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謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐國民黨團請坐臺灣民眾黨請坐來我們現在會議進行好不好好各位黨團幹部請坐各位列席官員也請坐謝謝現在三位三個黨團的幹部都有到現場"},{"start":1927.418,"end":1946.92,"text":"好,謝謝各位黨團幹部。我們今天繼續針對113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算經濟委員會營業部共保留的分八個案。今天列席的所有的我們官員首長向各位介紹行政院陳主席長。好,歡迎您。"},{"start":1948.521,"end":1967.107,"text":"經濟部國務部長,歡迎您。台唐的吳董事長,歡迎您。中郵的方董事長,歡迎您。台電的曾董事長,歡迎您。好,謝謝。各位黨團幹部,我們現在,台唐,我們先進行台唐目前有第四案跟第五案。"},{"start":1968.186,"end":1993.268,"text":"科目相同。國民黨團料先詳委員提改檢列一百萬。臺灣民眾黨團侯國昌總召凍結百分之五十。請臺堂序號四個五兩岸,請問各位黨團幹部能不能提出一些不同的意見跟看法。侯國昌總召"},{"start":1994.878,"end":2019.485,"text":"您提的是檢列50%剛剛院長詢問的事情是可不可以提出不同的意見跟看法其實我們沒有什麼不同的意見跟看法我們的理由針對台糖的這個部分前董事長吳乃仁賤賣台糖的資產"},{"start":2021.4,"end":2049.683,"text":"造成台糖損失本金的部分應該是一億一千多萬結果到現在垂討的狀況慘不能讀啊慘不能讀啊那這些錢都是納稅人的錢啊不討回來怎麼可以那台糖過去這幾年到底採取了什麼樣子的作為啊我完全看不懂是因為他是誰"},{"start":2051.513,"end":2057.377,"text":"因為他是無乃人臺堂放水嗎?不敢去要嗎?可以這樣喔?賤賣國家的資產不用負責任錢可以不用吐出來是因為無乃人身份比較特殊嗎?第二個喔我要拜託我們的經濟部部長以及臺堂的同仁"},{"start":2081.701,"end":2096.844,"text":"我們在這邊討論一些基本上面事實的狀況的時候我希望大家是老老實實的把實際的情況給講出來那為什麼我要特別強調在這邊回答問題的時候老老實實的把實際的狀況給講出來上一次11月27號星期三下午5點5分"},{"start":2110.765,"end":2120.731,"text":"我們在這邊所召開的黨團協商針對台堂的這個案子我請教了以後你們當初台堂的同仁說"},{"start":2123.086,"end":2132.414,"text":"我們台糖公司總共賠償的金額是1億1796萬如果加計利息到目前為止是1億2300多萬"},{"start":2143.427,"end":2157.296,"text":"我那天啊我坐在這邊我光聽這個數字啊就不對因為我印象裡面我印象裡面台糖到目前追討回來的錢啊連利息都不夠連利息都不夠"},{"start":2158.513,"end":2166.6,"text":"不要說本金追討多少回來連COVER利息都不夠但是你們那天卻說賠償金額是1億1796萬加計利息到目前為止是1億2300萬"},{"start":2174.387,"end":2192.223,"text":"這是當天黨團協商你們所講的內容我剛剛在唸的是立法院的公報立法院公報上面的記載所以我那天才進一步的請教你們把你們實際上面求償的狀況白紙黑字寫來有個清楚的品證"},{"start":2193.8,"end":2209.433,"text":"你們事後白紙黑字寫來有個清楚的憑證以後我們來看一下他實際上面實際上面到11月30號為止到11月30號為止還沒有受償的金額"},{"start":2214.383,"end":2241.909,"text":"不是一億兩千多萬是一億七千一百四十六萬一千八百零六元我再說一次到十月三十號為止還沒有收藏的金額是一億七千一百四十六萬一千八百零六元所以我說的沒有錯你們到目前為止追討回來的錢連利息都不夠連利息都不夠"},{"start":2243.646,"end":2265.939,"text":"以上補充說明這個是要跟院長啊大家特別說明一下因為我們當初坐在這邊針對這個事情有協商嘛那天台堂應該是代理董事長嘛那也不關今天您是新的董事長嘛那也不關新的董事長的事但機關要有一個機關基本的樣子嘛那坐在這邊我們在討論問題處理問題回答問題的時候就還是請本於事實嘛"},{"start":2272.469,"end":2297.427,"text":"那一天我就聽這個數字就不對啊所以我才請你們事後拿書幕面來看嘛那看了果然沒有錯啊現在是越欠越多啊現在是一億七千一百四十六萬啊連本金啊本金一塊都沒有還啊連歷史都還沒有還完啊那這個是我這次提案啊主要的理由跟內容"},{"start":2299.242,"end":2323.062,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的說明那因為國民黨團要先想我也有提案我想先請台堂說明之後再請林市民署長發言好嗎好台堂我們請吳董事長請好謝謝主席謝謝黃委員的指教那確實像黃委員所談的數字因為有一個"},{"start":2325.334,"end":2326.555,"text":"國民黨黨林思明署長請發言"},{"start":2354.107,"end":2379.382,"text":"好,謝謝院長。院長,針對我們這個第四案,就是廖新祥委員這個案子,那我們了解,就是說台糖公司對於我們提案的廖新祥委員說檢列一百萬,有跟他達成共識。所以如果說是台糖同意檢列一百萬這個案子,我們就不用表決嘛,現在就看台糖他們的態度怎樣。"},{"start":2380.583,"end":2382.143,"text":"這兩個案子都是同樣的"},{"start":2409.793,"end":2431.083,"text":"都是互惠相相,總共四千五百萬嘛。那從國民黨開始談嘛。國民黨統一檢列一百萬,台灣黨統一,那這個案子就剩下黃國昌委的案子嘛。那此別現在是結算的時候啦,明到十二月啦。這些錢早就用掉啦,回來凍結啦。"},{"start":2434.644,"end":2452.977,"text":"只有沒有辦法凍結了,已經用掉了啊。那我們從法律層面來講,剛才黃國昌委員在講的就是說,那個案子後來有判九個月,好像吳蘭也判九個月嘛,經過再審判九個月。法律人都回到法律問題來談啦。"},{"start":2455.132,"end":2472.709,"text":"不管那個案子是必然以後,當然已經判刑,就是照法院案來判了。那代表就是有問題,就是法院這樣認定。那這樣認定的時候,那當然刑事的部分就是如此嘛。民事的部分當然要追首啊。"},{"start":2473.77,"end":2493.402,"text":"這很清楚啊。因為選手台一黨已經從可能的力量去查封、拍賣等等都處理了嘛。不然汙染的部分,汙染的部分他銀行裡面的錢他把它扣走了嘛。然後股票等等嘛。他的土地也把他拍賣掉,拿到338萬嘛。"},{"start":2498.527,"end":2513.265,"text":"所有的無難人的財產裡面全部要照國家法令去處理的所以無難人的部分也就如此至於其他部分當然他有要問這農德公司是什麼"},{"start":2515.707,"end":2530.223,"text":"龍頭公司,最源頭是龍頭公司才對啊。那張子隆是八十萬當然我想他們應該偷產。劉柏成的部分也是如此,錯場三千一百多萬。那整個案子加去利息,利息費用就三千九百多。"},{"start":2532.426,"end":2559.461,"text":"一集會議案是事件罷會的,所以特等會那兩名阿里兄也不夠。但是呢,要發動在廣州就是,就可以這樣做嘛。難道是台南要拿出來賠嗎?台南都隨時看到遇到考測有什麼風海嘛。這個所有民事協同就是這樣嘛。那我不知道,紅艙委員,你現在講出這個案子,你有什麼更好的方法?難道董事長拿出來賠嗎?金金賠嗎?"},{"start":2560.882,"end":2578.979,"text":"是不是這樣?這個東西就是懷疑他們就是如此嘛。懷疑上犯罪有罪所以要賠錢嘛。該關就抓去關嘛。然後回來就去關啊。行政司法就是對於犯罪當事人的處理嘛。主體他的處理不是經濟部啊。"},{"start":2580.669,"end":2608.394,"text":"所以我是覺得即便黃國昌委員很堅持,那這個要表決就表決,也不必多話了。你就是要凍結20%吧,我不知道你凍得到嗎?不管,至少你要表決我們也就奉陪啦。好謝謝柯總統,麻煩請台黨吳董事長,現在12月11號你們已經執行多少?讓我們黨團根本了解一下。"},{"start":2610.922,"end":2623.865,"text":"那個...欸...整個...113年度預估整個齁...數字是...投資性的齁...已經...18億"},{"start":2638.1,"end":2645.224,"text":"十八億六千八百八十五萬然後已經執行了專業服務費的話"},{"start":2657.598,"end":2681.639,"text":"四千五百萬四千五百萬四千五百萬四千五百萬然後已經出資了七百八十七萬了那預計到年底要增加一千萬待結與三千五百"},{"start":2683.356,"end":2708.131,"text":"一、三萬九千元。但是吼,我們的那個不動產的收入增加了八億七千一百六十三萬,增加了二十點一七percent。所以要繳土地稅給政府吼,那個叫一百一十三年度的預算增加了一億三千五百七千七億。"},{"start":2711.042,"end":2723.655,"text":"一億三千五百七千年要交給政府,那這個是我們目前執行的狀況,謝謝。好,吳斯亞幹事長請稍待一下,黃國昌總召請發言,吳斯亞幹事長請準備"},{"start":2727.154,"end":2753.178,"text":"第一個針對剛剛民進黨黨團總召柯建民總召的指教大概說明一下第一個柯總召說的沒有錯錢早就用掉了你要怎麼動說的非常有道理但問題是什麼所以我們今天坐在這邊有何意義錢早就用掉了"},{"start":2754.875,"end":2781.822,"text":"如果是這種態度那我們今天坐在這邊審預算是在審心酸的嗎?我錢早就用掉啊看你動得到還是動不到那我一個最根本的問題那我們今天在這邊審預算是在審什麼?我上次就講過了這是上一屆國會該處理沒有處理的事情啊我們負責上後嘛那所以我們看了這個內容"},{"start":2784.793,"end":2810.84,"text":"就不合理阿這個錢就應該要討回來阿第二個部分科總召委沒講錯阿他的確刑事判決確定阿有罪判決確定這個大家都知道但民事責任跟刑事責任是兩回事阿民事損害賠償的責任不會因為你坐過牢就因此而免除嘛"},{"start":2812.452,"end":2837.503,"text":"就因此而免除該要的東西還是要要回來第三個部分是說剛剛柯總召說那難不成要董事長拿出來賠沒有啊我在我的提案內容裡面從來沒有要台糖公司的董事長拿出來賠沒有啊我要求的是什麼我要求的是你們到底要怎麼樣積極求償要有計畫"},{"start":2841.36,"end":2866.326,"text":"不能這樣子消極阿!阿我說的也不是沒有道理阿!我覺得台湯的球場就非常的消極嘛!阿說查無財產阿!那請問台湯到底做了什麼?阿你就是申請向民事執行處去執行做了什麼?第一個你有向執行去申請新聞債務人的程序嗎?"},{"start":2869.995,"end":2891.574,"text":"這個是在強制執行法裡面有規定的事項啊這都是法定在權人依照強制執行法所可以採取要求民事執行處的申請手段啊那要求債務人說明就可以請債務人好好說明啊他是不是嫌有履行義務之可能故不履行啊這個也是強制執行法的明定的事由啊"},{"start":2894.084,"end":2912.216,"text":"當債務人嫌憂履行,義務之可能,故不履行,在《強力執行法》上的效果是什麼?我相信台黨花了這麼多錢請了大律師,不會這麼難理解啊。那我為什麼說無乃人是嫌憂履行之義,只可能故不履行?跟國家說,我就沒錢啊。但問題是,我們光從媒體上面的報導看起來就不是這個樣子啊。"},{"start":2924.312,"end":2945.42,"text":"可以找民進黨的立委去club聊宇宙大爆炸然後沒有錢還國家這個到底是一個什麼樣子的狀態啊所有的人都非常困惑啊我也很困惑啊可以在外面吃香黑辣過得爽歪歪"},{"start":2946.84,"end":2947,"text":"請吳司業幹事長請發言"},{"start":2976.972,"end":2978.474,"text":"我們現在在審議預算處理的是台糖預算案有關於營業成本向下對於投資不動產費用他衍生的各項專業服務費"},{"start":2997.512,"end":3025.066,"text":"所以我先來續明一下這一個預算的本身的處理可以用在哪些部分。台湯有很多的土地,那有的要做不同的處分,有的可能要有開發的行為。