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中華民國113年11月26日上午9時1分至11時48分下午2時30分至59分11月29日下午2時30分至60分23分12月3日上午9時至12時3分下午2時30分至50分至12分12月6日下午2時30分至76分地點 本院議場出席委員 陳委員 昭志等112人請教委員 柯委員 建民"},{"start":1902.373,"end":1916.261,"text":"內席人員．考試院院長．副院長及考試委員．被提名人等9人．主席院長韓國瑜．副院長江啟臣．討論事項第一案決議．提報院會．以記名投票表決宣讀完畢"},{"start":1917.782,"end":1941.807,"text":"報告全院委員會．針對第二會期第一次全院委員會一事入．並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處．作以下之決定．第二會期第一次全院委員會一事入確定報告全院委員會現在進行討論事項．總統咨．依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定．"},{"start":1945.509,"end":1967.634,"text":"提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官．並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長．咨請同意案。本案今本會期第9次會議決定於12月10日"},{"start":1968.502,"end":1996.05,"text":"星期二、11日、星期三、12日、星期四召開全院委員會並合併為一次會進行審查。源於本次會議提出審查。報告全院委員會今天上午審查司法院大法官並為院長被提名人張文貞之資格及是否事任相關事項。現在請被提名人張文貞女士說明時間為10分鐘。"},{"start":2007.594,"end":2011.604,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早。"},{"start":2012.506,"end":2041.589,"text":"我是大法官並兼司法院院長被提名人張文貞今天到立法院接受人事同意權審查倍感榮幸的同時更覺得責任重大獨立專業而有效能的司法是民主憲政國家的重要基礎不過我們的法院卻面臨非常嚴峻的挑戰我們的法官及基層司法人員長期過勞優秀法官人才流失社會對於法院的信任難以提升我的提名"},{"start":2042.109,"end":2061.547,"text":"如果能夠獲得立法院的信任同意身為司法院院長我最重要的任務就是建構法院的社會信任以及捍衛民主憲政的法治與人權在建構法院的社會信任上我有三個推動的重點分別是制度機制、專業效能、國際連結"},{"start":2064.349,"end":2079.384,"text":"首先是制度機制的建立．過去幾年的各項施改措施．在許院長的領導．以及所有人的共同努力之下．已有初步的成果．但是也有許多還未完成．或者需要檢討的地方．"},{"start":2080.225,"end":2098.512,"text":"我在上任之後將在司法院召開廣納省檢辨學及民間團體的司改成效評估及推動委員會作為司改後續討論與協作的平台對於已經建立的機制我們必須在實證的基礎上認真評估其成效"},{"start":2099.372,"end":2126.484,"text":"對於過去沒有能夠形成共識﹐或者沒有能夠有效推動的機制﹐例如金字塔型訴訟程序﹐法官多元禁用與評估淘汰﹐擴大律師代理﹐強化人民受律師協助的權利﹐律師費用保險﹐有效抑制訴訟資源濫用﹐法律人考選及專業訓練的改革等等﹐均需進一步擴大討論﹐有效溝通﹐以務實方法分階段進行。"},{"start":2127.543,"end":2148.392,"text":"既然是改革的成效評估．我們不能總是採取加法．也必須要納入減法的思維及做法．我們必須深刻體會．改革的目的是為了促進司法的效能．倘若改革只是一昧加重法官及基層司法人員的負擔．這樣的改革不會有令人滿意的成效．"},{"start":2149.432,"end":2167.487,"text":"為了強化司法院的決策量能：我將參考美國及歐盟的做法尤其是美國聯邦最高法院由首席大法官所領導的美國聯邦司法會議以及其關於法院行政、案件管理及數位司法的專門委員會的做法"},{"start":2168.513,"end":2184.589,"text":"這些專門委員會．會由專業、事任的法官．或退休法官．來擔任委員．加上外部專家．定期針對相關的司法政策．來進行通盤及深入的檢討．要提出明確且可操作的政策方案"},{"start":2185.581,"end":2210.9,"text":"因應法院的不同情況：這些專門委員會也要與各法院共同來協作以務實的方法解決問題透過由下而上的經驗整合要逐步改變過去司法院由上而下的政策推進模式而且要水平整合司法院不同聽處的立場透過司法政策的擬定與執行更加一致與協調"},{"start":2213.075,"end":2230.316,"text":"其次是專業效能提升．我將從司法資源擴大及有效分配．來優化案件流程與整合系統．建構專業量能及傳承辦案經驗等三個面向．來緩解法官及基層司法人員的過勞問題"},{"start":2232.031,"end":2253.324,"text":"目前我們的法官總人數是2195人相當於每10萬人口當中有9名法官與歐盟國家每10萬人口當中所擁有的法官人數的中位數是22名來相比有極大的落差我們的司法預算約佔政府一般預算的1%"},{"start":2254.85,"end":2273.386,"text":"人均司法的支出是新台幣1164元．僅有歐洲國家中位數2240元的一半．很明顯的．我們在司法資源的投入及分配上．與先進民主憲政國家相比有重大差距．"},{"start":2274.631,"end":2297.204,"text":"司法資源的擴大及有效分配．法官及相關司法人員的緣額．是我將來作為司法行政首長．所責無旁貸的任務．除了擴大司法資源及緣額．紓解送援之外．為了有效減輕法官及基層司法人員的負擔．我們必須優化案件審理的工作流程．"},{"start":2298.069,"end":2308.57,"text":"很多國家早就已經開始在推動的一化法院工程建立統一的電子案件管理系統從立案到結案的全流程數位化"},{"start":2309.557,"end":2331.159,"text":"在數位化的基礎上．簡化繁瑣的作業程序．建立完善的工具系統．讓實用的科技工具逐步融入司法作業流程．司法的體系必須引入新的思維．以科技提升效率．創造支持性的工作環境．讓法官能專注於案件實質的裁判工作"},{"start":2332.105,"end":2353.498,"text":"此外資深退休法官辦案經驗的傳承與分享也非常重要在我獲得提名之後的這一段時間我接收到許多優秀司法前輩的溫暖鼓勵以及精闢的經驗分享他們慷慨無私、知無不言、言無不盡他們告訴我司法是大家的"},{"start":2354.258,"end":2363.691,"text":"我們擁有眾多優秀的法官及司法專業人員這一群專業、自尊、自重、自律的法律人社群是維繫司法專業性的堅實基礎"},{"start":2366.84,"end":2388.269,"text":"第三是推動司法的國際連結臺灣是全球及亞洲民主國家中的指標擁有穩健的司法體制這是我們耕耘及深化國際連結時的重要養分我們法院所面臨的艱困挑戰同樣可見於其他國家與其他國家的法院相比"},{"start":2389.298,"end":2415.452,"text":"我們有相當充足的條件．建立長期且穩固的經驗交流與合作．有助於彼此專業量能的提升．法官跟不同國家的優秀同才．分享辦案實務．瞭解國際司法運作模式．學習全球司法實務的成功經驗．這些交流與合作．可以增強我們法官對於自身職業的價值與尊嚴．提升法官的專業認同"},{"start":2416.977,"end":2437.282,"text":"在捍衛民主憲政的法治與人權上．我們有相對成熟的機制．不管是憲法法庭或各級法院．都持續發揮重要的功能。憲法訴訟法實施之後．已經有學術研究指出．憲法法庭在案件流程．裁判時間及意見作成等方面．均有所進展。"},{"start":2438.562,"end":2462.031,"text":"我們也還需要面對許多全新的挑戰．新興科技對基本人權的風險．氣候變遷對人類生存的挑戰等等．面對高度與政治社會的分歧．憲法法庭必須要善用程序．妥適運用多元的裁判宣告模式．才能有效橫平．一方面是社會對於改變的期待．"},{"start":2462.651,"end":2471.272,"text":"另一方面則是社會要求司法自治．要法院高度尊重政治部門．這兩種對於司法截然不同的定位"},{"start":2472.225,"end":2494.214,"text":"憲法法庭必須以促進對話的法院自居：有效進行部門及社會的憲法對話當前法院所面對的艱困挑戰需要宏觀而多元的視角與能力才能找到對策及適當的工具一直以來除了學校我都以公益兼職的方式積極參與各項法律實務工作"},{"start":2497.298,"end":2508.6,"text":"各機關的法規委員、訴問委員、聽證、行事補償球場委員會未曾間斷。我也曾兼任司改委員、人權諮詢委員、司法官考訓委員。"},{"start":2509.816,"end":2538.553,"text":"雖然是學者但我積極參與並且長期累積實務經驗此外我的學術訓練深受務實取向及政策科學的美國法學與法院實務運作的影響結合比較法與脈絡分析深入制度運作與政策做法我相信透過我的領導及與所有同仁的共同努力我們的法院不僅能夠有效應對本土的挑戰"},{"start":2539.807,"end":2551.033,"text":"也將在全球民主憲政的進程中．發揮啟發性的作用．成為全球司法的改革典範．展現出法院2.0的現代司法理念"},{"start":2552.093,"end":2577.018,"text":"今天12月10號是世界人權日是1948年聯合國大會通過世界人權宣言的76週年我很榮幸在這樣一個對全球人權保障有深刻意義的日子接受立法院的審查我希望承繼我們對於普世人權的追求與維護民主憲政價值的精神"},{"start":2578.168,"end":2601.773,"text":"領導我們的法院走向更穩健、發展的未來。謝謝。謝謝張貝提名人之說明現在進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間20分鐘才疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員若不在場事為棄權首先請黃委員國昌詢問"},{"start":2632.032,"end":2657.574,"text":"謝謝主席,馬上有請被提名人我們請被提名人張女士搭訓被提名人早12月10號今天是國際人權日我們的憲法法庭、我們的司法院、我們的大法官"},{"start":2658.7,"end":2686.397,"text":"在整個憲法解釋的工作當中最重要的不外乎兩個部分一個是權力分立的原則一個是基本人權的保障我相信貝迪敏作為憲法的學者應該會有非常深的認識跟體認在世界人權日的今天我想要請教的第一個問題您認為現行的集會遊行法有沒有侵害基本人權有沒有違憲"},{"start":2689.262,"end":2716.585,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那那個因為我是司法職位的提名所以基於憲法、憲法解釋那只要是憲法解釋及憲法裁判那都有拘束全國各機關及人民的效力我將在這個基礎上回答委員的問題至於其他立法政策的問題我想那個就會是由立法院來做進一步的考量我現在在處理的並不是立法政策的問題"},{"start":2717.622,"end":2729.285,"text":"我現在在請教的是有關於基本人權保障的問題所以我具體的請教您啊您認為現行的集會遊行法有沒有侵害人民的基本權利有沒有違憲"},{"start":2731.581,"end":2732.001,"text":"除了這個部分以外呢?"},{"start":2754.266,"end":2777.517,"text":"除了這個部分以外呢?除了這個部分以外,事實上大法官在兩個這個集會遊行相關的解釋當中其實都具體的對這個集會遊行法的各項要件是不是能夠更加以明確化那做了憲法上的要求所以按照目前的集會遊行法你認為有沒有侵害基本人權?"},{"start":2779.454,"end":2800.366,"text":"報告委員還有一個也是這個除了剛剛兩位兩個大法官解釋之外那立法院在98年已經國內法化公民與政治權利國際公約那這個公約在多次的憲法解釋被大法官所引用那在這個公約裡頭提到和平集會的權利必須要加以確保"},{"start":2802.404,"end":2822.544,"text":"立法院通過公約施行法也要求大院必須檢討相關法令好幾次公約的國際審查都提到我們的集會遊行法確實有需要再進一步加以檢討的必要基於司法被提名的立場委員容許我就回答到這個部分謝謝"},{"start":2823.949,"end":2844.895,"text":"其實被提名的人我剛剛給你充分的時間希望你表達你在各項法律上面做的人權作為權力分立的選擇所以你也可以看得到對您相當的尊重我給你很長的時間回答一個非常簡單的問題感謝委員你記不記得你曾經主張過集會遊行法違憲"},{"start":2850.069,"end":2876.22,"text":"委員我在有一篇文章當中非常清楚的提到不是一篇文章你還記不記得你曾主張集會有刑法違憲必須要修改請委員提醒不過我剛剛已經講過好幾個憲法解釋第一個啊2008年的時候你曾經參與連署這個是在你剛剛所講的2009年ICCPR之前的事情"},{"start":2877.17,"end":2902.99,"text":"在那個之前你已經主張過現行的極有法是違憲的有侵害基本人權必須要加以修改我希望我希望這樣的憲法價值你能夠放在心裡面但令人遺憾的事情是什麼令人遺憾的事情是過去主張極有法違憲我們目前的民進黨政府"},{"start":2905.382,"end":2931.927,"text":"從2016年到現在整整8年的時間儘管在野黨提出了集會遊行法必須要修正的法案但是在立法院裡面不斷的受到了阻礙受到了杯葛導致這一個有違憲之餘的集會遊行法當初2008年這麼多的學者站出來連署站出來呼籲包括您在內"},{"start":2933.747,"end":2961.422,"text":"2008年到現在已經2024年了我們違憲的行為遊行法在立法院裡面竟然還沒有辦法得到進一步的修正被提名的人會不會覺得遺憾謝謝委員的提醒這確實是我所參與的連署我也相當記得當時在廣場靜坐的臺大學生甚至還有日本的學者跟著我一起到現場去探望我們的學生你還記得非常的好但我覺得"},{"start":2962.455,"end":2987.764,"text":"有很多人都已經忘了為什麼我說很多人都已經忘了當初參與這一場集會遊行非常多的人現在已經成為政治工作者甚至有當選總統的有當選立法委員即便如此到了2024年的今天我們還是在用統一部違憲的集會遊行法第二個問題"},{"start":2989.5,"end":2995.045,"text":"我們在9月23號的時候提出了問卷請問你為什麼不回覆感謝委員的問題當時確實民眾黨的黨團提出的問卷的相關條文在憲法法庭並沒有宣告停止試用那本來按照這個條文我們確實應該是要回覆民眾黨黨團的問卷為什麼沒有回覆"},{"start":3015.143,"end":3038.644,"text":"但是我們當時在討論的時候那其實考慮到你也知道憲法法庭那在做程序的裁定跟實體的決定的時候他相關可能會宣告違憲的條文可能不一樣他並不受前面的這個沒有錯啊我們先建立一個基本原則啊法律在被憲法法庭宣告違憲以前是不是一個有效的法律"},{"start":3039.858,"end":3040.319,"text":"是嗎?"},{"start":3040.319,"end":3042.522,"text":"是。 是不是需要遵守?"},{"start":3042.522,"end":3046.207,"text":"是應該要遵守。你為什麼沒有遵守?"},{"start":3046.207,"end":3048.67,"text":"是因為你們有特權嗎?"},{"start":3048.67,"end":3055.86,"text":"並沒有,我們不應該。如果你們沒有特權,法律沒有被宣告違憲以前應該遵守,請問你們為什麼不回覆?"},{"start":3057.55,"end":3077.692,"text":"再次跟委員說明因為當時憲法法庭這個暫時停止適用的是裁定憲法法庭的實體的裁判還沒有做成所以任何的人民向憲法法庭申請釋憲在憲法法庭的裁判沒有做出來以前可以不遵守嗎?"},{"start":3079.451,"end":3105.958,"text":"委員也跟您報告所以我們當時在回覆這個大院的這個新聞稿當中有特別提到幾個關節點那一個除了是程序的條文之外還有就是立法院的這個議程那所以我們我們先停一下來看一下我們請你們回覆問卷立法院職權刑事法依照的159條之一嘛第二項我們一樣一樣把事情理清楚第一個"},{"start":3106.96,"end":3130.001,"text":"法律在沒有被宣告違憲以前是合法有效的法律任何的公民都有遵守的義務這個是我們剛剛已經建立的前提了嘛但是在這個條文裡面有規範說要等到立法院確定了審查日程以後你們才有回覆的義務嗎沒有如果沒有的話你們為什麼竟然"},{"start":3131.345,"end":3152.56,"text":"我們請你們依法回覆的問卷．可以不交．說要等到確定議程了以後．你們才願意回覆．增加法律所沒有的要件．是只有所有的大法官被提名人．有這樣超越法律的權利．還是一般的人民也有當然沒有這是一個基本態度的問題啦今天"},{"start":3153.615,"end":3177.224,"text":"如果當一群法律人被提名為大法官在還沒當上大法官之前他們就自認為他們在法律之上沒有人在法律之上他們可以增加法律所沒有的要件自我的選擇他要不要回什麼時候要回這個是一個大法官的被提名人應該有的基本態度嗎"},{"start":3178.668,"end":3187.952,"text":"委員因為在這個黨團的問卷裡頭有關於拒絕及罰環的問題那拒絕跟罰環確實後來你第一次總共收到幾個問題我們第一次的問卷嗎在這個問卷的後面有提到我們對於拒絕跟罰環的相關的討論我請問你總共收到幾個問題那我們收到12個問題總共收到12個問題嘛請問你回答了幾個問題"},{"start":3208.424,"end":3232.083,"text":"那因為在那個拒絕跟罰還的那個部分我們必須要尊重那你就留空白嘛前面的問題跟後面你所講的有關係嗎12個問題有一個問題你認為不適合回答那你不適合回答你就留空白嘛因為構成你不用回答前面11個問題的法律事由嗎委員事上有的那因為民眾黨的黨團的問卷你說你有回答問題"},{"start":3234.765,"end":3256.863,"text":"提到那個相關的問題我剛剛是說有相關的問題第二次發給你們的問卷什麼時候交回來的我們10天內就依法定的期限什麼時候交回來的因為我們被提名你們是昨天交回來的嘛直接回答問題面對問題有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":3259.685,"end":3286.684,"text":"沒有沒有困難昨天10日內的最後期限不好意思喔這樣子的審查程序到要行使同意權的前一天才把問卷交回來你應該對美國憲法跟聯邦最高法院非常熟悉嘛是他們的程序是這樣進行的嗎報告委員你覺得啦在國會審查的前一天"},{"start":3287.847,"end":3313.769,"text":"我們早就發出去的問卷才寄回來討厭大家的閱讀能力跟閱讀時間沒有關係我全部看完了所以我進一步請教我們請教你針對有關於死刑存廢這是在基本人權的保障上在我國憲法的解釋上引發全國人民高度關注的議題"},{"start":3315.337,"end":3334.09,"text":"結果您所回來的答案是因為你被提名了所以你不予表示意見這個是你可以不予表示意見的項目嗎?全體的國民沒有權利知道你在這個重大的基本人權保障的議題上面的想法嗎?"},{"start":3335.868,"end":3362.409,"text":"委員 全體人民跟大院都有權利知道我帶這個議題的想法所以你的想法是什麼就是我們應該要尊重憲法法庭的裁判沒有錯 除了這個以外呢除了這個以外我們不能表示任何的意見你不能表示任何意見嘛憲法法庭已經明確的宣告此行為違憲不好意思喔我問 然後我請你回答如果你覺得我的問題不合理那你可以直接講"},{"start":3363.308,"end":3387.443,"text":"所以我覺得你的提問不合理我拒絕回答這我也尊重你你放心我不會過去用暴力的手段阻礙你回答任何問題請你放心在這裡此時此刻的程序您真的不用擔心會有人用暴力的手段不讓這個會議進行也不會有人用暴力的手段不讓你回答任何問題如果人民有權利知道"},{"start":3388.163,"end":3412.49,"text":"但是你所交回來的問卷是你不予表示意見我具體的問在所有的被提名人當中您知道有幾個人沒有回答這個問題嗎委員我們每一個人都是獨立行使職員是沒有錯所以我請教你有幾個人沒有回答這個問題你知道嗎我不應該知道這個問題的答案我可以跟你講只有你一個人"},{"start":3413.735,"end":3440.658,"text":"只有你一個人其他的被提名的人寫多寫少是一回事但最起碼他們展現了什麼他們展現了勇氣他們展現了面對問題的勇氣此行的存廢在台灣的社會有高度的爭議現在的公民社會對於所謂的113年憲判之八號判決有非常強烈的不滿跟批評"},{"start":3442.15,"end":3468.2,"text":"所有的被提名人都知道但讓我感動的是什麼讓我感動的是有被提名人明明知道這件事情明明知道他所持的見解未必在目前台灣的公民社會是受多數人所支持的見解他還是勇敢的面對了這個問題針對我們的每一個提問具體的回答我未必贊成"},{"start":3469.653,"end":3497.948,"text":"那些被提名人他們在這些問題上面所抱持的憲法立場跟憲法解釋但是我可以跟您說明的是什麼我佩服人家的勇氣不迴避困難的問題不迴避重要的人權保障的議題也不迴避當人權保障的議題跟社會上面多數主流的民意產生高度衝突的時候有勇氣面對這樣的問題我的問題是什麼"},{"start":3499.676,"end":3518.375,"text":"我們要選出來的大法官不就是應該要有這樣子的道德勇氣有勇氣面對困難的人權議題有勇氣向社會清楚的表達我心裡面到底是怎麼想的這不是我們在選擇大法官應該有的標準嗎"},{"start":3519.38,"end":3544.683,"text":"您今天採取這樣子迴避問題的態度我必須要跟被提名人說讓我非常非常的失望非常非常的失望您如果認為一旦被提名這些問題都不適合回答的話那顯然其他回答這些問題的被提名人他們都做了不適當的事情這一步具體的請教"},{"start":3545.885,"end":3566.135,"text":"在113年憲判制第8號判決他說要最嚴重的犯罪類型這個是ICCPR第6條來的我們大家都很熟悉但除了這個以外他還加了要個案犯罪情節最嚴重另外一個他說必須要各審級"},{"start":3567.486,"end":3584.62,"text":"不是只有第一審喔美國各州有死刑的制度的各州絕大多數都是陪審團第一審的一致決被提名的人你知不知道有哪一個國家要求各個審計都必須要求一致決的"},{"start":3586.704,"end":3609.257,"text":"委員在這件事情上那個有哪一個國家是採行這樣的立法例因為目前廢除死刑的國家已經非常多在普通法刑國家有哪一個國家是採行這樣的立法例這是一個非常簡單的問題啊您被提名為司法院院長應該有足夠的能力回答這個簡單的問題啊有哪一個國家採行這樣的立法例"},{"start":3612.159,"end":3632.335,"text":"目前沒有國家採行這樣的立法沒有採行這樣的立法例嘛對於我國的憲法法庭透過憲法的解釋透過憲法的解釋他們事實上在做什麼事情他們已經在扮演立法者的角色透過憲法法庭在扮演立法者的角色我接下來問題也很具體您認為"},{"start":3635.39,"end":3648.036,"text":"在實行判決的時候要不要求各個省級要一致決的這件事情這應該是立法者的政策決定還是憲法法庭法官的決定"},{"start":3649.127,"end":3676.947,"text":"委員就像我剛剛在這個報告致詞的時候提到那到底是要維護憲法還是尊重多數是一個對憲法法庭很重大的挑戰那容我先很快的說因為大法官這一次的憲法判決我把問題把它理得更清楚一點多數人的意見憲法法庭維護人權這個是一個問題的模組但我在問的不是這個問題的模組"},{"start":3678.516,"end":3699.57,"text":"我在問的是什麼模組你應該非常的清楚司法權在當代憲政民主的國家當中他什麼時候應該積極什麼時候應該消極什麼時候應該邁入立法者他們立法形成的空間這個是在憲法的解釋上憲法的政策上"},{"start":3700.526,"end":3714.284,"text":"容我這樣講啊ABC的問題每一個人有每一個人不同的看法我相信本院的委員還有整個台灣的公民社會有權利知道每一位被提名的人對司法權"},{"start":3715.626,"end":3741.977,"text":"在特定的脈絡下面．他應該要扮演什麼樣的角色．有權利知道．所以我才請教你這個問題．我的問題非常的具體．我的問題非常的具體．在這個問題脈絡的時候．是應該大法官．扮演的什麼．扮演的立法者的角色．具姓名的告訴你．每一個審計都要一致決．還是這件事情應該交由立法者來加以決斷．"},{"start":3743.288,"end":3769.729,"text":"委員我剛在致詞的時候就已經提到了事實上就這件事情我在許多的法學文章都有表示我的立場我認為我們應該要採取程序跟制度取向的對話法院那這也是目前很多國家所採取的換句話說制定相關的程序、制度跟要求然後請這個立法院在適當的時間內加以修法立法這個是目前在全球憲政底下對話式的法院最有效的方式"},{"start":3771.761,"end":3800.43,"text":"此期各審期一定要一致決請問立法院還剩下什麼立法行程的空間只有一個選擇啊就是要求一定要一致決否則違憲剛剛您所講的要對話、要溝通我們什麼時候看到了我們的憲法法庭在這裡留有任何對話、討論的空間沒有啊當我決定這是憲法價值的時候"},{"start":3801.36,"end":3820.288,"text":"立法者只有一件事情只有一件事情依照憲法法庭這幾位大法官他們自己所形成的價值來修改法律除了一字訣以外有其他修法的空間嗎有其他修法的空間嗎來請教被提名人"},{"start":3821.994,"end":3847.88,"text":"在這個問題上大法官因為他當時繫針的法律是法院組織法而不是國民法官法所以大法官對不起喔我沒有提到國民法官法的部分現在國民法官的制度只有在第一審試用嘛問題的焦點是什麼我們大法官創設了獨步全球的制度啊連上幾審都要求一致決啊這是一個大法官應該做的事嗎這會攸關什麼接下來"},{"start":3870.062,"end":3875.025,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員也謝謝被提名人下一位請吳斯亞委員詢問謝主席,有請張院長被提名人請張被提名人發詢"},{"start":3903.611,"end":3918.241,"text":"老師,您好。我觀察了您剛剛的備詢。我覺得不備不抗,非常好。我們持理而行。公威若是有道理,我們就不用大聲,我們理性來對話。"