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當中降稅從一百零六年實施以來．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2260.404,"end":2262.585,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":2290.422,"end":2291.023,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2315.563,"end":2343.155,"text":"各位同仁剛才財政部已經表達的立場就是說是行政版本我們今天在協商裡面當然我們也看到各位看到民進黨委員有李昆成委員為四年各位是兩年民進黨全部支持行政版我們就是說三年這是我們的立場希望大家能夠把這個事情趕快完成"},{"start":2343.935,"end":2347.738,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2367.428,"end":2392.171,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言那民進黨所有的版本已經彙整全部支持行政院版本三年接下來請國民黨團請表達意見好謝謝院長我想各位黨員幹部增加國家的稅收那我想我們都一定是同意的尤其讓股市的交易量能夠增加那讓我們的稅數能夠更多本黨絕對是同意的"},{"start":2392.871,"end":2393.792,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2416.725,"end":2425.64,"text":"謝謝國民黨團的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨團請發言那各財政委員會的請稍待我們先請黨團幹部表達意見之後再請各位列席的財政委員會委員請表達請黃珊珊委員請表達意見"},{"start":2428.542,"end":2453.067,"text":"法院長,我想臺灣民眾黨在這個辦案子裡面沒有提修正版本,主要是因為行政院在提升台股的動能在一百零六年就開始實施了。那,不可否認,的確這個當沖減稅刺激了股市的交易量,而且增加了流通性,那也有創造政府證交稅的效果,我覺得這個是還不錯,而且狀況也很好,但是現在已經變成有點像"},{"start":2453.667,"end":2461.213,"text":"條文修正三條文修正第七條文修正三條文修正第七條文修正三條文修正第七條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":2477.887,"end":2478.928,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2500.04,"end":2501.762,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2516.135,"end":2518.396,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":2538.353,"end":2541.234,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":2565.715,"end":2590.686,"text":"我剛剛聽了黃商務委員的話你們變成兩個集團啦你的提案是要把主人降低嘛這是一個方案那你現在又說要常態化我們要先去釐清是哪一個東西我說如果那是財政部要回答的你要到底要常態化還是要什麼你要說清楚財政部要不要回答一次不是三年送來一次啦你聽我講啦"},{"start":2592.347,"end":2595.069,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":2620.652,"end":2622.353,"text":"條例第四條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2652.045,"end":2671.495,"text":"我是這樣建議啦,因為我們通常要兩邊都講對面的,但我希望今天我們這個都是所有國民在等待嘛,年齡到了嘛,不可能說不搞了嘛,當然是這樣嘛。好,謝謝柯建民總召,接下來李崑辰委員請發言,羅秘財委員請準備。"},{"start":2674.636,"end":2679.399,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":2703.453,"end":2714.162,"text":"條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文修正第三十條條文"},{"start":2724.051,"end":2726.313,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2737.145,"end":2761.881,"text":"好,謝謝羅明財委員發言,請林竹英委員請發言。謝謝主席,我想echo一下我們的羅明財委員,因為當時在委員會的朝野協商的時候,我羅明財委員還有山山委員其實我們都有在朝野協商的。那麼我的版本是三年,我們知道主席為什麼會今天排定是因為今天十二月十號,距離這個目前如果不修法的話,"},{"start":2762.401,"end":2764.242,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2786.693,"end":2787.333,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2802,"end":2804.021,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":2825.635,"end":2827.256,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2852.805,"end":2855.607,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":2880.726,"end":2905.296,"text":"麻煩請彭主委請是主席剛剛有關莊部長的這個那個內容喔今晚會多支持剛剛羅委員有提到說當年我們是今年四月的時候我們有提送一個意見給財政部當時我們建議五年不過這個租稅的考量是由財政部來決定那後來我們也大概同意是三年是行政版本所以我們也覺得這個是一個非常恰當的再來就是"},{"start":2905.896,"end":2908.918,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":2929.036,"end":2955.638,"text":"好那個院長我剛剛那個柯總要講的我再講一遍我們其實不太清楚財政部跟金管會他們的政策目標所以我才要問說你到底是要常態化還是你要每三年送一次這是第一個問題第二個就是我們對於年限我們也是支持這樣所以我們版本才會還是一樣延長三年只是說要不要四五年遞減而已這個是我們原來修法的利益就是說你目標清楚了你才知道接下去要做的事"},{"start":2956.258,"end":2958.819,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":2985.672,"end":3002.512,"text":"如果這個政策目標已經是常態化成為一個常態了那將來的修法是不是就把它常態化而不是每三年送一個大家為什麼要每三年來討論一次這種事情我也覺得很奇怪啦當然政策方向是一樣金管會當然希望長一點"},{"start":3002.972,"end":3003.733,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3026.275,"end":3043.981,"text":"反正委員這個附帶經驗還沒講,跟他還沒講以前我就講過了,因為我聽他講話知道這是一個專業評估。執行委員、台北政經理市長剛剛都很了解,我以前也當過政經理公司董事長,因為台北當立委以前,所以我"},{"start":3044.961,"end":3056.548,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3067.034,"end":3069.255,"text":"三條之二條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3095.834,"end":3099.48,"text":"今天我看了大家一團和氣,很感謝農民財委員說要給當作禮物,這是"},{"start":3105.512,"end":3111.517,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3134.156,"end":3158.739,"text":"林士林幹事長,學長的話絕對不會騙你。蘇理長,你不知道我應該怎麼樣做法案應該怎麼處理,等一下我們再一起討論,但這個先放進去好不好,先拿三組。那個附帶決議大家是不是都已經拿到手上?對,也請行政部門看一下。"},{"start":3162.197,"end":3168.22,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":3185.327,"end":3189.268,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3210.732,"end":3213.856,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":3231.896,"end":3234.918,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3259.098,"end":3268.23,"text":"那個財政部部長請問您看那個是我們沒有其他的意見謝謝監管會我們同意謝謝好的好的好請吳思堯請吳思堯幹事長"},{"start":3271.249,"end":3272.27,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3288.658,"end":3292.641,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":3316.517,"end":3318.579,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3335.06,"end":3337.742,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3354.036,"end":3357.459,"text":"條文修正草案。」等案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3381.119,"end":3406.218,"text":"當日沖銷交易稅執行效果建立評估指標及受惠對象分析並明定三年後期望達成之目標以確保國家給予稅負優惠之公平性及有效性。」請問各位黨團幹部對我們再一次附帶決議有沒有寶貴意見?沒有,好。那我們現在做出黨團協商的結論時間一百一三年十二月十日"},{"start":3408.303,"end":3426.696,"text":"我們第十六條條文如果大家沒有意見我們就不予修正好不好好不予修正好我們先念一下協商的我們今天的結論請各位黨團幹部也稍微在各位的手上請大家看一下我來念時間一百三年十二月十日星期二下午兩點三十分"},{"start":3427.577,"end":3455.527,"text":"我們協商的主題一、本月財政委員會報告並案審查行政院行情審議委員賴世寶等二十五位、吳立華等十九位、賴會員等三十七位、蔡易瑜等十六位分別凝聚《證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案》台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚《證券交易稅條例部分條文修正草案》羅明財等二十位委員"},{"start":3456.667,"end":3474.268,"text":"（林柱英等十九位委員（李坤成等二十二位委員（分別凝聚《證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案》（及邱志偉等十九位委員（凝聚《證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案案》。"},{"start":3475.129,"end":3500.4,"text":"條院會近乎二讀並按協商郭國文等十七位委員凝聚政卷交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案。（我們協商的結論一、第二條之二條文照行政院提案通過。（二、第十六條條文維持現行條文。（三、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。（四、新增加附帶決議一項如復建。（"},{"start":3502.441,"end":3527.45,"text":"各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒有意見,好,我已經簽字,請各位黨團幹部幫大家依序來簽字,請。好,謝謝各位黨團幹部,我們現在來進入我們第二案。我們現在研商地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案,由國民黨黨團提議。"},{"start":3531.121,"end":3552.576,"text":"我們研商的主題是,現在發到各位手上沒有?我們第二案,好,謝謝啊,謝謝彭主委,謝謝各位列席官員,好,謝謝謝謝,請微笑離開,微笑離開,好好好"},{"start":3565.193,"end":3567.256,"text":"條例第二條之二條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3580.384,"end":3583.065,"text":"本案經財政委員會一百三年五月六日會同內政委員會舉行第十一屆"},{"start":3608.547,"end":3621.351,"text":"第一會及財政內政委員會第一次聯席會議進行審查,審查結果全案保留。（另外於一百一三年十二、三日由陳玉珍委員召集召開朝野黨團協商並沒有達成共識。（"},{"start":3623.692,"end":3641.211,"text":"那我們現在要請各黨團代表（所以列席的專部長以及各位列席的官員（分別就本次協商主題（地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案（請大家來表達寶貴的意見請柯總召請這個案子是"},{"start":3642.674,"end":3643.315,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3662.435,"end":3664.136,"text":"三條條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3684.247,"end":3684.748,"text":"等案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3705.571,"end":3723.262,"text":"被課稅的礦場,他有不同意見,打過行政法院高層都打過,萬先有輸的。」但是呢,我們在這裡要談的就是說,既然是國民黨黨團提議,請陳一尊委員說明一下,你先講一下後來的事情怎麼聽到,你們的態度立場是怎麼樣嘛。好,接下來請國民黨團陳一尊委員請發言。"},{"start":3732.702,"end":3744.44,"text":"這個在委員會我主持的討論的時候財政部的口頭表間是對修法沒有意見換句話說行政部門是沒有反對意見的但是是民進黨團認為還要討論所以才交付協商"},{"start":3747.585,"end":3749.786,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":3776.024,"end":3776.764,"text":"等案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3803.148,"end":3804.43,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3818.311,"end":3818.732,"text":"沈博洋委員請發言"},{"start":3838.715,"end":3866.204,"text":"我稍微聚焦一下就是說因為這一次是福坑協委員跟賴社保委員的提案那他們因為他們有插了最後一項他們最後一項一個有一個沒有啦那這個最後一項其實文字並沒有太大的問題但它有兩個小問題第一個就是在立法例上面比較少這樣規定這是第一個因為第三條本來就不適用啦然後第二個就是還是回歸剛剛不管是這個陳昀哲委員跟柯總召都有提到因為它本來有個個案的存在"},{"start":3866.544,"end":3868.266,"text":"條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3892.267,"end":3892.928,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3917.207,"end":3919.668,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":3934.013,"end":3958.654,"text":"因為他今年有做和解但是不管他有沒有這個情形這會讓別人覺得可能有個案的問題但是其實在文字上面看起來是正常的所以我想說是不是請財政部也針對從這個訴訟一直到現在還有他們的一個意見這樣子謝謝我們再請柯總召發言完請莊部長您稍待柯總召發言完畢以後好嗎好我們次序調一下柯總召發言完黃珊珊委員發言然後再請莊部長好請"},{"start":3962.247,"end":3976.059,"text":"第一,這案子我知之甚詳,因為整個歷史從要寫廣的第三屆的政長稅18年,那時候被判18年,所以他選舉的時候弄了海報,"},{"start":3977.799,"end":3981.18,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":4003.773,"end":4006.534,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4021.493,"end":4026.494,"text":"條文修正三十條文修正三十條文修正三十條文修正三十條文修正三十條"},{"start":4049.54,"end":4065.364,"text":"三條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文修正第三十條之二條文"},{"start":4075.282,"end":4104.529,"text":"三、研商:「尊重行政單位財政部的意見,財政部表示同意,對於委員會的提議沒有意見,所以我們尊重行政單位的看法。」我補充一下,我們在財委會的時候,他們有提出說他們尊重委員會的決議,這也我覺得很奇怪,今天聽起來好像又不是。"},{"start":4105.742,"end":4107.485,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":4121.685,"end":4136.961,"text":"花蓮縣礦石稅的訴訟大概可以分成一百零五年的自治條例一百零九年跟一百一十二年大概有三年的自治條例那一百零五年的部分一共有八期徵訴年期一共有八期其中有五期是判決確定"},{"start":4138.422,"end":4141.985,"text":"條文修正三條文修正第二條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文"},{"start":4164.758,"end":4166.098,"text":"條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4184.648,"end":4186.869,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":4207.737,"end":4208.358,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4232.398,"end":4235.781,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":4247.705,"end":4249.167,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":4266.929,"end":4269.733,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文"},{"start":4284.531,"end":4288.273,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":4314.184,"end":4316.364,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":4337.429,"end":4338.27,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．民進黨團提議．三、研商"},{"start":4365.854,"end":4368.9,"text":"條例第四條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4373.304,"end":4398.86,"text":"謝謝,我想最主要是在於第三項的部分我想第四條的部分的第一項增加了中央所定的地方稅原規定的稅率這幾個文字加進去已經讓這個第四條更為明確了也就是說第四條指的是地方稅但是地方稅的這個稅率是由中央立法來定的比如說房屋稅、地價稅都是中央定的土地稅法還有房屋稅條例來定的稅率在裡面這非常明確"},{"start":4401.442,"end":4401.882,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4422.877,"end":4423.698,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4454.514,"end":4454.734,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4475.766,"end":4501.16,"text":"其實我們對於所謂在前面的文字加中央立法所定那這個非常的清楚因為讓第四條更明確表示中央立法定的一些地方稅的稅率我們把這邊就定下來那麼第三條根本就跟第四條本身沒有關聯性的所以放在這邊體力反而有點怪反而會有點混淆所以我們建議是不需要放這個文字"},{"start":4502.639,"end":4528.934,"text":"你是覺得不需要放在第四條裡頭?那你再講一下好不好?哪一個?我講一下齁?第三條是第三條啦!第四條就第四條啦!第四條就中央立法的部分就是第四條部分!第一條跟第三條到哪一條?不是不需要!是完成立法題完全衝突就不行了!這不是說需要不需要的問題!反正你知道你這個立法都會發生衝突!所以陳義生委員"},{"start":4532.236,"end":4535.578,"text":"三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4559.923,"end":4563.194,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文"},{"start":4563.891,"end":4569.054,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文"},{"start":4592.056,"end":4598.023,"text":"條條文修正第三條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文修正第四條條文"},{"start":4613.538,"end":4617.401,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4628.442,"end":4649.362,"text":"我想這一條財政部也說得不清不楚財政部基本上好像支持第三項但是他說要放在哪裡他這個是沒有很確定其實體力有沒有問題我想法是我們立法者在創的我們在立的其實這一條有它的必要性剛剛部長說沒有必要性"},{"start":4650.023,"end":4650.984,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4665.862,"end":4667.002,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4692.133,"end":4712.489,"text":"我們是要解決問題,不是要製造麻煩,也不是要法律,你聽我講,地方沒有,中央議法部門才有百分之三十的限制,地方都沒有百分之三十,所以第三條沒有加這個的疑惑,所以你把這個東西,"},{"start":4714.15,"end":4716.612,"text":"三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":4726.84,"end":4732.744,"text":"條文修正三十條條文修正三十條條文修正三十條條文修正三十條條文修正三十條條"},{"start":4747.495,"end":4767.562,"text":"法院議員我們休息三分鐘請我再講一次就是說我覺得財政部剛剛講的其實蠻清楚的他的意思是說這一個是你多出來的文字因為第三條指的就是地方的他自己做的這些稅客然後第四條現在如果按照新法中央立法他是中央定的地方稅所以一個有30%一個沒有30%"},{"start":4769.343,"end":4777.287,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正四條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":4796.431,"end":4810.729,"text":"我們提到後再說明你以後裡面我覺得不必啦因為不可能的事情你知道你就除了再說明來說這個不可以第三條不可以這樣放所以那剛才戴斯堡委員演示的題目也是這樣"},{"start":4811.946,"end":4827.365,"text":"那財政部也贊成這樣,所以這個不是說明人的問題,這是立法提議完全衝突的東西。好,我們看的樣子要溝通一下,三分鐘大概不夠,我們休息十分鐘好了,大家跟私底下來溝通一下,好請休息十分鐘。"},{"start":5756.817,"end":5758.578,"text":"謝謝院長我想我再說明一下就是說第四條我們第一項裡面文字加進去的中央立法所訂的地方稅"},{"start":5784.431,"end":5785.132,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5800.775,"end":5827.95,"text":"他並不是中央立法的地方稅。第三條是地方政府基於財政自治的需要他自己去訂了相關的稅客的地方稅。那麼地方稅自然他就沒有第四條的第一項的一個百分之三十規定的一個限制的一個適用的範圍所以這個部分非常明確所以我們認為呢這個第三項呢事實上是一個罪第一個是罪與第二個在體力上也有一些混淆的一個情況以上的補充謝謝請柯總召請"},{"start":5832.082,"end":5847.23,"text":"我想今天是我們草野生以來本屆以來最和諧的一次,那珍惜這個結果,往後是不是能夠如此下去,有待造化,但是造化總是弄人的。"},{"start":5849.844,"end":5871.635,"text":"好,這個事情很單純很簡單,其實當時財政部講過,中央立法的部分的地方稅的話,中央立法的部分,可以加,反正太多加,反正三十,地方立法的地方立法的沒有一趴都不能加,就是這樣明確,所以地方立法的不能加,不能加。"},{"start":5883.264,"end":5906.218,"text":"所以第三條和第四條規範和委員完全不一樣,標的也不一樣。所以把第三條放在第四條的第三項,這是立法體育的衝突。那當然我知道因為這一個案子,提案人一開始是賴司法委員,他們有第三項。"},{"start":5907.259,"end":5922.086,"text":"當然是傅文綺自己又提了第三項出來,那這一部分剛才我講得很清楚就是說沒有關係,傅文綺現在人在香港,明天才把申請做,我們不急這個天,我講的這是比較重要的事情請大家注意聽,我希望就是說我們這個禮拜五,"},{"start":5932.932,"end":5939.536,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":5947.762,"end":5975.437,"text":"第一個剛才講政教稅的部分也應該加入,大家等嘛。然後另外要送送送送公告三天,所以這個一定要禮拜五三讀三讀。禮拜五這個有關地方稅法通則也要完成三讀,我想這個都很靈確。然後我們有關於運動部運動部運動彩券,運彩要抓賭博的。運動彩券要抓賭博的。"},{"start":5977.117,"end":5978.018,"text":"（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":5999.526,"end":6000.747,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6017.235,"end":6020.256,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6035.64,"end":6037.902,"text":"三條之二條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":6052.317,"end":6073.615,"text":"今天這樣差不多,都有共識,副總商來你們比較好決定,我也尊重,尤其民進黨他也很理性,他都同意了。今天是不是學長倒數為十?後面還有啊,交通發展條例啊,還有警察人事條例也是我們非常關心的啊。"},{"start":6079.659,"end":6105.308,"text":"有關於發展觀光條例、警察人員人事還有所謂的這個什麼...這些都是民生法案啊?這些很重要,我知道,很重要。但是呢,今天能夠讓這裡來禮拜五的議程能夠完成,下禮拜要繼續其他才有再來,我以上...拜託不要拾氣一點,你不要再衝了,衝啊,一萬十一、兩萬十三,搞不完啦。"},{"start":6108.677,"end":6114.98,"text":"這禮拜五當然如果民進黨我不是幹部但是我覺得民進黨如果不先發站主席才不會有其他的事情那我們按照原來議程照那天上個禮拜五怎麼排就這樣一直排下去一直討論下去嘛"},{"start":6136.067,"end":6139.029,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6157.921,"end":6162.442,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6183.959,"end":6201.684,"text":"今天已經想大家有共識支持,剩下副問題總召出現,你們就敢簽嘛,就結束了。這樣明天就會是在協商國民事業吧,有三十八項還沒協商。那第三、第四,那時候是議程還在很後面,根本不必,今天講的都白講了,太早了。"},{"start":6212.81,"end":6228.585,"text":"多官員在這邊部長那這樣好不好我們第二條地方稅法通則第四條條文修正我想這個我們就把它暫時保留那現在其實已經談了差不多但是還差最後一點點我想讓大家打成共識那也特別跟部長也報告一下好不好"},{"start":6228.865,"end":6233.127,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6256.553,"end":6273.321,"text":"條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條"},{"start":6286.42,"end":6290.084,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6301.536,"end":6325.425,"text":"你不能國民社會才要協商這個交通條例?你不注重觀光嗎?警察人事條例耶!你不注重警察的退休福利嗎?怎麼會排上?現在才三點四十五,怎麼不能協商呢?你不在乎警察的福利嗎?警察,警示人,警察人員,他們在遠巡啦!而且時間還沒到!民進黨就跑掉!時間還沒到!民進黨就跑掉!"},{"start":6334.37,"end":6336.691,"text":"等案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":6350.322,"end":6352.504,"text":"條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條"},{"start":6366.237,"end":6370.201,"text":"三條之二條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．民進黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6388.28,"end":6392.922,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":6418.991,"end":6420.512,"text":"警察人員人事條例修正第三十"},{"start":6442.935,"end":6444.658,"text":"等案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":6456.155,"end":6460.979,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":6483.797,"end":6487.861,"text":"等案。（民進黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團團提議．國民黨團團提議．國民黨團團提議�"},{"start":6507.213,"end":6511.014,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6527.082,"end":6528.563,"text":"等案。（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6551.877,"end":6557.245,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6563.218,"end":6568.702,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6585.174,"end":6609.942,"text":"我很誠懇的講齁,我為什麼說今天這兩案處理完畢,明天國民事業第三案,那38很快,接下去第三案第三案,我們就接下去,這個是目的。因為我知道你們那幾個案子很急,但是急不來,因為坦白講,我們連議程都還沒排上,根本沒有時間,還沒到那裡。這禮拜五,下禮拜五也不可能齁。"},{"start":6611.022,"end":6611.883,"text":"等案。（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6628.837,"end":6649.869,"text":"我在六月三十年沒有學長大跑的紀錄啦只是這一個情形我告訴大家說明天早上就繼續海上也沒關係好,如果今天海上沒關係我也會去找我有老人家去找但是呢你說剛才那個郭陳...那個...郭總委員跟我講說要分到五點嘛後來五點就五點嘛"},{"start":6652.312,"end":6654.814,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":6677.495,"end":6678.756,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":6701.858,"end":6711.146,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":6723.957,"end":6726.619,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7198.539,"end":7204.204,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":7212.062,"end":7230.239,"text":"今天我們來草野協商發展觀光條例等七個案委員會審查結果一、一百一三年十月十八日共審查一百一十一條條文二、保留條文一條第五十三條三需交由黨團協商我們召集委員"},{"start":7231.621,"end":7251.197,"text":"一、由魯明哲委員於一百三年十月二十九日主持協商（二、再次協商條文及結果（一、五十三條七十條之二（二、協商五共四（我們因此來協商第五三條、第七十條之二（來介紹我們今天列席的（首先歡迎我們交通部陳部長（熱情歡迎您"},{"start":7252.786,"end":7273.884,"text":"好,歡迎教育部的李副處長,文化部的陳副處長,還有國防部、勞動部、農業部、內政部、法務部、司法部,大家一口氣起立吧。好多,歡迎大家,熱情歡迎,請坐。還有今天最主要的觀光署的周署長,請坐。"},{"start":7277.624,"end":7280.185,"text":"條條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案。（國民黨黨提議（"},{"start":7304.975,"end":7308.159,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":7325.418,"end":7328.401,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":7354.551,"end":7356.932,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7370.558,"end":7372.86,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7386.903,"end":7387.243,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7404.758,"end":7405.798,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．"},{"start":7433.594,"end":7456.602,"text":"所以我意思說大家我希望要討論我們就具體的討論充分的交換意見那針對等一下發展觀光條第二條第五十三條第七十之二條我先跟院長做一下報告我現在我的發言是會議詢問等一下進入條文有很多細緻的部分我希望是譬如說我發言的時候我是可以跟這樣子一來一問的"},{"start":7457.562,"end":7484.329,"text":"將比較有助於我們釐清。」好不好,那我現在是進行會議的詢問,所以請這個議事人員跟我們說明一下,院長跟我們說明一下,發展觀光條例到底是哪幾條?是今天協商的標的。今天針對這個協商就兩條,一個五三條,一個七十條之二。第二,國民黨團所遞件的時候是有等案。請大家看第三,研商發展觀光條例第二條及七十條之二條文修正草案等案。所以國民黨團所送出來,我們根據這個。"},{"start":7485.369,"end":7507.236,"text":"這個我還是要確認,你看嘛,剛剛證交稅、證券交易條例第二條之二第十二條也是有等案啊,我意思說以後議事處理上要精緻、要明確,有等案可是你前面還是會把條字寫清楚嘛,可是你現在的confuse就發生在第三項嘛,雖然有等案,可是你把第二條放進來幹嘛?"},{"start":7508.712,"end":7509.973,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7532.383,"end":7533.223,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":7552.947,"end":7554.669,"text":"條文修正第四條條文修正第五條條文修正第二條條文修正第二條條文修正"},{"start":7574.087,"end":7586.573,"text":"條文修正草案第四條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第四條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修正草案第五條條文修"},{"start":7603.32,"end":7621.985,"text":"我們都會按照議程上所列的各條次、條項、事項來。」陳如剛剛跟我們幹事長所說的今天第三案上面寫的條文是哪幾條跟條文有關的相關的人員我們黨團就通知他到場所以黨團也通知我說第四案、第五案我是司法法制我要到場我也到場了我也不曉得說兩點半開始什麼時候會討論到第四案、第五案但是我們還是坐在這裡那現在主席說到五點那我會議詢問"},{"start":7631.776,"end":7633.818,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7644.502,"end":7646.264,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7670.585,"end":7690.755,"text":"本黨團不是因為副總統不在,是因為他是提案委員,我們要了解。但是呢,我覺得不管本黨團是怎麼運作,也沒有其他黨團智慧的空間。別的黨團怎麼可以管我們黨團內部是怎麼運作啊?這個會不會...對,不會,反過來...沒有,那就是保留,剛剛結果是保留嘛,因為你們不願意接受我們意見,那就第三...我們是不是可以討論...我覺得宗嘉斌我的意見非常的好,他都專程上來..."},{"start":7695.137,"end":7696.758,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7717.736,"end":7721.399,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文"},{"start":7736.388,"end":7737.71,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":7752.991,"end":7754.411,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條文修正第三條"},{"start":7774.537,"end":7774.937,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":7791.886,"end":7800.329,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正第四條文修正第五條文修正第三條文修正第四條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文修正第五條文"},{"start":7818.914,"end":7820.856,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":7843.814,"end":7845.155,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":7868.085,"end":7883.002,"text":"這個其實我們會議詢問的第一個要點就是說那接下來的協商那如果說國民黨黨團的這個總召副總召不在的時候那到底協商算不算數因為其實剛剛這個講到第二個案子的時候就卡住了嘛就卡住了嘛"},{"start":7883.682,"end":7886.644,"text":"條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":7912.483,"end":7938.475,"text":"我是希望能夠尊重發言啦那第二條就是說這個不要扯別人是什麼心水小偷那問一下那現在就是說在立法院裡面那院長去查一下嘛在立法院裡面多少的立法員現在在辦公室裡面的要不要去查一下我們在這邊已經在這邊做協商了那那個協商你看又來了他又不尊重你了他又不尊重你了又不尊重你了又不尊重了又不尊重發言了"},{"start":7938.815,"end":7939.876,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":7961.85,"end":7963.231,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正"},{"start":7981.958,"end":8009.43,"text":"對於我們的柯總召年齡歧視,就是你啊,就是你,我就講陳玉珍,我就講你陳玉珍,就是對於柯總召就是做年齡歧視啊,就是你就欺負,你就覺得說他好像年紀比你大,又來了,韓院長,韓院長,我這次叫對了,你看他又阻撓,他又阻撓我講話了,對不對,我每次我來這邊講話的時候,我也是算是心靜的嘛,就是這樣子會欺負人家這樣而已啊,"},{"start":8010.13,"end":8012.291,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8032.52,"end":8033.861,"text":"第二條及第七十條條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8060.219,"end":8079.465,"text":"因為國民黨團正式來請求,當然民進黨黨團如果提出請求,我們也一定要照辦,願本部一定要辦,特別跟省委員解釋一下,好不好?那你每次發言,你看我當主席都很尊重你,好不好?多羨慕你的髮型啊。好,我們現在請國民黨團提案,黨團請發言。"},{"start":8083.24,"end":8085.581,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議．國民黨黨黨團提議"},{"start":8112.642,"end":8114.663,"text":"條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8133.848,"end":8135.389,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8160.487,"end":8180.359,"text":"現在是把罰則是增加了,大概增加一倍左右啦。那這個的部分是第五十三條,希望不要擴大解釋,並沒有針對於條文文字上面修正的做處理。那另外七十之二條,就是針對於這個再延長五年的一個部分,就這兩個條文以上說明。謝謝,請吳思瑤幹事長請發言。"},{"start":8186.804,"end":8189.025,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":8209.488,"end":8226.643,"text":"條文修正草案案 當初在審查會當中大家希望對於電入國家榮譽損害國家利益規定這兩個內容要予以做調整我想就教於部長或者是署長"},{"start":8232.588,"end":8233.349,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":8248.241,"end":8250.143,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8277.602,"end":8278.362,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8302.272,"end":8304.373,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8329.321,"end":8343.691,"text":"還有旅館業、旅行業、觀光遊樂業或民宿經營者。」