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我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29.232,"end":52.75,"text":"邱委員好 院長好首先我要代表苗栗縣謝謝院長在這一次一般性補助款給苗栗的援助當然也謝謝我們陳主席長的聯繫當然這個事情是一歸一 二歸二我還是要把這個事情把它理清楚我請院長我們先看一下我們確認一下我們這個圓餅圖"},{"start":57.008,"end":86.217,"text":"那灰色的部分是我們中央法定的支出中央法定支出包括公務員薪水以及其他法律義務支出還有就是一般性的補助款那這些是立法院不能刪行政院也不能刪不能隨意變動的還有地方的計畫型補助是這樣嗎以剛剛那個圖來看各種補助都會規定他應該有所補助的項目但是補助的"},{"start":87.253,"end":98.975,"text":"比例是行政院跟地方可以在透過財政結構的不同而加以討論出來的行政院認為已經沒有多餘的財源的時候地方財源也在"},{"start":100.194,"end":121.21,"text":"有所爭域那我們就會有這個調整的空間所以這個是在補助的項目當中我們做一些拙減補助而已我們再講我們再看另外一張文字敘述洪匡的部分有沒有寫錯他說公務員薪資及已簽約需履約的等法律義務支出"},{"start":121.77,"end":149.076,"text":"加上2500億一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不能變動的這個部分應該是沒有彈性中央法定支出這樣有寫錯嗎但是它是一個項目的指定它並沒有定額或是定比例所以額數比例就是一個行政院依照政府國家財政的結構來調整因為你們來的公文裡面就叫我們不能動了嘛為什麼你們自己還在動呢"},{"start":151.32,"end":176.054,"text":"對不起行政院怎麼可以去刪呢我要問的是這個就是因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除636億我們可以自行調整的部分我們就經過很多次的計算之後我們盤點出來各項可能立法院有刪除嗎立法院沒有刪除立法院沒有刪除的地方是這個一般是補助款但是立法院要求行政院自行調整那你們不會調啊"},{"start":177.964,"end":194.802,"text":"你們自己不會刪嗎還是說我們來幫你刪地方信 一般信補助款立法院一塊錢都沒有動的原因有兩個一個是遵循法的原則另一個是我們都知道這些經費對地方來講是非常重要的"},{"start":195.362,"end":213.857,"text":"但行政院跟我們認為的中華民國的法律不太一樣都會自己發明解釋變成民進黨政府的抄議創新版3月21號的財化法總統公告以後足記處4月23號發的這張公文給地方說中央對地方的一般性補助款要扣"},{"start":215.459,"end":232.298,"text":"而且主計當初 當初院長給三個方案一個是三在席一個是三地方補助款跟在席各辦另外一個是三地方補助款我們院長是直接拍板就是三地方補助款這樣對吧這樣主計的說法對不對"},{"start":235.132,"end":263.107,"text":"很多的方案才去做一個模擬看什麼樣的刪減對我們現在這個行政體系在運作方面最不會有困難所以後來才決定你刪減選擇三地方補助款這個來講說就第一次違法了同時也說明院長感受不到地方的需求所以院長我認為說你不能說我們在野黨不了解地方也不了解地方政府的需求"},{"start":266.02,"end":288.692,"text":"當初在刪減中央政府總預算的時候這種需求何在呢對 你現在要用追加預算來平行民怨但是又拿不出合法的預算用預算法79條的理由來追加就已經是第二次違法了你現在用這個來追加也是陷害我們在野黨不義嘛我們是依照預算法來辦理依照預算法的內容規定來辦理追加預算是讓你們統三 讓行政院好做事"},{"start":289.412,"end":311.213,"text":"對不對那我們也都知道這筆錢不能刪可是你偏偏去刪了這一個現在拿回來補助如果我們給你通過如果給你通過那就失去我們原本預算的意義如果不過你就說我們自己刪的往年有統三第一個數額沒這麼大統三的結果都是經由兩院協調出來的而不是像今年"},{"start":311.713,"end":332.359,"text":"金額這麼龐大而且不經過跟行政院的協調就要求行政院自行刪除你一直說沒有辦法刪嘛我來跟你講啦你不會刪我來幫你刪就是說我們內政部長不是說嗎那個中華人民共和國是一個國家那就是外交部了嘛對不對那所以陸委會所以這件事情就是外交部的事陸委會是不是就會裁撤了"},{"start":333.92,"end":356.522,"text":"這樣就有80幾萬外交部變端交部而且還不懂國際禮儀預算這麼多也沒有發揮功能所以先把中華民國的人民照顧好砍一砍幾十億也有文化部拿錢太多拿去補助罷免文宣沒有善盡驗收的職責計畫可以砍一砍至少幾十億每個部會都有負責治安的單位"},{"start":358.846,"end":383.337,"text":"我們都不需要治安民眾也認為我們速發部是酬庸的單位連民進黨委員都說速發部只有總機的功能所以我們國家都不需要治安所以就直接把它廢掉你不是說每個部會都有了嗎這樣就有300多億光電 光儲 風電 開發問題一堆你們不先檢討還要硬推經濟部把這些標案跟開發先砍掉就好了就上百億我相信你會得到掌聲 對不對"},{"start":385.188,"end":413.728,"text":"邱委員這句話如果列入國會紀錄將來來檢討一定有很多人會拿這個來當作一個非常可笑的一個內容你要把國家的能源政策全部刪掉外交部全部刪掉自然全部刪掉你可以檢討沒有叫你全部刪掉我沒有叫你裁撤外交部喔你要搞清楚我是叫你裁撤陸委會把陸委會裁撤掉對啊你不是說是國對國關係不是嗎那為什麼不撤掉呢那再來看"},{"start":415.359,"end":437.024,"text":"再來看我們一個影片萊爾校長說不是多數贏就可以這有符合你現在的中心思想嗎對不起 