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他爭取一般性補助款 請問是他的本質嗎這一點我聽到了非常好啊 他爭取他的本質啊結果隔天你們的彭啟明部長上電視節目說盧縣長很不客氣啊像媽媽在罵兒子很兇很悍啊"},{"start":115.708,"end":141.19,"text":"我想請教彭部長發言是您授意的嗎就要去節目上講的嗎院長不會授意彭部長我當然知道你不會授意啊那我再問你下一件事情啊行政院院會內的內容用他片面之詞在節目上來去揭之於眾用他的方式來去解讀說盧秀燕很兇很憨請問院長你覺得這樣做是對的嗎"},{"start":142.987,"end":163.203,"text":"部長在院會裡面的感受我沒有辦法一一的跟他們做了解溝通你是院長耶我只問你對這件事情覺得妥不妥當你還跟我講說他的感受如何對啊 部長他感受如果今天不能夠符合我們行政院今天去破壞行政院院會的和諧你說院長有沒有責任去稍微去是啦"},{"start":163.723,"end":189.13,"text":"他形容的方式我沒有辦法去約束他那回來我問你他形容方式你認同嗎我問你他形容方式你認同嗎他形容方式你認同嗎你覺得盧秀恩市長是像媽媽一樣在罵你這個兒子嗎也許彭部長的媽媽是這樣罵他我的媽媽是沒有這樣罵我所以你覺得盧秀恩這樣罵你嗎像罵兒子一樣罵你嗎盧市長是不是如何罵他的孩子我也不知道"},{"start":191.316,"end":218.96,"text":"彭部長說卢市長罵你就像媽媽罵兒子一樣你這句話你不敢回答所以我說嘛彭部長的媽媽你連一個不認同都說不出口不是啦 彭部長的媽媽也許這樣罵他彭部長媽媽怎麼罵他家的事啦也許他認為就像我問你今天你有沒有覺得盧秀恩像媽媽一樣罵你啦我的媽媽沒有這樣罵我你的媽媽沒有這樣罵你那是你們家的事情啦我也沒辦法干涉啦我也不知道盧市長如何罵他的小孩我也不知道"},{"start":220.967,"end":229.183,"text":"院長你如果真的覺得這種狡辯的方式你可以讓台灣人民覺得你有回答問題我也欣賞你"},{"start":230.233,"end":248.463,"text":"我看民進黨這一年來就呈現你這種鬼打牆的狡辯方式你現在要我去我三段論問你彭啟明是不是在節目上說盧秀燕罵你像媽媽罵兒子一樣很兇很漢這是事實問題有沒有他有這麼講謝謝嘛第二個事實問題"},{"start":251.385,"end":274.742,"text":"今天盧修遠在行政院院會對卓榮泰像媽媽罵兒子一樣罵得很兇很汗嗎我不知道他是如何罵他小孩我怎麼會知道他怎麼會罵他小孩他有沒有罵你很兇很汗我媽媽沒有這樣罵我他有沒有罵你很兇很汗他沒有我們在謝謝他沒有我們在會上謝謝謝謝我得到我的答案了我只是希望說他能夠針對答案謝謝你不用改口了"},{"start":276.917,"end":301.997,"text":"他們罵你很兇很憨再來講一次你剛講沒有要改口給你最後一次機會改口我說他如何罵他小孩我不知道我不管你爸爸媽媽了啦我現在只問他們罵你很兇很憨有沒有你一直要給我亂扯什麼媽媽像不像媽媽你要給我搞這個邏輯遊戲沒關係我斷這個邏輯斷掉我只問他們罵你很兇很憨有沒有我們那天就事論事討論事項就沒有嘛語氣上面我有請他說不要在這裡"},{"start":303.799,"end":323.371,"text":"你真的 你們本來行政院發言還否認說你沒有叫他你沒有去叫什麼不要創造聲量說搞到半天 原來是你指示彭部長啊你認為盧秀燕創造聲量 是這個意思嗎我只是說他 請他能夠停止發言 我要跟院長說 我有問他一句話我要跟院長說抱歉齁 畢仁在下齁 也在政府服務過"},{"start":328.986,"end":353.597,"text":"國民黨執政行政院院會不會有這種事情不會有閣員到節目上去攻擊陳其邁 攻擊賴清德攻擊民進黨的地方首長啦我那天有請問 盧市長你是不是不支持追加餘順 我也問他這句話我現在已經跳題了 你還不翻篇啊我告訴你 兩個政府的高下 格局 格調可見一般 讓人民公平來 詳情教你下一題"},{"start":354.497,"end":375.537,"text":"我想請教 院長你也承認今年總預算史上最高嘛 對不對我看你答詢的時候講過啊六都都是史上最高對 很好 你就說有新增項目兩千多億嘛 對不對兩千八百零六億那我不客氣的講你這話說跟沒說一樣哪一個政府沒有新增項目啊所以史上最高不是最過啊沒關係 最後面要講史上最高不是最過我下一題問你 我這一題要問你我想請問"},{"start":378.54,"end":403.117,"text":"貴院今年史上最高就是事實嘛 沒錯嘛你有沒有聽過一句話就是被人家傳為接你部長隔奎的人選蔣萬事長推薦的童子鞋他說不會辭家就換人啦你認不認同這句話不會辭家就換人 有沒有認同這句話不會什麼不會辭家就換人啦這句話放諸世來皆準非常好 