主題做了這個調整更細緻多元與時俱進但是同樣的呢電入國家榮譽這個部分都還在損害國家利益"},{"start":8344.411,"end":8346.733,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8367.41,"end":8385.115,"text":"所以我這些的說法應當都是整個嚴格嘛那最近一次距離我們今天修法就是現行法應當是民國一百一十一年的五月三號修正的條次就沒有動五十三條再一次針對所謂的觀光旅館業這些經營者有墊入國家榮譽損害國家利益他都保留這些樣態"},{"start":8392.118,"end":8393.964,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":8399.281,"end":8401.463,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":8425.661,"end":8448.659,"text":"報告委員,我們當然認為沒有調整的必要,尤其是這個涉及到跟國家榮譽或者是國家利益的這些用語的法令跟命令,其實我們在其他的法令跟規定裡面也相當的多。其中涉及國家榮譽的總共有八種法令跟條文,交通部當中涉及有六種,那其他部會有兩種。"},{"start":8449.58,"end":8450.301,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8472.401,"end":8474.922,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8497.888,"end":8500.11,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8528.429,"end":8530.09,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8554.369,"end":8568.723,"text":"我們對於這個所謂同樣的規範電入國家榮譽跟這個損害國家利益在教育部相關的法律應當也蠻多有規範嗎?教育部李副處長不用客氣請直接發言那邊前面有麥克風請往前您走過來對對對"},{"start":8574.738,"end":8576.46,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8600.168,"end":8602.85,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":8624.704,"end":8631.809,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正四條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8646.564,"end":8647.045,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8665.945,"end":8667.126,"text":"條文修正三、研商"},{"start":8682.244,"end":8696.665,"text":"條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國外跟國內都有類似的案例還有我們在疫情期間那個洛特夫他們在執行這個防疫的時候也確實我們也用這個條文否則的話這個沒辦法維持觀光產業的秩序"},{"start":8697.526,"end":8698.246,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8720.452,"end":8721.173,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8739.514,"end":8740.375,"text":"條條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":8763.476,"end":8765.076,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":8786.901,"end":8788.142,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8816.776,"end":8818.296,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":8851.547,"end":8853.709,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8874.665,"end":8902.022,"text":"你的發言時間已經很久了。你的發言時間非常久了。主席我的發言時間。不要這樣弄頭親骨。來。來。所以這個條文53條。主席。我不是對主席拍桌子。我是對於一直在插話的委員。很不能忍受。"},{"start":8904.107,"end":8916.997,"text":"條文的部分上限上限的調整然後就是再確認一下你的立場下限不做調整對上限左右提升嘛好那我了解謝謝"},{"start":8918.664,"end":8922.586,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":8937.422,"end":8939.403,"text":"條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條文修正第三十條"},{"start":8952.852,"end":8954.873,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8980.316,"end":9002.155,"text":"你把附带决议拿来,谢谢啊。好,我们接下来请沈博洋委员请发言。好,我简短先说明,就是说,第一个刚刚为什么会讨论到,就是说,这一个玷污国家荣誉等等之类的,那是因为在委员会讨论的时候,有委员有这样的意见啊。就说,诶,这个是不是还的确定在上面,所以刚刚私下委员要讲这个理由是这个。"},{"start":9002.916,"end":9031.054,"text":"但第二個我覺得蠻重要的一件事情是現在我覺得等一下我們要去討論那一個額度上限下限那個應該是後面因為我覺得大家對於這件事情比較沒有爭議就只是那個額度要怎麼調但這個條文裡面有一個很大的問題在哪裡就是徐宇貞委員這個提案他加了幾句話他說經法院判決確定者然後後面就說可以廢止執照登記啊什麼的這個經法院判決確定者會等於實質就直接弱化主管機關了"},{"start":9032.11,"end":9058.047,"text":"因為我舉個例子比如說像我們最近這個上將到中國參與統戰國防部不是就直接做了一個裁處去砍他的退休金等等之類的這個完全無待於任何的司法判決就可以先做這是主管機關的權責然後如果司法另外又有案子那是他的事情那是另外一件事司法有案子有刑責或者有罰金跟主管機關有沒有罰還完全是兩件事"},{"start":9058.627,"end":9059.668,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":9080.623,"end":9081.984,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9106.678,"end":9115.197,"text":"但如果要拆開,變得比較漂亮,我個人也是贊成。」大概就是這樣,謝謝。謝謝沈博焱委員發言。接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言,黃建豪委員請準備。"},{"start":9119.107,"end":9141.276,"text":"謝謝主席那我想我們如同主席一開始才是的我們現在是從53條先討論所以剛剛這個林倩琦委員有講到36條事實上我對林倩琦委員講36條我也是很關心因為我每年都在推動從我們布袋騎水上摩托車到澎湖"},{"start":9142.696,"end":9143.216,"text":"（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9171.681,"end":9174.263,"text":"條文修正三十六條文修正三十六條文修正三十六條文修正三十六條文"},{"start":9192.637,"end":9193.558,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":9214.019,"end":9215.339,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":9241.205,"end":9244.266,"text":"所謂觀光業者的受僱人員然後也有這樣對應的一些處罰所以處罰是越來越嚴格看起來嚴格那這個處罰的金額也有提高所以基本上大家是重視這件事我剛剛看到部長他也有舉出幾個例子說在95年的時候曾經有旅遊業者接待中國的旅客來台灣結果竟然被"},{"start":9270.157,"end":9272.618,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":9292.623,"end":9295.005,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":9314.358,"end":9317.2,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文"},{"start":9344.258,"end":9344.411,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":9345.137,"end":9360.067,"text":"有些事需要查證,包括那個我們直接用那個直接裁罰只有十五萬,太低。所以應該要用採取最嚴格的,就停業三個月。當時的情境是這樣,但是五十三條一樣是有可以停業,那甚至可以到廢紙及營業執照啊。五十三條一樣有這樣的規定啊。"},{"start":9374.457,"end":9375.057,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":9397.864,"end":9400.566,"text":"條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":9413.949,"end":9418.854,"text":"蔡委員、蔡署長我現在消化一下,我要講的就是說確實在旅遊的時候如果有這樣丟包的情形它是一個軒然大波而且這種軒然大波會對台灣在旅遊的時候會有很大的傷害"},{"start":9432.608,"end":9451.778,"text":"那這個傷害我舉的例子雖然是在國外但是一樣是有傷害到那如果發生在國內也會傷害事實上我還有想到另外一個例子就是說這一次不是一樣是在年初的時候有台灣的網紅跑到人家國家去結果自導自演去罵人家國家但是柬埔寨嘛"},{"start":9453.199,"end":9457.081,"text":"條文修正條例第二條條文修正條例第三十條條文修正條例第四條條文修正條例第七條條文修正條例第八條條文修正條例"},{"start":9479.634,"end":9480.094,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9499.424,"end":9500.545,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":9519.326,"end":9520.287,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9541.654,"end":9565.687,"text":"好謝謝主席我們各位委員還有我們這個各位所長好這個公安發展光條例第五三條所謂電入國家榮譽損害國家利益這部分呢是我在委會裡面提出來一些意見那當然我要先講前提合憲序名我沒有要刪除這個字眼但是我對他的定義因為當時第一時間在詢問觀光署跟交通部的時候他們其實答不出來所以後來有提供我資料"},{"start":9566.067,"end":9567.888,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":9595.558,"end":9598.179,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":9617.108,"end":9618.548,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":9647.156,"end":9649.118,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9662.113,"end":9663.394,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．事由．民進黨團提議．事由．民進黨團提議．事由．民進黨團提議．"},{"start":9684.445,"end":9685.266,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":9714.113,"end":9718.677,"text":"謝謝主席我想接下來我們的會議進行可不可以先請提案的委員或委員會先做說明我剛才為什麼特別講其實這個條文大家都沒有意見其實各黨團對於現在的條文沒有意見"},{"start":9733.767,"end":9734.648,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":9753.647,"end":9754.088,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":9767.401,"end":9768.102,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":9789.119,"end":9792.443,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":9804.718,"end":9805.018,"text":"提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":9835.339,"end":9836.861,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":9854.438,"end":9855.178,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9882.554,"end":9909.594,"text":"規範、受規範者我們裁罰也會很清楚、很精準。」好,所以樣帶部分您等一下再說明一下。然後第三個講到法則。我非常同意剛剛沈博洋委員說的。這個是行政的裁罰。不需要經法院認證啊。經法院裁罰這個判決確定。所以是如果這個大家都有共識,這個其實是拿掉的。徐宇貞委員的這個內容是拿掉的。第四個呢,是這個法則的部分。"},{"start":9910.214,"end":9911.994,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9939.099,"end":9958.637,"text":"一百五十萬元以下的罰緩。」這是第一項。第二項呢（金售停止營業一部或全部之處分（他仍然繼續營業者呢（這種叫你停你不停的還在違法營業的那要處多少財罰呢（是新台幣五十萬元以上兩百萬元以下"},{"start":9959.538,"end":9960.74,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":9978.464,"end":9979.065,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9994.727,"end":9995.368,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":10016.249,"end":10018.391,"text":"條文修正草案條例第二條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":10043.192,"end":10064.728,"text":"條文修正草案條例第四條文修正草案條例第七條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案條例第八條文修正草案"},{"start":10071.813,"end":10099.153,"text":"還有就是說有些是經過檢察官可能是還起訴處分的那這種類型算不算我們都會有一些疑問所以就是就這個部分提出我們的看法那至於對於這個什麼樣的情形屬於煉乳國家容易或損害國家利益基本上我們覺得這是不確定的法律概念那這個要看個案的情形去認定我現在我沒有辦法就這個把它提出類型化的說明這個可能要請主管機關來做說明那對於那個罰還的那個金額的部分那尊重大院的決定謝謝"},{"start":10099.793,"end":10101.134,"text":"條文修正草案案。（民進黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":10119.258,"end":10133.753,"text":"條文修正草案的基準是不是符合你們一般的標準呢?我剛剛建議的部分是不是可以接受的?主席關於那個罰還額度我們這是尊重大院的決定謝謝"},{"start":10138.834,"end":10139.234,"text":"提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":10155.535,"end":10156.396,"text":"條文修正草案案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":10183.51,"end":10210.828,"text":"所以這在法律解釋上本來就已經有的東西所以我不會覺得說它是一個完全不確定的概念但它的確還是需要靠案例的累積所以這是第一點第二點就是我覺得這一點大家應該達成共識就是那個法院判決確定應該不太應該放在這一邊那我講一個簡單的案例因為我們現在大家都很關心詐騙那如果說就算是詐騙雖然我們今天有打詐專法也有詐欺但是因為如果你的詐騙一定要符合到現在刑法上的詐騙要計稅未遂的話"},{"start":10211.869,"end":10212.53,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":10222.183,"end":10247.472,"text":"謝謝沈博雅委員,麻煩請陳部長,請。好,謝謝院長。那針對大家剛剛的意見的部分,其實針對金額的部分,我想大家是相對是比較有共識啦,那交通部這邊也都接受這樣子的這個金額的部分,我們也認為是合理的。那至於這個財閥的部分,有關於玷污國家榮譽跟損害國家利益,這個部分雖然是涉及比較不確定的這個法律概念,"},{"start":10248.012,"end":10248.932,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":10283.461,"end":10308.636,"text":"對,對,如果要確認條文,就是我剛剛具體的金額,我剛剛金額,如果我沒有理解錯,吳司法院同意,然後布里也同意嘛,所以是不是這個金額部分,請各黨派委員,大家可以看一下。金額的調整,罰還的調整,對,其他文字對,那我想贏一下先發給各黨團幹部好不好,這吳司要所提的這個罰金他做了一個調整,好不好,大家再一分鐘左右來請。"},{"start":10311.284,"end":10312.11,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":10362.881,"end":10364.871,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正草案案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":10440.696,"end":10451.184,"text":"黨團幹部看到了嗎?來,他這個條就是他在第二項修正那個版本,就是法案兩百萬改為五十萬以上、兩百萬以下。"},{"start":10458.048,"end":10460.43,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條"},{"start":10482.89,"end":10484.831,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":10501.4,"end":10502.821,"text":"條文修正草案案。（民進黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":10524.036,"end":10525.498,"text":"條條文修正草案案案案。（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":10545.08,"end":10568.855,"text":"因為我們現在三個黨加上交通部還有司法院還有觀光署大家共同的意見基本上我們就是如果沒有特別意見我們就遵照這個是第五十三條就尊重王美惠議員等十六人的提案這是基本上大智商然後另外呢就請交通部剛剛陳本懷講得很清楚我們在立法說明裡面把有玷污國家榮譽有損害國家利益者說得更清楚像這樣子沒意見了嘛"},{"start":10570.231,"end":10576.794,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正四條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"},{"start":10600.928,"end":10625.582,"text":"我現在正式宣告一下,我們現在已經接近五點鐘。本案我們就繼續溝通協商。另外一點,明天下午三點,我們要依照協商的結論,進行附屬單位預算保留等的第二輪協商,以利本週五的院會進行處理。其他今天所列的相關的提案,我們再依序來討論。請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?"},{"start":10628.973,"end":10631.521,"text":"條文修正三條條文修正第三十條條文修正三條條文修正三條條"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:29:59.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:34:58.611000+08:00","text":"各位列席的黨團幹部以及所有列席的各位官員，非常感謝大家今天來到立法院一起來參與我\n們的朝野協商。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:34:59.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:35:10.854000+08:00","text":"首先要介紹今天列席的各位部長及各位官員，第一位歡迎財政部莊部長，熱情\n歡迎；第二位歡迎金管會彭主委，熱情歡迎；第三位歡迎法務部林參事，熱情歡迎；還有各位\n列席官員，熱情歡迎。","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:35:11.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:35:47.780000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，謝謝大家，今天我們協商主題的第一案是研商「證券交易稅條例第二條之二\n及第十二條條文修正草案」等案，包括財政委員會併案審查完成的 10 案以及院會逕付二讀郭國\n文委員等 17 位擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:35:48.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:35:58.529000+08:00","text":"本案經財政委員會於 113 年\n10 月 30 日完成審查，其中第二條之二及第十六條條文均予保留，送院會協商。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:35:59.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:36:04.454000+08:00","text":"另外，在 113 年\n11月 18日由賴召委惠員召開的朝野黨團協商，並沒有獲得共識。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:36:10.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:36:32.407000+08:00","text":"本席在這裡要特別跟大家報告一下，有關當沖交易的證交稅減半課徵將於今年底屆滿，是否\n能夠再繼續延長減半課稅的施行期間，以及延長時間有多久、多長，要請各黨團幹部及政府官\n員分別就本次所協商主題來表達意見。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:36:32.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:36:38.831000+08:00","text":"首先，我們請莊部長跟彭主委先表達一下意見，好不好？請。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:36:38.831000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:36:58.786333+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，各位委員們，大家午安、大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:36:58.786333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:37:18.741667+08:00","text":"有關這次證交稅條例我們提出來的修正\n，最重要的是第二條之二，第二條之二就是對於當沖降稅的減半，現行的證交稅是千分之三，\n當沖是減半，也就是千分之一點五，因為這個降稅措施到今年底就屆期了，在這之前我們就跟\n金管會做密切的交流以及討論，我們認為當沖降稅自 106 年實施以來，真的有效提升了市場的\n成交量及流動性，並且也降低了投資人的交易成本，因為證券市場受到國際政治還有經濟情勢\n協 2\n變動的影響很大，是容易受到這樣一個影響，為了繼續維持證券市場交易的動能，以及促進市\n場穩定發展及降低一些不確定性，我們認為對於當沖降稅的部分宜再延長 3 年，到 116 年 12 月\n31號，這個部分是我們院版提出來的修正，也就是將當沖降稅實施期間再延長 3年的部分。","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:37:18.741667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:37:38.697000+08:00","text":"另外，我們也提出第十二條的修正，第十二條主要是在繳款通知書裡的繳納內容增列了怠報\n金及罰鍰的修正；另外，因為在行政程序法裡面已明定有關送達的規定，所以我們認為這個部\n分就回歸到行政程序法這個法規，因此就刪除第二項跟第三項的規定。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:37:38.697000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:37:58.652333+08:00","text":"以上是院版主要提出的修正內容，以上說明。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:37:58.652333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:38:18.607667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝莊部長的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:38:18.607667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:38:38.563000+08:00","text":"接下來請柯建銘總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:38:38.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:38:39.163000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員同仁。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:38:40.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:38:44.646000+08:00","text":"剛才財政部已經表達它的立場，也就是行政院版本。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:38:45.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:39:06.135000+08:00","text":"我們在今\n天的協商裡面，當然各位也看到，本黨委員有李坤城委員延為 4 年，郭國文委員是 2 年，民進\n黨全部支持行政院版，我們就是 3 年，這是我們的立場，希望大家能夠把這個事情趕快完成。","quality":0.813},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:39:06.135000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:39:30.428000+08:00","text":"尤其現在股市到年底了，所有投資人都在看這個法到底會不會延期，所以我們今天就相對單純\n化，我也呼籲各黨，大家都延 3 年就好了，這樣就很單純，讓此案能夠趕快在禮拜五就把它三\n讀通過，這是一個很重大的法案。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:39:30.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:39:35.592000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯建銘總召的發言，民進黨所有的版本已經彙整全部支持行政院版本 3年。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:39:36.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:39:38.315000+08:00","text":"接下來請國\n民黨團表達意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:39:39.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:39:42.078000+08:00","text":"院長、各位黨團幹部。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:39:43.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:39:55.151000+08:00","text":"增加國家的稅收，我想我們都一定是同意的，尤其讓股市的交\n易量能夠增加，讓我們的稅收能夠更多，本黨絕對是同意的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:39:55.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:40:19.725000+08:00","text":"但是就是我們這一次要延長為 3\n年或者 5 年，行政院版是 3 年，當然也有委員的版本是 5 年，我想這部分可以討論，到底要 3\n年、5年，如果大家都形成共識，我們是都可以談，OK，就是三黨要達成一致的共識。謝謝。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:40:19.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:40:22.390000+08:00","text":"謝謝國民黨團的發言，接下來請台灣民眾黨團，請發言。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:40:22.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:40:28.300000+08:00","text":"各財政委員會的請稍待，我們先請\n黨團幹部表達意見之後，再請各位列席的財政委員會的委員表達。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:40:28.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:40:28.640000+08:00","text":"請黃珊珊委員，請表達意見\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:40:31.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:40:32.042000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:40:32.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:40:53.746000+08:00","text":"我想台灣民眾黨就這個案子我們有提修正版本，主要是因為行政院為提升\n台股的動能，在 106 年就開始實施了，不可否認的確當沖減稅刺激了股市的交易量，而且增加\n了流通性，也有創造政府證交稅的效果，我覺得這個還不錯，而且狀況也很好。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:40:53.746000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:41:10.170143+08:00","text":"但是現在已經\n變成有點像……7 年了，甚至再 3 年的話，就將近快 10 年，也就是如果這個減稅政策是政府的\n政策的話，那是不是也有一說就是直接常態化，他們的理由就是說因為要刺激股市交易，那你\n是不是將來 3 年以後又要再來一次？","quality":0.121},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:41:10.170143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:41:26.594286+08:00","text":"所以我們的問題是，在財委會當時為什麼會保留沒有共識\n的原因，主要就是我們希望金管會也好，財政部也好，應該針對延長調降當日沖銷的交易稅的\n執行效果，要進行評估的指標、還有受惠對象的分析、到底誰受惠了……這些相關的內容，而\n不是每三年就跑過來講一次說我們為了鼓勵什麼的，政策要有政策的目標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:41:26.594286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:41:43.018429+08:00","text":"所以我們希望，法\n條上是要幾年我們沒有定見，但是我們本來是希望是不是第四年、第五年可以遞減，最差最差\n就是你將來不要就停了，可是現在變成是每三年要來一次，那這 3 年一次我覺得應該要訂出一\n協 3\n個指標還有政策的目標，你要建立一個評估的指標跟受惠對象的分析，因為很多人都說這個大\n部分都是外資受惠，更何況是 3 年以後期望達成的目標值，到今天為止我也沒有看到財政部跟\n金管會的報告。","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:41:43.018429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:41:59.442571+08:00","text":"所以我們的立場就是，年限可以討論，但是一定要提出你的目標是什麼，你的\n指標是什麼，3 年後會長什麼樣，如果認為這是一個重要的政策，將來這個優惠是不是會鈍化？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:41:59.442571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:42:15.866714+08:00","text":"因為每三年都會來一次，所以大概也沒有什麼刺激的效果了。以上。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:42:15.866714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:42:32.290857+08:00","text":"現在有兩位提案委員，李坤城委員跟羅明才委員，喔，還有林楚茵委員，你們 3位提案委員\n，等一下你們 3位個別發言一下。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:42:32.290857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:42:48.715000+08:00","text":"我們請柯總召二輪發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:42:48.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:43:05.863000+08:00","text":"我剛才聽了黃珊珊委員的話，你們變成兩個極端，你的提案是要逐年降低，這是一個\n方案；但你現在又說要常態化，我們要先去釐清是哪一個……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:43:06.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:43:13.166000+08:00","text":"那是財政部要回答的，你到底要常態化還是要什麼，你要說清楚，不是 3年送來一次\n……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:43:13.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:43:14.260000+08:00","text":"你聽我講，你的提案，一個就是說那以後就遞減，讓它越來越少，這是一個政策性選\n擇沒有錯，常態化也是一個政策選擇，那你同時講兩邊的話，我不知道要跟你哪一邊啦，我現\n在是說，你到底是要哪一邊？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:43:14.260000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:43:15.354000+08:00","text":"我是說那是財政部要講清楚的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:43:15.354000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:43:16.448000+08:00","text":"沒有啦，財政部要講之前我先尊重你，你如果說要常態化，才有所謂的這個評估指標\n、受惠對象嘛，假如這樣的話，應該就是說你贊成延嘛，但是要不要常態化的時候，誰收益嘛\n，這個時候對象……評估指標，是不是只有外資還是怎麼樣，或法人等等，這個我們都能夠理\n解，我們先把原點講清楚，這樣的話應該是贊成延，然後要不要常態化？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:43:16.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:44:30.533000+08:00","text":"那你再寫一個附帶決\n議就好了，我是這樣建議啦，因為我們的意向一定要抓清楚，否則兩邊不知道講哪一邊，我希\n望這個能夠單純一點，今天我們所有股民都在等待，年底到了嘛，我們不可能說不要了、不搞\n了嘛，大概是這樣。","quality":0.489},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:44:32.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:44:34.495000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯建銘總召，接下來李坤城委員請發言，羅明才委員請準備。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T14:44:34.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:44:51.087500+08:00","text":"支持行政院版。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:44:51.087500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:45:07.680000+08:00","text":"好的，羅明才委員請發言，然後林楚茵委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-10T14:45:07.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:45:24.272500+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-10T14:45:24.272500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:45:40.865000+08:00","text":"我想我最重要的是支持整個股市交易市場的穩定發展，所以我當\n初是支持金管會的彭主委，他提出了 5 年，所以也是因為這樣子我就寫 5 年開始推動，結果想\n不到最後，我怎麼突然又被做掉了，變成 3年，但是沒關係，不論是 3年、5年，市場其實都很\n期待，我們可以看最近的成交量，今天都萎縮到三千多億了，正常量、日均量應該在 5,000 億、\n6,000 億以上，而且 12 月就快到了，所以本席雖然有提案是 5 年，如果說大家……我也要讓它\n先求有再求好，特別是柯總召今天第一天復出，我就送給他一個大禮，我不堅持 5 年，要 3 年\n我也 OK，謝謝。","quality":0.01},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:45:40.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:45:41.266000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅明才委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:45:41.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:45:42.627000+08:00","text":"請林楚茵委員，請發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2024-12-10T14:45:43.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:45:43.867000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2024-12-10T14:45:45.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:46:04.881000+08:00","text":"我想 echo 一下我們的羅明才委員，因為當時在委員會的朝野協商的時候\n，我、羅明才委員還有珊珊委員，其實我們都有在朝野協商，而我的版本是 3 年，我們知道主\n協 4\n席為什麼會排定今天，是因為今天是 12 月 10 號，距離這個……目前如果不修法的話，只剩下\n15 個交易日。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2024-12-10T14:46:04.881000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:46:22.107571+08:00","text":"我們看到的就是，其實現在市場有一個預期心理是我們要延長，那麼又在交易量\n萎縮的情況底下，為了不讓股市動盪，我想今天朝野協商一個好的開始就是，不論是珊珊委員\n這邊的民眾黨版本，或者是剛剛羅委員已經講的，國民黨也會不堅持的話，那我們是不是就是\n可以以 3 年的版本？","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2024-12-10T14:46:22.107571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:46:39.334143+08:00","text":"我們也都知道未來該怎麼做，其實我們還有……至少我們先讓暫行的，在\n12 月 31 號之前有一個新的版本可以通過，讓股市可以穩定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2024-12-10T14:46:39.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:46:56.560714+08:00","text":"那麼接下來要討論的是，到底要不\n要變成是 5 年？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2024-12-10T14:46:56.560714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:47:13.787286+08:00","text":"或者是珊珊版本的民眾黨的這個部分，我也認同它不是一個政治問題，它是一\n個專業問題，我們可以在後續再提一次修法，但是至少我們今天達成共識，可以穩定股市，然\n後讓整個國際也不會認為臺灣的股票市場會因為這麼簡單的問題而有動盪，所以當然也就懇請\n另外兩個黨團能夠支持行政院這個 3年的版本，謝謝。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:47:13.787286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:47:31.013857+08:00","text":"請莊部長、彭主委分別簡單、扼要來說明，因為大家有一些問題，麻煩您，請莊部長。謝謝。","quality":0.147},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:47:31.013857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:47:48.240429+08:00","text":"我想當沖降稅基本上是一個減稅的措施，根據納稅者權利保護法，它必須要有\n一個期限的訂定，而這個期限，我們也跟金管會有做過密切的溝通，我們認為 3 年是一個妥當\n的時間，因為股票市場基本上容易受到國際政治、經濟情勢的變化，在這 3 年期間，如果即將\n屆期之前，我們其實可以進行相關的檢視跟討論，然後來做一些因應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:47:48.240429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:05.467000+08:00","text":"我們認為 5 年可能會有\n一些過長，而且過往我們之前的當沖降稅，第一次是 1 年，第二次是 3 年 8 個月，最主要是要\n切到年底，第三次也是 3年，所以我們認為 3年是一個適當的期間，補充說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:05.