我不曉得你這個話從哪裡來的院長你以現在的認知中華民國是民主國家嗎今天我們可以站在這裡對話我們就是一個民主國家"},{"start":438.16,"end":460.845,"text":"所以你也不認同萊爾校長講的話嘛我不知道你在講的是誰我沒有說他是誰就是萊爾校長我不知道這個人你說的是誰沒有看過是不是沒有看過待會再放一次這是一個影片啊待會我加到你的like可以嗎我加到你的like裡面可以嗎加到我的like裡面"},{"start":462.222,"end":486.63,"text":"好不好 不要講這個也不用去說你認不認識我只是問你說你認不認同他的話因為8月1號立法院的決議要求行政院主計處必須依照立法院當初刪減的總預算的決議去調整這個部會的預算同時立即撥付地方的一般性補助款"},{"start":487.31,"end":513.9,"text":"那當年表決結果有57人贊成 48人反對 一人棄權你現在又不要照這個表決的結果來執行所以是民進黨說可以才可以是嗎我不是照表決結果的執行但是我今天送出來的最佳預算就是在解決共同的問題你那個是還是不承認你當初的錯啊你還是把這個東西丟回來給我們把這個球丟來丟去 這樣有意思嗎"},{"start":514.6,"end":533.031,"text":"我只是不能錯上加錯原始的錯到了我們身上再加一個錯這不能動的就是不能動如果你其他的部會我們常常講 講了好幾次如果說你認為其他部會有些自在難行的部分你可以針對這件事情來追加碼你這樣整包丟回來就有點不尊重立法院了"},{"start":533.311,"end":560.598,"text":"這也是跟各部位商討過有各部位提出需要追加的預算程序跟內容所以依照這個來提出的878億的追加預算我知道你會用光劍不知道你什麼時候還學的茅山法術用這個借室黃魂都會的預算法有告訴你可以這樣做嗎就是說你說這個叫解決問題茅山道士的這個借室黃魂也可以叫做延續生命 對不對"},{"start":562.52,"end":569.023,"text":"今天我們討論的是如何解決各部分跟地方的問題我們是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後造成行政院我們是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後行政院所造成的自然難行"},{"start":585.811,"end":607.345,"text":"好 你們想挑戰人民的底線所以我提出的方式 你們的耐性還剩下多少提出的方式是在彌補立法院造成刪減預算之後行政院的自在難行你們就是想只要錢離開以後每年都可以先刪減地方補助款我們在這邊是一步一步都不能退我也希望立法院以後審查預算不得再用這樣的方式"},{"start":608.835,"end":630.256,"text":"違反憲法的精準規定而且要行政院就推下去636億這樣的事件應該有的一般性補助款一毛錢都不能少而且你們沒有權力苛扣因為這是依法編列的所以在8月1號的表決但是很遺憾我看不到我們民進黨委員不願意跟地方站在一起你應該很清楚這不是中央的恩賜"},{"start":630.99,"end":654.264,"text":"而是依法本來就應該足而撥付給地方的錢這點沒有討價還價的空間我希望院長今天提出的追加預算就是希望中央跟行政立法兩位共同為中央跟地方解決問題極權的國家希望這個院長你們再思考一下另外我再講財化法我直接問剛剛我有看了一下"},{"start":656.75,"end":682.981,"text":"王文威委員剛剛他的質詢跟我的題目差不多就是說我直接問你115年的總預算編列的依據是不是用新的修正的才化法才化法來上路來編列明年的總預算我們是依照總統所公告的才化法的內容來編列沒有錯所以剛剛我有聽到就是說我們是以前2501億來做基底是這樣嗎"},{"start":688.376,"end":717.614,"text":"一般性補助是在審查的時候在修法的時候有下了這麼一條規定這也是前所未有的我覺得這個也是侵犯行政院編列預算的權利但是已經法律已經生效了我們另外試圖用其他的方式來做做其他的救濟但是我們還是依照總統所公布的財化法生效的財化法財化法的文字清清楚楚寫了不得低於這個前一年的預算過去所沒有過的一種"},{"start":719.207,"end":737.149,"text":"前置行政院編列預算權利的一種方式這一點你們照做我是給你們肯定我也覺得這是對的那我希望說在這個前提之下我們把這個預算好好的整理出來主席長我也可以跟您講就是說"},{"start":737.97,"end":765.356,"text":"如果在這個方面你們編列之後我碰到什麼問題我們在野黨的立委我相信都是大門打開來可以坐下來好好談如果你們碰到的問題真的是我們認為你能說服大家說這個問題確實存在我們大家都很願意坐下來談我希望行政院跟立法院不是對立的單位也不是兩個對立的一個機關我們是為這個國家為這個地方來好好做事情這樣可以嗎"},{"start":766.991,"end":796.347,"text":"像這次我們的風災如果我們有多的稅計剩餘我們可以直接用稅計剩餘來編列特別預算那現在我們必須舉債再如我們日前到苗栗去關於這種地方道路的開通我們現在還有能力來協助地方未來這種能力顯然上市所以我剛剛聽王國威委員的時候您有講到我們的就是計畫型的補助會做調整對吧是這樣嗎 其他還有沒有調整的部分主席想請問一下還有沒有調整的部分"},{"start":797.435,"end":809.264,"text":"準備中在籌備中已經8月底要送出來了嘛 剩下幾天餒對 