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重視 感謝內部而言我們從政策上來強化法制面而言我們希望能夠有所不足的地方我們再透過更強大的修法院長你沒有回答本席的問題所以我們從政策 組織 法律各法制各方面都在進行院長你還是沒有回答本席的問題是過去這幾個月國人普遍印象裡面認為說政府在幹嘛"},{"start":136.806,"end":161.161,"text":"行政院還是在做行政院在做行政院是但是國人普遍印象裡面從不管是政論節目新聞媒體以及相關各部會下鄉去做宣講宣講是講國人認為說政府在做什麼宣講是跟預算相關的話題在行政院的範圍裡面我們跟國人來做說明說實在話院長"},{"start":162.622,"end":180.263,"text":"本席在經歷過7月26號再一次的選舉我想我應該是很有資格在這邊講這個話從上到下其實全國國人可能都認為今年三分之二時間政府從上到下帶頭都在搞罷免沒有真真正正的在做其他"},{"start":180.856,"end":208.01,"text":"真的國人關心的 我常說絕大部分的部委首長人民最希望看到的是拚經濟 拚民生 拚打詐但絕對不是拚政治絕大部分的部委首長都在努力自己的工作所以新聞畫面 你看一下七個人在七月因為詐騙而喪命權力大罷免的政府何時才能權力打詐當媒體用這樣的一個標語的時候其實我們是心痛的"},{"start":208.683,"end":217.372,"text":"我身為在野黨的委員我一樣非常心痛因為代表連媒體都認為是說現在這個政府完全沒有在針對民眾想要了解的問題來解決"},{"start":218.749,"end":240.774,"text":"我們每個月都有打砸的時機當然這不能再...你看你又要回來講數字了不是剛剛王玉川委員才跟你哭口婆心講說不要再講數字你說我們從來沒有做你現在又要拿數字來救援不是 是委員說我們都沒有在做我說我有在做做得不夠多不夠好非常好來 院長如果說你真的要講數字我們來講數字什麼樣的數字在你心目中你有沒有一個概念現在一天有多少國人被詐騙從"},{"start":243.756,"end":262.238,"text":"去年到現在我們每天減少的案件大概有350件打在儀表板上面昨天統計有多少的詐騙案件今天昨天我是沒有看我們每天下降的數字從這個禮拜一到禮拜四今天禮拜五還沒有統計出來這個禮拜一到禮拜四有多少的金額被詐騙"},{"start":263.561,"end":285.975,"text":"我只能跟你說這一年以來我們每天統計下降的數字每天有350件如果說你真的說念茲在這的話其實我覺得說這些數字應該都會在你心目中每天想著怎麼樣來降低一點一滴而不是到目前為止還是只能拿這本報告來救援禮拜一到禮拜四本席剛看了一下總共有11億2000萬被詐騙"},{"start":289.696,"end":318.57,"text":"四天裡面就有十一億兩千萬被詐騙的金額算不算高因為我們一年現在每個現在降到七月份是有八十一億來院長這個比例上就你的報告我們來討論其實本期今天很希望是很持平的因為我們都是要一起面對詐騙打擊詐騙人人有責來我們來看一下數字本期也跟你就數字討論數字因為這很客觀跟科學來看一下"},{"start":319.372,"end":344.303,"text":"這是您的報告對不對詐騙案件你上面畫了一個紅線是逐年下降的概念逐月下降的概念對不對院長有沒有發現有一個盲點從今年的3月到現在的7月其實它沒有下降它其實是完全有一個持平的概念來我們上一張"},{"start":347,"end":372.692,"text":"上一張你看如果說從去年因為你一直強調說去年8月才開始有改變這個登記的方式所以說8月以前你們先不記好本席也同意來我們先看一下就說那8月到今年的7月快一年的時間每個月的數字可你真的看過去這5個月從3月到7月他是一個成水平等於是說15000件每個月有超過差不多15000件他沒有繼續往下"},{"start":376.121,"end":389.897,"text":"我們就講是說這類似選舉有所謂基本盤啊難道我們詐騙也有詐騙基本盤嗎國人一個月有一萬五千多件可能會被詐騙那過去這五個月發生了什麼問題委員我兩句話第一個對這個數字政府從來沒有滿意過"},{"start":393.583,"end":422.059,"text":"我也不滿意你也不滿意沒有所以我要找的是問題啊他每個月都有每個月的因素因為你看院長我可以請教一下說這個問題在哪裡這五個月都有每個月有一萬五千件每個月我們都有分析過二月份特別低因為是過年期間我現在在問三月到七月七月份會比較高因為進入到暑假期間我現在在問三月到七月特別對青少年的事情沒有針對本協會有啊七月會比較高因為是暑假期間院長七月有比較高嗎對"},{"start":424.244,"end":446.102,"text":"七月沒有下降 七月有比六月高嗎七月沒有下降 因為它是暑假期間 是吧所以院長 本席現在在跟你討論的是說我們現在國內有一個所謂詐騙基本盤就是一個月有一萬五千件 已經持續了五個月有沒有注意到這個數字 所以我們逐月在分析如果把它下降是 那我們剛剛有說過 所以本席才會問是說在這五個月裡面沒有下降的問題點在哪裡"},{"start":447.603,"end":469.977,"text":"我們說有些案件它是遞延會發生六個月才會發生但這個是一直遞延下來我也覺得一直維持我首先要求的是不能往上升再來維持平衡之後就往下降我們再看下一個金額來我們再看金額的數字院長本席希望能夠跟你好好就事論事就事情討論事情來看一下這個詐騙的金額"},{"start":472.622,"end":485.175,"text":"你的報告也是畫一條紅線往下代表是說這個逐年往下嘛 對不對逐月往下嘛 但實際上是這樣子嗎實際上是這個樣子嗎我們看一下過去這五個月我們看一下過去這五個月嘛來 你看一下過去這五個月"},{"start":493.064,"end":517.265,"text":"過去這五個月從二月你剛講的農曆因為第一農曆二月天數比較少第二農曆過年放假比較多所以二月比較低但從三月一直到七月他其實呈現一個逐步往上的數字二月不是天數比較少是大團在休息放連假嘛但是三月到七月是不是一個逐步往上"},{"start":518.72,"end":531.825,"text":"是 