所以說呢,會有非常多的專業服務要進行,譬如說要請精算師,要請法律律師,要請工程的專家,或者是各類的檢驗。"},{"start":3026.767,"end":3052.087,"text":"這些都是委外去進行的專業服務費我先講預算是這裡那黃國昌總召是針對某一個司法個案來討論這個案子因為用的就是這一筆的律師的費用當然可以討論只是從我的理解跟剛剛聽起來台堂的回應台堂從頭到尾沒有不追討這筆錢嘛"},{"start":3054.383,"end":3059.66,"text":"台堂的立場也是很清楚依據司法的判決該追討就應當追討"},{"start":3062.205,"end":3090.454,"text":"所以臺堂沒有不追討這筆錢那現在進入追討的程序我想我們在場的協商代表有很多的法律人不只黃國昌總召還有我們蔡易宇律師林思敏律師都在這裡所以依據法律對於司法個案衍生的民事賠償他就可以依據強制執行法去做後續的執行所以讓法律去進行他的程序"},{"start":3092.771,"end":3106.522,"text":"有委員會覺得討得不夠快不夠多但是我要說這就是法律的程序也不是今天台堂的董事長或是接任的董事長他個人就可以決定我要怎麼追討都有法律的規範所以講回來"},{"start":3111.007,"end":3135.401,"text":"因為台唐有很多的土地都會有後續的處分或是開發的必要這一筆專業服務費我是希望不要傷及無辜啦因為如果委員他所主張的是台唐對於每一筆土地未來的處分都要非常的精確精算都不要再發生這樣子的案子那當然就要支持讓台唐的專業服務能夠做得好"},{"start":3136.321,"end":3164.322,"text":"所以說講回來預算的處理我認為比較合宜的處理像剛剛國民黨的提案簡列100萬那台商覺得可以好那就OK成立那如果說後續我認為就現在處理黃國昌凍結50%的這個部分是不是就能夠就你們已經在這個項下支出之外還剩下沒有支出沒有執行的預算數來做多少比例的凍結"},{"start":3165.823,"end":3189.141,"text":"我覺得這樣才是正辦啦那我講非常理性法律有法律的程序司法個案尊重司法的判決該追討有強制執行法的相關規範那就預算論預算這筆上下如果支用了我不曉得支用了多少那沒有支用的那就來討論既然沒有執行年底也到了那再來進行凍結比例的決定"},{"start":3191.912,"end":3214.218,"text":"稍微等一下,那個柯總召先舉手。舉手完,結束之後我們請國民黨二人發言,我們先請國民黨二人發言,兩人發言過好不好?副總召,你稍微等一下,好請,柯總召請,你講完,副總召好不好?要照排隊就照排隊我就先講,本來我要讓給議員就可以了。"},{"start":3216.584,"end":3245.567,"text":"我想黃委員也是民事的專家啦,法律專家啦,因為政府民眾大家也不會懷疑你的專業能力啦。你剛才講說,先有能力而故意不要,不管怎樣,或是民事執行的手段。這些民事的個案啊,拿來做以做一個討論,還要預算,事實上是不對的啦。但是人家不是把他卡啦。"},{"start":3246.809,"end":3260.66,"text":"太早進所有方法去處理了,它裡面包括法院司也有律師的律師會長,他當然窮盡一切,或者他有他有嫌有違法之類的,他又不能推他,所以台南會長嚴謹在處理這個事情嘛,共產機關不會開玩笑的嘛。"},{"start":3264.981,"end":3286.579,"text":"這不是輸的事啦,當我們來的是,你現在一講他一肉大爆炸,我覺得也不需要了啦。這事講幾年了啦,不能夠講這個了啦。今天是在立法院處以預算的問題。然後再牽拖,然後再看路,翻圖說故事,也不好了啦。我們面對實際,剛才,剛才胡志偉點出一個問題嘛。"},{"start":3292.253,"end":3307.289,"text":"但能現在這筆費用七千五百萬還沒執行數有多少吧?那國民黨做得很清楚,我要看一百萬,那這樣很清楚,他就接受吧。那會執行數可能不到三千萬吧?"},{"start":3308.479,"end":3327.231,"text":"那我只能就是說大家你假如叫程旭去表決表決的時候剩下這些一半要砍一半就砍一半吧就當然到程旭處理吧那我現在還有另外一個方法我不曉得那以後民間的民事都要來這間橋啊大家修董這什麼意思啊"},{"start":3330.883,"end":3350.251,"text":"我剛才講的說,這不可能部長去撇到這種犯罪主體是誰去撇吧,也不分經濟部吧。我們這個東西明確一點,不宜再講了太多也沒有什麼意思了。大概能夠用方式大概這樣。謝謝副主席主任我要請發言,然後張總要請準備。謝謝院長。我想對這個問題啊,"},{"start":3361.352,"end":3387.447,"text":"現在討論起來應該都沒有誰對誰錯的問題啦只是根本上的問題要解決啦就是說為什麼現在我們在審113年的預算這是很可笑的事情錢都已經用掉了我們現在再來審查這個預算當然這是上一屆的問題為什麼要到這一屆來處理這是第一啦第二"},{"start":3389.088,"end":3415.743,"text":"是不是我們也應該做一個徹底的一個解決啊?我們現在碰到的問題明天就不要類似的情況再來。所以明年是不是我們就在第一季結束以後第二季就開始審查,再審查這個當季的這個國營事業預算。而且這樣子有比較立即性,就你第一季你怎麼執行是不是有問題。其實預算跟決算那個時候已經同步在進行了。"},{"start":3417.142,"end":3443.717,"text":"我覺得是不是這樣以後啊對立法院的效力會更加的來提升那今天我想黃國超黃總召他當然有權利去質疑因為代表民意到底這個追償是不是有盡責其實就是公務員有沒有盡責在做應該做的事情怎麼看到月月升哥然後為什麼沒有錢來繳當然這個也是一個大災問"},{"start":3446.499,"end":3469.6,"text":"那現在這個問題就是說大家一起集思廣益來把它解決啦但是我還是很尊重說各黨團所表達的意見那我們該怎麼處理就怎麼處理但是明年我們希望同樣的問題不會重蹈覆轍好不好謝謝謝謝副總召應見已經特別提醒我們明年度我們審預算的時程那請華國昌總召請發言蔡議員先準備"},{"start":3471.977,"end":3495.289,"text":"那個我先拜託也跟院長請示一下我們發言的規則是不是跟以前一樣就黨團輪流就每一次都這樣輪嘛我覺得這個規則把它建立清楚是蠻重要的這樣以後大家都不用在那邊比嘛所以我有舉手你沒舉手我舉得快你舉得慢這樣院長在主持會議的時候也不會說"},{"start":3497.571,"end":3520.793,"text":"不小心你明明主持的很中立很公正但是還是要有人對你大小聲說他手舉的快別人手舉的慢所以我只想說第一個先確認這樣一個基本的原則三個黨團大家是用輪的那現在我們應該是進行到第三輪嘛對吧到第三輪最後"},{"start":3523.11,"end":3546.575,"text":"針對有關於剛剛民進黨黨團的幹部們所提出來的指教請容我再說明幾次第一個我們現在面臨到的狀況是說現在要年底了嘛那錢都花了嘛那要不然要怎麼辦嘛那如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":3548.049,"end":3576.944,"text":"那其實我們接下來的案子也沒什麼討論的必要了就直接問他們啊你現在執行多少了還剩下多少錢剩下的錢我幫你三一三幫你們提高執行率就好了如果是用這樣子的態度在處理現在的預算的話那其實大家都在浪費時間啊浪費不必要的勞力時間費用打開天窗說亮話就是這樣啊"},{"start":3578.186,"end":3606.418,"text":"大家都在浪費時間啊那我們現在坐在這邊做這些事情到底有什麼意義其他事也不用討論啊那所有人關心的事情也不用討論啊直接上來第一個問題就說請問你現在執行了多少還剩多少來我幫你刪一刪然後等到年底的時候大家的執行率都很漂亮我不知道立法院在審預算的時候什麼時候成為促進行政機關預算執行率的工具啊"},{"start":3610.183,"end":3634.526,"text":"這個是第一個那第二個部分我也要很清楚的講啊我在這邊審預算啊不會在這邊喬什麼個案啊因為剛剛柯建民總召有指教啊說什麼民事的個案拿來這邊喬沒有啊大家只要清楚聽我發言就知道我執意的是什麼我執意的是台堂你有認真追討嗎在強制執行的程序當中你可以做的很消極嘛"},{"start":3637.663,"end":3653.936,"text":"執行不到怎麼辦?執行不到就拿一張債權憑證嘛掛在牆壁上我剛剛講的還不夠清楚明白嗎?那但是還是嫌有履行義務的可能故不履行有請債務人報告他的財產狀況嗎?債務人有說明嗎?有積極的吹討行為嗎?因為大家看了都很狐疑啊大家看了也覺得很奇怪啊"},{"start":3666.81,"end":3692.502,"text":"過得爽歪歪的花天酒地吃喝玩樂欠國家的錢沒有錢還我對台堂基本上提出來我的疑問就是這個樣子啊我也沒有叫台堂做什麼搶你們所難的事情啊你積極求償的計畫到底是什麼嗎還是消滅時效到的時候提一個強制執行申請狀換發債權憑證這樣就算了"},{"start":3696.109,"end":3716.759,"text":"因為現實上面大家看到的是看不懂啊國家賠的盈益多欸你現在討回來的錢連利息都不夠欸然後這個事情立法院沒有辦法監督沒有辦法追究責任那請問我們到底該怎麼辦算了大家就長嘆一口氣就算了"},{"start":3724.975,"end":3744.569,"text":"對不起啊,我就是沒有辦法算了所以我才會這麼堅持啊我從我第一次在當立委2016到2018我就在追這件事啊結果我沒想到啊我再回來的時候錢越欠越多錢越欠越多啊啊這個事情怎麼處理成這個樣子的啊你總要給納稅人一個交入貸啊"},{"start":3753.732,"end":3769.127,"text":"還是我們作為立法委員該跟納稅人講,臺黨很努力,臺黨很盡責,臺黨已經窮盡了法律的手段,但是那個人就是很皮,他就是不還,所以我們大家也沒有辦法,大家摸摸鼻子就算了,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":3776.372,"end":3805.303,"text":"首先第一個還是在基本上我們大家都是百分之百尊重院長你的程序的一個主持所以我剛剛也是在事要委員發言完然後我舉手因為沒有其他人舉手所以應該也不像黃國昌委員說的就是說這個黨團輪流我是看到正好沒有人我舉手爭取要發言那後來院長說我們總召以及副總召事實上他們都在前面我也是尊重阿"},{"start":3805.723,"end":3832.102,"text":"我就排在後面所以我想這個發言的程序就是院長你在主持這個是沒有問題的第二個回到我們這樣的一個案子我先講啦就我看到黃國昌委員的提案他是希望台糖公司向本經紀委員會提出具體追查計畫報告那經同意後使得動之那台糖有提阿他今天就提了阿"},{"start":3835.302,"end":3855.765,"text":"他今天提的捏,而且我說提這個吼,如果以我的標準吼,我跟施民委員,我們當律師,提這個,很奇怪啊,你今天要告訴債務人,哎喲,人家要做動作了。你看,提這個,報告出來,向中華郵政查詢吳軍等人的存款債權。"},{"start":3857.304,"end":3876.369,"text":"向中央集保查詢吳乃仁等四人的有價證券,向勞動部勞工保險局查詢,向中央人壽保險商業工會查詢他們的投保資料,那依《強制執行法》二十條,然後命吳乃仁據實報告財產狀況。提出這個報告,叫債務人幹嘛?"},{"start":3884.196,"end":3900.304,"text":"再無人看到了就笑死人了。脫產。所以這個報告要幹嘛?好,那也提出了啊。那提出了就成如說我們今天的這個提案的目的達成了啊。他提出了他會這麼做。"},{"start":3902.076,"end":3928.382,"text":"然後再回到台塘公司的本身事實上我們從他歷次的追償的過程我們知道他從109年這個判決確定後他就開始強制執行至少在109年他就已經有執行然後有部分的受償在112年看起來台塘公司還是有透過台中地方法院再次執行那也有執行到了無乃人的財產那一百八十幾萬"},{"start":3930.623,"end":3948.152,"text":"在一百一十三年也就是今年的時候有再次執行那也有受償都寫在這裡那一直到了今年都還有在執行那執行有沒有效果這件事情怎麼會變成再苛責台堂呢?"},{"start":3949.777,"end":3968.462,"text":"如果我們今天去鬥責他,講白了就是苛責他,那方偉仁的意思是說,你還有其他做法,好,那就要求他去做。事實上去做最後決定權都還是在執行處嘛。縱使說,你要要求用哪些的強制力對債務人給他強制力,那就執行處去決定。"},{"start":3969.946,"end":3990.865,"text":"就彷彿說啦我們在看到了現在這個法務部北檢這邊要扣要扣金華城要扣那個金華城的財產那後來有看到成功又沒有扣成了我們也不能因為這樣去苛責法務部阿說欸你們怎麼在法律的論點上輸了"},{"start":3992.926,"end":4006.999,"text":"那沒有扣押成功。所以我舉的例子就是說,強制執行自然有他應該要去做,所以應該要去看他有沒有積極的在做強制執行。