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:27.816000+08:00","text":"是，主席，剛剛有關莊部長談的內容，金管會都支持，剛剛羅委員有提到，今年\n4 月的時候我們有提送一個意見給財政部，當時我們是建議 5 年，不過這個租稅的考量是由財政\n部來決定，後來我們大家也同意 3 年是行政院版本，所以我們也覺得這個是非常恰當的。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:27.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:35.889333+08:00","text":"再來\n就是在金管會的角度，我們比較在意的是交易的制度、市場的穩定，還有未來的發展，我想這\n個政策對這三項要素都還滿重要的，所以我們還是支持，希望各位委員能夠支持我們 3 年這個\n版本，謝謝。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:35.889333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:43.962667+08:00","text":"法務部列席的林參事，您有寶貴意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:43.962667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:52.036000+08:00","text":"林參事豐文：沒有。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:52.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:52.036000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:52.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:48:53.036000+08:00","text":"請黃珊珊委員二輪發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:48:52.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:49:02.725000+08:00","text":"院長，剛剛柯總召講的，我再講一遍，我們其實不太清楚財政部跟金管會他們的政策\n目標，所以我才要問到底是要常態化，還是要每 3 年送一次？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:49:03.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:49:04.406000+08:00","text":"這是第一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:49:04.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:49:18.618000+08:00","text":"第二個就是對\n於年限，我們也是支持這樣，所以我們的版本才會還是一樣延長 3 年，只是說要不要 4、5 年遞\n減而已，這個是我們原來修法的立意，就是說目標清楚了，你才知道接下去要做的事。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:49:18.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:49:33.645000+08:00","text":"所以，\n如果大家都同意 3 年，那也不要耽誤大家時間的話，我們今天有準備一個附帶決議，就是要請\n金管會針對延長調降當日沖銷交易稅執行效果，建立評估指標，還有受惠對象的分析，還要訂\n立 3 年後期望達成的政策目標，確保國家稅賦優惠的公平性，還有有效性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:49:33.645000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:49:48.672000+08:00","text":"用這樣的方式，至\n少讓他知道這 3 年，我們要知道他的未來目標是什麼，而且 3 年後會是什麼樣的狀態？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:49:48.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:01.507000+08:00","text":"如果這\n協 5\n個政策目標已經是常態化，成為一個常態了，那將來的修法是不是就把它常態化，而不是每 3\n年送一個……大家為什麼要每 3 年來討論一次這種事情，我也覺得很奇怪。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:01.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:07.180600+08:00","text":"當然政策方向是一\n樣，金管會當然希望長一點，財政部基於稅收，希望少一點，那變成是一個妥協的結果，我們\n沒意見，但是指標跟相關的評估，還是要說得很清楚。","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:07.180600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:12.854200+08:00","text":"所以我們希望用附帶決議的方式，不知\n道其他黨團可不可以支持？","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:12.854200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:18.527800+08:00","text":"我們提供給大家看一下好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:18.527800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:24.201400+08:00","text":"好，麻煩請黃珊珊委員把附帶決議提供給我們。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:24.201400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:29.875000+08:00","text":"柯總召請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:29.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:35.557000+08:00","text":"黃珊珊委員這個附帶決議剛才還沒講以前，我就講過了，因為我聽他講，知道這是一\n個專業評估。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:38.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:50:46.961000+08:00","text":"持平而論，坦白說針對市場，大家都很了解，我以前也當過證券公司董事長，就\n是在還沒當立委以前，所以我一半以前是業界人士，但我從來不玩股票。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:50:46.961000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:51:04.252000+08:00","text":"我很清楚，當沖，他\n講的是真正內行的，誰受益？","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:51:04.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:51:21.543000+08:00","text":"但是現在大家都會使用 AI 了，以前是因為有知識落差、工具落差\n，所以受益會集中在法人和外資上面，現在大概誰都很清楚了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:51:21.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:51:38.834000+08:00","text":"所以，這個附帶決議我完全贊成，我想大家也會贊成。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:51:38.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:51:42.460000+08:00","text":"現在比較關鍵的就是，今天我看大家\n一團和氣，很感謝羅明才委員說要給我當作禮物，這是假的也沒有關係啦！","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:51:42.460000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:51:59.808000+08:00","text":"反正就是 appreciate\n，我們大家都一致，我很具體建議這個排入禮拜五的討論事項前面，把它宣讀過去就好了，因\n為大家都在看，年底要到了，什麼時候要三讀？","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:51:59.808000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:17.156000+08:00","text":"我們這禮拜五就把它處理掉，等一下我們都講\n完以後，我要對禮拜五的議程會再做一番建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:17.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:32.350000+08:00","text":"林思銘書記長，學長的話絕對不會騙你，禮拜\n五應該怎麼樣、所有法案應該怎麼處理，等一下我們再一起討論，但這個先放進去，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:32.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:32.710000+08:00","text":"先把它三讀。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:35.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:37.375000+08:00","text":"附帶決議大家是不是都已經拿到手上？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:40.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:41.719000+08:00","text":"對，也請行政部門看一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:41.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:49.529769+08:00","text":"院長，我們再表達一下意見好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:49.529769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:52:57.340538+08:00","text":"院長，我們做個結論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:52:57.340538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:05.151308+08:00","text":"是，感謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:05.151308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:12.962077+08:00","text":"我想這個政策當然就是要提升我們證券交易市場的整個能量，還有它\n的流動性，來增加我們財政部因為交易量的增大而提升稅收，不會因為稅收降低，反而造成我\n們的稅會少收，不會有這個因素，其實就是要讓我們的股市能夠穩定，降低我們證券市場的不\n確定性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:12.962077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:20.772846+08:00","text":"所以我想這個政策，我們當然是敬表同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:20.772846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:28.583615+08:00","text":"剛才各位是說要 3 年或 5 年，好像我聽到\n大家是贊成 3 年，所以我想本黨的立場，我們也不再那麼堅持，若是 3 年我們也同意。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:28.583615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:36.394385+08:00","text":"至於是\n不是要在禮拜五直接就宣讀，我想這部分，我們要再仔細討論一下，待會我們再作決定……待\n會兒我們再作決定，我們再討論一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:36.394385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:44.205154+08:00","text":"……來就對了，首傅在香港就對了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:44.205154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:52.015923+08:00","text":"我跟你講，我都要跟我們傅總召……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:52.015923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:53:59.826692+08:00","text":"傅總召有交代，我跟你講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:53:59.826692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:07.637462+08:00","text":"我們的首傅，我們都要跟他們討論一下再作決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:07.637462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:15.448231+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:15.448231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:23.259000+08:00","text":"請問各位，財政部和金管會都有拿到我們的附帶決議嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:23.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:25.803000+08:00","text":"財政部部長您\n看這個……\n協 6","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:26.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:28.006000+08:00","text":"我們沒有其他的意見，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:29.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:29.908000+08:00","text":"我們同意，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:29.908000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:54:46.223857+08:00","text":"附帶決議黨團這邊 OK，行政部門也覺得 OK，所以大家可以來簽字，但也提一下，\n就是跟思銘委員報告一下，因為我們都希望這是一個好的政策，對於股市的活絡跟穩定有正向\n的效果。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T14:54:46.223857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:55:02.539714+08:00","text":"年底就到了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T14:55:02.539714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:55:18.855571+08:00","text":"因為我們要……如果二、三讀之後還要再送總統公告，它還有作業時\n間，所以如果這週五就能夠處理的話，事實上年底大家都獲得一個很好的禮物，我覺得這是好\n事，否則過了，但只因為院會排案又放到後面去，我想民生的法案有正當性、有各黨朝野共識\n的，我們就優先排在議程的前頭，我覺得這樣是非常合宜的，大家都在等這個好的消息，再請\n國民黨的委員……謝謝。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:55:18.855571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:55:35.171429+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長，如果大家都沒有意見，我們請議事人員宣讀一下附帶決議。","quality":0.156},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:55:35.171429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:55:51.487286+08:00","text":"附帶決議：\n鑑於行政院為提升台股動能，於一百零六年起實施當沖交易降稅，不可否認，當沖減稅確有\n刺激股市交易量，增加流通性之作用，並有創造政府證券交易稅收增加之效果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:55:51.487286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:07.803143+08:00","text":"惟，該租稅優惠政策多遭外界質疑減稅政策形同政府鼓勵「短期投機」交易行為。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:07.803143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:24.119000+08:00","text":"且降稅刺\n激效果有可能因為降稅常態化而鈍化，若將來面對股市緊急狀況時，國家反而喪失可以調控之\n刺激性政策工具。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:24.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:37.689000+08:00","text":"爰請金融監督管理委員會針對「延長調降當日沖銷交易稅」執行效果建立評估指標及受惠對\n象分析，並明訂三年後期望達成之目標，以確保國家給予稅賦優惠之公平性及有效性。","quality":0.74},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:39.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:42.973000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部，對於我們的附帶決議有沒有寶貴的意見？沒有。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:42.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:43.974000+08:00","text":"沒有，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:51.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:55.386000+08:00","text":"如果對第十六條條文大家沒有意見，我們就不予修正，好不好？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:55.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:56:56.067000+08:00","text":"好，不予修正。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:56:56.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:57:04.813000+08:00","text":"我們現在唸一下今天的協商結論，現在也在各黨團幹部的手上，請大家看一下，我來唸。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-10T14:57:06.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:57:57.248000+08:00","text":"113年 12月 10日（星期二）下午 2時 30分\n協商主題：\n一、本院財政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員賴士葆等 25 位、委員伍麗華等\n19 位、委員賴惠員等 37 位、委員蔡易餘等 16 位分別擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條\n之二及第十二條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「證券交易稅條例部分條文\n修正草案」、羅明才等 20 位委員、林楚茵等 19 位委員、李坤城等 22 位委員分別擬\n具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」及邱志偉等 19 位委員擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-10T14:57:58.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:07.733000+08:00","text":"二、院會逕付二讀併案協商委員郭國文等 17 位擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修\n正草案」案。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:08.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:16.617000+08:00","text":"協商結論：\n協 7\n一、第二條之二條文，照行政院提案通過\n二、第十六條條文，維持現行條文。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:17.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:21.339000+08:00","text":"三、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:21.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:23.060000+08:00","text":"四、新增附帶決議 1項，如附件。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:25.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:26.121000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部有意見嗎？沒有。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:26.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:30.543000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，好，我已經簽字，請各位黨團幹部、麻煩大家依序簽字。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:35.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:41.687000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，我們現在進入第二案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:42.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:50.450000+08:00","text":"我們現在研商「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」，由國民黨黨團提議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:54.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:58:58.384000+08:00","text":"我們研商的主題\n，現在發到各位手上沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:58:58.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:59:05.509000+08:00","text":"地方稅法通則啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T14:59:05.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:59:12.634000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團提議啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:59:12.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T14:59:14.976000+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝彭主委，謝謝各位列席官員，謝謝，請微笑離開。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:59:14.976000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:59:24.445333+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:59:24.445333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:59:33.914667+08:00","text":"現在列席的一樣，是財政部的莊部長，還有行政院主計總處的李視察，\n熱情歡迎；內政部的劉專門委員，熱情歡迎；經濟部的賴副主任，歡迎您；法務部林參事，請\n坐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:59:33.914667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T14:59:43.384000+08:00","text":"我們現在研商的主題是賴士葆等 22 位委員、傅崐萁等 20 位委員分別擬具「地方稅法通則第\n四條條文修正草案」。","quality":0.163},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T14:59:43.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:00:24.351000+08:00","text":"本案經財政委員會 113 年 5月 6 日會同內政委員會舉行第 11 屆第 1 會期\n財政、內政委員會第 1 次聯席會議進行審查，審查結果全案保留；另外於 113 年 12 月 3 日由陳\n玉珍委員召集召開朝野黨團協商，並沒有達成共識。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:00:27.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:00:41.969000+08:00","text":"我們現在要請各黨團代表、列席的莊部長，以及各位列席的官員，分別就本次協商主題「地\n方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」表達寶貴的意見。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:00:41.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:00:42.449000+08:00","text":"請柯總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:00:42.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:01:01.491000+08:00","text":"這個案子是國民黨黨團提的，提案委員就賴士葆委員以及傅崐萁委員，委員會的朝野\n協商也是陳玉珍召委主持的，這是委員個人提案。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:01:01.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:01:20.533000+08:00","text":"當然等一下我們要講內容，大家要不要支持\n等等，都可以談。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:01:20.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:01:39.575000+08:00","text":"既然這是國民黨黨團、賴士葆委員……，當然這是為了花蓮縣政府的事情，\n這個案子已經很久了，但是要有一個很明確的文字處理，以後大家才不會犯錯。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:01:39.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:01:58.617000+08:00","text":"大家知道過去\n第 3 屆有一位立法委員叫廖學廣，廖學廣去收鎮長稅，結果因圖利被判了 18 年，現在沒有圖利\n公庫的事情了，那是圖利公庫，收的稅金用在地方建設上面，花蓮亦復如此，傅崐萁去收採礦\n稅，稅額比較高，被課稅的礦場有不同意見，打過行政法院……高行都打過，花蓮縣政府是輸\n的。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:01:58.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:02:04.681000+08:00","text":"但是我們在這裡要談的是，既然是國民黨黨團提案，請陳玉珍委員說明一下，你稍微講一\n下，我們要聽得懂才能支持，你們的態度、立場是怎麼樣？","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:02:04.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:02:06.242000+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨黨團陳玉珍委員發言。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:02:15.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:02:59.264000+08:00","text":"這個在委員會我主持討論的時候，財政部的口頭表示是對修法沒有意見，換句話說，\n行政部門是沒有反對意見的，但是民進黨黨團認為還要討論，所以才交付協商，至於剛剛柯總\n召說、民進黨黨團裡頭說的這個是什麼為個案修法，就會影響訴訟中的兩造當事人，我提出這\n個最新的新聞，我想你們可能沒有瞭解這個最新的情形，就在您所提到的這個花蓮縣政府與業\n協 8\n者之間的訴訟當中，事實上，在法院裡頭已經進行和解，就花蓮礦石稅的這個部分。","quality":0.377},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:02:59.264000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:03:09.672500+08:00","text":"所以我們\n事實上真正的目的是要讓所有的東西制度化，提出這樣的修法，讓整個法律更為完善，請民進\n黨支持，謝謝。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:03:09.672500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:03:20.081000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳玉珍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:03:20.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:03:30.489500+08:00","text":"稍微等一下，台灣民眾黨黨團針對本案有寶貴意見嗎？","quality":0.136},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:03:30.489500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:03:40.898000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，就\n稍待一下，我們請蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:03:40.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:03:51.306500+08:00","text":"好，請蔡易餘書記長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T15:03:51.306500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:04:01.715000+08:00","text":"剛剛聽了我們總召及陳玉珍委員的發言，大概在於花蓮是不是有這樣的一個訴訟，這\n個訴訟的過程以及是否和解，你剛剛說的那個是新聞，所以我想有一些細節，是不是請財政部\n把當時訴訟的過程，以及訴訟中財政部所掌握的狀況，讓大家可以在場聆聽一下，我們再來做\n判斷？謝謝。","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:04:01.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:04:21.642000+08:00","text":"我稍微聚焦一下，因為這一次是傅崐萁委員跟賴士葆委員的提案，他們差了最後一項\n，最後一項他們一個有，一個沒有，這個最後一項其實文字並沒有太大的問題，但它有兩個小\n問題，第一個就是在立法例上面比較少這樣規定，這是第一個，因為第三條本來就不適用。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:04:22.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:04:30.145000+08:00","text":"第二個還是回歸剛剛陳玉珍委員跟柯總召都有提到的，因為它本來有一個個案的存在，這個\n個案是在今年的 4 月吧！","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:04:30.145000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:04:41.333000+08:00","text":"我不記得確切的日期，總之是和解，但因為其實它有一個歷史脈絡，\n在我大學剛畢業的時候開始有礦石稅，本來一噸五點二，然後我記得是民國 101 年時候又改成\n10 塊錢，但因為在它年限還沒到的時候，本來應該是 106 年到期，結果在 105 年的時候花蓮縣\n政府把它改成 7 倍──70 元，所以才會變成有這個訴訟，所以它整個的歷史會讓……因為這完\n全就是因為這個個案。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:04:41.333000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:04:52.521000+08:00","text":"我覺得要制度化也沒有什麼問題，但因為多了第三項，很容易讓別人覺\n得就是這個案子，就是當時著名的花蓮縣政府，那時候縣長是誰我已經忘了，但總之當時就是\n因為這樣從 10元……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:04:52.521000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:05:03.709000+08:00","text":"花蓮王你可以忘記啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:05:03.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:05:14.897000+08:00","text":"你這個大逆不道啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:05:14.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:05:26.085000+08:00","text":"差一點想不起來，沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:05:26.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:05:37.273000+08:00","text":"從 10元直接變 70元，這個 7倍的過程而有爭議，因為這個\n爭議會有倍數上的問題，所以這次才會有到底有沒有百分之多少等等之類的這個爭議產生，所\n以我想說先補一下當時有這樣的一個歷史脈絡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:05:37.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:05:51.265000+08:00","text":"因為它今年有做和解，但是不管它有沒有這個\n情形，是會讓別人覺得可能有個案的問題，但是其實在文字上面看起來是正常的，所以我想說\n是不是請財政部也回應針對從這個訴訟一直到現在，還有他們的意見，謝謝。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:05:51.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:01.654000+08:00","text":"我們再請柯總召發言，請莊部長您稍待，等柯總召發言完以後……\n好，我們次序調一下，柯總召發言完以後，黃珊珊委員發言，然後再請莊部長。請。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:05.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:19.059000+08:00","text":"第一個，這案子我知之甚詳，因為整個歷史脈絡從廖學廣第 3屆的鎮長稅，那時候被\n判 18 年，所以他選舉的時候弄一個海報，是廖學廣自己關在牢籠裡面，然後寫著「阿廣啊！","quality":0.597},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:19.059000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:23.764667+08:00","text":"媽\n媽沒辦法再等 18 年」，後來他被判無罪，因為以前有圖利公庫，施性忠就是圖利公庫被抓去關\n的，所以這個事情要講清楚，就是說……施性忠以前被抓去關就是圖利公庫，圖利國家也會關\n，現在沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:23.764667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:28.470333+08:00","text":"前新竹市長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:28.470333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:33.176000+08:00","text":"好，對陳玉珍所談的和解，我們真的要講清楚，不算是輸的，高行、最\n高行，花蓮縣政府全部輸，因為課稅最多 30%，你把它一次課 7 倍，所以當然輸嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:33.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:37.881667+08:00","text":"法理上不\n能這樣做，輸了以後，一審輸、二審也輸，高行、最高行都輸了，所以和解就是花蓮縣政府同\n意把多收的兩億多還給人家，所以沒有所謂的和解問題，是敗訴，把錢還人家，就是這樣一回\n事，請財政部說明清楚，大家都很清楚，所以這個沒有所謂說已經和解了，不是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:37.881667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:42.587333+08:00","text":"但是今\n天要修的是要把未來他們要怎麼做寫清楚這樣而已，我想這個說清楚也好。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:42.587333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:06:47.293000+08:00","text":"請吳春城委員發言，財政部請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-12-10T15:06:47.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:04.283000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨針對這個案子尊重行政單位財政部的意見，財政部表示表示同意嘛！","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:06.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:15.666000+08:00","text":"對於\n委員會的提議沒有意見，所以我們尊重行政單位的看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:15.666000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:18.187000+08:00","text":"謝謝，珊珊委員要不要等莊部長講完您再……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:18.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:27.509000+08:00","text":"我補充一下，就是我們在財委會的時候他們有提出說他們尊重委員會的決議，所以我\n覺得很奇怪，今天聽起來好像又不是。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:27.