8月29送你可以先透露嘛 你大概會調整什麼我們還在"},{"start":811.416,"end":836.514,"text":"計劃型補助我認同如果你其他的錢都是照那個我們講的一開始這樣編列的時候那我也贊成說這個計劃型補助可以做調整這個當然是本來就是可以的這個因為地方有錢了你們本來就是可以去做這個調整這個我是支持的委員很清楚特別統籌統籌分配稅款會多4000億左右到地方去分配"},{"start":837.694,"end":865.355,"text":"所以這個分配到地方去地方到底要做什麼事情我前兩天聽到啦我前兩天聽到就是說可能行政院就會把這個教育基金或者是我們的一般性補助款直接拿掉原本該給我們的你不給我們了然後再從這個多的從這個財化法裡面統統分配稅款裡面加在比如說苗栗縣多137億那一般性補助款是50億教育基金是40億那整個90億扣掉之後我們多了47億"},{"start":867.356,"end":882.101,"text":"這個觀念我不希望看到這樣子我們還在每個縣市不同的狀況最後還在盤整當中你原本的一般性的補助款該給的就是要給那其他計劃型的提的中央的政策的我覺得這個這個比例的分攤我覺得是可以談的"},{"start":884.082,"end":907.991,"text":"我們請主席總署來把委員的意見列入參考好不好 那我就麻煩主席長不要 希望說這個月底的時候我們看到的是一個很好的結果那我也相信這樣有助於我們朝野的這個和諧國家的進步 好不好也請委員提亮中央政府目前遇到編列預算極大的困難 謝謝好 謝謝院長 謝謝好 謝謝邱政軍"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（15時18分）主席好，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長好。首先我要代表苗栗縣謝謝院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在這次一般性補助款給苗栗的援助，也謝謝陳主計長的聯繫。當然，一歸一、二歸二，我還是要把事情釐清楚。首先我請院長看一下、確認一下這個圓餅圖，灰色部分是中央法定支出，中央法定支出包括公務員薪水及其他法律義務支出，還有就是一般性補助款及地方計畫型補助款，這些立法院不能刪，行政院也不能刪，不能隨意變動的，以剛剛那個圖來看，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：各種補助都會規定它應該補助的項目，但是補助的比例是行政院跟地方可以透過財政結構的不同而加以討論出來的，行政院認為已經沒有多餘的財源時，而地方財源也有所增裕，那麼我們就會有調整的空間，所以這個是在補助的項目當中，我們做一些酌減補助而已。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們再看另外一張，文字敘述紅框的部分有沒有寫錯？它說公務員薪資及已簽約須履約等法律義務支出，加上2,501億一般性補助款，都是行政和立法部門不能變動的。這個部分應該是沒有彈性，是中央法定支出，這樣有寫錯嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但它是一個項目的指定，它並沒有定額或是定比例，所以額數、比例就是行政院依照國家財政的結構來調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你們來的公文裡面就叫我們不能動了，為什麼你們自己還在動？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起……"],["邱委員鎮軍：行政院怎麼可以去刪呢？我要問的是這個。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除636億……"],["邱委員鎮軍：行政院說刪就可以刪？"],["卓院長榮泰：對於我們可以自行調整的部分，經過很多次的計算之後，盤點出各項可能可以酌減的部分，選擇了三項。"],["邱委員鎮軍：立法院有刪除嗎？立法院沒有刪除地方一般性補助款。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是立法院要求行政院自行調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你們不會調啊？你們自己不會刪嗎？還是我們來幫你們刪？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經被刪1,439億了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：地方一般性補助款，立法院一塊錢都沒有動的原因有兩個，一個是遵循法的原則，另一個是我們都知道這些經費對地方來講是非常重要的，但行政院跟我們認為的中華民國法律不太一樣，都會自己發明解釋，變成民進黨政府的超譯創新版。3月21號的財劃法總統公告以後，主計總處4月23號發了這張公文給地方，說中央對地方的一般性補助款要扣，而且主計總處說當初院長給了三個方案，一個是刪債息，一個是刪地方補助款跟債息各半，另外一個是刪地方補助款，我們院長直接拍板就是刪地方補助款，這樣對吧？主計總處的說法對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：請主計長說明，當初……"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是擬很多方案去做一個模擬，看什麼樣的刪減對現在我們的行政體系運作方面最不會有困難，所以後來才決定刪減一般性補助。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！