那如果109年有執行,112年有執行,113年也有執行,看起來他並不是待於強制執行。"},{"start":4012.881,"end":4037.498,"text":"那黃國昌委員希望他提出未來他的執行計畫。好,今天我們也看到後續執行計畫了。那既然也達到目的了,我想這一案達到目的後,那應該就今同一後始得動之。那應該,不過也年底啦,應該也動到現在也差不多了。那我也贊成副總召所說的,我們未來在審理國營事業預算的時候,應該要更快。"},{"start":4038.078,"end":4044.983,"text":"然後不要拖到了他們像現在都已經執行到了12月了我們才在審這樣的預算這個是蠻荒謬的沒有錯我們未來應該去精進這一塊好謝謝各位黨團幹部"},{"start":4054.906,"end":4070.47,"text":"針對剛剛民進黨黨團幹部蔡議員與蔡委員的指教大概說明一樣第一個可能從蔡委員的觀點提出來台堂提出來這張紙目前球場的狀況他滿意這樣的球場計畫但我覺得話要把他講清楚這個是目前球場的狀態不是球場的計畫"},{"start":4080.953,"end":4090.559,"text":"我再說明一次這個是球場的狀態不是無視球場的計畫第二個我在提案的內容上面說的是什麼"},{"start":4091.994,"end":4109.268,"text":"不好意思喔,那個院長,我們是不是維持一個基本的規則?現在我在發言,剛剛蔡議員委員在發言的時候我從來沒有插嘴嗎?現在我在發言的時候蔡議員委員在對面做干擾,這樣的行為是我們在協商的時候要建立的規則嗎?沒關係,我們尊重發言委員,見。是嗎?好,謝謝院長。"},{"start":4116.374,"end":4144.488,"text":"那第二個事情是什麼?要你提球場的計畫就接下來具體要怎麼做嗎?包括review你過去做了什麼嗎?那接下來你做了什麼嗎?那蔡議員剛剛委員講的是說向哪裡查詢?向哪裡查詢?向哪裡查詢?那不是要強制執行的手段裡面最基本的啊?最基本的基本動作啊?怎麼好像講的是說啊我就說我要怎麼球場這件事情會洩漏秘密然後債務人趕快去脫產怎麼會有這麼可笑的說法?"},{"start":4147.278,"end":4171.681,"text":"　︎"},{"start":4172.421,"end":4201.804,"text":"台堂該做的事情去積極的求償那絕對不是消極的第一個強制執行申請狀給執行機關就算了你還要看的是什麼你還要看裡面申請執行的手段啊你申請執行的手段先有履行義務的可能故不履行但在強制執行法上就會有強制執行法的效果啊今天提這個案子我就是對台堂目前他們的求償我沒有辦法接受那當然"},{"start":4203.12,"end":4231.317,"text":"我這樣子講是不是屬於對於台糖公司的苛責不合理的要求我的提案是不是有道理沒有道理全國的人民都可以監督啊全國的人民都可以監督啊那只是我覺得話要把它講清楚嘛我就是認為台糖到目前為止積極的整個追償的手段就不夠積極啊"},{"start":4233.666,"end":4262.841,"text":"以上。好,再下來柯建民總召,國民黨團發言請隨時舉手。請柯總召。難道要給黃國昌委員一個第一report嗎?每天都跟你報告這個事情嗎?你當過律師嘛,這裡面律師一大堆啊。所有前台下的相關的案件都是如此嘛。就窮定一些手段去把他追溯嘛。啊這個有什麼錯誤啊?我不知道黃國昌委員今天大概這麼多時間,到底誰在浪費誰的時間,你要把他,大家都看得很清楚嘛。"},{"start":4263.812,"end":4278.969,"text":"是你一直在說,要說這樣不行不可以,不行不可以,你必須安全地說出來嘛。啊叫你講,最好就是你要把他動一半,我們都表決嘛。那還有什麼方法呢?"},{"start":4280.436,"end":4304.887,"text":"總是不能這樣的處理嘛,這樣一個事情繞這麼久,我想每一家公司,台南公司有民事賠償的,也不是只有這一間嘛,東東馬屋,每一家公司都有啊,能夠做的就是如此嘛。那我們今天在這裡一直繞繞,啊不然要叫台中安專去公安上做,那我們來解決嘛,只能這樣而已嘛。"},{"start":4307.405,"end":4322.014,"text":"你要把它動一半,我們都表決了,表決都沒有關係嘛。剩下的,他現在是人不算成本,董事會可以處理嘛。這副董事都講得很清楚,年度都要結束了,還要搞這個東西。這是立法院自己的問題嘛。好不好。"},{"start":4325.469,"end":4328.971,"text":"副總召請發言,然後蔡宜予幹事長。那個院長我建議一下啦,因為這個各黨團都有一個基本的看法。"},{"start":4346.294,"end":4371.469,"text":"那我想黃總召也是慎盡民意監督的責任那當然各個政黨對現在實際目前實際發生的狀況有一個不同的一個看法那我是不是我們建議一下這一個案子這樣子是不是後面就進行不下去了"},{"start":4373.055,"end":4373.235,"text":"主席"},{"start":4389.49,"end":4407.637,"text":"各個委員政黨代表都有他的代表性,都有他實際的該表達的這些事項,基本上大家沒有差很多,就不用你來我往,尤其國常總召講的也是很務實的在追場,"},{"start":4410.338,"end":4434.298,"text":"執政黨還是要有這個寬大的一個格局嘛這個大家講就講嘛我覺得剛好就好了嘛 對不對那不要說 對不對講完老柯就一定要發言哇這個一定要把他這個拋山拋山要把他打回去我覺得不必要啦我覺得讀好的話啦那我們就你看大家都要舉手這條我們就講到六點 對不對"},{"start":4436.997,"end":4439.139,"text":"現在已經進行到3點44分,那我們後面還有30個案。"},{"start":4454.176,"end":4466.296,"text":"所以容許我不得不裁決。本案無法達成共識,我們就保留送院會處理。下面一個案我們就針對中油公司,好嗎?好。黃國昌總統請發言。"},{"start":4468.766,"end":4488.577,"text":"我基本上我尊重院長的才智,但可能還是要拜託院長,在才智的時候我們還是按照本來的遊戲規則,就三個黨團,大家輪流發言。否則的話這樣子整個規則變得很奇怪,很奇怪是有一個人講完話以後就跟院長說,好啦這個事情可以裁了,不要再討論了。"},{"start":4490.051,"end":4510.5,"text":"你基本上還是要去注意大家發言機會的公平性嘛以上這樣的建議提供給院長參考謝謝好謝謝提醒好我們現在接下來中國石油公司現在目前為止中國石油公司方董事長好請那現在"},{"start":4512.714,"end":4537.32,"text":"第36項台灣民眾黨團張祺凱委員所提列,減列十分之一,一億六千八百七十八萬。那跟43案理由都是一樣,所提出來的都是減...我們先只討論第36案,減列十分之一,請張祺凱委員請發言。"},{"start":4540.327,"end":4555.636,"text":"這個案只是牽涉到公共安全我們民眾黨在台灣民眾黨在九月份就開了記者會的我也質詢過經濟部部長跟次長還有問了前後任的中遊董事長"},{"start":4557.117,"end":4572.652,"text":"經濟部引漏說要盡快去解決這問題的第一天我開記者會的同時就發了新聞稿的那這個是基於公共安全而且這是三接三接不能斷氣那三接在明年的三月底預定就要通就要就要"},{"start":4575.073,"end":4597.225,"text":"所以我們是基於第一個是公共安全第二個是國家的重要建設我們也沒有黨可是兩件事情一定要做這個也是之前經濟部跟中友同意要做可是到目前沒做的第一個就是他的這個管線啊天然氣的這個輸送管線啊保冷的這個材質出了問題這是今年中友在二月份的時候就發現了結果一直沒有改"},{"start":4598.604,"end":4612.086,"text":"內部的吹哨者來跟我檢舉,來陳情,那麼查證完之後,因為都有公文嘛,那終於承認確實有這個問題,所以它是嚴重,又牽涉到公共安全,所以臺灣民眾黨非常明確要求兩個,"},{"start":4613.51,"end":4628.929,"text":"第一、不能像本來中游是說邊做邊做一部分一小部分一小部分去改。那麼達成共識就是說某些材料趕快找到然後某些管線要一個管子弄好之後全部弄完之後確保它安全才可以開始輸送。"},{"start":4632.152,"end":4646.166,"text":"二、承包商責任,因為這個案子裡面承包商不只做了給了這個假的材料還做了假的報告那這個到目前為止我知道終於有來溝通了好幾次可是到目前為什麼他還是減淚的一個狀態"},{"start":4647.441,"end":4671.396,"text":"因為到目前沒有規劃沒有進度我知道董事長很擔心部長也關心你們有派了代表來講了某些那目前我到目前拿到的進度就是這個保冷的這個管線的這個材料目前進來的比例還非常的少比如說全部進來啦你到明年三月份你要完成那些全部材料應該都要進來啦可是到目前進來大概只有十分之一喔所以我要求兩件事情第一個你的材料要趕快進來"},{"start":4672.85,"end":4697.46,"text":"然後後面的你到底要怎麼,你在明年的三月之前,你說你每個月到底要換多少,你要有規劃案啊,你整個時程是怎麼樣啊,這筆錢我才可能給你嘛,好不好,我這樣要求應該很合理嘛,而且這是有共識的,這也是經濟部、中友跟我們臺灣民眾黨有共識的,基於國家的安全,這個天然氣我們願意共同促成,讓他明年的三月比是可以完成,可是為了公共安全。"},{"start":4698.24,"end":4709.03,"text":"所以你們的速度一定要加快,好不好,確保公共安全。這個案的本案委員會凍結兩千萬,張棋凱委員所提出來的是簡略十分之一。我們現在請民進黨團柯總召請發言。這個有關於張棋凱委員講的話我們聽得下去。"},{"start":4715.218,"end":4716.098,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4744.477,"end":4746.438,"text":"謝謝。接下來國民黨團哪一位?請林思明署長請發言"},{"start":4761.592,"end":4774.616,"text":"這個案子就是我想還是回歸到就是說到目前到底執行率如何是所以如果執行率已經到現在年底都已經用的差不多了包含所謂的人事的費用這個齁"},{"start":4777.171,"end":4800.319,"text":"對,如果人事費用已經用了差不多當然我們是尊重民眾提案的黨團的意見但是我們請中郵就這部分詳細做說明對,做說明那我們再來看怎麼樣來處理好不好好,尊重院長的確定這邊資料是中郵到四月底的沒關係,方董事長您可以針對我們幾個黨團委員的疑慮請說明一下目前"},{"start":4800.879,"end":4805.061,"text":"主要是針對三接保冷材的一個不合材料以及更換的一個主題內容。我想這邊說明就三十六案本身這個案子跟三接"},{"start":4821.368,"end":4846.771,"text":"主體是沒有關係的36萬的管理費用主要是針對我們中油大樓所需要的用人費用以及這個大樓的尾運費用所編列的一個預算那這個預算到11月已經執行了15.87億那麼全年的預算數是16.88億所以這個管理費用預估到年底是會執行完畢的"},{"start":4848.132,"end":4872.987,"text":"所以我們是建議這個案子,三十六案本身,因為跟三接沒有直接的關係,建議就是免三免動,然後改成主決議,這是第一個。當然第四十三案,四十三案來講的話,就跟三接的預算是有直接的關係。對於委員所關心的兩件事情,我也在這邊跟各位委員做個進度的報告。"},{"start":4874.668,"end":4901.666,"text":"那麼不合格材料去更換我想這個是公司以及承攬商來講都同意去進行不過第一個階段來講的話就必須先知道說這個不合格的材料的數量是多少以及呢在這麼短的時間內要如何去取得這個料源要必須確立那目前執行的情形呢也跟各位說明那必須要去更換的材料的總量是一萬四千"},{"start":4903.097,"end":4922.858,"text":"〇〇〇〇〇"},{"start":4922.858,"end":4943.592,"text":"〇〇〇〇"},{"start":4943.852,"end":4955.805,"text":"明年二月十五日所以在交貨以後陸陸續續有關去拆換去安裝那麼這個所整體會安排更換的時間我們會再補題這個規劃的內容那麼給這個張委員辦公室這邊來參考以上補充說明"},{"start":4965.219,"end":4989.947,"text":"好,謝謝方委員說明。提案委員,張信凱委員請再發言,然後請吳世耀委員請準備。董事長,我知道你很用心要解決這個問題,不過你剛剛聽下來進度真的慢了非常非常的多。因為你明年三月底就全部都要完工了。你現在最早的一批,最早一批都要到明年的一月。"},{"start":4991.377,"end":5010.9,"text":"那最晚一批二月份,你這樣來就即三月了,你到時候總統跟行政院長跟經濟部長都要去剪綵了,是不是?