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:31.803000+08:00","text":"了解，麻煩請財政部莊部長，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:31.803000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:36.097000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:36.097000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:40.391000+08:00","text":"我想剛剛諸位委員有提到個案的情況，針對個案的情況是不是由我們\n宋署長來做一個敘述？","quality":0},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:40.391000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:44.685000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:44.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:08:59.941000+08:00","text":"花蓮縣礦石稅的訴訟大概可以分成 105 年的自治條例、109 年跟 112\n年大概有 3年的自治條例，105年的部分一共有 8期，其中有 5期是判決確定，有 3期現在在二\n審中；另外 109 年的全部都還在訴訟中；112 年的也在訴訟中。","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2024-12-10T15:08:59.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:09:13.844706+08:00","text":"據我們了解，目前法院有說要暫\n停訴訟，希望兩造能夠和解，但我們目前的訊息是還沒有和解，就只是希望暫停訴訟讓他們去\n和解，以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:09:13.844706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:09:27.748412+08:00","text":"謝謝賦稅署的宋署長，謝謝您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:09:27.748412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:09:41.652118+08:00","text":"接下來請吳思瑤委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:09:41.652118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:09:55.555824+08:00","text":"也謝謝藉由今天的討論了解到地方稅法通則的修法，我們可以很清楚地把過去這個個\n案的歷史脈絡再回溯一遍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:09:55.555824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:10:09.459529+08:00","text":"剛剛非常清楚，因為我剛剛也一直在找資料，正如同剛剛署長所說\n明的，不管是 105 年、109 年或是 112 年自治條例所衍生的各個訴訟，其實都還在進行中，除了\n判決確定的之外，其餘都在進行中，所以我剛剛聽到國民黨代表陳玉珍召委說有和解中，我覺\n得這個還是要確認一下。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:10:09.459529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:10:23.363235+08:00","text":"剛剛署長您的釐清是，庭方是希望和解，目前終止訴訟，但目前還沒\n有確認，這個進度我們必須要掌握。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:10:23.363235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:10:37.266941+08:00","text":"就條文論條文，現在手上拿到的有傅崐萁委員跟賴士葆委員的版本，兩個版本就第一項的部\n分都是同樣的，傅崐萁委員是增加了第三項，但就我來看，如果第一項的部分朝野有共識、可\n以支持的話，好像第三項的部分是可有可無嗎？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:10:37.266941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:10:51.170647+08:00","text":"我感覺上就體例上似乎也不需要了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:10:51.170647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:11:05.074353+08:00","text":"所以這\n個就要就教於大家共同的意見，是不是行政部門大家在這個部分都有共識的話，是採賴士葆委\n員的版本嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:11:05.074353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:11:18.978059+08:00","text":"第三項的部分可能要說明一下，因為兩個版本就差在第三項，但就我的法律見解\n，體例上第一項的規範內容已經含括了第三項要補充說明的要件，所以基本上第三項是可以不\n協 10\n需要的，你們財政部可以說明，或請你們的法制人員來做一下說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:11:18.978059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:11:32.881765+08:00","text":"請稍待一下，我們請陳玉珍委員發言，再請財政部補充意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:11:32.881765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:11:46.785471+08:00","text":"我來說明一下，第一項這個可能都沒有意見，不管是誰的版本，你們都沒有意見，我\n想你們有意見的應該是第三項的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:11:46.785471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:12:00.689176+08:00","text":"第三項之所以會提出來，就是因為我們法律的規定不夠\n明確，傅崐萁委員提出來的原因是，憲法第一百十條是賦予保障縣財政及縣稅由地方立法並執\n行之。","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:12:00.689176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:12:14.592882+08:00","text":"所以我們把這個明訂得更加清楚，這個部分加第三項是讓它更明確化，尤其我們現在在\n鼓勵地方自治，如果我們不把它寫清楚，到時候造成法條上的爭議，導致民眾還要去相關法院\n進行訴訟的話，不管是對民眾或業者來講，也是一個相當辛苦的過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:12:14.592882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:12:28.496588+08:00","text":"所以過去已經發生的事情，他們在法院進行訴訟，系爭的訴訟他們繼續進行，可能是調解，\n法院也勸和解嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:12:28.496588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:12:42.400294+08:00","text":"那下去我們就是要亡羊補牢把條文寫清楚，讓後來的業者或是民間或是百姓\n，包括相關執行的地方自治機關可以有遵循的依據，所以我們認為第三項實在是應該要讓法律\n體制整個完整化。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:12:42.400294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:12:56.304000+08:00","text":"麻煩請莊部長表達一下意見，因為現在就是雙方有一點點小小不一樣的地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:12:56.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:12:56.304000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:12:56.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:13:09.372000+08:00","text":"我想最主要是在於第三項的部分，第四條第一項增加了中央所訂的地方稅\n原規定的稅率，這幾個文字加進去，已經讓第四條更為明確。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:13:09.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:13:21.860000+08:00","text":"也就是說，第四條指的是地方稅\n，但是地方稅的稅率是由中央立法來訂的，譬如說房屋稅、地價稅，都是中央訂了土地稅法還\n有房屋稅條例來訂了稅率在裡面，這非常明確。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:13:21.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:13:32.846571+08:00","text":"如果地方為了地方財政的需要，他可以在所訂\n的稅率裡面、在 30%以內去做調高，所以這個非常明確，如果把文字加進去「中央立法所訂之\n稅率」，就已經很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:13:32.846571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:13:43.833143+08:00","text":"至於第三條本身就不是屬於中央立法來訂的地方稅，它是屬於地方政府本身為了自治財政的\n需要，它可以開徵特別稅課、臨時稅課跟附加稅課，所以這些稅課就不屬於第四條裡面所定的\n所謂地方稅範圍，加進去反而體例上會有點混淆。","quality":0.01},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:13:43.833143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:13:54.819714+08:00","text":"因為第四條是第四條，第三條是第三條，兩\n者本身是非常獨立的，加進去以後，反而在體例上會有一些混淆，所以我們認為第三項事實上\n是可以不需要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:13:54.819714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:14:05.806286+08:00","text":"以上補充。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:14:05.806286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:14:16.792857+08:00","text":"部長說在體例上會混淆，但是你們不反對裡面的文字，對不對？","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:14:16.792857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:14:27.779429+08:00","text":"你們沒有反對，而是\n認為列在第四條第三項裡頭，事實上比較不妥當，可能要列在別的地方或是……因為我們列出\n來是要讓它更明確化。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:14:27.779429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:14:38.766000+08:00","text":"這個是爭執點，我們把爭點講清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:14:38.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:14:52.213000+08:00","text":"不是，其實我們對於所謂在前面的文字加「中央立法所定」，這個非常清楚，因為讓\n第四條更明確，表示中央立法定的一些地方稅稅率，我們在這邊都定下來。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:14:52.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:04.140000+08:00","text":"那麼第三條根本就\n跟第四條本身沒有關聯性，放在這邊體例反而有點怪、反而會有點混淆，所以我們建議不需要\n放這個文字。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:05.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:07.080000+08:00","text":"你覺得不需要放在第四條裡頭，那應該放在哪一個……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:08.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:08.421000+08:00","text":"我講一下，好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:11.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:25.390000+08:00","text":"第三條是第三條，第四條是第四條，中央立法的部分就是第四條的部分，地方的第三\n條加到這裡不是不需要，而是立法體例完全衝突，這不行！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:26.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:31.934000+08:00","text":"這不是需要、不需要的問題，反而\n是照你這樣立法會發生衝突，所以陳玉珍委員……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:31.934000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:33.356273+08:00","text":"放在這裡……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:33.356273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:34.778545+08:00","text":"第三條歸第三條，所以我們就……傅委員這個案子的原意就是要解決這個問題\n，我非常清楚。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:34.778545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:36.200818+08:00","text":"因為當年傅崐萁當縣長的時候，我幫他協調過這個事情，所以我很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:36.200818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:37.623091+08:00","text":"所以沒有錯啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:37.623091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:39.045364+08:00","text":"其他的，請尊重一下發言委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:39.045364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:40.467636+08:00","text":"林思銘委員，請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:40.467636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:41.889909+08:00","text":"第三條是第三條，第四條是……不要把第三條拿到第四條這邊來。","quality":0.24},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:41.889909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:43.312182+08:00","text":"我們再跟部長確認一次，也就是你這個第三項其實已經是這樣了，是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:43.312182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:44.734455+08:00","text":"那你第三項\n要放在哪裡呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:44.734455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:46.156727+08:00","text":"第三項事實上本來就不會在第四條……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:46.156727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:47.579000+08:00","text":"那它應該在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:47.579000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:49.001273+08:00","text":"它不需要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:49.001273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:50.423545+08:00","text":"不需要寫嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:50.423545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:51.845818+08:00","text":"不需要寫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:51.845818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:53.268091+08:00","text":"因為本來就沒有 30%的限……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:53.268091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:54.690364+08:00","text":"我們想說因為陳委員的一些顧慮，是不是把這一段文字放到說明裡面，在後面的立法\n說明欄來處理？","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:54.690364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:56.112636+08:00","text":"我可以這樣解讀嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:56.112636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:57.534909+08:00","text":"就是第四條已經把它定位成中央立法所定的地方稅了，就不會是\n第三項這些稅嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:57.534909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:15:58.957182+08:00","text":"所以第三項這個稅就不是第四條的稅，所以放在這邊很奇怪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:15:58.957182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:00.379455+08:00","text":"它應該放去一\n個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:00.379455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:01.801727+08:00","text":"完全錯誤！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:01.801727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:03.224000+08:00","text":"對，好，那應該放到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:03.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:03.425000+08:00","text":"第三條也沒有這個……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:03.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:09.608364+08:00","text":"陳玉珍委員他們這條要放在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:09.608364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:15.791727+08:00","text":"或者這條本身就是贅文？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:15.791727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:21.975091+08:00","text":"不需要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:21.975091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:28.158455+08:00","text":"都不需要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:28.158455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:34.341818+08:00","text":"都不需要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:34.341818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:40.525182+08:00","text":"他要的是第四條中央立法的部分。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:40.525182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:46.708545+08:00","text":"真的，它是贅語……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:46.708545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:52.891909+08:00","text":"不是只有贅語，而且第三條不能跟第四條混雜在一起，這不是贅語，這個是完全衝突\n的東西！","quality":0.162},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:52.891909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:16:59.075273+08:00","text":"真的是贅語……\n協 12謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:16:59.075273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:17:05.258636+08:00","text":"接下來請林思銘書記長，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:17:05.258636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:17:11.442000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:17:11.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:17:20.611000+08:00","text":"我想這一條財政部也說得不清不楚，財政部基本上好像支持第三項，但是\n要放在哪裡，他沒有很確定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:17:21.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:17:32.342000+08:00","text":"至於體例有沒有問題，我想法是我們立法者在創的、我們在立的\n，其實這一條有它的必要性，剛才部長說沒有必要性，這個才不會造成混淆，也才不會讓地方\n政府對於課徵相關稅收，到底要不要受到 30%調整的限制，要有一個明確的規範。","quality":0.453},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:17:32.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:17:43.039750+08:00","text":"沒有規範造\n成現在就訴訟，連法官都不曉得怎麼辦，所以一定要有一個立法的依據，讓我們未來遇到相關\n問題再發生的時候，不會再產生適用上的疑慮，所以第三項絕對有它的必要性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:17:43.039750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:17:53.737500+08:00","text":"你不要一直針\n對花蓮縣政府，很多縣市都有這種問題，不是只有花蓮縣政府，不用太有針對性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:17:53.737500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:04.435250+08:00","text":"思銘，你是法律人……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:04.435250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:15.133000+08:00","text":"我是想要告訴你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:15.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:19.617000+08:00","text":"你再冷靜想一下，我們是要解決問題，不是要製造麻煩，也不是要……","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:19.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:20.638000+08:00","text":"所以要解決問題，讓法院不……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:20.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:22.979000+08:00","text":"你聽我講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:22.979000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:24.380000+08:00","text":"我先聽你講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:24.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:33.687000+08:00","text":"中央立法的部分才有 30%的限制，地方的沒有 30%，所以第三條沒有加這個的餘地\n。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:34.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:35.469000+08:00","text":"你把這個東西……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:35.469000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:39.396333+08:00","text":"院長，我澄清一下，如果柯總召講的，地方沒有 30%的限制，如果這句話是成立的\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:39.396333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:43.323667+08:00","text":"地方自己人，所以沒有包括……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:43.323667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:47.251000+08:00","text":"自己的地方……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:47.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:51.178333+08:00","text":"沒有 30%的限制？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:51.178333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:55.105667+08:00","text":"不可以加 30%……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:55.105667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:18:59.033000+08:00","text":"所以就沒有力道，這個法漏了嘛，法院才不曉得要怎麼適用嘛！","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:18:59.033000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:02.960333+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:02.960333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:06.887667+08:00","text":"所以你根本講的不對啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:06.887667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:10.815000+08:00","text":"兩位幹部請休息一下，我們接下來請沈伯洋委員發言，魯明哲委員要發言嗎？","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:10.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:13.136000+08:00","text":"請沈伯洋委員\n發言，發言以後，我們休息 3分鐘，請。","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:13.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:33.063000+08:00","text":"我再講一次，我覺得財政部剛剛講的其實蠻清楚的，他的意思是說這一個是你多出來\n的文字，因為第三條指的就是地方他自己做的這些稅課，然後第四條現在如果按照新法──中\n央立法，它是中央訂的地方稅，所以一個有 30%，一個沒有 30%，所以你不用畫蛇添足再訂一\n個第四條現在多出來的這一段文字，按照本來賴士葆委員的那一個，其實應該就是可以的。","quality":0.651},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:33.063000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:39.955500+08:00","text":"所\n以我覺得財政部講得蠻清楚，他只是說如果你真的要再畫蛇添足一次，你不如放在修法理由說\n明給大家聽就夠了，因為它完全是跟這一個體例不通的文字，因為地方訂的跟中央定訂的，這\n兩個是分開的，他的意思是這樣。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:39.955500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:46.848000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:46.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:19:53.740500+08:00","text":"我們現在休息 3分鐘。協 13","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:19:53.740500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:20:00.633000+08:00","text":"院長，我講一下再休息好了。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:20:00.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:20:24.478000+08:00","text":"放在說明理由裡面，我覺得也不必啦，因為不可能的事情，除非在說明欄說這個不可\n以，第三條不可以這樣放，所以賴士葆委員原始的提案也是這樣，財政部也贊成這樣，所以這\n個不是說明欄的問題，這是立法體例上完全衝突的東西。","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:20:25.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:20:29.363000+08:00","text":"我們看要不要溝通一下，3 分鐘大概不夠，我們休息 10 分鐘好了，大家私底下來溝通一下\n。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:20:29.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:20:30.365000+08:00","text":"好，休息 10分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:20:30.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:25:40.182333+08:00","text":"休息（15時 20分）\n繼續開會（15時 36分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:25:40.182333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:30:49.999667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝各位黨團幹部，大家請坐，我們再請財政部、各黨團幹部再做一輪發言，我們就做\n一個結論，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:30:49.999667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:35:59.817000+08:00","text":"請財政部長表達意見，黨團幹部們請肅靜，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:35:59.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:36:01.578000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長，我想我再說明一下，就是說第四條第一項裡面，文字加進去「中央立\n法所定」的地方稅，所以很明確，這個地方稅是中央立法而且訂了稅率，那麼地方政府可以就\n這個稅率在 30%範圍以內做一個調高，這非常明確，是中央立法的地方稅。","quality":0.378},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:36:27.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:37:10.730000+08:00","text":"至於第三條，它並\n不是中央立法的地方稅，第三條是地方政府基於財政自治的需要，他自己去訂了相關稅課的地\n方稅，那麼地方稅自然就沒有第四條第一項 30%規定的一個限制的適用範圍，這個部分非常明\n確，所以我們認為第三項事實上第一個是贅語，第二個在體例上也有一些混淆的情況，以上的\n補充。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:37:15.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:37:30.210000+08:00","text":"我想今天是我們朝野協商以來，本屆最和諧的一次，珍惜這個結果，往後是不是能夠\n如此下去，有待造化，但是造化總是弄人的。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:37:32.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:37:54.615000+08:00","text":"好，這個事情很單純、很簡單，其實剛剛財政部\n講過，中央立法部分的地方稅，最多可以加 30%，地方立法的，1%都不能加，就是這樣明確，\n所以地方立法的不能加，不能加……","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:37:54.615000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:37:57.527250+08:00","text":"現在有爭議啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:37:57.527250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:38:00.439500+08:00","text":"你聽我講完啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T15:38:00.439500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:38:03.351750+08:00","text":"到地方議會去處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:38:03.351750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:38:06.264000+08:00","text":"沒關係，等一下你可以發言，請柯總召繼續。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:38:06.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:38:20.093000+08:00","text":"所以第三條、第四條規範的範圍完全不一樣，標的也不一樣，所以把第三條放在第四\n條第三項，這是立法體例衝突，這是一點。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:38:22.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:38:45.066000+08:00","text":"當然我知道因為這個案子提案人一開始是賴士葆委\n員，他沒有第三項，但是傅崐萁自己又提一個第三項出來，這一部分剛才我講得很清楚，就是\n說沒有關係，傅崐萁現在人在香港，明天跟他說明清楚，若同意，我們大家就圓滿了，他聽得\n懂，我們就圓滿了，我們不急這天，我講的這是比較重要的事情，請大家注意聽，我希望立法\n院不要天天打架，所以這個禮拜五把該通過的法案都通過。","quality":0.626},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:39:10.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:39:19.647000+08:00","text":"也就是說第一個，剛才講的證交稅\n的部分應該加入，大家都在等，而且立法院通過後還要送總統府公告三天，所以一定要在禮拜\n協 14\n五完成三讀。","quality":0.586},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:39:21.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:39:25.730000+08:00","text":"有關地方稅法通則，禮拜五也要完成三讀，我想這個都很明確。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:39:25.730000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:39:40.661167+08:00","text":"有關運動部、運\n動彩券抓賭博的，還有促轉條例中有關權利回復條例部分，這本來就要給人家錢的，這只是再\n修而已，這些都給他通過。","quality":0.278},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:39:40.661167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:39:55.592333+08:00","text":"但是有一個，就是上禮拜五大家衝突過的原住民委員會組織法，持\n平而論，原住民委員會組織法對我來講，我希望用這樣的原則與方向處理，我跟傅總召談過，\n剛才也跟韓院長拜託過，就是禮拜五都正常處理，大家不吵架。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:39:55.592333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:40:10.523500+08:00","text":"即便是原住民委員會組織法，\n就讓大家登記發言完畢……過去都是這樣，至少在我們執政的時候是如此。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:40:10.523500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:40:25.454667+08:00","text":"所以禮拜五就一整\n天，戲要演久一點才會像。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:40:25.454667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:40:40.385833+08:00","text":"有爭議的要發言就發言，該討論的就討論；發言完畢後就表決，表\n決輸的話就算了，就是這樣，所以是非常和平的。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:40:40.385833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:40:55.317000+08:00","text":"我覺得禮拜五應該如此來進行，剛才也跟韓\n院長私下溝通過，也跟傅總召溝通過，如果不相信，請等明天傅總召出現時再來處理後事，就\n是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:40:55.