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在場的委員先進列席政務機關首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長以及國發會劉主委和財政部莊部長卓院長 還有劉主委 還有莊副主委副主委今天請假 今天是副主委副主委代理"},{"start":55.752,"end":79.406,"text":"總委員好 院長好 部長好 副主委好我的標題是產業退稅有需求 調配勞力有方法緩對等關稅衝擊 政府應盡速執行好 請教院長外傳我們財經首長都留任 顯然他們的表現得到肯定院長是不是支持會做事的格遠"},{"start":80.336,"end":108.912,"text":"我需要會做事的支持是的不只是肯定而且是需要而且會支持很好來我們來看一下就在一個星期前我上次問到了還稅給中小企業財政部主動出擊還記得嗎8月12號我請教過院長說這些受到美國關稅影響他的市場是因為是美國的他受到的關稅衝擊我們把他過去這個產業進口在台灣的關稅我們退還給他院長是全力支持嗎"},{"start":110.189,"end":136.73,"text":"謝謝委員當地有提出這樣的建議來好 那麼財政部也主動出席了嘛 對不對也開始去進行規劃了嘛 是不是 部長是 跟委員報告我們知道委員很關切這個問題我們也跟經濟部來聯繫對於相關這樣因為受到美國對等關稅政策影響而受到衝擊的產業以及廠商它的一個狀況那以什麼樣的方式來給他們支持好 那我現在也要考一考我們國發會這是副主委"},{"start":137.406,"end":160.875,"text":"其實我們要做這個政策呢國發也很重要你看我們要精準的找到受衝擊的企業首先這個產業他應該是以美國市場為主剛剛就說了而且呢他在他的主要競爭對手關稅又相對比我們低比如說不是所有的企業出口企業都是我們的對象是不是這樣我要找出他出口市場是美國為主的其次我們要把他跟"},{"start":161.837,"end":184.14,"text":"他的美國的他的主要對手美國對他的關稅是如何副主委是不是這樣子我們要盤點哪些產業受衝擊是不是應該從這兩個方法目前我們所有對受衝擊產業的一些支持其實基本上都是對著剛剛委員說的好那我們來看一下舉例來講大家都說工具機手工具水五金重電跟塑膠製品那我們來看一下"},{"start":184.841,"end":193.789,"text":"工具機我們對美關稅24%我們的主要對手德國日本韓國都是15%顯然的工具機受到嚴重衝擊 卓院長是不是這樣"},{"start":195.243,"end":218.803,"text":"這個在我們評估當中確實是把它列為衝擊性大的產業另外我們來看一下手工具我們雖然是23.3但是越南跟我們一樣主要競爭對手中國比我們還高可能手工具沒那麼嚴重再來看水五金我們是22.6越南也是22.6中國也是比我們高或許水五金的壓力沒那麼大重電我們是22越南是15中國是57比我們高一個比我們低我們可能有影響"},{"start":219.503,"end":246.229,"text":"塑膠製品我們的主要競爭對手是中國59可是墨西哥跟我們差不多所以從這樣的看法來看是不是像工具機這樣的產業是我們優先要幫助的對象尤其是如果高階的可能我們的競爭力會更弱一點如果中階的我們還有個很好的競爭力如果我們對手是德國日本以外的國家的話我相信我們的產品優越性一定是可以有辦法跟他競爭的"},{"start":246.854,"end":256.823,"text":"好謝謝副主委考試過關我們請經濟部次長來補來接下來我們要問到一下沖退原料稅的政府分工副主委可以請為我們請次長好"},{"start":261.79,"end":289.942,"text":"那麼莊部長之前呢我們要財政部來處理這個事情但是報告院長前面呢要有產業別要有產發所先告訴我們說是哪些產業受到影響然後這些產業要國貿署去抓出說他這幾年來銷售美國的需求量是多少然後鎖定這些廠商之後以公司別我們再請財政部官務署去計算這個公司為單位他過去"},{"start":291.002,"end":318.014,"text":"這三年五年甚至十年台灣的政府跟他扣了多少進口關稅是不是用這個方式才能夠趕快的把這個事情執行莊部長是不是這樣委員報告就是說對於受影響的廠商確實是如剛剛產業署跟國貿署我們會把他會提資料給我們至於是不是從這個關稅的部分來退或者是以其他補助或支持方案來做那這個部分我們後續會再來做處理"},{"start":319.008,"end":347.106,"text":"那現在進入到哪裡了是不是已經調查出來了這個部分跟我們報告一下我們在8月21號已經把相關的這些資訊已經給財政部那我想財政部他們現在正在核算當中總院長8月21號求在財政部這邊了財政部也說要等到大院我們行政院做出最後的決定所以請院長趕快決定你說權力支持資料在財政部這邊是不是趕快可以核定這樣的一個出口退稅的一個"},{"start":348.567,"end":363.582,"text":"請莊部長能夠請同仁能夠儘速的 詳實的來將內容與檢查如果符合到所有的條件 規則 