你選擇刪地方補助款，就是第一次違法，那同時也說明院長感受不到地方的需求嘛！所以院長，我認為你不能說我們在野黨不了解地方，也不了解地方政府的需求，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初在刪減中央政府總預算的時候，這種需求何在呢？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你現在要用追加預算來平息民怨，但是又拿不出合法的預算，用預算法第七十九條的理由來追加，就已經是第二次違法了，你現在用這個來追加，也是陷我們在野黨不義嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是依照預算法的內容規定來辦理追加預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當初是讓你們統刪，讓行政院好做事，對不對？我們也都知道這筆錢不能刪，可是你偏偏去刪了這一個，現在拿回來補助，如果我們給你通過，那就失去我們原本刪除預算的意義，如果不過，你就說是我們自己刪的，你這是挖坑給我們跳嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：往年有統刪，第一個數額沒這麼大，第二個統刪的結果都是經由兩院協調出來的，而不是像今年金額這麼龐大，而且不經過跟行政院的協調，就要求行政院自行刪除。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，你一直是說沒有辦法刪，我跟你講，你不會刪，我來幫你刪，我們內政部部長不是說中華人民共和國是一個國家嗎？那就是外交部了嘛！對不對？所以這件事情就是外交部的事，陸委會是不是就該裁撤了，對不對？這樣就有八十幾億嘛！外交部變斷交部，而且還不懂國際禮儀，預算這麼多也沒有發揮功能啊！所以先把中華民國的人民照顧好，砍一砍幾十億也有啊！文化部錢太多……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員是說把外交部刪掉嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：拿去補助罷免文宣，沒有善盡驗收的職責，計畫可以砍一砍，至少幾十億。每個部會都有負責資安的單位……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都不需要資安？"],["邱委員鎮軍：民眾也認為數發部是酬庸的單位，連民進黨委員都說數發部只有總機的功能……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們國家都不需要資安？"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以就直接把它廢掉。你不是說每個部會都有了嗎？這樣就有三百多億啦！光電、光儲、風電開發問題一堆，你們不先檢討，還要硬推，經濟部把這些標案跟開發先砍掉就好了嘛，就有上百億，我相信你會得到掌聲，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員這一席話如果列入國會紀錄，將來來檢討，一定有很多人會拿這個來當作一個非常可笑的內容，你要把國家的能源政策全部刪掉、外交部全部刪掉、資安全部刪掉……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你做得不好嘛！對不對？你可以檢討，沒有叫你全部刪掉，我沒有叫你裁撤外交部喔！你要搞清楚，我是叫你裁撤陸委會！"],["卓院長榮泰：把陸委會裁撤掉？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！你不是說這是國對國的關係？不是嗎？那為什麼不撤掉呢？","再來看一個影片，這個萊爾校長說，不是表決多數贏就可以，這有符合你現在的中心思想嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，我不曉得你這個話是從哪裡來的？"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，以你現在的認知，中華民國是民主國家嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天我們可以站在這裡對話，我們就是一個民主國家。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你也不認同萊爾校長講的話嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道你在講的是誰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我沒有說他是誰，就是萊爾校長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道這個人，你說的是誰？"],["邱委員鎮軍：你沒有看過，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有看過。"],["邱委員鎮軍：待會再放一次。這是一個影片，不然待會我加到你的LINE可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我加到你的LINE裡面可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：加到我的LINE裡面？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！好不好？","不要講這個啦，也不用說你認不認識，我只是問你認不認同他講的話。