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再把它往下降我們現在思索更多的方式現在幾乎是呈現一個比較水平的狀態我們現在在思索是如何把它往下降所以第一個不讓它往上升"},{"start":218.263,"end":228.865,"text":"初期達到這樣的要求所以我們幾項速度在我們設定是達標的但這些達標不代表我們有多少成效是我們現在下一個階段就是希望把它往下降"},{"start":229.818,"end":251.452,"text":"所以我們現在目前先控管數字不要往上飆升用的方法就是剛剛我們所說的市詐賭詐房詐主詐以及懲詐這幾項內容他也達標了那我們還用科技引入找出這個潛在的被害人等等的方式而且我們知道年輕人跟"},{"start":252.566,"end":271.884,"text":"退休的比較高齡的朋友們他們容易在某些季節裡面變成受害的對象我們也鎖定這些關鍵的時刻院長我們不斷在宣導我們不斷在把這些訊息讓我們周邊的人知道可是為什麼"},{"start":274.093,"end":297.911,"text":"重點在哪裡是因為對方就是詐騙的人他的手法日新月異但是我們都是由各個單位然後固定一個禮拜開一次會如果必要的時候才由政委召集會議你知道政委召集幾次會議了嗎"},{"start":300.202,"end":311.262,"text":"林明清政委是經常召集很多次會議我沒有辦法算出他幾次會議還有他跟司法院也在做溝通其實政委召集會議就四次那雖然我們"},{"start":313.39,"end":330.256,"text":"每個禮拜每個月我們這些小組打造辦公室指揮中心都會開會可是我們被負責的部分就是只有報告而已而且我們沒有一個主責單位"},{"start":332.657,"end":360.913,"text":"在抓出到底別人怎麼在利用心理因素然後日新月異的詐騙手法我們沒有一個單位主要在監控這些訊息你知道這個詐騙集團他是每天他覺得你有辦法突破我我就有辦法突破你"},{"start":364.562,"end":373.931,"text":"可是重點是人家是一個集團每天就是在思考這些詐騙的手法但是我們有沒有這樣的主責單位每天在跟他鬥法沒有"},{"start":384.69,"end":410.178,"text":"我們都只是有了這些訊息被詐騙了收集這些資料變成樣板然後我們再從這些樣板思考這些方式去針對它去防堵它但是人家已經又換了一個手法了現在的問題是在這裡所以你看喔我們的資料我把它特別調出來"},{"start":411.345,"end":433.31,"text":"我們被詐騙的被害人其實24歲到39歲他是最高峰的他是最高峰的然後第二順位是誰40歲到59歲然後再來是12歲到23歲你知道光24歲到39歲他最被詐騙的人數就52140人"},{"start":440.011,"end":445.434,"text":"然後40歲到59歲被詐騙的是38,792人12歲到23歲是24,424人我們有沒有去分析為什麼24歲到39歲被詐騙的人是最多的"},{"start":460.543,"end":489.554,"text":"我們如果沒有從這個族群去做分析我們沒有辦法了解為什麼我們的被詐騙人數一直居高不下再來我們從詐騙被害人的這些資料收集他的教育程度其實高中職是最高峰的是第一名的總共占了六萬四千兩百五十二位"},{"start":490.629,"end":511.167,"text":"大專是第二是佔了44943為什麼我們有沒有去了解為什麼在教育程度當中被詐騙的第一名教育程度是高中職然後第二名是大專院校"},{"start":512.662,"end":533.052,"text":"如果我們沒有把這些細節把它區分出來我們就不知道問題會出在哪裡所以你看我們的數字2024年2024年被損失的金額總共整年度是1332億250萬2547元"},{"start":540.626,"end":567.079,"text":"到了目前2025年截至到7月底為止是565億5680萬5000元你看我們不斷的在宣導其實我們走到哪裡都在宣導我們都跟大家講拜託天上沒掉下來的禮物從簡訊跟你說恭喜你中獎了可是"},{"start":570.677,"end":584.191,"text":"一開始他們用簡單說恭喜你中獎可是現在他們的手法已經改變了他們居然可以了解到你都在哪一個網站買東西"},{"start":587.133,"end":608.248,"text":"而且都知道說你可能在哪一個時段哪一個時間你密集在哪一個網站買東西然後突然之間傳了一個訊息給你說我告訴你因為你在哪裡哪一個網站買東西但是我們都刷了"},{"start":609.815,"end":638.532,"text":"那你會不會很懷疑 不會啊因為他講的資訊很正確啊我確實在哪一個時間 哪一個時段我有在哪一個網站買東西所以他就打電話去問說 