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是不是請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":29.162,"end":34.037,"text":"今天是中小企業怎麼去協助度過多重的危機"},{"start":35.407,"end":64.734,"text":"包括當然是天災也包括整體國際大環境的變化跟挑戰包括大概我認為有三大挑戰中小企業大部分都是傳統產業比較多傳統產業集中也都中南部比較多所以又受到風災然後又遇到國際大環境經濟形勢的變化包括這個美國關稅的問題現在還是沒有最終的這個答案那"},{"start":65.726,"end":86.221,"text":"牽涉到包括這個鋼鋁我們這個232條款裡面鋼鋁是50%對不對有用鋼鋁塑造影響的產業包括這個工具機包括螺絲扣件等等對不對所以美國的關稅是一個整體經營環境的挑戰之一之二就是我們匯率問題我們升值的幅度高於日韓中"},{"start":89.246,"end":109.091,"text":"對匯率是支柱必較 匯率的敏感度 傳統產業的敏感度相對的避險也比較不足 避險能力也比較不足也沒有專業的人力去做避險的工作所以他們對匯率的敏感度很強第三個 中國的惡性的競爭"},{"start":111.69,"end":139.279,"text":"中國不管是從過去的面板到石化到自行車等等都是用同樣模式用國家資本介入去取得你的這個市占率甚至牽連到成熟製程還好我們新興製程還保持一定的優勢成熟製程他們再過幾年他們市占率就是不到50%的這種情況包括傳統產業包括這個高科技產業成熟製程他都用同樣的模式"},{"start":140.481,"end":164.23,"text":"去取得它的供应链取得这个影响力整个产业链的影响力所以我们传统产业面临到这三种国际环境的变化中国的工市 汇率 然后关税然后加上热金天灾中小企业是不是我认为这二十几年来最艰苦的阶段部长你同意吗"},{"start":165.977,"end":191.972,"text":"確實如委員指教的部分確實現在的中小企業需要經濟部大力的協作跟輔助這不是一般就是小感冒或者是不舒服頭痛而已我覺得是一個非常重大的疾病或者是一個重大的挑戰如果沒有處理好會危及到產業的生存"},{"start":193.789,"end":221.687,"text":"所以我們必須要嚴肅的面對這個挑戰一項一項來拆解那當然天災部分我們有這個資料重建條例來處理但是匯率這個匯率我們可以匯率跟關稅可超支在我嗎報告委員我個人認為就我過去的經驗來看匯率是可以在某一個部分某一個狀況之下可超支在幾"},{"start":223.019,"end":242.84,"text":"就是我们用政策可以去做调控规律我们是可以处理关税是非可控的关税是非可控的超市在他但是现在我们坦白讲我们已经知道暂定的关税是20加N所以就这样的一个情况之下我们先面对这个最坏的状况我们在谈只有更好不会更差"},{"start":243.976,"end":269.207,"text":"所以就20加恩的时候现在经济部就就20加恩这样的情况之下我们如何协助这一些中小企业他们能够面对这样的一个困境所以我们第一个先解决汇率的问题所以汇率你觉得到哪一种汇率水准才是符合业界的期待我们现在的汇率我们大概中小企业他们比较担心的是日本跟韩国"},{"start":270.296,"end":298.157,"text":"所以我們的匯率不是只有自己盯美國而是要去考慮到整個動態環境您也是央行理事對不對我是央行理事對啊你們在這個相關的匯率討論的時候也可以跟這個楊總裁建議我有我會跟那個中央銀行的總裁我們會來討論怎麼樣子讓到未來其實我跟委員報告我們所了解的這是關稅的部分"},{"start":299.664,"end":326.925,"text":"應該會在未來三個月裡面談完談完就是有一個最終的一個關稅稅率最終的對 但是呢這個會影響的波廊是比較好的結果大概六個月所以我們現在也在討論什麼樣子讓台灣的匯率從現在一直到農曆年前可以是穩定的不會vibration太大的這樣子的話我們台灣的企業韌性是非常的強目前的匯率可以嗎"},{"start":327.967,"end":339.895,"text":"你覺得維持在目前的匯率水準現在30.23所以現在的匯率應該是業者來講說是不是到31到32一般來講就過去6年過去6年的平均值是31"},{"start":348.467,"end":373.09,"text":"所以應該如果回到過去六年平均的這個水平會比較好那又回到您所說的這是可操之在我的是可操之在央行的相關的匯率政策所以你做央行我們不能操縱匯率你可以做紅官調控不是操縱紅官調控操縱跟紅官調控是不一樣謝謝委員的指教這個部分"},{"start":374.904,"end":397.513,"text":"因為您說是31是比較合理我們來努力我們往最棒的狀況去調整這個市場裡面我們比較怕的是禿鷹跟預期心理因為我們在上半年我們其實粗糙蠻多的所以這個會有人預期說那你這樣的這個要換台幣就會升值那大家如果說讓那個"},{"start":400.558,"end":428.888,"text":"大家都短暫的 