放諸世來皆準希望放在你身上不要準啦"},{"start":406.357,"end":430.694,"text":"馬總統執政時候編列的最低總預算是多少2009年1.81兆編列最高總預算是多少2016年1.99兆蔡英文執政時編列最低的總預算是多少2017年1.97兆最高是多少2024年2.88兆就算算進統三"},{"start":432.83,"end":453.847,"text":"在總統任命的您行政院總預算2.92還比馬英九總統時候高出9300億就馬英九總統最高的總預算也高出9300億比蔡英文最高的總預算也高出400億別的政府都能夠拿比較低的預算做事你不能 抱歉啊我覺得童子賢講的話很適用在你身上啊"},{"start":454.727,"end":469.667,"text":"不會持家就換人嘛2025年的事情你拿到2008年去比嗎拜託你啊我拿了還有一個叫2024年啊2024年你也不認2005年的事情拿到2008年抱歉我講的是2016年的事耶"},{"start":470.688,"end":487.181,"text":"2016年是蔡總統2016年是2016年馬政府的最高的總預算也比你們要少9300億啊我可以去查一查2016年馬總統當年的總預算在當時是不是也是史上最高"},{"start":488.495,"end":500.279,"text":"當時我跟你講我說過每個政府最高是一回事我抱歉喔不是每一年都最高喔不是每一年都最高我看過喔也有低也有這年比去年少的有喔有喔來啦來啦我告訴你啦"},{"start":505.322,"end":521.158,"text":"從所謂的1.9兆變成是2.9兆多了快要1兆這樣子你告訴我說經濟成長沒關係我再問你下一個問題你再報告說史上最高預算不是最過嘛對不對因為地方政府史上預算有很多最高嘛對不對"},{"start":522.319,"end":533.938,"text":"因為我們在編今年預算的時候賴總統有指示我們不編特別預算我認同你史上最高預算不是最過嘛你只要強調這件事我就認同啦來來來但亂花錢總是最過吧"},{"start":537.133,"end":562.799,"text":"如果沒有準決預算的話會違反我們整個施政的理念我聽你報告說你為什麼不刪中央政府總預算卻把638億全部轉給地方政府因為你實在挪不出空間嘛你今天答詢說的嘛 對不對我們已經被刪了1439億你少來啦 1430多億其中1000億是台電的那個補助啦剩下的錢是我們一下一下覺得政府我們該拿掉的統刪就是636億要你去動的啦"},{"start":564.939,"end":590.044,"text":"所以你不要再玩數字遊戲沒關係 我們就拿這636億來這636億是不是全部刪地方政府的補助款 是不是我們是拖減地方政府的補助款天啊 這你都答不出來你就全砍地方政府 拖減25%啊總共刪636億啊 這個你也不敢回答沒有錯啊謝謝你嘛 為什麼繞那麼多圈來 你找不出空間你就推給地方政府啊"},{"start":591.5,"end":617.076,"text":"這是什麼擔當跟肩膀來沒關係我再說問你喔你是不是說因為行政院不是魔術師對不對你說過啦陳其邁跟黃偉哲就是魔術師你推給他們他們就該死那你又說行政院不是印鈔機你講的嘛沒錯吧奇怪了那蔣萬安跟盧秀恩他們就開印鈔機啊所以我們16361就可以丟給他我們請地方跟中央共體時間我跟你講我今天公道一點跟院長說啦"},{"start":620.448,"end":643.2,"text":"636億齁如果你今天講說真的立法院刪的不對立法院刪的我們實在受不了那我跟你講那這樣子我們努力擠200億啦刪中央啦400億刪地方啦或是400億刪中央啦200億刪地方啦齁我都覺得你還有那麼一丁點的公道你不是啊你不想當魔術師你叫陳其邁當魔術師啊636億全部刪給地方啊"},{"start":644.04,"end":667.017,"text":"我們已經刪了1430億而且被凍結1400多億裡面1400億是台電的補助而且當時被指名項目而且台電的該不該撥補我們大家另外的辯論題另外剩下是我們每天逐條逐條說哪些預算該刪的你又混同一談統刪部分行政院自行調整總共多少"},{"start":667.577,"end":696.013,"text":"而且被凍結一千多億桶山部分行政凍結幾乎都解凍了你到底要不要翻篇啊當時沒有我看現在都解凍了嘛你要不要翻篇啊那沒關係當時現在都解凍了啊來 今天的卓榮泰你要不要公開跟大家講6361立刻還給地方政府你都講解凍了啊時空一變啊所以現在我們需要能夠回復這個追加預算我們就能夠跟地方你不要追加預算是另外一回事我回頭跟你講"},{"start":697.486,"end":716.804,"text":"你就是已經講清楚6361統三是全部刪地方你就刪一塊錢把行政院刪掉我都還要進行一塊錢的公道你全部都刪地方你今天可以告訴我來你拍胸脯告訴大家你剩下這兩兆九千億沒有一毛錢是浪費的你敢拍出胸脯嗎"},{"start":717.904,"end":740.286,"text":"所以你一塊錢都不願意刪我們會用準結的方式來進行來來來我看你 看你怎麼準結你那麼有自信 沒有浪費準結王宏威介入大資 獨資資本十萬元公司文化部111年 114年給了他一千多萬證交所又給了他一千萬 加起來就兩千萬"},{"start":741.82,"end":757.895,"text":"深圳獨立的音樂人不當側翼的音樂人能拿到你行政院20萬都了不起你給個側翼2000萬你跟我講沒有浪費錢這個部分文化部已經解釋過了文化部解釋過啊來 