有看到這個報告"},{"start":18817.344,"end":18817.725,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18833.626,"end":18834.868,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":18850.328,"end":18866.425,"text":"所以目前三十七跟三十八條你要逐漸的去降低他的所得替代率那跟在職的人員來做整個的脫鉤就是你現在的這個論點嗎現在法律是這樣規定的是現在的執行方向嘛就法律這樣規定我們就這樣執行"},{"start":18869.094,"end":18869.394,"text":"律師部長律師部長律師部長"},{"start":18895.714,"end":18900.138,"text":"夠嗎?夠嗎?請說明。夠嗎?夠嗎?你會不會停止調降所的替代率?會不會?這個是你的理由,我們現在討論的是怎麼樣去照顧退休的人。"},{"start":18919.83,"end":18920.23,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18935.317,"end":18961.43,"text":"退休資遣草案案 條整指標提高或四年才調整一次現在依法是這麼做所以本席要請教你是不是同意來修正累計成長率達到正負現在是五嘛那因為這樣的一個通貨情況那你是不是會啟動調整調整他在機制下修正為正負為2%"},{"start":18963.251,"end":18966.653,"text":"也就是與時近近來做隨時滾動性的調整。會不會有這個方向來討論?因為醫療的支出"},{"start":18979.54,"end":18998.502,"text":"我們在內容裡頭沒有討論到醫療的支出本區自己建議因為醫療的支出對於退休者來講他是一塊很大的壓力這個是要怎麼樣真正的照顧退休的公務人員這一塊醫療的支出是不是可以納入這個部分來因此來做討論"},{"start":18999.824,"end":19015.419,"text":"我跟委員報告醫療我們退休軍的制度設計呢都是以個人最低的一個生活需求醫療支出是所有國人同樣都要面到那應該是國家另外的政策必須要這不是國家另外的政策而是你說的我們要怎麼樣照顧退休者"},{"start":19016.491,"end":19031.968,"text":"所以你各項的因子你要真正對於這個退休者的基本生活哪裡所最需要的哪裡最需要的去拿出來這些因子來討論這才是能夠真正的來照顧退休的公務人員是不是"},{"start":19032.922,"end":19059.497,"text":"我想這些所有生活費用、醫療費用、各種費用總是會在CPI裡面會適當的出現,如果它提高的話CPI就會往上走。本身一個結論是……CPI的內容很多啊。所以你的因子如果沒有加入,你怎麼樣都沒有辦法去全面照顧啊。所以你又是在整個政策決策都有參與者,你可以更了解退休公務人員的需求嘛。對不對?你拼命的點頭,我要給你一個答案。"},{"start":19060.558,"end":19083.854,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,在執政黨委員一直說,如果財化法修了給地方,那會影響的怎麼樣?而且甚至財化法給地方,地方執行不了。我要告訴你,你應該將你的基金要怎麼樣永續發展去思考,那地方的需求是什麼?比如說我們台中市要做三條捷運,我們的分配,我們還要配額款,"},{"start":19085.755,"end":19104.691,"text":"如果裁判法通過錢到我們的地方來我相信我們台中市政府盧秀月市長絕對絕對我們會做到淋漓盡致十全十美沒有那個騙民眾的說錢到地方執行不了的這一種論述是不正確的所以我也非常的希望因為"},{"start":19105.752,"end":19125.905,"text":"你參與了這麼多我非常的希望你能夠去冷靜去思考對於我們的原則真正照顧公務人員退休者的基本生活他們的因子要什麼應該拿進來共同討論這才是真正能夠落實照顧退休的公務人員的退休者是不是好謝謝委員好謝謝那現在我們請賴士葆委員發言"},{"start":19139.795,"end":19139.975,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19155.649,"end":19177.472,"text":"委員吳安來部長吳安吶這個我們大家都是學者出身吶我們就講一些講實際的數字吶吼你今天從頭到尾一直在講一直在講一句話我們聽了好幾次吼說如果stop here請問如果現在年改就stop here然後這樣子要提前多久破產"},{"start":19178.453,"end":19179.374,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":19193.715,"end":19195.096,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":19217.574,"end":19217.935,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":19228.717,"end":19233.401,"text":"你不要以為你部長在這裏人事長在這裏做官做伙多你不敢退啊你們的人不敢退啊新的人上不來啊都被你們擋住了你聽我講完都被你擋住了沒有位子去了被人事擋住了沒有位子去了就是這樣啊你擋住年輕的位子啦你知道嗎你這次這樣子"},{"start":19253.658,"end":19254.638,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":19282.761,"end":19286.992,"text":"現在教授薪水跟我那時候離開學校差不多沒有多少所以也是破產啦"},{"start":19291.445,"end":19299.252,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":19317.308,"end":19317.528,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19342.27,"end":19343.991,"text":"財務部長昨天在立法院公開承諾絕對不會動所有的勞工一塊錢"},{"start":19371.408,"end":19373.771,"text":"政府負最後的責任很好沒有人反對請問你同意的話能不能用在公教人員可不可以政府負最終責任絕對不會倒一百四十年也不會倒今天才有意義今天站在這裡才有意義否則你都假說的司部長你都假說的還是會倒啊還是會倒啊"},{"start":19393.172,"end":19404.479,"text":"負擔公務人基金的最後一個責任但是我們要政府要不要負擔公務責任要不要法律是這樣規定的要不要法律本來就規定要不要如果要這樣子的話我們要窮盡各種可能性如果這樣子就不會倒啦"},{"start":19407.54,"end":19418.549,"text":"如果這樣永遠不會倒了我跟您報告這個案件財務上還是要自己先努力如果全部都是政府負擔自己最終責任就是所有納稅人一起大家來負擔責任當然是這樣子啊對不對你要了解為什麼勞動部長敢在那裡承諾說政府絕對負最終責任勞保絕對不會倒大家安心勞保早就倒啦"},{"start":19432.745,"end":19438.591,"text":"老保要不是補了兩千多億加上明年要補一千多億早就倒了他每年都要撥一千多億給老保不就對了老保已經倒了公務體系還沒有倒要到140年按照你們的算法"},{"start":19449.008,"end":19474.744,"text":"但是呢你剛才講了一句話啦政府負最終責任所以不會倒啊所以這叫假議題啦我想大委員這樣講議題可能不是科話啦當然是這樣子啊所謂政府負咱最終責任是指我們都要自然先努力讓這個機關永續經營就應該負自己的責任最後不得已呢才有政府負最終責任我想他法律的邏輯應該是這樣子啦"},{"start":19475.865,"end":19476.165,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19500.564,"end":19503.886,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":19526.045,"end":19532.673,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":19543.266,"end":19545.909,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":19559.701,"end":19576.711,"text":"勞保可以每年補一千多億為什麼公務的退府基金到現在為止都還不需要政府撥補然後你不願意給他stop herestop here也只到一百三十五年距離現在也有十幾年的光景了你是在緊張什麼對不對所以這個東西扯太遠只剩下一個政治鬥爭你們現在這個讓軍公教很心寒的就是"},{"start":19587.591,"end":19589.72,"text":"獨厚勞工然後專門殺軍公教"},{"start":19592.475,"end":19604.926,"text":"我為什麼早上提了民進黨在過去的兩千年開始台灣真的大幅的民主化之後到現在二十從兩千年開始佔據二十五年的光景民進黨執政十七年軍公教都是大家的子民啊中華民國的子民不是說軍公教一定挺誰挺誰是部長這個東西要拿掉啦大家學者出身要講真話"},{"start":19618.777,"end":19619.037,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19636.77,"end":19642.696,"text":"對我還講到大家先自己的機會責任也不夠就是政府要負最終的這個法律的規定政府要負最終的責任就是大家都不會倒你們一部講那麼多大家就安心了嘛啊那不都不會倒啦啊所以可以stop here不會倒啦差五年沒有差那麼多啦有差那麼多嗎沒有因為你為了這五年"},{"start":19662.134,"end":19662.695,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":19685.529,"end":19686.35,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19713.824,"end":19729.881,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長"},{"start":19734.15,"end":19740.1,"text":"稍開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來"},{"start":19744.815,"end":19765.871,"text":"請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了"},{"start":19766.471,"end":19776.007,"text":"十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有"},{"start":19777.094,"end":19801.472,"text":"這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律尤其是尤其是本席必須要再提醒喔"},{"start":19801.992,"end":19831.093,"text":"無論是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因公傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡或者是積勞過度以致死亡對不對那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官"},{"start":19832.301,"end":19851.413,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下"},{"start":19852.193,"end":19879.872,"text":"今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況"},{"start":19881.687,"end":19900.405,"text":"本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障跟後盾這是態度問題再來"},{"start":19902.418,"end":19929.135,"text":"部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一"},{"start":19930.396,"end":19948.494,"text":"就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續能用盡年度會提早4到5年提早4到5年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度"},{"start":19950.854,"end":19968.614,"text":"還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們達到140年這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產"},{"start":19971.892,"end":19987.421,"text":"法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任是政府有最後一個責任嘛所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法來協助不讓他破產"},{"start":19987.881,"end":19997.156,"text":"所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度調降還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該進的義務我們盡量先進這樣子"},{"start":20001.621,"end":20004.102,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":20026.707,"end":20046.069,"text":"合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫政府我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊"},{"start":20046.75,"end":20068.224,"text":"但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你107年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年"},{"start":20069.468,"end":20069.728,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20087.045,"end":20110.81,"text":"都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長"},{"start":20112.557,"end":20135.675,"text":"他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎"},{"start":20136.075,"end":20144.975,"text":"我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋"},{"start":20148.055,"end":20148.855,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20169.565,"end":20172.129,"text":"一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":20183.223,"end":20205.834,"text":"你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這裡是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點"},{"start":20206.974,"end":20233.911,"text":"最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請容許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高3兆元以上"},{"start":20234.793,"end":20252.751,"text":"那既然我們都講說創新度的新高整個費用完全的提升那當然在審理在編列的時候應該會有一些預算是不是能夠把錢花在刀口上的有一些預算可能是各部門就已經要認為說沒有必要花費的"},{"start":20253.712,"end":20269.456,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員"},{"start":20284.075,"end":20284.576,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":20301.355,"end":20304.859,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":20326.198,"end":20341.21,"text":"其他部分宣傳費用我也要增加宣傳費用一次增加將近一倍然後結果我們對於所謂的這個軍公教相關的這些基金的撥補反而我們要選擇一個20年的方案"},{"start":20343.716,"end":20361.6,"text":"當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長"},{"start":20365.41,"end":20392.006,"text":"尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在這邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整"},{"start":20393.459,"end":20393.679,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20423.519,"end":20424.66,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20439.773,"end":20462.171,"text":"當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這一個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來諮詢只是要講"},{"start":20464.741,"end":20465.321,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":20509.118,"end":20521.827,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是請那個施部長麻煩施部長議員好部長你好我想齁從2020年到2025年政府累計將撥補勞保3870億元那勞動部前部長這個何沛山說政府撥補勞保"},{"start":20533.596,"end":20535.877,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":20555.825,"end":20577.563,"text":"所有退休的軍公教的民眾裡面這些人的耳朵裡面格外的諷刺因為年金改革蔡英文前總統說現在不做馬上就會後悔那拖到現在賴總統執政後勞保年改一拖"},{"start":20578.755,"end":20582.578,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等一）委員"},{"start":20598.474,"end":20612.684,"text":"我跟委員報告因為老保的一個選擇是在行政院那我不是很清楚我在考試院的選區部所以那邊應該有他們一個規劃的一個方式其實齁頭到尾啊齁我們都知道"},{"start":20613.724,"end":20639.174,"text":"這是一場只針對軍公教那這個至於說這個勞的部分擱一邊因為勞很多人嘛一千多萬嘛那今天民進黨就是仗著叫砍殺軍公教那些其實齁他追溯喔對不對法律是不說既往的但是他已經退休然後你將他年金年年改年年砍"},{"start":20640.174,"end":20663.152,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體"},{"start":20668.937,"end":20674.118,"text":"御年御年御年御年御年御年御年御年"},{"start":20697.816,"end":20727.063,"text":"基金財務的一個沒有辦法永續所以從以前包括在這個107年以前就開始討論那現在勞保已經添了三千多億你怎麼不講都是年年補那以勞跟所有軍工教這樣是對他們是公平吧對不對因為你改革是全面性的改革你只有針對性的改革這樣叫做改革是嗎我是認為這是假改革"},{"start":20728.328,"end":20729.85,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20745.925,"end":20746.485,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":20769.096,"end":20789.087,"text":"國民黨絕對不反對改革但是改革必須要在公平正義的方向去走過去的蔡政府到現在的賴政府高喊都是改革但是只有找軍公教來下手污名化軍公教製造階級的對立勞保改革卻遲遲到現在"},{"start":20791.616,"end":20793.437,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":20