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韓院長 我們有請我們的卓院長以及內政部的部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢院長好 兩位長官好我不知道你今天的報告這個是哪一位的幕僚幫你寫的"},{"start":36.434,"end":51.233,"text":"這個報告叫做睜眼說瞎話你知道吧你看到第四頁我也截了一段你們寫了說損失金額每月減少五億元但是從今年的二月"},{"start":52.474,"end":76.185,"text":"3月4月一路攀升一路攀升你怎麼好小意思講說每月減少5億這是睜眼說瞎話我們也要你回答你先不要回答不要急那麼我們來看按照這個來推估不是推估事實上是如此一年我們的被詐騙的金額高達1000億高達1000億是多我為了這個事情開過兩次公聽會"},{"start":79.417,"end":102.055,"text":"我幾乎我的辦公室啊幾乎每個禮拜一定有好幾件被炸的有老師 退休的老師有退休的公務員來一邊講一邊哭啊哎呀我這個開公聽會的時候找那個當事人來他講講就哭起來了七十幾歲他的所有的積蓄一千萬都沒了"},{"start":102.964,"end":130.627,"text":"都不去啊然後呢 那時候我找了內政部的警政署相關的長官來那個長官非常的認真跟他說這個 報告這個老師你這個錢大概要不回來了欸 多殘酷啊我們找長官來欸警政署長官來就告訴他沒有希望 為什麼平均如果真的能破 不一定能破能破大概一年拿回來多少 十把"},{"start":132.079,"end":142.528,"text":"拿回來這是最樂觀的最樂觀的就是一年能夠破案因為他立案就要一個月到三個月的時間然後再開始調查什麼之類的"},{"start":145.061,"end":167.646,"text":"真的 台灣很可憐的啦我們的打詐金額 預算越變越多打詐指揮中心 人員也都給你們愛人給你們 愛錢給你們結果我們的結果是這樣就是我每一次人家跟我講的時候我心裡都好難過 我說我能做什麼我跟立法委能做什麼好了 最近又看到一個 也是要跟我們澄清"},{"start":169.682,"end":194.446,"text":"錢沒有很多 可是我心裡也很痛他說 通知他 你電費少交了請你補49塊錢 台幣49點進去 49 進去以後就進去了好了 扣款扣多少 3萬8這是千真萬確的事實我的鄉民服務案 如果你要我都可以給你看"},{"start":196.052,"end":221.587,"text":"怎麼會這個樣子他叫我說我少交了四十幾塊錢結果一扣扣三萬八這就是詐騙集團這就是我們各自全部都洩露院長你知道嗎台灣的我們所有的人包括你我在內包括韓院長包括所有的部委首長"},{"start":222.935,"end":248.232,"text":"每一個人的個資通通在網上可以被交易總共多少錢你知道嗎全台灣2300萬人金額多少錢2300萬人的個資賣5000塊美金賣5000塊美金這是我們目前的狀況目前的狀況是這個樣子我們裡面有寫到院長 院長"},{"start":249.693,"end":269.431,"text":"你們今天說這本報告多少賭多少我們也不要在這裡口舌我當然我知道你回答很多你也不滿意 這個態度對這個態度對 可是我們希望要進取預計 針對問題我們來看比較客觀給你打分數 check GPT他幫你打分數"},{"start":274.049,"end":300.389,"text":"落實性給你5分25分裡面給5分等於100分的話就是給多少?給20分而已可衡量性10分而已創新性15分 條理完整作文比賽 你們25分得滿分 你看到你這切的GPT對你不錯說你很好作文 你很好作文但是你看"},{"start":301.209,"end":315.014,"text":"報告委員 我不會以60分為滿意我要更高 我們要努力我不會以60分為滿意 我要更高我要更高 不會以60分為滿意希望我們一起努力"},{"start":317.47,"end":341.443,"text":"好 這個兩位長官你們真的我是在第一線的我第一線的明帶這種案子實在太多了幾乎每個禮拜都有有時候這個禮拜多一點有時候這個禮拜少一點幾乎都有 心裡很痛啊因為來的幾乎都是退休的幾乎都是退休的他說 有的參加投資投資 現在投資最多啊"},{"start":342.908,"end":367.047,"text":"都跟這件事情有關係 洩露個資來我們來看喔我們那個書發部的長官也可以一起來齁這是審計部的報告 請看這個page審計部的報告我們打詐是不是應該有一個統一的窗口你現在看喔書發部編113年編了網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":373.519,"end":379.322,"text":"通報查詢網這幾個APP系統開發跟維護維運的預算1350萬114年平台維運5800多萬"},{"start":389.462,"end":406.793,"text":"我們165大家都知道啊 打電話詐騙了165打165165這個警政署這邊編了110萬可是呢 舉報的功能反詐騙平台編了1210萬老實講 這兩個是重組的報告委員 你聽不聽得懂不要急 不要急喔 不要急喔部長是說這數據有誤5月15號 