給社會大眾看看啊"},{"start":758.652,"end":773.507,"text":"你去看看那些真的苦哈哈的獨立音樂製作人看到這一個做影片攻擊在野黨的大資拿兩千萬你跟我講你沒有浪費你說的出口讓人民去聽不聽得下去再來大資投桃報李啊"},{"start":774.708,"end":797.46,"text":"罷免期間做影片修理在野黨啊如果民進黨政府你不要拿人民的納稅錢去養側翼這兩千萬就省下來了你的636億你就有兩千萬你不要去砍地方政府那我想請問你不去檢討這些側翼的錢你刪了一方性補助款你知道刪掉什麼錢嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":800.112,"end":821.23,"text":"兒童、老年、少年身心障礙的福利經費教育經費、人本交通、人行道改善、道路交通改善你刪的都叫救命錢啊這裡面有900億的證據裁員的部分因為地方政府已經我講6361你不要跟我扯到別的地方去所以我們真的刪減是一般性的補助啊刪一般性補助還沒有刪到"},{"start":821.77,"end":829.318,"text":"福利沒有算到交通建設沒有算到教育那裡面有900億的 900億的爭域我問你這633億不要再跳針沒關係我告訴你你這個光交通經費是攸關人命"},{"start":836.687,"end":864.27,"text":"你今天為了養大隻你一毛錢不肯去刪你去全部刪一個地方大隻是一回事來我們沒有去養任何的零日供給2022到2024年就業安定基金可以拿到2800萬的補助然後呢包括九把刀他的國片輔導金幾千萬幾千萬拿加起來起碼超過6000萬"},{"start":866.451,"end":884.606,"text":"結果呢 大罷免很乖啊 這些人都出來跳出來挺大罷免啊政府的合法法要滿滿啊我回頭最後一句話 時間也不多啦今天你真的是一個公道的院長齁我告訴你你636億齁 你不會全部刪地方啦"},{"start":885.373,"end":905.842,"text":"你不要跟我講行政院沒有一毛錢值得檢討你就算只刪行政院一塊錢我都還覺得你有檢討一塊錢行政院現在還有五億被凍結不是啊五億啊兩兆九千億跟我講五億凍結行政院還有五億被凍結兩兆九千億跟我講五億凍結你不檢討一下這五億為什麼被凍結我講六三六億你講五億"},{"start":909.924,"end":919.352,"text":"我們還有無意被動 沒關係我知道啦你答不出來一直轉焦點可是我告訴你 你可以不用理我啦25比0就是因為今天你們行政院這種蠻憨的態度25比0啦 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝羅志強委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（16時49分）主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。一般性補助款的風波我看已經燒進行政院院會，我有一些問題要請教，我想請教院長，行政院院會之所以邀請地方政府的原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院院會……"],["羅委員智強：對，為什麼邀請地方政府？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們邀請地方是以六都首長為邀請的對象，請他們來陳述地方對中央的一些期待，或者反映地方的民情，讓中央能夠對第一線的了解更清楚。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，就是中央、地方強化溝通，對不對？攜手為人民做事，絕對不會是鴻門宴嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：從來不是。"],["羅委員智強：從來不是，非常好，從來不是用鴻門宴來鬥地方首長，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：從來不是。"],["羅委員智強：非常好。盧秀燕市長在這個月14號參加行政院院會，他就是要為地方政府爭取被行政院刪掉的一般性補助款，該不該刪我們待會討論，但是就一個地方政府的市長，他來爭取他的一般性補助款，請問是不是他的本職？"],["卓院長榮泰：盧市長當天在院會是針對地方對於一些補助款的事項及其他的事情提出他的……"],["羅委員智強：我先講嘛！他爭取一般性補助款，請問是不是他的本職？"],["卓院長榮泰：這一點我聽到了。"],["羅委員智強：非常好啊！他爭取是他的本職啊！結果隔天你們的彭啓明部長上電視節目說盧秀燕對卓院長很不客氣，像媽媽在罵兒子，很兇、很悍啊！我想請教，彭部長的發言是您授意的嗎？