},{"start":3920.063,"end":3937.13,"text":"我今天準備對您的這個質詢裡頭我想到了迪根斯雙城計所說的這是個最壞的時代但這也是一個最好的時代這是一個最黑暗的時代但同時它也是一個最光明的時代"},{"start":3938.252,"end":3959.321,"text":"這是一個充滿愚蠢的時代但同時它也是一個讓我們能夠彰顯智慧的時代所以面對司法的諸多新挑戰我想危機就是轉機您接受總統的提名我想您也是這樣的正向的一個無比強大的勇氣下一頁"},{"start":3960.818,"end":3989.567,"text":"我今天要跟您對話我翻出了我很喜歡看的一個法律專業的自媒體法操他們常常會針對一些司法的金句來做分享所以我跟您分享的第一個金句呢是1993年克林頓總統提名的Ruth Kingsborough我想您應當也認識也熟知她她是美國首位的猶太籍的大法官是美國第二位女性大法官"},{"start":3990.447,"end":3999.223,"text":"他說的這句話﹖若人民沒有對自由的渴望﹖不論一部憲法有多好﹖都沒有意義﹖"},{"start":4000.788,"end":4025.102,"text":"所以這個liberty跟freedom的重要自由的權利是追求而來的同樣的憲法就是來捍衛守護自由的權利而所有的人民都有這樣的責任跟義務來遵守憲法下一頁所以今天您剛剛在報告的時候也提到和其榮幸"},{"start":4026.463,"end":4047.043,"text":"在國際人權日的76週年而且在臺灣這個美麗的島嶼上美麗島事件這個讓我們到至今都還非常的緬懷我們反對威權45週年的美麗島事件的今天剛好是您在這裡站上"},{"start":4048.305,"end":4060.357,"text":"審查的第一天所以我也想最近韓國的戒嚴議題也給台灣很大很大的反省但是民主不走回頭路"},{"start":4061.294,"end":4079.873,"text":"我們不可能有回到或恢復戒嚴的那一天所以您是作為司法院未來渴望領導司法院的您能不能也用一句金句一句話來宣示您未來領導的司法院對於自由人權的保障"},{"start":4082.024,"end":4106.336,"text":"謝謝委員就像我剛剛在一開始講的這個捍衛民主、人權、法治是我領導司法院以及所有的法官及基層司法人員最重要的一個任務那這個使命是我們花了非常多的時間才建立起來那我們只會迎向未來跟全球司法共同合作那來打造這個非常堅實的基礎你講得非常好"},{"start":4107.031,"end":4129.986,"text":"我們也要跟全球合作一起來捍衛所有人類的自由人權非常好那我要跟您分享另外一個金句這個是拜登總統2022年提名的這個Jackson我想大家更熟知他了他是美國首位非裔的女性大法官"},{"start":4131.227,"end":4156.353,"text":"他的這句名言是我站在幾代美國人的肩膀上他們從未有過這樣的機會美國是個民族的大熔爐但是他同時也有非常嚴重的種族歧視所以Jackson能夠以一個非裔的女性的擔任到大法官的職位這彰顯的意義非常的重要下一頁"},{"start":4157.333,"end":4162.979,"text":"剛好最近有一部日劇我不曉得你有沒有看啊女法官大人你在點頭你有看嗎"},{"start":4164.079,"end":4192.056,"text":"有機會稍微看一下是他講的是日本最早的一位女律師同時也是日本首位女法官我覺得台灣如果能夠讓張院長順利的通過立法院的審查成為台灣第一位女性司法院長更是亞洲的第一位我認為非常的有意義下一頁所以我要就教於您女性法官的人數跟占比逐年提升"},{"start":4193.477,"end":4207.949,"text":"到2023年女法官的人數在臺灣達到52.3%右邊的表格告訴我們是各級法院平均數也是5乘3但是最高行政法院最高66.7%"},{"start":4210.371,"end":4231.146,"text":"相較於其他各級法院的女性的法官的補強我想這個您未來要去強化就如同徐宗麗前院長說的一個制度設計跟資源分配往往支撐了權力對等或不對等我對您懷抱非常高的期待下一頁"},{"start":4231.906,"end":4259.215,"text":"如果台灣的立法院能夠完成大法官的人事同意權我們的憲法法庭更可能達到男性女性女性7位男性8位讓我們司法領域的性別主流化更進一步所以我要請您也以一句話來宣示您擔任未來渴望領導的司法院對於性別的平等性別主流化來"},{"start":4267.521,"end":4281.751,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個是非常重要的就是全球的法院在過去的這幾年當中其實整個性別平等的趨勢以及多元的代表跟組成那也已經成為主流所以我們當然很期待"},{"start":4282.25,"end":4286.254,"text":"希望台灣真的能夠誕生亞洲第一位女性的司法院院長"},{"start":4306.454,"end":4325.953,"text":"下面的一句金句呢我要跟您告解一下今天在準備跟您的這個對話我其實陷入了相當的煎熬因為我想部分的議題會涉及政治的觀點每一個人都會有政治的觀點台灣就是一個民主、自由、多元、包容的國家"},{"start":4327.011,"end":4339.152,"text":"但是我也擔心我對您提出了一些對於部分的法案的立場可能會反而成為您被在野立委跟您意見不同的人攻擊的理由"},{"start":4340.131,"end":4368.048,"text":"但是呢我分享的這一句這個卡根歐巴馬總統提名的他是美國第4位女性大法官也是歐巴馬政府的司法院院長更是哈佛法學院第一位女性的院長他的這句話我覺得太重要了My politics would be, must be, have to be, completely separate from my judgment."},{"start":4368.82,"end":4390.318,"text":"也就是說我即便有我的政治觀點但是我同樣也有足夠的專業、理性、判斷力來行使我的大法官的職務所以我個人的政治立場跟我的專業法律的職務的行使並不衝突您應當非常認同"},{"start":4392.607,"end":4407.68,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我非常認同事實上作為一個學者我在許許多多的議題上都有非常清楚完整的意見國內也是國外也是正是因為如此作為司法院院長的大法官被提名人"},{"start":4408.18,"end":4423.565,"text":"我有責任義務捍衛我們司法的判決那也正是因為這樣子在我給各黨團的回覆意見上事實上就憲法、人權公約我都寫得非常的清楚但是當我要對憲法法庭的判決做我的立場的時候"},{"start":4424.485,"end":4426.607,"text":"沒錯,您講得非常好夏業這就是我要跟您分享的我立法委員也是一樣"},{"start":4449.827,"end":4474.903,"text":"無分司法立法都要克尊憲法也無分司法立法我們念茲在茲的就是人權就是自由就是民主所以說剛剛前一位委員對於您過去的在哪一篇文章裡頭或是在哪個場合曾經說過哪一句話來挑戰您今天擔任這個職務是格與否我認為他劃錯重點"},{"start":4477.085,"end":4505.91,"text":"所以剛剛這個卡根大法官的這句話我應該好好分享給黃國昌委員好但是呢我們要進入深水區了未來司法院的新挑戰有什麼呢來預算案人事案憲法訴訟法司法改革的未竟之業plus one還有一件事是什麼呢就是可能一個這是我的形容詞"},{"start":4506.997,"end":4523.511,"text":"一個違憲上癮的立法院所以讓我們要疲於違憲的司法院司司有兩種要效大不同違憲也有兩種精神價值大不同一個是摧毀憲法一個是維護憲法"},{"start":4526.673,"end":4541.942,"text":"不管是立法委員或是未來的司法院院長不管是吳思瑤或是張文貞我們都要維護憲法下一頁所以說我一個一個方面跟您論述第一個您的挑戰是預算案"},{"start":4542.962,"end":4565.86,"text":"剛剛您的報告裡頭提出臺灣的司法預算只佔國民政府總預算大概只有1%而且人均的司法支出只有1164萬幾乎是歐洲進步國家的中位數還不到二分之一而已所以我們的司法預算已經這麼少了我們更要全力來守護我更要說司法預算是獨立的"},{"start":4566.48,"end":4581.514,"text":"所以我整理出這三年來立法院審查司法預算的結果比較其實過去幾年的立法院是非常尊重司法預算的獨立凍結數只有1296萬佔0.33減劣數只減了70.6萬比例是0.018%"},{"start":4592.524,"end":4606.244,"text":"總體因為各部會都有一個統刪因為統刪的部分所以讓整個預算刪減達到一億兩千萬左右3.06%但是這都告訴我們立法委員下一頁"},{"start":4607.365,"end":4635.781,"text":"對於司法預算的獨立：他包括有憲法增修條文第5條的規範對不對司法院所提的司法概算行政院是不得刪減的喔行政院都要尊重司法院編列的預算行政院不得刪減只能夠加注意見然後送立院審議同樣的預算法93條也做了這個對於司法預算獨立編列的再次的聲明"},{"start":4636.661,"end":4655.776,"text":"表明當然還有大法官誓字613號就是所有的憲法機關例如立法院在行使權力的制衡的時候也有其界限不能任意的去侵犯其他憲法機關權力核心的領域比如說不能夠透過"},{"start":4657.277,"end":4676.81,"text":"預算的過當的強悍或是人事案的過度去左右而破壞了責任政治所以我要請求您捍衛司法預算我們有憲法的保護傘您瞭解您會用這樣的立場來捍衛"},{"start":4678.719,"end":4701.477,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員我想這是我責無旁貸的任務事實上臺灣司法效能的不彰會影響到我們整體的經濟跟未來的發展我們許多產業的這個相關的司法徵送不能夠加速有效的進行那這會使得很多的產業遇到相關的司法的問題的時候採取其他的方式那甚至有很多影響我國產業的法律問題必須要移到其他國家去那這個是我們所不樂見的"},{"start":4706.841,"end":4725.355,"text":"這也是先前為什麼設立了制裁跟商業法院很重要的原因所以我當然一旦有這個機會來守護我們的司法預算您的下一個挑戰是人事同意權我這裡要加速了我想把大法官被提名人都打成綠油油或是側翼我認為這是"},{"start":4727.435,"end":4731.077,"text":"臺灣的立法院針對司法院的人事同意權的行使"},{"start":4757.935,"end":4779.474,"text":"開始進入審查的程序12月24號要投票但是畢竟已經延宕了71天所以這是立法院的責任我們會全力來加緊來進行審查但是這是司法院非常嚴峻的挑戰好下一頁當然第三個挑戰就是限訴法"},{"start":4781.274,"end":4802.082,"text":"因為有人喜歡違憲：然後怕失憲：然後就毀憲這是我的turn不是您我希望在黨委員不要為難您所以二修憲法訴訟法的提案：被送上了立法院審議的tie table曲解變更了現有總額的定義：也提高了憲法法庭平益的門檻從1⅔到2⅓所以民團跟律師都站上街頭"},{"start":4809.258,"end":4830.997,"text":"今天是美麗島事件45週年上一次有這麼多律師捍衛挺身而出就是美麗島事件現在2024這麼多的律師專業界包括下一頁黃鴻霞大法官也站出來所以在制度面、實體面、價值面跟效益面民進黨團都反對惡修憲法訴訟法"},{"start":4833.179,"end":4848.597,"text":"來下一頁98%憲法法庭受理的是人民的申請案下一頁在野黨一直說的極端案例會有3位思維大法官就來進行憲法法庭憲法的解釋"},{"start":4849.818,"end":4871.209,"text":"並不存在這種案例以過去111年新制憲法法庭到現在宣判的48案裡頭98%參與審理的大法官是大於10位的因為有迴避的制度所以並沒有這個極端案例除了什麼呢下一頁就是人事同意權遲遲沒有行使"},{"start":4872.649,"end":4891.388,"text":"進行杯葛所以美國最高法院的大法官只有9位但是他同樣是三分之二參與評議、二分之一同意美國沒有人說這危及憲法、危及憲政德國聯邦憲法大法官16位但是他分兩庭"},{"start":4892.509,"end":4920.477,"text":"所以一庭只有8位法官．8位法官裡頭的三分之二評議．二分之一同意．也沒有人收賄為及憲政．所以非常清楚憲法訴訟法的修法理由．完全並不存在謝明陽代理院長也表達了他的意見．他也認為要有社會共識那您對於憲訴法的修法．我認為您也要有立場簡單幾句話"},{"start":4922.708,"end":4923.548,"text":"好,謝謝您的答案民進黨團會捍衛而且"},{"start":4948.996,"end":4975.784,"text":"來阻卻這樣一個違憲的修法您的下一個挑戰是司法改革的未盡之功就是司法人員的減壓但我剛剛也聽到您的報告裡頭說了我們循序來落實訴訟制度訴訟程序的金字塔的制度解決司法過勞我相信您會如您的報告所說的努力來做下頁吳斯堯也提出了我們改革的"},{"start":4976.904,"end":5004.993,"text":"針對司法人員檢押的五大主張我就不贅述但是我會全力來支持合理員額的增加現在只有2195位10萬人當中只有9位您剛也提到比起歐盟真的是連二分之一都不到我會全力支持但是司法院要送出的法案就是行政院的這個基準的這個法律你們您未來領導司法院要加緊送出"},{"start":5005.213,"end":5008.575,"text":"會的,就像我剛剛的報告我是一個實證取向的這個院長那所以我會針對很多具體的做法那我也已經有具體的計畫好,那期待您未來的表現,來下一頁"},{"start":5024.215,"end":5041.857,"text":"最後一個嚴峻的挑戰就是一個毀憲亂政不斷在透過修法的立法院擴權、搶錢、沒收民權、摧毀憲法下一頁這是我整理出來的在野黨修法屢踩違憲的紅線"},{"start":5044.62,"end":5059.538,"text":"從違憲的法案就剛剛限訴法也包括選罷法、沒收人民權利這也違反憲法的規定喔包括立法院提出很多的法把手伸到監察院裡面去去動了這個人事提名權是總統的權限"},{"start":5061.681,"end":5090.337,"text":"所以違憲的法案非常多錢坑法案更多完全違反了權力分立的原則預算權就是行政權所以違憲的法案亂政的法案親中的法案跟錢坑的法案這些都是立法院的現在進行式我要問公投法最後一頁因為時間要到了在野黨提出的公投法要用公投來取代否決憲法的解釋最後的時間您的意見呢"},{"start":5091.277,"end":5105.789,"text":"就如同我剛剛所報告的這個根據我們的憲法、憲法解釋、憲法訴訟法那憲法解釋跟裁判有拘束全國人民跟各機關的效力那這個事實上從民國70多年就開始好"},{"start":5131.102,"end":5137.148,"text":"好,謝謝吳委員、謝謝貝廷銘人下一位我們請陳玉珍委員詢問"},{"start":5171.024,"end":5176.005,"text":"主席我們請這個被提名人齁,院長請張被提名人答詢提名人齁,早啊委員長我不會來這邊這個跟你尊尊教誨齁跟你講這個立法院黨派之間有什麼不同的意見我先請教您看到那一桌那個藝術品嘛看起來像什麼"},{"start":5201.554,"end":5227.464,"text":"我倒是不太知道他看起來像什麼,不過他好像拿著一個秤嗎?對,那個是天平。天平的象徵你知道嗎?公平。對,公平嘛。所以他是這個,他是印尼回來,我從印尼3600公里抬回來,看到這個時候想到我們的大法官。因為你知道他的象徵意義嗎?你感覺他的象徵意義是什麼?他的面目是不是真龍?真靈?"},{"start":5229.69,"end":5257.572,"text":"面目是有點猙獰是你覺得他是神還是鬼的這個我難以判斷難以判斷喔這個是印尼的一個藝術品他代表是這一位也是神他是神他代表這一位神明他聚集了正義的力量然後抵抗司法不正義的對抗他是正義的化身看到了嗎他拿一個天秤他是正義的化身"},{"start":5258.579,"end":5258.879,"text":"委員會主持正義"},{"start":5279.505,"end":5295.623,"text":"如果主持爭議就成了神．人們心目中的神．如果你不主持爭議就會變成鬼．被燒掉．被送到陰間裡頭去．這在印尼裡頭是這樣子的所以在這裡是要特別的期許我們的遊戲林市．未來我們的準司法院院長．特別的期許這個"},{"start":5297.745,"end":5317.743,"text":"公平正義永遠要在你的心中那剛剛我針對這個我聽到這個吳世耀委員在說就是說我們女性不容易您當然也是研究性平觀念不容易那如果今天有一位女性女性的這個大法官可以擔任我們的司法院院長我們也是身為女性我也是覺得欲有榮焉但是我們女性"},{"start":5318.524,"end":5344.053,"text":"如果要擔任任何的職務不管是立委或是這樣大法官或甚至當委員之首的時候我們應該也不是只是憑著我們的這個說我們身為女性的這種保護傘吧你這樣不贊同啊當然完全認同我相信是本事業的專業不是因為我們是女性我們就被提名不是因為我們是女性我們就被提名為大法官被提名為院長吧對吧當然不是對嘛也是要因為我們自己有一定的這個成就嘛一定的這個威望嘛這個你認同吧"},{"start":5344.81,"end":5364.868,"text":"完全認同 我也希望是我的憲法專業是 好 那我來看看你的憲法專業齁這個 您要被評為這個司法院院長齁當然要有各種的威望啦齁 領導啦 各方面啦 學術專業啦齁你的人權保障啦齁然後 我想請問你齁您被此 我看到您的自傳你說您被提名的資格跟條件是什麼"},{"start":5366.069,"end":5384.579,"text":"是不是司法院組織法第4條第1項第5款的承認國際法庭法官沒有嗎或在學術機構從事公法學或比較法學這個有吧有當然有有在學術機構從事公法學資研究這個沒問題喔而有權威著作者是這個嗎是用這一行為是用這一款嗎"},{"start":5385.299,"end":5407.132,"text":"是我想我是用這一款被提名的那我想請教一下那我不好意思我比較孤陋寡聞我在這之前從來也沒聽過我們張文貞大法官準大法官的這個相關的這個也沒有拜過您的相關著作我記得我在念書的時候您只有大我世界台大的學姐我在念書的時候至少我會在念法研所"},{"start":5407.492,"end":5432.423,"text":"我至少讀過我們看我們以前的這些相關的這個院長翁岳昇、許忠麗翁岳昇我們院長他有行政法我至少買過他的行政法上下設我都拜讀過許忠麗是我大學的時候的教授他至少也在相當多的這個你看論述裡頭憲法與法治國家行政法與國家權力他有相關的這個論述我至少覺得他們是著作等生"},{"start":5433.964,"end":5461.004,"text":"這個都是我們的前輩我們都很尊重所以被提名為院長我覺得是當之無愧啦那就努力的在想說您有什麼樣的著作本身有什麼權威著作今天可以來擔任我們的這個司法院院長呢我仔細的看了你提供的這些資料就是有關你的著作你有提供給我們參考嗎除了你的學位論文就不談了這每個人都有的以外您的這個專書裡頭我看一下我們先看中文部分"},{"start":5461.664,"end":5488.844,"text":"有哪一本是你自己寫的嗎?這個你提供的,總共18頁喔全部都是編註編註編註編註都是跟什麼林子儀、林子儀是我的老師葉俊榮什麼葉俊榮、關曉薇葉俊榮合編的,這是編註嘛這不是寫的嗎?好專書的篇章裡頭這都頁數喔這個洋洋灑灑有22筆喔全部也都是一篇一篇的論文嗎?沒錯吧?"},{"start":5490.425,"end":5498.59,"text":"我沒有誣衊你這是你寫的你提供的資料你的外文著作裡頭看起來都是跟人家合編的1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19外文著作裡頭32樣"},{"start":5508.223,"end":5509.163,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5527.542,"end":5540.747,"text":"呃41筆全部都是第幾頁到第幾頁外文裡頭也全部都是第幾頁到第幾頁我可以請教您啊這個您著作本身如果您要稱為是有權威的著作可以提供一本讓我去拜讀嗎哪一本是你的權威著作"},{"start":5541.787,"end":5557.072,"text":"報告委員我在2010年在2015年2022年2019年在牛津大學的這個國際憲法比較期刊裡頭那都有這個得獎的著作當然不是一整本喔有一篇文章寫得不錯嘛齁"},{"start":5559.193,"end":5572.141,"text":"我們這個新一代的學者那我過去長期耕耘於國際憲法的這個相關的國際出版那所以可能委員在國內的專書當中因為我也看了國際的尤其我還特別看了一篇國際的裡頭我還特別看了一篇國際的裡頭我還懷疑你這篇根本就是第19篇就是這個亞洲"},{"start":5582.25,"end":5588.194,"text":"法律、法學評論裡頭的我還懷疑這篇根本就是中文啊這個前面這篇行政審查這篇的這個翻譯而已啊"},{"start":5591.354,"end":5613.145,"text":"來沒關係你說你出了很多在文章論文在這個很多法學著名的法學期刊不好意思我也投過稿我先請問這樣叫著作等身喔這樣叫權威著作我們國內有這麼多優秀的法律學者我不是說你不夠好你非常優秀但是今天對我來講要擔任一個司法院的院長喔不只是大法官啦"},{"start":5614.225,"end":5629.411,"text":"權威著作翁岳昇我想鼎鼎大名許中立大家也都是聽過也很多法律的學生也都拜託過我後來勉強找了一本可能是你的權威著作的這一本書"},{"start":5630.831,"end":5654.78,"text":"消除對婦女一切形式、歧視、公約勉強找到一本你的權威著作我覺得這本看起來是比較像權威著作因為不過你也是編而已嘛好像還不是主編啦旁邊有15位學者一起出的文章因為關小薇還出了更多篇那這位應該可以提名為副院長吧"},{"start":5655.711,"end":5659.766,"text":"然後其他的我們葉毅然委員也有寫在裡頭 裡面很多我認識的"},{"start":5661.91,"end":5687.333,"text":"您告訴我您何德何能我不是說你不夠優秀你不要誤會我非常尊重你何德何能當我們的司法院院長司法院院長是對全國不管是法律界律師、實務界學術界各方面要嘛學術界你出座等身要嘛你在法院系統裡頭你是一個相當有經驗的這個做法律這個裁判的法官要嘛你在這個"},{"start":5688.414,"end":5702.768,"text":"法律審判實務是一個非常卓富盛名的司法的捍衛者律師、大律師我不知道哪一點可以讓我說服你是有你的詮問書是哪一本啊"},{"start":5703.628,"end":5725.958,"text":"2015年我著作了一本Asian Courts in Context是牛津大學法學出版社所出版另外在2014年我也出版了一本Constitutionalism in Asia那也是英國出版社所出版那Constitutionalism in Asia亞洲憲政主義的專頁是他有1000多頁他是全球第一本有1000多頁1000多頁都是你寫的嗎"},{"start":5732.961,"end":5735.723,"text":"是你編的是不是?是你主編的?是你編的嗎?所以你是一個很好的編輯?我沒有疑問?那你也寫了幾篇嗎?就跟這個一樣?那總共有多少位作者?非常好!請問在14...在這個1000多位裡頭有多少位作者?"},{"start":5763.501,"end":5763.661,"text":"司法院院長"},{"start":5784.17,"end":5802.289,"text":"我們不是針對你我們是比較以前的翁岳昇大法官我們的許鍾麗院長過去的大法官跟院長並沒有國際上的權威著作所以因為你特別有國際上的權威著作你覺得那樣是權威著作的時候委員我也是現在國際憲法委員我尊重你我想請問你一些這個這麼"},{"start":5806.073,"end":5834.1,"text":"我敬佩的這個我們的這個大學姐我特別想請教你幾個議題就是我看到這個憲法憲判法第8號的判決判處死刑應經各級法院合議法官一致決對吧你有看到這個判決吧是這個原因是因為死刑是不是因為死刑是因為剝奪人民的這個生命權相當重要沒錯吧是所以應該要一致決"},{"start":5835.556,"end":5859.812,"text":"報告委員這個大法官在這個憲判裏頭很清楚的移動到我其他我看過因為我是今天是質詢您請問您是不是認同是因為沒關係這個本來個人有個人的想法人治廢人不是這個我事實上很尊重我會說這個他的一致決的原因是不是因為他的背後的原因是不是因為說因為此行實在是剝奪人民的這個生命權嘛非常重要所以應該一致決對吧"},{"start":5862.391,"end":5864.192,"text":"記於最嚴格正當程序的考量"},{"start":5877.618,"end":5890.346,"text":"我必須要遵守憲法法庭所作成的判決你事實上你的文章有多多有寫你支持廢死的那個沒關係你贊同也OK啦就本來有不同意見你現在在這裡不敢講說你贊同喔並不是委員我應該尊重那個法制所以作為任何國家的一個司法最高職位的被提名人他一定必須要遵守這個國家憲法法庭所作的判決所以你贊成廢死是因為你被當了這個這個準提名人就被當了準院長所以你贊同啦"},{"start":5906.195,"end":5930.371,"text":"那如果你今天撇開你沒有你身為一個學者撇開你沒有被提名你會贊同嗎委員大法官所做的憲法裁判有拘束全國各機關及人人的教育這你現在沒被拘學術學者如果什麼都被拘學者還要評論嗎學者就完全教本宣科你是活在共產主義國家學者就是要勇於創新想出自己的想法才叫學者嗎你還這樣還叫著作等身喔"},{"start":5931.131,"end":5946.008,"text":"你不能有創新的想法你今天可以做這個婦女的女權啊性別平權的這個嗎我只是問你這個這沒有什麼疑問的我只是這個我事實上我覺得這些知識廢死的大法官有他們的想法他們可能是覺得這個我是想說這是不是因為這樣子"},{"start":5946.829,"end":5950.21,"text":"委員大法官作成的決定的基礎是立法院國內法劃的公正公約的第6條以及他的第36號一般性意見要求兩項延誤的最大陳述我想請問你"},{"start":5966.977,"end":5988.775,"text":"所以你都不願意針對問題回答我只是問你支不支持Face你對Face的看法你也不願意回答我真的很難期待如果你當院長的時候如果下面的人有一些問題問你說這個按照法律應該怎麼怎樣然後你都沒有辦法給他們答案身為一個領導領導是要有自己的想法蔡英文以前有自己的想法打臉自己以前的想法她也是勇往直前"},{"start":5989.575,"end":6016.948,"text":"這個才叫做領導,領袖人物嘛你今天要做的是領袖人物你有你自己的想法你就會對你勇往直前嘛那我現在問你你又不敢回答我就不知道為什麼委員作為一個司法院院長的被提名人以及將來憲法法庭的審判長我唯一能夠回答的我唯一必須要捍衛的就是憲法法庭的裁判如果連憲法法庭的審判長我的看法覺得說欸事實上他覺得說要一致決那你覺得這個我們立法院通過各種政策重不重要"},{"start":6017.799,"end":6042.552,"text":"就是優關的重大的國家不管剛剛吳少偉講的那些重大什麼採劃法什麼各方面的這些政策是不是對國家影響也很大立法院當然是一個非常重要的代議機關用過這些法律也是相當重要的吧立法政策的行使跟裁量當然也非常重要因為這個重要性雖然不一樣但是它也不會屬於這個對人民生命權剝奪的剝奪的生命權的重要性嘛不同領域啊但是也相當重要對吧"},{"start":6043.383,"end":6069.034,"text":"當然,因為...當然相當重要,好,謝謝你,我也知道相當重要齁那在它相當重要的情況下,如果大法官齁,這個憲法法庭要判這個一樣非常重要的這個國家的政策,我們立法院通過法律齁,它是違憲的那也當然我們應該要學習大法官這樣的精神啊一致決,憲法法庭就應該一致決啊,對嗎?"},{"start":6071.295,"end":6089.23,"text":"這是不對的為什麼不對呢委員因為憲法法庭並沒有個案生命權擔奪的權利不是我們通過國會改革無法嗎憲法法庭不是跟我們針對這個來做視線嗎因為很多憲政機關提起嘛對不對我覺得憲法法庭既然如此的如此的尊重生命權覺得"},{"start":6090.031,"end":6114.586,"text":"任何人生命權的剝奪．