怕它崩掉所以我剛綜合一下關稅在六個月之內三個月之內會有一個最終的稅率出來然後我們希望在未來六個月我們的匯率維持一定的水準維持有競爭力的水準這個關一定可以過我們目標是到31就是過去六年的平均稅率這是我們最棒的狀況好 那另外一個中國的這個"},{"start":432.194,"end":450.1,"text":"他們的這個競爭中國用所有的方式用在石化用這個面板等等對這個相關螺絲擴建也是如此過去螺絲擴建台灣不用說什麼螺絲擴建過去是全球第三名"},{"start":453.119,"end":467.29,"text":"那現在東南亞也追上來了那中國又用那種搶佔你低價 國家資本介入搶佔你市佔率的方式 讓你的獲利減少 讓你的成本增加加上我們國際環境的變化所以我們對傳統產業"},{"start":470.367,"end":479.639,"text":"有沒有在政策上強烈的支持讓他們成本能夠降低讓他們在國際市場上有更多的市場機會或者維持相當的競爭力"},{"start":482.338,"end":499.684,"text":"我觉得对金属扣件要有一个专章要有一个专章然后金属扣件因为每个产业面对的问题不尽相同所以专章就是既然对金属扣件我们有很多具体的很具体的做法让这些产业能够度过这三重的挑战跟危机"},{"start":500.732,"end":525.339,"text":"報告委員我們都有方法包括在國內我們如果幫助國內的廠商降低它的成本利用AI的這個操作第二個透過EXCO能夠太舊換新它的設備然後節能減碳第三個我幫它統籌材料幫它能夠降低成本這個已經上路了嗎還是在規劃上路上路上路"},{"start":526.119,"end":553.949,"text":"然後在美國在美國的市場我們在搜尋美國強的這個通路然後協助國內的廠商可以進入那個通路我覺得是這樣子就是面對中國的這個競爭惡性競爭不管是先進製程不管是成熟製程或是傳統產業我們能不能比如說成熟製程部分禁止國內的半導體跟中國投片"},{"start":556.383,"end":582.447,"text":"你要跟國內投片不要跟中國 不用中芯國際那些禁止或者你要限制它投片的比例同樣的我們的這個公共工程是不是可以禁止使用這個中國製的相關的擴建產品零件公共工程禁止使用中國的商品這個我們做得到擴大到所有產業呢一樣"},{"start":583.737,"end":599.714,"text":"所以我們就是禁止中國人我們要用本國的本國的不能進來啦現在的規定就是不能進來啦中國的中國的喔那西山地呢西山地抓到太刀抓到太刀抓到喔第一遍60萬"},{"start":603.496,"end":618.566,"text":"第二邊三百萬 第三邊就吊銷執照就說那些要流離台灣啦我們都公共工程 或是大型企業那些工廠都用台灣借 台灣奔透的金屬擴建嘛一定要你要防範這些稀產地 為中國進來"},{"start":622.428,"end":644.641,"text":"这个我们为什么会在这一次的这个特别是在海防跟国防上面编列1500亿就是禁止他能够走私起产地那这样我就稍微稍微比较放心另外就是成熟市城能不能限制他去跟这个中国以中国国家资本为主的这些扶植起来的这个半导体的成熟市城去投片"},{"start":644.861,"end":669.495,"text":"我們現在還是這樣 我跟委員報告在改變那個consumer的產品是沒有意義的啦你必須要去做teleman不過它市貸率已經超過50%了我們那個市貸率小的東西就不好賣賺錢嘛我們要去做會賺錢的生意啦什麼叫會賺錢的生意賺錢就是先進製程啦 成熟製程就拚不贏他現在是怎樣 我舉個數字給你聽成熟製程我們照樣可以teleman"},{"start":671.923,"end":689.609,"text":"美国三分之二的科技厂商有跟中国投片三分之二但是整个投片的比率占12%而已他在美国他在中国投片然后看的是中国的市场"},{"start":690.95,"end":701.46,"text":"他看的是中國的市場不會影響到外部的市場我們看的是中國以外的市場因為中國的市場 不賺錢嘛所以政府要補助他"},{"start":703.513,"end":727.906,"text":"境外博主委他内卷的很厉害其实中国的而且现在中国这两年去年跟今年增加的四十几个Fab其实都没有竞争力的他内部竞争很厉害是他们中国国内的事情但是他内部竞争也会影响到这个外部的环境你放心我是很担心未来我们这个成熟市场就像现在的石化过去的这个面板"},{"start":728.746,"end":744.708,"text":"受到中国的红色供应链的侵袭因为半导体的变半导体的更新技术的更新两年就是一个世代那对这成熟制程也是一样它那里面"},{"start":745.549,"end":765.514,"text":"能夠賺錢的部分其實很少所以您認為說我們的半導體成熟製程在未來一段時間還是能維持一定的優勢我們當然有競爭優勢因為特別是在特別是20奈米以下的14 