我的要求是不能往上升一定要先壓制所以現在往上升了你的要求看起來是破功啦是不是跟委員報告就是我們要看從去年跟今年的那個重新的一個狀態比較那個也是急速的一個下降嘛院長 院長"},{"start":539.745,"end":566.561,"text":"圖形有所不同但是我不爭執這個事情我現在都是拿你今天的報告來跟你救教我今天都拿你今天的報告不是要美化數字數字是科學數字是理性數字是務實但重點是本身現在看到數字就是有問題你不能拿數字之後然後你給我一個圖表畫一條橫線往下你就以為催眠國人說現在是往下不對啊每個月有八十幾億"},{"start":568.243,"end":592.019,"text":"五月八十五億 六月八十九億 七月八十六億八十幾億的詐騙金額在被詐騙 平均一天兩億到三億也是經過我們就是打詐團隊的一個努力像以去年的話八月到十二月都是一半多月嘛那你現在就是不理性不科學的做法嗎但是我想這個都是一長期來看 這是下降趨勢就是我們打詐有一些的"},{"start":592.159,"end":595.265,"text":"部長你還要跟我扯趨勢是不是你還要跟我扯趨勢嗎這個是什麼趨勢三歲小孩都看得懂趨勢你跟我扯趨勢"},{"start":603.985,"end":629.825,"text":"我們從去年比較上它是下降的那現在足月有高高低低我們不滿意我們在這裡的對話我們這裡的對話不要讓外界覺得說您不滿意我滿意絕對不是我們都不滿意大家都不滿意所以我們會努力往下降所以民眾的民怨才會那麼高所以民眾才會希望大家好好的做實事做真事做對的事情而不是浪費時間浪費精力在搞其他的政治來 部長"},{"start":631.083,"end":659.933,"text":"剛剛我也聽到黃珊珊委員有詢問到因為我們認為是說詐騙竟然每一個都是每一個都是一個血淋淋的案例但是我們也看到今年1月到6月這刑事警察局給本席的資料已經財損561億如果看這個趨勢下去很有可能今年會破千億院長有什麼方法可以處理"},{"start":662.176,"end":686.613,"text":"剛剛我在報告裡面都把基本上的方法講了那這些方法只會越來越精進該橫向聯繫 該跨境合作該加強它的懲詐的效果跟司法院的互相的來就法制面來強化等等我們都會做這個都已經在進行當中來處理法制面的問題我先請教喔因為剛剛黃珊珊委員有提到一個案例這是四天前的一個新聞"},{"start":687.413,"end":700.05,"text":"我要不要跟那個詐騙三百萬被抓車手假釋還高調拍片說沒有想賠我們看一下內容因為剛剛聽起來是院長跟部長沒有看到這一個影片對不對"},{"start":701.229,"end":725.372,"text":"我剛才請部長要把這個影片找出來到底這個人是誰是真是假來如何處理他說錢已經被他花光了法院只跟他強制扣了有7000多塊但是他花光了300萬他本來不打算賠錢認為錢關出來之後可以繼續花但是因為爭取假釋所以說他才要去和解院長如果說到最後台灣變成是笑評不笑唱"},{"start":726.653,"end":749.511,"text":"如果說台灣社會變成是這種詐騙集團車手可以這樣子高調用社群媒體平台還這樣子肆無忌憚的把他的犯罪過程跟犯罪狀況拋在網路上你可以允許可以認同嗎所以我們現在才來講是說是不是能夠針對修法騙多少 欠多少 罰多少"},{"start":750.43,"end":771.352,"text":"他騙了三千三百多萬結果到時候他只被強制扣押七千多塊可能是因為他三百多萬全部都已經花光了所以他名下沒有這些財產我們一般的民間借款借了多少錢可能你都要還多少錢欠款都要還款但沒想到詐騙居然就可以騙多少錢不用還他應該騙的金額院長"},{"start":773.732,"end":784.719,"text":"有沒有修法空間我們要啟動修法 請部長說明這部分在委員關心就是詐偽條例43條裡面我們有就高額的一個詐欺那以現在的來講的話500萬元是"},{"start":787.043,"end":816.083,"text":"三到十年一億也是五到十二現在我們要再多一個級距我們想要是在中間如果一千萬的話就五到十二一億以上就七億以上我想這個高的渣期的這部分的確是要遏止一定要嚴加的嚴辦那這部分我們那個修正查明先再行政再審查中什麼時候可以出來我們這盡快因為這部分還邀司法院來做一個討論我們希望能夠盡快能夠達成一個公示能夠把這個法案送到立法院來審議"},{"start":818.066,"end":832.881,"text":"院長剛剛部長回答的是針對詐騙那另外嫌犯但是本席剛有提到另外一部分是針對他騙的錢因為你現在很多的案件其實你被騙的金額到時候你也是拿不回來這個是我們關心的是在詐偽條46跟47條"},{"start":837.526,"end":862.246,"text":"他那部分現在以刑事大法庭來講的話他是採報酬縮報酬縮所以說他三千七千塊只拿了一筆這是很不公平那我想我們當初的立法本來就是要全部以被害人的被交付的被害金而縮但是現在我們現在有修法有修正草案在4647條這部分仿照德國立法例我們"},{"start":863.207,"end":883.794,"text":"什麼時候可以出來我們現在是也是草案現在同時因為我自己修了好幾條8月14號那個對那個我們六位六位送過去那最近密集的在做一個開會做一個最近就在開會所以什麼來院長還是強調嘛你不能全部都是積在行政院你什麼時候可以來到立法院我們共同討論"},{"start":884.878,"end":896.785,"text":"因為這個還要跟司法院做討論我記得8月10幾號已經開過一次會了那開過會有具體結論我們就把它法治法完整 送交大院院長 三個月內有沒有辦法"},{"start":898.598,"end":922.959,"text":"現在是8月底了嘛我們9月10月會期下個會期一定提出來好不好下個會期是到12月一定提出來讓他可以大院有審議我們希望是在你總諮詢的時候總諮詢結束之後我們就可以來處理一定提出來讓大院有審議的時間好 院長其實本期還有很多的問題還有很多的意見尤其是針對我們現在所謂的這個融資公司專法"},{"start":924.394,"end":936.497,"text":"不能說融資公司因為其實大家看到很多的新聞案件融資公司也是現在有可能變成是詐騙集團的一環不要說讓劣幣驅逐良幣如果說合法的融資公司但是非法的很多的融資公司他們有受到法律管理的時候很有可能會被犯罪回酬我們看到之前被逼死的那些民修很大部分也都是給融資公司來被控告的我們會自己把他們的責任讓他們拿來"},{"start":979.849,"end":981.13,"text":"好 謝謝侯孟凱文的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2028,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時8分）主席謝謝。麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。院長，上任一年多以來，國人一直希望政府是做實事、做真事、做對的事，而詐騙是沒有任何一個人可以接受的。我剛剛聽到好幾位委員向你質詢及就教後，發覺你也開始改口願意稱這些數字其實是沒有太大意義……"],["卓院長榮泰：我在報告裡面就講過了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，因為每一個數字，即便你說從去年到今年有減少，但對於被害者來講，每一個案件就是百分之百的詐騙……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯、沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：每一個案件就是沒有辦法拿回來被騙的錢，而更重要的是態度問題，本席第一線長期跟我們所有的警務同仁以及相關人員在一起，本席非常肯定我們第一線的員警同仁，大家對於打擊詐騙的辛苦、辛勞。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是有沒有讓全國國人看到現在的政府帶頭從上到下在拼打詐？院長，你自己怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會……","洪委員孟楷；你有讓國人感受到我們全國所有的部會首長，大家都真真正正放心思在拼打擊詐騙嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：外表態樣上來看，我們對這些打詐的相關人員，我們予以鼓勵、重視、感謝；內部而言，我們從政策上來強化；法制面而言，我們希望有所不足的地方，我們再透過更強大的修法……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你沒有回答本席的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們從政策、組織、法律、法制等各方面都在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你還是沒有回答本席的問題，過去這幾個月，國人普遍印象裡面認為政府在幹嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院還是在做行政院該做的事。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院在做行政院的事，但是國人普遍印象裡面，從不管是政論節目、新聞媒體以及相關各部會下鄉去做宣講……"],["卓院長榮泰：宣講是講……"],["洪委員孟楷：國人認為政府在做什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：宣講是跟預算相關的話題，在行政院的範圍裡面，我們跟國人來做說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，院長，本席在經歷過7月26號再一次的選舉，我想我應該是很有資格在這邊講這個話，從上到下，其實全國國人可能都認為今年三分之二的時間，政府從上到下帶頭都在搞罷免，沒有真真正正地在做其他國人真的關心的，我常說……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕大部分的部會首長都……"],["洪委員孟楷：人民最希望看到的是拚經濟、拚民生、拚打詐，但絕對不是拚政治。"],["卓院長榮泰：絕大部分的部會首長都在努力自己的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以新聞畫面，你看一下，7個人在7月因為詐騙而喪命，全力大罷免的政府何時才能全力打詐？當媒體用這樣一個標語的時候，其實我們是心痛的。我身為在野黨的委員，我一樣非常心痛，因為代表連媒體都認為現在這個政府完全沒有在針對民眾想要了解的問題來解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們每個月都有打詐的實績，當然這不能……"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，你又要回來講數字了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛王義川委員才跟你苦口婆心講說不要再講數字……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我們從來沒有做。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在又要拿數字來救援？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，是委員說我們都沒有在做，我說我有在做，做得不夠多、不夠好是事實。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，來，院長，如果你真的要講數字，我們來講數字，什麼樣的數字，在你心目中你有沒有概念？現在一天有多少國人被詐騙？"],["卓院長榮泰：從去年到現在，我們每天減少的案件大概有350件。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天、昨天在打詐儀表板上面，昨天統計有多少的詐騙案件？