叫他去節目上講的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你知道院長不會授意彭部長……"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道你不會授意啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：或任何的部長去做什麼樣的發言。"],["羅委員智強：我再問你下一件事情，行政院院會內的內容，用他的片面之詞在節目上去揭之於眾，用他的方式去解讀說盧秀燕很兇、很悍，請問院長，你覺得這樣做是對的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長在院會裡面的感受，我沒有辦法一一的跟他們做了解溝通……"],["羅委員智強：你是院長耶！我只問你對這件事情你覺得妥不妥當，你還跟我講說他的感受如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！部長……"],["羅委員智強：他的感受如果不能夠符合行政院……去破壞行政院院會的和諧，你說院長有沒有責任稍微去……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啦！他……"],["羅委員智強：提點一下啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他形容的方式，我沒有辦法去約束他，也許……"],["羅委員智強：好，我問你，他形容的方式你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：也許他的媽媽是這樣罵他的。"],["羅委員智強：我問你，他形容的方式你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["羅委員智強：他形容的方式，你認同嗎？你覺得盧秀燕市長是像媽媽一樣在罵你這個兒子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：也許彭部長的媽媽是這樣罵他啦！我的媽媽是沒有這樣罵我。"],["羅委員智強：我說你覺得盧秀燕像罵兒子一樣罵你嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：盧市長是如何罵他的孩子，我也不知道啊！"],["羅委員智強：彭部長說盧市長罵你就像媽媽罵兒子一樣，這句話你不敢回答？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說嘛！彭部長的媽媽也許是這樣……"],["羅委員智強：你連一個不認同都說不出口！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是啦！彭部長的媽媽也許是這樣罵他啊！"],["羅委員智強：彭部長的媽媽怎麼罵他是他家的事啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：也許他認為就是這樣罵他。"],["羅委員智強：我問你，你有沒有覺得盧秀燕像媽媽一樣罵你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我的媽媽沒有這樣罵我。"],["羅委員智強：你的媽媽有沒有這樣罵你是你們家的事情，我也沒辦法干涉啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不知道盧市長如何罵他的小孩，我也不知道啊！"],["羅委員智強：院長，你如果真的覺得這種狡辯的方式……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這是真的啊！"],["羅委員智強：你可以讓臺灣人民覺得你有回答問題，我也欣賞你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：就真的不是啊！"],["羅委員智強：我看民進黨這一年來就是呈現你這種鬼打牆的狡辯方式……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，你現在要我去……"],["羅委員智強：我三段式問你，彭啓明是不是在節目上說盧秀燕罵你像媽媽罵兒子一樣，很兇、很悍，這是事實問題，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：他有這麼講。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是……"],["羅委員智強：第二個事實問題，盧秀燕有在行政院院會對卓榮泰像媽媽罵兒子一樣，罵得很兇、很悍嗎？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道他是如何罵他的小孩，我怎麼會知道。"],["羅委員智強：他怎麼罵他的小孩……他有沒有罵你很兇、很悍？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的媽媽沒有這樣罵我。"],["羅委員智強：他有沒有罵你很兇、很悍？"],["卓院長榮泰：他沒有……我們在……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，他沒有！