就應該要各級法院的一致決．這是憲法法庭做出的實質廢死的判決．各級法院一致決．對於跟生命權一樣重要的法益．就是立法通過各項的政策．法令．它也是相當重要的．在憲法法庭在裁判他．是不是違憲的時候．"},{"start":6116.867,"end":6132.024,"text":"我們憲法法庭不能只只也是要反求諸己啊不能說你各級法院判的時候你都要給我一字決到了我憲法法庭做釋憲的時候就不用一字決這樣是不是太嚴以待人快與利己啊"},{"start":6132.725,"end":6161.177,"text":"委員美國聯邦最高法院也是如此我知道美國聯邦最高法院有沒有做出什麼判決說這個憲法比如說死刑這種就是不要說死刑其他各方面的這個判決都要一致決才可以通過如果今天先進的美國憲法也說各樣的法律判決各樣的人民的法議的這個爭衝之間判決各級法院都要每一位每一級法院每一位法官都要一致決的話"},{"start":6162.578,"end":6165.52,"text":"美國聯邦最高法院曾經要求各州法院在進行這個最終法院最新"},{"start":6178.691,"end":6195.23,"text":"所以他要求各州法院在做成最嚴重罪行跟死刑的科處的時候陪審團必須要進行一致決那尤其要進行陪審團每一個成績嗎每一個成績是不是陪審團因為只有在一審所以當然只有在一審所以他又要求要一致決吧"},{"start":6196.551,"end":6220.648,"text":"但是美國聯邦最高法院在做成這個要求的時候他自己當然不是一次決他還是採取上來的多次決所以您剛剛問到的是有這樣的外國法所以大法官所有這個最高的憲法長管憲法的大法官在要求下級法院做判決的時候都要求一次決對不對但是對於自己要做所謂釋憲的這個解釋的時候都不要求一次決這是現在的實況是吧"},{"start":6221.768,"end":6241.554,"text":"這是因為大法官做的是抽象規範的解釋大法官不會直接去剝奪一個個人的身份權大法官不會大法官不會嗎今天你跟我講大法官今天做的你再講一次大法官今天做的任何的事宣你現在講對於這個憲法法院所判決不會剝奪人民實質的權益喔"},{"start":6244.836,"end":6272.257,"text":"不會剝奪人民的生命權大法官的監察法庭的裁判因為不是只針對死刑告訴你我現在跟我們在討論的是說大法官要求所有的法院各域法院做一致決的時候自己做事先的時候這些更重要的很多法議啊包括國家怎麼改革啊這個監察院啊各個法院各個縣機關的權利行使的時候竟然不用要求做一致決那你說這個不會你剛剛說的是這個是不會當然不會不會因為法政策通常不一定跟"},{"start":6273.098,"end":6294.083,"text":"這跟生命有關係,這跟政策有關係,你說這個不會影響到人民的權益嗎?你告訴我這個不會影響到人民的權益嗎?憲法法庭裁判的效力最多影響到這個條件是發回原審法院來做成決定,所以法官的憲法裁判不會直接的去涉及處理人民的基本權利,它只能夠發回。"},{"start":6296.244,"end":6311.504,"text":"那我把你這句話說清楚我們一定要講很清楚不然我誤解你就憲法法庭所做的判決或者是解釋各方面以前叫解釋這個裁判不會直接影響人民的權益就對了是吧這是你的說法嗎"},{"start":6312.485,"end":6322.892,"text":"憲法法庭的裁判的對象：如果是判決：而當這個判決：或是憲政機關提出了任何視線：因為人民也有嘛：人民也有提出相關的這個：視線的這個：也有過嘛：很多啦：憲法說不會：不會直接影響人民的權益：對吧"},{"start":6328.556,"end":6356.186,"text":"你剛是這樣講嗎?我剛不是這樣講那你講清楚喔是,憲法法庭做成的判決如果對像是下級法院的裁判的時候如果是人民呢?如果是人民呢?憲法法庭只能夠撤銷發回所以憲法法庭沒有辦法直接對個案做成決定所以因為是這樣的制度設計所以他所做出的裁判不管是對憲政計畫或者對那個百姓提出的不會直接影響人民的權利對吧?他不會直接影響這個個案"},{"start":6358.087,"end":6382.639,"text":"對啦 個案就是有一個一個因為個案需要由下級法院來做決定憲法法院只能夠撤銷發回那這樣是不是不會直接影響到人民的權利我只要這一句話 會不會憲法法院做成所有的憲法裁判都會影響人民的權利你剛剛前面講不是這樣子啦剛剛講說不會影響人民的權利所以不用一字決啊委員您剛剛問到的是憲法法庭會不會直接剝奪人民的生命權我沒有問剝奪人民的生命權生命權當然不是我問的啊"},{"start":6386.941,"end":6392.724,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝被提名的下一位我們請林淑芬委員詢問怎麼這麼多麥克風?"},{"start":6419.741,"end":6419.962,"text":"請張備提名人答詢"},{"start":6440.612,"end":6455.881,"text":"院長早委員好事實上台灣的司法形象極差人民的信任度也極低那所以司法院的形象你背負著重責大任那有幾個制度面的問題先就教於你第一個問題就是說"},{"start":6457.381,"end":6477.754,"text":"這個立法院99年通過少年級家事法院組織法的時候做成了一個附帶決議要求考量城鄉差距及業務需要要5年內在北中南東各設各成立一所這個少家法院解決少年級家事法院結果你們101年真的成立了高雄少家法院"},{"start":6478.334,"end":6501.684,"text":"但是北中東三個地區過了15年事實上都沒有設置可是呢你們突然宣稱在明年要成立北部的少家法院預計114年要租用然後要開工要成立115年要成立要運作請問一下這個你對於這個少家法院還有這個相關的規劃你的看法是什麼"},{"start":6503.022,"end":6529.312,"text":"謝謝委員的提問少家法院真的是非常重要因為在我國國內法化兒童權利公約之後那接下來我們的相關的你這樣講我們我再跟你就教於你啊就是說現在北部每個地方法院都有自己的少年級家世庭臺北地院的少家庭是在新店新北地院的這個少家庭是在板橋士林是在天母而你們根據立法院的附帶決議而已"},{"start":6531.053,"end":6557.346,"text":"真的要去把它設置4個少佳法院：對我們來講會產生幾個問題一、讓人民到法院的可進性變困難而且呢過去就是因為民眾去法院很不方便所以本來法院的劃分轄區是要便利人民讓人民可進性提高到法院的時候可以更方便結果你成立少佳法院"},{"start":6558.82,"end":6571.776,"text":"本來是以前是幾個縣市共用一個法院然後改成說一個縣市有一個法院現在你邵家法院又要改回成幾個縣市共用一個法院"},{"start":6572.895,"end":6597.148,"text":"走回頭路更退步然後可靜性變差了第二個問題花更多預算然後我們不曉得你招三募四市的調動法官然後集中到邵家法院去大家開庭要舟車勞頓整個北部地區幾個縣市全部宜蘭的也要來桃園的也要來可能都"},{"start":6599.689,"end":6626.807,"text":"請台北共用一個法院所以這裡面的法官調動來調動去其實還是從原本各法院辦理邵家事件的法官在調而已所以朝三暮四式的調動法官卻不知所謂為何事啊然後你把這個法官的空間留下來花這麼多錢到底成立邵家法院的目的是要解決什麼問題這真的是務實好的這個方向政策方向嗎"},{"start":6628.088,"end":6654.541,"text":"委員謝謝你的這個提醒事實上我剛剛在致死稿提到過去幾年的思改確實有很多這個一直往家法甚至是越大越好這樣的方式所以行政訴訟我們也前前後後做了兩次的調整那所以這個確實將來這只是立法院通過組織法的所有的附帶決議你們還真的當真就你所知這有解決任何問題嗎?增加一個少家法院有解決任何問題嗎?"},{"start":6656.636,"end":6661.858,"text":"委員這個等我上任有機會之後我會仔細的檢討我剛剛講過我們不能都是加法我們也適當的要檢法同時要尊重現有制度的運行行政訴訟在過去幾年間就是有這種兩種不同方式的修改"},{"start":6673.581,"end":6690.981,"text":"有真的在審理以人民的權利優先為第一就是最重要不要為了成立而成立第二個問題法官法在100年制定公佈這個法官法第74條第一項規定法官的職務評定只有良好跟不良好兩種"},{"start":6692.262,"end":6708.158,"text":"一改過去考機的分級過去考機有甲乙丙等法官法施行以後法官的職務評定只有良好跟不良好這個兩種請教你從法官法施行之後到現在全國法官你知道被評定為不良好的比例有多高嗎"},{"start":6709.451,"end":6724.745,"text":"委員我現在沒有具體的事項不過我知道非常低那這也是一個非常困難屈指可數那在法官法施行以前全國法官考機被打一等的人數不少所以過去考機是夾一等的現在都較良好平等的現在都是不好"},{"start":6727.708,"end":6748.265,"text":"所以啊我們在這裡這種現行的法官法之下你到底有沒有想過要如何運用你的司法行政監督的力量去淘汰不適任的法官呢司法人形象這麼差但你的職務監督的功能也不彰那你沒有相關的行政監督的權利那司法為什麼不受人民這個信任"},{"start":6749.466,"end":6766.375,"text":"因為大家談到法院都憤恨不平啊法官最大啊沒有行政監督啊甚至我們在開庭審理的時候講什麼法官也不理會連判決書在書寫的時候也不交代不回應民眾的這個陳述你要如何改善這個現象"},{"start":6767.896,"end":6783.76,"text":"委員這個確實是我們現在很大的挑戰我被提名之後其實有機會跟幾個院長、司法前輩做過很多意見的交換那因為我們司法行政監督權的行使必須要維護司法獨立但是在這個空間裡頭我們有法律啊法律有授權給你啊我們有很多的誘因機制以及相關的這個機制可以來進行"},{"start":6789.822,"end":6815.759,"text":"有法律依據阿你要羅伯有棒子阿對不對那你說你要讓他司法獨立審理可是你又對這些不是這個法官也無能為力也不做行政監督我們法官法第19條法官與其獨立審判不受影響之限度內受職務監督阿法律明文規定職務監督包括制止法官違法行使之權"},{"start":6816.839,"end":6843.514,"text":"糾正法官不當言行．督促法官依法迅速執行職務此外法官法第35條．法官憑藉委員會為確定行為模式的必要．得就未經請求的為施情形．並與調查及審議進行行為模式的主動調查而你們法評會欠缺主動的效能．不願意主動的去監督和淘汰不適任的法官這就是司法形象敗壞的主因然後呢你們的法評會如果"},{"start":6845.456,"end":6857.43,"text":"這個不願意調查之後如果不得已要調查的他們首先會認定為無懲戒的必要那由無懲戒的必要本來應該送這個懲戒法院的都送人審會然後再輕輕放下"},{"start":6859.873,"end":6886.355,"text":"所以在這種過程當中．法律授權給你們的職務監督、行政監督．通通沒有人要使用最高行政法院院長吳東都．在112年10月25年就任的時候表示．法院的院長事後看法官的裁判書．不僅是權限．更是院長的責任義務．所以他說他任內的工作重心之一．就是落實事後研閱法官裁判書的工作．請問你是否認同"},{"start":6888.066,"end":6914.243,"text":"委員過去我們有所謂的這個個別法官的裁判的送審評院那個是過去的時代了我們不能走回頭路但是您剛提到的在法官法的現有的這個司法行政監督的範圍內那同時我剛特別提到我希望引入這個美國聯邦最高法院的專門委員會的經驗那能夠由這個法官或退休的法官有經驗有傳承的能夠解決這個部分的問題"},{"start":6918.046,"end":6918.346,"text":"法官法第35條"},{"start":6924.963,"end":6951.914,"text":"我當然要以法官法為依據我剛剛不是講19條、35條都明文規定了但是具體的方式要有許多更彈性的方式具體的方式現在我們再講回來實務面很多行政管理的院長、副院長他們幾乎都沒有實務的經驗了你們學界出身啊這個紙上談兵啊但實務面的很多問題執行起來是真的很荒謬的各級法院院長也都是法官啦不用辦案庭長、審判長也都減少分案"},{"start":6954.815,"end":6980.062,"text":"他的目的這樣做就是要讓庭長、審判長、院長要能夠監督庭院的辦案品質但是在實務上到底要怎麼樣具體監督呢比如說你們在講說合議制大家合議法庭大家這個合議但是事實上合議包括審判長他真的從一開始就合議三個人一起的合議的嗎你知道實務界是不是嗎"},{"start":6981.294,"end":7002.564,"text":"委員因為這個案件量相當多所以確實有一些法庭這個有這個善用這個完善合議的功能有一些法庭確實在這個案件負荷的情況底下那基本上不是有一些啦大多數啦從案件一收案就沒有再合議啦分案以後就受命法官處理啦"},{"start":7003.664,"end":7010.106,"text":"都還沒有合議行事案件要等到辯論傳證人的時候合議庭才會出現民事在二審事件都是受命法官要結案了要辯論的前一個禮拜才將卷送給審判長我們為什麼讓他這樣子因為我們希望你要做好你的職務監督可是事實上這個審判長一個禮拜以前才送卷來看得完嗎事實上書面是沒有在看沒辦法看歷有未待"},{"start":7032.665,"end":7057.827,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們讓你減少分案讓你去做職務監督法律也有工具可是事實上沒有沒有人願意去做這種事情沒有人願意做拍檔沒有人怕動輒得咎干預司法樂得輕鬆過去都不要管結果這個頭銜這個審判長、庭長出去外面社交的工具很好用這是某某法院的審判長、庭長"},{"start":7060.549,"end":7073.942,"text":"很好用啦但賦予他這個頭銜的責任沒有人要承擔啦那我現在講說你剛剛講你剛剛講說要簡化裁判書的製作優化事件的審理的工作流程"},{"start":7074.605,"end":7097.915,"text":"我就是要講AI寫判決當初去年的預算我很有意見AI是要餵養他的你們多少預算餵養多少的案件量他生成什麼樣的判決書不是簡單的幾句話幾個錢就做得到知識體大以用科技手段和工具真的要得當"},{"start":7098.835,"end":7121.855,"text":"然後呢簡化程序我現在講你們在講簡化程序簡化程序的改革我就要跟你講民事訴訟法在110年司法院提案修正將過所有的交通事故不管他幾死幾傷多重大所有全部的交通事故簡化程序由原來的普通庭審理全部都移給檢疫庭審理"},{"start":7124.838,"end":7152.145,"text":"由通常訴訟事件變成檢疫事件但是我要告訴你喔院長你們學界出身你們真的沒有實務上的經驗司法院所認定的檢疫事件在每一個當事人在每個人民的心中一點都不檢疫民眾生活遇到了重大的死傷的交通事故你們把它變成檢疫以後開庭一次就要結案"},{"start":7154.229,"end":7156.2,"text":"開庭一次要結案是怎麼結啊"},{"start":7158.151,"end":7183.83,"text":"我質詢過當時代理的副秘書長他說檢疫事件比較快速但是我問說為了快速就可以不用管真實嗎一個有傷亡的交通事故需要調查多少事情造勢責任比例要不要調查堅定單位有出審有復議都需要時間司法院修法把它通通變成檢疫庭開一次為原則然後呢"},{"start":7184.793,"end":7213.111,"text":"除了招式責任以外還有醫療費用、看護費用、撫養費用需要調查施能比例也要鑑定以上種種是怎麼樣可以透過一次開庭就可以完成呢所以你的檢疫不要講得這麼輕鬆犧牲人民的權利解決你們的案量但賠掉的是司法形象司法院這樣的檢疫啊檢疫庭你知道一個檢疫庭的法官每個月要分多少案件嗎"},{"start":7216.274,"end":7241.213,"text":"一百件以上一個法官一百件以上當然這裡面有扣除銀行請求信用債務的案件但是每個檢議庭的法官負荷還是很重所以司法院當時大家都利益良善要有迅速要有效率可是呢從這個交通事件的民事審理交給檢議庭法官以後"},{"start":7242.907,"end":7245.751,"text":"請問你如果出任司法院的院長,你會如何改善?"},{"start":7256.337,"end":7265.43,"text":"因為我剛剛一開始就已經講了過去有一些措施為了要快速的達到它的效果所以需要積極的研討所以我剛剛已經講過我在司法院會召開這個過去這些包括您剛剛提到檢疫程序講這一些事情"},{"start":7273.459,"end":7274.08,"text":"發言是簡化啊 審理一次為原則啊 就要結案了餒"},{"start":7297.501,"end":7302.083,"text":"我了解您的這個疑慮另外還有一個您剛剛提到的在我的制止裡頭我並不贊成AI的這個部分資訊系統必須要是協助法官的我在救教你因為我也問過當時去今年"},{"start":7313.849,"end":7334.083,"text":"年底11月的時候我問過當時的副院：副秘書長在講說倘若醫院的鑑定報告說被害人失能比例是50%檢疫法庭的法官看錯判決成20%然後被害人可以用法院對證據看錯來上訴第三層就是最高法院這個是當時副秘書長回答"},{"start":7334.884,"end":7363.21,"text":"然後他還說我認為法律規定是不可以但他認為可以他答應我要回去會通函給全國法官就是法院把證據看錯檢議庭車禍審理的民事訴訟如果法院把證據看錯當事人可以上訴第三審也就是最高法院如果你是司法院院長請問你未來會發這個函通告全國法官嗎"},{"start":7364.656,"end":7379.699,"text":"委員您剛提到的因為不是在法律允許的要件底下那你們當時的副秘書長來立法院備詢都親在公共都這樣虛偽他沒打勁來欺騙立委欺騙全國的人民欸當時喔他可以睜眼說瞎話嗎"},{"start":7381.618,"end":7404.951,"text":"所以你未來的秘書長會不會這樣做,我也不知道所以我們尊重司法,但我現在跟你談的都是制度面的問題喔,制度面喔所以我這一講就是檢疫法庭、檢疫審理、車禍重大、車禍傷亡,這樣子處理問題很多再來就是刑事訴訟法第208條的規定,也就是我們現在講,我也諮詢過很多次"},{"start":7405.888,"end":7423.122,"text":"就是醫療糾紛的鑑定然後要在書面上叫自然人具名可是在修法的時候醫生全部拒絕然後呢衛福部也說這樣子不行會自愛難行可是當時司法院一意孤行堅持通過現在好了"},{"start":7425.043,"end":7450.893,"text":"全國地檢署委託衛福部醫審會鑒定的所有的醫療糾紛鑒定案件300件衛福部的醫審會全部退回造成這300人的案件當事人訴訟權益受損而且是停擺行程有權利但是不能救濟只因為行政部門兩個院在那裡打架解不開這個問題"},{"start":7452.213,"end":7459.156,"text":"而停擺到現在已經好幾個月了差快要一年了當事人權利他沒有辦法審理耶所以在這裡你會不會承諾我們會解決這個問題"},{"start":7465.441,"end":7483.41,"text":"不是回去說我去你們那個行事廳長講的我回去找誰溝通一下找誰溝通一下溝通完了就什麼都沒有做什麼也沒改變而這些醫療糾紛訴訟的當事人的案件越來越多可是全部都無法進行審理停擺"},{"start":7485.711,"end":7493.555,"text":"台灣社會最精英的兩大勢力．法界、醫界、鬥法．而人民遭殃．我們怎麼辦．你當院長要怎麼辦．"},{"start":7496.328,"end":7518.866,"text":"委員這些當然是攸關臺灣人民生命跟健康權的保障我會 呃 非常重視：連擺很久了：你剛剛講到說學者不適任我認為剛好相反因為我沒有任何的負擔那在過去我其實藉調陽明交大在一屆我很深刻：沒關係你具體告訴我你擔任司法院院長以後能不能解決這個醫療糾紛訴訟權益受損的問題我們國家要不要還給人民救濟的途徑管道跟機會"},{"start":7525.931,"end":7551.048,"text":"我們有這個義務來解決當然有義務啊所以我再問你喔勞動事件法勞動事件法也修正了啦你們這個勞動事件法不是修正是訂定了然後利益良善可是執行起來問題頗多其中最重要的一環就是強制調解如果你在這個起訴後要求法院暫停審理先行調解調解先行"},{"start":7553.47,"end":7567.476,"text":"如果你的調解率成功的話那麼要求強制調解還有道理你們司法院調解成效不彰然後浪費人民三個月不得循正常程序去救濟"},{"start":7568.596,"end":7591.554,"text":"然後在那裡．你們延緩人民取得有效的．迅速的救濟然後第31條第一項規定．勞動調解委員會參酌事件的性質．認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速與妥適解決．或不能依職權提出適當方案者．視為調解不成立．並告知或通知當事人．所以你這個規定你們解讀成．"},{"start":7592.395,"end":7615.302,"text":"只有勞動調解委員會．只有法院的調解會．可以宣布調解不成立．然後才可以順利的進行訴訟．人民沒有主動的．認定我這個調解不可能成功．我不想再調解．我要最快速的進行正常的訴訟程序．人民沒有．勞方沒有這一方面的這個成立．"},{"start":7615.822,"end":7642.454,"text":"那為什麼勞工不能夠喊調解不成立要去進行訴訟卻不可以不是當事人中心主義嗎大家司法改革最喜歡講當事人中心主義可是如果你擔任司法院院長以後是不是應該尊重人民的程序上的選擇可不可以委員好幾個配套因為沒有能夠完成所以幫他調解的機制的配套當然人民的程序的選擇跟我們法院"},{"start":7666.632,"end":7669.853,"text":"報告全院委員會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行詢問,現在休息。"},{"start":8278.789,"end":8305.083,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行委員詢問請楊委員求您詢問謝謝院會主席、江副院長、新聞界的朋友、各位同仁首先邀請貝提名人我們請張貝提名人答詢"},{"start":8314.728,"end":8341.686,"text":"委員好首先本席要請教你在針對於實行的這個憲法事件時你認為大法官的角色應當是引導社會的改變還是僅作為憲法條文的忠實解釋者那麼未來你擔任這個職務的時候你要如何的去防止"},{"start":8342.526,"end":8360.957,"text":"司法過度的政治化．身為司法院院長的提名人．你如何來看待施行純廢正義．在司法改革當中．它的優先性．那你是否有具體的改革．以及社會溝通的計畫．請做說明"},{"start":8363.939,"end":8391.392,"text":"謝謝委員那這個我剛剛也一再提到作為司法院院長以及未來審判長的這個被提名人那我必須要這個尊重遵守憲法法庭的判決那這次憲法法庭的判決其實一開始就很明確的提到大法官認為死刑在目前我國是核限的那所以在這樣的一個核限的憲法解釋憲法裁判底下那我必須要這個予以遵循當然"},{"start":8392.872,"end":8414.939,"text":"大法官對於社會爭議的議題到底應該要扮演何種角色我剛在我致辭的時候特別提到現在有兩種很不同的要求一個是希望大法官引領改變另外一個是希望大法官能夠自治能夠尊重政治部門那我自己希望將來作為審判長作為司法院院長我希望能夠這個按照"},{"start":8417.4,"end":8440.781,"text":"過去這種程序取向、制度取向的憲法解釋跟裁判大法官不應該輕易的替社會做成決定那大法官應該要給社會、給政治部門多一些討論、溝通的空間那在這樣的立場底下您剛剛提到這個對於死刑的這個相關的爭議因為大法官已經明確表示死刑是核限的"},{"start":8441.201,"end":8465.737,"text":"所以我認為這個議題在臺灣的社會現在並不是一個急迫的議題我們有好多司改的問題那剛剛提到的非常多我們的醫療、交通各式各樣的司法糾紛那以及相關的制度法院的法官的效能我會將這些議題當作我最重要的任務那這個是我對委員您的提問的回答謝謝充分的給你說明因為今天"},{"start":8466.798,"end":8482.59,"text":"提名人我希望聽到你們多方你對任何一件事情的一個論述那如果照剛剛您的說法呢也就是是不是引導社會的改變還是憲法條文的忠實解釋者"},{"start":8483.05,"end":8501.108,"text":"你幾乎是各辦那本席要再請教也就是你是否同意既然是各辦的情況分為你是否認同外界對於此次大法官施行解釋、釋憲的結論是實質廢死的聲音你認為呢"},{"start":8505.752,"end":8512.677,"text":"我認為外界忽視了大法官在這次憲法裁判的第一句開宗明義就說死刑是和諧的"},{"start":8535.992,"end":8564.346,"text":"是嗎?委員我在作為學者的立場已經寫過非常多文章但是一旦任何人在美國在德國都一樣作為一個這個尤其是審判長被提名人的角色我唯一的立場只有遵守憲法法庭的裁判憲法法庭目前認為死刑是合憲的憲法法庭的裁判但是本席願意給你機會啊因為外界認為您是主張廢死立場非常明顯的是嗎?"},{"start":8566.536,"end":8589.937,"text":"那個委員這是外界對我的誤解我必須要說我在作為學者的時候有非常多的你認為這是學者時候的論述那你也認為是外界對你的這個誤解因為你今天是被提名人大法官這個位置是非常的莊嚴的所以我們希望也不希望外界有任何的誤解希望聽到你親口"},{"start":8590.998,"end":8591.459,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8610.031,"end":8633.574,"text":"委員我作為司法職位被提名人士的我必須要遵守憲法解釋跟憲法裁判好謝謝那接下來本席要請教因為在憲判8號公布之後已經大幅的限縮限縮了判處死刑的一個可能性那麼姦殺女老師的嫌犯在5次判處死刑"},{"start":8634.355,"end":8661.126,"text":"但是在現判8號之後他在今年的4月更市審更市審改為無期徒刑也就是逃死定限對於這些被害家屬他們的心靈他們的傷害家屬的權益以及他們所反映出來的不滿還有民眾聚集白玫瑰等那麼這些的集會抗議您聽到了嗎"},{"start":8662.981,"end":8666.062,"text":"大法官的憲法法庭的判決認為死刑是合憲的"},{"start":8688.951,"end":8689.891,"text":"好感謝你有聽到這些被害家屬他們的心聲、人權、善良人"},{"start":8713.332,"end":8715.293,"text":"臺灣在完全廢除死刑之前目前急需暫行"},{"start":8732.658,"end":8738.001,"text":"委員2014年的時候我的報告處理這個過去的個案其中有一個個案是1980年代原住民青年湯英生那因為他在這個工作的這個被剝奪那以及各種的困難的情境"},{"start":8761.417,"end":8786.92,"text":"所犯下的苛處死刑以及另外一個這個監察院好你就個案來做你2014年你在報告當中的這個說明所以本席要跟你討論你要確保確保加害者的人權但是我仍舊要回到剛剛那個主題80%的人反對廢除死刑那麼本席要請教"},{"start":8788.001,"end":8808.933,"text":"那被害人的人權呢?請做說明主席被害人的人權非常的重要那這也是這個我們國內化公正公約第6條第36號一般信義意見一開始就強調的非常感謝你的回答非常感謝你的回答被害人的人權很重要所以本期要請教本期要請教"},{"start":8810.236,"end":8824.094,"text":"你認為這一次也就是實質判死剛剛你說是大家誤會了這個大法官的一個解釋那所以換句話說有人質疑你的實質廢死認為還是不夠"},{"start":8825.996,"end":8849.764,"text":"你的願景是什麼呢?你的願景是要推動完全廢死、終止廢死本事要請教這是你的目標嗎?