12 17這四個製程裡面中國沒有辦法做到有辦法做到 但是良率非常低"},{"start":766.374,"end":795.024,"text":"但是台湾这个地方做很好的是台积电但台积电现在所有的人都shift到5 3 2 1.8所以他可以让出这个我刚才讲的10 24 17这四个阶段的这个制程比如说给他的兄弟公司世界先进或者其他的华邦汪洪这个我们就可以那如果28奈米的呢28奈米的呢28奈米的可以放弃啦没弹的啊"},{"start":798.095,"end":821.033,"text":"但是國內也有很多生產啊沒有啦我們要做那個會斷的我們不能做那個就不會斷的生意所以這個說來話長但是因為實業限制我一向都很損失的這個我可以跟委員私底下報告因為這方面是這方面真的是我的專業啦好 改天再跟你請教沒有沒有 不敢謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":844,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時2分）謝謝主席，是不是請經濟部郭部長？"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好，部長辛苦了。今天是針對中小企業怎麼樣去協助以渡過多重危機，當然包括天災，也包括整體國際大環境的變化跟挑戰，大概我認為有三大挑戰，中小企業大部分都是傳統產業比較多，集中在中南部的也比較多。受到風災，又遇到國際大環境經濟情勢的變化，包括美國關稅的問題現在還是沒有最終的答案。牽涉到包括鋼鋁，這個232條款裡面，鋼鋁是50%，對不對？有關鋼鋁受到影響的產業，包括工具機、螺絲扣件等等。所以美國的關稅是整體經營環境的挑戰之一，之二就是匯率的問題，我們升值的幅度高於日韓中，而對匯率錙銖必較，是傳統產業敏感度非常……相對地避險能力比較不足，也沒有專業人力去做避險的工作，所以他們對於匯率的敏感度很強。","第三個，中國的惡性競爭，中國不管是從過去的面板、石化到自行車等等都是用同樣的模式，用國家資本介入去取得市占率，甚至侵入到成熟製程，還好我們的先進製程還保持一定的優勢，成熟製程他們再過幾年的市占率就到50%了，這種情況包括傳統產業、高科技產業的成熟製程，他都用同樣的模式去取得他的供應鏈、取得整個產業鏈的影響力。","所以我們傳統產業面臨到這三種國際環境的變化，中國的攻勢，匯率、關稅，加上最近的天災，中小企業是不是……我認為這二十幾年來最艱苦的階段，部長同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：如委員指教的部分，確實現在的中小企業需要經濟部大力地協作跟輔助。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是一般的小感冒或者不舒服、頭痛而已，我覺得是非常重大的一個疾病，或者是一個重大的挑戰，如果沒有處理好會危及到產業的生存，所以我們必須要嚴肅面對這個挑戰，一項一項拆解。當然天災的部分我們有災害重建條例來處理，但是匯率以及關稅可操之在我嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我個人認為，就我過去的經驗來看，匯率是可以在某一個部分、某一個狀況之下……"],["邱委員志偉：操之在己，就是我們用政策可以去做調控。"],["郭部長智輝：匯率我們是可以處理。"],["邱委員志偉：關稅是非可控的。"],["郭部長智輝：關稅是非可控的。"],["邱委員志偉：操之在他。"],["郭部長智輝：但是現在，坦白講，我們已經知道暫定的關稅是20%+N，所以就這樣的一個情況之下，我們先面對這個最壞的狀況嘛！我們再談只有更好，不會更差。現在經濟部就20%+N的情況之下，我們如何協助這些中小企業能夠面對這樣的一個困境嘛！所以我們第一個先解決匯率的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以匯率，你覺得到哪一種匯率水準才是符合業界的期待？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在的匯率，大概中小企業比較擔心的是日本跟韓國，所以我們的匯率不是只有自己盯美國，而是要考慮到整個動態環境。"],["邱委員志偉：你也是央行理事，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我是央行理事。