標準的話那行政院依照支持產業的這樣的原則跟委員日前的建議我們全盤的來考量實施"},{"start":364.226,"end":382.237,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼莊部長請回我現在請農業部陳部長好 那麼繼續 卓院長我們剛剛說沖退原料稅以製造業為對象我們看到這個圖很清楚其實製造業大概在這一波受到衝擊最大的除了受到美國關稅影響我們是不是還可以看到"},{"start":383.037,"end":405.309,"text":"還會造成他減班勞動力的閒置我們來看一下我們看到報紙說每對台客20%的關稅中部產業有減單減班裁員那這裡訂單下滑減班休息的包括電子資訊產業包括運輸工具包括機械包括鋼鐵金屬經濟部次長是不是這樣子這些產業是可能會遇到減班休息的衝擊"},{"start":407.005,"end":433.413,"text":"好來那麼這種情況之下呢我要跟院長說那遇到的減班衝擊其實勞動部長要起來的其實我想他坐在台下我要誇獎他比較不會尷尬來製造業減班休息勞工生計怎麼辦我們看到了如果是本土勞工勞動部推出了強化雇用安定措施這也是過去疫情期間我們所說到的這幾個產業如果說原來的本土勞工他如果是月領4萬"},{"start":434.733,"end":454.102,"text":"他因為呢 減班休息他只能領最低工資28,590但是他這就念了薪資差額28,000跟40,000這差額的12,000勞動部呢 用目前的就業安定給他七成的補貼他可以補多少12,000的七成就是8,400院長支持勞動部這樣做吧"},{"start":454.861,"end":483.126,"text":"是勞動部一直這樣對於勞工安定就業一貫有的方式那我希望他徹底的去執行是的 為什麼沒有請勞動部長來起來因為他都做好了 都做對了所以就不勞他上來了好 但是外籍廠工沒有這個優待外籍廠工如果減班休息他最多就是領28,590元經濟部是不是這樣子是 你說了知道嗎那這樣會什麼情況呢這些外籍的移工廠工他可能會怎樣"},{"start":483.902,"end":508.971,"text":"他會因為他來台灣就要賺錢嘛他賺不到4萬塊賺不到3萬5只能領2萬8他就另外找地方去嘛好那另一方面這個勞動力他出現了一個不穩定但是反過來看我們看看移工會跟寶桃串聯落跑打工院長你知道什麼是寶桃嗎部長 寶石桃的人對寶石桃的人寶石桃你剛才說什麼叫做我們增開寶桃"},{"start":511.599,"end":534.927,"text":"有時候一些失聯的移工他會透過特定的人然後去安排他做一些事情你說的失聯的移工啦就是工廠 他進來工廠他不愛做啦他就漏跑啦 老闆把這些人扣扣的現在中部 南島在採茶 他就去搬茶葉茶葉搬完之後 他就要來 要來幫他種西瓜 幫他採 摘鳳梨"},{"start":536.786,"end":554.883,"text":"院長知道吧農務的這些移工有它的季節性跟收產的這個我們看到過去在2025年就是今年移工一到機場就整個被接走另外有的是怎樣在2018年甚至發生的整個都不見了好 那我們來看一下可是這些移工投入的這些產業"},{"start":556.144,"end":569.837,"text":"不只是農業可是農業有沒有需求部長你們可以告訴我們院長我們農業目前雖然有農業移工的作為但是實質上使用的移工都是合法引進的嗎"},{"start":571.389,"end":596.024,"text":"我跟委員報告就是謝謝勞動部的一個協助我們農業的移工大概有兩萬名然後合法的移工進來就是合配有兩萬名大概現在目前用了一萬六千多名那你覺得農業部門只有用合法的移工嗎不可諱言的還有部分的這些失聯的移工投入到農業領域做這些季節性的這些打工其實沒有失聯的移工也在打黑工啦"},{"start":596.929,"end":626.024,"text":"我們屏東農村喔 很多工廠喔他移工喔 下班之後呢 他要去打工啦我們 民房喔 在吃米啦米是歐 米農啦 米農都要摘去五六點不停耕 米多兩兩就去歐啦都是附近工廠 種植附近工廠的移工喔 他們就去五點五就去歐啊歐到七點五 早上吃菜 回去上班有的是晚上 下班後 再來拍工有的是白天禮拜再來拍工農業部部長 你知道這個情況嗎"},{"start":628.324,"end":649.054,"text":"為什麼這個情況一直存在著因為有需要我們往下看其實不只是災後的復原我們還往下看其實現在談的是全職轉廠跟就近兼差其實依照目前我們的勞動法令我這個廠商合法引進的移工只能夠使用我不能說我現在工廠停班休息 減班休息我就給別人用"},{"start":650.856,"end":669.926,"text":"市長你知道我不能因為我的產業我現在訂單少了嘛我引進的移工不適途者嘛我就稍後把人家去加班可以嗎 不可以產業是不可以的 為什麼因為你全職移轉未來會成什麼情況等到我訂單回來了我就要人借 覺得借的回來他就浪費了嘛"},{"start":670.606,"end":680.555,"text":"所以目前我們工業部門 製造部門最擔心什麼我減單休息之後 減班休息之後我的移工跑掉了等到我的訂單回來了 