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天、昨天我是沒有看，我們每天下降的數字……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜從禮拜一到禮拜四，今天禮拜五還沒有統計出來，這個禮拜一到禮拜四，有多少金額被詐騙？"],["卓院長榮泰：我只能跟你說，這一年以來，我們每天統計下降的數字，每天有350件。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，如果你真的念茲在茲的話，其實我覺得這些數字應該都會在你心目中，每天想著怎麼樣來降低一點一滴，而不是到目前為止，還是只能拿這本報告來救援。禮拜一到禮拜四，本席剛剛看了一下，總共有11億2,000萬被詐騙，4天裡面就有11億2,000萬被詐騙的金額，算不算高？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們一年……現在降到7月份是有81億，這個比例上我是覺得……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，就你的報告我們來討論，其實本席今天很希望是很持平的，因為我們都是要一起面對詐騙、打擊詐騙，人人有責。來，我們來看一下數字，本席也跟你就數字討論數字，因為這很客觀跟科學。來，看一下，這是您的報告，對不對？詐騙案件你上面畫了一個紅線，是逐年下降的概念、逐月下降的概念，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，有沒有發現有一個盲點？從今年的3月到現在的7月，其實它沒有下降，它其實完全是一個持平的概念。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：上一張你看，如果說從去年，因為你一直強調說去年8月才開始有改變登記的方式……"],["卓院長榮泰：統計的方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以8月以前你們先不計，好，本席也同意。來，我們先看一下，8月到今年的7月，快一年的時間每個月的數字，可是你真的看過去這5個月，從3月到7月它是呈水平，等於是每個月有差不多1萬5,000件，它沒有繼續往下，我們就講，這類似選舉有所謂的基本盤，難道詐騙也有詐騙基本盤嗎？國人一個月有一萬五千多件可能會被詐騙，過去這5個月發生了什麼問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我講兩句話，政府對這個數字從來沒有滿意過；第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我現在……我不滿意，你也不滿意沒有錯，但我要找的是問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，第二個是，它每個月都有每個月的因素，譬如你看……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可不可以請教一下這個問題在哪裡？這5個月以來，每個月有1萬5,000件。"],["卓院長榮泰：每個月我們都有分析，2月就特別低，因為是過年期間……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在問的是3月到7月。"],["卓院長榮泰：7月會比較高，因為進入到暑假期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在問的是3月到7月，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們特別對青少年的事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您沒有針對本席的問題回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊！7月會比較高，因為是暑假期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，7月有比較高嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，7月……"],["洪委員孟楷：7月有比6月高嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：7月沒有下降，因為它是暑假期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，院長，本席現在在跟你討論的是，我們現在國內有一個所謂的詐騙基本盤，就是一個月有1萬5,000件，已經持續了5個月，有沒有注意到這個數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是逐月在分析，看要如何把它下降……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席才會問，在這5個月裡面沒有下降的問題點在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：有些案件是遞延6個月發生，這個是一直遞延下來的，我也覺得一直維持……我首先要求的是不能往上升，再來維持平衡之後就要往下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我們再看下一個金額。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓我們按部就班地來。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，我們再看金額的數字。院長，本席希望可以好好跟你就事論事，就事情討論事情。來看一下這個詐騙的金額，你的報告也是畫了一條紅線往下，代表這是逐年往下，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：從131億到81億。"],["洪委員孟楷：逐月往下嘛！