810.808,"end":20830.953,"text":"那草也要有共識共同來誠實面對承擔改革此外省紀部也認為勞保撥補的金額相較基金財務缺口能有限那建議勞動部重啟改革並研擬具體的可行這個方向長期財務的撥補這個計畫那任市長你有什麼看法那個部長"},{"start":20837.128,"end":20856.954,"text":"老保的一個部分我相信這個社會上跟這個政府部門呢應該要會一起努力去做一個討論一起努力沒有用啦我要面對現實啦齁陳儒剛剛我所提齁他說2029年可能就會破產齁那你既然2029年會破產啊年年撥補啊其實撥補就是改革嗎對不對這個是很諷刺的"},{"start":20865.087,"end":20884.926,"text":"我希望部長你們要好好的探討怎麼去做讓這些退休的軍工教他比較心理上能夠平衡我認為這個很重要以上接下來我想麻煩黃國昌委員來代理主席"},{"start":20894.209,"end":20900.675,"text":"我們下一位請吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長"},{"start":20906.109,"end":20928.119,"text":"委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嗎那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嗎所以"},{"start":20932.121,"end":20932.601,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":20945.154,"end":20961.791,"text":"那這段時間我們就是國民黨團有提這個改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論"},{"start":20963.288,"end":20977.742,"text":"那其實這段時間啦你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身"},{"start":20979.183,"end":20996.69,"text":"當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法"},{"start":20997.19,"end":21016.062,"text":"但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立"},{"start":21017.583,"end":21039.194,"text":"然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況如果有一間公司跟他的員工講好你薪水多少退休金比例怎麼樣"},{"start":21040.054,"end":21043.777,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":21058.462,"end":21066.265,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":21084.622,"end":21107.925,"text":"那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點"},{"start":21108.814,"end":21114.717,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":21138.564,"end":21162.047,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件,在公務員說我們是沒有錢,或者是說有一些側翼現在開始就說我們在走回頭路,那這個說法是對的嗎?所以這就是為什麼國民黨會希望提出一個停止那個所得替代率逐年降低的一個主因。我想這是公共議題的討論,那我們就是提出我們的質疑點是這個。"},{"start":21163.368,"end":21191.176,"text":"那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法"},{"start":21191.596,"end":21191.896,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":21208.474,"end":21234.022,"text":"全勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫"},{"start":21235.743,"end":21263.022,"text":"那我手上的資料是這樣啦就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦"},{"start":21263.863,"end":21278.244,"text":"然後退撫基金現在又面臨到沒有新人批撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?"},{"start":21280.791,"end":21304.866,"text":"新制的部分現在就是根據法律政府一定要分年撥補那政府去年今年的預算就是以20年的概念在做撥補那我們希望他明年以後至少都比這個還好啦我們努力來跟主義總署溝通那我想這大概就是剛委員提到我們的基金就是因為有獨立新制出來再加上如果停止的話他就提早"},{"start":21305.905,"end":21322.454,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":21332.7,"end":21348.149,"text":"社會再做一些討論那如果大家再做一些網上討論我覺得我都尊重我都覺得蠻好的一個方式那我想齁就常其實商場上常有一句話啦就是說還是這樣麻煩小聲一點因為會干擾到我思考謝謝不好意思這樣齁就是說那個不好意思時間暫停喔"},{"start":21352.199,"end":21366.092,"text":"那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個"},{"start":21369.415,"end":21370.296,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":21397.113,"end":21408.057,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":21426.67,"end":21450.41,"text":"我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活"},{"start":21451.01,"end":21478.475,"text":"可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我在這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下"},{"start":21480.21,"end":21506.02,"text":"一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說"},{"start":21507.142,"end":21522.333,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案（事由．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案�"},{"start":21536.924,"end":21541.031,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":21552.505,"end":21579.293,"text":"這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行"},{"start":21579.773,"end":21603.274,"text":"那我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人那這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠"},{"start":21604.255,"end":21608.357,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":21626.044,"end":21627.344,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":21645.891,"end":21667.769,"text":"那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人"},{"start":21669.107,"end":21696.343,"text":"每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是個名目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%"},{"start":21700.54,"end":21715.811,"text":"實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方"},{"start":21716.351,"end":21740.664,"text":"那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那"},{"start":21741.916,"end":21763.157,"text":"這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":21766.118,"end":21779.567,"text":"但對公務人員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話好那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明好謝謝謝謝吳宗憲委員那現在請吳委員回來繼續當主席下一位我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":21809.695,"end":21810.516,"text":"撫卹法定人數不足"},{"start":21821.203,"end":21837.875,"text":"這個還是要諮詢部長因為這個是你的業務主要的業務人事長是間接也是主要好我們這個上次我也跟你提過那時候是主要是諮詢秘書長考試院的秘書長105年6月8號"},{"start":21845.95,"end":21851.793,"text":"法第十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":21863.439,"end":21864.78,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":21883.415,"end":21911.418,"text":"還有勞工也在這個包括移民企業雇主相關的這些代表都成為總統府國家年金改革委員會然後由副總統當時的副總統陳建仁擔任這個召集委員召集人總共召開了多少次的會議呢二十次啊"},{"start":21913.25,"end":21931.35,"text":"總共召開了二十次的會議。第二十次的會議是在105年11月10號。所以這個時間是很密集的、很積極的來去開會。那為什麼還要找勞工呢?因為一樣的。"},{"start":21932.714,"end":21950.329,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體"},{"start":21955.595,"end":21984.336,"text":"所謂的那個勞保或是工保這些也都面臨今天一直談論的這些破產的問題都有勞工的也不是也是所以起碼我們如果從現在的數據來看勞工因為當時執政的政府當時的行政院"},{"start":21985.336,"end":21996.682,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,並不提出相關年改的這些勞保的勞工的部分所以這幾年撥補2670億透過人民的納稅錢去撥補這個我支持我支持但是為什麼"},{"start":22008.757,"end":22032.884,"text":"針對軍公教錦囂卻不是同一個方式去解決卻不是用撥補的方式這個就是非常大的一個偏頗對軍公教錦囂而言尤其是已經退休的軍公教錦囂還受及既往啊好我們就接下來談這個"},{"start":22035.932,"end":22062.706,"text":"總統府所成立的國家年金改革委員會開了二十次會議考試院依據也就是參考依據了這個年改會議國家年金改革委員會的相關的這些討論的結果你們提出了當時的考試院提出了版本送到立法院來審查"},{"start":22065.312,"end":22087.759,"text":"審查的結果當時民進黨的立法委員絕對多數在這個場合司法法制委員會三天三夜開會結果用誰的版本是用段宜康及其他民進黨立委所提出來的版本來通過"},{"start":22089.585,"end":22095.229,"text":"法定人數不足以採取公務人員退休資遣撫卹法定人數不足以採取公務人員退休資遣撫卹法定人數不足以採取公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":22119.833,"end":22132.229,"text":"卻是立法委員的版本而不是總統府的國家年金改革委員會所以這個部分既然實施已經這麼多年了"},{"start":22133.345,"end":22149.648,"text":"就應該要來再檢討現在這個時刻就是檢討的時刻所以我們要好好的審查這個我們這段時間一些我們立委的一個一些提案以上"},{"start":22152.488,"end":22165.64,"text":"謝謝,那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員下一位我們請柯智恩委員柯智恩委員柯智恩委員那接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":22183.004,"end":22200.301,"text":"請市長姐、市部長麻煩部長委員好你好最近很多民調你有看最近在討論說金剛價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇你有看這些最近的民調嗎"},{"start":22203.291,"end":22225.741,"text":"大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定"},{"start":22226.974,"end":22227.534,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22237.588,"end":22238.969,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":22257.398,"end":22258.518,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22283.303,"end":22300.135,"text":"公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把它從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年"},{"start":22306.34,"end":22312.524,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":22334.465,"end":22344.97,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":22364.298,"end":22382.348,"text":"好 那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五零如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛 對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少"},{"start":22383.939,"end":22392.185,"text":"現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨當初多數當初通過了這個我再算一次給大家看"},{"start":22404.71,"end":22429.73,"text":"本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了五趴一年一趴對不對民進黨把八十趴的基準變成七十五趴再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版"},{"start":22430.831,"end":22459.158,"text":"考試院是我們的主管機關啊他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對啊現在董事長才考試院出來版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是不想民進黨執政民進黨說會破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人"},{"start":22460.202,"end":22479.016,"text":"回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到 砍凍凍為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好 更重要的博定我要問你問題當初為什麼 博定我知道 我問你了 你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛 對不對你也是專家"},{"start":22490.345,"end":22492.689,"text":"現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年連年都超收對不對?每個人要領到六千塊啊"},{"start":22501.148,"end":22523.508,"text":"最近這五年平均超出的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候超出幾百億,有時候超出四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均超出多少錢?大致上一年。最近五年一年平均超出多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方了,中央不會受到影響"},{"start":22525.014,"end":22525.875,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22539.568,"end":22560.298,"text":"經過這幾年,財政沒有困難嘛,對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦。基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦。那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革,真的會有困難。欸,博定,你覺得那個前勞動部部長何佩桑怎麼說?"},{"start":22561.417,"end":22563.258,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":22581.135,"end":22581.355,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22602.128,"end":22616.844,"text":"這是第一例對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全系部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給力爭呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說"},{"start":22617.865,"end":22618.165,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22638.157,"end":22638.277,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22652.731,"end":22658.414,"text":"所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛"},{"start":22679.807,"end":22680.387,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":22703.268,"end":22703.468,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22726.345,"end":22726.845,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22744.421,"end":22766.292,"text":"從中央政府總預算快速的增加106年的不到兩兆現在是兩兆七千多億明年要增加四千多億已經到了三兆一千多億了怎麼會沒錢這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國政府感冒錢"},{"start":22768.291,"end":22768.891,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22796.291,"end":22797.432,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文宣告"},{"start":22822.489,"end":22848.55,"text":"能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定 多謝老爺好不好"},{"start":22849.17,"end":22850.731,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這一個學習部首部長"},{"start":22876.486,"end":22883.736,"text":"市長,今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的圖片第一個"},{"start":22886.541,"end":22914.195,"text":"這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革"},{"start":22914.935,"end":22925.764,"text":"然後在2012年11月的時候蠻久他說這個年間制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心"},{"start":22926.84,"end":22947.959,"text":"然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話"},{"start":22948.8,"end":22950.561,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":22975.278,"end":22989.765,"text":"這個若以至少每年五百億的規模來估算,這六年半的時間到現在為止,軍公教這個節省下可預註這個退府基金的金額可望突破三千億大關,那這個數字對不對?"