當你擔任了大法官的這個職務的時候尤其是院長的職務你會繼續推動完全廢死、終止廢死嗎?請做說明委員我在擔任司改國師會議是第一分組的委員那個分組的"},{"start":8850.686,"end":8852.567,"text":"委員任何一個司法職位被提名人"},{"start":8880.174,"end":8882.075,"text":"你這麼說也就是剛剛本席大家所對你的質疑的目標是你當時在做那個職務的時候的論述本席可以這麼解釋嗎"},{"start":8906.892,"end":8916.368,"text":"那篇文章以及相關的文章當時處理的是非常多我們這個無辜冤案的個案包括其中剛我一個來不及講到的被監察院認定"},{"start":8917.11,"end":8923.173,"text":"剛才我們討論過了這是你以個案來解讀這個部分那當然未來如果有機會你當上了這個職務所以剛剛我們這麼長的討論也就是說我可以這麼解讀嗎?也就是你會核限但是你不會去推動完全廢止跟終止廢止可以這麼解讀嗎?"},{"start":8947.148,"end":8968.861,"text":"委員您可以完全感受到憲法法庭最近的這個裁判對我們的社會對我們的法治有很重大的影響既然已經做成了當然民眾很害怕百分之八十不安心你講到重點了要聽到民眾的心聲一個國家最重要的要讓人民安心如果連安心都不足那我們真的是"},{"start":8969.801,"end":8987.927,"text":"很辛苦欸既然憲法法庭已經做成了裁判而且是很困難的認定了死刑在我國目前是核限的那必須要在程序跟實體來嚴格的加以適用那我會遵循這個憲法裁判嚴格的加以訓這個這個但是本身還是要告訴你那個個案的對不對那個女老師這麼可憐最後是判處什麼"},{"start":8995.538,"end":9008.164,"text":"無期徒刑加害人怎麼辦他們的心聲怎麼辦所以本席還是再請教既然您這麼說都是合憲認為死刑是合憲但是實質"},{"start":9009.744,"end":9031.599,"text":"案子告訴我們他是無期徒刑有五度的判決死刑他是無期徒刑這樣的情況本期再一次請教以前你不管當委員當這個教授也好大家認為你是支持廢除死刑終極死刑的廢死終極廢死在這樣子目前的狀態你還會維持這個方向嗎"},{"start":9035.39,"end":9052.851,"text":"委員我再次多次跟您說明那在司法職位這個被提名人的角色上事實上美國聯邦最高法院德國憲法法院在被他們的國會質詢的時候他只能有唯一的一個回答就是他一旦被任命這個職位他不能按照他個人的理念跟價值"},{"start":9053.832,"end":9081.828,"text":"本席就要聽到你這句話你必須要依法而不是依你的理想跟你的立場這個是我們討論十來分鐘的一個重點告訴你接下來本席要請教政治中立性大家認為你曾經參與了國會改革的這個解釋案事先案你提出了這個鑑定意見那請教未來你擔任的這個職務你會保持政治中立性嗎"},{"start":9083.379,"end":9083.519,"text":"會還是不會?"},{"start":9113.479,"end":9113.499,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":9131.81,"end":9149.37,"text":"未來你擔任大法官的時候大家對你有一些的疑慮甚至是否定多數民意僅以立場理想來作為整個這個視線標準呢那大家有這個疑慮你的說法呢我願意給你說明"},{"start":9150.191,"end":9163.84,"text":"委員我一旦被提名開始到任命那接下來我都必須要獨立中立的行使職權這是憲法的誡命另外您剛剛提到我一些相關的實務參與的這個職位那我剛剛在報告的時候有提到我從2020年學成反國事實上不管是在"},{"start":9177.746,"end":9193.011,"text":"您的回答可以讓我們了解你在做什麼職務你就是會全力以赴你的立場跟理想所以我們也希望這樣子的討論能夠讓你更確定你未來的職務你現在提名人的角色是什麼"},{"start":9193.911,"end":9220.168,"text":"那接下來本席跟你討論也就是推動整個司法它是透明化提升了整個公信力跟加強人權的保障這個是最基本的原則對不對是你的點頭本席繼續跟你討論學術跟實務的平衡因為這一次的提名很多人說它是集中在學術的背景跟實務的經驗似乎是脫鉤所以你要怎麼樣確保司法判決不會脫鉤實際"},{"start":9222.549,"end":9233.321,"text":"的一個需求請做說明謝謝委員給我這個機會我剛剛特別提到在我們整個法院的現代化資訊化的這個量能的處理上"},{"start":9233.803,"end":9260.084,"text":"非常的這個老舊那如果很多人到各個法院去看我們還用很多的紙本堆疊然後一個案件從禁案到收案到書記官登錄到最後進到法官辦公室事實上都要花非常長的時間那過去幾年我在這個高院的刑事補償求償委員會裡頭那常常就看到甚至我們從這個宜蘭到台灣高院那這麼短的一個距離但是他公文卻要兩個禮拜以上"},{"start":9262.206,"end":9273.841,"text":"這是人民的痛苦啊所以立法院才會通過一個速審法八年必須完成啊要不然以前一拖啊一二十年二十幾年這個家庭就完蛋了這怎麼生活呢 對不對"},{"start":9276.298,"end":9294.646,"text":"謝謝委員所以我最大的職責我剛剛在報告我希望能夠推動我們法院在整個數位跟資訊基礎的現代化這個是迫不及待的以一個迫不及待數位化節省人力跟時間讓它可以更順暢我們繼續來討論也就是司法官過勞的這個問題"},{"start":9300.769,"end":9309.832,"text":"那在許院長的時候他一上任也是我信心滿滿要怎麼改革怎麼改革怎麼改革法官一個月以上百件案件"},{"start":9321.011,"end":9334.656,"text":"法官法庭要怎麼樣期待他不是過勞他不是過勞你要如何的去減少法官的這個工作量呢請做說明委員我剛剛有提到那這個疏減這個案源"},{"start":9337.379,"end":9351.685,"text":"讓這個很多調解和解的機制能夠發揮那同時我剛在報告當中特別提到事實上我們每10萬人只有9位法官這個其實不到歐洲國家的中位數怎麼去解決怎麼去改善呢我們要特別感謝我們的調解委員會在最基層在法務的這個檢查系統之前就幫我們解決了多少層幾乎8層"},{"start":9363.01,"end":9363.733,"text":"解決了我們要感謝所有的調解委員會啊那解決了這些我們還這麼多那怎麼辦"},{"start":9370.23,"end":9370.55,"text":"減量不是你可以決定的"},{"start":9394.504,"end":9410.075,"text":"人民最主要民主國家這是我的權利,減量不是你可以決定的,所以你這個回答本身不滿意。沒有錯,好好你承認,但是也就是說在整個流程上面要怎麼樣協助法官,太辛苦了。"},{"start":9410.675,"end":9435.576,"text":"人民也痛苦所以這個問題務必要好好的去研議所以因此外界對於你的期待是能夠堅守整個司法獨立防範政治干預因為剛剛我們有討論過有人對你有一個政治力量的一個連結你要怎麼樣建立行政部門的適當距離確保整個司法機關的一個獨立性"},{"start":9437.12,"end":9457.734,"text":"謝謝委員這個我從來沒有加入任何的政黨那剛剛也有委員提到說他可能也不太認識我事實上我是一個一直以來就是非常的獨立公立的公正的行使職權專注於這個我在做的事情而且非常有效能的完成這些事情所以我想這件事情這個我絕對可以在大院這裡確保那同時我的這個特質可以在大院確保什麼呢我將來的獨立公正行使職權"},{"start":9464.779,"end":9487.506,"text":"謝謝你的回答,獨立公正的一個執行所以我也希望你要聽到不要遠離人民的需求因為這個對人民的生活來講是影響了全方位的這個非常的重要所以本期也希望在裁決方面你要更接近民眾的生活跟期待多聽這個人民的聲音"},{"start":9489.947,"end":9490.087,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝楊委員"},{"start":9517.128,"end":9519.851,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩邀請被提名人張教授請張被提名人答詢"},{"start":9546.087,"end":9572.426,"text":"被提名人張教授您好那在看過你相關的學經歷那基本上社會大眾對你是有基本的信任跟肯定那從你的自傳之中也看出你相關學術成長的脈絡但是在相關的網路的搜尋或者是資料的提供等等比較難看出對於司法相關的政策跟理念"},{"start":9574.11,"end":9593.707,"text":"今天藉此機會我們請被提名人能夠清楚的說明對於未來司法的走向這不只是立法院關心不只是司法界關心而是社會大眾想要對於未來司法走向一個更清楚的一個認知那首先我要跟"},{"start":9594.668,"end":9607.737,"text":"被提名人張教授來討論的是有關於國際人權法跟司法實務相關司法判決的接軌的一個問題那被提名人他你"},{"start":9608.618,"end":9632.632,"text":"重要的研究跟關注的議題當然是在憲法跟國際人權法當然也是憲法跟國際人權法的一個匯流這是你專精的一個項目立法院從2009年到現在其實相繼的完成國際公約跟國內法接軌的這些相關的公約施行法"},{"start":9633.132,"end":9645.884,"text":"那其中包含了公民與政治權利、國際公約與經濟社會文化權利國際公約．還有身心障礙者權利公約、兒童權利公約．以及消除"},{"start":9646.934,"end":9667.083,"text":"對《婦女一切形式》、《歧視公約》等國際公約的施行法那現在我就要就教於被提名人我們對於相關公約的內容以及精神如果在司法判決中跟實務來結合就是說我們如何推動法官在判決中"},{"start":9668.744,"end":9681.063,"text":"經由立法院所制定的這些施行法．來強化對國人的保障．尤其是對身心障礙者．兒童跟婦女．請提名人說明一下．被提名人說明一下"},{"start":9682.17,"end":9703.142,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員的提問事實上作為台灣的一個公民我過去一直非常感激這個立法院能夠國內法化這些聯合國的核心國際人權公約我們台灣沒有辦法參與聯合國那所以並不知道這些核心國際人權公約在今天事實上對所有國家而言他都會在聯合國的人權理事會接受審查"},{"start":9703.982,"end":9726.955,"text":"包括那些威權獨裁國家其實也是一樣那所以台灣能夠國內法化這些公約對我們台灣作為國際社會遵守國際人權規範的議員事實上有很有效的提升特別您剛剛提到身心障礙者權利公約消除對於婦女一切歧視的公約尤其還有更重要的兒童權利公約這幾個公約事實上在過去的10年當中都深化強化了"},{"start":9728.115,"end":9754.272,"text":"那我國在對婦女在對兒童在對身心障礙者很多的權利保障上那這些本來在我們的憲法並沒有因為我們的中華民國憲法在人權清單裡頭相對是一個比較簡單的那所以我們今天通過這些人權公約能夠深化保障那逐漸的也越來越多我們法院的同仁包括司法院大法官、憲法法庭那事實上多次的在憲法法庭的裁判裡頭"},{"start":9755.452,"end":9757.754,"text":"司法院長社會最大的期待就是我們接下來要討論的議題如何持續相關的司法改革"},{"start":9784.787,"end":9805.754,"text":"提高人民對於司法的信任度那其實司法改革對於民眾來說他是一個相當熟悉的名詞卻又是一個相對模糊的概念那其實司法院我們有相關的司法的改革會議其實在1997年的7月"},{"start":9807.048,"end":9818.874,"text":"司法院就曾經舉行過全國司法改革會議那2016年的時候總統府也再度召開全國司法改革國事會議"},{"start":9820.263,"end":9848.817,"text":"司法改革的這些理念、措施就是要廣納民意的改革程序以及與時俱進的司法制度這是相關的核心理念司法改革其實相關的改革決議有些已經部分在實施但是還是有很多決議尚待落實一般民眾對於司法的信任度"},{"start":9850.392,"end":9858.891,"text":"卻還是有待持續的提升那司法改革當然是司法院未來重要的業務之一那我要請教你那未來"},{"start":9860.566,"end":9879.523,"text":"持續的司法改革的重點是什麼你如何去提升人民對司法的信任度來請說明謝謝委員的提問事實上1996年那一次由司法院召開的司法那當時我還是那個相關的委員會的小助理那今天有機會那經過這麼樣的一個成長"},{"start":9883.209,"end":9910.262,"text":"這個到這裡接下來要肩負大任我剛剛特別提到了很多司改的措施他其實是有時候會相互抵消譬如說剛剛提到簡化一些相關的程序卻會影響人民的訴訟權那這個保障人民訴訟權那這個嚴格化各式樣的程序卻會造成法官的過勞那因此我認為我上任第一件要做的事情就是將過去的司改措施這些彼此抵消的部分做一個基於實證的檢討"},{"start":9911.883,"end":9940.369,"text":"所以我會在司法院召開這個司改的這個改革的評估推動的委員會那做一個跨平台的協作讓真的發揮效能的繼續去做但是需要去檢討用檢法的思維來做的也要能夠大力勇敢的去做那過去做不到的部分有一塊很重要的是強化人民受律師協助的權利現在有非常多的國家事實上會推動這個法律業務或法律風險"},{"start":9941.249,"end":9961.104,"text":"的相關的保險的保障讓人民這個除了能夠到法院之外他也能夠有更多的接受律師更多的接受一些相關的法律協助這樣的一個權利那這些都是我接下來未來能夠希望去推動的尤其這個我們現在的律師這個在六成以下"},{"start":9961.884,"end":9983.992,"text":"有6成都是40歲以下的年輕律師事實上他們年輕有這個活力而且能夠有很多這個新的方法跟思維來強化這個我國相關的這些人民受司法這個禁用的這些機會及權利那這些都是我將來能夠希望透過這個評估委員會的平台"},{"start":9984.292,"end":9986.234,"text":"施改的促進專業有效能獨立的司法絕對不會停止那我也會認為要加緊腳步趕快來趕上"},{"start":10000.131,"end":10027.685,"text":"我再次提醒被提名人張教授持續的司法改革跟提高人民對於司法的信任度將是你最嚴肅的一個挑戰以及你的責任那剛才也提到相關的簡化司法的程序當然我們就要來討論到優化司法程序的運作那其實在前院長許中立院長他任內他覺得他最大的遺憾就是沒有辦法"},{"start":10028.425,"end":10056.264,"text":"去推動訴訟程序精緻談話未能落實是他認為他自己擔任院長最大的遺憾那他也期望未來的院長是能夠持續朝程序訴訟精緻談話的方向走他最主要的用意是能夠希望有效的分配司法的資源減輕法官的一個負擔然後改善司法的環境來請你說明一下你的想法"},{"start":10057.565,"end":10068.775,"text":"謝謝委員我們本來中華民國憲法想像的司法院想像的司法是一個金字塔庭的訴訟程序不過多年來我們現在是一個有多元終審法院的水桶型的程序"},{"start":10069.315,"end":10092.967,"text":"那所以要改成金字塔型的訴訟程序非常的困難會涉及到限制人民的上訴權那以及等等反過來限制人民權利的問題加上對於法官基層法官他沒有一個有機會能夠到二審法院、中審法院去歷練這樣的一個制度性誘因所以改革並不容易那所以我可以體會徐院長在最後卸任的時候他的那個感嘆不過"},{"start":10094.028,"end":10121.77,"text":"因為我是受到美國法院實務的影響我能夠理解在這個金字塔形底下他必須要有能夠法院行政的相關配套那所以接下來我上任之後不管是在司法院所成立的這個委員會或者我剛剛特別提到的這個仿效美國所設立的這種專門委員會或者跟各法院的協作能夠比較有效的來擺脫過去我們在這些多元終審法院之下比較水桶型的設計的這些相關的問題"},{"start":10123.811,"end":10148.898,"text":"這個是我上任之後一定要勇敢來做的這個我就要更明確的來請教一下被提名人其實這個訴訟程序的這種精緻談話是從翁岳昇院長的時候他就在致力推動那許中立前院長也想要繼續的能夠讓他順利的完成相關的進度但是也成為他任內的一個最大的遺憾"},{"start":10149.918,"end":10162.819,"text":"我要明確的請教貝提名人你剛才有簡略的一個說明我希望你更清楚的說明你支不支持這種訴訟程序精緻塔話你的相關的理念是什麼"},{"start":10164.332,"end":10184.631,"text":"報告委員事實上訴訟程序的金字塔化不僅是好幾次司改的決議它其實本來也是我們中華民國憲法對於司法的想像跟設計大法官釋字530號解釋也明確的要求只是我們一直沒有能夠做到那沒有能夠做到最大的困難就是我們現在在大陸法系的這個程序設計底下"},{"start":10186.333,"end":10206.87,"text":"負審制與水桶型多元中審機關設計有關,中局改革需要幾個相關配套,這些相關配套的措施我會積極加以推行。貝提名長剛才提到相關輸送程序精緻談話未能落實的一個基本原因與學理,"},{"start":10208.188,"end":10221.46,"text":"我們現在就要請教說如何確保人民訴訟的權益之下我們來落實這樣的一個優化司法程序的這些運作的狀況來說明一下"},{"start":10224.275,"end":10240.954,"text":"謝謝這個要想要達到金字塔型的程序我們必須要能夠做到堅實的第一審換句話說第一審的判決他必須要能夠正確而且能夠有效的就已經達到權力救濟的目標不過我們現在在這一塊其實還沒有做得太好"},{"start":10241.454,"end":10270.125,"text":"那還沒有做得太好有很多的原因包括他的上訴那發回那以及這個下級法院有太多的案件那所以就這些部分他需要分區分塊就不同的案件類型來做設計而不能一次的統包的完全限制人民的相關的權利或者一次統包的就讓某些案件不能夠上訴那所以在這些具體的設計底下我相信"},{"start":10271.465,"end":10298.943,"text":"逐步的分區的分期的來推動應該可以有辦法把我們現在這個水桶型的多元終審的程序逐步的來加以調整我要更進一步請教貝提名你剛才有提到相關簡化不是簡化是優化司法程序的相關的運作你的一些基本的看法那你有什麼想要去推動去落實這樣的一個優化司法程序的具體做法是什麼"},{"start":10301.197,"end":10329.424,"text":"剛剛講到的除了我們涉及到訴訟法跟程序相關的設計之外還有一個能夠讓我們的法官專業效能很快的提升的就是委員可能知道我們現在各級法院都還在一個紙本的老時代那所以很多法官他深陷在非常非常多的紙本那我剛剛也特別有舉過一個例子那我在擔任刑事補償球場委員會的期間甚至看到我們從宜蘭到臺灣高院一個簡單的公文就要經過兩三個禮拜的公文旅行"},{"start":10329.924,"end":10352.045,"text":"那所以我目前上任之後具體要推動的對這些資訊系統的優化那案件管理的系統這個非常的重要目前法官常常在過去幾個不同階段的改革當中他一下用這個系統一下用那個系統造成很多法官對這些系統跟系統之間彼此的漢格非常的排斥甚至認為說他還是回到原來"},{"start":10352.685,"end":10352.805,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10373.76,"end":10389.438,"text":"律師、司法專業人員都有年輕化的趨勢所以我確實認為我們已經要到了一個法院2.0的時代當所有的人民都在用平板的時候我們的法院卻活在那個非常老舊的時代這個是必須要急需來加以改革的"},{"start":10390.305,"end":10410.677,"text":"剛才我們提到對於相關的司法的改革或是提高人民對於司法的信任度當然司法院是扮演重要的角色但是我們的法官更是扮演第一線最重要的一個工作但是我們的法官過勞的問題一直是社會大眾也逐漸在討論的一個議題"},{"start":10412.558,"end":10436.658,"text":"那我們法官案件的概況如果我們按照112年度司法院的統計聯報我們現在各級法院總共有2195位法官2195位法官他們各級法院一年新收的各類案件高達380萬件而且是逐年增加"},{"start":10438.513,"end":10463.704,"text":"法官變成一個高壓力、一個過勞的工作那法官原來人力雖然說要增加但是跟不上案件成長的這個速度那長期就是面臨高度的身心壓力那今年4月其實就發生了一件不幸的法官墜樓死亡事件也更引起社會大眾的關心跟討論"},{"start":10464.784,"end":10491.666,"text":"那司法院在4月17號有相關的檢討會議決議說要嚴厲法官合理的結案量放寬管考以及各法院研究報告採自由參加並且要持續推動這種濫訴防度的多項措施來紓解法官辦案的壓力但其實還是很難治本的"},{"start":10492.165,"end":10507.364,"text":"那其實你在被提名的時候8月30號你也有宣誓說你要去改善法官及基層司法人員的這種過勞的問題那我要請教你你具體的政策是什麼請說明"},{"start":10509.11,"end":10522.236,"text":"那個跟委員說明我剛剛在致辭的時候提出了三個方向那一個當然希望能夠拜託大院在包括我也會積極的跟我們行政部門協調是在法官的員額上我剛剛已經講到我們每10萬人只有9名法官"},{"start":10525.718,"end":10543.38,"text":"那在歐洲各國的中位數是22名法官那同時我們司法的支出我們這個人均的司法支出是1127元在歐洲的中位數是2240元那所以我們的資源跟人力其實大大的不足"},{"start":10543.8,"end":10544.32,"text":"司法院大法官"},{"start":10571.801,"end":10589.903,"text":"沒有辦法有效的往前走那第二個我剛剛特別提到除了這些司法院的資訊系統司法院的相關的這個辦案小工具等等還有一個很重要的也是這幾個月這個非常多的司法前輩告訴我的很多辦案經驗的傳承這件事情是非常重要的"},{"start":10590.403,"end":10619.567,"text":"這也是我了解到美國聯邦最高法院因為個別法官的獨立審判是不能夠被干預的但是法官的經驗是可以傳承的所以美國聯邦最高法院有一些專門委員會那透過四五個巡迴上訴法院法官跟非常優秀的地方法院的法官他能夠到各法院去協作能夠提出相關類型的案件那他可以有一個怎麼樣的辦案的方式跟技巧這些都可以大幅的提升"},{"start":10620.087,"end":10638.304,"text":"這個我們接下來這個法官的辦案的效能過去我們只仰賴司法官學院這個定期的舉辦一些比較被動式的這個講演式的這些講座這些是不足以讓我們年輕的法官多數的法官來提升他的專業效能所以必須要有一些具體的做法加緊來做"},{"start":10639.545,"end":10666.06,"text":"最後我們必須來討論一下我們謹慎要用於司法實務運作的這種生成式AI的人工智慧生成式AI的司法運用其實在2023年司法院就已經有發布司法院審慎發展生成式AI應用以撰寫刑事裁判草稿出示提升的新聞稿他們宣告已經完成開發這種生成AI的系統"},{"start":10667.521,"end":10694.671,"text":"自規化裁判草稿：自動生成系統：他們要事辦輔助法官就不能安全駕駛以及幫助詐欺兩類的案件草泥判決書2014年1月11號司法院法務部全國律師聯合會也舉辦生成式AI在法律實務之運用及對人權弱勢性別之挑戰相關的主題的進行研討"},{"start":10696.553,"end":10710.659,"text":"許中立前院長他也說在憲政主義的前提下生成式AI在審判實務的應用及挑戰要特別的注意相關的原則那我請教一下因為時間也不多你認為這種司法實務運用運用AI"},{"start":10713.652,"end":10726.357,"text":"已經是成為趨勢．你的看法是如何．而且如何確保相關的資訊安全．個人隱私、公務機密．如何維護人民在正當法律程序下．接受審判的前提下．合理而且審慎的運用．簡單說明"},{"start":10727.987,"end":10728.427,"text":"謝謝李委員謝謝貝提米人"},{"start":10756.431,"end":10759.712,"text":"下一位我們請葉元之委員詢問院長麻煩請被提名人"},{"start":10785.916,"end":10786.481,"text":"請張備提名人答詢"},{"start":10796.563,"end":10819.514,"text":"背題名人您好幾個問題想跟您請教一下第一個是南韓在上個禮拜的時候有宣布戒嚴嘛那後來我去看了一下我們其實我們憲法第39條其實也有相關戒嚴跟解嚴的規定他是講說總統可以依法宣布戒嚴但是要經立法院通過跟罪認立法院認為必要時可以依請"},{"start":10820.695,"end":10848.985,"text":"可以決議以請總統戒嚴那這是憲法的規定但是在我們的戒嚴法好像沒有針對憲法規定的非常的清楚譬如說我講南韓的狀況南韓後來能夠很快解嚴是因為他們的國會議員翻牆進入了國會趕快通過解嚴案然後總統後來宣布解嚴可是你看類似的狀況在我們的戒嚴法裡面並沒有很明確規定在我們的戒嚴法的第一條"},{"start":10850.425,"end":10869.717,"text":"講的是說總統如果宣布戒嚴一個月內提交立法院罪認而且在立法院休會期間應該於復會的時候再提交罪認換句話說如果南韓的狀況發生在台灣現在可能台灣還是戒嚴狀態但我覺得這個問題很嚴重是因為"},{"start":10872.561,"end":10891.501,"text":"當時南韓戒嚴的時候民進黨第一時間發出貼文他們非常肯定他們直接就講說尹錫悅是因為南韓的國會被北韓的勢力滲透所以尹錫悅為了要守護憲法自由所以才宣布戒嚴就是完全是採用尹錫悅的說法"},{"start":10892.822,"end":10912.251,"text":"感覺上就是好像他們也很認同這種做法所以萬一民進黨忽然間宣布戒嚴您覺得現在的法律我們的戒嚴法的規範有沒有違反憲法或者是說有沒有在憲法的部分並沒有講得清楚有修法的必要"},{"start":10913.083,"end":10927.375,"text":"跟委員說明目前中華民國憲法關於緊急的狀況的法制只有戒嚴跟緊急命令緊急命令的相關程序在過去憲法的增修已經有比較完善明確的條文但是憲法39條的戒嚴程序"},{"start":10931.778,"end":10954.215,"text":"那從這個過去到現在一直沒有任何的修改那也因為這樣子這個憲法就目前的文字事實上它是開放有一個立法形成的空間那對於立法的這個政策我作為司法的被提名人我就不辯保釋意見但它確實是不管是在憲法的增修或者是這個立法政策形成的空間"},{"start":10956.156,"end":10979.157,"text":"我相信戒嚴法的這個一個月的規定是因為在過去簽台之前簽台之後那我們的戒嚴法都沒有再有過任何的增修因為你看我剛剛就講戒嚴法第一條嘛他說在立法院休會期間應於復會時提交罪人那所以男孩子的情況假設是發生在台灣然後是在休會期間其實台灣他並不會在立刻他沒有一個機制可以立刻戒嚴"},{"start":10980.74,"end":10985.282,"text":"憲法第39條的規定他說總統依法宣布戒嚴需經立法院通過或追認"},{"start":11002.442,"end":11016.102,"text":"所以在憲法所規定的這個條文文字的範圍內事實上並沒有去規範立法院通過或追認的時間這個是憲法條原給予大院的一個形成跟作為的空間"},{"start":11017.223,"end":11030.04,"text":"所以大院其實事實上也不需要受到戒嚴法第1條的拘束大院如果覺得有立即採取憲法上相關行為的需要事實上也不受是在憲法第39條的規範範圍內的"},{"start":11033.224,"end":11054.976,"text":"您剛問的比較是說一個月的這個部分那至於期間的問題事實上很明確的是憲法第39條授權立法院政策形成的空間所以立法院如果說想要和韓國一樣假設總統隨便亂戒嚴然後我們要有一個很緊急的狀況去戒嚴的話就是修改戒嚴法讓他變得更明確一點"},{"start":11055.956,"end":11068.821,"text":"我們當然不希望能夠遇到戒嚴不過這個確實是立法院做立法政策、修法行程因為我有看到民進黨的人說怎麼能不修就不修我聽起來是蠻害怕"},{"start":11071.362,"end":11073.063,"text":"法學專家跟您請教一下"},{"start":11101.142,"end":11122.142,"text":"好 第二個問題想跟您請教一下在我們的憲法增修條文第10條的第6點他說國家應維護婦女之人格尊嚴保障婦女之人身安全消除性別歧視促進兩性地位之實質平等最近發生一件事情有一個人對著另外一個女性講說"},{"start":11123.724,"end":11144.481,"text":"你穿的這麼暴露你的外套裡面只有運動內衣你是不是要故意碰瓷啊什麼意思呢就是說你是不是故意有人碰到你之後你就要講人家性騷擾你我想問一下被提名人你覺得這樣子的一個對女性說出這樣的話有沒有違反性別歧視有沒有"},{"start":11145.697,"end":11169.389,"text":"那個委員的提問當然我剛剛都一直在說你作為司法被提名人我就不便對於個案做出我們問的是價值嗎因為如果是這樣子的話什麼都不用講了對我要特別說明的是這個性騷擾防治法跟我們在教育工作領域的這些性別平等的相關的法規其實從過去到現在已經有非常長足的進步"},{"start":11170.129,"end":11198.949,"text":"那過去幾年國外也有非常多的MeToo的運動那增修條文這一條事實上曾經在大法官做過解釋認為大法官這個強調人格尊嚴的這個部分尤其必須要從人格尊嚴的角度來保障這個性別在各個場域的受到尊重那我剛剛就問說如果有人指控另外一個人說你穿著運動內衣你是不是想要碰瓷故意陷害別人騷擾你這有沒有"},{"start":11199.758,"end":11227.903,"text":"陷害到那個被指控的人的人格尊嚴我想無論是任何的個案我們都必須要這個從您剛正確指出來的憲法增修條文第10條第6項這個從保障任何人每一個人的人格尊嚴的角度應該是有性別歧視吧因為我們不應該對一個女性講說你穿什麼衣服你就是特別什麼目的嘛如果有人講說你穿迷你裙你是不是想要勾引男人"},{"start":11228.666,"end":11253.408,"text":"你覺得這樣有沒有性別歧視?