我要再訂車"},{"start":681.857,"end":706.442,"text":"正常的時候 勞動部也要給他啊但是這裡已經漏跑的這個移工他就轉入黑市變成是台灣我們撒不掉 摸不掉的一個移工這是我們不希望的所以怎麼做呢其實如果說不要讓他整場移轉讓他就近兼差他就是附近的農場他沒有上班的時間 他去打工我請教一下 農家部長你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":707.955,"end":736.401,"text":"我們曾經就這個議題就正常的曾經問了幾個企業就是他們週休二是希望他們的員工休息如果他來打工的時候他們也擔心他們打工的時候如果太累的時候第二天上班可能會精神不濟這第一個第二個部分就是說如果要合法去做這些休息的話那相對的相關的規定也要做修正很好就是後面如果要合法的話就規定要修正為什麼我覺得農業部門可以這樣來做呢"},{"start":736.957,"end":749.236,"text":"因為他不是full time不是每天8小時的他是什麼 藍山的工程你一天來我一小時 兩小時 累輸加班不然就是你每個禮拜你不出去玩你來我們家幫我們弄一些做sheet"},{"start":750.489,"end":773.484,"text":"他因為農場的工作呢是零工有季節性有小規模有地點分散他很難申請完整的像工廠工人這樣的農業移工來做所以這種情況在我們往下看所以呢如果原僱主受到官司衝擊影響他減班休息你與其讓這些移工跑掉跑去其他沒有資格引進移工的工廠做非法的工作全職的移轉"},{"start":774.204,"end":789.464,"text":"不如你是不是讓他本來週休兩天週工作五天他現在週工作兩天另外的三天他可以透過一些機制到附近的農盲去幫忙院長你覺得這樣的方法有沒有一個可以考慮的評估"},{"start":791.949,"end":810.889,"text":"那個跟周委員報告因為確實這個移工如果要跨雇主或跨業來去工作那尤其是他本身他不是一個合意的解約的狀況的話這涉及到的制度上面的面向就比較因為勞動部現在我要打斷就是勞動部他的思維還是製造業工業的思維"},{"start":812.11,"end":828.601,"text":"農業要請全職的移工的需求量不高除非你是農場、牧場我請五個、我請四個我整天一年三百六十五天都需要很多是季節性的所以為什麼農業移工不太好用但是這種兼差來打工的很好他有沒有轉移雇主 沒有"},{"start":829.461,"end":856.619,"text":"僱主還是原來工廠的僱主僱主同意之下他到鄰近的去兼差打工這個是有討論空間的而且如果你不給他一個合法的管道他就只能繞跑直接去打黑工這反而不是我們樂見的我現在已經請農業部去評估是不是可以用農會來出面農會過去是扮演農業移工的引進單位但是農會不好用但是如果你說原僱主因為減班休息他的移工他還是讓大工"},{"start":857.64,"end":871.644,"text":"吃頭雞啊所有的負擔都工廠來負擔他現在去把旁邊的農場做一些洗頭是不是這個行政成本你這農場你要做分拓要什麼人來做農民沒辦法做行政要從農會來協助這個行政工程把這工廠因為用不到釋出的這個勞動力他要分拓保險費要分拓大學吃飯這個你構思你不是新的構思你建的這個農場你來分拓農會來衝動"},{"start":888.3,"end":911.127,"text":"農業部如果這個方法你們有沒有把握可以做到把這些停班 減班休息的工廠移工在他們休息的期間讓農業部門來做適當的使用你們有沒有辦法做好管理我跟委員報告現在農會的部分就有從事我們農業部門他是全職的農業移工 沒好用啦"},{"start":912.947,"end":915.169,"text":"所以你們要很清楚這我告訴院長最後我告訴你這問題這些法令是勞動部遇到的救護法的規範"},{"start":930.464,"end":954.744,"text":"他是原則禁止例外許可例外許可要行政部門開放再往下看全職移工沒有僱主轉換的問題只是原僱主同意他的移工去兼工兼差往下看那麼救福法的第7條這些條件都是可以去強化的所以最後的結論請院長承諾我們針對有需求的農業部門的需求我們用方法讓這些受產業衝擊的"},{"start":956.605,"end":960.489,"text":"義工可以趕快的去執行院長可不可以給個承諾來研究辦理"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":843,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時40分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請卓院長、國發會劉主委及財政部莊部長。"],["主席：國發會劉主委請假，今天是由副主委代理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、部長好、副主委好。我的標題是「產業退稅有需求，調配勞力有方法，緩對等關稅衝擊，政府應盡速執行」。