},{"start":22991.909,"end":23014.804,"text":"差不多是這個數字差不多就是說我們年改省下來的這些退休金那我們預注到這一個退撫基金裡面去然後再加上政府還有撥補那所以說這大概6年半以來你們下面有這個你們的這個年改措施的收入這個財務收益這是有超過大概3000億左右嗎對有那對於這個退撫基金來講"},{"start":23017.265,"end":23018.708,"text":"當時民進黨通過年金改革的時候,在野黨有沒有去做釋憲?"},{"start":23031.886,"end":23050.871,"text":"那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783"},{"start":23055.012,"end":23082.178,"text":"那我看了一下解釋的這個要點他說關於這個法律不受既往信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權都合憲嘛對不對對那個三號解釋都支持合憲因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施就是說知道要改但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案所以大法官是支持的是合憲的"},{"start":23083.198,"end":23109.975,"text":"所以我剛剛陸陸續續有聽到有些委員講說違反信賴保護原則違反比例原則侵佔這個人民的財產權但是我看這個大法官的視線裡面對於這部分來講都認為是合憲的嘛是不是那我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率"},{"start":23110.697,"end":23130.202,"text":"要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴他就要把它停止第二個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率達正負5%的標準"},{"start":23131.562,"end":23149.14,"text":"再往下縮減有的到百分之二有的到百分之三不定第三為月退金給付金額檢討年限我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後"},{"start":23149.76,"end":23153.102,"text":"會有什麼樣的影響?我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概這個會提早4到5年我們特府經濟會破產會用盡"},{"start":23178.775,"end":23189.082,"text":"那其實就是說在野黨也有提到說那這個檢討的這個年限請問一下我們從這一個年金改革法案通過之後我們有沒有做過檢討"},{"start":23190.213,"end":23194.235,"text":"檢討主要就是說根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察"},{"start":23216.184,"end":23216.204,"text":"檢討報告"},{"start":23231.782,"end":23252.28,"text":"再請教一下部長現在所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加如果替代率不再降低那對於民間的勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評"},{"start":23253.328,"end":23278.87,"text":"我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人"},{"start":23280.191,"end":23283.254,"text":"撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":23304.232,"end":23304.793,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":23324.993,"end":23352.113,"text":"四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這是這個這邊是謝謝主席謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較沒有沒有這樣已經比這個內政委員還要好了六十幾位了好那謝謝那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言那因為我們今天是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘"},{"start":23362.659,"end":23365.881,"text":"好,稍微我們請部長麻煩部長部長好如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了"},{"start":23390.973,"end":23392.254,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23411.195,"end":23439.334,"text":"那又經過這個去年的一些改變那你們也提到說這個要用慶啦要到一百三十幾年嘛民國大概一百快接近一百四十年就改變完以後現在現在大概到一百四十年那如果按照這個今天我們討論的這幾個版本你覺得哪一個版本啊"},{"start":23440.273,"end":23441.233,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":23467.922,"end":23468.002,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":23475.969,"end":23497.201,"text":"這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦"},{"start":23502.245,"end":23521.183,"text":"這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥 對不對"},{"start":23523.16,"end":23543.152,"text":"租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。"},{"start":23543.973,"end":23572.755,"text":"OK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那135年就會掉掉本來是還可以動到80嘛對阿就是會在135的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk"},{"start":23573.652,"end":23594.563,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":23604.017,"end":23604.357,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":23628.297,"end":23630.699,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":23646.872,"end":23646.912,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":23665.023,"end":23666.564,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23688.221,"end":23688.842,"text":"公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":23714.935,"end":23732.61,"text":"這全序部人事總書都要合調一下,大家算出來,因為這錢是公務人員的,不是外面大家,是公務人員的,算出一個最好的方式,不要說現在的公務員要越提越多,去補那個已經退休的"},{"start":23733.274,"end":23748.499,"text":"已經退休了,他現在,我們應該改革之後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你們說還是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋啦,因為錢就是這麼多。"},{"start":23760.343,"end":23762.907,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23775.43,"end":23799.886,"text":"相關的利害關係人,你不去找那些退休的你也要找那些限職的限職的你不去找那些高級官員你也要找那些六職等、七職等的九職等做客廳的、檢任官的、十二職的大家各自有各自的盤算嘛因爲他們自己的生活大家尋求一個比較好的方法讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點好不好,好,義兄謝謝"},{"start":23803.568,"end":23825.464,"text":"謝王委員王委員好那下一位我們請林柱英委員謝主席主席邀請我們司部長麻煩司部長"},{"start":23829.087,"end":23830.048,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23845.714,"end":23859.976,"text":"第六第七條條文修正草案案。那麼在第六第七年的這個過程當中不知道我們全序部當中有沒有委外來做民調或者是有沒有掌握到一些民調就是真的如同現在國民黨提案委員認為的"},{"start":23861.218,"end":23885.49,"text":"真的導致了這些退休的軍公教人員尤其是公務員造成他們的生活困頓或是生活不易甚至於說隨著我們所謂講的物價上漲造成了他們活不下去嗎又或者是讓他們的生活上面出現了什麼困難嗎那權敘部針對這個部分有沒有什麼樣的了解"},{"start":23886.07,"end":23904.212,"text":"我跟委員報告我想我們的法例明文規定即使是退休人員在年改後他都還是隨著物價指數5%左右就開始或者每四年會檢討所以都還是有定期的一個調整並不是沒有沒有調整那至於說每個人退休所得有多少因為會跟他"},{"start":23904.733,"end":23909.079,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":23924.568,"end":23927.029,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23945.456,"end":23970.022,"text":"好言下之意就是其實在當年年改的時候也有顧及到就是所謂物價波動這個部分雖然說我們的所得替代率是有在逐年的下降但是另外一方面隨著物價該上漲該調整的我們還是有做適時的反應對嗎沒有錯而且這是全世界幾乎主要國家都是對退休人員所得調整的方式"},{"start":23970.702,"end":23989.594,"text":"所以說本席要讓你來看一個這是幾次我找到的在2018年的時候針對軍公教的年改當時是55%的民眾滿意那麼在到2024年的5月那麼其實還是有六成的民眾覺得年改事實上這樣的一條改革的道路"},{"start":23990.535,"end":23995.017,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":24014.506,"end":24034.197,"text":"這整體來說他不是一個職業的對立他其實是一個解決世代差異或者是解決世代上面的問題因為我知道其實在台灣的社會當中我曾經聽過一個形容那就是每一個家庭裡面你都可以找到一位軍公教"},{"start":24035.373,"end":24059.007,"text":"例如本席家裡有人是軍人也有人是教師所以其實這個題目當你一定要面臨要做改革的時候其實是跟我們全國的每一個人都有關所以為什麼今天值得在這裡詢答也希望部長能夠來做一些回應提供我們更多的資料跟資訊因為這不只是整個國家整體的問題"},{"start":24060.988,"end":24078.057,"text":"更是接下來年輕世代如果他要報考公務員如果他要成為教師或者是他要從軍報國的時候他所擔憂的那就是接下來當我年資滿了可以退休了當我服役完了之後我要退役的時候"},{"start":24078.817,"end":24082.458,"text":"我的所謂未來的退休金有沒有保障我想部長你也能夠同意當時我們從2017、2018在推年改的時候其實想法都是一樣的我們要解決的是讓它能夠永續所以這也是為什麼我相信今天質詢當中這個圖這一句話部長已經看了沒要看啦我是第幾個我是第20個起來的啦可能看第20遍啦啦齁那"},{"start":24104.226,"end":24127.058,"text":"馬英九也講過雖然說馬英九現在講的話跟過去講的話不一定是一樣的但是這個東西就實實在在的可以感受到他也不是藍綠的問題他也不是職業別的問題他是整體世代跟整體台灣人的問題主席站起來我會儘量遵守時間包括當年關中也講了就是政府讓你養老"},{"start":24127.978,"end":24133.284,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":24148.22,"end":24166.726,"text":"但是現值的是三萬九九指等是六萬三千五那麼現役的是四萬七十二指等是七點八萬然後現役的是五點三萬我先說了我沒有要挑起任何世代上面的差距我只想問以現在這樣的數據跟數字的話"},{"start":24171.229,"end":24171.349,"text":"三）委員張智倫"},{"start":24186.309,"end":24201.062,"text":"我用觀眾的話來講以現在現在這樣的一個狀況那麼我們當然希望讓退休的公務員能夠獲得一定的溫飽獲得一定的生活必須而且要給他尊嚴"},{"start":24202.779,"end":24218.816,"text":"那麼這樣子如果說依照現行的提案修法然後又改成所得替代率不要再往下再往下降的時候這個會不會變成是退休的比在工作的還要領得多討論退休制度的退休者那個所得方案合理化會計"},{"start":24225.623,"end":24226.344,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":24236.589,"end":24263.725,"text":"所以這也是本席希望今天我們透過尋答主席的安排我們讓很多事情能夠清楚的被社會大眾瞭解因為就像我說的那句話每一個人家庭都一定找得到一位軍公教人員所以我們希望的是整體的社會過去的爭端爭議不要再起而且在公酬的部分其實都是一個合理的狀況也讓退休的軍公教能夠獲得一定的保障謝謝"},{"start":24265.599,"end":24267.502,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24293.533,"end":24316.823,"text":"有請部長和人事總長。你好,我想請問有關於霸凌申訴機制的一個建立狀況。就是說昨天卓院長是有回到媒體的提問的時候有提到說人種已經成立了一個通報平台,近日也會開通,那裡面也有包含建立所謂的申訴機制。"},{"start":24318.064,"end":24339.859,"text":"但我想要跟部長來討論還有總長來討論一件事情就是說在我們的性騷法性騷擾防治法裡面在我們如果是一般性的性騷擾在他知心兩年之內他都還可以去申訴然後如果是我們是全市性騷擾的話是三年內可是我們現在這個只有一年內"},{"start":24341.42,"end":24370.076,"text":"我們是不是可以比照性騷擾防治法來去把它調整到全市的性騷擾的部分一樣是拉在三年內了我跟委員報告一下事實上目前在處理那個霸凌的大概兩年了三年了我們都同步在處理我們沒有直接那我們這個是不是既然實務上已經在處理我們這一個也只是你們修改一下就可以去調整的部分是不是也可以一併跟進呢既然實務上已經這樣運作了嗎"},{"start":24373.923,"end":24396.875,"text":"這個我跟委員報告一下,因為每一個機關他定的一個年限事實上是不一樣的。每一個機關定的不一樣。那為什麼會是不一樣呢?沒有,本來霸凌的就是由服務機關本身他第一線去處理。那我們人事總署會另外成立一個會總的一個申報的平台。"},{"start":24398.424,"end":24417.584,"text":"但是我想因為既然因為我想人事一條邊嘛也是你們一直慣行的一個模式嘛那為什麼現在就變成說又要回到各機關來去規範呢他是不是有可能是信騷本來就是這樣信騷本來就是這樣對我們現在講的是霸凌嘛我們現在講的是霸凌是不是可以比照嘛"},{"start":24418.543,"end":24434.536,"text":"法令的部分目前還是由服務機關直接在處理第一線那如果當事人他去申訴受理機關他沒有處理就可以新的管道到人事總處來我們會收案"},{"start":24437.59,"end":24463.183,"text":"我現在有點不太明白因為你的申訴機制是這樣子可是又到各個地方又是有不同的沒關係這個部分我們可能會後再持續的我來跟跟您請教好了好不好謝謝委員但我想要先來回請問一個現在比較關注的就是說我想請問一下今天其實來了非常多的機關的人事首長我想請問一下現場的各位你們現在正在處理有在處理霸凌案的人可不可以舉個手"},{"start":24465.128,"end":24467.749,"text":"現在有在處理相關的霸凌案的可以舉手嗎?都沒有嗎?因為想說我這邊收到蠻多通報的,都沒有是有點離譜的。好,可以謝謝,請放下。那我想問一下,現在"},{"start":24491.714,"end":24495.148,"text":"現在各個機關你們都在處理這個霸凌案那你們"},{"start":24497.584,"end":24521.185,"text":"這個機制的建立我想問一下你們現在在調查期間你們有權利可以去要求行為人可以暫停職務嗎?可以去暫停可以暫時調查限職嗎?可以去要求先請假接受調查嗎?請問這些如果你們現在有做這些事情的話我想請問一下你們的法令依據又是什麼?可以用的工具又是什麼?你們都沒有跟各機關人士單位告訴這個部分我是說這句話我是要問一下"},{"start":24522.827,"end":24538.078,"text":"我想請教一下,如果我們現在各個機關都有用這些手段的話,這些法律依據到底是什麼?人事長,他們現在可以使用這些依據嗎?可以使用這些工具嗎?行為人被調查期間,除非是有重大就會先免職,沒有的話就是繼續任用。"},{"start":24549.11,"end":24564.91,"text":"那這個是法令依據是什麼我覺得現在大家都會有點頭痛因為是沒有相關的一些法令依據跟相關的這些工具他們並不是那麼清楚有沒有可能在一個月以內建立目前因應這個霸凌機制建立所需要的一些相關的法令依據跟工具呢"},{"start":24566.698,"end":24567.238,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":24590.668,"end":24610.533,"text":"行政院內部會先討論行政院內部討論完以後會跟考試院再來談要在哪一個法裡面去有一個法的依據因為有法的依據大家在執行上會比較會比較有所遵循所以我想我可以再花點時間了解一下那現在進度呢因為聽起來有在討論你們依據"},{"start":24612.458,"end":24612.839,"text":"稍後會完成嗎?"},{"start":24622.645,"end":24623.326,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":24650.174,"end":24650.334,"text":"法律依據"},{"start":24670.205,"end":24671.246,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24690.098,"end":24691.219,"text":"稍後請黃秀芳委員發言稍後請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":24715.066,"end":24717.368,"text":"退休基金會提早破產,會提早到幾年?"