但實際上是這個樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是逐月往下，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：實際上是這個樣子嗎？我們看一下過去這5個月。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然中間有高高低低啊！它一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們看一下過去這5個月嘛！來，你看一下過去這5個月。過去這5個月從2月，就像你剛剛講的，因為農曆……2月天數比較少，第二，農曆過年放假比較多，所以2月比較低，但從3月一直到7月，它其實是呈現逐步往上的數字。"],["卓院長榮泰：2月不是天數比較少而是詐團在休息。"],["洪委員孟楷：放連假嘛！但3月到7月是不是逐步往上？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但我的要求是不能往上升，一定要先……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在往上升了，所以你的要求看起來是破功了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是可以跟委員報告？就是我們要看從去年跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……我現在在請教院長。部長，除非你想篡位，否則的話先讓我請院長回答好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是一個急速的下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長、院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：圖形有所不同，但我不爭執這個事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在都是拿你今天的報告在跟你就教，我拿的都是你今天的報告，我不是要美化數字，數字是科學、數字是理性、數字是務實，但重點是本席現在看到的數字就是有問題，你不能拿出數字之後，然後給我一個圖表，畫一條橫線往下就以為可以催眠國人現在是往下，不對啊！每個月有八十幾億，5月是85億、6月是89億、7月是86億，有八十幾億的金額在被詐騙，平均一天是2億到3億。"],["鄭部長銘謙：經過我們打詐團隊的努力，像去年8月到12月都是一百多億嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：結果你現在一直在跟我吵，你不覺得這樣就是不理性、不科學的作法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在都是八十幾億，當然我們不滿意，但我想這個以長期來看就是有下降趨勢，代表我們打詐有看到一些成果……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你還要跟我扯趨勢是不是，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我認為我們還是不能滿足這樣的數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：你還要跟我扯趨勢嗎？這個是什麼趨勢？3歲小孩都看得懂的趨勢，你跟我扯趨勢！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟去年的比較上，它是下降的，現在逐月是高高低低，我們不滿意。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、院長，看來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在這裡的對話不要讓外界覺得您不滿意、我滿意，絕對不是，我們都不滿意。"],["洪委員孟楷：大家都不滿意。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會努力往下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以民眾的民怨才會那麼高，所以民眾才會希望大家好好地做實事、做真事、做對的事情，而不是浪費時間、浪費精力在搞其他的政治。部長，剛剛我有聽到黃珊珊委員有詢問到，因為我們認為每一個詐騙都是一個血淋淋的案例，但是我們也看到刑事警察局給本席的資料，今年1月到6月已經財損561億。如果看這個趨勢繼續下去，很有可能今年會破千億。院長，有什麼方法可以處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛在報告裡面都把基本上的方法講了，這些方法只會愈來愈精進，該橫向聯繫、該跨境合作、該加強懲詐的效果、跟司法院互相就法制面來強化等等，我們都會做，這個都已經在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們就法制面來處理法制面的問題。我先請教，因為剛剛黃珊珊委員也有提到一個案例，這是四天前的一個新聞……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我要不要跟委員說明……"],["洪委員孟楷：詐騙300萬被抓，車手假釋還高調拍片，說沒有想賠。我們看一下內容，因為剛剛聽起來是院長和部長沒有看到這個影片，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛也請部長要把這個影片找出來，看到底這個人是誰、是真是假、如何處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，他說錢已經被他花光了，法院只跟他強制扣留七千多塊，但是他花光了300萬，他本來不打算賠錢，認為錢關出來之後可以繼續花，但是因為要爭取假釋，所以他才要去和解。