有吧?委員這個是絕對不可以的那如果講說你穿著運動內衣你就是要碰瓷你就是有目的你就是要等到男生碰到你的時候你要去指控人家騷擾你這有沒有性別歧視?有嗎?我不知道說這個不是價值為什麼這麼難回答過於閃避了啦其實沒有必要過於閃避啦"},{"start":11253.933,"end":11282.227,"text":"因為沒有就是謝謝委員的提醒不過我剛剛已經講過我們的這個性別相關的法規已經有非常長處但是因為憲法說國家應該要維護可是剛剛我講那個指控另外一個人穿運動內衣然後去碰瓷的指控別人的那個人他是一個國會議員所以國家憲法直接規定說國家要維護婦女人格尊嚴消除性別歧視但是我們的國會議員居然指控另外一個女性的國會議員說"},{"start":11284.961,"end":11300.283,"text":"你穿運動內衣是為了要碰瓷別人你覺得我們這個國家做得夠嗎憲法直接規定要做但是在國會的殿堂憲政機關立法院裡面居然有國會議員做這樣的事你覺得我們國家做得夠嗎"},{"start":11301.459,"end":11301.779,"text":"第三個問題跟您請教一下"},{"start":11323.214,"end":11339.924,"text":"我們先把第11條有說人民有言論、講學、著作及出版自由當然也包括新聞自由但我現在就想要問的是我們有一家台灣本來有一家中天電視台啦後來被NCC關台了你覺得這個做法有沒有侵害到新聞自由委員您知道作為司法被提名人我不能夠評論個案不過新聞自由的保障當然是非常重要以後DG開場白可以檢閱啦"},{"start":11353.387,"end":11354.768,"text":"那NCC關中天這件事情你覺得他有審慎嗎?"},{"start":11377.025,"end":11397.612,"text":"因為我秀出這個圖給你看嘛因為當初NCC關中天有一個理由是說中天常常被檢舉常常被裁罰但常常被檢舉我不知道為什麼可以構成一個理由啊如果可以構成理由的話假設今天大家很討厭一家電視台你只要發動群眾去檢舉他他就會收到很多檢舉嘛所以換句話說收到檢舉不應該是"},{"start":11400.024,"end":11414.795,"text":"他要關一家電視台的一個理由之一啦這個理由是完全不能夠當作理由第二個就是NCC講說中天因為被裁罰很多可是你看喔這邊列出來中天後來有針對11個被裁罰的案子去上訴"},{"start":11415.996,"end":11443.161,"text":"結果目前為止有三件就是第三點、第五點、第六點這三件已經定宴了行政法院已經確定中天勝訴另外有八件還沒有定宴但是一審、二審通通都中天都是勝訴但問題是現在來了當時NCC講說這家電視台不OK因為你常常被罰可是當初你裁罰人家最後都被法院推翻認為你濫罰可是問題是這家電視台已經在"},{"start":11445.774,"end":11453.979,"text":"有限電視頻道上面看不到被提名的你不覺得這是NCC對於新聞自由一個很大的殘害嗎?"},{"start":11456.926,"end":11478.938,"text":"法院在判斷新聞自由受到限制的這些個案必須要非常審慎要依據憲法法庭說法院還是NCC我說法院因為那個報告委員我畢竟是這個法院的提名人所以我們在這裡可以看到法院是非常審慎的但因為憲法是人民權利的保障書嘛"},{"start":11479.638,"end":11495.254,"text":"當然也包括新聞自由跟言論自由那憲法最主要為什麼叫人民權利保障書因為要防止行政權侵害人民嘛那NCC就是行政權所以我今天談的是行政權所以這件事情我想要問您的看法啦"},{"start":11496.004,"end":11516.966,"text":"就是如果說我們的政府機關因為不喜歡人家電視台就可以巧立名目說你因為你被檢舉太多或者是說哎呀你常常被裁罰可是問題是這些裁罰最後都被證明說是濫罰那這樣到底有沒有侵害言論自由侵害新聞自由美國是最重視新聞自由的"},{"start":11517.657,"end":11542.068,"text":"美國有一個開國元勳講說如果有報紙而無政府或者是有政府而無報紙他將毫不遲疑的選擇有報紙而無政府意思是說新聞自由是非常重要的一件事情新聞自由是民主政治的基石他們認為說你如果侵害到新聞自由的話其他的自由都沒有辦法保障"},{"start":11543.192,"end":11562.112,"text":"因為輿論的重要嘛但我們政府不是啊我們政府是你一直批評政府監督政府給你裁罰裁罰濫罰之後呢再告訴你說因為你被罰很多所以我要把你關掉你覺得以事後來看我們的政府有保障到新聞自由嗎"},{"start":11563.611,"end":11581.337,"text":"你要站在憲法是人民權利的保障書這個角度去看這個事情我們的新聞自由有被保障嗎所以委員我剛剛提到說新聞自由的保障非常重要大法官認為限制新聞自由要用最嚴格的審查標準那怎麼辦那現在已經台灣已經現在新聞自由已經被侵害了那有什麼救濟管道嗎"},{"start":11581.857,"end":11611.076,"text":"行政權限制新聞自由的部分法院當然也要秉持剛剛所講的這個原則來做審查跟決定所以這個是在我所領導下的法院那即使所有法官依據憲法法律獨立審判也一樣會對新聞自由的限制做嚴格審查其實從您的談話裡面因為你講都比較閃躲我不曉得我這樣歸納對不對就是說你認為確實這個行政權好像有侵害到新聞自由但是法院一定會做最後一道防線"},{"start":11612.431,"end":11636.801,"text":"如果要限制新聞自由,一定會做最嚴格的審判來保障,您的意思是這樣嗎?是,我沒有閃躲法委員的問題作為司法被提名人,這個是我自己認知到的回答方式謝謝您,算是蠻有道德勇氣講出這句話但我想問,現在中天已經被關掉了,好幾年了他的權利被侵害怎麼辦?"},{"start":11638.482,"end":11646.095,"text":"因為我們至少有3年是在電視有線頻道上看不到中天那怎麼辦有任何的救濟方式嗎"},{"start":11647.657,"end":11648.918,"text":"我現在其實從頭到尾都是肯定法院"},{"start":11675.714,"end":11692.773,"text":"都蠻一致的嘛我現在講的是行政權侵害新聞自由這塊對但是報告委員因為作為司法被提名人就這個部分我沒有辦法行政權的行使然後再來齁我跟你請教一下另外一個就是剛剛也有很多委員問的死刑的問題因為廢死這個議題在我們台灣算是一個"},{"start":11694.909,"end":11713.64,"text":"大家很關注的話題那您曾經在2014年台灣死刑報告裡面有篇文章那你是主筆嘛那大家看完這個之後都覺得說好像您的立場就是覺得必須要完全廢死那我不知道說這樣對您的判斷是有正確嗎"},{"start":11715.305,"end":11737.237,"text":"我剛剛有回答過另外一個委員事實上是不正確的這個臺灣死刑報告是在我國國內法化兩公約之後那因為英國人權團體那到亞洲國家去檢視在公正公約第6條國內法化之後那對於死刑的科處以及相關的執行以及他的實體跟程序要如何加以來適用"},{"start":11738.177,"end":11762.663,"text":"所以我剛剛特別說明這個報告當中其實有許多的個案用我們今天的標準那我們也一樣會認為這個不管是它程序上的缺漏包括其中有一個個案是監察院已經認定當初的過程有行囚那另外就是早年沒關係我只是確認你的立場而已所以你的立場是說有一些個案你覺得要不能用死刑但是你沒有說台灣社會不能有死刑是這樣子嗎?是這個意思?"},{"start":11763.206,"end":11784.363,"text":"在這個報告裡頭確實是,然後同時憲法法庭的裁判也是如此所以你對於死刑的態度,你並沒有說主張要廢死?沒有?沒有?還是你主張廢死?我能夠做的是遵守憲法法庭的裁判因為提名人未來,你現在也有可能啦,如果通過審查就成為大法官"},{"start":11785.205,"end":11811.582,"text":"那如果也有人去申請釋憲然後又是跟死刑相關的議題啊您會覺得死刑是違憲嗎?或者是說因為憲法法庭第8號判決您認同嗎?因為他們是名義上是沒有廢死啦但是實際上訂了很多關卡嘛讓死刑的執行非常困難所以我們都講他是實質廢死啦那您的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":11812.375,"end":11837.684,"text":"委員死刑這個議題然後包括這次大法官憲法法庭的裁判其實已經對我們的社會的討論造成了很多的分裂所以作為這個將來的審判長的被提名人那我必須要做的是就是對目前已經這個生效的憲法法庭的裁判那他的第一句第一段話就是認為目前在我國的死刑是核限的"},{"start":11838.064,"end":11863.376,"text":"但是在程序跟實體上那需要做很尖閣的使用這個是我必須要遵守那我剛剛也回過了我回過打過前面委員的問題是說在這樣的基礎上那個我認為我們司法裁判的穩定性必須要加以維持其實從上一次大法官對死刑做成相關的裁判我時間快到了你的立場是什麼因為我還有別的問題我必須要"},{"start":11863.956,"end":11865.298,"text":"你的判斷嘛,你的價值嘛你認為死刑應不該廢嘛"},{"start":11878.513,"end":11906.093,"text":"我的判斷跟價值是認為我們憲法跟法治裁判的維持比我個人的信念還要來得更重要你的信念是什麼生命權要加以保障被害人的生命權要加以保障被害人人權應該加以保障但是被害人人權不應該保障到去侵害到加害人的人權我不知道說這個被提名的人你有沒有看到那種受害者的家屬每一次聲嘶力竭的所台灣的刑法"},{"start":11907.674,"end":11935.289,"text":"根本就沒有無期徒刑因為無期徒刑最後都會假釋變有期徒刑真正受無期徒刑的都是這些被害人的家屬因為他們一輩子都要受到這種傷痛所以我覺得在法律上面為什麼大家不能夠接受廢死當然就是因為每次好像都過於的保障加害人人權可是那被害人人權啊所以不知道貝提名你的看法是怎樣我看起來好像你沒有要正面回答這個問題"},{"start":11936.718,"end":11959.233,"text":"那接下來再跟你請教一下有一個在有一個之前是蠻多學生在討論的一個話題就是您曾經在學校出了一個題目說好像有一個學生利用假日期間到學校去做了一個抗議活動然後結果後來這個學生被學校處分了寄兩大過處分然後後來這個學生"},{"start":11961.263,"end":11965.204,"text":"委員這個根據後來做的憲法解釋跟憲法裁判學生是可以獲得救濟的可以獲得救濟理由是什麼"},{"start":11990.595,"end":11991.336,"text":"好,謝謝葉委員。謝謝張北提名人。"},{"start":12013.524,"end":12032.965,"text":"報告全院委員會．對司法院大法官．並為院長被提名人張文貞．尋答部分．到此為止．謝謝張被提名人文貞列席答詢．下午2點30分繼續開會．進行對司法院副院長．被提名人姚立明之詢問．現在休息"},{"start":21647.27,"end":21664.103,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會今天下午審查司法院大法官並為副院長被提名人姚立明之資格及是否事任相關事項現在請被提名人姚立明先生說明時間為10分鐘"},{"start":21678.68,"end":21707.401,"text":"主席、各位委員平安關於我的自傳跟學經濟資料在提名的時候在被提名的時候已經送到大院在這裡我想針對我個人的憲法專業跟政治經驗與大法官的關係做一些簡單補充的說明大家都知道憲法不但是根本大法具有最高性憲法還有強烈的政治性"},{"start":21709.503,"end":21734.763,"text":"強調憲法是一部政治法不是指大法官可以任憑自己的政治傾向或者是價值來解釋憲法而是大法官解釋憲法的時候不論是針對人權條款還是組織不能單就憲法文字來做理解而是必須考量各個國家實際的政治發展狀況"},{"start":21737.145,"end":21763.602,"text":"因為憲法法庭既是法院也是憲政機構作為一個法院憲法法庭必須遵守嚴格的訴訟程序這個意味著裁判不能夠隨多數少數意見而更改這跟立法院一決法律是完全不一樣他必須要應得多數少數意見而更改的"},{"start":21765.376,"end":21789.699,"text":"憲法法庭既然是一個法院．就不會是一個民意代表機構．所以它不受民意拘束．也不對選民負責．而且只能被動的因為訴訟請求而行動．不像立法院或總統．對於針對政治問題．可以主動的來採取行動．而憲法法庭同時也是一個憲政機構．"},{"start":21791.929,"end":21808.124,"text":"是憲法參與權力監督與制衡的一份子他的決定一定具有一定的政治影響力而且會影響他跟其他憲政機構或者其他權力機關之間的關係"},{"start":21811.113,"end":21837.886,"text":"當然作為一個憲政機構 憲法法庭一方面必須將他的決策 侷限於憲法爭議上而且必須在憲法面前證明他的合理性而不像立法院 他的決策必須在選民面前證明他的合理性但因為他被憲法賦予制衡政治運作的功能 譬如說制衡多數決"},{"start":21839.793,"end":21866.173,"text":"也常常會被動的參與實際權力之間的政治爭議就是因為憲法法庭具有法庭跟憲政機構的雙重結構所以它不可能自外於政治這就是為什麼司法院主持法會把豐富政治經驗當作提名大法官的條件之一"},{"start":21869.113,"end":21893.635,"text":"立明因為長期參與公共事務特別是媒體工作所以我今天願意用新聞自由來說明我的政治經驗為什麼會成為我解釋憲法的幫助早期台灣新聞自由的侵害大多數是來自於黨政軍外部的干涉"},{"start":21895.134,"end":21918.644,"text":"不論是364號大法官解釋還是689號關於新聞裁判自由不能夠侵害個人的人身自由等等都是針對新聞外部自由的保障所做的解釋但是我國從威權轉型到民主體制以後"},{"start":21920.114,"end":21940.78,"text":"不論是傳統的報刊、廣播媒體或者是新興的有線電視網路媒體新聞自由來自外部的干涉已經逐漸地改善但是來自新聞內部的侵害簡單地說就是媒體擁有者"},{"start":21941.957,"end":21970.272,"text":"這是媒體老闆對所屬編載人員．編輯自由、報導自由的干涉．卻與日俱增．特別是涉及選舉或政治新聞．媒體擁有者常以自身的政治意識．強制要求所屬的新聞工作人員．跟他配合．使得憲法明文保障的新聞及言論自由．"},{"start":21971.803,"end":21996.639,"text":"沒有辦法至今無法成為新聞工作者的後盾反而成為媒體老闆的護身符這對未來中華民國民主政治的發展極為不利我自己專研憲法才深知憲法保障新聞自由是保障新聞工作人員的自由"},{"start":21998.902,"end":22027.793,"text":"我也因為參與公共事務才了解現在新聞媒體的環境跟內部運作的實際狀況我才能夠體認到目前憲法保障新聞自由還有一大塊沒有落實如果我們希望憲法保障的言論新聞自由的應然性規範落實在實然性的政治當中"},{"start":22030.899,"end":22053.945,"text":"我自己的政治經驗應該有助於未來相關新聞自由的解釋我當然可以再舉非常多的例子說明我自己參與公共事務對於我對憲法落實的理解我只是簡單的在說一個我參與大法官解釋的案例"},{"start":22055.293,"end":22080.85,"text":"三十多年前我參與人權協會做理事的工作我接到一個陳情案一位來自大陸老兵姓鄧他因為開放大陸探親在大陸的原配來台灣要撤銷他的台灣的重婚基於我的憲法專業我才會知道這個案子雖然在台灣三審定议"},{"start":22082.554,"end":22096.953,"text":"但是我知道憲法保障人民的婚姻自由權雖然憲法沒有明文規定所以我主動和一位律師聯絡當時大法官不允許不具備律師資格的人去申請大法官解釋"},{"start":22099.116,"end":22114.325,"text":"所以我就幫他來寫出一些申請狀促使大法官檢視我國憲法是否保護婚姻自由使大法官做出中華民國第一個有關婚姻的242號解釋"},{"start":22118.407,"end":22145.387,"text":"我只是人權條款我國憲法和所有的民主國家一樣80%的憲法條文都是組織編權力分立包含了權力分立基本原則地方自治與中央政府憲法跟政黨政治選舉的基本原則等等這些其實都是必須實際參與了解政治實務的人才能夠確實落實憲法條文"},{"start":22148.891,"end":22163.213,"text":"所以如果我們不能夠將靜態的憲法規範跟動態的政治現實結合就不可能做出一個讓各種憲政機構幸福的憲法解釋"},{"start":22165.421,"end":22189.676,"text":"立明自學生時候就接觸憲法立制專研這個領域在德國就拿修憲來作為論文的主題學成歸國以後我不但參與了解嚴、開放黨禁、暴禁、集會遊行的制定集會遊行法以至於90年代開始的修憲"},{"start":22191.448,"end":22219.445,"text":"我都受邀提供研究提供意見所以我自信能夠擔任事任的憲法解釋者我一生不求官有人質疑總統提名對我是一個仇傭可是大法官被提名需要一定的法定資格提名的程序就非常的繁複"},{"start":22221.087,"end":22243.943,"text":"更何況提名是需要經過立法院同意的大家都知道立法院現在民進黨沒有多數要通過不容易這麼崎嶇困難的一條路怎麼可以用酬庸來形容呢另外說立民不忠於政黨"},{"start":22245.66,"end":22262.884,"text":"不忠於特定意識形態這樣子說豈不就正好證明我只忠於專業忠於自己的良心的證明嗎這不正是大法官所需要的條件嗎我就是因為確信堅持專業與理想"},{"start":22267.557,"end":22292.43,"text":"用自身的憲法專業．豐富的政治經驗．可以讓憲法解釋更精緻的落實．我才接受總統的提名以上說明 敬請指教謝謝各位好 謝謝姚備提名人之說明現在進行委員詢問每位委員"},{"start":22293.835,"end":22301.547,"text":"尋答時間20分鐘才疑問疑答方式進行．輪到詢問委員如不在場．視為棄權．現在請邱委員議員詢問"},{"start":22323.769,"end":22329.439,"text":"謝謝主席副院長我是不是請一下姚立明先生我們請姚備提名人說明"},{"start":22339.603,"end":22354.373,"text":"姚老師我可以這樣稱呼您嗎?可以我想今天有這樣的一個機會參與司法院副院長的這樣的一個審查姚老師我想請教一下您喜歡棒球嗎?"},{"start":22356.05,"end":22371.825,"text":"你喜歡棒球嗎?你喜歡?所以我剛剛看到了您的口頭報告跟您自己的這個說明這個書面的說明我發現你應該是一個喜歡直球對決的人是不是這樣?你應該是喜歡直球對決嗎?來老師我這個是"},{"start":22375.287,"end":22400.183,"text":"在總統府的網站上面這個列了您的簡歷跟自傳那我看到總統府特別也提到了姚老師您被提名有一個比較重要的除了您致力研究憲法法學以外積極參與政治活動也是您被提名的一個重要因素之一那您的積極參與政治活動"},{"start":22402.845,"end":22426.917,"text":"也成為了您在這一次的審查過程裡頭被外界提出來討論的地方我大概稍微簡單的整理了一下姚老師您的過去的經歷從1986年您在學校任教1996年開始您擔任了立法委員這個時候您的政黨是新黨"},{"start":22428.519,"end":22445.699,"text":"2000年您回到學校任教2006年你擔任了百萬人民導扁運動總部的副總指揮到2007年你被紅黨也就是臺灣人權聯盟列在不分區立委的名單2012年開始"},{"start":22448.476,"end":22475.284,"text":"您的政黨態度似乎有一點轉換2012年您支持小英來參選總統並擔任小英教育基金會的董事2014年您去支持了柯文哲先生競選台北市長到了2023年您出任賴清德先生的競選總部主任委員這樣的資料整理沒有錯吧?沒有"},{"start":22477.184,"end":22506.184,"text":"老師您剛剛有在你最後有特別講很多人看到你的這個政治的從政經歷認為你是變色龍有人是這樣說有人認為你從新黨然後到紅黨或者是到了民進黨這個中間的過程轉換我其實不想用變色龍來形容你但是您剛剛有講到您是忠於你自己的專業忠於您自己的良心"},{"start":22507.745,"end":22508.866,"text":"容我用最簡單的台灣政治最大的兩岸關係來說好了"},{"start":22533.066,"end":22558.986,"text":"我第一次當選立法委員大概是唯一中華民國一次國家特別公佈了一個行政命令那個時候連站做行政院院長不讓當選的新黨的立法委員請假也就是一般所謂的戒掉也就是我必須要離開學術界否則我根本不會離開學術界當時我受王健宣邀請"},{"start":22560.489,"end":22588.823,"text":"去參與我根本沒有計劃要參與的選舉高雄縣你也知道我連台語都說不好怎麼可能到那個地方選舉可能那個地方沒有人因此我受邀去選舉我當然就參與了然後就沒有回到學術界所有的人都認為從當時的兩岸主張新黨當時我記得非常清楚標誌的就有反共"},{"start":22590.302,"end":22619.327,"text":"等等等等反台獨等等的一些標誌非常清楚保衛中華民國如果各位記得的話在李登輝先生後來我就沒有回到學院一段時間後來因為人家邀請我到文化大學在任教我就說明我那時候就開始進入公共事務不是我個人願意是國家當年唯一的一次一個學者像現在我相信很多學者做立法委員做完了還可以回到學校我當時不可以"},{"start":22621.598,"end":22648.396,"text":"所以我就參與了可是如果各位想一想我如果舉一個例子國民黨的有些政治人物在李登輝講兩國論的時候替兩國論來辯論直到今天講到九二共識的時候替講到九二共識來辯論我個人認為我不會這樣做因為當時我離開新黨很重要的一個原因如果新黨還記得我提出了一個一中兩國理論"},{"start":22651.722,"end":22674.538,"text":"這兩個國家理論的概念非常簡單就是中華民國我們沒有一個人能否認重點是我們承不承認中華人民共和國等李登輝廢除了臨時條款以後廢除了把中國當作叛亂團體之後他當然就從我們的角度上是一個國家"},{"start":22675.689,"end":22694.397,"text":"換句話說從李登輝時代以後我認為兩邊是一個兩國關係我從來沒變過所以我當然後來因為新黨不支持我這個主張甚至於連辯論都不能辯論因為那個過程很複雜我就離開了這就是我到今天為止我沒有改變過"},{"start":22699.059,"end":22717.485,"text":"所以到今天為止您心中認定的是中華民國沒有錯我認為中華民國沒有人可以否認嘛所以你沒有所謂的你沒有所謂變色的問題沒有問題啊因為中華人民共和國沒有錯中華人除非你認為中華人民共和國是個叛亂團體你才是一個中國"},{"start":22718.672,"end":22739.045,"text":"只要認為中華民國因為中華民國不是我們討論的對象因為我們是人民只有中華人民共和國是什麼才是一個我們要面對的憲法問題它要不然就是叛亂團體要不然它就是一個被我們接受的國家承認的國家所以當然是兩個國家這我從此以後從來沒有改變這個論述"},{"start":22740.947,"end":22749.805,"text":"後來參與所有的團體我大概這個論述都是我的基礎也就是我一再強調所謂的兩國不是針對中華民國來討論因為中華民國沒有人可以討論"},{"start":22751.01,"end":22751.03,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":22772.879,"end":22798.853,"text":"這個姚老師我想您的這個部分說明得非常清楚那我也更進一步的去了解您從以前到現在的政治傾向講到這個叛亂團體最近大概戒嚴這件事情很多被討論今天是世界人權日也是美麗島事件45週年老師我讓您看一下"},{"start":22800.442,"end":22823.297,"text":"國民黨戒嚴38年那在上個禮拜五有國民黨的委員說當初的戒嚴是為了要保護台灣我當然不同意這樣的一個論述我也不知道老師您同不同意這樣的一個論述但是您過去參與這麼多的人權運動甚至您曾經代表台灣人權聯盟要擔任立法委員這個是1952年"},{"start":22826.618,"end":22848.669,"text":"周清蓮的案子當時蔣介石並不滿意這樣的判決大筆一揮就把它改為死刑這個是徐慧芝的匪諜案蔣介石對於徐慧芝被從5年改判10年非常的不滿意所以直接批示應即槍決可也"},{"start":22850.851,"end":22869.181,"text":"依據行政院促轉這個正義委員會的統計戒嚴時期蔣介石介入了判決大概有4101次有259人因為蔣介石的介入而改判死刑"},{"start":22870.682,"end":22882.234