},{"start":24736.625,"end":24736.805,"text":"三）委員張智倫"},{"start":24756.244,"end":24770.71,"text":"這中間的時候其實大家一直在討論這個年改年金改革那也透過這個當時的這個副總統陳建仁副總統召集這個年金改革會議那一個一個的提出討論"},{"start":24771.69,"end":24789.227,"text":"再交由立院來審理修正通過年金改革的方案。我相信已經實施了六、七年的時間,最主要是希望年金能夠永續,尤其是我們現在是老年化、少子化,"},{"start":24789.787,"end":24791.348,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":24816.459,"end":24818.281,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":24837.824,"end":24855.102,"text":"所以年改的方案其實他就明白講只要年改每一年度節省下來的經費通通全數預註為給基金所以你可以理解他只是不用撥補這個字眼所以他每年都穩定了這些"},{"start":24856.203,"end":24857.464,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":24875.959,"end":24876.179,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":24896.13,"end":24904.617,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":24920.93,"end":24936.057,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件不符合現在的這個他的這個生活費然後可能會造成他的這個生活會受到一些影響那我想請教就是說針對這些退休的公務人員所提出來的你們有在這個每年針對這個物價指數然後針對這個退休金有做一個調整嗎"},{"start":24940.789,"end":24965.391,"text":"我們法律本來就規定兩個條件要去調整一個就是說當物價指數累積到5%的時候我們就要調整另外即使沒有到5%每四年都應該去檢討所以我們過去六七年調整兩次第一次調整的時候其實物價指數沒有到5%是四年我們去調整第二次因為後最近幾年物價波動多所以5%的時候我們就調整我想是這樣一個方式"},{"start":24967.512,"end":24993.726,"text":"我認為在六七年前這個年金改革當時民進黨執政黨非常負責任的將這個年金改革做一個希望說這個年金是能夠永續很可惜就是說國民黨跟民眾黨如果在這時候又要走回頭路的話其實對現任的公務人員其實是不公平的所以我們希望說這個可能大家要三思謝謝"},{"start":24996.732,"end":24998.679,"text":"一具先前宣告我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":25026.164,"end":25039.331,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25048.449,"end":25061.362,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25065.746,"end":25089.946,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智�"},{"start":25090.987,"end":25091.929,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":25110.674,"end":25121.645,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":25126.922,"end":25129.004,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25148.135,"end":25156.218,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25175.307,"end":25180.233,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25190.866,"end":25215.138,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草"},{"start":25218.28,"end":25221.444,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":25234.198,"end":25240.361,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25261.452,"end":25280.976,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文"},{"start":25291.478,"end":25299.8,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25335.457,"end":25336.958,"text":"稍後請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":25350.393,"end":25368.703,"text":"主席各位大家午安喔是不是請我們這個人事總處人事長麻煩人事長部長你很開心喔終於可以喝一口水了叫人事長幫你代打OK來人事長"},{"start":25370.091,"end":25381.863,"text":"是這樣子的就是說我們勞動部因為這個勞發署那台北分署發生了無性員工這個不幸的事件"},{"start":25383.452,"end":25404.916,"text":"這裏面的調查報告我們都很不滿意當然這個跟你也有一點相關這個調查報告行政調查報告現在已經成為謝芬署長法律上攻防拿回來打著勞動部的調查報告回來法律上再打這個勞動部一把的這個鎖本的這個依據"},{"start":25408.277,"end":25425.369,"text":"那這裡面我比較在乎的是說不是只有霸凌的申訴的制度其中有一項我特別看到的是說他因為承辦這個資訊業務的計畫那他的直屬長官叫他限期要繳出來"},{"start":25427.17,"end":25442.438,"text":"實際上他是一個很認真而且求好心切的不是擺爛的那種公務員所以剛好是相反的因為他很認真所以他覺得他沒有辦法完成辜負了這樣的一個期待那這樣子"},{"start":25443.749,"end":25462.902,"text":"但是呢檢視一下他們那個單位大家檢討說他們那個單位的人力配置就是說他的業務很多也很繁雜他的單位他的辦公室裡面有五個人力還有其他五個人力可是那五個呢是業務承攬就是說勞務承攬的人員"},{"start":25466.704,"end":25467.425,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":25483.26,"end":25483.96,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":25503.376,"end":25517.133,"text":"我今天有質詢是沒有正照的不專業的未來的失業者在做現在的幫現在的失業者找工作的工作那這個裡面呢變成勞務承攬有一個問題就是"},{"start":25520.727,"end":25524.211,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25541.428,"end":25545.531,"text":"所以對公務人員來講從派遣變成勞務承攬他反而有很多的限制他不能夠指揮監督所以他能夠幫忙公務人員解決問題的人手變少而且少很多"},{"start":25564.523,"end":25582.439,"text":"所以這個勞役上非常的不均那很多單位是一個公務人員指揮六個十個這個勞務承攬的以前還是指揮沒有指揮現在沒有指揮權以前還是指揮這個派遣公司的員工的現在完全都沒有這個問題你怎麼看"},{"start":25584.589,"end":25598.487,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,大概就分兩個部分,就是說這些派遣的或者勞務承攬的這些人力,事實上我們現在已經有在內部在檢討,因為遺害用這種人用了很多人。"},{"start":25601.923,"end":25610.928,"text":"本身正職的公務人員的比例相對低。這問題我們內部已經在討論準備要跟勞動部來討論看他那個未來的人力需求是怎樣。這部分我們已經初步上已經有規劃出,因為他的慷慨,他的組織,整個勞動部跟勞發署他整個組織結構人力需求我們已經在盤。第二個部分"},{"start":25631.258,"end":25659.642,"text":"派一個分屬的一個資訊人員去做那個政策規劃我是覺得這個是有檢討的空間的。人事長我看你的資歷喔你是資訊專家然後你在國稅局的資歷相當的豐富那你相當對於這個資訊的業務也很熟悉在人事總處應該也有資訊上管理上的專業你就這個事情有沒有辦法再更精進的看法"},{"start":25663.326,"end":25678.975,"text":"這件事我在看人工智慧的這種政策規劃的loadingsupport應該是在勞發署、署本部或者是在勞動部的執行處不能丟給一個市級機關的人市級機關基本上就是說你系統設計好之後"},{"start":25682.637,"end":25690.76,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":25711.407,"end":25726.112,"text":"核心業務等了一個四級機關的一個公務人員去搬,搬不出來,然後才發生不幸的事件,他是導火線嘛。結果三級機關沒有統整這個需求,在更上面的勞動部也沒有,不過這個"},{"start":25727.312,"end":25746.582,"text":"這個就不歸你管了我比較想的是派遣跟承攬以外就是說你說勞發署這個人事業務我覺得很奇怪因為你們就原有所控制在那裡你們也不增加人事費用可是明明都有人事的需求在那裡那你們就覺得說還要增加1.5個月年終獎金還要很多這個額外的成本還得利用派遣"},{"start":25753.166,"end":25753.526,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25762.013,"end":25785.18,"text":"根本上我們政府的運作是由各種類型的,或是科技就來的、或是業聘的、或是業務的,各式各樣的人組成。不過這一次的事件,我想我們內部已經重新再來檢視整個勞動部,甚至老華署他真正需要的人力,結果我們會協助他去做。"},{"start":25785.88,"end":25792.987,"text":"我為什麼問這個問題是因為核心業務啊有些單位的核心業務啊是以前是派遣的人在蓋章的有現在可能是勞務承攬的人在蓋章的啊你要說要核心業務給這種人在蓋章他要怎麼去負責扛責我就搞不清楚了"},{"start":25804.403,"end":25815.512,"text":"我不曉得現在我們會一併納件來檢討啦就是大家都要開這個錢這樣說還不可以再增加臨時支出啊明明就需要這個臨時支出你還說不可以增加啊啊約聘僱也沒有還不是約聘僱去蓋那個核心業務的章勒是派遣和那個業務承攬的勞務承攬的人在蓋那個章這樣合理嗎所以臨時的這個僱員約聘僱都沒有辦法"},{"start":25833.086,"end":25833.426,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25860.152,"end":25862.273,"text":"稍後請陳秀寶委員發言。謝主席,請詮釋部司部長。麻煩部長。"},{"start":25883.004,"end":25905.448,"text":"三（委員好部長好辛苦了部長根據你們今天提出的報告所載2013年的時候考試院是不是就有針對月退休金期制年齡偏低月退休所得替代率偏高以及退休金的安全準備不足等等問題來提出公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的草案是不是"},{"start":25906.369,"end":25908.37,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":25933.9,"end":25959.426,"text":"對,因為如果用欠一支就是那個基金零啊那當時你們提出來的時候2013年的執政執政是馬一九政府嘛那時候立法院的多數應該是國民黨但是那個時候呢他們是完全執政國民黨完全執政但是他並沒有去正視這個全序部提出的這個退府基金即將用盡就是有破產的這個嚴重的問題他們也堅持不願意改革也沒有顧到公務員的權益"},{"start":25960.146,"end":25972.243,"text":"是一直到2016年蔡英文政府上任之後呢發現退撫基金的這個問題來才提出一系列的年輕的改革讓退撫基金得以延續下一個世代來保障現任公務員的權益這個部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":25974.925,"end":25994.706,"text":"我想應該講全區部站在基金管理的方式很早就提出這個立法案那時候全區部也考慮提出了但是那時候的立法院並沒有去審理他部長我想請教您在停止調降替代率之後退撫基金大概在什麼時候會用完"},{"start":25995.747,"end":26016.872,"text":"因為提早4到5年所以大概以現在來估算大概在135年前後那到時候就等於說現任的公務員退休後是完全領不到退休金如果我們的這個退伏基金是用慶了破產了的話包含現在我們在場的所有的議事人員部長您身邊的這些事務官們他們的退休生活是就沒有保障了"},{"start":26018.032,"end":26044.874,"text":"國民黨現在不負責任在喊說要政府撥補退補基金在112年未提存的退休金精算負債是高達2.9兆已經將近是我國一年行政院的總預算國民黨這邊他們主張要修才化法已經將行政院的預算大幅的下放到各縣市也會影響到行政院所推行的各項的政策在教育、在文化、在運動、在科技等等預算都受到影響"},{"start":26045.655,"end":26073.298,"text":"那現在又提出了停止調降替代率那等到退撫基金的缺口大了之後一定會要求行政院來撥補那到時候行政院所推行的各種政策是不是就全數要停擺我們真的是非常擔心因像我們教文我們剛通過學生輔導法我們要補足專輔教師跟專輔人力的這個經費還有現在現行的縮減公私立大學學費的差距的方案青壯世代的心理健康支持方案以及"},{"start":26073.598,"end":26099.298,"text":"像太空科技、AI科技以及像金創計劃這些的預算其實國民黨完全無視這個是大幅的影響到全民的權益那部長在你們的權序部的報告中裡面有指出替代率上限已經是明目效果其實更應該重視的是退休公務員實際領到的月退休金那我想請教部長現在退休公務員實際領到的月退休金有沒有減少"},{"start":26102.071,"end":26105.364,"text":"應該這樣講,今年來講全部的退休人員已經差不多七成以上都差不多五萬塊了。"},{"start":26106.335,"end":26132.982,"text":"事實上越晚退休的公務人員其實他是領的退休金當然是越高對沒錯齁其實實際上領到的月退休金呢是持續增加了112年新退休者平均的月退休金額有5.85萬那在113年實質的退休金所得多數還是高於5.1萬那其實在少子化的時代齁如果我們停止調降這個替代率那未來的現任公務員退休的時候到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":26133.482,"end":26137.045,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":26160.902,"end":26182.163,"text":"我們不能走回頭路所以我們看看我們身邊我們周圍的公務員們我們必須共同維護基金的永續重視世代正義才能保障全民的權益部長您認為呢好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝那下一位我們請沈博洋委員發言"},{"start":26192.028,"end":26192.268,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26213.337,"end":26224.768,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":26239.301,"end":26241.482,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第18次全體委員會議"},{"start":26259.339,"end":26288.105,"text":"這段時間退休其實說真的年改完以後退休因為我們年改到現在總共限職人員調整的以明年再加進來預計到14%的薪水所以意思就是說他的本俸就調了14%那我們是本俸乘以2來算退休金所以最近這幾年其實以他所以為什麼剛剛會講說平均的112年的實職拿的退休人會拿到5.8萬左右其實理由就是這樣因為"},{"start":26289.165,"end":26289.405,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26309.821,"end":26310.121,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26328.506,"end":26334.188,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26354.733,"end":26355.053,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26372.782,"end":26374.082,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":26402.788,"end":26407.851,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":26428.763,"end":26431.525,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":26448.26,"end":26448.941,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26475.241,"end":26502.508,"text":"謝謝,那我們下一位請蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員接下來我們請郭育晴委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":26505.788,"end":26507.089,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26528.112,"end":26540.935,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。况此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此"},{"start":26556.798,"end":26562.483,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":26585.002,"end":26611.823,"text":"這個可能這一個選項就沒辦法了對不對好那我們再來看第二個選項好了齁那第二個選項是我們要提高現職的軍公教人員他們的繳納的金額好那這個部分對於現職的軍公教他們還在他們的工作崗位上那麼以現在高考三級第六職等本奉一級的薪水來講好了啦齁那這個部分呢他每一個月大概都要繳到將近3700塊錢"},{"start":26614.085,"end":26614.745,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26631.412,"end":26632.493,"text":"第三個解方有可能是延後退休的年齡"},{"start":26658.132,"end":26658.292,"text":"法律已經這樣規定了"},{"start":26682.567,"end":26695.452,"text":"稍後我會提到另外一個問題了現行的退休所得替代率對於公務人員的生活有沒有一些影響呢或是對於勞工的部分他有沒有覺得相對被剝奪感呢"},{"start":26696.092,"end":26698.553,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":26715.043,"end":26715.524,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26734.211,"end":26759.511,"text":"這個有沒有相對的被剝奪感我想勞工如果在這個部分如果還覺得自己沒有被剝奪感那真的叫做佛心來著啦我想這個也是我特別點出這樣子的一個問題更不用講跟現職我們軍公教的人員來講我想這個受僱光是勞工的部分他的平均薪資是四萬六千多還不到剛剛講的軍公教退休的五萬一勞工會不會跳腳"},{"start":26761.363,"end":26763.504,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26788.208,"end":26796.874,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了那今天司法及法制委員會就是針對幾位委員針對這個公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的相關條文進行就是這個修正草案的一個討論那白話講就是針對之前的這個年金改革他們希望就是再把它恢復就對了是不是"},{"start":26813.788,"end":26814.27,"text":"這幾個條文法案（"},{"start":26820.612,"end":26848.351,"text":"對阿就是要再把他翻案就對了啦要改回去啦走回頭路啦那我想先請問部長你要簡單的就是簡短時間說一下當年我們進行年輕改革為什麼會推動這樣的一個制度是不是可以簡單講一下我覺得要推動這個制度最重要當然我們很早在就已經先做精算提出預警就是說如果不做改革的話你一定你可能基金會很早就用盡那為什麼造成這個問題因為"},{"start":26850.452,"end":26864.897,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會"},{"start":26880.316,"end":26880.936,"text":"稍後的年輕世代的公務人員"},{"start":26896.886,"end":26897.767,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":26915.982,"end":26939.283,"text":"教職退輔基金和勞保基金會在2027年破產而公職退輔基金也會在2031年破產這是蠻英久說的然後他也說下任總統或下下任總統遲早都會碰到這個問題社會在這段期間會長期惶恐不安所以他也是主張要進行年金改革的"},{"start":26939.872,"end":26940.892,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":26962.381,"end":26985.132,"text":"就算說背負著說得罪公務人員的這個選票這樣子的一個壓力我們也是來推動這個改革在推動改革的期間就是那時候我已經在立法院了所以我們的印象裡面我們北中南東辦了很多的公聽會對不對我記得至少有十場以上嗎很多場我也參加過在主持台東的會議"},{"start":26986.54,"end":27004.195,"text":"對,我們也是經過非常充分的討論我們希望尋求一個比較合理的這樣子的一個所得替代率然後可以保障退休公務人員他們的一個基本的生活所以我們按照這樣子的一個就是討論之後我們進行年金改革我們也有一個樓地板就是說讓這個"},{"start":27007.037,"end":27030.369,"text":"公務人員他們退休之後生活能夠得到保障所以我們要追求的就是一個世代正義讓這個退福基金這個大水庫不要這個枯竭了然後保障所有的年輕的公務人員就是這個之後退休的這樣的一個權利所以我們也看得出來目前他們就是說對公務人員他們領的這個退休金"},{"start":27030.829,"end":27032.69,"text":"撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":27047.834,"end":27060.282,"text":"國民黨委員們不要拙勢驚飛。」