你這樣會負喔?你這樣三月,三月底你會負責喔?你這樣就delay了喔?你這樣不就delay了嗎?而且這裡面有一個很重要的,欸,你的承攬商這麼大白喔?"},{"start":5012.028,"end":5026.608,"text":"一個你要追究他的責任阿!阿你一個企業裡面這個案子為什麼嚴重?第一個是公共安全。第二你承包商完全不照合約裡面的內容走阿!他如果違約你要趕快去處理問題阿!你進度要再催一下啦!第一個是進度要再催一下!"},{"start":5027.429,"end":5055.595,"text":"你不能夠等到他一月份到二月份要進來那第二更重要的你要跟本席跟所有的立法委員跟全民提出一個非常明確的你的改善計劃你什麼時候的管制什麼時候可以換好而且時間要往前好不好提一個計劃第一個你去催時間材料要要儘快不能夠再等到明年的二月了啦這是一個第二個你要很明確跟大家保證你每一個階段裡面你要做多少例如說到了今年的年底明年的一月份明年的二月份你換了多少"},{"start":5057.503,"end":5083.98,"text":"這樣才有辦法嘛好不好那因為你今天還提不出來所以我建議我們這筆預算不見得要檢列啦我可以同意把檢列變成是凍結好不好因為他有花了一部分的錢嘛好不好部長好不好我本來是要檢列兩億的那今天可以同意可以同意我可以同意變成是凍結可是剛剛講的這是你對全民要交代啦好不好"},{"start":5085.714,"end":5090.259,"text":"好,謝謝,接下來OK了嗎?接下來請吳世耀委員發言,陳一尊委員請準備"},{"start":5091.694,"end":5115.526,"text":"我想這樣的討論很具體很聚焦就從提案委員的要求也非常的明確那確實基於公共安全的必要對於這個保冷財要趕快來更換那旗開委員更替你們超前部署要在期限內更換那到貨的時間也不要去延宕嘛所以提案委員的要求非常具體也非常合理"},{"start":5116.827,"end":5132.865,"text":"另外一個部分,除了是更換的改善計劃要來進行,你們應當提給委員。我想這個大家都支持。剛剛錫凱委員也提出善意。四十三案他可以用決議的方式,但是就是改成凍結。我想這個就這樣。"},{"start":5135.922,"end":5158.352,"text":"那三十六案的部分因為那個跟旗下委員報告剛剛董事長的說明是因為這個項目他是中油大樓的管理費所以管理費是中油大樓在這個信義區的那一棟所有的人事啦所有管理的支出所以說沒辦法去擋住所以可以把兩案就是如同您剛講的中整用一個決議然後來凍結兩議"},{"start":5161.153,"end":5187.964,"text":"我覺得這非常合理我也附和也支持民眾黨委員這樣子的做法但是中友該提的改善報告還有要完成更新就要加快進行我覺得這樣子的討論很有意義也很有共識接下來陳玉珍委員發言臺灣民眾黨團請準備我剛剛聽這個中友董事長說的齁到11月份花了15.87嘛主要是人事費嘛對嘛齁七成這裡面七成都是人事費嘛那平均一個月1.44嘛11個到11月嘛"},{"start":5191.105,"end":5214.354,"text":"對,所以如果到這個,如果是到12個月,等於是就要花到,如果按照你這樣平均,你們分預算又是平均分的嘛,如果到12月應該就要加,再加1.4就要17.31啊,17.31那你編16.87嘛,對不對。換句話說,要嘛你們就少編5000萬,要嘛就你們前面多用的錢啊,如果你用平均的這個均分法的話,不然就是你騙我們啊。"},{"start":5218.724,"end":5242.611,"text":"你剛說15.87是11個月吧,到11月底嘛。那每個月就是他平均來講均分來講就1.44啊。那我說預算執行啦。我問吧,我這樣大概的算法嘛。那這樣如果這樣到12月底就必須要17.31啊。那你編的是16.87,要嘛就是你少編5000萬嘛。要嘛就你前面就超支了嘛。就只有這種可能嘛。不然就你剛講數字騙我們嘛。"},{"start":5244.272,"end":5256.167,"text":"我不知道是哪一個可能,因為兜不起來這個數字啊。所以是不是你們或者你們前面就用的比較多,還沒有通過你們就用比較多嘛。反正生米煮成熟飯啊,你認為立法院沒有辦法。"},{"start":5258.19,"end":5262.974,"text":"16.87億我們預估到年底會用完第一個報告第二個就是說在以112年來講你告訴我113就好了16.87到年底會用完你現在用了15.87剩下一億還有多少是人事費呢"},{"start":5283.206,"end":5294.102,"text":"一億的話有多少人是費?我想報告就是說以112年的決算數來講我們這個費用的支出呢就已經到達16.95億112年即便浪費不等於我113年會讓你浪費你告訴我這個數字到年底還要大概"},{"start":5299.269,"end":5300.81,"text":"委員應該大概意思就是今年會操資的意思"},{"start":5329.07,"end":5344.582,"text":"　︿　"},{"start":5345.12,"end":5365.449,"text":"我現在問你本年嘛,我們現在在審113年預算,你告訴我說,現在用到15.87,那剩下一個月,因為你的預算編列16.87嘛,所以還有1億嘛,我現在只有很明白問你說,這個1億裡頭多少是人事費,因為我剛剛也聽到各種要講人事費要留著嘛,到底有多少,還是說不夠?"},{"start":5366.169,"end":5390.367,"text":"　　　"},{"start":5392.007,"end":5411.812,"text":"他剛剛說到11月用了15.87吧那平均起來每個月就是用1.44嘛那我幫你加回去你這個月就要用1.44嘛那就會17.31嘛那跟你編了16.87啊那就是不夠嘛那是你編不夠是怎麼回事所以你們沒有編過我們給你你又可以發出薪水你自掏腰包嗎還是你不知道"},{"start":5419.199,"end":5423.781,"text":"十二月大概用人費用大概會支出一億啦。我現在就是...呃..."},{"start":5445.578,"end":5446.639,"text":"其他管理費用的話"},{"start":5464.229,"end":5474.339,"text":"不是就是並決算辦理所以我們怎麼審我們減兩億沒差他反正最後進別算辦理我們減三億也一樣他並決算辦理反正沒有給他他並決算也能用阿他用其他的費用了啦他挪用"},{"start":5479.502,"end":5479.802,"text":"接下來台灣民眾黨"},{"start":5502.717,"end":5516.47,"text":"因為等一下是民進黨發言在賴世保委員要發言,你旗開委員還在發言是吧?抱歉抱歉,我們來解決問題啦齁,我當初提這個...這樣旗開委員我們要濃縮聚焦一下好不好?對對對,我們來收起來,我們趕快來解決。第36案,資料測案"},{"start":5518.943,"end":5539.15,"text":"欸沒有測案喔,我再解釋說為什麼當初...我們先確定第36沒有,檢列檢列檢列檢列我要解釋一下,當初為什麼會提到管理費用必須...抱歉當初為什麼會提案說管理費用必須要檢列一億多的原因是因為這個案子很明顯就是管理不當的問題嘛"},{"start":5540.45,"end":5560.665,"text":"到目前要嘛你就承包商那邊你要追究他的責任你有去追嘛對不對可是這個事情的責任你要追清楚我在執行的時候講得非常清楚第一個吹哨者為了國家的安全為了這個整個三接三接的這個安全他站出來了那你們說會回去會獎勵他們嘛對不對可是相對的這個過程裡面有疏忽的人責任要追清楚"},{"start":5561.522,"end":5571.243,"text":"所以當初我才提到說要減類這筆錢嘛那第二個剛剛錢看起來現在是有點多不起來可是第一個責任追了沒有這是要去貫徹了那第二個一定要一個"},{"start":5572.608,"end":5598.602,"text":"人民把這個監督政府的這個責任寄託給立法委員嘛那立法院發現有弊案啊這個事情我覺得中有應該不是只有這個在這個經費上面部分應該要減劣可能不是要減劣這麼多可是一定要有適度這個減劣的費用好不好一億多一億六千我本來是提一億六千八百七十八我建議減劣三千減劣三千萬啦好不好減劣三千萬你要多少"},{"start":5600.732,"end":5624.81,"text":"現在是委員會凍結兩千你要再加一千變凍結兩千欸沒有沒有四十六、四十三抱歉報告、報告院長、報告院長四十三案、四十三案凍結兩億凍結兩億這大家剛通過了齁那現在往前推三十六是管理費用減列三千萬本來是減列一億六千八百七十八萬我現在可以同意減列三千萬"},{"start":5627.345,"end":5629.748,"text":"當然如果國民黨一聲認為要更多一點,可以再討論。"},{"start":5648.908,"end":5665.598,"text":"我發現張志祺剛講完話以後,現在又有不同的看法、意見,這個讓我悶辣。我們講說這個管理費用、石油業管理費用、指定市費用、水電、水晶等等。這些都是坦白講,這不台的。所以剛才主張要做一個組結議,那兩點組結議。"},{"start":5671.785,"end":5685.756,"text":"你講出來,我附和你啊。我講出來,啊你也同意啊。沒關係啦。大家都同意的嘛。我們是要改革,你聽我說啦。我們是要改革事情。不是在那裏,在那裏出事。因為這有效率的問題。這兩個案應該並看啦。第一個,管理費用的資料坦白講,"},{"start":5692.861,"end":5701.449,"text":"很...很...有紅白發生事的人嘛!你要做的絕對是另外一回事好不好!那你這個...這個都連事務所、水利費用、稅金什麼都要交的嘛!"},{"start":5702.818,"end":5721.687,"text":"這個東西,立法院從來沒有在刪這個東西的。第一個。第二個,沒有等一下啦。第二個就是說,接下來那一百一百一十億的那個工程費用,三千工程費用。那你要把它減劣兩億。當成兩億。當成兩億好。當成兩億好。但是剛才有講到一個重點啦。"},{"start":5729.605,"end":5736.333,"text":"國會事業和中央政府總預算不一樣。中央政府展總預算的時候,這個委員會新興的計畫和預算,"},{"start":5739.318,"end":5757.454,"text":"沒有,立法院,一定要立法院同意才可以。國民事業就是說,所有信心激發,院長簽了就算了,錢就花下去了。然後最後並結算。這個是,國民事業就是如此,最後並結算嘛。所以我們講說,這兩個併在一起,前面這個組決議,後面這個,都能養育,我們併在一起處理就好了嘛。"},{"start":5763.435,"end":5781.66,"text":"那什麼意思就是說前面第36案我們就把它...做組結議吧!兩個變成...OK!那真的不一樣,也不能用組結議啦!兩個真的不一樣!我剛才已經解釋過了嘛!就是他管理不當,所以你一定要責任要...管理不當,你要怎麼去懲處是一回事!但是我不認識人家,沒那回事嘛!"},{"start":5789.162,"end":5790.322,"text":"好久不見柯總召,聖念!聖念!滿懷念的!聖念!聖念!"},{"start":5806.61,"end":5829.027,"text":"關於這樣子,我想張祺凱委員、民眾黨團提的這個案子都很有意義的。對於第一個案子,36案,這是管理費,它現在剩1億了。剩1億的話,這裡面如果真的刪太多,老實講,那就變成是鼓勵他去挪用其他的錢。否則怎麼辦呢?他一定要挪用其他錢。"},{"start":5831.444,"end":5833.726,"text":"三、繼續研商《中華民國113年度總預算案》案。"},{"start":5855.076,"end":5856.236,"text":"第二個有關於這個三接的這一部分啦"},{"start":5878.732,"end":5890.19,"text":"這凍結這個兩億基本上我也支持了我覺得重點都不在於要凍什麼的重點在於這個終於要趕快把這個後面的換材料的計畫出來"},{"start":5892.025,"end":5911.04,"text":"他的原料什麼時候到什麼時候可以安裝上去顯然現在中央董事長講的是說我從一月開始到貨要到二月底才到貨全部完畢那張委員擔心的是說這樣我不會付錢這樣子我原來schedule三月就沒辦法完工那中央就要講清楚啦"},{"start":5911.761,"end":5935.554,"text":"我三頁不能完工是不是我delete四頁這個在你的整個的一個答辯裡面就要顯清所以我們凍結是主要你寫一個書面計畫這個書面計畫只要到了這個民眾這裡立法院基本上我們就接受了啦好不好大概這樣子謝謝賴司保委員賴司保委員很明確提出來就三一千萬元您能接受嗎請直接發表意見好嗎"},{"start":5936.554,"end":5936.734,"text":"請問各位黨團有意見嗎?"},{"start":5956.185,"end":5977.299,"text":"不好意思,不是提書面報告,他已經要很具體的去落實他的那個材料趕快進來,然後要登上記錄,對不對?