院長，如果到最後臺灣變成是笑貧不笑娼，如果臺灣社會變成是這種詐騙集團的車手可以這樣高調，用社群媒體平臺，還這樣肆無忌憚地把他的犯罪過程及犯罪狀況po在網路上，你可以允許、可以認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不允許、不認同，我們會處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們還要再查證……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們現在才來講是不是能夠針對騙多少、欠多少、罰多少修法？他騙了三百多萬，結果到最後他只被強制扣押七千多塊，可能是因為他三百多萬全部都已經花光了，所以他名下沒有這些財產。我們一般的民間借款，借了多少錢，可能都要還多少錢，欠款都要還款，但沒想到詐騙集團可以騙多少錢，卻不用還他騙的金額。院長，有沒有修法的空間？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要啟動修法，請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心的這個部分是在詐危條例第四十三條裡面，我們有就高額詐欺，以現在的來講的話，五百萬元是三到十年，一億元是五到十二年，現在我們要再多一個級距，我們是想要在中間增加，如果一千萬的話，就五到十二年，一億以上就七年以上。我想高額詐欺這個部分的確是要遏止，一定要嚴辦。現在這個修正草案在行政院審查中，這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘快，因為這個部分還要跟司法院來做一個討論，我們希望能夠儘快達成共識，把這個法案送到立法院來審議。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，剛剛部長回答的是針對詐騙嫌犯，但是本席剛剛有提到另外一部分，是針對他騙的錢，因為現在很多案件其實被騙的金額到最後也是拿不回來，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分跟委員報告，委員關心的是在詐危條例第四十六條和第四十七條，以現在刑事大法庭來講的話，他是採報酬說，所以他騙300萬，才扣押七千塊，這是很不公平，我想我們當初的立法本來就是要以被害人交付的被害金額說，我們現在有修正草案，在第四十六條、第四十七條，這個部分仿照德國立法例，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在是……"],["洪委員孟楷：也是草案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是同時，因為我們這個修了好幾條……"],["卓院長榮泰：8月14日有開會……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們6月送過去，最近密集地在開會、做審……"],["卓院長榮泰：最近就在開會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：密集開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，還是強調，你不能全部都積在行政院，你什麼時候可以來到立法院，我們共同討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這個還要跟司法院做討論……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：但我記得8月十幾日已經開過一次會了，開過會，如果有具體結論，我們就把它法制化完成，送交大院。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，3個月內有沒有辦法？現在是8月底了，9月、10月……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，下個會期一定提出來，好不好？一定提出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：下個會期是到12月。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定提出來讓大院有審議……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們希望是在總質詢結束之後，我們就可以來處理，所以才會定出3個月。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們一定提出來，讓大院有審議的時間。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，其實本席還有很多的問題、還有很多的意見，尤其是針對我們現在所謂的融資公司專法，因為大家看到很多新聞案件，融資公司現在也是有可能變成詐騙集團的一環，不要讓劣幣驅逐良幣。如果是合法的融資公司可以持續經營，但是很多非法的融資公司，它沒有受到法的管理的時候，很有可能就變成犯罪溫床。我們看到之前被逼死的那些民眾，很大部分也都是有融資公司在背後的影子。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會立法，把它加入納管。"],["洪委員孟楷：會立法納管？"],["卓院長榮泰：往這個方向，已經在努力了。"],["洪委員孟楷：金管會講的不是這樣子。院長，這是你的態度問題，本席還會再追這個議題，本席以及很多委員，不分藍綠、不分朝野都希望這個真的應該要納管，唯有納管……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要這樣做。"],["洪委員孟楷：才能夠真真正正把良幣保留，把劣幣去除，而不是像現在的狀況，亂象橫生。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢，張智倫委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}