就是說對馬英九講過的話他們這樣子的一個在提案要翻案等於是打他們的臉打這個馬英九總統的臉謝謝謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席有請施部長"},{"start":27077.665,"end":27104.445,"text":"國安部長委員好部長我想年金改革是一個我們必須進行而且無可迴避的國家政策所以民進黨政府很負責任我們提出的年金改革的一個版本我相信我們幸福面也很多我們從事軍公教退休的很多長輩他們都會一直覺得說過去因為我們這個制度設計的問題"},{"start":27105.606,"end":27134.342,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,則稱併休醫療捏料比上班更多的畸形現象。所以他們這一次聽到國民黨的立委提出這樣的一個版本,也感覺不可思議,因為他們覺得說我們現在現行的年金改革制度,不只是保證他們一個替代率的一個很好的一個政策,而且是確保未來我們這個年金改革這個制度實行之後我們的退伏基金不會因為這個停滯改革而破綻,所以"},{"start":27135.162,"end":27135.442,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27151.477,"end":27179.386,"text":"財務很大一個問題所以在推動年金改革然後至少讓他可以延後一個世代這樣才會用盡那在這個過程裡面大家一起來做努力我覺得這樣已經有了成果就應該繼續來把它執行我想我們過去很負責任我們經過很嚴謹的一個數據分析跟充分的一個政策討論所以我們提出了這樣一個改革的方案那有效的延長我們公務人員退休撫卹基金的一個運作一個年限"},{"start":27180.146,"end":27183.248,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":27201.539,"end":27201.859,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":27217.073,"end":27217.953,"text":"撫卹法第16條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":27241.581,"end":27268.169,"text":"我想這也是我們為什麼還是從部裡面的專業分析的報告認為說年金改革的步調應該按照現在的法律制度持續來做進行是所以我們期待年金改革是一個持續的一個過程不是只有解決現在的財政問題更應該建立一個長期穩定的一個機制那未來我們應該是要定期評估這樣一個改革的效益而且根據這個數據進行政策微調"},{"start":27269.989,"end":27270.37,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27287.149,"end":27303.105,"text":"對所以本席還是要強烈呼籲我們年金改革是保障國家財政穩健跟世代公平的一個基石我們必須堅持推進拒絕倒退第二個國民黨應該提出這樣一個不負責任的反政治的一個操作"},{"start":27303.806,"end":27328.067,"text":"第三、針對未來的一個年改的修法跟政策的調整我們必須要有專業的數據跟依據來作為一個基礎確保我們改革的公平跟永續性我想這也是關鍵在我們全國國民福祉的一個重要的國家的一個行動那我想這部分我們應該是要請這個我們不管是行政院、立法院我們要好好的來處理這件事情好,部長謝謝"},{"start":27331.81,"end":27332.311,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27358.786,"end":27359.927,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27371.596,"end":27372.557,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":27391.928,"end":27411.387,"text":"提前停止會不會造成5年的破產,以你的態度跟看法。因為我們看到前續一部的報告來講的話,你的退伍基金預估可以用到140年,甚至有更多的時間你可以持續的來改革。"},{"start":27412.108,"end":27434.032,"text":"但是請問部長如果依照國民黨的提案的一個版本的話那我們提前停止這個退休所得的替代率的調降那預計會提前多久來破產我相信從早上到現在已經非常清楚了就是四當還是五當的時間可能就會破產了他可能是用在大概到135前後"},{"start":27436.973,"end":27463.085,"text":"那你想這個問題我們大家都知道非常的嚴重非常的嚴重所以說部長如果要避免到這個退伏基金的提前破產的話現在的公務人員是不是要提撥更多的一個基金啊就是說我們有很多選項嘛那如果最後沒有辦法這種選項這個我們不希望走這樣選項啦站在保護所有限職公務人員來講因為近15%啦是"},{"start":27465.186,"end":27489.375,"text":"法例現在上限是18%我們站在部裡的立場是完全不希望提高匯率這個事情如果超過18%就是等於是宣佈我們這個基金會破產嗎?不是那個基金就是說如果我們現在停止的話他就要提早五年嘛"},{"start":27489.815,"end":27490.436,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27507.014,"end":27507.675,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27529.292,"end":27529.773,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":27539.124,"end":27561.065,"text":"副長有沒有做最壞的打算呢?站在全區部立場不能現在先想最壞的一個打算我們要努力來所以我們希望說這一個按照這個年金改革繼續持續下去走啦這個是最好的可是最壞的呢?如果是最壞的情況發生的時候你會採取什麼樣的一個樣態呢?"},{"start":27563.647,"end":27564.367,"text":"撫卹法第16條條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":27579.156,"end":27582.501,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文"},{"start":27595.257,"end":27612.391,"text":"其實這個大家都很擔心可是國民黨為了他自己的一個選票所以他不惜把這個再留子孫這個是我們大家非常擔心的一件事情那在這裡非常謝謝部長的一個詢問也謝謝主席謝謝好下面我們請吳秉瑞委員發言"},{"start":27624.915,"end":27645.376,"text":"主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定例立法跟屢次的改變"},{"start":27646.86,"end":27670.405,"text":"有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為"},{"start":27672.915,"end":27697.108,"text":"立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費"},{"start":27699.322,"end":27713.122,"text":"律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡嘛"},{"start":27713.991,"end":27734.831,"text":"那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施剛剛前面的委員有講到啊不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出"},{"start":27735.802,"end":27765.085,"text":"那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這位你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":27766.213,"end":27785.654,"text":"對 我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的支出的提案行政院的議事之類的我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個"},{"start":27786.795,"end":27787.675,"text":"律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範"},{"start":27815.382,"end":27840.414,"text":"全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來"},{"start":27841.823,"end":27848.168,"text":"我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的整個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加啊這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢啊幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題啊這是國家憲政結構的問題"},{"start":27871.505,"end":27882.868,"text":"所以我是要請你們要慎重你們要堅持住這不能夠隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請許志傑委員發言主席我們請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":27900.054,"end":27901.074,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27929.608,"end":27931.169,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27960.151,"end":27984.483,"text":"現在是六萬嘛對不對我覺得我們對原住民要更好啊我覺得給他十萬啊這樣國家可以負擔嗎那原住民的今天每個月四千我覺得我們要對原住民更好啊可不可以給兩萬呢好像都很好啊那我今天老人年金只有三千多塊"},{"start":27986.543,"end":27991.384,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":28015.624,"end":28036.54,"text":"今天如果是總統的話不管國民黨的還是民進黨的當總統大家都想要把所有的人民不分族群的照顧好但是你今天是一個大家長的角度你要怎麼樣才能夠把孩子都照顧好把不同族群都照顧好"},{"start":28038.317,"end":28066.083,"text":"而沒有辦法說針對某一個方向然後特別的調高或調低要做一個整體的考量比如說我現在是年輕人我也希望租屋補助,現在差不多三、四千塊而已嘛這個是人事長有關係到的那個租屋補助還是內政部?內政部租屋補助我也希望說可以那個三、四千是要有交易代表要怎麼做最終也要一萬"},{"start":28069.008,"end":28070.089,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具〈公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":28099.602,"end":28126.205,"text":"還有很多邊緣戶喔邊緣戶我現在拿出就是我要申請低收入戶申請不到啊我又沒有半毛錢可以補助喔我現在只有房子我老了我孩子又不孝順政府應該給我兩萬吧所以以上種種我想我是要讓國民黨的藍白的朋友們尤其是藍白的立委諸公們"},{"start":28127.577,"end":28156.412,"text":"今天如果你是一個大家長你要怎麼樣把所有的資源照顧到所有的族群所以我針對年輕改革我就講說如果今天我國家只有一項一個財務分配針對年輕改革其實我也蠻贊成的啦但是呢我再一次的呼籲就是說我們當時馬英九總統說要推動年年輕改革的時候他說不能把問題留給下一任總統"},{"start":28157.822,"end":28184.358,"text":"參議院總統他說越是困難的改革就越要有承擔的勇氣。2016年黃國昌也說全力支持當時的年金改革。2019年柯文哲也說這是20年前就應該處理的事情。而現在更嚴重的是國民黨南白還要用裁劃法刪掉中央六千億。我什麼都要警告,但是我要把你的錢拔掉。"},{"start":28185.993,"end":28187.494,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":28220.236,"end":28220.956,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28251.274,"end":28274.956,"text":"他們建議從113年1月開始或者是114年之後要停止退休所得替代率降低那你們的建議是什麼你可不可以用我們一般人聽得懂的話如果真的如他們所過了之後會對國家財政造成什麼樣的影響會對世代之間的爭議產生什麼樣的影響停止適用的話那未來呢就基金的錢呢"},{"start":28276.147,"end":28280.413,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":28290.947,"end":28297.411,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":28312.473,"end":28334.818,"text":"這個基金如果就一直就這樣停在這裡那當然未來那個會不光是破產那我不曉得財源要從哪裡來我覺得這也是一般國人想聽到的就是我們現在根本不知道財源在哪裡可是我們看起來就要做這個事情如同剛剛許志傑委員也說如果我們之後財化法也通過那所有中央的錢都到地方去了而目前這個基金應該也會受到影響嗎"},{"start":28337.458,"end":28338.178,"text":"稍後會有影響﹖"},{"start":28366.997,"end":28396.569,"text":"我想這個從我們的分析大概就可以理解這個因為如果你基金沒有辦法有足夠來源就一定要全民去負擔嘛是那全民負擔就是等於是下一代的人呢要跟著來負擔嘛所以這一定有世代的問題所以像我自己那這樣好了全市長我再問你喔因為我自己有兩個小孩現在一個大一一個高一你就用這兩個孩子來舉例他們未來在這件事情上如果真的如同藍白的法案通過之後我這兩個小孩以後要背負多少事情背負多少的在這身上"},{"start":28396.749,"end":28397.09,"text":"三（委員張智倫"},{"start":28412.332,"end":28437.955,"text":"所以這個邏輯其實看起來沒有很難那我們再用白話文來講另外一題也許是一般人也會很好奇就是為什麼他們會有這個提案呢在一個提案裡面他們提到錦霄海巡入出國境管理跟移民事務防止人口範圍人員及執行空中任務人員退休所的替代率增加到百分之九十為上限他們特別把某一些業種的拉出來您的評估是為了什麼原因呢"},{"start":28437.995,"end":28438.335,"text":"三）委員張智倫"},{"start":28457.523,"end":28480.663,"text":"因為只是這樣一個狀況你要讓他比別人拿的更多這對其他人完全不公平因為基金本身強調一個最基本的原則所有人繳同樣的費率用同樣的公式來計算那個給付這才是公平所以您最後這句話其實也是簡單的數學大家繳一樣的錢用一樣的費率所以是應該分配到一樣的東西對嗎好謝謝全旭部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳委員下一位我們請郭國文委員發言"},{"start":28493.76,"end":28494.665,"text":"謝謝主席有請施部長麻煩部長"},{"start":28501.585,"end":28504.728,"text":"法律上是講60%法律上到60%的情況底下但是我們以實際的本俸乘以兩倍我們是用本俸乘以兩倍他其實實質薪資大概是1.8倍"},{"start":28529.308,"end":28540.524,"text":"對 如果這樣計算方式起來的話我現在想說如果假設是看起來是表面上是60%但是實際上我們這種基數的換算方式很有可能是變成實際上是有替代率70%的可能"},{"start":28542.017,"end":28548.38,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員"},{"start":28569.948,"end":28570.328,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28581.419,"end":28603.057,"text":"我聽說勞保大概是一萬多塊平均大概一萬多塊那勞退可能因為實施還沒有很久實施比較短啦勞退2005實施比較短所以可能不會那麼多啦以勞保的話最高投保金額來換算的話我跟你講事實上他大概約莫連四成都不到現在一萬八"},{"start":28604.638,"end":28622.165,"text":"所以說其實相對其他職業別而言我們現在即便年改之後的70%OECD比較其他的職業類別是相對比較高這是事實嘛對不對那在大會來說因為你要最主要的退休是要保障他是一個社會安全網的概念你覺得70%夠不夠你認為"},{"start":28624.707,"end":28625.447,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28645.235,"end":28670.581,"text":"那個就是如果純粹就明目上我們真的是比人家高那另外一個我就就教於你了現在2012年他現在停職在所得替代率變70%而不是降到60%嘛這樣子你說50年會停會變成是少撥了2800億嘛對不對然後另外一個部分你還有一個現實的問題是在你112年7月開始新進人就用個人賬戶制的不是嗎你這邊的少一住了嗎"},{"start":28671.311,"end":28671.871,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28692.517,"end":28693.297,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文修正草案案"},{"start":28713.815,"end":28718.737,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28737.765,"end":28738.606,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28763.183,"end":28766.086,"text":"謝謝國務委員接下來我們請圖權級委員圖權級委員圖權級委員下一位我們請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":28781.768,"end":28793.999,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩人事總書人事長,包括全序司部長,抱歉我講一個韓文謝謝主席"},{"start":28797.702,"end":28817.291,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":28826.495,"end":28851.548,"text":"國人健檢資料強化落實預防醫學的部分。」