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你也是看不出來 你說拜託 怎麼會這個樣子呢你們在揚州 你為什麼不來啊請教召委啊這好像是政府上面的體制的規定是必須要由我們辦公室是由副總談判代表來受到國會的監督總代表不用受國會監督喔沒有 他代表我們整個OTN受到國會的監督但是來這邊質詢跟備詢"},{"start":200.084,"end":209.27,"text":"是副總談判代表這個我想是不是是我們政府的體制上面的一些體制沒有這樣體制喔沒有這樣體制喔是我們的召委太客氣喔"},{"start":212.094,"end":241.315,"text":"對不對 哪裡有說楊正寧不來的我當召委我就請他來他不來 請假不准剛才說的就是這樣 我們都會我們都會配合委員的指示下一次啊 下一次我開會說我要找你楊正寧你都不知道啊 你要來所以你都不知道 我一聽你都不知道來 我再問一個問題我們跟美國買的軍售美國對我們的軍售有沒有算在貿易盒裡面 有沒有有 沒有"},{"start":242.608,"end":271.817,"text":"我們的軍售的貿易額 算不算貿易額裡面我想台美的計算方式都有不同的方式你這個裡面有回答耶 告訴我 來來來外交部市長有沒有算 來講清楚 這個很重要喔我們現在買的武器越來越多 這個算不算貿易 算不算報告委員好 如果是經過軍售管道 MFS 那麼是不算在我們的貿易的所以軍售 好 那就問你 軍售多少錢"},{"start":272.694,"end":286.883,"text":"有多少這樣子管道多少一個是軍售一個商售嘛對不對商售就有嘛是不是商售有商售有軍售沒有那你告訴我們這個比例幾比幾這個可能我還在詢問一下國防部大概多少2比1"},{"start":290.39,"end":312.621,"text":"我們手上沒有立即的數字 容後我們之後再來提供我們現在國防部 今天是國防部面來所以講清楚了 軍售不算 商售要算那一般來講 其實我們都知道商售的多 軍售的少 還是倒過來"},{"start":313.841,"end":336.458,"text":"我們這個我的了解啦我的了解是說我們是這個直接的這個軍售大於商售我就是要你這個答案嘛我們軍售是因為是美國國防部幫我們拔對好等於對口是美國的國防部所以是說他不會算在直接的貿易戰上面但是我知道我的了解是說我們透過各種的管道"},{"start":337.058,"end":364.02,"text":"也跟這個美方的 counterpart說清楚是說我們對於美國的這個軍事採購相當大的數額尤其是這幾年那麼因為貴院所通過的相關的預算我們有相當明顯的這個金額請他們也把這個東西能夠一併的在整個對我的這個相關的經濟關係上面一併的考慮進來這個你能不能去跟美國那邊提出要求啦那個副總代表"},{"start":365.734,"end":392.046,"text":"不管軍售 商售 都要列入貿易額啦否則對台灣不公平啦這就到底的上前入國的一個條文啦那他想怎樣 我給美國買東西不然算在我們的貿易額裡面一直叫我們買 我們都通常一直買 一直買單結果這一部分來講的話 最少是大於軍售大於商售啊大部分的錢都 你都不扛了在裡面副總代表 可以嗎"},{"start":392.987,"end":396.708,"text":"跟委員報告我們想我們台美的談判我們的台美的談判基本上比較沒有去觸及這一塊我們就是談傳在這個貿易議題上面這一塊也很重要怎麼不觸及他今天的一個對等規則就從這裡來的啊從貿易的逆差裡面推算回來的所以要掐起32%這道理在這裡啊對不對就是他的逆差除以除以他的一個進口額啊大家都很清楚啊我們"},{"start":423.615,"end":449.415,"text":"這個對美國來講它出口是1100多億啊是 對吧 從這裡來的啊然後順差700多 除以它 除以二就是這樣來啊來 我們看20%啊 現在變成一個地盤價怎麼樣可以變成天花盤價就是不要疊加了簡單來講 不要疊加所以兩個重點 第一個我如果爭取不要疊加第二個 20%能不能再往下降這是一個重中之重"},{"start":451.923,"end":473.159,"text":"好 我們這個就是我們現在正在爭取奴隸的空間怎麼樣可以達到嘛 告訴我們這個不是機密吧這個也是機密 喔 阿你來幹什麼啦所有談判的內容當然到目前都還是保密的狀態因為還沒有到最後底定的之前可能都會有變動來 那個經濟部的次長來 江次長你是國貿專家喔你在國貿署很久了"},{"start":479.099,"end":497.262,"text":"我們你們部長講的說說溜了嘴但是檔案都留下來他說大家要付出代價是什麼啊我們增加投資4千億好不好啊這是你們郭部長講的4千億美金請問有沒有在跟業者談這個事情有沒有"},{"start":500.63,"end":523.808,"text":"報告委員 這是郭部長他以舉例的方式來說明因為他有看到韓國跟日本在對外公佈的這個協商投資的金額所以郭部長在參加與業者的座談會當中有提到這個4千億的一個舉例這不是舉例啦 這已經快要是生命組織所換啦這個東西啊 為什麼我想上旬入國就在這裡"},{"start":528.713,"end":543.321,"text":"日本的GDP4點多兆美金我們的GDP0.8兆他大概是我們的五六倍所以他投資5500億換的一個說地板價變成天馬板價我們按照日本的GDP來的話"},{"start":544.602,"end":571.887,"text":"投資一千億都夠了 一千億美金綽綽有餘啦如果沒有把台積電算進來的話 那就已經達到了已經達到了 這樣很好算啦就這個來講 副總代表 你聽一下喔雖然你也沒有進到裡面去啦我今天才知道你根本就沒有進到裡面去然後不僅僅這樣子 我們還要爭取關稅20%往下降副總代表 來來來 副總代表"},{"start":574.077,"end":594.007,"text":"這兩個重點可以嗎這個就是談判小組在努力的 沒錯好 這我講完就結束了其實我們都知道 還有一大塊很重要的國內人大概都只注意到說 我去美國的美國現在 