因為8月1號立法院決議要求行政院主計總處必須依照立法院當初刪減總預算的決議去調整部會的預算，同時立即足額撥付地方的一般性補助款。當天表決的結果有57人贊成，48人反對，1人棄權，你現在又不要依表決的結果執行，所以是民進黨說可以才可以是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是照表決結果執行，但是我今天送出來的追加預算就是在解決共同的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你那樣還是不承認你當初的錯，還是把這個東西丟回來給我們，把這個球丟來丟去，這樣有意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我只是不能錯上加錯，原始的錯，到了我們身上再加一個錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，不能動的就是不能動。我常常講，而且講了好幾次，如果你認為其他部會有一些窒礙難行的部分，你可以針對這件事情來追加嘛！你這樣整包丟回來，就有一點不尊重立法院了，憑良心講。"],["卓院長榮泰：這也是跟各部會商討過，由各部會提出需要追加的預算、程序跟內容，所以是依照這個來提出878億的追加預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道你會用光劍，但不知道你什麼時候還學了茅山法術，都會用這個來借屍還魂了。預算法有告訴你可以這樣做嗎？你說這個叫解決問題，那茅山道士的借屍還魂也可以叫延續生命嘛！對不對？今天這一大齣本來就不應該存在……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今天討論的是如何解決各部會的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不管你當初是要報復立法院沒聽你的，還是後來發現政治盤算打錯了，打了一個七傷拳……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後造成行政院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在又用追加預算來把這個荒唐的行為洗白。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後對行政院所造成的窒礙難行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，請依照8月1號立法院的決議好好執行，好不好？你們想挑戰人民的底線，試探我們的耐性還剩下多少……"],["卓院長榮泰：我提出的方式……"],["邱委員鎮軍：看看能不能創先例，要立法院吞下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我提出的方式是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後，對行政院造成的窒礙難行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們就是想，只要此例一開，以後每年都可以先刪減地方的補助款嘛！我們在這邊是一步都不能退啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望以後立法院審查預算不得再用這樣的方式違反憲法規定的精神，而且要行政院就吞下被刪減的636億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再說一次，我們立委堅持，地方政府應該有的一般性補助款一毛錢都不能少，而且你們沒有權力剋扣，因為這是依法編列的，所以在8月1號的表決……但是很遺憾，我看不到民進黨的委員，他們不願意跟地方站在一起。你應該很清楚啦，這不是中央的恩賜，而是依法本來就應該足額撥付給地方的錢，這點沒有討價還價的空間，希望院長應該要瞭解。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，今天提出的追加預算，就是希望行政、立法兩院共同為中央跟地方解決問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我們不要成為集權的國家，希望院長你們再思考一下。","另外我要再講財劃法，剛剛我看了一下王鴻薇委員的質詢，他跟我的題目差不多，我直接問你，115年的總預算編列的依據是不是新修正的財劃法？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年的總預算我們是依照總統所公告的財劃法，用裡面的內容來編列沒有錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛我聽到是以2,501億來做基底，是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是一般性補助款。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，一般性補助款。"],["卓院長榮泰：一般性補助款是在修法的時候下了這麼一條規定，這也是前所未有的，我覺得這個也是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是為了防止你們有小動作，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是法律已經生效了。我們試圖另外用其他的方式來做救濟，但是最後我們還是依照總統所公布、生效的財劃法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為財劃法的文字清清楚楚寫了，不得低於前一年的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個也是過去所沒有的一種箝制行政院編列預算權力的方式。