欸 你說我多刷了 你要退還給我就中了我的經驗 我都用貨到付款絕不給他賬號"},{"start":640.37,"end":662.025,"text":"但是我們現在手機LiPayApplePay非常的方便非常的方便根本就不會想到用貨到付款除非我們開始宣導拜託大家貨到付款可以這樣宣導嗎"},{"start":663.677,"end":687.901,"text":"不一定每個人都適用對啊不一定每個人都適用嘛所以我一直在講為什麼我們這個族群24到39歲族群是最多的因為這個族群用LiPay Apple Pay非常多最方便還有第二名是40到59歲因為這個年齡層也是"},{"start":693.717,"end":709.018,"text":"第三12歲到23歲剛好這三個年齡層所以我說院長你應該責成他們去做分析要把這些問題點找出來我們才有防炸的一個利基點"},{"start":710.382,"end":738.989,"text":"還有為什麼明明我們常在講我們不斷宣導希望大家不要受騙那應該我們受教育的程度如果越高的話我們認為應該比較不會受騙但是為什麼不一定為什麼我們要不要找出原因我們現在常常在活動當中跟阿公阿嬤去宣導可是如果依照這個數字"},{"start":741.139,"end":761.742,"text":"應該被宣導的阿公阿嬤很重要可是在24歲到39歲也很重要所以我在講的是我們要對症下藥要怎麼對症下藥如果我們沒有把這些數字很清楚的做分析那我們很難對症下藥啊"},{"start":763.739,"end":782.515,"text":"我相信內政部 警政署 打詐中心他們都有做各種不同的分析今天我們呈現出來的是從案件來做分析這個年齡的分析 族群的分析應該都是一個基礎上的分析我可以請他們應該有做這個分析的資料我們跟委員一起來研究"},{"start":783.134,"end":801.786,"text":"院長不是只有分析就是他們有分析啊所以我才拿得到這些資料啊就是他們有所謂族群這個哪一個年齡層最多然後那個次多的是誰就是因為他們有這個所以我拿得到資料重點是為什麼"},{"start":803.54,"end":822.083,"text":"為什麼我們要去把這些案例做一個比對是不是這些人因為用iPad、iPad比較多用Apple Pay的比較多或做什麼樣的一個直接用手機支付的比較多網路購物的比較多我覺得我們去做這個分析"},{"start":823.221,"end":838.26,"text":"所以院長 因為這些資料一定是他們有把它分析出來有這個基礎我只是拜託他們有沒有把所有的案例再做比對為什麼"},{"start":839.721,"end":868.522,"text":"應該我們要的是這些比較潛在的資料那麼我們才能對於這些族群去做一些宣導甚至一些防堵甚至有一些要求我們一定要有這樣的一個數字所以院長這是我的想法非常好我們不想要拜託你 必要是朝這個方向因為我們在地方實在是接受太多的訊息了"},{"start":869.73,"end":882.933,"text":"所以拜託院長可能要折成我們這些相關單位來做這個部分那剩只有幾秒鐘的時間我跟院長報告一下要拜託一下我的板子呢"},{"start":886.943,"end":913.234,"text":"我要拜託我們的這個院長因為我板子沒拿下來就是說院長有兩個部分拜託就是我們家戶這個防水閘板的部分家戶防水閘板申請趕快做專案的核准凱米有 我們丹納斯沒有大家都期待第二個就是農民勞工的紓困貸款"},{"start":916.036,"end":927.967,"text":"這個會有一個及時語這個及時語很重要這兩個部分拜託院長給我們一個最快速的一個回應我們盡量納入特別條例特別預算當中來好 謝謝陳廷飛委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（16時50分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好，辛苦了，謝謝你。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長這幾天、這段時間除了要忙著我們臺南的風災、雨災，還有很多縣市的狀況，你辛苦了，但打詐也是很重要的議題。我知道從我們民進黨執政以來，甚至是賴總統上任以來，其實我們對於打詐的議題是非常關注的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後從賴總統開始，我們也一路從2024年有了打詐五法，也有打詐新四法，但是我們也重新建立所謂的打詐儀錶板，讓大家可以看得到到底我們現在被詐騙的數字有多少，所以很多人就說，感覺好像我們的數字越來越多，可是賴總統說：不是，是因為我們要求所有各單位、各部會要據實呈現所有人員或是人民被詐騙的數字。所以這可以讓人感受到我們沒有掩飾、也沒有掩蓋所有的狀況，讓大家可以很清楚了解。