蘇華部的正式上線結果通報只有7筆你知道嗎 4000筆"},{"start":416.957,"end":423.409,"text":"四千筆 絕對不值 我就查了這個是審計部的報告審計部的報告"},{"start":426.92,"end":450.598,"text":"我以上的資料都是審計部的審計部跟你查的 這很有公信力的什麼都不知 你不能夠以你的那種感覺來 我就請教院長 索巴部的黃部長先不要讓你講話來 院長你這個能不能整合一下能不能整合一下 你不要 這兩個都一樣啊有什麼不一樣 重複的啊重複啊 我預算裡面 所以你這個錢這樣子亂花一通"},{"start":451.243,"end":453.385,"text":"我們今年才上線 審計部應該沒有最新的資料"},{"start":474.545,"end":482.815,"text":"審計部的資料就114年這是我家進來的113年是審計部的資料114年是我的那審計部就是審計部的重點所以這兩個應該要結合我就告訴你這一點審計部的報告"},{"start":488.608,"end":505.972,"text":"報告委員我們現在下架的數目超過3萬就是說下架的數目所以這個數字是有嚴重錯誤他原來一上去5月15號我現在跟你講5月15號我不是講現在我跟你講5月15號5月15號我要跟你強調現在老實講老百姓習慣165老百姓習慣165"},{"start":509.982,"end":518.349,"text":"所以我覺得這次是稽開的我們蘇華部的黃部長請你回去我們再請衛福部的長官時間請暫停一下請衛福部備詢邱部長內政部的劉部長要可以先請回"},{"start":542.676,"end":568.432,"text":"今天啦 我特別講一個東西啊資料外洩 我們有民安 有網暗網 有社群通訊軟體然後呢 馬街醫院2002年的 今年的3月 他的資料外洩那時候我就去問給你們喔給你們喔 給衛福部喔 立法委員 賴司法辦公室去問給你"},{"start":569.656,"end":597.31,"text":"你們給我回答的是什麼你們給我回答的是說這是暗網 這不是暗網 這是明網這是明網 這不是暗網 OK然後今天最新的 今天剛出來的台灣阿比侯頭頸外科醫學會各自全部結論那個院長啊 你知道吧我們每一個人 很多人"},{"start":598.922,"end":622.381,"text":"以我為例 我就常常接到這個電話 也不是電話 簡訊簡訊就告訴我什麼地方可以投資你要投資嗎 什麼投資平台 加入什麼社 什麼投資社好了 那我就想 他怎麼有我的電話他怎麼有我的電話 我隨便一問 每一個人都有類似這樣的遭遇"},{"start":623.342,"end":646.789,"text":"我們的個資洩漏的非常的嚴重所以今天來講的話可以這麼講我今天要打砸怎麼樣防止個資的外洩是非常重要的我剛才一開始我就講了我們五千塊美金可以把台灣所有每一個人的個資都拿到這個是昨天晚上我看到的資料那個邱部長"},{"start":649.494,"end":664.472,"text":"這個B喉外科醫學會這裡面就是每一個大醫生他的姓名他的電話他的住址通在裡面請部長回答 說明一下好 包委"},{"start":665.625,"end":693.9,"text":"從今年3月我們開始發現醫院有相關的資安的一個資料的一個外線以後我們衛福部的資訊是馬上就召集我們所有的關鍵就是也就是急重症的醫院就是那個關鍵的醫院大概有二三十家我們就馬上來整個資安的一個部的一個檢視然後給他們一個SOP那除了這樣以後所以他們以後就"},{"start":694.639,"end":719.451,"text":"不會再發生這種情況那另外因為這樣的SOP台灣的醫院有幾百家所以也後來比較小型的醫院也希望他們也能夠有這樣的一個SOP所以我們也都布置下去了今天是鎖定衛福部鎖管的好多醫院都各自外洩的不會不會現在都已經我們都已經有給他們SOP新光也有啊對不對沒有我現在問你喔"},{"start":721.101,"end":739.248,"text":"那醫學會來講會比較因為醫學會還沒有列管到我們的這個好像醫療機構一樣他只是會員的資料不是病人的資料所以這個部分我們會來瞭解你對於現在醫院的治安有沒有做一些輔導"},{"start":742.257,"end":770.96,"text":"對醫院的治安我們有進行輔導當然我們從三月以後就我們已經給非常嚴格的用最高規格的來對三十家這種大型的醫院我們已經給他最嚴格的治安的指導然後接下來又把這個SOP做法給所有的醫院去遵照因為有些醫院沒辦法有那麼多資源來建造來建構這樣的一個治安網你要指導怎麼樣去"},{"start":771.929,"end":794.483,"text":"我有一句話 我們對醫院 對銀行 對電信公司 對護證所我們都展開這樣的 因為掌握了這個趨勢了各自的保護 針對這幾個機關你們要不要要求醫院設資安長這樣的一個做法 我想各個醫院都一定有資安的一個體系 一個主任銀行有資安長 但是醫院沒有"},{"start":799.625,"end":822.483,"text":"我們公立的各部會以及我們機關我們都設有資安長醫院沒有資安長如果沒有的話我們會請他能夠補上因為資安長確實在保護個資上面是需要的一定有資訊室主任但是資安長他的一個設立跟定位我們趕快來研議看看能不能配合整個政府的組織來一同步那個蘇華部的長官可以再一起來"},{"start":827.116,"end":853.104,"text":"這個最後一小題麻煩再請速發部備選那個邱部長可以請回謝謝我們都知道現在的詐騙變成是跨國性的那麼連結國際打擊假帳號我們跟Meta或者Google