就是鄭麗君副院長說的"},{"start":595.29,"end":607.085,"text":"美國一直丟出來新的東西其中很重要的要台灣開放市場特別是農業 汽車業這一部分你能不能跟美國談"},{"start":608.499,"end":625.497,"text":"比如說汽車的 我用貨物稅來取代關稅的條件貨物稅 基本上來講的話 財政部是比較去注意的用貨物稅 這貨物稅也被川普總統認定為非貿易障礙裡面的一環"},{"start":627.199,"end":638.196,"text":"各國的貨物稅其實都跌很高我們的貨物稅很高啊 不同息息數這個非常高的 有20%以上的等等的 這一部分是不是你們也是要列入的談判範圍裡面"},{"start":640.493,"end":658.714,"text":"我想我們跟美國談判的東西基本上是按照美國它的主要的需求來提出那對台灣來說貨物稅可能不是一個單純的汽車的問題它可能是一個整體性貨物稅有沒有對於不同的產業有租稅公平以及有沒有按照我們現在的時事需求去科證這個貨物稅"},{"start":660.015,"end":688.172,"text":"所以我想這個會是政府在做整體性貨物稅減稅的時候去考量的方式農業 農業要進一步開放嗎農產品會進一步開放嗎這個你不能講是不是謝謝委員你不能講 那你來那邊做啥都不能講來這裡要黑箱到這裡對不對就是美國所有他有提過關稅非關稅的議題都是在我們台美談判的議程上面"},{"start":689.062,"end":712.798,"text":"都不能講 你都不能講 公開不能講我們現在就是按照保密協議的方式 盡可能來鄭麗君 因為副院長公開已經講了美國跟我們談 每一次丟一個新的議題裡面有汽車 有這個農業的東西都有他都公開講了 你這裡又不能講 你是要來中產化嗎 不知道副院長有提到說 汽車是屬於美規車是非關稅的議題"},{"start":716.281,"end":723.863,"text":"當然是一併考慮的那裡有廢棍所以主席跟主席報告我們的副總代表今天來都說這都機密的這個東西今天是公開的所以應該是據此以報"},{"start":735.005,"end":755.055,"text":"據實與報啊 你在這裡有這個義務要誠實講要你知道的誠實講 除非你都不知道你是說你都不知道 因為你沒有進去那個房間裡面談對吧 你沒有進去房間裡面談各位委員報告 我們剛剛有提到是按照議題的分工 由談判的小組來決定參與你們 我最後一個細節問我就下去了你們總共跟美國談了幾次了"},{"start":761.086,"end":771.051,"text":"我們實體的面對面談判有進行四次幾次啊四次是啥四次的實體面對面的談判四次實體面對面你參加了幾次你參加了幾次請問你我們就是你參加幾次啦嚴副總代表你參加幾次你告訴我"},{"start":781.805,"end":803.004,"text":"我想我們整個談判的團隊就是是需要我們來支援談判小組你還是沒辦法回答我這個讓我就高度質疑你根本就是狀況外你只是拿來當炮灰而已來立法院當炮灰你根本you know nothing你根本什麼都不知道你自己也不知道"},{"start":804.934,"end":827.663,"text":"這樣子對不對這個瞧不起立法院了找一個不知道的人來備詢怎麼會這樣子呢那你要跟我回答啊回答這問題你一直不回答我就沒辦法下來啊面對面面對面的meeting裡面你參加幾次你回答我就這個問題回答我參加幾次一次比較多一點兩次"},{"start":832.264,"end":832.404,"text":"謝謝萊斯堡委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時3分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請外交部的陳次長、經濟部的江次長，然後顏副總談判代表。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：三位長官好。首先第一個先請教，我們這次跟美國談關稅的對口單位是哪個單位，外交部知道嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：這個主要還是由我們談判團隊來負責……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那外交部的長官可以先請回沒關係。","來，跟我們講一下，美國的對口單位是誰？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們主要對口是USTR，然後有議題相關的，商務部也會參加。"],["賴委員士葆：是什麼？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：商務部。"],["賴委員士葆：商務部的對象是誰？我們出面的是我們行政院的副院長耶！這個級別要稍微講一下，我們的對口你要講一下，他們長官是誰嘛？可以講嗎？這是機密嗎？這是機密？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：第一個，對，就是要跟委員報告的……"],["賴委員士葆：這個也機密喔？「夭壽喔」，我們出去是這樣大聲嚷嚷，說我們的行政院副院長出面，他對口的是誰？張三、李四、王五都不知道，這個還機密？！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，我剛才在講的是，我們實際上在談判的時候，當然不會是他們的USTR或者商務部的最高長官出來談，所以他的組成就像我們談判團隊的組成，都會視議題去做調整，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：他們的最高層級到哪裡？我就問你這個啦。到哪裡？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們副院長所領軍的談判團隊應該是有見到USTR的Greer大使……"],["賴委員士葆：Greer？