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這一點你們照做，我是給你們肯定，我也覺得這是對的，我希望在這個前提之下，你們把這個預算好好的整理出來。主計長，我也可以跟您講，如果在這個方面，你們編列之後碰到什麼問題，我相信在野黨的立委都是大門打開來，可以坐下來好好談，如果你們碰到問題，你能說服大家這個問題確實存在，我們大家都很願意坐下來談。我希望行政院與立法院不是對立的單位，也不是兩個對立的機關，我們是為這個國家、為這個地方來好好做事情，這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：像這次我們的風災，如果我們有多的歲計賸餘，我們可以直接用歲計賸餘來編列特別預算，但現在我們必須舉債；再如我日前到苗栗去，關於地方道路的開通，我們現在還有能力來協助地方，未來這種能力顯然喪失了！"],["邱委員鎮軍：我剛剛聽王鴻薇委員質詢的時候，您有講到，就是我們的計畫型補助會做調整，對吧！是這樣嗎？其他還有沒有調整的部分？主計長，請問一下，還有沒有調整的部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們正在準備中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：準備中？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，在籌備中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：8月底要送出來，剩下幾天耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，8月29日送。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以先透露嗎？你們大概會調整什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們還在調整中。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還在盤整……"],["邱委員鎮軍：計畫型補助我認同，如果你其他的錢都是照我們一開始講的這樣編列的話，我也贊成計畫型補助可以做調整，這個本來就是可以的，因為地方有錢了，你們本來就可以去做這個調整，這個我是支持的。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員很清楚，統籌分配稅款會多四千億左右到地方去分配……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個分配到地方去，地方到底要做什麼事情……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我前兩天聽到，可能行政院就會把教育基金或者是一般性補助款直接拿掉，原本該給我們的不給我們了，全部加在財劃法的統籌分配稅款裡面，比如苗栗縣多137億，一般性補助款是50億，教育基金是40億，整個90億扣掉之後，我們多47億，以這個觀念，我不希望看到這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還在視每個縣市不同的狀況做最後的盤整當中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你原本的一般性補助款該給的就是要給，其他計畫型的中央政策的，我覺得這個比例分攤是可以談的，主計長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請主計總處把委員的意見列入參考。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我就麻煩主計長，我希望月底我們看到的是一個很好的結果，我也相信這樣有助於朝野的和諧、國家的進步，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員體諒中央政府目前編列預算遇到極大的困難，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝院長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請下午第一階段的最後一位質詢委員陳亭妃委員質詢，之後我們會休息10分鐘。","再次謝謝麥玉珍委員、林倩綺委員一直參與我們今天的專案報告。","現在請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","黃國昌","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱鎮軍","陳亭妃","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","張雅琳","賴惠員","王正旭","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2025-08-19"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00004","1147101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費\n等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}