Line合作阻斷詐騙的廣告具體的規範跟KPI有沒有來 請教"},{"start":853.826,"end":872.323,"text":"自從炸房條例通過之後我們是定期密集的跟這四大平台網路廣告平台商有開會後來我們要求兩個基本要做到一個就是實名制一個就是他們收到所謂的下架的公文要在24小時內廣告下架這個他們"},{"start":873.905,"end":888.639,"text":"我們就執行一段時間以後發現Meta沒有做到所以我們已經罰過他兩次1600萬什麼時候可以全部做到我們現在就邀請現在就要全部做到但是現在沒有全部做到現在我們就是定期在查驗什麼時候可以"},{"start":891.201,"end":916.624,"text":"他們只要沒有做到我們馬上開罰所以現在我們還在檢查所以目前是這樣子現在其實對於那個詐騙的廣告其實可以RPG不是可以封嗎RPG是那種一頁式網站一頁式網站就是說如果是那種一頁式網站我們如果查到的話我們會進行所謂RPG把它遮蔽但是對LINE 對FACEBOOK"},{"start":917.262,"end":930.296,"text":"對Google這種公司你不可能把它全部遮蔽所以你只能要求它下架某些有問題的廣告所以對這次公司我們做法是用發文去要求它下降有問題的網頁有問題的廣告這是我們目前的目的好 謝謝賴思寶委員的資訊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時19分）謝謝主席、韓院長，有請卓院長及內政部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、內政部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長好、兩位長官好。我不知道你今天的報告是哪一位幕僚幫你寫的？這個報告叫做睜眼說瞎話，你知道吧？你看到第4頁，我也截了一段，你們寫「損失金額每月減少5億元」，但是從今年2月、3月、4月一路攀升！你怎麼好意思講說每月減少5億，這是睜眼說瞎話。我沒有要你回答，你先不要回答、不要急。那麼我們來看，按照這個來推估……不是推估，事實上是如此，一年我們被詐騙的金額高達一千億之多，我為了這個事情開過兩次公聽會，我的辦公室幾乎每個禮拜一定有好幾件被詐騙的案子，有退休的老師、有退休的公務員一邊講一邊哭，我開公聽會的時候找當事人來，他講講就哭起來了，他七十幾歲所有的積蓄1,000萬都沒了！那時候我找內政部警政署相關的長官來，那個長官非常地認真跟他說：報告老師，你這個錢大概要不回來了。多殘酷啊！我們找長官來耶，警政署長官告訴他沒有希望，為什麼？如果真的能破案，不一定能破，但能破的大概一年，拿回來多少？10%。拿回來10%這是最樂觀的，最樂觀的就是一年能夠破案，因為立案就要一個月到三個月時間，然後再開始調查什麼之類的，搞到最後真的……臺灣很可憐啦！我們的打詐金額預算越編越多，打詐指揮中心人力也都給你們，你們要人也給人、要錢也給錢，結果我們的結果是這樣，就是每一次人家來跟我講的時候，我心裡都好難過，我說我能做什麼？我身為立法委員能做什麼？","最近又看到一個也在跟我們陳情，錢沒有很多，可是我心裡也很痛，他說：通知他電費少繳了，請他補繳臺幣49塊錢。他說：我點49塊進去了以後，好了……扣款，扣多少？三萬八。這是千真萬確的事實，我的選民服務案，如果你要，我都可以給你看。他說：怎麼會這樣？怎麼會這個樣子？通知我少繳了四十幾塊錢，結果一扣就扣三萬八。這就是詐騙集團、這就是我們的個資全部都洩漏，院長，你知道嗎？臺灣所有的人，包括你我在內、包括韓院長、包括所有部會首長，每一個人的個資通通在網站上可以被交易，總共多少錢，你知道嗎？全臺灣2,300萬人金額多少錢？賣得有夠便宜，2,300萬的個資賣5,000塊美金！這是我們目前的狀況，目前的狀況是這個樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的報告後面有寫到。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，你們這樣子，還說這本報告有多棒就有多棒，我們也不要在這裡口舌啦！當然我也知道你回答很多委員說：你也不滿意。這個態度很好、這個態度是對的，可是我們希望要劍及履及、針對問題，我們來看比較客觀的ChatGPT幫你打分數，落實性給你5分，25分裡面給5分，等於100分的話就是給20分而已；可衡量性10分而已；創新性15分；條理完整性就是作文比賽，你們25分得滿分，你看到人家ChatGPT對你們不錯耶，說你們很會寫作，但是你看落實性……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我不會以60分為滿意。"],["賴委員士葆：好，總共55分而已啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不會以60分為滿意，我要更高。"],["賴委員士葆：那你目標幾分？