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在會上就事論事。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝、謝謝，我得到我的答案了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我只是希望他能夠針對……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，不用改口了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有說……"],["羅委員智強：不用改口……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有說他罵我……"],["羅委員智強：他有沒有罵你很兇、很悍？再來講一次，你剛剛講沒有，要改口，給你最後一次機會改口。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說他如何罵他的小孩，我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：我不管你媽媽不媽媽了啦！我現在只問你，他有沒有罵你很兇、很悍？有沒有？你一直要給我亂扯什麼像不像媽媽，你要給我搞一個邏輯遊戲，沒關係，我斷這個邏輯，斷掉！我只問，他有沒有罵你很兇、很悍？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們那天就事論事討論事項。"],["羅委員智強：就沒有嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：語氣上面，我有請他不要在這裡講出這個……"],["羅委員智強：你真的……本來行政院發言人還否認說你沒有叫他什麼不要去創造聲量，搞了半天，原來是你指示彭部長啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有指示彭部長。"],["羅委員智強：你認為盧秀燕創造聲量，是這個意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有指示彭部長，我只是請他能夠停止發言，我們討論……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟院長說……"],["卓院長榮泰：我有問他一句話……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟院長說……"],["卓院長榮泰：我問盧市長說你是不是不支持追加預算。"],["羅委員智強：抱歉，敝人在下也在政府服務過，國民黨執政，行政院院會不會有這種事情，不會有閣員到節目上去攻擊陳其邁、攻擊賴清德、攻擊民進黨的地方首長啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我那天有請問盧市長「你是不是不支持追加預算」，我有問他這一句話。"],["羅委員智強：我現在已經跳題了，你還不翻篇啊！我告訴你，兩個政府的高下、格局、格調，可見一斑，讓人民公平。","想請教你下一題，院長，你也承認今年的總預算是史上最高，對不對？我看你答詢時有講過。"],["卓院長榮泰：六都都是史上最高。"],["羅委員智強：對，很好，你說有新增項目兩千多億，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：2,806億。"],["羅委員智強：那我不客氣的講，你這話說得跟沒說一樣，哪一個政府沒有新增項目啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以史上最高不是罪過啊！"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，這後面會講，「史上最高不是罪過」我下一題會問你。我這一題要問你，貴院今年史上最高就是事實，沒錯嘛！你有沒有聽過一句話？就是被人家傳接你閣揆的人選，蔣萬安市長推薦的童子賢說：「不會持家就換人啦！」你認不認同這句話？不會持家就換人，有沒有認同這句話？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會什麼？"],["羅委員智強：不會持家就換人啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話放諸四海皆準。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！放諸四海皆準，希望放在你的身上不要準啦！