Greer有見到嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：以及商務部長Lutnick部長。"],["賴委員士葆：商務部長有嗎？盧特什麼什麼特的。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：盧特尼克。"],["賴委員士葆：盧特尼克有見到嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？有跟他談嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我被告知的是，確實他們有見到，有做進一步比較高層性的討論。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你今天來這裡是國會，你要講真話喔，你能講就講，你不知道就說不知道。我聽了的感覺是你不知道，你是副總代表，不是嗎？你有沒有進去談，我請教你，你有沒有進去談？你，you，你有沒有進去談？你。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，我們的談判就是……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有進去談，我問你，你有沒有進去談？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：在議題有需要的，我就按照長官的安排參加。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣就是你沒有進去啊！你沒有進去，你卻代表總談判處來這裡，不是很奇怪嗎？顏副總代表啊，你就「芋仔蕃薯」都不知道，五四三你也不知道，你要來這裡，你是要怎麼備詢啦？你都不知道，你也是看報紙在講，拜託喔！怎麼會這個樣子呢？","你們的楊珍妮為什麼不來啊？請教召委，這個……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這個好像是政府體制上的規定，必須要由……我們辦公室是由副總談判代表來國會接受監督並備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：總代表不用接受國會監督喔？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：沒有，他當然也代表我們整個OTN（行政院經貿辦）受到國會的監督，但是來這邊接受質詢跟備詢的是副總談判代表……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會那麼奇怪？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這個我想是不是我們政府體制上面的一些……"],["賴委員士葆：體制？沒有這樣的體制，沒有這樣的體制喔！是我們的召委太客氣，對不對？哪裡有說楊珍妮不來的，我當召委我就請他來，他不來，請假不准，簡單說就是這樣。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們都會配合委員的指示。"],["賴委員士葆：下一次，下一次我開會說我要找你們楊珍妮。你都不知道啊！你要來，所以你也都不知道，我一聽你都不知道。來，我再問一個問題，我們跟美國買的軍售，美國對我們的軍售有沒有算在貿易額裡面，有沒有？有？沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們的軍售的貿易額……"],["賴委員士葆：算不算貿易額裡面？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想臺美可能都有不同的計算方式。"],["賴委員士葆：你這個說法等於沒有回答。","來，告訴我，來、來、來，外交部次長，有沒有算？來，講清楚，這個很重要喔，我們現在買的武器越來越多，這個算不算貿易，算不算？算不算？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，如果是經過軍售管道FMS，那麼是不算在我們貿易的……"],["賴委員士葆：就是所謂的軍售，好，那我就問你，軍售多少錢？有多少？這樣子的管道有多少？一個是軍售，一個是商售嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["賴委員士葆：商售就有，是不是？"],["陳次長明祺：商售有。"],["賴委員士葆：商售有，軍售沒有。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["賴委員士葆：那你告訴我們，這個比例是幾比幾？"],["陳次長明祺：這個可能我還要再詢問一下國防部。"],["賴委員士葆：大概多少？二比一？"],["陳次長明祺：我們手上沒有立即的數字，容我們之後再來提供。"],["賴委員士葆：今天國防部沒有來，所以你講得很清楚了，軍售不算，商售要算。"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["賴委員士葆：一般來講，其實我們都知道，商售的多、軍售的少，還是倒過來？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，就我了解，我的了解是我們是直接的軍售大於商售。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛，我就是要你這個答案嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：我們軍售是因為美國國防部幫我們把……"],["賴委員士葆：對，好。"],["陳次長明祺：等於對口是美國的國防部，所以他不會算在直接的貿易帳上面。