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:01.822000+08:00","text":"今天這樣就差不多了，大家都有共識，等傅總召來了，你們比較好決定，我也尊重。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:03.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:08.408000+08:00","text":"至於民眾黨也很理性，都同意了，所以我們今天是不是就協商到此為止？","quality":0.552},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:08.408000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:09.408000+08:00","text":"我們還是要尊重讓他們黨團發個言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:09.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:16.455000+08:00","text":"後面還有發展觀光條例、警察人員人事條例也是我們非常關心的。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:16.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:19.557000+08:00","text":"等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:19.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:22.659000+08:00","text":"你講完我再講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:22.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:28.841000+08:00","text":"有關發展觀光條例、警察人員人事條例，還有刑事……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:30.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:31.802000+08:00","text":"這些都是民生法案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:32.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:32.943000+08:00","text":"我知道這些很重要。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:34.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:43.787000+08:00","text":"但今天先讓禮拜五的議程完成，下禮拜才能繼續協商，以上拜託\n。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:43.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:45.759500+08:00","text":"實際一點啦，不然後面的再繼續下去，到晚上 12點都搞不完了！","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:45.759500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:47.732000+08:00","text":"沒關係，柯總召講完了，請大家消化一下他剛剛講的重點再發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:47.732000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:49.704500+08:00","text":"請陳玉珍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:49.704500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:51.677000+08:00","text":"柯總召，我們現在已經在協商了，既然院會時間還沒到，我們也不能提早下班，不要\n做薪水小偷，都已經到第三案了就應該繼續。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:51.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:41:57.940000+08:00","text":"至於禮拜五，雖然我不是幹部，但我覺得民進黨\n只要不先霸占主席台，就不會有其他事情，所以我們按照原來議程，就是上禮拜五怎麼排，就\n這樣一直排下去、一直討論下去，對不對？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:41:57.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:02.559933+08:00","text":"包括大家關心的霸凌案要不要譴責、要不要成立調\n查小組，這些都是應該的，也都是百姓關心的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:02.559933+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:07.179867+08:00","text":"你剛剛講的也是民生法案，這些都是重要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:07.179867+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:11.799800+08:00","text":"那個照走，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:11.799800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:16.419733+08:00","text":"那些先走，你講的那些條例後面再來。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:16.419733+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:21.039667+08:00","text":"今天第二案是不是就保留了？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:21.039667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:25.659600+08:00","text":"法案部分再繼續協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:25.659600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:30.279533+08:00","text":"那就第三案，繼續協商交通……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:30.279533+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:34.899467+08:00","text":"法案部分擇期再協商，因為法案還沒消化完畢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:34.899467+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:39.519400+08:00","text":"時間還沒到吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:39.519400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:44.139333+08:00","text":"開會是開到幾點？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:44.139333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:48.759267+08:00","text":"沒關係，我都尊重你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:48.759267+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:53.379200+08:00","text":"院長，現在這一條要保留了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:53.379200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:42:57.999133+08:00","text":"明天再繼續。協 15","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-12-10T15:42:57.999133+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:02.619067+08:00","text":"我認為就繼續往下走，把協商做完吧。沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:02.619067+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:07.239000+08:00","text":"院長，我有不同意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:07.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:14.141000+08:00","text":"今天的協商大家已經有共識，只是等傅崐萁總召出現，\n然後你們就敢簽了，就結束了。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:15.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:18.322000+08:00","text":"所以就協商國營事業，有 38 項還沒協商。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:19.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:24.664000+08:00","text":"至於第三案、第四案\n的議程還在很後面，根本不必講，不然今天講的都白講了，太早了。以上。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:24.664000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:30.817500+08:00","text":"沒有什麼白講的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:30.817500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:36.971000+08:00","text":"我們交通委員會的委員都到了……院長！","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:36.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:42.797000+08:00","text":"部長，這樣好不好，地方稅法通則第四條條文修正就暫時保留。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:43.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:51.565000+08:00","text":"其實現在已經談得差不多，\n還差最後一點點，我想讓大家達成共識，也特別跟部長報告一下，好不好？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:51.565000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:54.605458+08:00","text":"部長，非常感謝您\n，謝謝我們財政部以及所有列席的官員、法務部還有經濟部列席的官員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:54.605458+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:43:57.645917+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，謝謝各位委員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:43:57.645917+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:00.686375+08:00","text":"好，微笑離開，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:00.686375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:03.726833+08:00","text":"我們繼續再討論下面的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:03.726833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:06.767292+08:00","text":"原來排定的議程為什麼要休息？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:06.767292+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:09.807750+08:00","text":"現在才三點多耶，不要當薪水小偷！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:09.807750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:12.848208+08:00","text":"主席，你剛才的意見，我們要表達一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:12.848208+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:15.888667+08:00","text":"我知道，沒關係啊，部長離開之後我們再來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:15.888667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:18.929125+08:00","text":"讓他們講一講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:18.929125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:21.969583+08:00","text":"人家拜託，人家都來了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:21.969583+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:25.010042+08:00","text":"我們現在沒有休息吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:25.010042+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:28.050500+08:00","text":"沒休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:28.050500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:31.090958+08:00","text":"謝謝各位列席官員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:31.090958+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:34.131417+08:00","text":"柯總召，你坐一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:34.131417+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:37.171875+08:00","text":"坐一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:37.171875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:40.212333+08:00","text":"就訂明天下午 3點，明天還有協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:40.212333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:43.252792+08:00","text":"是，但今天的議程還沒結束啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:43.252792+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:46.293250+08:00","text":"對啊，明天有明天的案子耶，今天的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:46.293250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:49.333708+08:00","text":"今天的議程……今天還那麼早耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:49.333708+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:52.374167+08:00","text":"這個協商不完，明天國營事業就不能協商了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:52.374167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:55.414625+08:00","text":"你要耽誤到國營事業喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:55.414625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:44:58.455083+08:00","text":"明天國營事業……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:44:58.455083+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:01.495542+08:00","text":"不是啦，明天還是要從這個第三案開始啊！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:01.495542+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:04.536000+08:00","text":"對啊，院長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:04.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:10.118000+08:00","text":"你不能國營事業才要協商，這個交通條例、發展觀光條例，你不注重觀光嗎？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:10.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:11.118000+08:00","text":"你們要走了喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:11.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:12.118000+08:00","text":"時間還沒到耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:10.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:11.018000+08:00","text":"警察人事條例耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:11.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:14.380000+08:00","text":"你不重視警察的退休福利嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:14.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:14.620000+08:00","text":"怎麼會這樣？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:14.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:17.021000+08:00","text":"現在才 3 點 45 分，怎\n麼不能協商呢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:17.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:19.702000+08:00","text":"你不在乎警察的福利嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:19.702000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:22.443000+08:00","text":"院長還沒有宣布結束協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:22.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:23.463000+08:00","text":"警察人員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:23.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:45:27.605000+08:00","text":"你們沒有尊重院長，而且時間還沒有到，民進黨就跑掉，時間還沒到……","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:45:27.605000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:46:32.747250+08:00","text":"時間還沒到……\n協 16","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T15:46:32.747250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:47:37.889500+08:00","text":"薪水小偷！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:47:37.889500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:48:43.031750+08:00","text":"我們休息 10分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:48:43.031750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:49:48.174000+08:00","text":"休息（15時 45分）\n繼續開會（15時 49分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:49:48.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:49:58.937000+08:00","text":"院長，我很誠懇地講，我為什麼說今天這兩案處理完畢，明天第三案國營事業那 38\n案很快，然後接下去第三案、第四案，我們就接下去，是這個目的。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:49:59.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:12.922000+08:00","text":"因為我知道你們這幾個案\n子都很急，但是急不來，坦白講，現在連議程都還沒排上，根本時間還沒到那裡，這個禮拜五、\n下禮拜五也不可能，所以我今天是講得很實際，我不可能卡你們啦，也不可能說不協商啊……","quality":0.602},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:12.922000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:16.705000+08:00","text":"你不願意協商，不就是卡我們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:16.705000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:20.488000+08:00","text":"你聽我講完，我也不可能像一般落跑的，我從來沒有這樣的紀錄……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:20.488000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:24.271000+08:00","text":"沒有卡我們，就要繼續協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:24.271000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:28.054000+08:00","text":"沒有要落跑，那我們繼續吧……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:28.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:31.837000+08:00","text":"你聽我講完，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:31.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:34.959000+08:00","text":"我在立法院三十幾年以來，沒有協商落跑的紀錄啦！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:35.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T15:50:52.228000+08:00","text":"只是這一\n整個情形，我告訴大家說，明天繼續協商也沒關係，如果今天要協商也沒關係，我也跟你們協\n商，我以老人跟你們協商，但是剛才林國成委員跟我說要到 5點，我說 5點就 5點嘛！","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:50:52.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:52:02.802500+08:00","text":"好啊，到 5點！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:52:02.802500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:53:13.377000+08:00","text":"但是現在先休息一下，等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:53:13.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:54:23.951500+08:00","text":"你年紀大可以休息，派年輕的上來……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T15:54:23.951500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:55:34.526000+08:00","text":"你休息 10分鐘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T15:55:34.526000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:56:45.100500+08:00","text":"你年紀大了，沒有辦法繼續久坐，你休息我們沒有意見啦，你們年輕的委員那麼多……","quality":0.061},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:56:45.100500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:57:55.675000+08:00","text":"我們休息到 4點整開始開會，9分鐘以後，請通知一下民進黨團。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:57:55.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T15:59:06.249500+08:00","text":"休息（15時 51分）\n繼續開會（16時）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T15:59:06.249500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:00:16.824000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，開會時間已到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:00:16.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:00:32.098000+08:00","text":"我們現在繼續朝野協商有關發展觀光條例修正草案等 7 案，向各位報告委員會審查結果：一\n、113 年 11 月 18 日共審查 11 條條文；二、保留條文 1 條──第五十三條；三、需交由黨團協\n商。","quality":0.701},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:00:32.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:00:45.109000+08:00","text":"我們召集委員一、魯明哲委員於 113年 11月 29日主持協商；二、再次協商條文及結果：一\n、第五十三條、第七十條之二；二、協商無共識。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:00:46.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:00:48.432000+08:00","text":"我們因此來協商第五十三條及第七十條之二\n。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:00:49.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:01:11.780000+08:00","text":"先介紹今天列席的官員，首先歡迎我們交通部陳部長，熱情歡迎您；歡迎教育部李副處長、\n文化部陳副處長，還有國防部、勞動部、農業部、內政部、法務部、司法院，大家一口氣起立\n吧，好多喔，歡迎大家，熱情歡迎，請坐。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:01:13.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:01:16.864000+08:00","text":"還有今天最主要的觀光署周署長，請坐。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:01:16.864000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:01:29.150923+08:00","text":"主席，我有會議詢問，可以先進行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:01:29.150923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:01:41.437846+08:00","text":"因為就今天的協商會議，我們手上拿到的開會事由，第一案就是證交稅條例，第二案\n就是地方稅法通則，證交稅第二條之二跟第十二條我們剛剛處理了，然後地方稅法通則第四條\n剛剛也保留了，現在進入是第三案的發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:01:41.437846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:01:53.724769+08:00","text":"我想問一下，其實\n我們民進黨團大家的桌上都是厚厚一疊資料，因為我們都有充分的準備，只是我想要釐清一下\n，發展觀光條例到底這一包的哪幾個條文是今天協商的標的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:01:53.724769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:02:06.011692+08:00","text":"是第二條及第七十之二，不是還\n有一個第五十三條嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:02:06.011692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:02:18.298615+08:00","text":"但是這裡的……不是，我想確認一下你們所發的開會通知，所以我在準\n備資料的時候，我們就很 confuse，第二條、第七十條之二，應當還有第五十三條嘛，還有沒有\n其他的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:02:18.298615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:02:30.585538+08:00","text":"因為怎麼樣來講，我們的協商開會通知對於條文也都會寫得很細緻，你看下面的憲法\n訴訟法，除非是像財劃法是部分條文修正案，所以沒有寫清楚條次，所以說這個部分到底是哪\n幾條？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:02:30.585538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:02:42.872462+08:00","text":"我們再確認一下，然後順序上要怎麼樣來進行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:02:42.872462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:02:55.159385+08:00","text":"另外，我也補充一下，剛剛是滿遺憾的，去上了一個廁所回來，在門口聽到很多國民黨委員\n在那邊說什麼薪水小偷什麼的，我都覺得我們不是坐在這繼續協商嗎？","quality":0.046},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:02:55.159385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:03:07.446308+08:00","text":"重點是剛剛的地方稅法\n通則，我一定要講一下，民進黨團即便柯總召不在，我們還是會在協商裡頭清楚表達我們的立\n場，如果說要再跟總召請示，我們也會在旁邊跟柯總召……我們非常清楚的立場跟態度，如果\n以剛剛地方稅法通則來說，一個條文就很簡單，是一個贅語的第三項你們也不願意放，或者是\n放立法說明，凡事都要去請示傅總召，我是真的覺得這樣子今天下面的每個案子你們是不是都\n要請示傅總召，因為傅總召不在，連剛剛那個沒有爭議的東西，所以我要說，我們現在坐回來\n了，如果要尊重提案人，每個案子，思銘委員……","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:03:07.446308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:03:19.733231+08:00","text":"我們黨團的運作還不需要你來置喙吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:03:19.733231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:03:32.020154+08:00","text":"對不起，我還在講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:03:32.020154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:03:44.307077+08:00","text":"民進黨幹嘛講國民黨怎麼運作！","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:03:44.307077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:03:56.594000+08:00","text":"主席，我在講話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:03:56.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:04:22.683000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說，我希望要討論我們就具體的討論，充分的交換意見，針對等一下\n發展觀光條例第二條、第五十三條及第七十條之二，我先跟院長做一下報告，現在我的發言是\n會議詢問，等一下進入條文有很多細緻的部分，我希望是，譬如說我發言的時候，我是可以這\n樣子一來一往、一問一答的，這樣比較有助於我們釐清，好不好？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:04:23.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:04:31.825000+08:00","text":"我現在是進行會議詢問，所\n以請議事人員跟我們說明一下，或是請院長跟我們說明一下，發展觀光條例到底哪幾條是今天\n協商的標的？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:04:31.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:04:32.825000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:04:32.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:04:47.329000+08:00","text":"今天這個協商針對的條文只有兩條，一個第五十三條，一個第七十條之二；第二\n，國民黨團遞件的時候是有「等案」，請大家看一下開會事由「三」是研商「發展觀光條例第\n二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」等案，所以國民黨團所送出來的，我們是根據這個……","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:04:48.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:05:03.534000+08:00","text":"沒有，院長，這個我還是要確認，你看嘛，剛剛證交稅的部分，開會事由「一」是研\n商「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」等案，也是有「等案」啊，我的意\n思是說，以後議事處理上要精緻、要明確，有「等案」，可是你前面還是會把條次寫清楚嘛。","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:05:04.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:05:10.216000+08:00","text":"協 18\n現在的 confuse 就發生在第三項，雖然有「等案」，可是你把第二條放進來幹嘛，對不對？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:05:10.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:05:20.894222+08:00","text":"好，\n沒關係，因為我們釐清就好，只是未來議事人員在協商的開會通知上要把條文儘量標示明確，\n也應當要明確，因為這都關乎我們要準備哪些條文。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:05:20.894222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:05:31.572444+08:00","text":"會，會準備好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:05:31.572444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:05:42.250667+08:00","text":"佳濱，您稍微等一下，因為剛剛是會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:05:42.250667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:05:52.928889+08:00","text":"那現在呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:05:52.928889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:06:03.607111+08:00","text":"那我想這樣子，您\n稍微等一下，您要會議詢問嗎？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:06:03.607111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:06:14.285333+08:00","text":"我也是會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:06:14.285333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:06:24.963556+08:00","text":"我是覺得今天大家朝野協商講清楚，不要再有什麼「薪水小偷」這\n種字眼出來，我今天是搭高鐵特別趕上來參加，我們發兩點半的朝野協商，我 2 點 29 分到臺北\n車站馬上趕過來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:06:24.963556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:06:35.641778+08:00","text":"當時我們接到的開會通知上面寫了五個案子，我被指派是第四案、第五案，\n那剛剛我們討論到第二案就已經產生那種情況了，那我們想是啊，如果的確連第二案，因為國\n民黨的傅總召不在，連第二案那麼簡單的條文文字都無法處理，那我就不曉得我們還能處理到\n哪一個案子。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:06:35.641778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:06:46.320000+08:00","text":"不過我們尊重主席，院長也說了要協商到 5 點，那我這裡很誠懇地要請示、詢問\n，我被交付的任務是為了第四案「警察人事條例」以及第五案「憲法訴訟法」，今天我們協商\n到 5點，那我們會不會處理到第三案之外，還會不會處理到第四案、第五案？","quality":0.137},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:06:46.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:02.525000+08:00","text":"我要陳述的就是，本來朝野協商就充滿很多很多的不確定，為了能夠讓今天的議程全部，我\n們假設很順利都能審理完，我們都按照議程上所列的各條次、條項、事項來，誠如剛剛我們幹\n事長所說的，今天第三案上面寫的條文是哪幾條，跟條文相關的人員，我們黨團就通知他到場\n，所以黨團也通知我說第四案、第五案，因為我是司法及法制委員會的召委，我要到場。","quality":0.603},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:02.