再來我要問，馬總統執政時編列的最低總預算是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有辦法現在答復你這樣的數字。"],["羅委員智強：2009年1.81兆，編列的最高總預算是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有辦法……"],["羅委員智強：2016年1.99兆，蔡英文執政時編列的最低總預算是多少？2017年1.97兆，最高是多少？2024年2.88兆。好，就算算進統刪，賴總統任命的您，行政院編列的總預算是2.92兆，還比馬英九總統執政時高出9,300億，就算是馬英九總統時期的最高總預算，你也高出9,300億，也比蔡英文時期的最高總預算高出400億。別的政府都能夠拿比較低的預算做事，你不能？抱歉啊！我覺得童子賢講的話很適用在你身上，不會持家就換人嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：2025年的事情你拿到2008年去比嗎？"],["羅委員智強：我拜託你啊！我拿的還有一個2024年啦！2024年你也不認？2005年的事情拿到……抱歉，我講的是2016年的事。"],["卓院長榮泰：2016年是蔡總統的時代。"],["羅委員智強：就算是2016年馬政府最高的總預算也比你們要少9,300億。"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以去查一查2016年馬總統當年的總預算，在當時是不是也是史上最高。"],["羅委員智強：我說過每個政府史上最高是一回事。"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！要看內容有什麼。"],["羅委員智強：抱歉喔！不是每一年都最高喔！不是每一年都最高，我看過喔！也有低的，也有這一年比去年少的，都有喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟成長如果高的話，我們必須付出更多的經濟建設……"],["羅委員智強：來啦、來啦，我告訴你啦，從所謂的1.9兆變成2.9兆，多了快要1兆，這樣子你告訴我說是經濟成長？沒關係，我再問你下一個問題，你在報告說史上最高預算不是罪過，對不對？因為地方政府的預算也有很多史上最高，對不對？你是不是這樣講？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們在編今年預算的時候，賴總統有指示，我們不編特別預算。"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我告訴你，我就認同你嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不編特別預算。"],["羅委員智強：我認同你「史上最高預算不是罪過」，你一直要強調這件事，我就認同啦！但亂花錢總是罪過吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有撙節預算的話，會違反我們整個施政的理念。"],["羅委員智強：很好啊！我聽你報告說你為什麼不刪中央政府總預算，卻把636億全部轉嫁給地方政府，是因為你實在挪不出空間，你今天答詢說的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經被刪了1,439億。"],["羅委員智強：你少來啦！一千四百三十多億，其中1,000億是台電的補助，剩下的錢是我們一項一項討論覺得政府該拿掉的，統刪就是636億，要你去動的……"],["卓院長榮泰：統刪刪掉303億。"],["羅委員智強：你不要給我玩數字遊戲！沒關係，我們就拿這636億來看，這636億你是不是全部都是刪地方政府的補助款，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是酌減地方政府的補助款。"],["羅委員智強：天啊！這你都答不出來，你就是全砍地方政府，酌減25%，總共刪636億啊！這個你也不敢回答？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，沒有錯啊！"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，為什麼繞那麼多圈？來，你找不出空間，你就推給地方政府，這是什麼擔當跟肩膀？沒關係，我再問你，你是不是說因為行政院不是魔術師，對不對？你說過的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：陳其邁跟黃偉哲就是魔術師？你推給他們，他們就該死？你又說行政院不是印鈔機，你講的，沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：奇怪了，蔣萬安跟盧秀燕就開印鈔機？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們是……"],["羅委員智強：你636億就可以丟給他們？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是請地方跟中央共體時艱。