你會覺得很奇怪我現在是健康的同意這個問題我本身是一個臨床醫師所以對這個健康檢查包括如何除了這些年金的改革以外其實國民健康包括我們公務員的健康也是很重要的議題所以今天特別利用這個時間來請教兩位包括舒文市長跟市部長"},{"start":28852.789,"end":28877.15,"text":"因為健康研究年開始就是今年要開始針對於健康的議題打造健康台灣非常非常重要我們過去也發現說我們國人做健康檢查的這種風氣還有真的執行的都不是很高都是六成多四成多大家都覺得自己身體很好不用去做什麼檢查那全序部其實在107年的時候就注意到公務人員有四大死因"},{"start":28878.271,"end":28905.442,"text":"第一個就是癌症第二個是心臟病第三個是自殺第四個是肺部疾病這四個病都是可避免造成死亡的一個疾病就是說如果我們平常有在注意有在做健康檢查知道這些過程的時候就有機會去減少這樣的風險導致他的死亡這是107年的資料考試院也針對這一部分也希望全序部門能夠更多的瞭解跟注意"},{"start":28905.822,"end":28908.603,"text":"一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具〈公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":28927.292,"end":28955.444,"text":"檢檢一次,讓我們現在也允許他有兩年,因為一年會檢查韓國一般是他憂寒,可以改做兩年檢查一次,他可以做的檢查項目會比較周延。而且那個也有往年齡比較年輕的大概四十幾歲,讓他們也可以提早去做檢檢。這個大概這幾年來我們也做了很多的一個調整跟改變。"},{"start":28956.444,"end":28975.922,"text":"所以事實上都有在幫我們公務同仁做這些把關因為我們也知道目前其實很多的健檢資料分布在不同的族群包括勞工、學生、國人跟公務人員公務人員裡面依照這個防護辦法或者實施藥田他會去做健康檢查"},{"start":28976.462,"end":29004.07,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中的公務人員必須要提報。到底要怎麼處理才會避免造成影響?根據這個保訓會資安法的規定公立醫院跟學校中的公務人員必須要提報。就是說你如果不盡情你就要去提報給相關機關做處理。其實最後想要了解的就是政府機關真的這些健康檢查除了補助以外因為現在都是用"},{"start":29004.79,"end":29028.102,"text":"各個機關年度預算支援。支援的過程提報的時候就會有一些資料運用的問題這就是比如說個人資料保護法會不會允許未來把這些公務人員相關的資料也能夠納為全民在做保健的時候一個重要的運用這部分就要麻煩考試院跟人事總署"},{"start":29029.102,"end":29030.403,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29046.015,"end":29060.678,"text":"撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人"},{"start":29075.432,"end":29079.618,"text":"麻煩部長部長你這個議題其實你觀察很久了對"},{"start":29084.284,"end":29103.338,"text":"我們當過總統的人說出年金改革路不改現在不改以後就會後悔是從哪一任總統開始的?你搞不懂?今天很多人提到這應該是馬英文總統的時候就開始做了馬總統當時英明他就希望要做這個事情他英明他當時就知道不改的話因為當時我記得國際氛圍是希臘的危機"},{"start":29106.42,"end":29127.906,"text":"稀辣的退休公務人員去翻垃圾桶找漢堡的那張相片刊在全球媒體上面。為什麼?因為他的那個年金制度破產了。我答應你買多少你就破產了,你還沒中。事實上現在在中國他們的醫保,老人醫保還有他們曾經解放軍的一些承諾也因為財務出問題,承諾東西做不到。"},{"start":29130.635,"end":29154.502,"text":"所以年金改革我相信不同的政黨執政的時候能夠不動大家都希望不要動它但是從馬英九當總統開始就知道不管是軍保公教人員的如果當時不進行改革的話可能會面臨破產的危機那現在當然有人說要把它都改回去如果現在把它改回去因為制度已經變革了"},{"start":29155.842,"end":29156.542,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29177.148,"end":29197.856,"text":"當然是包括現職人員還有已經退休人員同樣都會受傷害我坦白講以退休人員我們應該照顧他可是現職人員我等在叫保費呢甚至於我即將要退了尤其現在如果你年資你大概計劃十年後要退的你聽到要改回去你應該要擔心因為當你退的時候"},{"start":29198.882,"end":29200.104,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":29212.779,"end":29233.872,"text":"在八十四五年以後軍公教本來就沒有18%優存退休制度那一次那一次的改革是為了確保已退的恩己志的人可以領到超過100%所以讓當時剛就職的公教軍領的比較少軍人把樓地板面積定在40%嘛民國八十五年那個時候啊"},{"start":29235.043,"end":29235.323,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29265.483,"end":29289.539,"text":"所以形成了不改不行的危機而且是從馬政府第一任期末端就發現這問題很大了可是他推不動啊那到蔡英文政府的時候好不容易推動了然後現在慢慢穩定下來了還要去攪動他其實傷害的反而是軍公教本席當時是負責軍人年金改革的召委軍改當時的滿意度達到98%為什麼我們不僅要財務平衡"},{"start":29294.923,"end":29307.087,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第13條條文修正草案．一）立法院第14屆第16條條文修正草案．一）立法院第16屆第17會期司法及法制委員會第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第17會期司法及法制委員會第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第"},{"start":29312.589,"end":29327.838,"text":"因為制度改變因為我們改變的制度他退休的時候月退反而增加一萬二就是那15%而軍人跟公教人員不一樣公教人員可以做到主席我馬上收尾了公教人員只要不犯錯可以做到65歲"},{"start":29328.979,"end":29330.301,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29344.176,"end":29348.338,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":29364.478,"end":29383.605,"text":"現在因為政治的因素都不去看內容也不看這個歷史背景去翻動攪動他到最後受害的是現在可能已經年近中壯年的軍公教人員甚至於新進的軍公教人員繳的錢可能未來要支付這被恢復的錢坑"},{"start":29384.825,"end":29404.253,"text":"這件事情不是政治問題這件事情不應該有黨派之分這件事情是國家永續發展照顧所有我們公職人員很重要的一個使命所以我真的希望包含昭偉包含我們不同黨派的同伴們這個事情不應該拿出來政治操作它既不道德而且很危險謝謝"},{"start":29406.329,"end":29428.584,"text":"好謝謝王委員因為今天登記發言人到67位所以我們比較重視時間好謝謝各位好那下一位我們請蔡育瑜委員發言好謝謝主席那我們是有請我們全序部司部長麻煩部長部長齁部長齁"},{"start":29434.864,"end":29456.47,"text":"今天在討論這個年改的議題那事實上我們想到了在於蔡英文執政的第二年那開始啟動了年改在當時召開公聽會包括說由總統府陳建仁當時是副總統所主持的這個年改的公聽會那這樣召開了幾場"},{"start":29458.291,"end":29459.512,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":29480.807,"end":29481.868,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":29496.32,"end":29497.001,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29516.536,"end":29520.079,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":29542.602,"end":29554.424,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":29570.367,"end":29573.17,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":29596.491,"end":29611.093,"text":"整個物價指數也好至少對退休的人應該要予以國家予以照顧的在限職的有條心已經退休的也針對所謂物價指數然後去給他去做調整也調整了6%"},{"start":29612.575,"end":29617.616,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29641.325,"end":29662.077,"text":"部長我覺得這樣的狀況站在你是全序部因為你這個去對公務員嘛你領導這些公務員那部長你的看法是怎樣我覺得年改實施以後就像委員剛剛講已經進入到我們往那個方好的方向在走那對現職或者是新進的"},{"start":29663.078,"end":29663.879,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":29678.382,"end":29702.218,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個站在政府照顧公務員這個都是毋庸置疑就比方說現在工程的工務員他會覺得他的薪資比民間少所以現在行政院在今年七月也針對工程人員他們的一個專業然後給他們說續扶的一個獎金這個續扶的獎金也是看他留越久他的獎金越高"},{"start":29703.498,"end":29729.243,"text":"在軍中的士官長也是有這樣續扶獎金然後這幾年也提高了包括警察包括危險工作他的這個危險的一個加擠警勤加擠也提高所以這是政府可以去做的但是這一些用國家的預算做的跟所謂基金要去支付的這就是兩件事情我們基金就是要讓它永續嘛"},{"start":29730.143,"end":29731.864,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":29757.675,"end":29760.556,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":29786.164,"end":29787.445,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":29806.544,"end":29806.964,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29830.479,"end":29853.597,"text":"議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人"},{"start":29859.062,"end":29864.286,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":29887.845,"end":29888.326,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29908.963,"end":29921.817,"text":"所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們"},{"start":29923.07,"end":29927.515,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":29943.47,"end":29945.031,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":29967.163,"end":29967.844,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29985.945,"end":29987.686,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":30003.752,"end":30029.12,"text":"沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛"},{"start":30031.681,"end":30038.266,"text":"這些錢用到哪裡去了呢?通通回給基金也是回到我們的年改基金所以呢這些省下來的錢並不是說政府部門拿去作為他圖來用不是我們拿回來是挹注到我們的退撫基金也就是我們在職的公務人員他們未來的退休金除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右"},{"start":30059.923,"end":30060.544,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":30078.687,"end":30091.434,"text":"現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫"},{"start":30095.196,"end":30121.443,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 也會受到影響那一樣受害的是我們在職公務人員他往後退休的福利所以我希望不分黨派大家要一起來做我們全體公務人員的後盾因為他們是跟我們一樣都是為人民來服務謝謝好謝謝五委員那現在為我們請審法會委員審法會委員審法會委員那接下來我們請五立法委員發言"},{"start":30136.7,"end":30163.761,"text":"謝謝主席有請全序部長麻煩部長委員好部長好辛苦了我來立法院五年了可是我在進來的第一年我有參與一個修法叫做退休年資要納入年改前已具有欲因留職挺薪的年資但是沒有通過"},{"start":30165.117,"end":30194.062,"text":"那我隔年呢又參與了一個修法叫做公立學校教職員退休資遣撫蓄條例是第八六十七七十七一百條那麼可以通過的就是限職公教人員跟勞工私校教職人員在退輔給予扣稅的規定一致軍公教人員退休退役後轉任私校仍然可以領到退休奉"},{"start":30194.742,"end":30214.165,"text":"那另外一個部分是公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第1492條那它的效果是軍公教及政務人員每個月繳付的退府基金費用比照勞工和私校教職員不課稅並回溯至110年1月1日起算"},{"start":30215.186,"end":30243.418,"text":"那我在隔年呢我又參與了一個修法那它的效果就是可以來分年撥補退撫基金法制化讓我們的基金永續那2023年在隔年呢我又有參與一個公教人員比照一般勞工每個月提撥退撫而且免稅那公教退撫基金財務缺口撥補那我講這些就是推動完成這個修正的讓"},{"start":30244.438,"end":30270.146,"text":"限職的公教人員得以與勞工私校教職人員在退府給予扣稅的規定一致。好我以上講的這些部長您都熟悉吧我是五月才任職不過這些這些改變我印象中大部分我都知道好但為什麼要講這些我是要讓您知道我其實對於年金改革"},{"start":30271.496,"end":30271.616,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":30299.028,"end":30299.208,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":30310.322,"end":30318.731,"text":"草案的調整基本上並不是涉及到基金根本的財務狀況所以是微調我們把一些可以調的過來的我們還是盡量的把它優化讓法條更好對不對那我就要請教您其實我經常面對的就是人家問我一句話"},{"start":30331.345,"end":30342.836,"text":"政府說年金會破產是騙人的騙我們的所以軍公教人員感受很不好請教部長到底年金破產這件事是政府在騙人嗎"},{"start":30344.022,"end":30344.122,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":30372.082,"end":30385.239,"text":"改革如果是一條對的路我們就不需要回頭但是我覺得態度是要有的我剛剛講微調讓他優化就是一種態度"},{"start":30386.806,"end":30411.618,"text":"那如果說我精算就是會破產人家算就不會破產我跟你講一個簡單的事情前天發生的我碰到一個退役的軍公教人員他說他兩次都沒有選我因為他恨死民進黨做年金改革但是他看到我為他做事為他服務他說他釋懷了他沒有那麼恨民進黨了"},{"start":30412.859,"end":30418.604,"text":"所以我覺得這個社會溝通的部分我覺得很重要所以呢我在這裡就是要特別的講我自己也覺得說年金改革持續進行的方向我覺得例如未來讓公立學校的教職員跟私校教職員一樣可以選擇何時提理這是我們的態度那我是希望說國家其實沒有犧牲軍警公教的利益仍然透過許多的修法來保障跟優化"},{"start":30439.862,"end":30442.524,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":30461.892,"end":30464.194,"text":"撫卹法第16條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":30488.294,"end":30516.839,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天我們委員會是討論這一個公務人員的退休之前的第37條的修正案那我必須很嚴正的態度來表達我們的基本立場但是經過各界的努力總算在2017年完成了年金改革那我想這已經不是制度的改革更是世代正義的實踐那現在如果要冒然停止這個退休替代儀的調降機制的話我認為這並不是一個負責任的態度"},{"start":30517.879,"end":30545.554,"text":"那我們剛才來看一下數據我們部長的報告已經很清楚的說明了現在的退休的公務人員七成以上的平均那十之月退休所得是超過五萬元那高碰點的退休者是高達是六到八萬元這已經是高於民間平均的這個新常性的月薪也就是說大概是可以到達現值的公務人員平均月薪的八成"},{"start":30546.554,"end":30568.461,"text":"這樣子的退休所得水準是否有如部分主張者所說的不足以維持基本生活?我想以這個數當然每個人會對什麼叫基本生活的定義不一樣不過我相信國人一般的這個基本生活來講一個退休人員來講如果你問我的話我應該自己不會用到那麼多錢"},{"start":30569.619,"end":30590.425,"text":"那我是主要是講說我們現在其實基本上來看的話我認為是已經是這樣的月薪的還有這樣的數字其實已經是高於就像我剛才講的今天多於我們經常性的月薪值了我認為這是對公務人員的過去他們對國家的付出的一個很基本的一個付出我們的這個反應那我想都有了"},{"start":30590.965,"end":30615.221,"text":"所以我們必須接下來要正式的就是說這個退撫基金有沒有辦法財務永續如果現在我們就貿然終止這個替代率的調降機制那根據你們的這個評估未來50年是不是會減少2800億元的沒錯那是基金用完的時間是提前幾年提前到4到5年對嘛那這樣子有沒有辦法永續"},{"start":30616.841,"end":30640.083,"text":"當然會對永續有很大的一個衝擊就會有問題在嘛那其實我們任何的政策就是希望它有它的延續性它的永續性那包含公務人員也是那政府當然我們不斷的強調他必須要用完整的皮膚還有充分的對話如果說我們只是單純的想要去討好某一個族群那某一個族群"},{"start":30640.503,"end":30648.126,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":30662.352,"end":30680.242,"text":"這一個確保退補基金的財務永訓訓是不可以短期的訴求來去犧牲基金的長期健全第二點我還是也要特別在這個地方再強調不需要兼顧每一個世代的權益不可以讓年輕的公務人員來去承擔過重的負擔"},{"start":30681.222,"end":30707.567,"text":"最後就是我希望說有一個完整的財務影響的評估報告他可以讓我們有機會來跨黨派跨世代的充分討論因為我們不是只是要針對一個世代讓一個世代好我們希望每一個世代都共榮共好所以面對年金制度這一個這麼嚴重的議題我們不能夠在缺乏完整評估專業意見的這個諮詢的狀況之下甚至沒有在社會充分的對話之下那我們就冒然的通過修法"},{"start":30708.047,"end":30708.587,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":30741.558,"end":30757.944,"text":"核心存委員核心存委員核心存委員劉建國委員劉建國委員劉建國委員副坤崎委員副坤崎委員副坤崎委員"},{"start":30769.96,"end":30779.075,"text":"徐巧興委員徐巧興委員徐巧興委員張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員"},{"start":30780.322,"end":30806.65,"text":"牛許廷委員牛許廷委員牛許廷委員秋毅瑩委員秋毅瑩委員秋毅瑩委員李坤澤委員李坤澤委員李坤澤委員賴瑞榮委員賴瑞榮委員賴瑞榮委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員"},{"start":30808.92,"end":30814.842,"text":"業源之委員賴士葆等馬文君委員賴士葆等林月琴委員賴士葆等"},{"start":30825.545,"end":30829.668,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":30841.465,"end":30861.955,"text":"李彥秀委員李彥秀委員李彥秀委員陳庭菲委員陳庭菲委員陳庭菲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員林黛樺委員林黛樺委員林黛樺"},{"start":30865.343,"end":30866.244,"text":"撫卹法定人數不足"},{"start":30893.674,"end":30912.579,"text":"謝謝主席主席也辛苦今天主要來討論這個公務人員退休資遣撫卹法我想最主要是給公務人員主席請坐公務人員退休生活的依據絕對不是為了要這個政策買標或是保護自己的政治工具那我想在第九屆的時候"},{"start":30913.739,"end":30922.844,"text":"這個類型這個歷程這個背景資料大家也很清楚花了將近快這個四個委員會的時間從4月19一直審到這個106年的6月20才完成三堵然後"},{"start":30930.396,"end":30945.95,"text":"現在我們迫不及待要來修這個法我在這邊也要特別提醒過去有幾個在野的委員有特別提出希望有個精算報告然後希望看到最新的數據然後來提出一個永續的基金改革的制度再來討論修法"},{"start":30947.051,"end":30975.346,"text":"那現在都還沒有出來我目前為什麼這麼急救張那而且到目前為止也只有看到這個國民黨委員的版本連民進黨的版本都沒有出來我為什麼特別提到民眾黨因為民眾黨的委員吳春成吳春成委員也特別提一個叫壯世代的草案那壯世代這個相關的草案是跨國部會然後是55歲以上那台灣又要進入到"},{"start":30975.776,"end":30978.166,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":30979.71,"end":31008.129,"text":"在目前台灣整體的社會醫療它是發達的情況之下那有很多65歲以上的其實都有具備這個相對的工作能力那就像我們我們人事長齁我們的這個蘇俊隆人事長齁我記得好像是六十四啊嘛齁高啊啦齁 還有一年而已齁 還有一年齁那個司部長也是對不對 也還有一年齁"},{"start":31013.838,"end":31021.473,"text":"如果說很多65歲的公務人員能夠繼續工作,他並不是為了一定要這麼工作,反而是國家需要他。"