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:04.745000+08:00","text":"我也\n到場了，我也不曉得兩點半開始，什麼時候會討論到第四案、第五案，但是我們還是坐在這裡\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:04.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:08.815000+08:00","text":"現在既然主席說到 5 點，那我要會議詢問，我今天專程從屏東再搭高鐵上來，我搭八點半的\n高鐵回去，現在又搭高鐵上來……","quality":0.271},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:08.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:12.885000+08:00","text":"今天是全院委員會，你本來就應該來的啊，很奇怪咧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:12.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:16.955000+08:00","text":"全院委員會我們都簽到了，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:16.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:21.025000+08:00","text":"我是覺得要尊重一下，那你們每個簽到的委員現\n在都在臺北，都在立法院嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:21.025000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:25.095000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:25.095000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:29.165000+08:00","text":"我詢問一下，我們到底會不會討論到第四案、第五案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:29.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:33.235000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:33.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:37.305000+08:00","text":"請陳玉珍委員，會議詢問是嗎？好，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:37.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:41.375000+08:00","text":"院長，我覺得民進黨鍾佳濱委員說得相當好，不然我們就不要把時間定到幾點，定到\n第五案審查完畢我們再休息，尊重鍾佳濱委員，你都專程上來了，我們就審查到第五案再那個\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:41.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:45.445000+08:00","text":"對不起，我剛剛有聽到是定 5點，主席、主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:45.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:49.515000+08:00","text":"不要讓他浪費時間說這樣跑上來都沒有審到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:49.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:07:53.585000+08:00","text":"傅總召不在，什麼都不能決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:07:53.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:05.711000+08:00","text":"不是喔，本黨團不是因為傅總召不在喔，是因為他是提案委員，我們要了解，但是我\n協 19\n覺得不管本黨團是怎麼運作，也沒有其他黨團置喙的空間，別的黨團怎麼可以管我們黨團內部\n是怎麼運作，這個也未免……","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:05.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:07.712000+08:00","text":"因為你們影響我們的協商結論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:07.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:12.414000+08:00","text":"沒有，那就是保留，剛剛結果就是保留嘛，因為你們不願意接受我們的意見，那就第\n三案，我們是不是在討論……","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:12.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:13.414000+08:00","text":"剛剛說 5點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:12.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:13.755000+08:00","text":"我覺得鍾佳濱委員的意見非常的好，他都專程上來了，他是司法及法制委員會的……","quality":0.485},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:13.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:23.088158+08:00","text":"剛剛說到 5點啦，我買了五點半的票。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:23.088158+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:32.421316+08:00","text":"5點是柯總召！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:32.421316+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:41.754474+08:00","text":"剛剛主席說 5點啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:41.754474+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:08:51.087632+08:00","text":"5 點是柯總召說的，而且剛剛是你們已經說要離席，我們才會說薪水小偷，你們才回\n來的，一定要還原這個真相。好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:08:51.087632+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:00.420789+08:00","text":"今天難得一團和氣，我們就進入案子了啦，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:00.420789+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:09.753947+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:09.753947+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:19.087105+08:00","text":"大家都繼續進入\n案子了啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:19.087105+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:28.420263+08:00","text":"我也要會議詢問，不是只有民進黨可以會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:28.420263+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:37.753421+08:00","text":"我想我們必須要釐清一點，就是我\n們剛才院長非常清楚已經進入第三案了，我不知道為什麼還有我們參與協商的又倒退嚕，在第\n二案那邊嚕喔，我覺得這樣真的是很耽誤，使得我們的協商效率非常低，讓我非常擔心的是，\n事實上試圖阻撓我們在第三案之後的協商，所以我希望我們接下來是不是就不要再倒退嚕了，\n我們這個第三案非常重要，這麼多的觀光產業都在關心的法案，我們就不要再倒退嚕。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:37.753421+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:47.086579+08:00","text":"第二點\n就是我們剛才大家都關心的，其實我們每一個法案大家都很重視，我剛才也覺得鍾佳濱委員他\n說的，他其實是好像第四案還有第五案，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:47.086579+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:09:56.419737+08:00","text":"事實上我們現在也有好多位我們交通委員會\n的委員，他們也是來自臺北市以外的，特別來參與協商，我非常感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:09:56.419737+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:10:05.752895+08:00","text":"所以，我們基於尊重今\n天特別來協商的各位委員的權益，至少我們今天真的應該就是進度不是只侷限在我們的第三案\n，第四案、第五案也應該來做協商。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:10:05.752895+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:10:15.086053+08:00","text":"所以我覺得在這邊是不是也幫我們來……就是已經進入我\n們協商會場的所有委員來做一個澄清，就是我們也希望能夠把這些相關的議案統統完成。","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:10:15.086053+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:10:24.419211+08:00","text":"至於剛才講什麼薪水小偷，我想大家從那個畫面上看得非常清楚啊，剛才這一排全部都走光\n啦，如果不是我們堅持，本來就是都跑光啦，我們講的有什麼錯嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:10:24.419211+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:10:33.752368+08:00","text":"不要在這邊又在混水摸魚\n，又在那邊倒因為果，從畫面上有畫面、有清楚、有真相，剛才你們本來就都走光啦，不是嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:10:33.752368+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:10:43.085526+08:00","text":"所以我們本來就拒絕做薪水小偷，有人要做薪水小偷，我們當然不願意做薪水小偷，好不好\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:10:43.085526+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:10:52.418684+08:00","text":"不過……我知道，好，李委員，我知道，沈委員稍微等一下，不過我要提醒一下黨團幹部，\n今天此時此刻，3個總召都不在，好不好？","quality":0.064},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:10:52.418684+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:01.751842+08:00","text":"各位可以儘量勇敢發言，好，李委員請簡短、扼要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:01.751842+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:11.085000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:11.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:21.877000+08:00","text":"其實我們會議詢問的第一個要點就是說，接下來的協商，如果國民黨黨團\n的傅總召不在的時候，到底協商算不算數？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:21.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:25.081000+08:00","text":"因為其實剛剛講到第二個案子的時候就卡住了嘛。協 20不在……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:25.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:28.121200+08:00","text":"尊重我發言啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:28.121200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:31.161400+08:00","text":"王委員，尊重一下我發言啦，尊重一下發言啦，主席、主席，他不尊\n重你耶，主席，他不尊重你啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:31.161400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:34.201600+08:00","text":"他不尊重你啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:34.201600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:37.241800+08:00","text":"人家發言，他就說是廢話，這樣不行吧！主席！","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:37.241800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:40.282000+08:00","text":"尊重好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:40.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:43.322200+08:00","text":"互相尊重啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:43.322200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:46.362400+08:00","text":"你講那麼多廢話，我也沒講說你是講廢話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:46.362400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:49.402600+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:49.402600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:52.442800+08:00","text":"主席，會議詢問……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:52.442800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:55.483000+08:00","text":"你剛剛一路都在講廢話，我也沒有阻止你講廢話，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:55.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:11:56.884000+08:00","text":"好，我是希望能夠尊重發言啦。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:11:58.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:09.950000+08:00","text":"第二個就是說，不要扯別人是什麼薪水小偷，那請問\n一下，現在在立法院裡面，院長可以去查一下，在立法院裡面，有多少立法委員現在在辦公室\n裡面？","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:10.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:14.332000+08:00","text":"現在去查一下，我們已經在這邊做協商了，那協商…………","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:14.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:21.455000+08:00","text":"你看，又來了，他又不尊重你了，他又不尊重你了，又不尊重你了，又不尊重了，又\n不尊重發言了，這麼不尊重王院長啊，是你在講薪水小偷的啊！","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:21.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:26.288667+08:00","text":"薪水小偷是你在講的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:26.288667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:31.122333+08:00","text":"薪水\n小偷就是你在講的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:31.122333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:35.956000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:35.956000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:40.789667+08:00","text":"薪水小偷就是你在講的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:40.789667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:45.623333+08:00","text":"你這樣指責，你的國民黨很多的委員都是薪水小偷啊，現\n在就不在院內裡面啊！","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:45.623333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:50.457000+08:00","text":"李委員，我們就針對會議詢問，不過，因為你太激動了，你叫什麼王院長，我姓韓。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:50.457000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:12:55.290667+08:00","text":"好，\nOK了嘛，好，謝謝，接著沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:12:55.290667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:00.124333+08:00","text":"我還沒有講完，因為他一直阻撓我，抱歉，韓院長，抱歉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:00.124333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:04.958000+08:00","text":"沒有啊，我是會議詢問嘛，因為他一直打擾我，一直阻斷我啊，對不對？","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:04.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:09.520000+08:00","text":"所以我是認\n為說，不要去指控別人是薪水小偷，也不要有年齡歧視，對於我們的柯總召年齡歧視，就是你\n啊，我就是講陳玉珍。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:09.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:10.520000+08:00","text":"敬老尊賢，我尊重他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:14.342000+08:00","text":"我就是講你陳玉珍，對於柯總召就是做年齡歧視。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:14.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:15.463000+08:00","text":"我是敬老尊賢。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:15.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:18.004000+08:00","text":"你就欺負……就覺得說他好像年紀比你大……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:18.004000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:19.004000+08:00","text":"我不忍心他在那邊坐那麼久，讓你們年輕人上來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:18.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:23.726000+08:00","text":"又來了，韓院長、韓院長，我這次叫對了，你看他又阻撓我講話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:23.726000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:24.726000+08:00","text":"你不要點名我啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:23.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:25.667000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:26.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:32.410000+08:00","text":"每次我來這邊講話的時候，我也算是新進的嘛，就是這樣子會欺負人家這樣\n而已啊。協 21","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:32.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:45.112250+08:00","text":"好，謝謝喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:45.112250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:13:57.814500+08:00","text":"沈委員，會議詢問跟會議有關的，拜託。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:13:57.814500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:10.516750+08:00","text":"好，我簡短講一下，就是說黨團協商非常多次，有很多次我講到一半，不管是國民黨\n還是民眾黨都直接走掉，好幾次，直播都有錄到，所以我說真的沒有必要講這一些啦，說真的\n，用什麼薪水小偷等等的字眼，我覺得真的是沒有必要啦，不然如果現在真的薪水小偷，那應\n該是在香港的那一位啊，對不對？","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:10.516750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:23.219000+08:00","text":"就是沒有必要這樣，我一天到晚講，然後其他人就直接走掉\n，這是第一個；第二個是程序上的問題，我知道因為發展觀光條例畢竟就是要到 26 號才 1 個月\n，當然要先協商也不是不行，但是為什麼要在冷卻期的過程當中，現在就把它排到議程上面，\n我覺得這也是我要詢問的地方，就這兩點。","quality":0.009},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:23.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:32.922000+08:00","text":"因為國民黨黨團正式來請求，民進黨黨團如果提出請求，我們也一定要照辦，院本部一定要\n辦，特別跟沈委員解釋一下，好不好？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:33.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:37.023000+08:00","text":"那你每次發言，你看我當主席都很尊重你，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:38.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:39.164000+08:00","text":"多\n羨慕你的髮型啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:39.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:42.445000+08:00","text":"好，我們現在請國民黨團提案黨團，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:42.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:47.187429+08:00","text":"我們現在開始正式進入……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:47.187429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:51.929857+08:00","text":"主席，我們請我們的召委好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:51.929857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:14:56.672286+08:00","text":"召委已經坐很久了，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:14:56.672286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:15:01.414714+08:00","text":"我們請國民黨團魯明哲召委，請發言。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2024-12-10T16:15:01.414714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:15:06.157143+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2024-12-10T16:15:06.157143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:15:10.899571+08:00","text":"各黨團的各位前輩，還有我們列席的政府官員。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2024-12-10T16:15:10.899571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:15:15.642000+08:00","text":"針對於我們今\n天討論事由的第三項發展觀光條例相關的修法，今天進行立法院級的黨團協商，今天保留到院\n會的，甚至有一些要修正的，就是第五十三條及第七十條之二這兩個條文，請大家去參閱。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2024-12-10T16:15:15.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:16:15.635000+08:00","text":"第\n五十三條的部分，最主要其實沒有條文修正不同的版本，而是針對原本裡面的內容，針對於玷\n辱國家榮譽和損害國家利益，怎麼樣在執法過程中會被擴大解釋，我們在交通委員會討論的過\n程中，有幾位委員提出來這種疑慮，不希望在現在整個慘澹的旅遊業，這樣一個情境被擴大解\n釋，當然在第五十三條的修法，現在是把罰則增加大概一倍左右，這個部分是第五十三條，希\n望不要擴大解釋，並沒有針對於條文文字修正做處理。","quality":0.32},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2024-12-10T16:16:16.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:16:23.239000+08:00","text":"另外第七十條之二，就是針對於再延長 5\n年的部分，就這兩個條文，以上說明。謝謝。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:16:23.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:16:23.339000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:16:23.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:16:25.840667+08:00","text":"主席，我建議我們是不是就先進行第五十三條的討論，好不好？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:16:25.840667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:16:28.342333+08:00","text":"等一下再第七十條之\n二。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:16:28.342333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:16:30.844000+08:00","text":"好，非常謝謝剛剛魯召委的說明，讓我們很清楚當初在交通委員會討論的過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:16:30.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:17:05.339000+08:00","text":"我現在針對\n第五十三條的部分來表達我的意見，就我所了解，因為我也很努力去做了一些功課，當初在審\n查會當中，大家希望對於玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益規定，這兩個內容要予以調整。","quality":0.494},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:17:05.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:17:15.568636+08:00","text":"我先把\n我所知的就教於部長或者是署長，所謂玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益，就我所知，我先不要講\n其他的法令，我先以發展觀光條例來講好了，發展觀光條例是民國 58 年制定，對不對？","quality":0.151},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:17:15.568636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:17:25.798273+08:00","text":"現在主\n席說我們可以一問一答，你們可以回答，是 58年？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:17:25.798273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:17:36.027909+08:00","text":"部長、署長可以直接回答，這樣速度快。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:17:36.027909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:17:46.257545+08:00","text":"謝謝，是民國 58年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:17:46.257545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:17:56.487182+08:00","text":"所以 58年 7月 15號制定，當初的這一個條文是第二十四條。是。協 22","quality":0.087},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:17:56.487182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:18:06.716818+08:00","text":"最原始 original，民國 58年我都還沒出生，那時候就寫得很清楚：觀光事業經營者，\n有玷辱國家榮譽、妨礙善良風俗，或詐騙旅客之行為者，所以這個玷辱國家榮譽在第一次立法\n的時候就有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:18:06.716818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:18:16.946455+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:18:16.946455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:18:27.176091+08:00","text":"再來，進入第一修，發展觀光條例的第一次修正是民國 69年 11月 7號，條次調整為\n第三十八條，對不對？是。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:18:27.176091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:18:37.405727+08:00","text":"很具體的，第一個，它對於罰鍰做了處理；第二，一樣，它的玷辱國家榮譽繼續擺著\n，只是罰鍰做調整，部長，是這樣嘛！","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:18:37.405727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:18:47.635364+08:00","text":"對，文字是這樣。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:18:47.635364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:18:57.865000+08:00","text":"第二次的修正，再修正是民國 90 年 10 月 31 號，條次就變成第五十三條，我們對於\n主體，因為觀光產業一直在精進，有更多元的觀光產業，所以對於這個前提，本來是講觀光事\n業經營者，在 90 年修正的時候，第五十三條是把它更細緻了，變成觀光旅館業，還有旅館業、\n旅行業、觀光遊樂業或民宿經營者，對不對？","quality":0.229},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:18:57.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:19:01.927000+08:00","text":"主題做了這個調整，更細緻多元，與時俱進。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:19:01.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:19:06.671000+08:00","text":"但\n是同樣的，玷辱國家榮譽這個部分都還在，損害國家利益出現了，在 69 年跟 90 年這兩次都出\n現這個樣態，都出現了！","quality":0.489},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:19:06.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:19:30.410000+08:00","text":"90 年修正的時候，本來是 5,000 元以上，5 萬以下的罰鍰，這一次也修\n正更提高為 3 萬至 15 萬，而且還加重，情節重大者會停止部分營業，或者是廢止執照。","quality":0.054},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:19:30.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:19:33.871000+08:00","text":"所以我\n這些說法應當都是整個沿革嘛？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:19:33.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:19:34.911000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯，整個過程是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:19:34.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:19:56.302000+08:00","text":"最近一次，距離我們今天修法，也就是現行法，應當是民國 111年 5月 3號修正的，\n第五十三條的條次就沒有動，再一次針對所謂的觀光旅館業這些經營者，有玷辱國家榮譽、損\n害國家利益，它都保留這些樣態，然後再一次地加重罰則，處新臺幣十五萬元以上至五十萬元\n以下，我們還增加了第二項、第三項提升了罰則，所以我就這樣嚴格的修法，我要論述跟說明\n的是「玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益」的這個樣態其實從民國 58年到現在一路都有。","quality":0.425},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:19:56.302000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:20:12.481500+08:00","text":"對，沒錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:20:12.481500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:20:28.661000+08:00","text":"所以並沒有什麼……你們認為有什麼調整的必要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:20:28.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:20:33.465000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們當然認為沒有調整的必要，尤其是涉及……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:20:33.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:20:34.606000+08:00","text":"您可以大聲一點，靠近一下麥克風。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:20:34.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:20:51.659000+08:00","text":"跟國家榮譽或者是國家利益這些用語的法律跟命令，其實我們在其他法律跟規定裡面\n也相當地多，其中涉及國家榮譽的總共有 8 種法令跟條文，交通部有涉及 6 種，其他部會有 2\n種……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:20:51.659000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:20:58.706333+08:00","text":"部長，您跳躍得太快了，我現在一個、一個跟您釐清，所以就本法，我們在講發展觀\n光條例第五十三條修法沿革，我要驗證的是，從 original的立法……","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:20:58.706333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:05.753667+08:00","text":"對，從民國 58年一直到現在都是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:05.753667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:12.801000+08:00","text":"從民國 58年到現在它都存在，而交通部門認為它還是需要存在。協 23","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:12.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:19.848333+08:00","text":"是，我們認為它還需要存在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:19.848333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:26.895667+08:00","text":"第二個是，因為我所……您剛才也提到，我想詢問您的第二點是，我們今天審發展觀\n光條例，它相對是一個觀光業比較大的母法，但是對於其他觀光產業，可能有交通運輸業，可\n能有船舶，可能有其他商家的規範等等，是不是對於這種相同樣態的管理或裁罰的前提都在？","quality":0.009},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:26.895667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:33.943000+08:00","text":"您可不可以再講一下，有多少法律？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:33.