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要更高，不會以60分為滿意，我希望我們一起努力。"],["賴委員士葆：好，兩位長官，你們真的……我是第一線的民代，這種案子實在太多了，幾乎每個禮拜都有，有時候多一點，有時候少一點，差別在此，但幾乎每個禮拜都有，心裡很痛啊！因為來的幾乎都是退休的！有的參加投資，現在投資最多啊，都跟一件事情有關係，洩漏個資。來，我們來看投影片，數發部的長官也可以一起來，這是審計部的報告，請看這個page。"],["主席：數發部請備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：打詐是不是應該有一個統一的窗口？你現在看哦！數發部113年編列網路詐騙通報查詢網，設計了一個app，系統開發與維運的預算1,350萬。114年平臺維運五千八百多萬。165（全民防騙網），大家都知道詐騙要打165，警政署編了110萬，可是舉報功能連結至165反詐騙平臺編了1,219萬，老實講這兩個是重複的。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽就好，不要急、不要急……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長是說這數據有誤啦。"],["賴委員士葆：5月15號數發部正式上線，結果通報只有幾筆，你知道嗎？4,000筆……"],["黃部長彥男：不止、不止。"],["卓院長榮泰：不止啦。"],["賴委員士葆：我去查的啊！這是審計部的報告，OK？以上的資料都是審計部查你們的，這很有公信力，什麼叫不止？你不能夠以你的感覺……","我請教院長，先不讓數發部黃部長講話。院長，你這個能不能整合一下？這兩個都一樣啊！有什麼不一樣？這重複啊！錢這樣子亂花一通，我還覺得警政署做得比較好咧！"],["黃部長彥男：網路詐騙通報查詢網是在一個人被騙以前，他可以去舉……我們用AI舉報……"],["賴委員士葆：警政署也在用AI啊！"],["黃部長彥男：警政署是被騙以後……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，一句話，我們今年才上線，審計部應該沒有最新的資料……"],["賴委員士葆：114年是我加進來的，113年是審計部的資料，114年是我的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有上線……"],["賴委員士葆：審計部的重點說這兩個應該要結合，我就告訴你這一點，審計部的報告……"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們現在下架的數目超過三萬，所以這個數字是有嚴重錯誤。"],["賴委員士葆：5月15號上線，我現在跟你講5月15號哦！我不是講現在啊，我跟你講5月15號。我要跟你強調的是，現在老實講，老百姓習慣165，他們是習慣165啦！所以我覺得這錢是多花的啦。數發部黃部長，請你回去。再請衛福部的長官，時間請暫停一下。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：內政部的劉部長可以先請回。"],["主席：內政部請回。"],["賴委員士葆：今天我特別講一個東西，資料外洩有從明網、暗網、社群及通訊軟體。馬偕醫院今（2025）年3月資料外洩，當時我就去文給衛福部，立法委員賴士葆辦公室去文，你們給我回答的是什麼？你們給我的回答是說：這是暗網。但這不是暗網，這是明網。然後今天最新剛出來的台灣耳鼻喉頭頸外科醫學會個資全部揭露。院長，你知道嗎？我們很多人，以我為例，我就常常接到電話，也不是電話，是簡訊，簡訊告訴我什麼地方可以投資，問你要投資嗎？加入投資平臺，什麼投資社，好了，我就想他怎麼有我的電話？我隨便一問，每一個人都有類似這樣的遭遇，我們的個資洩漏得非常嚴重，所以可以這麼講，我今天要打詐，怎麼樣防止個資的外洩是非常重要的。我剛才一開始就講了，5,000塊美金可以把臺灣每一個人的個資都拿到。","這是昨天晚上我看到的資料，邱部長，這是耳鼻喉外科醫學會，這裡面每一個大醫生，他的姓名、他的電話、他的住址通通在裡面……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長回答，說明一下。"],["賴委員士葆：所以發出去……請說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，從今年3月我們開始發現醫院有相關資安的資料外洩以後，我們衛福部的資訊處馬上就召集急重症的醫院，就是關鍵的醫院，大概有30家，我們馬上檢視整個資安，然後給他們一個SOP，所以他們以後就不會再發生這種情況。另外，因為這樣的SOP，臺灣的醫院有幾百家，所以後來比較小型的醫院也希望他們能夠有這樣的一個SOP……"],["賴委員士葆：現在這種……"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們都布置下去了。"],["賴委員士葆：今天只鎖定衛福部所管轄的，好多醫院都個資外洩。"],["邱部長泰源：不會、不會，現在都已經……"],["賴委員士葆：有好多耶，包括部桃、新光也有啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們都已經有給他們SOP。