},{"start":31022.571,"end":31026.332,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":31048.436,"end":31073.009,"text":"全世界現在都在討論這樣的一個內容跟方向所以如果未來公務人員要比照勞工可以用這個協商的方式來延後退休針對這些有意願繼續留在職場那國家也需要這些人才的貢獻自己的經驗與能力的中高齡的公務人員他們的退伏要如何計算才公平部長這邊有相關的計算嗎這邊有相關的計算嗎請問部長"},{"start":31079.754,"end":31103.914,"text":"我想那個延後退休這個事情當然是整個人力運用了一環那我們目前沒有這方面的資料呢對嘛就還沒有還沒有還沒有這樣的一個一個一個一個一個大概的去盤整然後去精算的一種方式對不對那我要請問林市長在台灣進入到超高齡的社會情況之下公務人員是我能像勞工一樣與政府協商來延後退休"},{"start":31105.114,"end":31113.998,"text":"委員報告,到保證為止,到65這部分我們還維持住,但是勞工的部分因為政府機關有一些是勞工身份的,這部分我們有開放讓他們去做協商"},{"start":31124.844,"end":31142.203,"text":"具有勞工身份的我們已經有開放對不對讓他可以做協商嘛對不對延後退休嘛就像我講的嘛不具有勞工身份的就不行正式的公務人員是公兼勞的部分目前我們是維持掉的因為"},{"start":31143.224,"end":31161.331,"text":"這個部分如果要延後的話牽涉的議題會很複雜我希望要有更多的對話大家有行程公司在啦因為那不是把我影響到公務機關那跟勞工的部份喔整個整體都要做主要去宿客啦你覺得正式的公務人員國家有必要兌換這個方向大家來做好好的檢討嗎?"},{"start":31169.774,"end":31172.857,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31194.622,"end":31196.684,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":31217.579,"end":31243.093,"text":"法律修正草案案件很密切、很貼切。所以這有稍高差別,要花更多時間大家好好討論、好好博點,讓更好的郵政、公務人員繼續在65年以後,可以留在我們的國家和政府當中拍拚。所以他的計算方式,他的退伏和之前相關的計畫方式,就必須要再重新做一個調整。這樣就有六人黨了。"},{"start":31251.956,"end":31269.281,"text":"請問在座的委員,現在有林月琴委員、葉元智委員、李坤哲委員及邱益穎委員請求詢答。請問在場者有異議?沒有。好,那我們就請依序委員進行詢答。我們先請林月琴委員進行詢答。"},{"start":31282.049,"end":31284.71,"text":"主席麻煩部長麻煩部長委員好委員好作為立法院我是下一代連線的委員今天站在這裡感到很難過很暗惋惜因為這個國家正在"},{"start":31303.735,"end":31333.235,"text":"退回無法想像的樣子。」因為國民黨今天排案那個審查公務人員退休資遣撫卹法。名義上是說審查實質上就是要推翻掉過去蔡英文總統執政努力推動的年改。所以想問部長目前蔡英文總統執政時期推動的年改版本預計退撫基金可以維持多久?針對於年輕的公務人員是否有同樣保障?"},{"start":31333.955,"end":31353.499,"text":"我應該當初在推動的時候就設定至少一個世代所以如果一直走下去的話我們預估會到140年但是中間如果我們再多做比方說財務上的投資效益會更好各式各樣的方式進展當然可能還會再往後我想這是我們當初所希望走的方向"},{"start":31354.082,"end":31377.72,"text":"所以部長看起來年改可能就是被誤會了,絕對不是歧視公務員犧牲公務員實際上反而是為了國家永續發展或者換句話說讓每位退休軍公教都能夠真正的放心平安度過退休後的日子無需擔心是否國家垮台基金破產退休金領不到這是我想是年改的初衷那第二就要問"},{"start":31379.221,"end":31380.603,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":31400.523,"end":31421.81,"text":"我想所有的物價指數變動我們都有一個退休公務人員的退休所的本來就會跟著物價5%左右就會跟著做調整所以過去年改以後也調了6%了那所以我們的部裡面的資料顯示說目前所有退休人員不管他是哪一個年度退休大概七成左右都會有五萬塊以上的"},{"start":31423.19,"end":31451.379,"text":"實際上拿了月退休金所以這個數字其實還是高於勞工體系的月薪資所得我看到我們現在的平均家戶裡邊一個人如果要生活的話大概兩萬三所以這五萬塊也是可以過日子那再來就想問目前國民黨的版本修法如果退回過去請問我國每一年的財政負擔要增加多少是否目前有財源可以支援"},{"start":31452.039,"end":31452.779,"text":"我沒有辦法支撐下去嗎?"},{"start":31475.405,"end":31481.84,"text":"所以目前現行版本的話運作上全系部是否有看到什麼自愛難行之處?"},{"start":31483.626,"end":31503.476,"text":"這個已經推動的五年六年了那我想順順利利讓他到118年那我覺得對基金來講是一個永續的一個方式那更何況這中間的隨著我們物價的就是公務人員的調薪或者是我們定期的退休人員根據物價來做調整我們現在覺得說大家看到的是說那個"},{"start":31504.256,"end":31506.618,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":31531.121,"end":31531.781,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31552.185,"end":31573.031,"text":"委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現"},{"start":31574.771,"end":31603.744,"text":"這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問啊現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以呢這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不作及既往原則是不是這樣"},{"start":31605.612,"end":31633.128,"text":"撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有在跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎"},{"start":31634.807,"end":31656.533,"text":"還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎"},{"start":31658.47,"end":31667.913,"text":"委員我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛"},{"start":31685.999,"end":31686.52,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":31702.313,"end":31707.195,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":31725.442,"end":31741.132,"text":"所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關嘛真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低嘛那結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵喔"},{"start":31741.972,"end":31742.652,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":31766.026,"end":31767.227,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":31795.518,"end":31804.248,"text":"公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等一下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務"},{"start":31813.739,"end":31840.248,"text":"過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂低了計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之沾沾自喜覺得自己的年金改革做得很好"},{"start":31841.616,"end":31841.956,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":31856.823,"end":31857.763,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":31873.871,"end":31886.938,"text":"第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下"},{"start":31889.139,"end":31904.615,"text":"理解一下如果你現在所得替代率到67.5%狀況之下未來的基金有沒有可能因應假設提高投資報酬率有沒有可能就以這樣子停損的基礎就這樣下去現在只是要做這樣的事情版本就這樣而已啊"},{"start":31910.942,"end":31934.374,"text":"投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為了這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費力做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法"},{"start":31935.174,"end":31937.896,"text":"副委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣副委員副委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣副委員副委員賴士"},{"start":31960.09,"end":31971.677,"text":"那依照上午的宣告本次會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束及法案提案條文宣讀完畢為止好接下來我們請李坤澤委員發言謝謝趙偉請一下部長麻煩部長"},{"start":31989.727,"end":31990.989,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":32005.31,"end":32007.332,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":32028.187,"end":32031.149,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":32047.864,"end":32071.721,"text":"他們認為老保有撥補但是認為是對軍公教的年金有削減的這樣的一個政策他們認為這是有差異性的其實這是非常扭曲而且是非常謬誤的一個說法來請部長簡單說明一下我想在整個我們對政府對軍公教這邊的一個基金來講我們改革所省下來所有錢通通一樣"},{"start":32072.501,"end":32081.849,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":32099.164,"end":32126.252,"text":"老保在2012年的時候因為老保的財務精算報告提出說老保有財務的這樣的一個破產的危機的狀況所以在當時2012年當時的行政院長是陳聰老委會的主委是王如璇那當時我就提出兩大訴求第一個是政府撥補第二個是國家最終支付責任"},{"start":32126.992,"end":32132.556,"text":"那努力了多年終於在蘇貞昌院長的時候2020年政府編了200億2021年編了220億2022年編了300億2023年編到750億那今年2024年編到1200億明年是希望有1300億我要跟國民黨的委員說這個政府的撥補還沒有明文入法"},{"start":32154.496,"end":32174.761,"text":"這是實質的撥補還沒有進行到下一個階段勞保條例第69條的一個修正勞保要有明文入法這才是安心條款那勞保還是必須要面對未來的勞保年金的改革就是為了要讓他永續的進行還是面臨同樣的一個議題"},{"start":32177.335,"end":32198.243,"text":"我們在這邊都必須要向所有的國人來報告我們都要照顧每一個國民這是我們共同的責任不管是軍公教還是勞工還是各階層都要運用國家的資源來保障他們一個基本的權益那相關的有關於勞保這樣的一個"},{"start":32202.369,"end":32215.014,"text":"保障他們認為說對軍公教沒有保障軍公教在軍公教退休人員撫蓄基金的管理條例第八條就有明文規定"},{"start":32215.919,"end":32242.257,"text":"他們的年金如果有經費的問題政府要撥補而且是有國家最終支付責任他們有明文入法國民年金國民年金法第49條也有明文規定國民年金如果有經費的問題政府也要撥補也要負最終支付責任不管哪一個階層我們國家都要負起這樣的一個基本的責任來讓部長做最後的一個補充說明"},{"start":32252.053,"end":32255.056,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":32259.032,"end":32282.373,"text":"請教一下就邱毅穎委員之後陸續由已登記未及發言的委員請求發言那請問一下在場委員是不是我們同意已登記未及發言的委員發言就是公平好那如果沒有異議的話那就後續依到場請求順序依序進行發言好謝謝那下一位我們請邱毅穎委員發言"},{"start":32302.846,"end":32316.872,"text":"謝謝主席這個我剛剛在問說到底是要問市部長還是要問蘇仁市長兩個都互指對方都問了都問好了啦以示公平來兩位都上來"},{"start":32318.567,"end":32337.177,"text":"作太久對身體也不太好。」委員好。這個部長跟人事長請問一下你們有沒有聽過曾經有一位總統說年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就會後悔"},{"start":32339.238,"end":32361.231,"text":"可以指出這位是誰嗎馬英九先生2012年的時候說年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就會後悔那請問兩位有沒有聽過年金改革一定要快做否則將成國家的未爆彈有沒有有聽過吧那這位是誰說的"},{"start":32364.461,"end":32390.171,"text":"不是啦你不要一直講馬前總統這個答案不一定正確這個是吳敦義先生說的這兩位都是國民黨的大佬年金改革一定要做不做會後悔年金改革不做會成為國家的未爆彈但是這兩位都做不到也沒辦法做也不能做也不會做"},{"start":32391.221,"end":32415.593,"text":"所以年金改革就由蔡英文來做這年金改革改了之後我想請問一下任市長對國家帶來什麼樣的正面影響我想他主要有兩個非常重大的意義就是一個永續的概念另外一個是世代公平正義的問題"},{"start":32416.789,"end":32419.993,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案（事由．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":32428.513,"end":32456.308,"text":"那現在會面臨到什麼樣的狀況?你的永續是怎麼樣的永續?如果不做會不會破產?什麼時候破產?一定會破產一定會提早破產提早到什麼時候?119年119年就會破產嘛119到1120轉眼就很快了嘛是不是?有可能我們現在坐在台上這幾位議事人員等到您退休的時候你已經沒有年金可以領的會不會出現這樣的狀況?"},{"start":32460.409,"end":32482.279,"text":"現在這幾位我看你們都還有大概一二十年才會退休嘛如果119年破產的話你們會領不到退休金喔是不是這樣好過去的這五六年年金的改革方案在實施之後延緩了破產的危機但是我們其實還有潛在的2.9兆的債務是不是這樣"},{"start":32487.699,"end":32509.689,"text":"如果現在按照國民黨委員的提案要再把它調整回來來部長會產生什麼樣的狀況就是會提早提早再把提早到什麼時候還是119年嗎還是因為過去因為有6年的緩衝所以會再晚一點點所以他又要往前大概在135年這樣"},{"start":32511.759,"end":32535.617,"text":"所以本來是119年那因為我們做了年金改革本來會到140年對不對那現在如果要再把它改回來的話會再往前提早是不是這樣所以有可能就是你現在改回來台上這一線議事人員有可能領得到但是未來新進的公務人員大概一毛都領不到嘛是這樣嗎"},{"start":32536.297,"end":32557.051,"text":"就是最近這幾年進來的同仁當然就會壓力會更大請問一下這對國家是好事嗎這對未來新進的這些新進的公務人員是好事嗎你要現在就告訴他你進來當公務人員但公家單位等到你退休的時候年金是破產的你一毛錢都沒得領因為前面領完了"},{"start":32558.163,"end":32587.014,"text":"是這樣嗎那如果是這樣我們應該應該老實的告訴大家不要再去考公務人員了因為你沒有退休年金可以領啊因為國民黨要把他改回去啦年金破產了年限會提早啊人事長跟權序部長我們不能說謊的你知道嗎如果是這樣你們應該要老實的告訴公務人員不要再去考公務人員了因為你們未來會沒有年金可以領等到你退休的時候"},{"start":32588.7,"end":32615.115,"text":"你只能望著壁紙在那裡吹風你沒有年金可以領欸這對國家是好事嗎?對公務人員是好事嗎?現在改你還是回來照顧給原來的那一個區塊那個所得替代率又回到上升的階段年金又提早破產你對後面的人員對後面願意報效國家的人要怎麼交代?"},{"start":32618.644,"end":32644.789,"text":"雖然我平常不是很同意馬英九先生的話不過馬英九先生講這一段話倒是我是認同的年金改革一定要做一定要做台灣不能再走回頭路這件事情我希望人事長跟全序部我們一定要站穩我們的立場年金改革如果再走回頭路台灣就沒有了"},{"start":32645.953,"end":32657.859,"text":"那這是滿足了誰?好到了誰?把臺灣整個弄到滅亡,會好到什麼人?大家應該心內憂愁啦。謝謝。好,謝謝卿委員。那下一位我們請邱智維委員發言。"},{"start":32688.563,"end":32700.732,"text":"國家的利益永遠是高於政黨的利益,對不對?任何的制度,國家的制度一定要可藏可有而且一定要兼顧世代公平"},{"start":32701.872,"end":32726.973,"text":"立法者你每天在思考是怎麼樣讓國家更進步讓人民更幸福建立的法律制度相關的作為都是要扶國立民而不是禍國殃民兩位同意嗎?