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你們在相關的匯率討論時……"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：也可以跟楊總裁建議。"],["郭部長智輝：我有，我會跟中央銀行總裁，我們會來討論，怎麼樣讓……未來，我跟委員報告，我們所了解的，關稅部分應該會在未來3個月裡面談完。"],["邱委員志偉：談完就是有一個最終的關稅稅率。"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是這個會影響的波……"],["邱委員志偉：是比較好的結果……"],["郭部長智輝：大概6個月，所以我們現在也在討論，怎麼樣讓臺灣的匯率，從現在一直到農曆年前可以是穩定的，不會vibration太大，這樣子的話，我們臺灣的企業韌性是非常地強……"],["邱委員志偉：目前的匯率可以嗎？你覺得維持在目前的匯率水準……"],["郭部長智輝：現在30.23嘛！所以現在的匯率應該是，就業者來講，他們還勉強可以接受。"],["邱委員志偉：是不是到31、32？"],["郭部長智輝：一般來講，就是去6年的平均值是31。"],["邱委員志偉：如果回到過去6年平均的水平……"],["郭部長智輝：那就太棒了。"],["邱委員志偉：會比較好。那又回到您所說的，這個是可操之在我的，是可操之在央行相關的匯率政策，所以你作為央行理事，你……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能操縱匯率，報告委員……"],["邱委員志偉：不是操縱匯率，你可以做宏觀調控，不是操縱，宏觀調控，操縱跟宏觀調控是不一樣的。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，這個部分我們來……"],["邱委員志偉：因為您說31是比較合理、最棒的狀況嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們來努力、我們來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：我們往最棒的狀況去調整。"],["郭部長智輝：這個市場裡面，我們比較怕的是禿鷹跟預期心理。因為在上半年我們其實出超滿多的，所以會有人預期說那你這樣要換，臺幣就會升值。大家如果讓那個……大家都囤在那邊……怕會崩掉。"],["邱委員志偉：是啦……"],["郭部長智輝：所以要讓一些流出去……"],["邱委員志偉：我綜合一下，關稅在3個月之內會有一個最終的稅率出來，然後希望在未來6個月，我們的匯率維持一定水準。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們這個關一定可以過。"],["邱委員志偉：維持有競爭力的水準。"],["郭部長智輝：這個關一定可以過。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們目標是不是到31，就是過去6年的平均稅率，這是我們最棒的狀況嘛！好，那另外一個是中國的競爭，中國將所有的方式，用在石化、面板等等，對螺絲扣件也是如此，過去臺灣螺絲扣件是全球第三名，中國、德國，再來就是臺灣，現在東南亞也追上來了，中國又用低價搶占，用國家資本介入，搶占市占率的方式，讓你的獲利減少、成本增加，加上國際環境的變化，所以我是想說，我們對傳統產業有沒有政策上的強力支持，讓他們的成本能夠降低，讓他們在國際市場上有更多的機會，或者維持相當的競爭力？我覺得對金屬扣件要有一個專章。"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：因為每個產業面對的問題不盡相同，所以專章就是針對金屬扣件，我們有很多具體、detail的作法，讓這些產業能夠度過這三重的挑戰跟危機。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都有方法，包括在國內，我們如何幫助國內的廠商降低他們的成本，利用AI的操作。第二個，透過ESCO，能夠汰舊換新它的設備，然後節能減碳。第三個，我幫他們統籌材料，讓他們能夠降低成本。"],["邱委員志偉：這個已經上路了嗎？還是正在規劃？"],["郭部長智輝：上路了，然後美國的市場，我們在搜尋美國強的通路，協助國內廠商可以進入那個通路。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得面對中國的惡性競爭，不管是成熟製程或者傳統產業，我們能不能比如說成熟製程部分禁止國內的半導體跟中國投片？你要跟國內廠商投片，不要跟中國的，不要跟中芯國際啦，那些禁止！或者你要限制它投片的比例。