,"text":"當時是沒有人權的當時是在戒嚴時期所以當時的蔣介石盼你生你就生盼你死你就死這是完全沒有人權可言的到現在"},{"start":22883.752,"end":22903.005,"text":"我們在談人權在談國安在談共諜老師您剛剛講了很多跟中華人民共和國您的不認同的地方我想進一步請教您就法律上來說到底國家安全哪一個輕哪一個重"},{"start":22905.789,"end":22929.321,"text":"這個呢都是最近幾次的新聞我們的前金房部的參謀長因為貪了部隊7900多塊的洗衣機被重判12年二審改判6年8個月這一位韓玉萍少將因為把國防部的加菜金拿去驗請軍券被判貪污罪4年4個月後來經過小英總統特赦"},{"start":22935.702,"end":22940.348,"text":"這個是我們稍微整理一下臺灣這幾年來﹐跟間諜案有關的判刑狀況﹐包括邊棚這個中將的共諜案﹐"},{"start":22948.131,"end":22973.425,"text":"他有主觀的犯意他的犯罪組織網也都建構了但是他只被輕判了6個月右邊這一張圖可以整理了更多最近幾年間諜案的判刑狀況老師我知道您長期研究法律就您看這樣子的一個法律判決貪7900多塊的洗衣機要被判6年"},{"start":22976.121,"end":22982.343,"text":"這當然也涉及到我們的立法是不是要針對兩岸有關的一些行為做一些整體的規範我必須承認"},{"start":23001.324,"end":23024.802,"text":"對於我很晚的時間我才對於臺灣戒嚴時間的不公正因為我自己的生長背景我從來沒有認識到228我甚至於不知道林義雄家裡的慘案也是228直到紅山軍我因為演講的關係被施明德邀請參與他的一個小組"},{"start":23026.36,"end":23054.393,"text":"慢慢的我才了解到過去的許許多多的故事所以我有差不多有三年的時間我很專心的在檔案局就像你剛才所印的有一些資料我非常仔細的去尋找有關過去那幾十年的戒嚴跟動人開亂時期的一些故事我才慢慢自己學習到過去因為我自己沒有體會過"},{"start":23056.124,"end":23064.399,"text":"這在新黨期間我從來沒有認識到這段故事也因為那段我就知道政府政府"},{"start":23065.58,"end":23093.605,"text":"如果錯誤的措施是可以傷害非常大的人民包括我曾接觸到一個韓信的一個校官他只是因為家裡頭跟他的同僚吃飯說反攻大陸根本機會不大他就被判因為叛亂罪而死他的媽媽甚至於改姓不讓他女兒知道他跟這個父親有關我們聯絡到這位女兒以後"},{"start":23095,"end":23123.122,"text":"痛哭流泣我自己深深的感受到原來社會因為不公不義的判決所影響可以是一個家庭或一個人的一生所以我對於剛才你所說的這些我當然覺得我們也許應該在一個民主法治時代要認真的思考各種不同的傷害國家安全也好傷害個人也好不同的罪責"},{"start":23124.643,"end":23152.083,"text":"有一個社會的基本價值的反應來保障我們憲法所需要保障的各種權利這一點我當然不能夠具體的太詳細的說明我的建議曾經有一個律師好像連司法律師他說法官普遍缺乏國安意識您同意這句話嗎如果就我剛剛舉的這些例子來說曾經有幾位律師他們認為法官普遍缺乏國安意識"},{"start":23153.104,"end":23176.552,"text":"所以就您在司法改革上面來看是不是我們應該要在對於法官的國安意識這一方面去做一些加強呢這點我不敢下結論太快下結論我真的不敢因為我的確接觸這種判決或理解法官現在的理解可是我非常清楚知道"},{"start":23178.302,"end":23204.041,"text":"憲法對於國家忠誠義務有不同層次的保護我舉軍人為例軍人的生命權保護跟我們不一樣軍人可以受命令喪失他的生命權尤其在戰時他的生命權的界限跟我們是不同保護界限不同因此對於軍人就有特權給予他特別的待遇"},{"start":23204.801,"end":23230.876,"text":"因為他的生命權的限制在各種層次是不同的同樣的道理你剛特別提到對於國家安全我們國內有非常多的公務人員不管是勤制人員不管是工人都有忠誠義務我絕對相信的忠誠義務是有不同層次的也許基於這些不同層次法律應該做不同的規範做不同的層次這一點也許可以給"},{"start":23231.937,"end":23245.518,"text":"所以姚老師我覺得我們過去在談很多的所謂的司法改革我們剛剛講到對於國安的層次其實他是有很多不同層級的判決吧那我們剛剛舉的這一些例子"},{"start":23248.092,"end":23267.184,"text":"這個貪小便宜重判危害到國家安全侵犯這很顯然這罪責不相當啊我覺得如果未來您有機會擔任司法院的副院長我想在司法改革的這一塊是不是應該要持續來做努力您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":23268.384,"end":23293.449,"text":"當然司法改革這塊是個大塊還有幾十項都還在進行中這個我們把它我的簡報上面把它羅列我們現在還有十項小英總統推動司法改革到現在也將近十年的時間但我相信其實還有很長一條路要走那這個應該也要列為您未來如果有機會擔任司法院副院長的時候司法改革這一塊也是您的一個重要的責任之一吧應該是的來"},{"start":23296.806,"end":23317.573,"text":"那再談到大法官的職權這個姚老師我們知道現在憲法訴訟法在立法院或者是在全國引起非常多的討論那國民黨的翁曉琳委員也提出了憲法訴訟法的修正草案"},{"start":23318.453,"end":23340.947,"text":"老實講這個總統府在8月底的時候就送出了大法官的這一些提名人的資料正常來說立法院應該在10月份10月底以前就要完成這些審查到現在12月了我們還在進行這個審查的過程所以現在的大法官是有不足的狀況"},{"start":23342.108,"end":23366.369,"text":"那國民黨的翁委員提出了這樣的一個憲法訴訟法的修正案在法界引起了非常多的討論包括11月16號由過去的大法官也特別站出來認為這一項修法其實是違憲如果他還在擔任大法官的話他認為這會是違憲姚老師我想請教您的看法"},{"start":23368.303,"end":23391.492,"text":"憲法訴訟法如果修正把大法官現有總額定義為憲法增修條文所定的總額15個人可能會造成憲法法庭經常因為沒有辦法湊足人數而無法做成判決當然一定會扭曲一定會扭曲憲法法庭作為憲政機關的憲法設計最危險的是什麼"},{"start":23395.182,"end":23418.688,"text":"最危險的是因為人數不足沒有辦法釋憲傷害最大的會是人民的釋憲權因為現在大法官的案件90%以上都人民申請的如果不能開會解釋違憲審查對於人民的憲法權力保護是一個傷害更何況我如果講的極端一點"},{"start":23419.966,"end":23447.138,"text":"其實沒有憲法法院的經常性的審查權力最大的不是立法院是行政跟總統因為行政機關擁有最大的資源跟權力他如果我舉例來講立法院通過了法律總統根本不公佈行政院也不執行立法院如果沒有違憲審查"},{"start":23451.695,"end":23475.645,"text":"誰來遏止行政機關對立法機關的濫權所以不只是立法院我希望當然我不能針對貴院的立法討論的內容可是我必須要提醒削弱憲法法庭的功能不是有利於立法院淩駕於行政權剛好相反"},{"start":23476.405,"end":23485.851,"text":"所以姚老師您講到的一個重點這個修法很顯然就是要削弱憲法法庭那對於您個人的部分因為我現在時間只剩下43秒對於您個人的部分您覺得現在大家一直猛烈的攻擊啦您覺得您過關的可能性如何"},{"start":23506.625,"end":23511.287,"text":"當然會可是我不是因為我個人我用詩篇因為當時我為什麼接受因為我完全清楚我所面對的通過了機率其實是很小的我當然心知肚明"},{"start":23534.229,"end":23541.592,"text":"可是當時我自己讀聖經的時候 詩篇第11篇第1節給我一句話信考一你為什麼要叫他躲到林子裡面的背景是一個大胃王有人要逃到樹林裡去所以我因為這一句話我覺得既然我自己是解釋現場的專業我也願意接受不管結果如何盡心盡力"},{"start":23563.438,"end":23585.994,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員,也謝謝貝提名人下一位請王宏威委員詢問好,謝謝主席,請貝提名人請姚貝提名人答詢"},{"start":23593.595,"end":23609.765,"text":"姚老師好你好王委員不過呢我想在我正式的這個質詢之前呢我想針對剛才前一輪您回答邱毅英委員所提到的這個就是限訴法提到說事實上現在確實"},{"start":23611.266,"end":23630.784,"text":"在憲法法庭受理的來自於人民的憲法的釋憲案是9成以上98%但是我要補充但是我們事實上人民成功可以受理的成功比例只有3%不到而已"},{"start":23631.845,"end":23650.21,"text":"但是民進黨所釋憲尤其在上個會期國會改革案那麼他們的受理比率是高達百分之百這樣的差距這也就是為什麼我們在討論我們現在憲法法庭是不是能夠不受政治的影響"},{"start":23651.75,"end":23652.13,"text":"這個條文跟監察委員的條文也有一個獨立"},{"start":23673.342,"end":23688.055,"text":"的一個概念可是監察委員沒有後面那句話不受任何干涉我執行不受任何干涉的實務是如此當我被提名的那天我原來是參與大概有兩個重要的會議"},{"start":23689.176,"end":23693.417,"text":"接下來就是因為剛才您也特別提到因為這個事實上在我想我們包含黨團提供的問題"},{"start":23709.801,"end":23737.975,"text":"以及外界對於你提名大法官通常都會質疑你你到底是超越黨派呢還是政治變色龍剛才特別提到了就是你過去擔任立法委員是新黨的立法委員那麼也在這個2006年的時候參與了這個倒點行動那我想請問一下為什麼在你的這個"},{"start":23740.071,"end":23745.543,"text":"自傳裡面刻意去隱藏了這兩個經歷這兩個經歷應該算是非常重要的為什麼隱藏了"},{"start":23750.202,"end":23757.187,"text":"我沒有隱藏這兩個我那個在新黨時間擔任立法委員我從來沒有隱藏在你的自傳裡面在你提供你大法官就是給我們立法院的自傳裡面隱藏了這兩個非常重要的經歷然後我也再補充一下剛才這個被提名的人也特別提到比如說包含你之前是經過新黨提名擔任立法委員"},{"start":23778.723,"end":23806.839,"text":"但是後來呢種種理由您離開了新黨在2006年你參加了倒扁行動2007年參加了變成是紅黨的不分區立委的提名人剛才邱毅英委員也通通來補充你說確實但是同樣的你在2009年又接受新黨的推薦參與了補選這也是事實所以我要講的就是說老師我是用無黨無派來簽選的"},{"start":23808.139,"end":23830.731,"text":"對,但是是新黨推薦好,我現在要講的就是說為什麼外界會稱之你為政治變色龍比如說我們看到這些照片不管你是在新黨或者當時在施明德主席旁邊導扁行動或者當時柯文哲第一次參選臺北市長你是他的競選總幹事或者後來你又離開了"},{"start":23834.093,"end":23834.573,"text":"但是我想請問一下"},{"start":23860.493,"end":23869.781,"text":"施明德主席有變嗎?他的反貪腐有變嗎?同樣的現在的賴清德跟以前的賴清德有變嗎?有改變嗎?"},{"start":23873.035,"end":23875.537,"text":"何總理由讓你會因此而變來變去"},{"start":23902.655,"end":23905.196,"text":"李明一生不求官,對不對?而且你說怎麼可以把這一次提名當作酬庸呢?"},{"start":23928.909,"end":23955.316,"text":"姚老師啊我必須要很誠實的向你說明一個大法官能夠被提名就是一種愁容啊而且如果被提名完全沒有機會被通過那請問一下我想你也不用花時間來這邊我們也不用花時間來對你在做質詢好那所以我也給大家看一下所謂的一生不求官啊"},{"start":23957.346,"end":23979.725,"text":"例如說在當時您複選柯文哲擔任台北市長的時候因為當時我也在參選所以我印象極為深刻當時姚老師作為競選總幹事也說我不會入閣我不會求官但是呢當柯文哲擔任台北市長之後呢"},{"start":23980.649,"end":23987.419,"text":"我們柯文哲紀前總幹事沒有入閣：可是他的妻子楊芳玲出任了法務局長："},{"start":23988.51,"end":24015.629,"text":"同樣的後來你也離開了柯文哲包含你在你的資歷裡面你有寫到你去擔任小英基金會董事後來蔡英文她在當選之後同樣的也提名了您的妻子您的夫人姚芳玲作為監察委員當然啦那時候後來你又去幫忙了姚立明不是不是姚立明對不起啊姚文智"},{"start":24016.479,"end":24042.621,"text":"姚文綺敗了所以沒有官可以求沒有官可以給同樣的你再度的去幫忙了賴清德這一次賴清德提名你當司法院副院長所以姚老師不管你的自傳或者你的口頭報告我都把它看得很清楚啊所以我可以講說所謂一生不求官可是如果"},{"start":24043.502,"end":24057.586,"text":"我可不可以回應一下因為我舉柯文哲這一次好不好選完了以後他問我我當然就拒絕了就像你所說的我跟他說好了我不去的他就說那可不可以麻煩你太太來幫我忙我說這一點我不能決定"},{"start":24077.121,"end":24089.067,"text":"我回家才知道這跟我求官應該沒有關係吧他打電話跟我太太商量了半天我太太後來願意進到市政府做了兩年離開同樣的道理蔡英文"},{"start":24090.851,"end":24113.689,"text":"我從來沒有一天跟我本人聯絡過任何跟楊芳玲有關的事情是某甲某乙應該是我後來也許才知道是一位他的一個友人推薦因為芳玲曾經推薦給我們的蔡英文總統推薦給蔡英文總統跟我姚立明的我一個字都沒提過楊芳玲在蔡英文面前"},{"start":24114.605,"end":24143.454,"text":"那別的人推薦楊芳琳跟我你說你這樣子理所當然認為楊芳琳只要擔任監察委員、擔任法務都是姚立明的太太所以我就一定是推薦者這完全不是如此這點我可以提出很多的證據至少柯文哲那次邊上有人可以證明啊我給你的說明其實你這之前都已經說明過我剛講我當時擔任台北市議員而且那時候柯文哲當市長位當議員我非常清楚這一段但是"},{"start":24144.605,"end":24168.193,"text":"你的說法其實都是你確實當過柯文哲輔選之後而且讓他選贏了同樣的也是你在擔任小英基金會董事之後然後蔡英文勝選之後也就請你的夫人來當監察委員那我要特別講的就是為什麼在這一次當然這一次的七名大法官各有一些爭議啊"},{"start":24169.912,"end":24187.078,"text":"您可以看到 我不曉得你應該會注意到臺灣民意基金會在今年的9月份吧他做了一個調查他針對就是國人對於賴總統提名、姚立明出院司法院副院長和大法官的意見的一個傾向"},{"start":24189.219,"end":24199.868,"text":"結果做出來不贊成44%贊成34.4%其實大家也都知道其實台灣民意基金會你不能稱之為他是一個比較偏藍的一個民意機構"},{"start":24205.632,"end":24214.157,"text":"而他同一天也做出了一個民調就是支不支持賴總統請賈永傑擔任我們101的董事長當時是44%支持所以我要講的就是說姚老師你確實政治經歷很豐富所以"},{"start":24230.567,"end":24253.969,"text":"請問您啊,您被提名是根據我們司法院組織法哪一條而被提名的?第4條,最後一款,第6款叫做嚴寫法律具豐富政治經驗者生育卓著者,對不對?研究法學富有政治經驗生育卓著者"},{"start":24255.711,"end":24275.996,"text":"我認為你確實富有政治經驗一個人可以造王在輔選這麼多人都可以勝選這樣的經歷確實不多啦但是呢所謂的研究法學跟生育卓著我想在這邊就要有一些請教了"},{"start":24278.539,"end":24296.228,"text":"我們去查了您的相關的著作您的著作一共有38篇文章然後有6篇是跟憲法有關一篇跟刑法有關其他的都是跟一些政治學有關有沒有錯誤"},{"start":24298.032,"end":24307.213,"text":"沒有錯那您最後這38篇文章最後一篇最新的一篇大概是多少年前著作的"},{"start":24312.434,"end":24320.621,"text":"最新的是2015年您指導做事論文一共9篇最新的是2010年然後您任教中山大學、中山所、中國文化大學行管系但是在教育部的分類裡面他們都不是屬於法學科系"},{"start":24341.272,"end":24366.88,"text":"我來舉一個就是第12院司法院副院長蘇永清他的專書20本這是專書最新是2013年期刊100篇最新是2018年他的指導順勢論文81篇最新是111學年度他是政治大學法學院院長兼系主任"},{"start":24368.191,"end":24374.858,"text":"所以姚老師很多人認為你之所以能被賴清德提名為司法院的副院長"},{"start":24376.092,"end":24398.845,"text":"不是因為你研究法學而是你有豐富的政治經驗所以如果把你的學術的成就跟蘇永清的學術成就比較起來為什麼可以同樣的被提名為副院長司法院副院長這中間啊最大的差別就是一個賴清德你同不同意"},{"start":24399.745,"end":24422.105,"text":"這一點我不曉得賴清德為什麼特別找到我提名這一點他沒有說明他只是他特別推崇你不是他就是直接找到我來跟我說明白然後我說我要回家思考一段我特別提一個觀念政治系數不是法律系數有非常多的憲法教授"},{"start":24423.362,"end":24439.814,"text":"胡佛一生是憲法專業可是他是政治系政教如果按照我們現在的規範他更不能做大法官國民黨這次釋憲請的專家就是那個職權刑事法請的專家掌櫃美"},{"start":24440.708,"end":24467.88,"text":"他沒有在法律系任教過可是你們認為他可以做市縣的代表他不是大法官沒有讓他當大法官也沒有讓他當司法院副院長你們認為他去憲法專業才請他做鑑定人嗎所以我們國家我甚至於認為現行的中華民國的憲法有八成是組織偏權力分立的基本原則"},{"start":24470.461,"end":24493.035,"text":"政黨政治與憲法多數學習法律的人不見得會深入研究這就是為什麼我實際雖然我是研究憲法為什麼我在剛才口頭報告說明參與實際政治運作我能夠理解憲法裡面有關組織篇這次德國稱之為國家法"},{"start":24493.935,"end":24520.342,"text":"換句話說政治這一塊不是起法的人說民法刑法、刑訴法、民主法他特別專業的你在你的自傳裡面還有今天口頭報告都說明了很多你怎麼樣去參與一些憲法的研究還有推動釋憲那另外一個重要的問題你又有一個重要的title叫做國會觀察基金會董事長你做了多少年"},{"start":24521.209,"end":24538.497,"text":"我做了董事長我前面做執行長做了大概7年8年後來因為我做立委必須要離開因為這是利益衝突後來我又邀請回去做董事然後我慢慢又做了董事長剛剛換人吧"},{"start":24544.036,"end":24562.672,"text":"我知道你們董事長剛剛換人我要講的是因為在你的經歷裡面剛才秀應委員秀出總統府的網頁第一個就是說你是擔任國會觀察基金會董事長那我想請問這幾年國會觀察基金會做了什麼呢?"},{"start":24569.554,"end":24587.127,"text":"因為我要特別講我們這幾年其實政治是很多政治事件包括不管是選舉還有我們在上個會期的國會的改革法案也是吵得震天駕響可是我們國會觀察基金會非常安靜"},{"start":24588.388,"end":24588.508,"text":"No."},{"start":24607.236,"end":24624.623,"text":"零 什麼都沒有而且你上一次的評調在2015年做做完我大概知道我在這邊也不講為什麼後來你就不再對不起 評鑑2008年做立法委員評鑑後來你們不做了嘛我大概也知道其中原因我去打聽了"},{"start":24626.28,"end":24640.191,"text":"上一次的民調做了一個就是66.8%的人反對兩岸同屬一中2015年結束了也就沒有任何的一些行動所以我要請教姚老師"},{"start":24641.274,"end":24660.467,"text":"你一直用國會觀察基金會董事長作為你是在包含就是關心國政還有你還有這個包含你是為什麼你是司法院副院長提名人但是這段時間我真的不曉得你在做什麼"},{"start":24661.451,"end":24689.131,"text":"另外剛才特別提到我也喚醒您的記憶你的論文絕大多數都是30年前的著作所以呢其實您這幾年幾乎沒有再寫你講的比寫的多另外你國科會一般在做研究一定會去申請國科會的這個研究經費你一共申請了三件"},{"start":24690.233,"end":24711.392,"text":"分件也是在30年前另外你的自傳裡面你的報告裡面提到你對於憲法的貢獻包含你今天剛才站在那邊喔就剛才站在那邊你的口頭報告你再補充你對憲法有些什麼樣的貢獻同樣舉例30年前我剛才在下面"},{"start":24718.097,"end":24725.443,"text":"我可以說明嗎我忘記是在哪一年我應該在回國以後大概4年我就申請作為教授我寫了很多的論文"},{"start":24750.236,"end":24752.842,"text":"當時我是所裡頭的教授所裡頭全數通過院裡頭全數通過"},{"start":24756.161,"end":24783.633,"text":"送到學校因為我得罪了校長為什麼得罪校長因為我通過我自己草擬了學術校園民主的一個法案就是由系所教授來選系主任院長剝奪了校長的權利那個草案是我擬的也不是我主動教授來幫我請我幫忙我就你我就在校務會裡面來說明就通過了從此以後院長系主任就由教授來選校長非常生氣所以當"},{"start":24784.853,"end":24785.433,"text":"好,謝謝王委員"},{"start":24832.076,"end":24836.661,"text":"好,謝謝王委員、謝謝貝提米爾下一位請陳昭之委員詢問"},{"start":24854.009,"end":24859.014,"text":"謝謝主席,有請被提名人有請被提名人阿巡好,邀主委午安午安因為您最近的一個工作是賴清德總統進總的主委所以我稱呼您主委,可以吧?沒有問題吧?那個早就過去的事情"},{"start":24880.382,"end":24904.957,"text":"這是你最近的一個工作依照司法院組織法要提名為大法官必須符合特定的資格那這次賴總統提出了7位大法官當中有3位是法學研究員、兩位教授、一位法官而您很特別的是以副政治經驗者這個款別被提名"},{"start":24905.777,"end":24925.011,"text":"那在總統府送來的這個手冊當中．你的簡介是寫．對憲政體制、政黨體制及國會運作有豐富的論述．曾參與憲政改革．首忍政府體制．為跨越不同黨派的政治意見領袖"},{"start":24927.062,"end":24952.427,"text":"本席認為跨越不同黨派必須是跨出各黨派而且能夠促進社會溝通跟社會和諧而不是引起社會的對立並趨言附事哪裡有糖吃就去哪裡這不叫跨越黨派而是政治變色龍請問主委您同意嗎不同意"},{"start":24953.936,"end":24955.037,"text":"您曾經是先黨的立委,後來創立了紅黨,也就是台灣國民會議。"},{"start":24978.61,"end":25000.321,"text":"並競選不分區立委2012年擔任小英基金會的董事接著擔任柯文哲2014臺北市長競選總幹事去年則是擔任賴清德2024總統競選主委根據司法院的組織法第5條規定大法官必須超出黨派"},{"start":25001.341,"end":25020.457,"text":"沒有人否認你的政治經歷非常豐富參加過很多的黨派但是是不是能夠超出確實令人質疑我相信你很清楚本人是非常深綠的支持者但是綠不等於民進黨我支持的是臺灣應該是一個主權獨立的國家"},{"start":25025.299,"end":25025.519,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":25053.72,"end":25065.482,"text":"在你提供給立法院的自傳當中 寫到了你在哪裡出生爸爸媽媽是公務員 有四個兄弟姊妹還有一大串學經歷但我還是發現你漏掉了一個"},{"start":25066.974,"end":25069.094,"text":"紅山軍根本不是一個社會運動他不是什麼職務或title"},{"start":25096.209,"end":25122.423,"text":"我從來也不是是媒體賦予我一個副總指揮你有看到我你有看到我什麼時候開始跟施明德先生說要一個副總指揮的職務然後跟著在那裡活動沒有是因為我是在人權中間你一直是副總指揮你也從來沒有否認過對我不需要否認嘛因為他是想這樣子讓我在他邊上來提供他一些集會遊行的意見"},{"start":25124.884,"end":25143.637,"text":"所以我就被邀請,因為我原來跟他真的不熟悉嘛請聽到我提醒的時間,主委你之前在政論節目上指控柯文哲2014年政治先驚,申報作假我當時完全沒有參與,我不知道詳情但是我也發現,你似乎很容易跟帳目不清扯上關係你2006年發動紅山軍搗扁,募了很多錢"},{"start":25148.26,"end":25159.491,"text":"同樣也被指控帳目不清．請問是否有這件事．紅山中的帳目清不清楚．有沒有問題．那些木蘭的錢有沒有進到你口袋．請主委回答"},{"start":25160.928,"end":25166.871,"text":"紅山軍從來沒有帳目不清所有的餘款全部捐贈給4個不同的公益團體那是媒體有報導有我一致被紅山軍排除的你問你記得是誰指控紅山軍帳目不清嗎你記得嗎我不記得我根本不曉得是誰"},{"start":25185.424,"end":25191.77,"text":"指控紅三軍債務不清的就是當年的民進黨臺南市議員現任立法委員王定宇"},{"start":25193.251,"end":25195.812,"text":"我完全不知道這一段誰對他提告我也不知道"},{"start":25219.363,"end":25247.948,"text":"至少跟我無關請看右邊這張截圖當年你們提告王定宇他收到傳票還非常的驕傲沾沾自喜、洋洋得意在臉書上發文說罵施明德紅山軍是詐騙集團的案件要開庭囉但我這是我一樣照說不誤你還記得這個案件的結果嗎?不知道施明德紅山軍是上訴還是敗訴?我也不知道"},{"start":25249.355,"end":25277.932,"text":"什麼都不知道我完全沒有參與這件事情結果法院判決你們紅三軍的總幹事敗訴換句話說紅三軍是法院認證的詐騙集團而你就是詐騙集團的副首領很荒謬的就是當初被民進黨指為詐騙集團的副首領姚立明現在被民進黨的總統賴清德提名為大法官及司法院副院長而當初指控你的立委"},{"start":25278.952,"end":25307.297,"text":"現在跟你相見甚歡啊還合照搶著合照跟你打氣啊請問這是什麼世界啊請問發生了什麼事情啊照片立立為目啊總幹事主委您有什麼要回答的嗎我既不是總幹事我也沒有參與這件事情好抱歉你是主委你是競選總幹部主委我剛剛一直稱呼你主委我是什麼主委啊我是賴清德的主委賴清德競選總部主委我稱呼你主委對啊那我要問你說你這個"},{"start":25309.246,"end":25332.324,"text":"你對這個感覺的台灣人不錯惡嗎?