但是我知道，我的了解是，我們透過各種管道也跟美方的counterpart說清楚的是，我們對美國的軍事採購是相當大的數額，尤其是這幾年，因為貴院所通過的相關預算，我們有相當龐大的採購金額，請他們也把這個東西能夠在整個對我相關的經濟關係上面一併考慮進來。"],["賴委員士葆：這部分你能不能去跟美國那邊提出要求，副總代表，不管軍售、商售都要列入貿易額，否則對臺灣不公平啦！這就是道地的喪權辱國的條文啦！那是怎麼樣，我們跟美國買東西不算在我們的貿易額裡面，一直叫我們買，我們都一直買單，結果這一部分來講的話，至少軍售是大於商售啊，大部分的錢你都不count在裡面。副總代表，可以嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，我想我們臺美的談判……"],["賴委員士葆：可以嗎？你聽懂我講什麼吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們臺美的談判基本上比較沒有去觸及這一塊，我們就是談在貿易議題上面……"],["賴委員士葆：這一塊也很重要，怎麼不觸及？他今天的對等關稅就是從這裡來的啊，從貿易的逆差裡面推算回來的，所以要charge32%，這個道理在這裡啊，對不對？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["賴委員士葆：就是他的逆差除以他的進口額，大家都很清楚啊！對美國來講的話，我們的出口就是一千一百多億，對吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。我們主要貿易……"],["賴委員士葆：從這裡來的啊，然後順差七百多就除以二，就是這樣來的啊！來，我們看20%現在變成一個地板價，怎麼樣可以變天花板價，就是不要疊加了，簡單來講不要疊加。所以兩個重點：第一個，我如何爭取不要疊加；第二個，20%能不能再往下降，這個是重中之重，副總代表。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這個就是我們現在正在努力爭取的空間。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼樣可以達到嘛？你告訴我們。這個不是機密吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：呃……"],["賴委員士葆：這個也是機密？喔……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，所有的……"],["賴委員士葆：那這樣你們要做什麼……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：所有談判的內容，當然到目前都還是保密的狀態，因為還沒有到最後底定之前，可能都會有變動。"],["賴委員士葆：來，請經濟部的次長來，江次長，你是國貿專家。"],["江次長文若：不敢。"],["賴委員士葆：你在國貿署很久了，你們部長講的，說溜了嘴，但是檔案都留下來了。他說大家要付出的代價是什麼啊、我們增加投資4,000億好不好啊，這是你們郭部長講的，4,000億美金。請問有沒有在跟業者談這個事情，有沒有？次長。"],["江次長文若：報告委員，這是郭部長以舉例的方式來說明，因為他有看到韓國跟日本對外公布的協商投資金額，所以郭部長在參加與業者的座談會當中，有舉例提到這個4,000億。"],["賴委員士葆：這不是舉例，這是已經快要生米煮成熟飯了。這個東西，為什麼我會講喪權辱國，原因就是在這裡。日本的GDP四點多兆美金，我們的GDP 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know nothing！你根本什麼都不知道，你自己也不知道，這樣子……對不對？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我就是就我被授權的部分來……"],["賴委員士葆：這是瞧不起立法院，找一個不知道的人來備詢，怎麼會這樣子呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我就我被授權的來跟委員進行報告。"],["賴委員士葆：那你要回答啊，要回答這個問題，你一直不回答，我就沒辦法下來啊！四次面對面face to face的meeting你參加幾次？你回答我，就這個問題回答我，你參加幾次？一次？多一點，兩次？都沒有！來，你回答，我就下去了，你不回答，我不下去，回答我！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我至少有參與過半數以上的實體會議。"],["賴委員士葆：一半？就兩次多一點，兩次半！就這個意思，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。","接下來由林倩綺上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-25","speakers":["黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","賴士葆","林倩綺","黃國昌","陳冠廷","林憶君","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-14"],"gazette_id":"1147301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、財政部次長、農業部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表\n報告「因應台美關稅及國際局勢變化台美關係互動情形，暨俄烏戰事與以哈衝突外交援助概\n況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}