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我今天公道一點跟院長說啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["羅委員智強：636億，如果你今天講說：真的，立法院刪的不對，立法院刪的你們實在受不了！我跟你講，那我們努力擠200億刪中央的，400億刪地方的，或是400億刪中央，200億刪地方，我都覺得你還有那麼一丁點的公道，但你不是啊！你不想當魔術師，你叫陳其邁當魔術師！636億全部刪地方的！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經刪了1,439億，而且被凍結……"],["羅委員智強：你又來跟我搞數字遊戲！一千四百多億裡面有1,000億是台電的補助，指名項目，而且台電的該不該撥補，這是我們大家另外的辯論題。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且當時被……"],["羅委員智強：另外剩下是我們每天逐條逐條說哪些預算該刪的，你就混同一談？"],["卓院長榮泰：而且被凍結一千……"],["羅委員智強：統刪部分行政院自行調整總共多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：而且被凍結一千多億。"],["羅委員智強：來啦，統刪部分行政……凍結幾乎都解凍了……"],["卓院長榮泰：當時沒有。"],["羅委員智強：你到底要不要翻篇啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：當時沒有。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你現在都解凍了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：當時我們只知道……"],["羅委員智強：你要不要翻篇啦？沒關係，當時的現在都解凍了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：當時……"],["羅委員智強：來，今天卓榮泰要不要公開跟大家講636億立刻還給地方政府，你都講解凍了啊？時空已變啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：當時沒有，所以現在我們希望能夠回復這個追加預算，我們就能夠跟地方……"],["羅委員智強：你不要跟我……追加預算是另外一回事，我回頭跟你講，你就是已經講清楚636億統刪是全部刪地方，你就算刪1塊錢，把行政院刪掉，我都還覺得你有1塊錢的公道，但你全部都刪地方，你今天可以告訴我……來，你拍胸脯告訴大家，你剩下這2兆9,000億沒有1毛錢是浪費的，你敢拍胸脯嗎？所以你1塊錢都不願意刪？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會用撙節的方式來執行每一筆……"],["羅委員智強：撙節！來，來，我看你怎麼撙節，你那麼有自信，沒有浪費，會撙節！王鴻薇揭露大支獨資資本額10萬公司，文化部111年到114年給了他一千多萬；證交所又給他1,000萬，加起來就2,000萬，真正獨立的音樂人、不當側翼的音樂人，能拿到你行政院20萬都了不起，你給個側翼2,000萬跟我講沒有浪費錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分文化部已經解釋過了。"],["羅委員智強：文化部解釋過？來，給社會大眾看看，你去看看那些真的苦哈哈的獨立音樂製作人，看到這一個做影片攻擊在野黨的大支拿2,000萬，你跟我講沒有浪費？你說得出口，但人民聽不聽得下去？再來，大支投桃報李，罷免期間做影片修理在野黨。如果民進黨政府不要拿人民的納稅錢去養側翼，這2,000萬就省下來了，這636億就有2,000萬，不要去砍地方政府。","我想請問，你不去檢討這些側翼的錢，你刪了一般性補助款，你知道刪掉什麼錢嗎？你知道嗎？兒童、老年、少年、身心障礙的福利經費，教育經費，人本交通行人人行道改善、道路交通改善，你刪的都叫救命錢啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這裡面有900億增裕財源的部分，因為地方政府已經……"],["羅委員智強：我講636億，你不要給我扯到別的地方去，我講的是636。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們真的刪減一般性的補助啊！"],["羅委員智強：刪一般性補助款沒有刪到福利、沒有刪到交通建設、沒有刪到教育？"],["卓院長榮泰：那裡面有900億的增裕財源。"],["羅委員智強：我問你那636億，你不要給我跳針。沒關係，我告訴你，光刪交通經費就是攸關人命欸！