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:40.990333+08:00","text":"是，其實總共有 69種法令跟法規裡面都有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:40.990333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:48.037667+08:00","text":"69種法律？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:48.037667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:21:55.085000+08:00","text":"跟國家榮譽相關的主要當然是民宿管理辦法，還有汽車業運輸管理辦法，還有旅行業\n管理辦法等等，總共 6 條跟交通部相關，其他有 2 條是跟其他部會相關。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:21:55.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:02.132333+08:00","text":"其中涉及國家利益的\n部分有 61 種法令，與交通部相關的是一種，與其他部會相關有 60 種，也應該……我自己在想\n，其他部會也都是從當時在設定法令的過程當中，也就把這兩句放進去了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:02.132333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:09.179667+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:09.179667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:16.227000+08:00","text":"因為交通部是其中一個，我想再驗證一下，我想要問一下外交部，外交部\n代表在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:16.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:23.274333+08:00","text":"沒有嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:23.274333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:30.321667+08:00","text":"那教育部有嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:30.321667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:37.369000+08:00","text":"今天有沒有教育部？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:37.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:48.841000+08:00","text":"我們對於這個所謂同樣的規範「玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益」在教育部相關的法律\n裡應當也滿多是有規範的吧？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:48.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:49.841000+08:00","text":"教育部代表。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:48.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.463000+08:00","text":"請教育部李副處長不用客氣，請直接發言，前面有麥克風。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.723000+08:00","text":"您往前走過來，對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:52.723000+08:00","text":"應當也都有吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:52.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:53.723000+08:00","text":"因為如果這樣看起來，有 69 個法規在講「玷辱國家榮譽」，它都有\n入法規範……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李副處長啟光","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:53.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:54.723000+08:00","text":"應該是有，我們回去再查詢一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:54.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:55.723000+08:00","text":"好，但我要告訴你不是應該有，你們國家代表隊教練與選手選拔培訓及參賽處理辦法\n就有，我是隨便舉一個，所以其他部會……這裡有內政部代表嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:55.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:56.723000+08:00","text":"你們的入出國及移民法是不是也有相關規範？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.723000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:22:51.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:23:06.065875+08:00","text":"用這樣的詞句去規範不要有任\n何「玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益」的條文。","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"鄔專門委員迪嘉","start":"2024-12-10T16:23:06.065875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:23:20.408750+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是國家公園署，關於移民署的這個部分我回去再詳查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:23:20.408750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:23:34.751625+08:00","text":"好，我只是要舉例，我覺得我們討論法律就是要這樣子，這不是任何新生事務在這一\n次的修法，就本法來講，發展觀光條例從 58 年到現在，一修、二修、三修、四修它都存在，當\n然我們現在還是可以討論要不要刪除，但我覺得不要看到「玷辱國家名譽」、看到「國家」就\n害怕，或是就要調整。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:23:34.751625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:23:49.094500+08:00","text":"另外我再問一下，有關你們的裁罰，從過去到現在有用這個條文裁罰了哪一些適用這個條文\n，然後保障了旅客安全或權益的，可以說明一下嗎？","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:23:49.094500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:24:03.437375+08:00","text":"報告委員，這方面的細節，院長，方不方便請署長？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:24:03.437375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:24:17.780250+08:00","text":"好，請署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:24:17.780250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:24:32.123125+08:00","text":"跟主席和各位委員報告，其實像帶團的時候有幾個案例，譬如地接社就把這些旅客直\n接送到警察局去後就落跑了，這叫做「丟包」。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:24:32.123125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:24:46.466000+08:00","text":"這是丟包的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:24:46.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:24:59.645000+08:00","text":"國外跟國內都有類似的案例，還有我們在疫情期間，諾富特在執行防疫的時候，確實\n我們也是用這個條文，否則的話，沒辦法維持觀光產業的秩序。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:24:59.645000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:04.209615+08:00","text":"好，所以你們認為，在很多執法中，我們都希望能確保遊客的安全，而且維護相關觀\n光從業人員他的形象、他的正向的 reputation，這是我們這個法律、這個條文的目的。是。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:04.209615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:08.774231+08:00","text":"最後在罰則的部分，因為現在處理到罰則了，你們政府部門對於這個條次的罰則的主\n張為何？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:08.774231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:13.338846+08:00","text":"因為我們觀光署去年成立的時候、組改之後，我們也對發展觀光條例做了整個的檢討\n，我們也有對這一項做了一些修正，跟委員提案的內容大致是一致的。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:13.338846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:17.903462+08:00","text":"所以你們可以接受委員各個版本的提案？是。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:17.903462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:22.468077+08:00","text":"是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:22.468077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:27.032692+08:00","text":"你們主張的條文……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:27.032692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:31.597308+08:00","text":"對不起……","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:31.597308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:36.161923+08:00","text":"我們原則上就是修上限，然後下限大概都是維持的。好。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:36.161923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:40.726538+08:00","text":"這個部分確實是有需要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:40.726538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:45.291154+08:00","text":"幹事長，不好意思我打斷一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:45.291154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:49.855769+08:00","text":"我在進行發言……沒有！沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:49.855769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:54.420385+08:00","text":"我只是打斷說明一下，因為從頭到尾，這些條文沒有說要刪除……","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:54.420385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:25:58.985000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我只是在問……在委員會討論的過程……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:25:58.985000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:03.549615+08:00","text":"我知道，罰鍰的部分也沒有要改變……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:03.549615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:08.114231+08:00","text":"這是朝野協商，把審查會過程當中可能有委員的意見提出，這就是朝野協商嘛！是。","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:08.114231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:12.678846+08:00","text":"所以主席我可以繼續嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:12.678846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:17.243462+08:00","text":"可以，我只是想提醒幹事長沒有要刪除，不要在不對的基礎上，這樣我們會浪費很多\n時間。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:17.243462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:21.808077+08:00","text":"我可以繼續講嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:21.808077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:26.372692+08:00","text":"怎麼別人在很理性、專業、深入地討論條文，結果被講是浪費時間，主席，我抗議喔\n！","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:26.372692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:30.937308+08:00","text":"主席，你制止一下，我剛剛這麼專業，找了這麼多資料，怎麼會有在野黨的委員說我\n協 25\n在浪費時間？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:30.937308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:35.501923+08:00","text":"你的資料都很好，但就是因為剛才幹事長誤會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:35.501923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:40.066538+08:00","text":"要糾正您剛才……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:40.066538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:44.631154+08:00","text":"沒有，因為幹事長誤會說要刪除，所以我剛剛特別說明沒有要刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:44.631154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:49.195769+08:00","text":"主席，我怎麼討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:49.195769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:53.760385+08:00","text":"主席，您認為我有在浪費時間嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:53.760385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:26:58.325000+08:00","text":"怎麼可以有委員這樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:26:58.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:02.889615+08:00","text":"你要不要更正一下或請他對\n我表達一下 applogize……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:02.889615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:07.454231+08:00","text":"不要把別人的認真當兒戲，不要把別人討論條文的專業準備，當作在浪費時間，我覺\n得這樣我很不能接受欸！","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:07.454231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:12.018846+08:00","text":"我需要一個 applogize……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:12.018846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:16.583462+08:00","text":"那我等一下要不要再討論啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:16.583462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:21.148077+08:00","text":"主席，如果我們幹事長不詢問的話，可不可以換我來詢問？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:21.148077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:25.712692+08:00","text":"對不起！主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:25.712692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:30.277308+08:00","text":"你不繼續，就換人來繼續嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:30.277308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:34.841923+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:34.841923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:39.406538+08:00","text":"我剛才是做說明……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:39.406538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:43.971154+08:00","text":"但是您剛剛講浪費時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:43.971154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:48.535769+08:00","text":"我沒有說你的資料是不對的，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:48.535769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:53.100385+08:00","text":"你不詢問的話，換別人來詢問嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:53.100385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:27:57.665000+08:00","text":"主席，我的發言時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:27:57.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:01.828000+08:00","text":"你的發言時間很久了，你的發言時間非常久了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:02.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:07.611000+08:00","text":"主席，這是我的發言時間。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:07.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:08.611000+08:00","text":"稍微控制一下時間，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:08.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:09.611000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:07.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:08.151000+08:00","text":"不要這樣軟土深掘……哇！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:08.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:13.174000+08:00","text":"嚇死了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:13.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:15.156000+08:00","text":"所以這個條文第五十三條……主席！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:15.156000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:17.947500+08:00","text":"拍什麼桌子啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:17.947500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:20.739000+08:00","text":"你跟主席拍什麼桌子啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:20.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:25.002000+08:00","text":"我不是對主席拍桌子，我是對於一直在插話的委員很不能忍受。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:25.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:27.107000+08:00","text":"拍什麼桌子啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:27.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:36.295000+08:00","text":"所以這個條文的部分關於上限的調整，就是再確認一下你們的立場。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:36.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:37.856000+08:00","text":"下限不做調整，上限做調整。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:38.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:38.576000+08:00","text":"上限酌予提升？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:38.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:39.576000+08:00","text":"對，酌予提升。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:39.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:39.997000+08:00","text":"好，我了解，謝謝。協 26","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:39.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:28:56.292250+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員，其實回歸一下，所有的條文並沒有刪除，唯一的差別在於經法院判決，所\n以我覺得司法院的態度也是滿重要的，我提醒一下下面發言的委員，可能司法院的態度非常關\n鍵。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:28:56.292250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:29:12.587500+08:00","text":"接下來我們請林倩綺委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-12-10T16:29:12.587500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:29:28.882750+08:00","text":"主席、各位立院同仁，還有行政院的同仁，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-12-10T16:29:28.882750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:29:45.178000+08:00","text":"我的是針對發展觀光條例第三十\n六條及第六十條，我是認同上一回大家對於水域安全的關心，我這邊也呼籲，在這樣一個關心\n之下，我們希望行政院能夠提出更積極的處理，我們不希望每次在暑期旺季裡面，就會有一些\n傷害產生，所以這個積極處理，希望行政院就你們的相關條文，把傷害減低到最低，然後水域\n的開放上，必須要有更積極的管理，所以我這邊提出來一個附帶決議。謝謝。","quality":0.051},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:29:45.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:29:47.900000+08:00","text":"好，我們接下來請沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:29:50.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:29:51.283000+08:00","text":"我簡短先說明。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:29:52.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:29:57.248000+08:00","text":"第一個、剛剛為什麼會討論到玷汙國家榮譽等等之類的？","quality":0.435},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:29:57.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:30:04.895000+08:00","text":"那是因為在\n委員會討論的時候有委員有這樣的意見，就是這個適不適合訂在上面，所以剛剛思瑤委員要講\n這個的理由是這個。","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:30:06.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:30:19.625000+08:00","text":"第二個、我覺得蠻重要的一件事情是，等一下我們要去討論那個額度的上限、下限，那個應\n該是後面，因為我覺得大家對於這件事情比較沒有爭議，就只是那個額度要怎麼調，但這個條\n文裡面有一個很大的問題在哪裡？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:30:19.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:30:34.034000+08:00","text":"就是許宇甄委員這個提案加了幾句話，他說「經法院判決確\n定者」，後面說可以廢止執照或登記什麼的，這個「經法院判決確定者」等於會實質就弱化主\n管機關了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:30:35.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:01.027000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，像最近我們有上將到中國參與統戰，國防部不是就直接做了一個裁處\n，去砍他的退休金等等之類的，這個完全無待於任何的司法判決，就可以先做，這是主管機關\n的權責，如果司法另外又有案子，那是他的事情，那是另外一件事，司法有案子、有刑責或者\n有罰金跟主管機關有沒有罰鍰完全是兩件事，如果今天他加這句話「經法院判決確定者」的話\n，那主管機關不用玩了，什麼都要等司法，這個是不合理的！","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:01.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:02.027000+08:00","text":"因為在整個法律的設計體系沒有\n這個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:02.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:03.027000+08:00","text":"至於後面這個要怎麼調整，說要廢止登記，又說額度要拉高，下限、上限要怎麼調\n，都沒問題，但這個「經法院判決確定者」不能留啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:03.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:04.027000+08:00","text":"更不要講還有一個問題，玷汙國家榮譽\n及損害國家利益很多現在沒有，我們現在的法令還不完全，我們針對統戰等等之類的法令是不\n完備的，不完備，根本就沒有相關的案子來判決確定，那主管機關要怎麼做？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:04.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:05.027000+08:00","text":"所以這個「經法\n院判決確定者」一定要拿掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:01.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:54.449000+08:00","text":"最後一個在一個小地方，就是在修法理由有特別提到國家法益、社會法益與個人法益的順序\n區分等等之類的，其實這在立法例上面訂成一條是有的，但如果要拆開變得比較漂亮，我個人\n也是贊成，大概就是這樣，謝謝。","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:54.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:55.271000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:31:55.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:31:58.197000+08:00","text":"接下來請蔡易餘委員發言，黃健豪委員請準備。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:32:02.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:32:02.267000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:32:03.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:32:09.570000+08:00","text":"我想如同主席一開始裁示的，我們現在是從第五十三條先討論。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:32:11.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:32:25.696000+08:00","text":"但剛剛林\n協 27\n倩綺委員有講到第三十六條，事實上，對於林倩綺委員講的第三十六條，我也是很關心，因為\n我每年都在推動從我們布袋騎水上摩托車到澎湖，那有 60 公里，而且我很想要從宜蘭可以騎到\n日本的與那國島，但與那國島沒有開放，所以我沒辦法騎去，那對我來說是一個遺憾！","quality":0.439},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:32:25.696000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:32:44.099727+08:00","text":"所以我\n也是主張我們對於水域是越開放越好，林倩綺委員的附帶決議我還沒有看到，我希望第三十六\n條也是可以充分討論的，因為我覺得整個臺灣對於海洋的重視是值得討論的，我就覺得我今天\n來這裡接下來會想要去聊第三十六條的問題。","quality":0.09},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:32:44.099727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:33:02.503455+08:00","text":"主席，不好意思！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:33:02.503455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:33:20.907182+08:00","text":"我剛剛這樣離題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:33:20.907182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:33:39.310909+08:00","text":"我還是回到第五十三條，第五十三條確實整個立法例有\n它的一個歷史脈絡，它從 58 年的時候是第二十四條，到了 69 年的時候變成第三十八條，到了\n90 年的時候就進入到了第五十三條，就是跟現在比較類似、雷同的一個立法結構，在 58 年第二\n十四條的時候，事實上，它的文字就已經有這樣的論述，就是觀光事業經營者有玷汙國家榮譽\n、妨害善良風俗或詐騙旅客之行為者，觀光事業主管機關得處多少的罰鍰，第三十八條的時候\n一樣是，看出來接下來的修法就是把罰鍰提高，針對所謂觀光業者的受僱人員，也有這樣對應\n的一些處罰，所以處罰是越來越嚴格，看起來嚴格，處罰的金額也有提高。","quality":0.232},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:33:39.310909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:33:57.714636+08:00","text":"基本上，大家是重\n視這件事，我剛剛看到部長也有舉出幾個例子，說在 95 年的時候曾經有旅遊業者接待中國的旅\n客來臺灣，結果竟然被丟包在航警局，所以當時有去做罰鍰 15 萬元，我想到我們今年 2 月的時\n候是不是也有同樣是臺灣的旅行社，也是辦旅遊團，可是它是到越南富國島，結果在富國島把\n人家丟包，當時也是鬧得很大，後來交通部有做裁處，但是是不是用第五十三條，我不清楚，\n我印象中當時好像不是用這一條，是用消保法，一樣是有勒令停業三個月。","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:33:57.714636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:34:16.118364+08:00","text":"我認為，第一個我\n是贊成……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:34:16.118364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:34:34.522091+08:00","text":"好，那是不是回答一下我剛剛說的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:34:34.522091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:34:52.925818+08:00","text":"因為當時的情勢用消保法直接裁罰停業三個月是最快的，所以我們那時候直接用消保\n法來執行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:34:52.925818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:35:11.329545+08:00","text":"那我有一點不懂，為什麼當時沒有用這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:35:11.329545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:35:29.733273+08:00","text":"因為那時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:35:29.733273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:35:48.137000+08:00","text":"就是說你們在做條文的評估的時候，當時是為什麼……","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:35:48.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:35:58.464000+08:00","text":"因為還有一些是需要查證的，還有我們直接裁罰只有 15 萬，太低，所以應該採取最\n嚴格的，就是停業三個月。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:35:58.464000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:35:59.464000+08:00","text":"所以消保法會比這個第五十三條的處罰……","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:35:59.464000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:00.464000+08:00","text":"對，當時的情境是這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:35:58.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:02.947000+08:00","text":"當時的情境是這樣，但是第五十三條一樣可以停業，甚至可以廢止其營業執照，第五\n十三條一樣有這樣的規定。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:02.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:14.111800+08:00","text":"也是要進行調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:14.111800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:25.276600+08:00","text":"也是要進行調查？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:25.276600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:36.441400+08:00","text":"對，為了確保當時我們國人在富國島的情況，所以我們就直接以消費者保護為最優先\n協 28\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:36.441400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:47.606200+08:00","text":"這個我說真的有點不懂，如果有第五十三條可以來做，第五十三條感覺是對業者的處\n罰，消保法感覺是對當次契約行為違約的處罰，一樣都是處罰，但是它的效果……","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:47.606200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:58.771000+08:00","text":"因為當時在過年期間，所以我們對消費者保護是最優先，所以看不同的情境。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:58.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:36:59.011000+08:00","text":"我再消化一下。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:36:59.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:37:22.371000+08:00","text":"但是我要講的是，在旅遊的時候，如果有這樣丟包的情形，它是一個軒然大波，而且\n這種軒然大波對臺灣在旅遊方面會有很大的傷害，我舉的例子雖然是在國外，但是一樣是有傷\n害到，如果發生在國內，也會造成傷害。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:37:23.