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我現在問你……"],["邱部長泰源：醫學會來講會比較……因為醫學會還沒有列管到我們的這個……好像醫療機構一樣，他只是會員的資料，不是病人的資料，所以這個部分我們會來了解。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你對於現在醫院的資安有沒有做一些輔導？"],["卓院長榮泰：對醫院的資安，我們有進行輔導。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有輔導？"],["卓院長榮泰：有進行輔導。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，我們從3月以後，我們已經非常嚴格，用最高規格來對30家這種大型的醫院，我們已經給他最嚴格的資安指導，接下來又把這個SOP、作法給所有的醫院去遵照，因為有些醫院沒辦法有那麼多資源來建構這樣的資安網。"],["賴委員士葆：你要怎麼樣去指導……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，一句話，我們對醫院、對銀行、對電信公司、對戶政所，我們都展開這樣的……"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你一句話，部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為掌握這個趨勢了，個資的保護，針對這幾個機關……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你們要不要要求醫院設資安長，要不要有這樣的作法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想各個醫院都一定有資安的一個體系。"],["卓院長榮泰：都有資安長。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有喔！"],["邱部長泰源：一個主任……"],["賴委員士葆：銀行有資安長，但是醫院沒有，有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們公立的各部會以及我們機關，我們都設有資安長。"],["賴委員士葆：醫院沒有資安長。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有的話，我們會請他補上，因為資安長確實在保護個資上面是需要的。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：一定有資訊室主任，但是資安長的設立跟定位，我們趕快研議看看能不能配合整個政府的組織來同步。"],["賴委員士葆：現在個資外洩這麼嚴重……數發部的長官可以一起來，最後一小題。"],["主席：麻煩再請數發部備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：邱部長可以請回。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我們都知道現在的詐騙變成是跨國性的，連結國際打擊假帳號，我們跟Meta或者Google、LINE合作阻斷詐騙的廣告，請教有沒有具體的規範跟KPI？"],["黃部長彥男：自從詐防條例通過之後，我們定期、密集地跟這四大網路廣告平臺商開會，後來我們要求2個最基本要做到的，一個就是實名制，還有一個就是他們收到下架的公文，要在24小時內將廣告下架，我們執行一段時間以後發現Meta沒有做到，所以我們已經罰過他兩次，1,600萬。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以全部做到？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在就要求全部做到。"],["賴委員士葆：但是現在沒有全部做到，有嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：不是，現在我們就是定期在查驗。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以全部做到？給我時間表。"],["黃部長彥男：他們只要沒有做到，我們馬上開罰，所以現在我們還在檢查，目前是這樣子，目前因為……"],["賴委員士葆：現在其實對於詐騙的廣告可以RPZ。"],["黃部長彥男：不是，RPZ是一頁式網站，如果是一頁式網站，我們如果查到的話，我們會進行所謂的RPZ把它遮蔽，但是對LINE、對Facebook、對Google這種公司，你不可能把它全部遮蔽，你只能要求他下架某些有問題的廣告，所以對這些公司，我們作法是用發文去要求他下架有問題的廣告，這是我們目前的作法。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有執行的會再開罰。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請李坤城委員質詢，楊瓊瓔委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}