當然我非常同意所以剛剛邱議員說啊馬前總統他說這個年改非做不可對不對這個吳副總統"},{"start":32733.277,"end":32759.609,"text":"也說如果這個是不改這變成這個這個未爆彈一旦引爆會引起很大的一個問題社會問題國家的危機公務人員相關的權益對不對所以這兩位啊都曾經當過國家元首啊我相信他當過國家元首的時候他應該是思考到國家的利益對不對所以才會說出這種話嘛"},{"start":32761.684,"end":32790.655,"text":"他同時也是他們兩位同時也擔任過國民黨的黨主席所以他們當時說這句話應當是為了國家的利益或者制度的永續存在嘛我不曉得為什麼年改在他們那邊沒辦法執行這個蔡英文總統執行這是一個福國利民讓制度永續生存也兼顧世代公平對不對"},{"start":32792.145,"end":32807.01,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案（二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六"},{"start":32820.762,"end":32838.717,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員"},{"start":32846.687,"end":32848.648,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":32877.507,"end":32896.512,"text":"事實上他破產不只是影響到縣子公務員還有退休的甚至還影響到未來很多公務人員他會有疑慮不敢來考公務員他影響的層面還是非常廣會找不到公務人員"},{"start":32898.746,"end":32909.195,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫�"},{"start":32925.489,"end":32926.25,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":32966.973,"end":32984.469,"text":"主席麻煩請人事長麻煩人事長好人事長好好那我想請教一下在這一次我們這個原民會組織法的修法爭議我不知道您有沒有注意到知道這件事嗎"},{"start":32987.152,"end":33000.123,"text":"有提到因為顏明慧在執行的預算的預算金額增加所以你們也期待說這些顏額也可以有一個比例的一個增加應該不是這個部分"},{"start":33002.847,"end":33003.487,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33022.259,"end":33033.651,"text":"這些經費節省起來然後未來要挪到人民會去聘請一般的公務人員使用我要請教任市長經費可以這樣子挪來挪去嗎?"},{"start":33037.758,"end":33052.649,"text":"這個一個組織的一個安定性我覺得這是非常重要那做這樣的話我覺得對某些繼承的我們各個族群委員來講是有一點點不公平"},{"start":33053.593,"end":33067.05,"text":"除了不公平以外我想就是說這個整個公務那個原民會公務人員的這些員額也不是說他們把這個經費刪掉省起來就挪到別的地方也不是這樣子說挪就挪了吧"},{"start":33068.513,"end":33085.325,"text":"基本上我們在編人事會都會考量到他要執行哪些的業務這些業務是新增的還是做哪些我們會給額外的人事會因為人事會本來就是這個科目很明確的它的用途"},{"start":33086.585,"end":33086.965,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33112.851,"end":33138.189,"text":"他們最近一直在用這種話術在欺騙民眾欺騙我們原住民讓大家覺得說你們為什麼要讓原民會的人力一直都不足處於不足的狀態但是事實上這個原民會原額的問題我有再跟原民會再三的確認其實他們編制原額是206人那明年的話呢他們的預算原額你們這邊是給到198人"},{"start":33142.172,"end":33167.374,"text":"在10月底的統計實際原額是166人雖然他們年底原住民特考會再補進這些人力但是原民會的人力不足的問題它並不是預算原額的問題它是實際原額太低也就是說原民會根本就是找不到人或者是留不住人"},{"start":33168.255,"end":33170.416,"text":"這才是真正的問題那針對這些問題我要請教任市長說那你覺得有什麼建議應該要怎麼辦"},{"start":33177.289,"end":33203.663,"text":"因為事實上我也跟很多原住民的朋友有討論過來尤其在顏明慧他的上班地點在新莊那裡那從其他地方來的事實上我知道原住民有一個非常好的習慣就是說他還是喜歡回到他的風趟來工作因為那裡是他生活的場域所以到都會區來工作的原住民相對會比較"},{"start":33206.204,"end":33208.727,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":33225.96,"end":33250.174,"text":"這個部分我們上一年那個土管處我們已經有講我知道你一定會講到土管處啦那但是我想土管處是這樣子因為這個土管處這個比喻不是很好因為土管處的家籍他土管處跟其他的這個土地管理的單位像這個國產署地政司一樣都在辦理土地業務所以就應該要給一樣的家籍"},{"start":33251.414,"end":33278.081,"text":"這個邏輯上是這樣所以不要拿圖管處來做這個比喻我們刪掉這個圖管處這個比喻然後我們好好再去想一下我們再來跟顏明輝讓你好好溝通希望你們在一個月內這個怎麼補齊這個人力的部分好好想一想一個月提出報告謝謝謝謝陳委員接下來我們請徐巧興委員發言"},{"start":33286.331,"end":33293.056,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個兩位都一起好了謝謝看你們這麼辛苦了一整天了"},{"start":33294.915,"end":33295.276,"text":"通貨膨脹嚴重?"},{"start":33322.473,"end":33345.075,"text":"跟委員報我想那已經是幾年前那時候的物價相對來講是平穩我那時候沒有猜我猜啦應該是這要問主委總署不要知道說他們能不能移車那麼遠我了解所以呢我們當時看到就是我們現在回頭過來看因為我們在這個年金改革相關的辦法裡面我們有一個每五年檢討一次的制度對吧"},{"start":33346.115,"end":33350.218,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":33365.047,"end":33365.608,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33382.039,"end":33402.166,"text":"但是我們可以看到其實現在的這個通貨膨脹還有物價的調漲其實速度非常的快那再加上我們這做了年金改革之後等同於說我們的退休公務人員他們就不能說被撥了兩次皮但他們等於說實質上面他們的退休金能夠使用出去的那又變得更少了"},{"start":33402.586,"end":33416.93,"text":"所以我們就希望說那現在既然也過了四年了那我們就希望做一個檢討這是第一件事情第二件事情就是剛剛您也提到了在CPI我們就講說呢要超過5%的時候呢那我們跟著調升那我想要請教說有沒有可能我們在版本當中因為現在要討論修法嘛那我們改成CPI3%的時候呢我們就來做調整我跟委員報告說這個幾%要調整是立法政策"},{"start":33431.954,"end":33432.655,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":33452.515,"end":33469.014,"text":"所以就是說因為那如果真的要講說都一起的話那老保年金也沒改革啊那我講委員跟你報告就是說5%其實沒有達到但是我們每四年也一定會做檢討是所以說現在是到一個檢討的時段所以大家才會在這個時候提出法律的修正案嘛"},{"start":33469.554,"end":33490.942,"text":"所以我就在想說呢那我們是不是有可能因為看到現在尤其我們看到現在川普上任之後未來喔可見的未來我們的通貨膨脹還有呢各式各樣的這個物價上漲是不是台灣而已是全球都有可能發生的那是不是我們在這個時候針對公務人員他的這個CPI的調漲那可以把這個幅度下降到3%"},{"start":33492.062,"end":33493.823,"text":"草案案件事務委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文修正草案案件事務委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文修正草案案件事務委員"},{"start":33517.443,"end":33517.723,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":33537.834,"end":33556.701,"text":"最後大家很會問的問題就是說是不是會有惠普基金虧空導致於大家領不到的問題但是我們的勞動部長在大家關注勞保基金的時候前勞動部長他說這個不是只有砍年金才是改革的迷思他說撥補"},{"start":33559.402,"end":33574.841,"text":"建權這個勞保財務這就是政府的決心他認為撥補經費也是一種改革那我想請問那為什麼勞保會用撥補的作為改革但我們的退休軍公教人員不能以撥補作為改革呢"},{"start":33575.469,"end":33588.494,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":33604.801,"end":33609.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":33629.332,"end":33637.855,"text":"委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":33658.089,"end":33659.17,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33685.953,"end":33686.093,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":33706.857,"end":33717.725,"text":"所得替代率七成高於五萬一,現職人員大概有民間六萬五的八成。這些講講講講講到說最後你說民間啊"},{"start":33721.687,"end":33726.05,"text":"平均勞退保合計三萬七千五"},{"start":33752.452,"end":33763.138,"text":"第一個數字你說這個勞保的部分退休金請領人數今年7月182000人請領總金額請領353億平均每個人19000你是這個數字這個數字是沒錯問題是你後續勞退的部分你完全搞錯"},{"start":33781.04,"end":33788.983,"text":"勞退請領690件總金額1,251萬平均每人領取18,141元部長你搞清楚欸18,141元是三個月份欸勞退是三個月份請領一次欸你有沒有搞錯這麼明顯的錯誤"},{"start":33809.824,"end":33835.517,"text":"你回去把這個數字搞清楚也就是說勞退就算有勞退的喔就算有得領勞退的三個月一次一萬八千元等於才六千元欸一個月你把勞工退休等於額外把它多出來一萬兩千元沒有那麼多欸"},{"start":33838.184,"end":33852.007,"text":"勞保加勞退最高領到的就是兩萬五然後七十五歲以上的老人家因為我們勞退是從民國九十二年才開始你非常清楚的啊他們根本沒有勞退你回去問你的長輩就知道那你為什麼要把勞保形容成說哦有三萬七千五有這麼高胡說八道"},{"start":33867.517,"end":33870.779,"text":"這個數字別人搞錯沒關係你不能搞錯你直施全國公務員的權序拜託你數字應該很精通不是嗎?勞退有得領的已經很少了因為過去平均我們中小企業存活年限是7年"},{"start":33896.192,"end":33899.253,"text":"國際勞退又可以領是必須終生唯一一家公司唯一一個老闆絕大多數的勞工們沒有勞退金可以領你知道嗎更何況領是三個月一次"},{"start":33914.312,"end":33940.49,"text":"你回去問清楚問清楚你的手下你再來寫這一份報告可不可以差一萬二差多少欸你讓全國勞工人家他沒領那麼多的實質領的他覺得跟退休公務人員相對剝奪感那麼高而你美化了這個數字不是嗎"},{"start":33942.102,"end":33962.884,"text":"所以我覺得這個報告不及格啦!威龍部長啦!委員我想您的指教我虛心接受那我在報告裡面引用的確實沒有去查引用媒體來引述勞保局的一個資料所以如果這個數字您講的是正確的話我非常道歉這個數字"},{"start":33964.11,"end":33964.691,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33984.861,"end":33986.161,"text":"請相關機關請書送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":34010.461,"end":34021.28,"text":"委員林德福、謝龍介、柯智恩徒全及審法會張智倫、傅坤祺所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆。"},{"start":34026.434,"end":34046.28,"text":"討論事項所列議題報告及詢討完畢決議均另定期繼續審查現在宣讀法案提案條文宣讀時間預計12分鐘條文宣讀完畢後再宣告散會宣讀條文時列席機關代表可先行離席請宣讀"},{"start":34049.092,"end":34071.074,"text":"討論事項第一案公務人員退休資遣撫卹法委員張智倫等提案第三條除徵定第三項為前項人員不包含八十四年前已退休人員其退休資遣或撫卹之辦理從其原法令其餘未修正委員張智倫等提案第八條除第三項莫具後徵定"},{"start":34071.574,"end":34092.267,"text":"其不足部分除一本法第四十條規定各級政府每年所節省之退撫經費支出因全數挹注退撫基金外中央政府應逐年編列預算挹注其預算金額不得低於各級政府每年所節省之退撫經費支出這二倍其餘未修正國民黨黨團提案第37條"},{"start":34094.108,"end":34111.927,"text":"除第五項莫具聚首不再二字三除令增訂第六項為本條附表三有關自中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之。委員賴士寶等及委員張智倫等提案第37條均同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":34115.037,"end":34140.88,"text":"委員張嘉峻等提案第三十七條除第五項默拒拒守不在二字三除以外其餘未修正令修正付表三如後付。委員徐新穎等提案第三十七條除第三項增訂後段為中華民國一百十四年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正後之付表三認定。"},{"start":34143.035,"end":34172.004,"text":"第五項墨具聚首的不在二字三除外其餘未修正令修正副表三如後付。委員邱振軍等提案第三十七條除第五項墨具聚首不在二字三除外令增訂第六項條文為自中華民國一百十三年一月一日之後本條副表三有關逐年下降所得替代率不適用之其餘未修正委員陳昌明等提案第三十七條對照國民黨黨團提案除第六項"},{"start":34173.084,"end":34192.685,"text":"手具修正為本條附表三有關中華民國一百十三年一月一日後習餘同國民黨黨團提案委員徐宇臻等提案第三十七條同國民黨黨團提案委員張智倫等提案第三十七條除第五項後段修正為經審定後"},{"start":34195.563,"end":34211.189,"text":"於中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累積成長率達正負百分之五十及依該成長率調整之令增訂第六項為本條文附表三有關於所得替代率逐年下降之規定"},{"start":34212.25,"end":34239.785,"text":"自一百十三年一月一日起終止適用其餘未修正為馬文軍等提案第三十七條除增訂第六項及第七項條文為退除一官兵轉任公職者其原服軍職之年資應合併計入第二項退休年資本法公佈施行前退休生教者公務員得依前項規定重新計算其餘未修正"},{"start":34241.055,"end":34260.082,"text":"委員王洪威等提案第三十七條除增定第六項為退出一官兵轉任公職者其原服軍職之年資應合併計入第二項退休年資其餘未修正委員黃建斌等提案第三十七條對照國民黨黨團提案除第六項"},{"start":34261.86,"end":34280.598,"text":"手具末的之後二次修正為其自外其餘未修正。」委員陳韻貞等提案第三十七條除增訂第四項為警察、消防及海巡人員之每月退休所得其替代率依本條例之規定辦理其夫年司滿15年者替代率為45%"},{"start":34283.402,"end":34306.51,"text":"其後每增加一年替代率增給2%,最高採記40年並以90%為上限,原第四項及第五項條文第1為第五項及第六項,並將第五項首具聚首前三項修正為前四項,第六項第二具應按本法公布施行時後面增訂限職同等級人員"},{"start":34308.894,"end":34327.17,"text":"令第三具具首的一前四項修正為一前五項莫具具首的不在二字修正為併字令增定第七項及第八項為退出一官兵轉任公職者其原服均職之年資因合併計入第二項退休年資"},{"start":34328.462,"end":34354.395,"text":"本法公佈施行前退休生肖者公務員得依前項規定重新計算其餘未修正委員盧志強等提案第三十七條除增訂第三項為經全序部認定為為勞職務之空勤總隊移民署勤務人員低項替代率因依退休人員審定之退休年資任職滿15年者替代率為45%其後每增加年一年"},{"start":34355.697,"end":34363.411,"text":"代替率增給2%,最高增至40年為90%,未滿一年之期零年資按比率計算。"},{"start":34364.915,"end":34393.138,"text":"未滿一個月者以一個月計原第三項至第五項條文第以為第四項至第六項並將第四項首具聚首的前項修正為第一項第五項首具聚首的前三項修正為前四項第六項第三具聚首的一前四項修正為一前五項後段修正為經審定後另一中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五十"},{"start":34394.9,"end":34406.508,"text":"隨載職同等級人員本年供奉之條整重新計算其餘未修正文賴士葆等提案第38條除第五項墨具聚首的不在二字三除"},{"start":34408.24,"end":34436.267,"text":"令增定第六項為本條附表三有關自中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所得替代率之部分不適用之其餘未修正。文徐新穎等提案第38條除第三項增定後段文字為中華民國114年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正之後附表三認定第五項莫具拒守之不在二字三除外其餘未修正。"},{"start":34437.403,"end":34460.695,"text":"委員王厚威等提案第38條除增定第六項為依內政部移民署組織法規執行入出國境管理、移民事務及防制人口販運任務之人員及依內政部空中勤務總隊組織法規執行空中任務之人員替代率不受第一項限制。照附表三之一所定替代率計算"},{"start":34461.395,"end":34477.998,"text":"其服務年資滿15年者替代率為45%其後每增加一年替代率增給2%最高採計40年並以90%為上限其餘未修正令增訂付表三之一如後付委員賴士寶等提案第67條"},{"start":34480.615,"end":34503.973,"text":"除第一項第三具條文中正負百分之五修正為正百分之三負百分之五倒數第三具中每四年修正為每二年其餘未修正聞徐欣穎等提案第67條除第一項第三具條文中消費者物價指數錢增訂高齡家庭等文字"},{"start":34505.154,"end":34531.491,"text":"令正負百分之五修正為正負百分之二其餘未修正。委員零四明等提案第六十七條除第一項從第四具開始修正為即因依該成長率予以調整其調整比率由考試院會同行政院考量國家經濟環境政府財政與退府基金準備率定之其餘未修正。委員徐宇貞等提案"},{"start":34532.432,"end":34561.87,"text":"第六十七條除第一項第三具條文中正負百分之五修正為正百分之二負百分之五令倒數第三具條文中每四年修正為每二年其餘未修正為黃建豪等提案第六十七條除第一項第四具開始修正為因於發布日起三個月內予以調整其調整比率由考試院會同行政院制定公式定之或隨軍公教加薪比例調整"},{"start":34562.33,"end":34589.001,"text":"其相關執行規定與本法施行細則定之。其餘未修正。委員傅坤祺等提案第六十七條除定向第三具條文中正負百分之五修正為正負百分之二。第四具開始修正為及依該成長率調整之。其相關執行規定與本法施行細則定之。其餘未修正。委員王煌威等提案第六十七條"},{"start":34590.475,"end":34616.775,"text":"除第一項第四具應與調整修正為應依成長率予以調整外其餘未修正第二案公務人員任用法委員翁小林等提案第28條之一除第一項首具中公務人員應遇因後面增令遇孫等文字外其餘未修正委員李燕秀等提案第36條之一除第一項第一款第二目修正為"},{"start":34617.595,"end":34645.262,"text":"二（未具所需官等職等任用資格者一（於派用條例廢止之日起九年內得適用原派用條例及其施行細則繼續派用二（派用條例廢止滿九年之一日起得留任於派用條例廢止滿九年之日之任職機關及所屬機關內適用原派任條例及其施行細則繼續派用其餘未修正宣讀完畢"},{"start":34650.85,"end":34659.378,"text":"討論事項所列議案條文已經宣讀完畢本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}