當年被王定宇指控,還是你們還敗訴了?那個是...我剛才特別說了,王定宇指控紅杉磯這件事情我完全沒有參與,訴訟我也不知道。最後的敗訴是明明我們是...施明德有什麼才華不清楚,我也不清楚。"},{"start":25333.004,"end":25353.26,"text":"主委我如何回答呢主委來稍安勿躁前面提到你有很多政黨經歷你在2016年接受金週刊訪問時說過政黨又不是父母不像是我父親姓姚我就得姓姚我的核心價值沒有改變我信仰人權跟民主那是政治最核心的概念這是你自己說過的話沒錯吧對"},{"start":25355.742,"end":25383.152,"text":"總算有一個對的你承認的接下來我們來檢視這個關乎人權跟民主你所謂的核心概念的議題我們來檢視你的核心價值到底有沒有改變去年總統大選時國民黨的總統候選人侯友宜提出了本外勞薪資脫鉤請問主委你認同嗎你是否主張本外勞薪資脫鉤是或不是"},{"start":25385.609,"end":25399.736,"text":"本牢外牢的薪資脫鉤的事情我應該是贊成的是或不是您是主張嗎?您的想法呢?我對這件事情並不是特別的了解我應該是贊成的再請問主委國防預算關乎我國是否有能力來捍衛國家安全跟主權您同意嗎?我這個觀點您同意嗎?"},{"start":25412.659,"end":25439.572,"text":"我不贊成減少國防外交預算這是我的現在的立場當然明年我們的國防預算創新高但社會上的確有這個聲音提高國防預算會排擠民生預算那你剛剛回答說你不贊成你不贊成提高國防預算我沒有說我贊成我說我贊成提高國防預算我沒有說我不贊成我贊成國防預算提高"},{"start":25439.912,"end":25467.753,"text":"所以你支持提高國防外交的預算這點你非常清楚接下來主委我再請教你兩岸的議題當初馬政府簽訂ECFA的時候民進黨主席蔡英文說ECFA是糖衣毒藥但是2016年民進黨執政了繼續吃毒藥執政8年也沒有想把ECFA廢掉結果現在面臨苦果了"},{"start":25468.493,"end":25492.084,"text":"中國預告要終止ECFA的早收清單那這對於我們的農業、基建、紡織等企業都造成巨大的衝擊請問主委你認為我們政府要趁這個機會把ECFA斷掉呢還是再積極跟中國政府做溝通甚至是豐富ECFA的項目把更多的產業納進ECFA請回答"},{"start":25495.145,"end":25514.89,"text":"我的了解當時ECFA有關服務業的部分沒有雙方簽署一定的約定是對台灣的產業非常有利的至於說ECFA其他的部分我們沒有了解它的評估的效果所以你認為現在應該是停止還是要增加它的內容"},{"start":25516.459,"end":25519.182,"text":"主委最近社會上對兩岸交流很多討論我個人長期主張台灣獨立我現在如果去中國大概一下飛機就被抓走了"},{"start":25537.921,"end":25559.047,"text":"那有名進黨的委員認為對中國來說：任何兩岸之間交流都是統戰：如果沒有辦法管控風險那就不要交流那請問主委你認為兩岸應不應該交流甚至擴大兩岸的經貿、旅遊跟文化交流應該應該要擴大交流"},{"start":25562.264,"end":25575.699,"text":"主委我繼續再請教你你是憲法的學者對於各種憲政體制應該相當了解請問我國目前是總統制、雙首長制還是內閣制請回答"},{"start":25577.063,"end":25580.926,"text":"我轉個方式請那你現在的執政者跟國會結構你認為現在是一致的政府還是分立的政府"},{"start":25602.24,"end":25607.216,"text":"以執政者跟國會的結構你認為現在是分立的還是一致的?"},{"start":25609.199,"end":25616.784,"text":"當然是行政是行政,立法是立法, 行政立法要有制衡跟監督, 立法對行政有監督跟行政的監督跟監督的關注。"},{"start":25639.159,"end":25665.138,"text":"他還是任命同黨的卓榮泰來擔任院長所以現在朝野關係是相當的緊張那請問主委以你憲法學者的角度你是否認為賴清澤總統應該考慮要組成聯合政府化解對立讓政府的運作可以更順暢請回答我不會反對這種思考我也會認為他如果有這種想法是可以繼續努力"},{"start":25666.377,"end":25666.577,"text":"主委"},{"start":25693.499,"end":25709.42,"text":"我剛剛總共問了你五個問題齁一個是你支不支持本外勞薪資脫鉤你說你不支持嘛因為我也請教你你說你要減少國防外交預算一座社會福利經費那你是"},{"start":25710.501,"end":25712.804,"text":"我又請教你你認為應該停止ECFA還是擴大ECFA"},{"start":25726.954,"end":25736.338,"text":"不需要擴大 要重新檢討ECFA現在的清單是否可以繼續對台灣的經貿有利這一題你不願正面回答另外我也請教你兩岸應該擴大交流還是不應該擴大交流"},{"start":25744.042,"end":25751.689,"text":"我再確認一次第5題你認為賴清德總統應該或不應該組成聯合政府他沒有應該的問題他是可以因為憲法沒有強制他怎麼做你支持你也會建議我會支持他做這方面的努力"},{"start":25772.898,"end":25781.209,"text":"主委你會知道我為什麼要問你這些題目嗎?不知道你不知道,好就是因為我要檢視你的核心價值有沒有改變"},{"start":25782.563,"end":25809.734,"text":"所以我找出2012年台灣國民會議不分區立委的政見這個台灣國民會議是你創立的你是創黨元老之一請主委看一下左邊這張是當時的競選公報你是不分區的第二名而我右邊列出的文字就是你們當年的政見內容也是我剛才問的五個問題"},{"start":25812.435,"end":25821.612,"text":"主委你醒了嗎我正在看你現在列的這個我在仔細看我給你報告一下第一個這個紅黨你知道是施明德組織的"},{"start":25822.799,"end":25825.04,"text":"我相信當年你們提出這些證件的時候是基於創黨的核心價值"},{"start":25845.45,"end":25854.897,"text":"那麼時日今日我剛剛一點一點確認這些價值改變了多少或是你自己當年敢勇於主張現在卻不敢正面回應"},{"start":25858.351,"end":25879.16,"text":"你現在列的臺灣國民會議就是前身紅黨的這些在公報上的證件你不要說是你不要因為我因為成為他的不分區第二名我認為這個證件是我你的嘛這跟我你的沒關係啊你是創黨元老你是不分區第二名你今天回頭民眾黨的黨綱你全部都有參與嗎"},{"start":25886.523,"end":25894.108,"text":"我並沒有支持你們當年的政見我只是提出來讓歷史做驗證你的核心價值是不是隨著換了政黨顏色一根的變了沒有啊"},{"start":25912.742,"end":25933.049,"text":"我剛剛問你的物體啊你跟當時的政見就有不一致的地方啊其實主委你不要太擔心我認為我認為本席認為每一個人想法改變其實是OK的是可以的但是你必須負責任的去說明為什麼改變所以我暫時"},{"start":25935.472,"end":25960.897,"text":"停下來讓主委想一想為什麼有些立場不一樣為什麼有些你當年勇於主張你現在卻不敢正面去回應呢你最主要是哪一項啊你現在列為認為我們兩項主張不一樣不是啊你認為我這裡哪些當時的背景希望增加社會福利預算你剛剛第一個不支持你不支持這個"},{"start":25962.813,"end":25978.207,"text":"你只問我前半段嗎?你問我前半段現在贊不贊成國防和外交經費的增加?我回答是我贊成,可是你完全沒有提社會福利經費啊!"},{"start":25980.129,"end":25994.434,"text":"我當然有提案我剛剛提了我問題我特別你問我問我社會福利經費我當然很可能你很可能需要去看耳鼻喉科做聽力檢查因為我剛剛覺得你聽力很辛苦"},{"start":25995.094,"end":26022.399,"text":"但是我們的對話就是被國會頻道清楚的錄音的主委我請教你憲法的問題按照中華民國憲法增修條文及兩岸人民關係條例中華民國分為自由地區跟大陸地區自由地區指的是台澎金嘛然後大陸地區指的大概是台灣地區以外的領土那這張圖影片你可以看到左邊這張圖是符合憲法但不符合現實"},{"start":26023.499,"end":26025.9,"text":"我認為這兩張圖都不完全呈現現行憲法規範我念現在的條文給您聽憲法第二條中華民國的主權屬於全體國民"},{"start":26051.354,"end":26060.338,"text":"第3條據中華民國國籍者為國民．所以按照第二條第3條．中華民國主權屬於．據中華民國國籍的．現在颱風驚馬地區人民．毫無爭議"},{"start":26088.755,"end":26101.046,"text":"好謝謝謝謝陳委員也謝謝被提名人許智傑委員之詢問以書面提出列入記錄刊登公報下一位請吳宗憲委員詢問"},{"start":26114.873,"end":26138.467,"text":"謝謝主席那我們好請被提名的人答詢好謝謝呃姚先生齁姚先生你好齁你好委員在那個大法官的公聽會的時候已經有特別說明了就是我不會對於您的對於公共政策的特定意見而認為你適不適任大法官我反而認為一個大法官他應該應該呃幫我處理一下"},{"start":26141.844,"end":26155.536,"text":"應該要注意的是他有沒有受到政治力的影響以及他知不知道自己可以做什麼以及不可以做什麼我想這個才是我們心中認為大法官他應該要做到的事情那我想請問您一下"},{"start":26156.707,"end":26183.305,"text":"在您被提名大法官的候選人的時候其實民間有非常多的聲音像譬如說一項親綠的自由時報他就有提到說大法官豈能酬庸再來我們回到看民調上面來看不支持您擔任大法官的高達44%比支持您的人多出10%甚至大家還說提名姚立明當副院長是選舉報恩張文貞是事先報恩"},{"start":26186.987,"end":26214.935,"text":"那我們再回過頭來看為什麼網路上有人說您是變色龍剛剛也很多委員有提到就是從06年您是紅三軍的副總指揮那您剛有說明原因那12年小英基金會14年柯文哲的競選總幹事18年您又說民進黨是垃圾柯文哲不會加入那去年呢您又擔任那個賴清德總統他的辦公室那個競選辦公室主任所以這段"},{"start":26215.835,"end":26233.695,"text":"時間阿您的很多想法其實是在改變的那當然阿人的立場不是不能改變但是改變的速度很快喔所以很多時候很多人說阿您在那個很多議題上面的想法就是兩個變一個是改變的變那另外一個是"},{"start":26234.585,"end":26235.686,"text":"這是一個老問題了啦"},{"start":26258.292,"end":26281.052,"text":"在賴清德他那個萬里的那個老宅那個您曾經在選舉那個時候你在一次的記者會在去年的12月18號的一個中國屆選的記者會的時候您有說到一個東西副總統的居所可以維安這個我百分之百認同這個在特種勤務條例第12條就有了那您說"},{"start":26282.472,"end":26284.815,"text":"居所跟住所不一樣 住所是長期居住的意思"},{"start":26301.274,"end":26302.875,"text":"好,謝謝姚先生,那我跟您報告"},{"start":26326.826,"end":26340.518,"text":"住所在我國民法20條有非常詳細的規定他有久住的意思跟一定居住在一定的地區也就是說他有居住的意思您剛說的沒錯再來我國對於居所的定義在83年的那個裁定"},{"start":26341.787,"end":26359.787,"text":"裡面寫非常清楚而且這幾十年來15級學術都採用認為居所跟住所唯一不同的地方是居所沒有久住的意思但是他必須有居住的事實但是呢那個時候的競選連競選辦公室都說賴清德並沒有居住在那邊也就是說他並沒有居住的事實"},{"start":26361.108,"end":26382.487,"text":"當然我也認同他有到那邊去睡個午覺或去那邊冥想去那邊招待客人我都不否認可能有這些事情但是這些在法律上就不叫做居所啊所以這個連最基本的居所的定義您都不懂所以這有兩種可能性嘛一個就是您的法學素養還不夠不了解居所是什麼"},{"start":26383.007,"end":26404.145,"text":"第二個就是你明明知道這個大一學生都懂得居所的定義但是你必須為了主子幫他洗地所以你必須要告訴大家說那個地方叫居所如果您的論點正確的話辦公室也是我居所啦因為我偶爾還是睡在這邊熬夜啊那偶爾我上禮拜去宜蘭住了兩天那那邊是我的居所嗎"},{"start":26405.126,"end":26427.159,"text":"是這樣定義的嗎?他是在做副總統以後才有你剛才所說的後面那個狀況所以他會再以副總統官邸為他的住所可是你現在問的是他老家嗎?他會不會回老家睡?他在住前常常會回到老家去吧?如果您堅持這個說法您真的會被全國的法律系大一的學生笑"},{"start":26428.459,"end":26448.479,"text":"我在這邊說話我總是說一句話我說話我負責那您可以回去查一下我國住所居所的定義既然不符合我國住所居所的規定那個違安就是一個違法的違安您當時在當場你還幫他辯護說那個是他的居所所以我在這邊必須告訴您要嘛您的法學素養真的不足"},{"start":26449.019,"end":26469.453,"text":"第二個就是你明知道但是為了替主子洗地所以必須要說那個地方叫居所我跟您報告一件事情偶爾去住個兩三天偶爾在那邊睡午覺那個都不叫居所居所是什麼譬如說我租屋處我的宿舍長期在那邊有居住的事實但不是有久住的意思那個叫做居所"},{"start":26471.915,"end":26495.533,"text":"最高法院明明說了以暫時目的所居之場所啊不對那個我跟你講如果是他到達利齡的地點可以但是居所是有居住的事實什麼叫做居住的事實麻煩你回去翻一下大議的教科書你再這樣跟我講真的覺得還蠻失望的啦那我覺得大法官他是一個必須要"},{"start":26497.787,"end":26510.475,"text":"實憑解釋憲法的一個工作如果說為了追逐權力而去這樣講把政治凌駕在法律之上這種人我不是說您這種人其實是不適合做大法官的那"},{"start":26511.564,"end":26526.807,"text":"我想我剛剛說的麻煩您回去查一下什麼叫做居住的事實這一句話好了我們先不論住所跟居所兩個字什麼叫做居住的事實麻煩您回去找一個大一的學生借一下他的教科書來了解"},{"start":26527.648,"end":26528.728,"text":"先暫停我們尊重詢問人"},{"start":26557.368,"end":26559.713,"text":"時間要暫停,你沒辦法暫停嗎?我給你10秒你先講"},{"start":26573.09,"end":26590.442,"text":"我今天要詢問您這幾天過去受訪的影片以及您之前發表的文章以及有關憲法法庭以及當年大法官會議解釋的時代的東西我都稍微以您的名字稍微去查證一下"},{"start":26592.753,"end":26618.469,"text":"我在想就是您在2007年的時候有發表過一篇文章就是《從憲法功能與實踐論內閣制修憲》其實從這個地方我們看得出來你認為說其實這個憲政上面的弊端有時候權力沒有任何限制之下會造成一個超級的大總統這個是您以前的論述那當然你在2014年你跟林卓水大師也曾經"},{"start":26619.608,"end":26624.23,"text":"我相信您是支持要有足夠制衡總統的機制是不是?這是不是您的論點?是"},{"start":26641.802,"end":26651.267,"text":"那到今天也沒有變過對不對沒有那如果依照你的這個想法之下的話請問一下我國目前對於總統的問責是什麼"},{"start":26651.909,"end":26674.68,"text":"沒有好 謝謝那您對於這個制度你是覺得不應該有對不對應該修改好 謝謝你我相信你這句話我認為我國目前總統是一個很畸形的建制是完全沒有任何可以去制約他的而且他在8年的任內只會有被一次連任那一次的檢驗之後就都沒有好 那"},{"start":26676.288,"end":26689.911,"text":"我在延續你說的那個超級大總統的那個觀念裡面其實你想啊一個總統連任之後其實裡面有一段時間的大法官可能到最後全部都是由他所提出來的人選這個你應該清楚吧"},{"start":26690.646,"end":26692.287,"text":"提名大法官要符合司法院的規定"},{"start":26720.936,"end":26739.705,"text":"提名大法官又有一定的程序提名大法官最後還要經過大院的同意他有三關要過所以這一點我個人認為尤其現在立法院並沒有多數的跟總統相同的政黨那這麼崎嶇的路子"},{"start":26740.742,"end":26767.965,"text":"我不覺得他是在酬庸我他應該有更多的職務不需要經過立法院吧不是啊 你不是就是做他的那個計準辦公室主任嗎好不好那這樣啦 我只跟你說我們現在的總統啊他已經變成是行政權的最高行政首長了啦他已經不是行政院長因為他還可以打電話去罵那個環境部長啊這個還是衛福部長自己說出來的所以我們現在就是變得一個很奇怪的"},{"start":26769.094,"end":26791.824,"text":"的制度如果說你一切依照憲法的邏輯去走總統歸總統、行政院長歸行政院長那我們還可以理解但是現在總統已經幾乎變成是行政院院長的等於是兼任行政院院長了再來我們再提到您的以前的論述也有提到說一個權力不能毫無節制毫無約束但是113年憲判9號其實它幾乎讓"},{"start":26795.606,"end":26823.846,"text":"除了我們先說除了總統變成沒有人可以管之外憲判9號讓行政院也沒有人可以管所以這個東西跟您當年的想法是完全不一樣所以這次的憲判9號他把那個國會的調查權從狼牙棒變仙女棒你只能拿來放個火花而已一點用處都沒有那如果您擔任大法官之後你會不會依據您當年的理想你去做出新的憲判秩序推翻掉憲判9號"},{"start":26825.779,"end":26852.157,"text":"大法官不能修憲我認為現在的總統是叫超級大總統制我這些都同意的可是我不能修憲我必須按照現行憲法去解釋憲法所以我贊成國會調查權從沒有否認過在我所有的文章都是如此可是我請區分憲法原憲法我先不講徵修條文已經修改了57條內容大致相同值數字改變了57條跟67條都不同"},{"start":26855.639,"end":26881.539,"text":"57條是立法院可以質詢行政院的條文67條是立法院的委員會可以邀請社會跟官員我沒有說你擔任大法官可以修憲我只是說以新的憲判制去推翻舊的憲判制嘛我剛不是說了嗎我贊成國會有調查權可是請區別第一司法有調查權行政會調查像最近的霸凌行政也在調查"},{"start":26882.979,"end":26899.466,"text":"國會當然有調查權五官五就肯定了可是每一個調查權互相有一個界限我就期待如果您順利擔任大法官的話請您能夠秉持您過往的想法您的理想去做出一個合憲的判決好不好"},{"start":26900.006,"end":26921.119,"text":"我一定會如此啊我必須只能依照現行憲法我不能去改變憲法這次韓國戒嚴讓我們想到一個點就是說他為什麼可以在6個小時之內就化解了這次的危機其實有一個跟我國很大不一樣的地方就是他們的國會他是可以主動去集會然後去解除戒嚴但是在我國呢我們必須被動的等總統"},{"start":26922.16,"end":26941.375,"text":"提交過來之後然後我們再予以追認或不追認所以這一個月的時間他可能已經幹盡了所有的壞事了那我想請問您一個點就是說您覺得與你認識的賴總統他有沒有可能宣布戒嚴不可能不可能謝謝"},{"start":26944.383,"end":26973.067,"text":"但是齁其實這段時間他只說民主不走回頭路啦但是他從來沒有說他絕對不宣布戒嚴但是我在想齁我還是蠻希望你這個不可能是將來一定就是這樣子啦齁但是我也必須再講一個因為我剛剛說了嘛您也是這個一直變嘛那賴總統會不會像您一樣將來也是變來變去又變去會戒嚴我們也不知道所以我們只能盡量創造一個更好的制度來保護這個國家好那"},{"start":26973.837,"end":26988.054,"text":"那個 那我們這次齁 有人提到說24小時把責任時間縮短24小時您認同嗎我沒有聽懂問題 對不起就是一個月的時間把它改為24小時您認同嗎你說那個戒嚴還是對 對戒嚴"},{"start":26990.094,"end":27014.419,"text":"我當然同意,我甚至於認為我非常同意屬於韓國的那個制度,也就是...好,謝謝,謝謝,那我...我謝謝,那有一些...這個應該可以修改戒嚴法的規定沒問題,對,這是立法院的責任對好,我有一些東西我當然是認同,你只要認同我就支持那有一些我不認同的我就不支持好,那我再提一下,過往的副院長,司法院副院長"},{"start":27015.489,"end":27025.316,"text":"有法治彬、蔡炯敦、蘇詠卿、謝再全這些要嘛就是基層法官出身要嘛就是有相當的行政歷練那我想請問您一個問題因為您過去並沒有相關的行政經驗或實務經驗那您認為您擔任副院長有辦法稱職嗎?"},{"start":27038.933,"end":27061.478,"text":"我應該是可以的如果是司法行政的工作我當然會追尋院長的許多行政工作因為副院長講時代話如果沒有院長的交代我其實沒有什麼行政工作可言所以我會按照未來司法院院長如果我有幸成為副院長我當然會追隨院長的行政工作的交代"},{"start":27062.578,"end":27086.964,"text":"來配合我跟你講當時那個柯文哲當選市長之後你在一次訪談裡面你有提到說你不適合行政工作因為每天要早起所以這個也是讓我去擔心因為每天要早起你不適合行政工作但現在卻要你擔任司法院的副院長他必須有非常非常多的行政工作那這樣子我會擔心也沒有行政的經驗也沒有實務的經驗"},{"start":27090.985,"end":27110.235,"text":"這時候又要你違反自己的生活習慣每天早起去擔任副院長這真的有可能嗎這話是你以前自己講的我這句話講的背景是因為當時柯文哲要求我6點多去7點鐘要開會當時他的行政工作是這個習慣我當時針對他所講的說我特別講到台北市政府"},{"start":27115.418,"end":27116.178,"text":"各級法院：法官："},{"start":27142.705,"end":27159.907,"text":"主席官、法警這些人的辛勞這都過勞了你一定要特別注意到那其實從剛剛問你的那個賴清德住所那件事情其實我對你的答案其實並沒有很滿意那我也覺得說這段時間你一直變來變去"},{"start":27161.781,"end":27187.639,"text":"我其實我這段時間我這幾天我看了這些資料之後我心裡有個想法其實你在紅三軍那個時候你曾經講過一句話我當年我也很感動你說你永遠站在權力的對立面但是呢現在變成說是站在你站在權力的最裡面了司法院副院長大法官這變成權力的最裡面你已經不是在權力的對立面了所以我在這邊跟您說就是畢竟這個這個"},{"start":27190.242,"end":27216.36,"text":"這個我也不知道該怎麼說因為當年我確實對你這句話是很感動那我覺得這一次啊他們挑你當大法官其實我也在想說我看了一下組織法的規定想說這到底是適合哪一個點我也還是想不出來所以說還是說因為我看了一下您過往的事蹟其實最引人注意到的是輔選你輔選真的很厲害而且你的勝率非常高"},{"start":27217.056,"end":27221.618,"text":"我永遠站在權力的對立面的意思是說我永遠不會因為任何人舉例來講我幫助柯文哲過可是我站在他的對立面在批判他"},{"start":27246.328,"end":27269.169,"text":"我絕對不會因為我幫助過賴清德針對他如果違法違憲的行為我就閉口不言這叫做權力對立面今天我接受這個是因為我自己專業憲法我覺得我可以在這方面有所貢獻我尊重您的講法但是我想說你也尊重我對於看完很多花了非常多時間看完你的資料之後我自己心中的一個感覺"},{"start":27270.45,"end":27290.536,"text":"那另外就是 組織法第4條有提到研究法學但是我看了一下您過去10年並沒有發表期刊那還有就是過往的資料我查了一下其實著作也不多總共有38合著的有38篇學術論文然後"},{"start":27294.05,"end":27307.489,"text":"這個14篇著作那跟我明天要質詢的另外一位老師陳運財老師其實他有3本書114篇文章跟100篇期刊論文比你多了100篇期刊論文所以我覺得在學術領域"},{"start":27308.45,"end":27319.622,"text":"可能這個地位也很難被大家所認同所以最後我的感覺我的結論這段時間我看下來就是說因為沒有實務的經驗沒有從事相關的實務經驗也沒有行政"},{"start":27323.626,"end":27324.106,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員 謝謝貝提銘人"},{"start":27353.137,"end":27357.714,"text":"報告全院委員會休息5分鐘,休息之後繼續進行詢問,現在休息。"},{"start":27672.21,"end":27672.792,"text":"全院委員會現在繼續開會,進行委員詢問,請省委員發會詢問。"