那我們第36案檢列一千萬,第43案凍結兩億...現在我們請忠義有表示一下他...他不是人事費用,他是管理費用啦!管理費用不是人事費用!"},{"start":5978.234,"end":5979.255,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說,左邊的預算今年會執行完畢。"},{"start":5997.725,"end":6017.746,"text":"那麼這裡面有七成是用人費用那麼為什麼今年可能會所編預算不夠因為我們在原編預算的時候並沒有把今年的條新有考慮進去所以那麼當然如果是大院這邊決議要刪一千萬我們得以尊重但是我們只是認為"},{"start":6018.647,"end":6020.748,"text":"第四十三案有關張委員所提到的保冷財的汰換的部分。"},{"start":6035.334,"end":6053.091,"text":"各位報告,因為最近才決定這些新購的材料預定到達臺灣的時間。我們會同步的去探討有關更換的排程會是怎麼樣一個安排。這是我們把這個更換排程的計畫一起補在一起,再給委員參考。"},{"start":6055.947,"end":6075.554,"text":"一句話就好了,就是他們提了書面了,要經過我們同意完之後,這個筆預算才能解凍,不是送來就解凍。謝謝。請副總召詢。副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詢、副總召詳、副總召詳、副總召詳、副總召詳、副總召詳、副總召詳、副總召詳、副總"},{"start":6079.113,"end":6098.311,"text":"你又很成功地讓我們又持續地花了將近二十分鐘來討論這個問題。民進黨待會頒獎給你,因為我們在協商的時間真的很有限。你中油這麼龐大的公司,內部可以自行調整,預算可以自行調整。我為了一千萬你討論二十分鐘,待會柯總統會頒獎給你。"},{"start":6100.892,"end":6101.193,"text":"很多東西齁"},{"start":6127.864,"end":6128.784,"text":"各位黨的幹部麻煩大家"},{"start":6152.861,"end":6175.185,"text":"我想我總結他的好不好這個已經齁廣開扇門了看你柯老闆的面子已經講了報告來就好後面沒有加一句還要報告後使得動之我沒有加這句嘛好不好沒有加這句OK的啦老師問一下齁張啟凱堅持張啟凱堅持要經同意喔才能動之喔那個副總長欸張啟凱兄啊"},{"start":6180.253,"end":6192.079,"text":"總整會期還有委員會來解讀這個事情嗎?不然你三個來,你三個內容你都不審嗎?你在立法院這麼久,我在立法院跑線這麼久,以前都沒親我同意才能懂。"},{"start":6196.399,"end":6209.302,"text":"統一你要去什麼時候可以統一各位黨團幹部我想一下第三條條我們已經確定檢列一千萬這一點沒問題現在第四十三案我來嘗試性做個總結我們凍結兩議員提書面報告大家沒意見經統一後死的凍之書面報告因為統一的時候你"},{"start":6221.178,"end":6240.911,"text":"你知道明年幾月份才能夠去排這個結婚案嗎?不可能嘛。當期改委員堅持要加新同意後使得動之?一共同意啊。"},{"start":6242.342,"end":6268.658,"text":"他同意就好了,要給他張委員同意啦,你懂我啦。不要來我們這裡報告啦,這樣啦。張委員同意。沒有,那個就報告,沒有時間啦,真的沒有時間啦。沒有時間啦,沒有時間。蛤?因為不可能排這個,這個會期沒有時間的,下個會期不知道什麼時候才在委員會再排。"},{"start":6270.748,"end":6272.49,"text":"我們不可以做這樣的決議,今天要共識的,這不能這樣做的。"},{"start":6299.246,"end":6326.703,"text":"我想就提書面報告,之後有問題我們再追蹤,這樣好嗎?好。章祺幹委員堅持要今同以後始得動之。柯總召你當時什麼時候開始?明年幾...下會是什麼時候開始?然後再委會,到議會,明年下半年去了啊?啊?你要總實行完畢以後才處理到議會要處理,明年下半年去了"},{"start":6327.697,"end":6342.1,"text":"這個當然實際一點好不好?好不好直接簡略阿?直接簡略兩議就是凍結兩議啦,就凍結兩議嘛,然後就送報告嘛"},{"start":6357.008,"end":6384.169,"text":"好,送報告,送書面報告嘛。其實,那我是分享一下我的觀點,我也許沒有這個幾位資深,但是就我九年審預算的經驗,通常審預算就這樣,你凍結就是不管是送書面報告或是做專案報告,就是送來後使得凍值。我真的沒有看過經同意後使得凍值。就是說我只是在分享過去的經驗。"},{"start":6387.732,"end":6406.629,"text":"各位黨的幹部我們經過溝通我們第四十三案直接檢列兩億元好不好好大家都沒意見好我們第四十三案第三十六案檢列一千萬元四十三案檢列直接檢列兩億元好謝謝中油公司請回謝謝我們休息十分鐘謝謝各位練習休息一下"},{"start":6969.282,"end":6971.603,"text":"臺灣電力公司的曾董事長,歡迎您請坐。"},{"start":6985.086,"end":7009.412,"text":"我們第六十二項台灣民眾黨黨團黃國昌總召提議簡列百分之五十四千五百萬黃國昌總召請上一次針對這個預算提案我們已經做了充分的說明就是說以目前台電公司經營的狀況來講那如果已經都虧損連連"},{"start":7015.782,"end":7043.673,"text":"已經都虧損連連那要漲電費然後還要政府去撥補還花了這麼多錢去搞媒體宣傳那進一步去看甚至有像給那種親綠媒體的人像周玉蔻這樣子的標案然後這整個點擊率根本慘不忍睹還是用限制型標案的方式弄我諮詢完了以後收到非常多的反饋"},{"start":7044.977,"end":7068.653,"text":"很多人都覺得很憤怒錢不應該是這樣子花的上次台電有說明說明說他們錢很多錢都花了花了也沒有辦法所以我就麻煩他們錢到底花到哪裡去一樣一樣列出來給大家看"},{"start":7069.744,"end":7096.485,"text":"不管是凍結還是檢列某個程度上面除了幫納稅人把關以外也希望提醒台電公司可以特別注意錢不是這樣子花的當然他們會來列表來給我以後我大概做了整體上面的觀察跟分析提供兩點給台電公司做參考"},{"start":7097.757,"end":7126.369,"text":"這四千五百萬這些所謂的媒體、廣告、宣傳的費用第一個大宗的是在電視節目上面投放一些廣告這個廣告我們大概可以把它分成三大類第一大類是節電其實節電這件事情老實說不用在媒體上面廣告最好的廣告就是每一個人每個月所收到的帳單"},{"start":7127.873,"end":7149.392,"text":"收到帳單就會痛了收到帳單就會痛了那是最好的廣告第二個部分還有企業形象台電公司整體上面的企業形象我相信絕大多數的納稅人心裡面也都很清楚整體出來的企業形象就是不斷的虧損經營不善"},{"start":7152.87,"end":7178.319,"text":"然後要立法院要國庫這邊撥補嘛要漲電費嘛那第三個部分是節能減碳節能減碳中火的胎盤這麼高靠媒體打廣告有辦法解決問題嗎拉回來就我們提案的部分上一次具體的講是說什麼具體的講是好像"},{"start":7180.449,"end":7180.97,"text":"四千五百萬嘛"},{"start":7207.179,"end":7222.557,"text":"你們到目前為止用了三千六百萬,剩下沒有用到的預算是八百二十九萬一千三百九十九元嘛。我應該沒有理解錯嘛,現在已經到十二月了嘛。"},{"start":7223.524,"end":7224.765,"text":"臺電曾董事長請表達意見"},{"start":7246.155,"end":7246.635,"text":"六十八案"},{"start":7276.195,"end":7276.335,"text":"謝龍介、謝偉本黨團的意見"},{"start":7295.289,"end":7310.748,"text":"因為本案已經併這個七十六案到八十二案了因為我們這個凍結百分之十之前本黨團有支持民眾黨黃總召所提案檢列兩百五十億"},{"start":7311.989,"end":7323.765,"text":"那既然臺電已經同意減費250億,那本案呢,就並案處理,所以本案就已經算撤換。"},{"start":7331.149,"end":7341.837,"text":"記事案經台電跟本黨團溝通以後,原本凍結10%的部分,現在同意改成凍結1%。從10%改1%,好不好?"},{"start":7355.433,"end":7377.302,"text":"國民黨團同意凍結百分之一,曾董事長請表達意見。好,建表同意。好,謝謝。各位黨團幹部有沒有意見?沒有意見的話我們凍結百分之一。好,同意。好,第105案主決經過溝通之後文字再修正。我們就通過。好。欸,沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有。這個,抱歉院長。好,請。105案。"},{"start":7385.077,"end":7402.93,"text":"現在黨團就是說一百…照本案的文字齁,上次提案的文字,經保留後的文字,如果台電沒有辦法同意的話,我們就交院會表決。"},{"start":7404.605,"end":7427.845,"text":"不是,提案委員有提修正案嘛,那台電同意就好了嘛。這邊有一個叫溝通後文字在修正。對,因為這個案子我們收到訊息好像是提案委員對於修正文字是同意的。不是,呃,跟黨團齁,因為黃建豪委員有些意見跟黨團溝通了以後,"},{"start":7429.326,"end":7445.219,"text":"就原提案文字原提案文字不是修正會的文字原提案文字不做再做修正不再做修正照原來提案文字如果台電有意見的話我們就交院會"},{"start":7447.07,"end":7467.947,"text":"換句話說,文字在修正這段就取消了,恢復到原來的,原決議,原文字就對了。副總長,副總長這邊可不可以表達一下...副總長等一下,副總長你們原提案內容先講個平方來好不好?是什麼意思啊?那個,那個,是不是請宣讀一下好不好?"},{"start":7469.211,"end":7474.657,"text":"讓那個柯總召平胖解了解一下啦"},{"start":7478.379,"end":7499.88,"text":"建於台電公司臺中火力發電廠為全球第四大火力發電廠,同時也是全國最大碳排放污染最高之電廠。為將第一電廠燃煤機組碳排放污染,政府積極推動碳排較低之燃氣機組,取代高碳排之燃煤機組。"},{"start":7501.281,"end":7510.547,"text":"經查中火現有燃煤機組10部,共提供550萬千瓦裝置容量。現有燃氣機組加上計畫於113年進入環評審查第二期興建之燃氣機組,裝置容量可達810萬千瓦。燃氣機組裝置容量已經遠超過現有燃煤機組興建燃氣機組之目的,因為減少電廠使用燃煤排放之污染。"},{"start":7529.58,"end":7557.183,"text":"原要求臺電應承諾未來興建一座燃氣機組及拆除兩座燃煤機組,並就未來臺中火力發電廠燃煤機組之拆除計畫,於一個月內提出書面報告於立法院經濟委員會。宣讀完畢。還是修正夠的比較好啦。這個不好啦,要修正夠的比較好。"},{"start":7561.451,"end":7562.132,"text":"不是這樣的問題這個請台電表示意見好不好"},{"start":7570.2,"end":7593.1,"text":"跟委員報告就是其實那個要承諾未來興建一座燃氣就要拆兩座燃煤,這個會影響供電,因為包括用電的需求等等這些都會有一定程度的影響。那我想說這個案子我昨天還有親自去跟黃委員再說明一次,原來我們同仁協去的時候就已經把這文字講得很清楚,就是針對說"},{"start":7595.602,"end":7618.341,"text":"有沒有可能拆一部有沒有可能建一部拆兩部以及未來整個發展我們怎麼做要把報告這兩個主題要寫清楚來提出書面報告那我們本來是答應了這一個案子我們是答應了這一個案子那昨天黃委員說那如果是只是寫報告不然你就具體承諾你的一二號機什麼時候拆三四號機什麼時候拆"},{"start":7619.702,"end":7641.205,"text":"所以我們就寫了一個2026最慢2026的時候會啟動拆12號機2031會啟動拆30號機我們是把我們一定會承諾做的事具體寫成這個提案所以委員要求我們也同意所以我們今天才有這個修正的文字"},{"start":7641.718,"end":7642.939,"text":"現在的修正文字是更具體"},{"start":7660.453,"end":7679.695,"text":"臺電承諾了它在何年,2026年以及2031年分別要啟動拆除一二號機跟三四號機,就立委監督的角度覺得其實是更明確,更容易方便我們監督的。