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國退民進的事情就原來講這個國營企業民營化是世界的潮流全球化的潮流是這樣子的民營化怎麼樣把國家的企業特別是貫穿國家"},{"start":193.021,"end":205.676,"text":"中國大陸也好啦 蘇聯也好啦等等共產國家都是國營失業國營失業變成民營化造就一波的整個國家的一個經濟的火力出來了那現在呢 現在又倒回去了"},{"start":206.812,"end":233.485,"text":"所以你剛講一句很有意思你說這個美國是跟中國大陸跑一樣中國也是目前有一點這個味道變成是民退國進就國家的原來補貼的變成一個要投資的這個我就在請教你了台積電可不可以跟他說NO如果這樣66億美金的補貼我不要了我不要了你這樣子這樣"},{"start":235.936,"end":258.129,"text":"硬來的我不要了可以不可以這個我想我要去請教台積電我不能夠帶台積電台積電政府有股份我們國發基金股份有6%之多對 但是我們只有一席董事我們只有一席董事但是你知道台積電現在有幾席董事"},{"start":259.215,"end":275.228,"text":"有幾席的董事 台積電現在就是一般的這個名股大概是五席嘛對 有幾席的董事 你知道嗎 其他大概是獨立董事他獨立董事有人講六席 有人講七席啊除了林全之外 其他都是外籍人士"},{"start":276.286,"end":293.3,"text":"其他都是美國人跟英國人就基本上是美國人所以我會擔心的一點是那這樣一來的話美國川普可能不是只有說我持股而已喔我要一起懂事請問台積電有沒有人力所弄"},{"start":294.495,"end":315.915,"text":"我同意委員的這個推論他有到那個股份一定可以選擇一個董事那他選擇董事就會去干預這個公司的所有的運作那他補助的時候是沒有辦法干預對那只有他進入董事會才會去干預這個我想委員的指教是非常正確的"},{"start":317.509,"end":346.411,"text":"但是在台灣台積電這個案例我想委員所擔心我們也很擔心不過他如果要這樣的話要經過我們投審會美國要經過投審會請問台積電去美國投資1000億有沒有經過投審會現在經過沒有 到現在為止他現在還沒有錢還沒有嘛 到現在還沒有嘛所以等於說美國好 那你講到一個重點喔說美國川普他如果要硬來"},{"start":349.258,"end":350.785,"text":"印象 要經過我們同意當然是脫審會啊"},{"start":353.69,"end":379.73,"text":"要經過我們同意嘛 對不對要經過我們同意嘛所以 跟我們好好談一談啦這老實講 這也是一個好的一個機會啦齁但是 我還是要講原來晶片法案不是這樣子啦美國晶片法案沒有這一條啊沒有這個option啦說我可以印來的 突然咧怎麼權力這麼大 一下子說要印來印上 幹嘛用這樣"},{"start":381.696,"end":391.981,"text":"就是你以前企業界老闆是政府給你補貼補貼二十億新台幣然後突然說我要轉成持股你敢同意 請問你如果郭董事長你敢同意"},{"start":393.558,"end":417.279,"text":"同意他 我們當然同意是要看他進入以後對我們有沒有什麼當然有干預 怎麼沒有呢如果沒有加分效果的話 我們當然不會同意什麼叫沒有加分 現在好啦 因為我時間時間差不多到了 不用講扯太久 我是跟你講如此一來 他有機會 因為他66億美金不算少數他的資本額多少台積電資本額"},{"start":421.341,"end":438.653,"text":"資本額大概2500億左右66億美金就是有一不少錢那他一來的話可能會相當大的一個比重就跟英特爾一樣取得英特爾的所以他來的話就變成是"},{"start":439.534,"end":466.861,"text":"所以倒貼了台積電變美積電啊這沒什麼錯啊 就變這個樣子啦那你搖頭 你要不要解釋一下報告委員 我想66億我們要看啊它在市場裡面可以買到我們多少的股權所以這個不是說66億跟我的資產來衡量嘛所以這個我想都可以談如果它硬要加入我們的股份嘛那當然還是可以談"},{"start":469.256,"end":479.329,"text":"我給你一個數字了外資佔有台積電73%了市值大概一兆美金左右了所以66億除以它大概"},{"start":487.415,"end":498.159,"text":"6.6%是很大的雪隆以台積電這麼股權這麼分散的一個公司來講是相當高的比例了相當高的比例所以他取得一些東西不困難"},{"start":499.389,"end":518.604,"text":"馬上進來了所以變成是以後變國運事業了以後在川普看上的半導體的重要的chip晶片的廠就是變成美國的國運事業了變這個樣子不過我想報告委員我想我們要看他這個投資是策略投資還是財務投資啊"},{"start":521.62,"end":536.293,"text":"當然是策略投資啊那個商務部長講清楚了他的目標他講得很好聽他說讓美國人納稅人的錢他能夠得到一些報酬這個話這個四平八穩可是問題是你事先沒有這樣講"},{"start":537.734,"end":561.253,"text":"事先沒有這樣講啦事先就是他的金邊法案就是給錢就給錢補助你就補助你但是美國是一個法治的國家啦那我想我們跟他第二的條件就像委員所指教的就是沒有這個條件當然我們可以拒絕可以拒絕啦好 那來投審會啊他如果真的要變成這個台積電的股東要經過我們的投審會就這個意思嘛好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":563.854,"end":568.686,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時42分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。今天外面討論比較多的是，美國政府商業部長盧特尼克特別提到，有考慮用晶片法案裡面補貼的金額換股權，他們原來取得英特爾10%股權，10%非常多，變成最大的股東，我看了一些相關資料，這個消息出來之後，英特爾的股價是下跌的。今天一樣有消息出來說，川普政府對台積電補助66億美金，準備要變成股東，結果造成股市也是下跌的，你要不要……雖然我知道你已經講了啦！不過你說這是假設性什麼之類的，你要不要從經濟部長的角度，你也是業界出身的，你怎麼看政府給企業的補助變成持股，這對企業會造成什麼影響？"],["郭部長智輝：這個有點像中國過去企業民進國退的時段到最近國進民退，大概都有這樣的痕跡在啦！我們看政府對企業的補助，美國剛開始是反對中國這樣的模式嘛，但是他覺得中國這個模式可能不會讓企業倒，所以他現在就是，我既然要補助你，我要一點股份，我要股份就可以扮演股東的角色。所以我想這個business 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