},{"start":27705.346,"end":27708.91,"text":"主席請被庭理人請姚被庭理人"},{"start":27725.896,"end":27753.51,"text":"我想我跟你認識應該超過20年20幾年了當年我還不是公職人員還是幕僚的時候我們在政論節目上面常常碰面在那個時代你是新黨的代表我是民進黨的代表所以事實上這麼久以來我想這個我們認識這麼久"},{"start":27755.851,"end":27774.92,"text":"以我對你的了解跟你接觸的人其實大概都了解你在政治的想法上面其實非常的堅定甚至可以說到固執的程度了"},{"start":27776.449,"end":27801.133,"text":"我們的理念不同從過去開始一些理念不同但是事實上跟您接觸的人都不會討厭你都知道說你有你自己固執堅持的地方但是今天來到這個您今天被提名為司法院副院長來到立法院召開這樣子的公聽會所有的這些"},{"start":27802.642,"end":27815.383,"text":"的過往大概通通要受到檢驗了這個我們下午我下午這樣子聽這麼多委員對您的這個指教我是覺得說"},{"start":27817.677,"end":27838.156,"text":"有一些我們可以來我希望說能夠今天這個公聽會能夠讓您有更多的機會說明你個人的想法跟你個人的理念跟你個人對於未來如果你有機會擔任這樣的職務您希望能夠做什麼我覺得這個比較重要但是我剛剛看到這個下午這個很多有的委員就是"},{"start":27839.924,"end":27851.418,"text":"這是在這裡好像政治像在上call in節目一樣齁這個潑政治的髒水啦齁然後就說啊變來變去啦齁說你變色龍啦說你質疑你的政黨轉換只是我比較驚訝啦齁其實"},{"start":27858.285,"end":27883.617,"text":"我個人是沒有換過政黨我從我從民進黨還沒有創黨我高中我還沒有資格加入政黨的時候我就支持民進黨一直到現在我還是民進黨但是我看到有一些站在這裡質疑你的其實我看他們自己的政黨也換來換去啊有的從新黨到國民黨有的從親民黨到國民黨有的從時代力量到民眾黨有的從民進黨到民眾黨"},{"start":27886.823,"end":27913.091,"text":"所以這個政治就是這樣子當立法委員很大站在這裡可以質疑你說你這個政黨你換過政黨你為什麼從以前新黨後來變成去幫柯文哲助選為什麼從幫柯文哲助選後來又幫但是在質疑你的過程裡面我就覺得說這些人家裡面沒有鏡子可以自己看一看嗎"},{"start":27914.679,"end":27937.828,"text":"自己這個政黨換來換去齁然後在這裡臉不紅氣不喘我個人認為說換政黨並不是問題啦齁問題是你你是不是有一個中心的價值以及你這個一路走來你要經過檢驗一個人換政黨可能是這個政黨讓你失望也有可能是這個政黨它自己瓦解也有可能是這個政黨它改變了"},{"start":27940.542,"end":27967.583,"text":"大家檢驗是檢驗今天來這裡不是檢驗你的政黨今天來這裡是檢驗姚立明這個人到底適不適任擔任大法官適不適合擔任司法院副院長所以應該是檢驗你而不是檢驗說你這個政黨到底有沒有變化所以我在這裡我就要直接要請教剛才也有委員有直接有問到你這個問題就是說你有改變政黨但是你的究竟"},{"start":27968.629,"end":27990.04,"text":"究竟你的中心思想是什麼你要讓大家可以檢驗你剛剛有提到說你對中華民國這個國家認同的堅持這部分我相信而且這部分你確實經得起檢驗從過去到現在你一貫的對於中華民國包括你在新黨的時候對中華民國的看法跟到現在對中華民國的看法大概沒有改變這個部分我想應該大家沒有質疑但是其實除了國家認同以外因為當我看了"},{"start":27998.991,"end":28027.913,"text":"姚教授您的條件以你的出身背景其實算是根正苗紅根正苗紅而且你所接受的學術訓練回國之後在學術界的付出你當初如果在30年前你那時候剛回國你如果那時候加入國民黨跟著吃香喝辣那時候還在戒嚴時期跟著國民黨吃香喝辣我想你現在應該身份締約不只是司法院副院長"},{"start":28029.704,"end":28040.466,"text":"所以我想你當年加入新黨可能現在年輕人在網路上他們可能不清楚他們現在看到新黨就覺得新黨好像是一個現在是國民黨的"},{"start":28041.898,"end":28064.79,"text":"的一個附隨組織國民黨一個小黨不清楚說當年新黨在成立的時候跟國民黨的對抗事實上是非常非常激烈的那個時候我個人身歷其境我知道說那時候新黨事實上在國民黨那時候跟國民黨對抗相當激烈跟民進黨當然對抗也是很激烈的所以你一定有一些什麼樣的價值讓你選擇"},{"start":28068.972,"end":28094.602,"text":"這個價值當然奠基在憲法裡面叫中華民國我不曉得你記不記得趙少康第一次在新黨參選臺北市市長的時候的口號叫什麼就叫做保衛中華民國我就是那個時候被王健軒邀請加入新黨保衛中華民國的意思那群人全是原來在海外讀書的時候加入一個團體叫反共"},{"start":28096.223,"end":28125.612,"text":"反共復國聯盟反共復國聯盟我原來對中國其實因為我的家庭背景我想你聽我的口音應該知道我所以對中國也有很多很多的憧憬可是當我因為新黨的關係保衛中華民國的關係我進入到中國以後中國以後我主要接觸的是那邊的教會人士"},{"start":28127.639,"end":28149.125,"text":"我認識了許多的牧師被壓迫被逮捕我再也不跟他們往來了我大概有十多年的時間我經常進出那邊我最近二三十年幾乎沒有就是因為我完全接受我父親給我灌輸的那個觀念也許就是大家認為八股的蔣經國講的那個共產黨是不能夠互動的"},{"start":28153.902,"end":28182.972,"text":"本沒有任何一丁點要給你交朋友的真正的善意這叫保衛中華民國所以我認為只不能夠在保衛中華民國的概念下就是憲法的概念因為憲法就是中華民國姚教授這個當年的情景我記得非常清楚那時候在這個臺北市長三個候選人一個陳水扁一個黃大洲一個趙少康"},{"start":28184.444,"end":28205.815,"text":"當初大家在針對這個市政辯論的時候在國父紀念館那時候我是現場觀眾聽眾之一以幕僚的身分那個時候趙教堂開頭批頭所講的話我到現在記得他講說全國的居民同胞中華民國要滅亡他說要反共這些東西在我今天看來是格外的諷刺"},{"start":28206.963,"end":28222.075,"text":"尤其是看到有些人在這裡質疑你我就覺得這個是格外的諷刺當年說高喊要反共的現在在幹什麼當年說要保衛中華民國的人現在在幹什麼現在誰在保衛中華民國現在誰在對抗中國在保衛中華民國"},{"start":28231.434,"end":28259.973,"text":"所以拿這個來質疑姚教授說你的改變在我看來好像改變好像不是你好像是你過去所參加的這些政黨他們的改變我想這個姚教授你不要再講了因為你在講也許我們兩個在這邊可以聊得很高興但是可能別人就不高興了你要是要經過同意權的投票可能別人就不高興了"},{"start":28262.196,"end":28288.916,"text":"大家就說你這個是仇傭剛剛我有聽到仇傭這兩個字我聽起來就說仇傭喔所謂仇傭是說因為你有你幫我忙所以我現在給你一個好康的讓你好康的但我一看這個就不是好康的啊你要站在這裡接受這些人接受這些這些人像大家這樣子對你的質疑接受這些人對你的潑髒水"},{"start":28290.492,"end":28317.938,"text":"甚至是抹黑如果真的要酬庸你其實可以給你更好的位置啊給你一個董事長給你一個權力更大的位置啊司法院司法院副院長、大法官這個這個要來這裡接受立法委員的同意權的公聽會又要經過同意權投票當個大法官你又要接受要這些立法委員再修改你的這個這個"},{"start":28319.594,"end":28321.575,"text":"我太太是劉德的法學博士他不但"},{"start":28348.029,"end":28349.891,"text":"這個部分我想這個其實時間過了大家就可以檢驗了我想這個姚教授"},{"start":28372.586,"end":28398.402,"text":"所以到現在 如果說你你這樣子是 你說你是政治辨識龍你是辨來辨去的 你是你的人格是這種人格我想大家也不會每一次不管是不同的黨派的人都來找你幫忙所以我覺得大家剛才也提到了大家對你最大的質疑大概就是說你這一次好像你被提名大法官你是被引用的是這個"},{"start":28401.246,"end":28426.164,"text":"司法院組織法第4條的第1項第6款的研究法學富有政治經驗生育卓著者所以他們在這裡泼髒水先讓你這個生育卓著的部分先讓你受傷接下來他們在這個研究法學這個部分是沒什麼疑義啦但他們會在這裡說你的法學素養不夠啊指引你的法學素養等等但最後他們就說你這個是政治人民"},{"start":28427.35,"end":28455.802,"text":"這是因為你這是政治證明但是事實上我們來看國外的例子國外其實像美國許多著名的美國的憲法解釋非著名的憲法解釋他們做出這個憲法解釋的大法官事實上都是政治人物出身的最出名的有關這個反對這個隔離而平等對種族隔離這個解釋為違反美國憲法的最出最出名的這個Earl Warren華倫大法官"},{"start":28456.889,"end":28485.944,"text":"他就是他在擔任大法官之前他就是加州州長他就是政治人物出身的所以政治我覺得為什麼我們在這個司法院組織法會有這一條就是因為我們在大法官會議解釋的過程中他需要有各種不同領域的專業有的是民法專業有的是訴訟法的專業有的是刑事方面的專業有的是憲法方面的專業有的甚至姚教授你代表的就是憲法方面的專業以及"},{"start":28487.163,"end":28515.757,"text":"實務的政治經驗我覺得這個部分我認為說我們是我個人是支持這樣子的提名當然這個因為這段時間似乎出現在政治新聞上面因此你的政治色彩看起來就特別的強烈大家都忘了都忘了說你其實是"},{"start":28517.028,"end":28545.149,"text":"法律學者出身的也是法律學者出身的以我的了解這個老教授事實上在德國您接受的是著名的德國的大法官這個這個Green教授的指導你的博士論文也是這個指導那Green教授他在過去他在這個這個在德國的也擔任過大法官那也這個這個"},{"start":28547.503,"end":28574.765,"text":"也算也是在憲法方面是生育卓著那這個部分齁這個我想要了解就是說在你過去所接受的這個學術訓練讓你回國之後當然你也都曾經在中山大學在這個文化大學執教過但是大家對於你的這個法律方面的這些你在憲法方面你你專研憲法的哪一個部分"},{"start":28575.609,"end":28603.206,"text":"在德國叫做國家學國家學包含最重要其實簡單講叫做主持片一般的法律人比較在學校也好在事務上不會接觸的叫做權力分立的基本原則行政權的內涵政黨與憲法選舉的基本原則等等等等的這些都不是傳統法律學的內容"},{"start":28604.459,"end":28629.629,"text":"主持偏本身在這一大塊的憲法領域裏面的解釋方法跟人權的解釋方法又有大有不同所以克林在指導我的博士的時候特別提到所以他為什麼叫我去學哲學也叫我去社會學社會學我的老師是被認為歐洲的三個大師之一叫盧曼尼克勞斯盧曼"},{"start":28630.848,"end":28657.513,"text":"一個法律學者為什麼要去學社會學而且要進入到我跟著他曾經進入到德國的政黨的活動之中我才理解原來憲法的解釋不是一個憑空解釋條文的概念而是它是一個動態的隨著政治的變化是一個動態的內容我這樣聽起來你的這個專業你在於這個憲法方面的這個尤其是現在目前"},{"start":28658.473,"end":28682.565,"text":"因為這個朝野這個政治朝小野霸這樣子的局勢之下台灣特殊的一個憲政體制之下目前有關權力分立相關之間的這些理論好像這是你的專業不是嗎?是不是?對啊沒錯我順便舉個例子嘛每個人都說行政跟立法有監督跟制衡可是我請教一下內閣制"},{"start":28684.07,"end":28684.57,"text":"我剩下差不多3分鐘的時間"},{"start":28708.971,"end":28736.782,"text":"你個人對於因為這個你接下來如果你現在接受的提名是司法院的副院長你個人對於司法院副院長這個角色的扮演這是第一個問題你希望你在接下來3分鐘裡面回答第二個就是因為我們目前臺灣目前的制度我們的修憲非常非常的困難但是我們現在整個社會的變化整個政治這些相關的權力分立之間發生的這些問題"},{"start":28738.137,"end":28766.523,"text":"他因為修憲的困難使得憲法的解釋變得特別格外的重要這部分這兩個問題是不是能夠請你在剩下的三分鐘內回答我先回答第一個問題修憲條文我個人認為有違憲之嫌因為他前半段在立法院三分之四分之三等等的都還可以可能達成可是在後半段有關公民覆決那一塊"},{"start":28768.134,"end":28784.731,"text":"在實務上幾乎是不可行所以我認為已經侵害了國民主權人民修憲的權利所以修憲條文有沒有可能違憲這需要寫一大篇因為這涉及到國民主權的解釋"},{"start":28786.397,"end":28810.283,"text":"所以在修憲條文沒有辦法在宣告違憲有另外的設計之前大法官為了因應社會的變化的快速他又不能修憲他就必須要透過憲法解釋來適應這個變化這就是我說的因為修憲的困難使得憲法解釋變得格外的重要沒錯"},{"start":28812.198,"end":28838.585,"text":"所以這一方面尤其在組織片因為這個各種政治運作的可能性所以我強調憲法法庭不是單純的司法官他也是憲政機構因為他會被動的介入到權力之間的爭議所以他也成為分配權力的一份子在這種情況之下當然司法的積極性為了要彌補修憲的困難以及司法的自治"},{"start":28841.177,"end":28865.577,"text":"這個概念特別要維持平衡免得讓人覺得大法官取代了立法權司法修憲權一樣的他這個解釋的一個平衡變得非常非常重要最重要的目的是讓憲法的核心的價值也就是立法權與行政權的互動的所要保護的那個內涵要能夠落實透過憲法解釋落實出來這一點"},{"start":28867.699,"end":28868.039,"text":"我現在只有30秒了我想這個"},{"start":28892.406,"end":28897.97,"text":"今天姚教授在這邊提名在這邊接受這些立法委員大家對您的這些指教跟詢問"},{"start":28899.94,"end":28924.275,"text":"我想在我看來這個不但不是酬庸其實是一個承擔是一個承擔因為未來大法官所扮演的角色其實非常的吃重那您要在這裡再接受我們這些立法委員這樣子的考問在我看這個也不是酬庸所以我希望說如果真的能夠有機會順利我希望你能夠為台灣的司法"},{"start":28927.607,"end":28949.668,"text":"謝謝沈委員、謝謝被提名的人下一位請楊瓊英委員詢問你要不要喝口水?"},{"start":28952.421,"end":28974.624,"text":"我還沒請耶你先回座吧我還沒請我還沒請你先回座好楊主任發言院會主席江副院長以及被提名者特別是我們的同仁新聞界的朋友首先主席邀請提名人我們請這個要被提名人大旬"},{"start":28984.51,"end":28997.325,"text":"在被提名人假設在未來的任期當中假設你認為最具指標的憲政議題以及基本人權保障的議題是什麼呢?請做說明"},{"start":28999.053,"end":29017.344,"text":"我在我的口頭報告裡面提到兩點一點叫臺灣的新聞自由現在其實新聞自由叫老闆的自由不是新聞工作者採訪的自由以及報導的自由這一點對於我們國家未來民主憲政發展"},{"start":29018.24,"end":29044.242,"text":"有障礙所以我認為這是我們關心的一個題目主要原因當然背景是因為我曾經參與長期參與媒體的工作所以我深刻的體會到一個國家的新聞自由如果不能夠充分的獲得保障也就是新聞工作者的自由如果不能夠不被干涉因為以前的干涉是黨政軍外部的干涉"},{"start":29045.493,"end":29066.431,"text":"現在是內部的控制也就是我們新聞自由好像變成10個人8個老闆的自由這是非常危險的一件事情所以這是我自己在報告中間我在所有人雖然生命權我也很重視雖然財產權我也很重視可是在所有的問題我發覺在民主政治發展中言論與新聞自由這一塊"},{"start":29067.612,"end":29092.212,"text":"非常明顯的有傷害這是我所關心的至於說憲政體制也就是所謂的權力分立這一塊我也覺得因為我們當年90年代的修憲有一些我不能講錯誤沒有仔細考慮過權力的平衡問題這一部分只能透過"},{"start":29093.713,"end":29120.298,"text":"憲法解釋或者先要解決那個修憲條文因為譬如說修憲根本幾乎剛才我特別提到了根本幾乎已經不可能的情況之下我們要經過憲法的解釋讓修憲成為可能或者在沒有修憲可能的情況之下透過大法官的解釋讓各機關的權力之間的制衡與監督能夠達到一定的平衡這是非常非常重要的"},{"start":29120.618,"end":29144.816,"text":"好 謝謝提名人你的說明在第一個言論自由是非常的重要這在你的這個說明當中同時也是機關當中怎麼樣能夠平衡這也是你最重要的一個論述當然我尊重你的願景但是本席也不得以及外界不得在質疑也就是作為大法官你是不是有足夠的法學累積來實踐"},{"start":29146.817,"end":29149.158,"text":"文章中文章中文章中文章中文章中文章中文章中"},{"start":29168.47,"end":29190.932,"text":"的期刊論文而又根據我們國家圖書館的期刊論文的系統來查詢姚立明教授您38篇的期刊當中你有6篇與憲法有關一篇與刑法有關其餘的都是比較政治政治制度地方制度的這個政治學領域你的發表是如此"},{"start":29191.613,"end":29219.222,"text":"同時這些期刊是在1990年也就是34年前你有32篇2000年以後有6篇最新的一篇是在9年前所以不管是你說的在整個你上任之後你希望要實現要能夠實現這些的願景但是還是有很多的民眾期盼大法官的表現是在各種的議題"},{"start":29220.382,"end":29248.432,"text":"尤其你在最近這20年來你根本沒有深入的去研究相關的憲法法學的議題要怎麼樣能夠說服你有足夠的專業領域跟知識又要如何的能夠承擔著憲法的一個解釋、釋憲的一個重任那更不用說你想達成你的這個願望所以除了外界質疑的學術脫節"},{"start":29250.593,"end":29269.599,"text":"與法學研究瓶頸但是我仍舊要告訴你在你的資訊當中你所謂的憲政經驗跟學術專業其實都是在二三十年前那麼看看你的履歷你所列的憲法這個學會你擔任的理事"},{"start":29270.339,"end":29297.272,"text":"但是這也應該是很早以前你大概參加了一兩次據瞭解你也早已經沒有參加這個學會了那所以你任的國會觀察基金會的董事長這個組織是公開評鑒立法委員、立委這也是16年前那同時後來你公開活動這個基金會是在2015年公布的兩岸兩岸的民調以及最近"},{"start":29298.473,"end":29326.971,"text":"本席要請問也就是最近在整個大家非常關心的實質廢死的判決在你的以及最近的國會改革在你的基金會裡頭的研究似乎都沒有提出任何給社會的一個研究以及基金會所提出的政治著見都沒有所以不免讓人家懷疑在你的領導之下的基金會呢幾乎沒有作為"},{"start":29327.651,"end":29328.151,"text":"我又很簡單因為"},{"start":29357.639,"end":29385.591,"text":"謝謝委員提了5、6個問題我先針對兩個比較核心的第一個沒有學術著作在我最近20年是20、30年我可不可以很簡單的說明法官出身的大法官檢察官出身的大法官律師出身的大法官也不會也可能有在20、30年他不是以學術論文為主只有在學校教書的"},{"start":29387.408,"end":29403.51,"text":"我剛才在前面幾位時候已經說明白我為什麼離開學校所以我就沒有再繼續在這方面換句話說司法院所提的這些資格有律師有檢察官有司法官他們也沒有所謂的學術論文可是他蓋各自的理論"},{"start":29404.851,"end":29407.895,"text":"請問院長提名人張女士她的專書篇是50多篇期刊論文也60多篇"},{"start":29422.914,"end":29448.835,"text":"這個不是說當然我也尊重你的論述你認為大法官不一定要有這些論文也不一定要有這些憲政的研究也不一定要有這些期刊也不一定要在近期這是你剛剛本席的論述但是我還是要告訴你其他人他們的資料到底是怎麼回事所以本席要再請教根據司法院組織法的第4條裡頭"},{"start":29451.017,"end":29478.969,"text":"您是唯一也就是以政治經驗豐富以研究法學生育卓著的這個背景這個資料這個因子來獲提名但是有人認為你在研究法學卓著你的生育的這個部分呢認為是不及格的所以本席要請教這樣的論述你的看法呢"},{"start":29480.404,"end":29502.985,"text":"我不曉得為什麼會有當然是因為從資料上來看我當然不如張文貞他的論文是悍牛衝動可是我特別說明了我所專業的憲法組織篇的解釋方面我曾經參與政治事務對我的幫助"},{"start":29504.73,"end":29505.19,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29528.035,"end":29546.996,"text":"這一個憲法應然性的目的謝謝你的說明換句話說您的說明也就是不認同外界所質疑的研究法學生育卓著不足的這個部分但是你以實務的一個參與你點頭了所以本期要請教你是法律人嗎"},{"start":29549.394,"end":29576.939,"text":"問一下請教你是法律人嗎?你覺得你是法律人嗎?我是憲法人我先區別一下憲法人跟法律人好嗎?憲法跟法律很多人把憲法法律當作一個上位概念憲法是民法刑法刑訴民訴下面的憲法的一種法律這個我個人認為是一個錯誤的概念憲法本身它是一個有政治法的概念"},{"start":29578.035,"end":29597.715,"text":"他的所規範的內容跟實務政治非常密切相關所以憲法我並不是說因為它是政治法所以就憑個人的政治意識形態去解釋進入條文喔憲法是政治法是因為解釋憲法必須要理解現在實務政治實務運作"},{"start":29600.257,"end":29620.988,"text":"提名人也就是外界為什麼你這樣的回答外界對你還是有非常多的質疑空間那所以我們看到你這些著作尤其你到最近這20年來都熱衷在政治活動而非法律的研究所以法界有很多人認為你早已經脫離了這個學術的這個圈了甚至說"},{"start":29626.491,"end":29645.718,"text":"你是政治人不是法律人所以這是很多法界跟司法團體以及民調共同的聲音所以我也要告訴你你的法學學術經驗跟實務經驗竟然沒有辦法從這個部分來去討論你的大法官資格那或許有人還是質疑"},{"start":29646.738,"end":29672.523,"text":"也就是說你被提名是因為富有政治經驗政治經驗那如果是如此難怪會有人有這些的一個質疑也就是甚至說如果是只有因為富有政治經驗恐怕這個大法官的這個提名是開創了中華民國歷史以來的惡例那認為大法官的法學素養不重要只要站對邊就好"},{"start":29673.343,"end":29691.207,"text":"所以談及到政治人竟然不是或者是是但是政治的面向還是很大不是政治人是憲法人是憲法人的問題我曾經如果對我專業有質疑的我建議當然楊委員也是我曾經回答"},{"start":29694.749,"end":29719.008,"text":"聽清楚本席的提問也就是談及政治的這一塊談及政治人你先不用緊張談及政治人本席要請問在您擔任賴清德總統競選總部主委時您的任務是什麼你對於總統的勝選你提供了什麼樣的這個幫助那麼為何他要聘請你擔任競選總部的要職呢請做說明"},{"start":29720.405,"end":29732.84,"text":"擔任他的主任委員啊擔任賴清德的主任委員的確是一個意外當他主動打電話跟我講說我很適合去做他的競選總部主任委員的時候我問兩個問題第一個問題壞命"},{"start":29736.044,"end":29744.911,"text":"他回答的很簡單他認為他曾經看過我的一些表達的對陳立健所以你換句話說是總統主動打電話給你邀請的吧所以認為你在這個任務最重要的是什麼他告訴我的"},{"start":29751.656,"end":29779.152,"text":"我也覺得我可以勝任他說我的有一些想法跟他現在的幹部會有一些不同樣的角度的思考他選舉需要有這種角度的思考所以當時我也沒有立即答應然後他說了第二點因為我人根本就在高雄我定居了在高雄了我還要到台北來他說我只要需要你一天半的時間所以我擔任主任委員我只有禮拜一"},{"start":29779.992,"end":29784.398,"text":"在這個勝選當中你提供給總統最重要的訊息是什麼政治評估跟選舉民調的分析這兩件事情為主"},{"start":29801.259,"end":29826.313,"text":"我曾經在柯文哲那裡我最早也是幫他做民調分析所以我後來在估選票方面我都是根據這些來做的所以你這說法也就是這兩項民調跟政治評估分析是對於你在擔任這個主委最重要的當然我還在每個禮拜一下午主因為我是主委主持一個記者會就這樣"},{"start":29827.774,"end":29830.915,"text":"我當然在他邀請我做大法官甚至於是副院長的時候我也是"},{"start":29854.558,"end":29878.339,"text":"因為我當然會想到人家會質疑我什麼嘛因為我好久沒有在學術界了所以你認為是合理的是適宜的可是他在提到說我自己他提到我的專業他提到我他曾經聽過我講甲乙丙丁憲法的一些論述他覺得我可以對中華民國憲法解釋尤其在組織邊上做一些貢獻"},{"start":29879.6,"end":29884.881,"text":"我覺得我願意做這個承擔雖然我也知道我當然知道我當然認為我適合可以做我當然認為合適啊我當然知道立法院沒有多數我當然知道這是一條艱辛的路"},{"start":29901.906,"end":29925.833,"text":"再請教如果你現在也是賴清德總統的政治幕僚在這樣子選戰完沒有到一年的時間來接受超然中立的大法官的提名你會建議總統這麼做嗎?如果你現在是賴清德總統的政治幕僚在這樣的背景情況之下你會建議總統這麼做嗎?來提名姚立明嗎?"},{"start":29927.383,"end":29948.101,"text":"我如果他政治幕僚我當然會建議他提名專業的憲法學者作為大法官那你會建議在這樣的情況之下你會建議他提名姚立明嗎我可以給你報告現在本期的議題提問請說明你會建議嗎1月份選完以後到8月份提名你會建議嗎"},{"start":29950.462,"end":29972.622,"text":"我會啊你會啊好接下來本期要告訴你不分黨派超然中立這是我們大法官提名最重要的精神嘛對不對請教是喔是喔所以呢本期要請教您也就是總統提名你的原因是什麼你剛才說了他認為你可以做一些事情那你們兩個有沒有討論啊在提名前有沒有討論"},{"start":29976.783,"end":29985.675,"text":"提名前沒有討論任何說將來做大法官以後提名後呢我只知道一點"},{"start":29986.752,"end":30011.857,"text":"就是當他提名完8月我忘了幾號告訴我之後我就不跟他往來了我說我們的LINE就不要通話了我就跟他說所有的政治活動我們就不活動了就不可以因為我的身份已經被提名人的話如果你提名我我跟你就不能有任何的其他往來他也同意"},{"start":30012.797,"end":30018.942,"text":"所以你接受了提名之後 這個訊息知道你就沒有跟他聯絡了 是如此好 接下來本席要提問你是否支持死刑"},{"start":30035.529,"end":30063.681,"text":"我是否支持死刑支持因為你過去在媒體上面也曾經說了這一句話讓我們聽了蠻感動的你說了沒有配套下的廢死是非常危險的但是在我們的這個憲判制第8號的判決當中以形同實質的廢死但是現在沒有完整配套所以你覺得你當時所說的危險現在是不是已經出現"},{"start":30065.121,"end":30088.942,"text":"請說明三個考慮死刑這件事情不禁止人民侵害人民的生命權這第一第二我認為國家也不能侵害人民的生命權可是國家如果會犯錯就如同人民會犯錯不管什麼原因殺了人國家如果犯錯錯誤的殺了人"},{"start":30091.434,"end":30095.229,"text":"國家應不應該副指導院現在根本沒有"},{"start":30096.246,"end":30097.267,"text":"為了讓國家犯錯的機率要小"},{"start":30121.278,"end":30132.775,"text":"所以我贊成給予判決死刑的人比較嚴格的條件好 這個嚴格的條件本席要請教也就是如果你成為副院長"},{"start":30134.048,"end":30159.888,"text":"遇到其他涉及審刑的憲法訴訟你是否會支持做成新的憲法判決來推翻憲判制8號的判決請說明這個我不能回答因為這個涉及到我個人的心證跟任何法官不能在判決前說明我判決的理由跟決定這一點我真的不能回答那你剛剛說的是國家如果還有一個案件係數到大法官"},{"start":30162.23,"end":30185.26,"text":"我當然按照我的專業跟良心來做判決可是我不能在任何個案之前表達我的心證所以我們聽到的民意八成的民意是反對廢死我也希望未來你再如果有機會當然這個位置還是要以人民的安全良善的人安全以這個被害者的心證為重好謝謝謝謝謝謝楊委員謝謝被提名人"},{"start":30196.48,"end":30221.207,"text":"報告全院委員會．對司法院大法官．並為副院長．被提名人．姚立明．尋答部份到此為止。謝謝姚被提名人．立明列席答詢。12月11日上午9時繼續開會,審查司法院大法官．被提名人．何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳之格之相關事宜,現在休息。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}