所以就實質面來講,這樣子的修正文字其實是遠優於原始的文字。"},{"start":7680.556,"end":7706.193,"text":"那程序面上呢我也要發表一下因為我們手上拿到的這個資料報告院長上面有提案委員黃建豪委員的簽名2024年12月10號正如同我們曾董事長說的昨天去跟提案委員做說明也獲得提案委員的簽字同意所以這個簽字同意是提案委員"},{"start":7708.032,"end":7708.352,"text":"副總召請發言"},{"start":7729.898,"end":7744.066,"text":"我想剛剛跟柯總召大概有溝通啦。雖然我們兩個都老花,但是剛剛很認真地看了以後。我想柯總召也沒有太多意見。就是照剛剛宣讀的內容,請台電在一個月內把相關的報告送到立法院經濟委員會。"},{"start":7756.172,"end":7756.352,"text":"請他們提報告來,有這麼嚴重嗎?"},{"start":7777.082,"end":7779.486,"text":"委員長報告11月27號的時候協商總統同樣有講到這有斷句、逗點的問題就是他是先承諾了建一部、拆兩部"},{"start":7790.869,"end":7816.088,"text":"這個要承諾然後後面的就長期規劃寫報告這個文藝是這樣這會有歧義如果說只是我們去評估蓋一部燃氣拆兩部行不行交書面報告那這台電當然可同意可是這個文字上面是有解釋上面不同了所以11月27號院長主持會有特別說這一點讓我容我去跟黃委員再報告一次"},{"start":7816.869,"end":7828.147,"text":"所以這一案保留了。那今天我們去,昨天我們跑去跟,我們有約到黃偉文時間,跟他說明了。我說,承諾未來全部都這樣做,我做不到。"},{"start":7829.195,"end":7845.545,"text":"但是整個評估可以猜的我會具體在這邊做承諾所以才會有那個2026一二號機2031三四號機這樣子的承諾差別在這個地方副總召那曾總統所報告的你希望他所報告的內容被人文字化一個月之內那個院長做說明一個這個各黨負責人其實我覺得台電不要太驚慌你就把報告送來"},{"start":7860.196,"end":7860.236,"text":"主席"},{"start":7881.085,"end":7895.353,"text":"嚴格那你的段距離是怎麼解釋那你個人的看法好現在就你要不要送報告就這麼簡單報告我們會送我們那就結論就好了就這樣就好了這個這個腦袋轉一下一斤棉花一斤鐵的事情就OK啊一樣重啊就把送個報告來這個"},{"start":7896.494,"end":7913.845,"text":"但是我想立法院的文字寫成這樣,我到時候的事後解釋我不會。那可以文字濁修一下下嗎?濁修一下下嗎?把承諾改成評估好不好?不是不是,你們不能承諾是不是?不是嘛,是說那個拆除一座新建一座,拆除兩座藍莓不行嗎?"},{"start":7915,"end":7936.619,"text":"前半段 平估 我的意思是說實質上 台電應平估這樣 台電能不能承諾未來新建一座燃氣 它不能做 不能 它做不到就對了 所以它沒有辦法 OK 它沒有辦法做到 所以才說是平估好不好 那平估 那它都已經平估過了 它怎麼已經說 平估這件事情的可行性 然後一個月內送報告 這樣"},{"start":7937.54,"end":7960.399,"text":"那個我跟你講這個他送報告根據他剛剛講可以做到那個部分他送報告來不是一樣嗎我一直一直說沒有問題送到文字來他剛剛講過他可以承諾建一個機組拆兩個機組他把人變文字化他是這個意思對不對對他講的你看他都點頭了所以董事長你就送來報告好不好這個沒有問題嘛這個絕對可以請台電照辦好你送報告來OK"},{"start":7962.06,"end":7963.981,"text":"現在本席發言,院長才是本席發言"},{"start":7983.854,"end":8006.463,"text":"我的文字表達如果有不清楚的地方我可以客戶來輔導講話如果聽不懂的話我再講一次現在兩個兩個給台電來我們很公平公正讓你來選擇第一個請你把報告提出來到經濟委員會第二個選擇是你不願意提那沒有關係我們就應會表決請說"},{"start":8013.135,"end":8016.256,"text":"大家在黨團根本都沒有意見了哈,好,我們第一,一本主決議我們溝通後,"},{"start":8038.983,"end":8043.105,"text":"按照主決議文字修正通過,請台電公司一個月之內送報告。"},{"start":8066.235,"end":8092.665,"text":"各位黨團幹部謝謝大家我們現在基金部分我們現在繼續針對113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位保留經濟委員會非營業部分保留案共七案我們進行協商包括一、國發會主管行政院國家發展基金兩案促進轉型正義基金一案二、農業部主管農業特別收入基金四案我們現在我們"},{"start":8094.184,"end":8117.019,"text":"介紹我們今天非常歡迎我們國家發展委員會劉主任委員劉主委你好請坐第二農業部陳部長請坐請坐請坐農業部陳部長到了嗎好那我們先進行國發會的我們第十二案"},{"start":8118.448,"end":8123.511,"text":"現在國民黨賴氏堡委員提簡列兩億五千萬請國民黨團請提意見好嗎?請謝謝院長對國發基金本黨提出在二十四億五千七百萬的相關的服務費用裡面還有融資成本等等"},{"start":8146.924,"end":8147.325,"text":"請劉主委表達,請"},{"start":8162.191,"end":8187.727,"text":"非常謝謝副總召的確我們是該要盡量尊潔我大概說明這個科目主要是要協助吸引台商回台灣投資然後也讓台商耕留台灣盡量在台灣投資不到海外投資第三個部分是協助中亞企業的投資與發展還有一個紓困加碼的手續費用"},{"start":8188.888,"end":8189.408,"text":"一、繼續研商．．．．．．．"},{"start":8214.986,"end":8215.266,"text":"這是我們的意見,謝謝"},{"start":8242.489,"end":8265.81,"text":"好,我們已經聽到劉主委報告了。台灣民眾黨團有寶貴意見嗎?沒有。好,民進黨團有寶貴意見嗎?沒有。那陳議政委員請。那照你所說的凍結的百分之五你們沒有使用嘛。那就應該是一億多嘛。對,是我們沒有使用。一億兩千五百萬嘛。那就把這個凍結的到時候,因為沒使用了,連底也用不到啦,罷了這個腳褲就可以了吧。是的。"},{"start":8267.108,"end":8269.049,"text":"主席,如果做成新的處理是檢列的話,那委員會審查的凍結就沒有喔?這要確認喔?這個就..."},{"start":8295.225,"end":8297.066,"text":"國發基金編國外旅費,我本來說全部剪裂"},{"start":8318.627,"end":8346.407,"text":"不過國發基金後來管理委員會他們有來一個說明那個說明是說是你們要派員出國參與投資人會議進行投資後的管理然後什麼國際創投如何如何感覺好像是要去參加會議要進行投資後的管理的需要不過看起來也不是真的那麼需要因為到年底你們的執行數只是48萬"},{"start":8348.82,"end":8375.761,"text":"對吧,我拿到的數字是這個樣子嘛編了240萬到年底預計執行到48萬那可能未來請國發基金在編列預算的時候何時編列會比較好啦今年也沒疫情嘛編了240萬那說要去國際上面什麼投資人會議代後管理現實上面到年底會花48萬嘛"},{"start":8377.622,"end":8402.37,"text":"可能國發基金未來在預算的編列上可能還是要貫積貫徹所謂臨機預算的精神因為我光看這個預算編列就很腐爛了嘛主計長坐在這邊應該也會認同這樣子的看法那是不是也這樣子就幫國發基金管理委員會幫他們衝高他們的執行率是不是簡略"},{"start":8403.567,"end":8431.309,"text":"就直接刪190萬,也不會影響到你們實際的需要,這樣不曉得主委是不是可以同意。這位請表達意見。非常謝謝委員的支持,的確我們也會深刻檢討。那我這邊也補充一下是我這邊因為上次我們會議因為這個預算有問題,所以我刪掉了三個,就是到美國的這個500的Startup的創投的會議跟ChanceLink的會議,還有一個AI Fund的會議。"},{"start":8432.21,"end":8433.111,"text":"劉志偉你居然同意喔?"},{"start":8459.839,"end":8467.431,"text":"我發表一下我的意見我是非常非常在乎國發基金帶著新創出國去闖天下"},{"start":8469.008,"end":8482.901,"text":"今年的執行率,上一次坐在這裏第一輪審查的時候因為我非常關心,然後我聽你們的回答今年之所以用的比較少是因為你們原本硬要要出去的那個會議是他們主辦方改成線上會議以至於你們原本要致用的旅費"},{"start":8490.808,"end":8510.543,"text":"是搭配主辦單位把那個forum conference改成線上以至於沒有之用不是說你們可以以後不再做帶著新創去打天下這些努力的工作那現在我們在處理的是ok很具體當然預算要核實"},{"start":8512.133,"end":8530.151,"text":"只是我覺得這個事情到底要講清楚說明白你一旦砍下去就等同於你以後的預算的執行那個母數就變少了這是你樂見的嘛好沒關係不會啦齁但是我還是到底講清楚說明白我作為監督立法委員"},{"start":8531.519,"end":8543.706,"text":"今年的狀況是特別特殊的因為國際的會議主辦方不是操控在我們手上所以我們的立場還是鼓勵要送新創團隊出去參加各種的"},{"start":8544.673,"end":8569.527,"text":"不管是competition不管是所有的招商我過去在教科文我再支持國科會帶團出去也不過了我們的新創就是要出去打世界盃的所以你想清楚是可以競表同意嗎好我個人想替你們再爭取一點那你如果還是覺得競表同意那我也尊重但我必須做成記錄OK"},{"start":8573.058,"end":8600.447,"text":"深呼吸,劉主委,深呼吸。這個我謝謝幹事長,的確我剛剛為什麼特別講我自己刪掉一百萬我們十二月的出國的費用,那我只是也是趁之機會表達我們的確有用的需求。我們今年帶團到東京,其實我們總共招攬了一千五百人次來參加我們的新創的活動,我們也帶了四十多團過去。"},{"start":8601.607,"end":8623.773,"text":"那我想說我事後是不是也跟黃國昌委員特別去報告一下我們大概做了哪些事情那我想會對未來會比較能夠理解啦那因為今年的確因為我自己我們把它刪掉了這三個重要的會議那所以我們的確這個用的就控制在我48萬就控制住了那但是"},{"start":8624.733,"end":8642.112,"text":"未來預算的部分我們覺得事要委員是對我們講的是非常有道理因為我們真的很需要很希望能夠幫助這些年輕人去打天下去到外面去打天下那我們也在美國跟日本我們都積極的在辦這些活動但我想應該要也去找委員去做一個說明"},{"start":8642.432,"end":8644.755,"text":"第三十八案,促轉基金,國民黨團提議簡列八千萬,請國民黨團表達意見。"},{"start":8669.716,"end":8680.642,"text":"這部分是有關於我們促轉各項轉型正義計畫會費捐助補助救濟的還有交流活動的費用"},{"start":8682.563,"end":8711.525,"text":"依據我國防會的資料所示到11月底它的執行率只有達到58%到年底可以達到93%中間的落差是因為部分案件辦理核銷所致所以我們扣除預計執行數後仍然大概有1034萬三千元可以減劣但是我們看到促轉會它於完成階段性任務後解散"},{"start":8712.466,"end":8740.026,"text":"所屬促轉基金歸國發會主管這顯非正辦而且基金的補助各部會多用於既有工作零由公務預算支出就可以了所以我們建議說提高簡列數到八千萬就請那個國發會你們這邊的相關的看法是怎麼樣簡列我們有空間但是你們的看法是要簡列多少"},{"start":8741.407,"end":8768.429,"text":"施耀委員,請吳施耀幹長,請劉主委準備。我想對於促轉基金,我認為我投入非常深。在2016那一屆,我們在修促轉條例。那促轉條例原始設定促轉基金的用途是,如果有一些不當黨產的收藏的費用,要用在哪裡?一開始的設定是長照跟社福。"},{"start":8769.702,"end":8788.958,"text":"我認為我們要學習國際的經驗不管是德國、波蘭、西班牙這些在做轉型正義的國家他們所成立的促轉所追討的不義的基金回來都會像德國他也用相當的比例在那個時候投入國家的經濟振興"},{"start":8790.359,"end":8790.819,"text":"．