原本我們是期待大家看到這些數字會很驚慌、會很擔憂，可是我們看了之後，反而有一度數字可能有稍微往下降，但之後又往上了。","我們也看到了最近的幾個案例，臺中一家五口命案，死者說：「我們全家都被詐騙了，沒有錢，走上了絕路」；還有看到汐止老夫妻輕生，因為被詐騙了250萬，這些都是眼睜睜讓我們看到的數字跟這些社會案件的發生。我要問院長，在我們的打詐五法、打詐新四法之後，然後我們也看到了打詐儀錶板，整個數字從113年8月一路下來，到了114年1月、2月，好像有往下降了，可是還是再往上飆升，對於我們看到的這些數字，院長，你有什麼感受？"],["卓院長榮泰：比較低的月份，它有它的因素，就是每年大概在那個時候是比較低的，往年都是這樣子。我們現在是每個禮拜，剛剛說過了，在我們的政務會議中，林明昕政委都會把這個數字向政委們說明，我們就有一直在掌握，不論如何不讓它再往上升，一定先把它壓平，再把它往下降。我們現在有在思索更多的方式，而且現在幾乎是呈現一個比較水平的狀態，我們現在在思索的是如何把它往下降，所以第一個是不讓它往上升，這個我們粗淺有達到這樣的要求，所以有幾項的數字在我們的設定上是達標的，但這些達標不代表我們有多少的成效，現在我們下一個階段的目標就是希望把它往下降。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們目前是先控管，讓數字不要往上飆升？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，使用的方法就是剛剛我們所說的識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐以及懲詐這幾項內容，它也達標了，我們還用科技引入，找出潛在的被害人等等的方式，而且我們知道年輕人跟已經退休、比較高齡的朋友們容易在某些季節裡面變成受害的對象，我們也鎖定這些關鍵的時刻。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，我們不斷在宣導，我們不斷讓我們周邊的人知道這些訊息，可是為什麼？重點在哪裡？就是對方也就是詐騙者的手法日新月異。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我們都是由各個單位固定一個禮拜開一次會，如果必要的時候才由政委召集會議，你知道政委召集幾次會議了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：林明昕政委召集了很多次會議，我沒有辦法算出是幾次會議，還有他跟司法院也在做溝通。"],["陳委員亭妃：我跟院長報告，其實政委召集的會議就是4次，雖然我們這些小組、打詐辦公室、指揮中心每個禮拜、每個月都會開會，可是所負責的部分就是只有報告而已，而且我們沒有一個主責單位在抓出別人到底怎麼利用心理因素然後想出日新月異的詐騙手法，我們沒有一個單位是主要在監控這些訊息。你知道嗎？詐騙集團是每天在想，他覺得你有辦法突破我，我就有辦法突破你，仙拚仙！重點是人家是一個集團，每天就是在思考這些詐騙的手法，在想要怎麼樣從別人的手裡騙錢，可以騙多少算多少，但是我們有沒有這樣的主責單位每天在跟他鬥法？沒有！我們都只是有這些訊息，有人被詐騙了，蒐集這些資料變成樣板，然後我們再從這些樣板思考一些方式去針對他們進行防堵，但是人家已經又換了一個手法，現在的問題是在這裡。","你看我們的資料，我有特別調出來，我們被詐騙的被害人其實以24歲到39歲為最高峰；然後第二順位是誰？就是40歲到59歲；再來是12歲到23歲。你知道嗎？光是24歲到39歲被詐騙的人數就有5萬2,140人；然後40歲到59歲被詐騙的是3萬8,792人；12歲到23歲是2萬4,424人。我們有沒有去分析為什麼24歲到39歲被詐騙的人是最多的？我們如果沒有就這個族群去做分析，我們就沒有辦法了解為什麼我們被詐騙的人數一直居高不下。","再來，我們從詐騙被害人的這些資料分析他的教育程度，其實高中職是最高峰的，是第一名的，總共有6萬4,252位；大專是第二，有4萬4,943人。為什麼會這樣？我們有沒有去了解為什麼被詐騙者居第一名的教育程度是高中職，然後第二名是大專院校？如果我們沒有把這些細節區分出來，我們就不知道問題是出在哪裡。","你看我們的數字，在2024年損失金額整年度總共是1,332億250萬2,547元；在2025年截至7月底是565億5,680萬5,000元。你看我們不斷的在宣導，其實我們走到哪裡都在宣導，我們都跟大家講：拜託，天上沒掉下來的禮物！從簡訊跟你說「恭喜你中獎了」，那是騙人的。","可是一開始他們簡單說「恭喜你中獎」，可是現在他們的手法已經改變了，他們居然可以了解到你都在哪一個網站買東西，而且都知道你可能在哪一個時段、哪一個時間、密集在哪一個網站買東西，然後突然之間傳了一個訊息給你：因為你在哪裡、哪一個網站買東西，但是他們多刷了。那你會不會很懷疑？