同樣的，我們的公共工程是不是可以禁止使用中國製的相關扣件產品、零件？"],["郭部長智輝：公共工程禁止使用中國的商品，這個我們做得到。"],["邱委員志偉：擴大到所有產業呢？"],["郭部長智輝：一樣，我們就是禁止中國的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我們要用本國的。"],["郭部長智輝：他們不能進來啦，現在的規定就是不能進來了。"],["邱委員志偉：中國的？"],["郭部長智輝：中國的。"],["邱委員志偉：如果它洗產地呢？"],["郭部長智輝：洗產地抓到就殺頭。"],["邱委員志偉：殺頭？"],["郭部長智輝：抓到第一次罰60萬，第二次罰300萬，第三次就吊銷執照。"],["邱委員志偉：供應鏈要留在臺灣啦，不管是公共工程，還是這些大型企業的工程都用臺灣製的，臺灣本土的金屬扣件。"],["郭部長智輝：一定要。"],["邱委員志偉：你要防範這些洗產地的從中國進來。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們為什麼會在這一次，特別在海防跟國防上面編列1,500億，就是禁止它走私、洗產地。"],["邱委員志偉：了解，這樣我就比較放心了。另外，成熟製程的部分，能不能限制它去跟中國以國家資本為主扶植起來的半導體成熟製程投片？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還是這樣，我跟委員報告，你跟它拚consumer產品是沒有意義的，你必須要去做tailor-made。"],["邱委員志偉：不過它的市占率已經超過50%了欸！"],["郭部長智輝：不、不、不，那個市占率對便宜的東西沒用，不能賺錢嘛，我們要去做能賺錢的生意，什麼才是能賺錢的生意？"],["邱委員志偉：能賺錢的就是先進製程，成熟製程就拚不贏它嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：現在是這樣，我舉一個數字說給你聽。"],["郭部長智輝：成熟製程我們照樣可以tailor-made。"],["邱委員志偉：我舉一個數字說給你聽，美國三分之二的科技廠商有跟中國投片，但是整個投片的比率占12%而已，它那個量有限制。"],["郭部長智輝：它在中國投片，它看的是中國的市場，不會影響到外部的市場，我們看的是中國以外的市場，因為中國的市場不賺錢，所以他們政府要補助他們，它內捲的很厲害，而且中國這兩年，去年跟今年增加的四十幾個fab，其實都沒有競爭力。"],["邱委員志偉：他們內部競爭很厲害，這是他們中國國內的事情，但是它內部競爭也會影響到外部的環境。"],["郭部長智輝：不會，你放心啦！成熟製程……"],["邱委員志偉：我是很擔心未來我們的成熟製程就像現在的石化、過去的面板，受到中國紅色供應鏈的侵襲。"],["郭部長智輝：因為半導體技術的更新，兩年就是一個世代，對成熟製程也是一樣，它那裡面能夠賺錢的部分其實很少。"],["邱委員志偉：所以您認為我們半導體的成熟製程，在未來一段時間還是能維持一定的優勢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有競爭的優勢，特別是20奈米以下，14、12、10、7這四個製程，中國有辦法做，但是它良率非常低。臺灣這個地方做很好的是台積電，但台積電現在所有的人都shift到5、3、2、1.8，所以它可以讓出我剛才講的12、14、10、7這四個階段的製程，譬如說給它的兄弟公司──世界先進，或者其他的，華邦、旺宏，這個我們都可以……"],["邱委員志偉：如果是28奈米呢？"],["郭部長智輝：28奈米可以放棄，不會賺錢，做那個做什麼，我們要做能賺錢的。"],["邱委員志偉：但是國內也有很多生產啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！我們要做能賺錢的，我們不能做不賺錢的生意。"],["邱委員志偉：這個說來話長啦！但是因為有時間限制，我一向都很準時。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我可以跟委員私底下報告。"],["邱委員志偉：我們私底下再討論。"],["郭部長智輝：因為這方面真的是我的專業啦！"],["邱委員志偉：好，改天再跟你請教。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，沒有，不敢！謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員張嘉郡、何欣純、陳超明所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","李坤城","賴士葆","蔡易餘","邱志偉","張嘉郡","何欣純","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長就「協助中小企業災後復原辦理情況」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147302_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}