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:37:34.758000+08:00","text":"事實上我還有想到另外一個例子，這一次一樣是在年\n初的時候有臺灣的網紅跑到人家國家去，結果自導自演去罵人家國家，那是柬埔寨嘛！小雞。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:37:34.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:37:49.740667+08:00","text":"對，結果柬埔寨那邊是沒有審判，直接抓起來，就關了，現在還不知道關出來沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:37:49.740667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:38:04.723333+08:00","text":"蔡書記長，我想回到條文，你慢慢消化一下，後面還有兩位委員要發言。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:38:04.723333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:38:19.706000+08:00","text":"我是想就有那樣的狀況，所以基本上我認為這樣的一個處罰，它不用留著說一定要經\n過司法的確定，我認為如同沈伯洋委員說的，這個法條留著它的彈性，而且這個法條這樣的文\n字，雖然說它的要件法律的明確性是比較不足的，但是我們知道有時候觀光的態樣很多種，到\n底哪一種可能會傷害到整個臺灣的觀光產業？","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:38:19.706000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:38:34.688667+08:00","text":"所以它這樣的保留、這樣文字有不確定性，但是\n也因此有充分的彈性，比方說它有詐騙旅客、有妨害善良風俗，把類似這樣不確定的法律文字\n保留著，我覺得因應各種突發狀況，行政機關因應這樣狀況的時候總是有一個武器、有一個適\n當的懲處，有時候一些突發事件發生的時候有一些民怨，行政機關總是要有立即、當然、必要\n的一些處置，這個是我的意見，謝謝。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:38:34.688667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:38:49.671333+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡易餘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:38:49.671333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:39:04.654000+08:00","text":"接著請黃健豪委員發言，請王鴻薇委員準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:39:04.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:39:04.974000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:39:05.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:39:07.576000+08:00","text":"各位委員、各位首長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:39:09.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:39:28.667000+08:00","text":"發展觀光條例第五十三條所謂玷污國家榮譽、\n損害國家利益，這部分是我在委員會裡面提出來的一些意見，當然我要先講前提，我沒有要刪\n除這個字眼，但是我對它的定義，因為當時第一時間在詢問觀光署跟交通部的時候，他們其實\n答不出來，後來有提供我資料。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:39:28.667000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:39:42.162091+08:00","text":"我跟各位分享，從立法以來他們罰過三個案子，一個就是大家\n提到的丟包，這個丟包事件是發生在民國 95 年 8 月 7 號，有一個陸客被丟包，他們後來依照這\n個玷污國家榮譽跟損害國家利益罰了 15 萬；後來是 109 年的時候針對幫人做地下匯兌，直接幫\n他換錢，所以一樣是用這一條罰了 15 萬。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:39:42.162091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:39:55.657182+08:00","text":"還有一個是疫情期間造成防疫破口，防疫旅館的部分\n也是用這條來罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:39:55.657182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:40:09.152273+08:00","text":"我要講的是，玷辱國家榮譽跟損害國家利益當然是很嚴重的事情，這個罰則\n擺著我覺得是應該要有，但問題是，我們剛剛提到的這三個案例，就像剛剛提到，以丟包來講\n，其實是有消保法可以來處理的；如果你是幫他做地下匯兌，應該有相關金融的法規可以來處\n理；當時疫情期間，造成防疫破口的也有特別條例可以來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:40:09.152273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:40:22.647364+08:00","text":"但這幾件事情到底跟玷辱國家\n協 29\n榮譽、損害國家利益的關連性是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:40:22.647364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:40:36.142455+08:00","text":"我當初提出這個討論，是希望觀光署能夠明確地去說明\n到底哪些樣態是可以用這個東西來罰，而不是我今天想用這個罰你，我就用這個罰你；改天我\n心情好，想用消保法處理你，就用消保法處理你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:40:36.142455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:40:49.637545+08:00","text":"就是我覺得行政機關雖然有法律背書，但是\n你在處理上面、你在適用的樣態上面不能隨心所欲地去使用啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:40:49.637545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:41:03.132636+08:00","text":"所以我覺得今天要提出來的是\n，當然你說什麼法院判決確定者，當時司法院的意見，那天他們來質詢的時候，司法院的意見\n是跟我們講，因為現在的法律裡面沒有辦法明確地規範什麼叫做玷辱國家榮譽跟損害國家利益\n，如果連司法院都沒辦法明確地定義這件事情，我希望觀光署應該要更明確地跟我們講，如果\n連司法院都沒辦法講清楚這個要怎麼定義的話，我想請問一下，在面對這些民宿或觀光業者，\n我們要用什麼樣的定義來定義這件事情？","quality":0.005},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:41:03.132636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:41:16.627727+08:00","text":"這個是我覺得要提出來提醒的，我也希望觀光署應該\n要明確地去規範，講清楚哪些行為適用這個事情，會不會以後丟包全部都用這個方式，還是有\n的丟包是用消保法，有的丟包是用別的法律，有的丟包是用這個法律？","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2024-12-10T16:41:16.627727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:41:30.122818+08:00","text":"這是我覺得最奇怪的部\n分，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:41:30.122818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:41:43.617909+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:41:43.617909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:41:57.113000+08:00","text":"接下來請王鴻薇委員發言，游顥委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:41:57.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:41:57.374000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:41:58.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:42:00.156000+08:00","text":"接下來我們的會議進行可不可以請提案委員或委員會先做說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:42:00.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:42:01.677000+08:00","text":"我剛才為\n什麼特別講，就是其實這個條文大家都沒有意見，各黨團對於現在的條文沒有意見，因為黃健\n豪委員是我們的委員長，剛才他講得非常清楚，只是希望把玷辱國家榮譽跟損害國家利益的定\n義及樣態能在說明欄做一個說明。","quality":0.379},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-12-10T16:42:01.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:42:16.574909+08:00","text":"至於剛剛比如說大家提到許宇甄委員的提案什麼之類的，其\n實我們並沒有堅持，所以我覺得如果我們可以先聚焦，看大家希望的是怎麼樣，就不會很天馬\n行空或者是有一些誤解，跟大家做一個說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:42:16.574909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:42:31.472818+08:00","text":"游顥委員請發言，吳思瑤委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"游委員顥","start":"2024-12-10T16:42:31.472818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:42:46.370727+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"游委員顥","start":"2024-12-10T16:42:46.370727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:43:01.268636+08:00","text":"一樣地，在這個條文沒有變動的情況之下，最主要是旅館業、旅行業，包括\n觀光民宿業者，其實有一些定義跟樣態的部分，他們如果能夠在說明欄做一些說明以及分類的\n話，將來參考國內外案例，其實大家都會有所依循。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"游委員顥","start":"2024-12-10T16:43:01.268636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:43:16.166545+08:00","text":"這個正常來講，應該藍綠之間都沒有意見\n，我建議在說明欄增列相關的定義及樣態就可以了。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:43:16.166545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:43:31.064455+08:00","text":"謝謝游顥委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:43:31.064455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:43:45.962364+08:00","text":"吳思瑤委員請發言，沈伯洋委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:43:45.962364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:44:00.860273+08:00","text":"所以現在聚焦，如果國民黨委員即便在委員會的時候有提出可能用語要斟酌一下，包\n括健豪委員，其實我自己去看關係文書，因為我不是交通委員會的委員，所以我特別去把這一\n次審查的關係文書從頭看到尾，其實在那個會議當中，是陳雪生委員比較具體主張要把它刪除\n，然後不好意思，國成大哥也在同一次會是有附和雪生委員的意見，所以我才要更確定今天在\n這裡協商，因為國民黨委員陳雪生委員是很資深、我很尊重的交通專業的委員，當然包括民眾\n黨代表林國成委員在委員會有附和要刪除，所以我覺得我們一定要確認這個部分。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:44:00.860273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:44:15.758182+08:00","text":"第二個，我也同意如果能夠把它的樣態在說明欄更清楚地定義，譬如說現在很敏感，我就打\n開天窗說亮話，假設有哪個民宿在他那裡掛了五星旗，是不是可以用？","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:44:15.758182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:44:30.656091+08:00","text":"你們要不要先回答？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:44:30.656091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:44:45.554000+08:00","text":"對\n協 30\n不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:44:45.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:44:51.138000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得當然要把樣態明確，大家都保護受規範者，我們裁罰也會很清楚、很精準，\n所以樣態部分，您等一下再說明。","quality":0.596},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:44:52.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:45:09.271000+08:00","text":"第三個講到罰則，我非常同意剛剛沈伯洋委員說的，這個是行政的裁罰，不需要經法院認證\n、經法院裁罰、判決確定，如果大家都有共識，許宇甄委員的內容其實是拿掉的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:45:09.271000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:45:27.797000+08:00","text":"第四個是罰則的部分，不論我個人主張，還是民進黨團主張，我們建議是不是就依王美惠委\n員的提案版本？","quality":0.279},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:45:27.797000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:45:46.323000+08:00","text":"針對裁罰部分，如果玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益、妨害善良風俗或詐騙旅客\n行為，處新臺幣 3 萬以上 30 萬元以下罰鍰；然後情節重大者，處新臺幣 30 萬元以上 150 萬元\n以下罰鍰，這是第一項。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:45:46.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:45:57.694000+08:00","text":"第二項，經受停止營業一部或全部之處分，仍然繼續營業者，這種叫\n你停、你不停還在違法營業的，要處多少裁罰呢？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:45:58.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:01.617000+08:00","text":"新臺幣 50 萬元以上 200 萬元以下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:01.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:10.349000+08:00","text":"我代表民\n進黨團，第一項跟第二項的幾個裁罰基準就教於大家，我們共同來決定，但是你們針對樣態的\n部分在說明欄裡面要怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:10.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:19.081000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講的掛五星旗是不是就是嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:19.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:27.813000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:27.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:36.545000+08:00","text":"不可以在臺灣的\n領域經營，即便是招陸客或什麼，我不知道，但掛了傷害國家、國人情感，這個東西要樣態說\n明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:36.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:45.277000+08:00","text":"第一個、我附和剛剛院長提醒的，司法院的代表要具體就我所說的樣態內容哪些要裁罰，\n你可以說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:45.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:46:54.009000+08:00","text":"第二個、我剛剛說的，經法院判刑確定的是不是同意拿掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:46:54.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:02.741000+08:00","text":"第三個、我所說\n的第一項跟第二項的裁罰基準，是不是同意民進黨團的主張？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:02.741000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:11.473000+08:00","text":"三個部分先請司法院回應之後，\n再請交通部陳部長綜合回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:11.473000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:20.205000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員發言之前，我們先請司法院表達一下意見，因為這裡非常關鍵。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:20.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:28.937000+08:00","text":"麻煩一下，請司\n法院楊副廳長表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:28.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:37.669000+08:00","text":"楊副廳長坤樵：主席，還有各位委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:37.669000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:46.401000+08:00","text":"就許宇甄委員所提的版本第五十三條第一項，司法院想要\n提出的意見也是關於經法院判決確定的這個要件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:46.401000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:55.133000+08:00","text":"這個要件是現行條文所沒有的，我們當初認\n為這個草案內容適用上可能會產生一些疑義，就是我們沒辦法想像，到底是什麼樣的法院判決\n會直接認定有玷辱國家榮譽，還有損害國家利益這樣的事實，我們覺得好像沒有這種判決類型\n，所以適用上會有疑義。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:55.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:47:58.956000+08:00","text":"因為從他的這個修法說明看起來好像是針對刑事判決，譬如民事判決\n或行政法院的判決，還有有些可能是經過檢察官緩起訴處分的，這種類型算不算？","quality":0.339},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:47:59.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:03.059000+08:00","text":"我們都會有\n一些疑問，所以就這個部分提出我們的看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:03.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:19.010000+08:00","text":"至於什麼樣的情形屬於玷辱國家榮譽和損害國家利益，基本上，我們覺得這是不確定的法律\n概念，要看個案的情形去認定，現在我沒有辦法就它提出類型化的說明，可能要請主管機關說\n明。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:19.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:22.153000+08:00","text":"對於罰鍰金額的部分，尊重大院的決定。謝謝。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:22.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:27.654750+08:00","text":"你沒有回答我，我剛剛建議的金額……對不起！","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:27.654750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:33.156500+08:00","text":"我再請教合宜不合宜，你覺得可不可\n以支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:33.156500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:38.658250+08:00","text":"我剛剛建議的那幾個，3 萬、30萬，然後 30 萬、150 萬，然後 50 萬、200 萬，是不是\n合宜的？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:38.658250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:44.160000+08:00","text":"交通部陳部長，您在沈委員發言完畢之後發言，我就要處理了，好嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:44.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:47.703000+08:00","text":"楊副廳長坤樵：我剛剛說的罰鍰基準，是不是符合你們一般的標準呢？","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:47.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:51.728000+08:00","text":"司法院表……副廳長，再麻煩您一下。協 31","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:51.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:53.330000+08:00","text":"我剛剛建議的部分是不是可以接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:54.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:48:56.753000+08:00","text":"楊副廳長坤樵：主席，關於罰鍰額度，我們尊重大院的決定，謝謝。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:48:56.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:05.099167+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員，請發言，請簡短，我們快達成共識了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:05.099167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:13.445333+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:13.445333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:21.791500+08:00","text":"我也是針對這一點，因為剛剛黃健豪委員有提到，我可以說明一下。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:21.791500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:30.137667+08:00","text":"因\n為說明欄之後要附，所以我可以稍微講一下。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:30.137667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:38.483833+08:00","text":"這跟臺灣本來有個公然侮辱罪一樣，被說侮辱別\n人的名譽，這也是很不確定的概念，到底什麼叫做侮辱？","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:38.483833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:46.830000+08:00","text":"這邊有一模一樣的問題，但這個問題\n在法律解釋上大概是這個樣子，國家的榮譽、國家的國格就跟人格一樣，所以基本上就是幾個\n侵害，包括主權的侵害、治權的侵害、國交，國交就是指外交的侵害，還有國家作用的侵害，\n這四個侵害都比較能夠連結到所謂的玷污國家榮譽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:46.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:49:55.716000+08:00","text":"這是在法律解釋上本來就已經有的東西，\n所以我不會覺得它是一個完全不確定的概念，但是它的確還是需要靠案例的累積，所以這是第\n一點。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:49:55.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:50:01.860000+08:00","text":"第二點，我覺得這一點大家應該達成共識，就是那個法院判決確定，不太應該放在這一\n邊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-12-10T16:50:02.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:50:13.828000+08:00","text":"我講一個簡單的案例，因為我們現在大家都很關心詐騙，如果就算是詐騙，雖然我們一切\n有打詐專法、也有詐欺，但是因為如果你的詐騙一定要符合到現在刑法上的詐騙，要既遂、未\n遂的話，那個不一定可以，但是它可能在前階段的時候，我們的主管機關就能夠做裁罰，我覺\n得這一個也是主管機關非常重要的權責，所以大概這兩點，謝謝。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:50:25.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:50:25.183000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋的發言。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:50:25.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:50:27.544000+08:00","text":"麻煩請陳部長，請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:50:28.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:50:50.452000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，針對大家剛剛的意見，有關金額的部分，我想大家相對是比較有共識，交\n通部這邊也都接受這樣子金額的部分，我們也認為是合理的，至於這個裁罰的部分，有關於玷\n污國家榮譽跟損害國家利益，這個部分雖然是涉及比較不確定的法律概念，但是我們認為這個\n對於保護民眾的權益來講極關重要，所以我們希望能夠維持。","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:50:50.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:02.455000+08:00","text":"至於說明的部分，我們是不是之\n後把它列出來，有比較具體的說明，讓大家能夠清楚一點？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:02.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:14.458000+08:00","text":"不過我還是要強調，它是比較沒有\n這麼具體的法律概念，所以我們也大概是一個大括性的說明這樣子，以上報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:14.458000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:26.461000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳部長的報告，各位黨團幹部，如果這樣的話，我們就針對第五十三條……","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:26.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:38.148000+08:00","text":"對，如果要確認條文，就是我剛剛具體的金額，如果我沒有理解錯誤，司法院同意，\n然後部裡也同意嘛，所以是不是這個金額部分請各黨派委員大家可以看一下？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:39.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:42.030000+08:00","text":"金額的調整、罰\n鍰的調整。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:42.030000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:44.032000+08:00","text":"其他文字不要動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:44.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:45.192000+08:00","text":"對，其他文字，對……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:45.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:50.195000+08:00","text":"影印一下，先發給各黨的幹部，吳思瑤所提的罰金的調整，好不好？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:50.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:51:51.616000+08:00","text":"大家再 1分鐘左右。好啊！好啊！好、好。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:51:51.616000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:03.696000+08:00","text":"對，這個是我的意見沒錯，給各黨看一下。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:03.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:06.078000+08:00","text":"黨團幹部看到了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:06.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:14.164000+08:00","text":"這條就是在第二項修正那個版本，就是罰緩 200 萬元改為 50 萬元以上\n，200萬元以下。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:14.164000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:24.599111+08:00","text":"院長，我們先來提出我們的看法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:24.599111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:35.034222+08:00","text":"對於吳思瑤委員這個修法的提案，其實這在委員會都討論過，就是罰鍰的部分基本上\n協 32\n大家沒有意見，但是它有一個前提，就是你要在立法說明把整個樣態說明的很清楚，剛才交通\n部長也講說他會儘量提出相關的說明，所以在說明還沒看到以前，我們當然保留，所以我們先\n保留，等交通部把詳細的樣態列舉之後，我們再來決定，我們再來讓這個條文通過，你先通過\n的話，樣態沒有說明，這不是很矛盾嗎？","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:35.034222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:45.469333+08:00","text":"那可不可以再釐清一下，我同意啊，因為這也是我的意見，你說明欄裡頭就還沒明確\n，本來就……但是條文的本文，我還是想就教於國民黨委員的意見，這樣子的金額，因為一關\n一關解，因為這個也是待會會有共識，所以我剛剛講的三個 level的情節重大的罰鍰層次……","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:45.469333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:54:55.904444+08:00","text":"基本上我們都尊重當時交委會的決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:54:55.904444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:55:06.339556+08:00","text":"如果這樣的話，至少我們往前進一步，就是這個條文內容是有 OK……","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T16:55:06.339556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:55:16.774667+08:00","text":"剛講過了，我們同意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T16:55:16.774667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:55:27.209778+08:00","text":"同意罰鍰……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:55:27.209778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:55:37.644889+08:00","text":"我覺得這個要確認，但是保留的部分是說明欄，所以下次就不要再講條文內容，直接\n講說明欄，好不好？","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:55:37.644889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:55:48.080000+08:00","text":"這樣就有往前進一步了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:55:48.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:01.529000+08:00","text":"跟大家報告，因為我們現在三個黨，加上交通部、司法院，還有觀光署，大家共同的意見，\n基本上如果沒有特別意見，第五十三條就尊重王美惠委員等 16 人提案，這是基本上、大致上的\n。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:02.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:11.835000+08:00","text":"另外，交通部部分，剛剛陳部長也講得很清楚，我們在立法說明裡面，把有玷污國家榮譽、\n有損害國家利益者說得更清楚，這樣子就沒有意見了嘛！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:11.835000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:17.183833+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長永暉","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:17.183833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:22.532667+08:00","text":"還是有略修上限跟下限，沒錯。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:22.532667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:27.881500+08:00","text":"第五十三條如果這樣可以達成共識，如果可以我們就……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:27.881500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:33.230333+08:00","text":"沒有，剛剛林思銘委員說說明欄要保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:33.230333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:38.579167+08:00","text":"院長，我剛剛的意思是說，等交通部把說明欄的樣態寫清楚之後，我們再來達成協商\n的共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:38.579167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:43.928000+08:00","text":"好的，好的，那就拜多下一次協商之前，麻煩陳部長跟觀光署特別辛苦一下，把列舉的相關\n立法說明更清楚告訴大家，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:43.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:56:51.272000+08:00","text":"好，我現在正式宣告：現在時間已接近 5 點鐘，本案我們就\n繼續溝通協商。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:56:51.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:08.362000+08:00","text":"另外，明天下午 3 點，我們要依照協商結論進行附屬單位預算保留等的第二輪\n協商，以利本週五院會進行處理，其他今天所列的相關提案，我們再依序來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:57:08.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:08.582000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨\n團幹部有意見嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:57:09.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:11.939143+08:00","text":"（無）沒有意見，今天就散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:57:12.239143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:15.382000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳部長、各位列席官員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-10T16:57:15.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:18.824857+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，大家辛苦了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:57:19.124857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:20.267714+08:00","text":"謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-10T16:57:20.567714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-10T16:57:21.710571+08:00","text":"散會（16時 57分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}