一、繼續研商一、繼續研商"},{"start":8809.904,"end":8834.594,"text":"把他應當除了設服長照之外應當做於人權教育以及文化推廣也很謝謝民進黨團支持我的提案最後我們也說服了國會多數我們最後通過所以說這一筆在講促轉基金的支用就完全是依附於促轉條例這有法律的授權而後當初有促轉會但促轉會他"},{"start":8836.517,"end":8864.985,"text":"任務結束之後就轉由國發會來接手促轉的相關業務所以促轉基金對於基金的用途這一筆向下我請市民委員看這一筆就是將各項轉型正義事項的政策研議執行多用於研究跟推廣教育之用然後我最在意的是它可以用在文化部門跟教育部門"},{"start":8866.175,"end":8870.363,"text":"我站在長期推動促轉用在文化跟教育他可以辦論壇他可以"},{"start":8873.444,"end":8876.385,"text":"昨天是世界人權日76週年,是台灣美麗島事件45週年。我們今天在處理促轉條例。"},{"start":8897.213,"end":8916.424,"text":"所以我非常在乎跟重視臺灣作為一個進步的人權自由的國家我們對促轉基金的使用即便它現在追長追討而來的金額不高但是讓每一筆珍貴的促轉在這片土地上發生過的"},{"start":8918.882,"end":8938.66,"text":"　︿　"},{"start":8938.88,"end":8957.996,"text":"作為一個民主典範的國家,我們可以承擔的社會責任跟世界的責任。我真的不希望這一筆預算被大筆的來砍掉、刪除。我再次說,我認為我萬萬不可接受"},{"start":8959.578,"end":8986.772,"text":"這個用在學術推廣、文化推廣、人權教育的項目被刪除。請市民委員、國民黨的朋友再思考一下。謝謝。謝謝吳世耀委員。接著請陳玉珍委員發言。蔡委員,對不起。蔡老闆,我們等劉隊發言完,您再發言。因為這樣比較,我們知道行政部門的看法。陳玉珍委員,請先發言。我本來還蠻支持國發會的。聽到吳世耀委員講完這些話以後,我覺得這些預算特別應該要刪。"},{"start":8988.633,"end":8992.375,"text":"國會主要目的是讓國家發展,讓國家社會更進步。那促轉,當初促進轉型政策是過去覺得做不好,"},{"start":9006.596,"end":9027.042,"text":"他們認為轉過來,如果一再的一個國家,一個進步的國家,如果重要的人物,尤其像我們國務院,或是重要的一些學者,每天都花心思在過去,什麼地方做得不好啊,怎麼樣,一直在回想過去,我們怎麼創造未來。國法會是在看未來的單位。"},{"start":9028.983,"end":9049.36,"text":"其他所說的這些不管是長照當然我也支持長照跟社福其他所謂什麼學術研究、文化都應該回歸到文化就回歸到文化部該編什麼預算編什麼預算學術界、教育部如果有相關預算科技界、科技部有相關的什麼預算就照應該本來什麼單位編什麼預算就往那邊編去"},{"start":9050.521,"end":9056.73,"text":"而不是一直在緬懷過去說就像我來自金門我們如果金門人每天緬懷過去說我38年我們受了多少苦47年四十幾發炮彈我們都不看未來我們怎麼發展國家要怎麼進步呢我們立法院是帶領國家前進的國發會也是"},{"start":9067.745,"end":9089.642,"text":"所以我尤其不能同意吳斯堯委員所說為了這個為了那個人權我們也支持我們也有人權基金會啊監察院也有相關的單位啊那請他們編列相關預算嘛回歸預算的這個正常使用那我當然是不支持這個所謂的促進轉型爭議第一個放在這個國發會底下完全是背道而馳的兩件事情兩個單位第二個我覺得這些預算如果"},{"start":9093.064,"end":9093.424,"text":"接下來我們請劉主委請說明"},{"start":9122.275,"end":9143.449,"text":"謝謝院長關於這筆錢的這個基金的用途因為他已經進入了組織條例他進到這裡來主要是因為我們對基金的管理比較有經驗那我們整個都是依據這個促轉條例第十一條之後的規定我們在實施這個事情那主要是今年因為"},{"start":9144.269,"end":9160.881,"text":"我們每一年就是都有提案那今年的提案呢其實上一次我們在決議的時候我記得王洪委員是希望我們把未來要實現的部分因為我們當時是說明年底會到93%的執行率那當時王洪委員希望我們把"},{"start":9161.661,"end":9178.046,"text":"未來還有哪些要付的錢跟結算的錢明細繳付出來然後來看合理性我們來做這個預算的同意與否那我們現在以遵照這個做法我們把我們所有的後面要做執行跟要付出的錢都整理出來"},{"start":9179.586,"end":9208.042,"text":"那我們也降幅在報告裡面那的確是到93%的質詢率啦那這個已經這個也是已經花下去的錢啦我想至於未來將來這些這個基金該由哪個單位來處理我想那是以後我們可以另外來一個法律的處理但是因為這是法律的問題那我們只能用法律來執行那是不是能考慮到這個錢已經用了如果把它砍掉的話呢這筆錢怎麼去付出去就會造成各單位的"},{"start":9208.522,"end":9234.698,"text":"劉主委現在已經到十二月今天是十一號嗎?你們已經花了大概這個數字我們諮詢率是多少?諮詢率百分之九十三剩餘數剩餘多少?只剩一千萬左右就減一千萬嘛稍微等一下稍微等一下我現在問一下諮詢率多少讓大家黨團幹部能理解這樣我們才好像好不好劉主委您稍等一下我們請蔡宜瑜署長請發言"},{"start":9236.887,"end":9261.042,"text":"如果我們以這個數面來說他執行率已經93那執行數一億三千三百萬所以看起來的話所剩是不多所以你要大筆這樣一砍事實上他很多執行這會變成未來在決算的時候會造成很大的麻煩然後第二個我在想剛剛也聽了陳玉珍委員的建議事實上"},{"start":9262.655,"end":9283.146,"text":"國民黨最近都在說台灣不走,台灣不要戒嚴。事實上轉型正義就在處理戒嚴時候的事情啊。我們沒有去檢討在戒嚴時候發生人權侵害,然後我們現在需要透過促進轉型正義,然後去把當時的一些文化的一個遺址,然後去幫他去做"},{"start":9284.166,"end":9301.917,"text":"這一些修復或者是過很多人權教育的事情,要怎樣去確保這些事不會再發生。所以我們都覺得這很矛盾啊。國民黨一方面有提案說戒嚴法要修法怎樣,然後一方面卻說轉型正義不要做了。"},{"start":9302.745,"end":9302.925,"text":"現在請張祺凱委員請發言"},{"start":9327.796,"end":9353.792,"text":"我聽了吳思耀委員跟玉儀的講話之後忍不住要講促轉基金促進轉型民進黨最近鬧了一個國際上的大笑話竟然在立法院的黨團裡面官方的這個官方網站去呼應去挺了這個韓韓的這個戒嚴從隱邪的角度視野去看這個戒嚴這個事情到現在小編也沒道歉立院黨團也沒道歉"},{"start":9355.58,"end":9381.01,"text":"賴清德總統是兼黨主席也不道歉這幾天還出現沈柏洋還跑出來去挺這個戒嚴你們這個叫轉型嗎?我上禮拜前幾天在國發會的預算的時候我就提了我凍結了二分之一包括要讓人民去認識那個整個戒嚴的狀況參與的人跟參觀的人根本就是績效不彰啊連續已經有四年"},{"start":9383.311,"end":9401.698,"text":"都沒有達到這個預算裡面說要多少人去參觀跟參與的所以我凍結二分之一的預算啊但是促成條例我覺得凍結八千萬算是客氣了剛講昨天不只是國際的這個人前日欸你們是美麗島事件四十五週年沒有美麗島有民進黨嗎"},{"start":9403.178,"end":9418.004,"text":"民進黨記得當初你們美麗島的前輩是怎麼流血流汗去爭取台灣的民主自由嗎?你們現在站出來挺這言,呼應這言,結果今天你們還一直一直在此言,在誇口,一直在講這個促轉。我覺得砍八千萬可能太少了,我覺得應該加碼砍更多一點。接下來吳世耀委員發言,傅克齊總統請準備。"},{"start":9425.103,"end":9448.685,"text":"就預算論預算齁,剛剛國發會有說明已經執行了九成三,所以沒有執行的部分就是一千零三十四萬。所以如果在野黨的委員想要來做預算的處理,可以務實上可以處理的就是一千萬左右的額度。所以思敏委員您剛剛的意思也是大概想釐清到底有多少錢沒有用。"},{"start":9449.406,"end":9450.027,"text":"請不要繼續在消費不存在的議題"},{"start":9466.549,"end":9481.076,"text":"不要再做這些炒作。我看到的促轉基金今年所執行的項目,我也跟陳毓貞委員報告,也有用於金門馬祖地區的政治暴力療癒。"},{"start":9482.938,"end":9500.06,"text":"創商工作群組的工作那大家關心的社福的部分建制政治受難者家屬照顧服務的據點那還有包括對於原住民族很多的政治受難的口述歷史的推廣活動"},{"start":9501.221,"end":9517.622,"text":"那在文化部門當然就是我們長期投入的檔案調查然後很多的影像記錄不易移植的復舊不易移植的保存那教育部門那對於轉型正義的教育的相關的場次的辦理"},{"start":9518.567,"end":9534.186,"text":"所以這些東西都是我們當初在審議轉型正義條例的時候那朝野的共識所以今天國發基金的這一筆預算是依據法律的授權那進行了當初法律授權的每一個相次"},{"start":9535.287,"end":9552.125,"text":"的內容從長照從社福從人權教育到文化的推廣所以支用的部分都是非常的合理正當所以就預算論預算好因為已經只剩下一千萬沒有用所以要刪減的話就只有這個部分可以處理"},{"start":9553.134,"end":9554.355,"text":"好,來做這樣子的聲明。"},{"start":9577.503,"end":9600.31,"text":"我想今天這個問題大家進來聊得這麼公開這就是我們民主國會該討論的事情一個民主國家在國會裡面什麼事都可以進行討論什麼事都可以進行研究但是最終啊民主國家就是啊在數人頭不是比拳頭啊"},{"start":9602.452,"end":9628.383,"text":"我想當年民進黨的先賢先略啊我想三十幾年前我就跟他們都很熟啊對現在的民進黨他們是一直在搖頭那謝謝剛剛張祺凱先生啊張委員能夠講得這麼清楚我想今天我們國會看到民進黨團正式啊這個把台灣的臉丟到整個全世界去啊在支持韓國的戒嚴支持韓國的戒嚴讓韓國人民有多麼憤怒"},{"start":9633.223,"end":9661.08,"text":"然後更誇張的是啊現在連國會議員啊出國來行銷地方的觀光現在要直航看起來啊連在外黨國會議員出門啊經過執政黨的同意啊不然斷責就用綠媒等等抹黑攻擊什麼時候去香港國會議員要跟要跟民進黨來報備"},{"start":9663.544,"end":9670.851,"text":"實在是有夠離譜誇張啦!中華民國那條法律規定國會議員去香港要跟民進黨報備的。再過來,這個民主的國會,為了民進黨要的案子,就來這裡討論。"},{"start":9684.727,"end":9700.177,"text":"博愛的案子經過所有的章程所有的意識規則討論完畢以後院長來召集兩次協商交院會助理院會助理民進黨就拳腳相向這叫民主進步嗎?現在我們國外已經戒嚴了是嗎?沒有民進黨同意就不能表決就叫拳腳相向就叫偷襲什麼叫偷襲啊?按照所有意識規則來進行什麼叫偷襲啊?"},{"start":9715.165,"end":9721.966,"text":"要三天五天前公告嗎?要民進黨同意才能做民主的處理嗎?這是我們的國會嗎?這是我們的國會嗎?這是很奇怪這是很奇怪更重要的是我們還是親手分計上禮拜五要處理選辦法我們還是到議場後面"},{"start":9745.919,"end":9773.146,"text":"跟院長報告完之後報告完之後院長才是很清楚一切依依是規則來辦理院長我有跟您報告你也這麼才智對不對然後在綠媒這邊講什麼院長不知道我們要突襲中華民國國會要做什麼事情一定要經過民進黨同意啊我們要依次規則走不行嗎"},{"start":9774.77,"end":9796.697,"text":"現在國安是已經戒嚴了是嗎?民進黨為什麼可以這麼蠻橫?為什麼可以這麼蠻橫?如果我們國安什麼事情都需要民進黨同意才能進行民主程序的話,那以後沒有什麼好協商的嘛。你要的就拿去。在外黨的你處處不尊重。"},{"start":9804,"end":9831.452,"text":"國家還有法治嗎?還有國會民主嗎?什麼叫民主進步?人的忍耐是有限度的。人民的忍耐是有限度的。不要因為綠媒網軍多,就在那邊天天造謠生非。如果這樣子的話,以後協商沒有什麼好協商的了。你們要的就拿去,不要的就在那邊鬧場,拳腳相向。以後國會議員,難道一定要先去"},{"start":9834.199,"end":9863.622,"text":"割斗班要訓練完成的當國會議員嗎?現在民進黨給全民的教育就是這樣啊。