你今天為了養大支，1毛錢不肯刪，全部刪地方，大支是一回事……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有去養任何的文化人……"],["羅委員智強：再來，零日攻擊從2022到2024年，就業安定基金可以拿到2,800萬的補助，包括九把刀，他的國片輔導金幾千萬、幾千萬拿，加起來起碼超過6,000萬，結果呢大罷免很乖啊，這些人都跳出來挺大罷免啊！政府合法的飯要滿滿啊！我回頭最後一句話，時間也不多啦，今天你若真的是一個公道的院長，我告訴你，你636億不會全部刪地方啦，你不要跟我講行政院沒有1毛錢值得檢討，你就算只刪行政院1塊錢，我都還覺得你有檢討1塊錢，但你不是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院現在還有5億被凍結。"],["羅委員智強：2兆9,000億，你跟我講5億凍結？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院院本部現在還有5億被凍結。"],["羅委員智強：2兆9,000億，你跟我講5億凍結？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，你說……"],["羅委員智強：你不檢討一下這5億為什麼被凍結？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說1塊錢都沒有刪。"],["羅委員智強：我講636億，你講5億？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們行政院還有5億被凍結。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我知道啦，你答不出來一直轉移焦點，可是我告訴你，你可以不用理我啦，25比0就是因為今天你們行政院這種顢頇的態度，25比0啦，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長備詢。","接下來登記第19號陳培瑜委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳培瑜書面質詢：","立法院第十一屆第二會期，台灣民眾黨黨主席黃國昌於記者會上揚言：「我保證刪到國人有感」，隨後引發一系列凍刪預算之亂。時至今日，再過兩周即將邁入下一個預算會期，惟當時在野黨胡亂凍刪預算的後果，仍由中央各機關部會、地方縣市政府以及全國人民承擔，以至於今日仍需在國會殿堂處理預算刪凍衍生地方一般性補助款相關事宜，實非國家之幸。","有鑑於在114年度中央政府總預算案中，總預算額度刪減總額為2,076億元。其中，藍白兩黨通過立法院決議，要求通案額度不低於940億元，刪減未足額之636億元部分，須由行政院自行調減金額。雖行政院嗣後向立法院提出覆議，但立法院仍維持原決議。","有鑑於行政院後續決議以通案調減地方一般性補助款之因應措施，陳培瑜委員僅就下列事項提出書面質詢，惠請行政院給予書面回應：","一、通案刪減一般性補助款之合法性","行政院補助地方縣市政府「一般性補助款」之法律性質為何？其補助的項目以及額度是否為固定，亦或者得以彈性調整？若可彈性調整，通案刪減是否有違法之虞？","二、刪減項目","行政院通案刪減地方一般性補助款之具體項目為何？是否刪減到地方必要性支出，亦或是先就未設定用途，或可彈性運用之經費項目予以通案刪減？","三、刪減額度","有鑑於網路上有輿情指出，行政院於113年地方一般性補助款補助額度為8,946億元，114年度未通案刪減前補助額度為1兆151億元，縱使通案刪減636億元後的9,495億元仍高於113年度的補助額度，請問是否為真？","四、地方補助額度與地方政府總預算差距","通案刪減636億元分配到各縣市的刪減額度為何？若依行政院估計，台北市預計刪減38億，占114年度台北市總預算2,024億約1.88%、新北市預計刪減30億，占114年度新北市總預算2,224億約1.35%、台中市預計刪減32億，占114年度台北市總預算1,908億約1.67%，是否對地方政府施政造成衝擊？"],["主席：再接下來，我們本日最後一位登記質詢委員，請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","黃國昌","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱鎮軍","陳亭妃","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","張雅琳","賴惠員","王正旭","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2025-08-19"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00004","1147101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費\n等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}