不會，因為他講的資訊很正確，你確實在哪一個時間、哪一個時段、有在哪一個網站買東西。所以就會有人打電話去問：你說我多刷了，你要退還給我。就中了！"],["卓院長榮泰：依我的經驗，我都用貨到付款，絕不會給他帳號。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我們現在手機LINE Pay、Apple Pay非常的方便。"],["卓院長榮泰：太簡單、太輕易了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對不對？非常的方便，根本就不會想到用貨到付款，除非我們開始宣導：拜託大家貨到付款。可以這樣宣導嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定每個人都適用。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，不一定每個人都適用嘛。所以我一直在講，為什麼24到39歲這個族群是最多的？因為這個族群用LINE Pay、Apple Pay非常多，最方便；還有第二名是40到59歲，因為這一個年齡層也是；第三名是12歲到23歲，剛好這三個年齡層。所以我說院長應該責成他們去做分析，要把這些問題點找出來，我們才有防詐的一個立基點。","還有，明明我們不斷宣導、希望大家不要受騙，因此受教育程度如果越高的話，我們認為應該比較不會受騙……"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定。"],["陳委員亭妃：不一定嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：為什麼？我們要不要找出原因？我們現在常常在活動當中跟阿公阿嬤宣導，可是如果依照這個數字，應該被宣導的……阿公阿嬤很重要，可是24歲到39歲也很重要。","所以我在講的是，我們要對症下藥，要怎麼對症下藥？如果我們沒有把這些數字很清楚地做分析，那我們很難對症下藥啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我相信內政部警政署打詐中心都有做各種不同的分析，包含今天我們呈現出來的這種依案件做分析，另外年齡的分析、族群的分析應該都是一個基礎上的分析，我可以請他們將這些分析資料跟委員一起來研究。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，不是只有分析，就是他們有分析，所以我才拿得到這些資料，他們有針對所謂的族群，包含哪一個年齡層最多、次多的是誰，就是因為他們有這個分析，所以我拿得到資料。","重點是為什麼！要知道為什麼，我們要去把這些案例做比對，是不是因為這些人用LINE Pay的比較多、用Apple Pay的比較多，或是用手機支付的比較多、網路購物的比較多，我覺得我們要去做這個分析。院長，這些資料一定是他們有把它分析出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：基礎上都有這些資料。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，有這個基礎，我只是拜託他們要把所有的案例再做比對，關於為什麼！我們要的應該是這些比較潛在的資料，那麼我們才能對於這些族群去做一些宣導，甚至一些防堵、甚至有一些要求，我們一定要有這樣的一個數字，院長，這是我的想法，所以要拜託你……"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好，必定是朝這個方向……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們在地方實在是接受太多的訊息了，所以拜託院長可能要責成這些相關單位來做這個部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["陳委員亭妃：剩下只有幾秒鐘的時間，我跟院長報告，要拜託一下院長，有兩個部分，就是我們家戶防水閘板的部分，申請的家戶防水閘板要趕快做專案的核准，凱米有，但我們丹娜絲沒有，大家都很期待。第二個就是農民、勞工的紓困貸款，這個會有一個及時雨，這個及時雨很重要，這兩個部分拜託院長給我們一個最快速的回應，拜託！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們儘量納入特別條例、特別預算當中來一併處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員質詢、謝謝卓院長備詢。","報告院會，現在在我們議場二樓旁聽的是來自香港之友會、莒光文化服務中心兩個團體，熱情掌聲、熱情歡迎。","接下來請葛如鈞委員質詢，林楚茵委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}