好,謝謝。好。謝謝院長。副總召跟林世民麻煩你把那個麥克風壓掉。麥譽貞委員發言,柯總召請準備。舉手。麥譽貞委員,你剛有舉手。不是,你剛才有舉手,現在你不發言,齁?好,那我們請柯總召。好,請。院長。今天大家自己知道不演什麼東西啊。簡是皇宗悔戚嘛,是位顛倒嘛。"},{"start":9865.485,"end":9890.712,"text":"這草是給它夾牌看的啊什麼時候民進黨的前黨要腳踢啊前頭向下啊其實這個照也不必再拗說民進黨是請戒嚴坦白講這個出轉條例是2017年12月5號也就在12月10號12月10號人前日先通過了提案委也就是我我代表民進黨黨團提案的這不是訓練版"},{"start":9893.84,"end":9916.753,"text":"整個轉型陣營大家都很清楚,今天台灣已經翻到這一頁來。比如說,歷史可以,歷史可以原諒,但不能忘記的。這是我們要走出過去那威權時期了。今天我要談的就是說,民進黨是反對戒嚴,然後在戒嚴底下沖撞成長的,當然我也是黨外人士。"},{"start":9917.754,"end":9932.52,"text":"民進黨不可能是贊成借的嘛,我們那個小朋友那個發文,那個發文寫得很清楚啊,哪一個文章寫的都贊成借的?"},{"start":9935.356,"end":9961.309,"text":"我們會發表聲明,所以今天不可以亂來,有的沒的,什麼什麼都可以請戒嚴。今天我們回到十四求是上面,大家在做表演都不好啦,人民眼睛會怎樣,但是今天我要講就是說,這是法定義務支出。法定義務支出剛才林世民講的,那剩下的一千萬,那我們刪就刪,那其他就不必大家在那補稅費啦。"},{"start":9962.329,"end":9962.869,"text":"陳義貞委員請發言,黃國昭總召請準備。"},{"start":9993.223,"end":10021.605,"text":"我想促進轉型正義,如果民黨真的心裡在意,不會轉型正義到今天還在只會扣帽子,然後只會挑起仇恨。那我們現在就預算,論預算。這個政府預算呢,要經過國會監督,國會審查後,通過後,實得動之嘛。那當然基金這種事後說用並決算是一種處理方式,不表示你們怎麼用,我們都可以同意。不表示你們怎麼用,都可以用生米煮成熟飯的方式讓我們同意。"},{"start":10022.669,"end":10042.469,"text":"這是基本的法律原則嘛但是當然你們打算怎麼樣到時候我們也是可以不同意啊我們代表民意來表示不同意啊所以我想我看了一下齁我事實上支持這個軍產生意的這個基金齁用在這個長照啊、社福啊這一些我是同意那個弱勢是需要照顧的"},{"start":10043.47,"end":10061.595,"text":"但是我看到你們的這個實際的在執行的預算裡頭,大部分呢用在開會啦,戲劇賞析啦,那個處理威權象徵啦,這個應該算是比如說到我們今晚要去處理蔣中正蔣公的銅像啦,已經補助33件商貸處理40億件啦,你們的很多東西用在這個啦,然後真正用在"},{"start":10068.444,"end":10084.155,"text":"我們承諾無私要委員所說的外國用在照顧、長照、社福後來是因為他說要求加這一些因為他的提案加了這些什麼教育、學者這些東西謝謝他的提醒我覺得這些東西我一定會提案幫他刪除"},{"start":10085.616,"end":10106.849,"text":"但是長照社會我倒是真的是支持但是我看到用到長照社會的事實上是非常的少所以我想請這個國發會是不是提供你們這個預算已經用了到底用在哪裡比例多少因為這個是雖然是依法支出但不表示我們同意你是這樣子你可以用在這個項目不同表示我同意你這樣用"},{"start":10107.93,"end":10129.557,"text":"這是兩件事,這個應該法律尤其很清楚嘛那是不是請國發會提供這個他到底用了比如說總共一億四千多萬嘛比如說,那我現在請問國發會主委一億四千多萬以後有多少比例用在長照跟社福呢?您知道嗎?可以回答嗎?沒關係,律師主委您就針對社會福利跟長照這一部分有多少比例呢?10%?20%?5%?3%?這基金怎樣使用呢?"},{"start":10140.945,"end":10161.04,"text":"有資料嗎?目前執行在長照跟社福的比例是多少?陳委員想了解。跟各位委員報告一下,長照社福這一塊,因為就像剛剛委員所提到的就是說,部會繳本預算,它跟所要執行的這個功能是相同的時候,"},{"start":10161.707,"end":10176.172,"text":"他在本預算裡面原則上從本預算去編列預算那長照事務這一塊其實在部會的本身的職長範圍裡面他會去編預算所以你們用的很少?多少呢?一趴?兩趴?或者沒有?或者你不知道?"},{"start":10179.453,"end":10206.489,"text":"這個我沒有細算過你不知道那你們今天來要我們過預算你不知道你預算用到哪裡去我要怎麼過你的預算沒有這個跟委員講的是長照跟社會對我覺得說你這個一億四千多萬嘛你已經用了照你們說已經九十三趴的你告訴我說你用了三趴還五趴或一千或是兩千萬用在長照社會我想了解一下這個預算的資用是什麼情形如果你要來求我們對不起讓我們請求我們來通過預算你總是要知道你用到哪我總是要知道你用到哪裡去嘛代表人民"},{"start":10207.469,"end":10208.33,"text":"各部會包括平復司法部法"},{"start":10225.298,"end":10238.71,"text":"我只問你長昭跟社福用了多少錢?一億四千萬裡頭到底用了一千萬還是兩千萬?三千萬還是五千萬?你告訴我答案就可以了。你如果不知道也可以說沒關係,你不知道嘛。我也不為安你現在回答我,沒關係。那我們就等到他知道了以後,不然我們就,他就是不知道嘛。那今天呢我們來審這個,不知道他們預算用到還去,到底怎麼來說服我勒?"},{"start":10249.819,"end":10266.244,"text":"陳委員他是說他花的預算這一部分裡面有關於他那個部分他不那麼清楚其他他們理解的那我問別的啊這裡面有用到內政部有用到交易部有用到法務部用了多少錢都不知道這樣都不知道預算用到哪裡去不知道"},{"start":10267.669,"end":10286.845,"text":"這是哪一位?這是主席嗎?還是?不是,我是檔案局。檔案局?你是檔案局負責?因為其實裡面按照促成條例它都有項目。我知道你按照項目用嘛,按照法律的項目用。你用到哪裡去嘛?你告訴我啊。跟委員報告一下,因為我們這裡面所提的資料裡面都有列出各部會所要執行的項目。"},{"start":10287.145,"end":10288.045,"text":"市長陳副局長,讓陳副局長知道,他手上現在有新的資料。"},{"start":10312.314,"end":10317.376,"text":"實際用在社福這一塊我沒有去加總,但是內政部的部分呢?社福"},{"start":10328.214,"end":10333.095,"text":"政府用的是威權處理象徵,這是社福嗎?你注意看"},{"start":10345.859,"end":10353.125,"text":"社會公正人士組成:「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算．一、繼續研商各黨推舉社會公正人士組成:「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案．一、繼續研商各黨提議．完整會議"},{"start":10368.827,"end":10385.474,"text":"你告訴我哪一個是社福?你看不懂?我看得懂?我現在問他他沒辦法回答嗎?我就請他回答他在執行的時候他不知道怎麼執行他可以這樣執行這叫依法執行嗎?"},{"start":10388.824,"end":10413.85,"text":"主席我覺得這個沒有辦法討論啦我想這個就不要協商了你用的時候你不知道你怎麼使用我問你啦我問你啦對家屬的照顧對受難者家屬的照顧是屬於船照還是社福當然是要問他們啊他們在執行預算你問他老計單位才知道可不可以這樣用嘛請問可不可以這樣用主席也知道你可以說他是船照也可以說他是社福啊那是你定義的我要問執行單位嘛沒問題那個陳一貞委員蔡議員你們先"},{"start":10414.851,"end":10422.25,"text":"執行單位告訴我你怎麼用錢用到哪裡去省預算就這最簡單的用多少錢用到哪裡你都回答不出來"},{"start":10424.369,"end":10429.47,"text":"委員我這邊來回答啦我們其實每一個我們給的每一個項目都有核准的都有預算對多少錢我現在我只能"},{"start":10453.516,"end":10454.739,"text":"我只是問你長照跟社會"},{"start":10456.514,"end":10482.643,"text":"你也不知道?不是,我知道,但是我們現在就舉個例子好了,衛福部有一個政治暴力創傷療癒照顧服務。對嘛,多少錢?這裡是五千,不是不是,五十萬。五十萬,對,你就回答數字給我就好了嘛,這個在衛福部裡頭,這個可能算在裡頭,有一個第二點嘛,因為用了一二三嘛,用了一個五十萬嘛,創傷療癒這個嘛,金門馬祖地區這個是不是,創傷療癒工作坊模式五十萬嘛,對不對?"},{"start":10483.763,"end":10486.345,"text":"跟委員報告一下,原住民、原住民族政治暴力串山療癒88.5萬"},{"start":10514,"end":10519.563,"text":"政治暴力串山療癒及照顧服務資訊系統240萬政治暴力串山療癒服務管理中心計畫98萬"},{"start":10531.33,"end":10548.41,"text":"政治暴力串山知情教育素材研發92.9萬政治受難者及家屬支持服務據點部分648萬金門馬祖政治暴力串山療癒需求及工作模式"},{"start":10549.757,"end":10560.442,"text":"這個探究這個部分是63.9萬。再來政治受難者及家屬支持服務據點擴增計劃這個部分109.8萬。再來政治暴力創傷...是不是我會後給委員...不是!你告訴我全部加起來多少錢?"},{"start":10568.746,"end":10586.34,"text":"全部加起來這邊是……年度這邊是……對,這些多少錢呢?三千四百七十二萬。三千多萬嘛,所以佔大概……我們很具體的討論嘛。抱歉抱歉是……沒有三千多萬。五千零二十萬。這個齁,第一個齁,這些東西哪一個算是長照啊?都是一些資訊齁,就你剛唸的齁。是。剛唸的是資訊嘛齁。工作坊啦齁。資訊系統啦齁。這個哪一個是長照啊?"},{"start":10601.277,"end":10626.784,"text":"哪一個是長照啊?長照和社福我最在乎了啊。委員是這樣子喔,這部分是社福的部分喔,那我們現在是講這些都是公開的,這是可申請的項目。我知道這是可申請的項目啊,我懂啊。但是要有長照業者來申請,我們參會委員會來核定。是是,所以在你們執行過程中沒有業者來申請喔?至少今年是沒有人來申請嘛,所以沒有達到這個效果嗎?"},{"start":10629.187,"end":10650.766,"text":"呃,不,這個是依照法令喔,依照……我知道,可申請相關跟有門難申請是兩件事,可以申請相關有這些,但是你們說過,剛剛也提到了,我聽得懂,說因為其他單位都先用他自己的公務預算嘛,沒有問題嘛,當然衛福有他的公務預算嘛,可能內政部、交易部都有他的公務預算,所以他們可能會先用他們的公務預算嘛,對不對?公務預算如果真的不足來跟你們申請嘛,沒錯吧?這樣講沒錯吧?"},{"start":10653.206,"end":10654.288,"text":"有需要的單位可以報告民間。"},{"start":10672.17,"end":10672.29,"text":"委員委員委員"},{"start":10690.623,"end":10691.764,"text":"委員還有一個時空背景我們是不是也說明一下因為長照跟社府這些放進來是今年才修訂的法令今年才修訂的才會有這個"},{"start":10716.904,"end":10741.301,"text":"我的建議是說這樣的基金與其存在不如把錢整個交給政府謝謝陳一貞委員發言特別跟各位黨團幹部報告現在時間已經接近5點半了那我在這裡要跟大家報告一下我們今天的寫商我們就在停留在這個38案然後我們就暫時告一段落明天我們繼續寫商時間在下午1點到2點我們在本會議室進行寫商這是第一點要跟大家"},{"start":10746.485,"end":10752.204,"text":"第二也是很重要一件事情跟大家報告一下明天司法院大法官的全院委員會最後一天"},{"start":10753.717,"end":10783.157,"text":"有關之前我們大法官同意權的協商結論有提到各黨團的書面詢問會總之後由被提名人答覆這些書面詢問及答覆資料我們就列入公報紀錄請問各黨團幹部能接受嗎?好,非常好那沒有意見我們就這樣處理那我們明天下午一點半再一次感謝各位列席的劉主委陳主席長還有陳部長謝謝各位列席的官員明天下午一點,一點鐘我們就在本會議室繼續協商謝謝大家祝福大家晚安"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}