請教院長，外傳財經首長都留任，顯然他們的表現得到肯定，院長是不是支持會做事的閣員？"],["卓院長榮泰：我需要會做事的成員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只是肯定，而且是需要，而且會支持，很好。就在一個星期前，我上次問到了還稅給中小企業，財政部主動出擊，還記得嗎？8月12號我請教過院長，說這些受到美國關稅影響的廠商，因為他的市場是在美國的，他受到關稅衝擊，所以我們把過去這個產業在臺灣進口原料的關稅退還給他，院長是全力支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員當天提出這樣的建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，財政部也主動出擊了，對不對？也開始去進行規劃了，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，我們知道委員很關切這個問題，我們也跟經濟部聯繫，對於因為受到美國不對等關稅政策影響而受到衝擊的產業以及廠商的狀況，以什麼樣的方式來給他們支持……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，那我現在也要考一考國發會副主委，其實我們要做這個政策，國發會也很重要，你看我們要精準地找到受衝擊的企業，首先這個產業應該是以美國市場為主，我剛剛就說了，而且它的主要競爭對手關稅又相對比我們低，所以並不是所有出口企業都是我們的對象，是不是這樣？我們要找出出口市場是以美國為主的，其次我們要找出美國對其主要對手的關稅是如何，副主委，是不是這樣？我們要盤點哪些產業受衝擊，是不是應該用這兩個方法？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，目前我們所有對受衝擊產業的一些支持，其實基本上都是對準剛剛委員所說的那些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，舉例來講，大家都在說工具機、手工具、水五金、重電跟塑膠製品，那我們來看一下工具機，我們對美關稅24%，我們的主要對手包括德國、日本、韓國都是15%，顯然工具機受到嚴重衝擊，請問卓院長是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：在我們的評估當中，確實是把它列為衝擊性大的產業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外我們來看一下手工具，我們的稅率雖然是23.3%，但是越南跟我們一樣，主要競爭對手中國比我們還高，可能手工具的狀況沒那麼嚴重。再來看水五金，我們的稅率是22.6%，越南也是22.6%，中國則是比我們高，或許水五金的壓力沒那麼大。重電我們的稅率是22%，越南是15%，中國是57%，所以是一個比我們高、一個比我們低，對我們可能會有影響。再看到塑膠製品，雖然我們的主要競爭對手中國的稅率是59%，可是墨西哥跟我們差不多。從這樣的狀況來看，像工具機這樣的產業是不是我們優先要幫助的對象？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，尤其如果是高階的，可能我們的競爭力會更弱一點，如果中階的我們還有很好的競爭力，如果我們的對手是德國、日本以外的國家的話，我相信我們的產品優越性一定是有辦法跟他競爭的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝副主委考試過關，我們請經濟部次長來遞補，接下來我要問一下沖退原料稅的政府分工，副主委可以請回，我們請次長。","莊部長，之前我們要財政部來處理這件事情，但是我要報告院長，前面要有產業別，要由產發署先告訴我們是哪些產業受到影響，這些產業要由國貿署去抓出它這幾年來銷售美國的需求量是多少，然後鎖定這些廠商之後，以公司別，我們再請財政部關務署去計算，以這個公司為單位，過去這三年、五年，甚至十年，臺灣政府跟它扣了多少進口關稅，是不是用這個方式才能夠趕快把這個事情執行？莊部長，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，對於受影響的廠商，確實是如剛剛所說，產業署跟國貿署會提資料給我們，至於是不是從關稅的部分退，或者是以其他補助或支持方案來做，這個部分我們後續會再來做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。現在進入到哪裡了？是不是已經調查出來了？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分經濟部……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告一下，我們在8月21號已經把相關資訊給財政部，我想財政部他們現在正在核算當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：卓院長，8月21號球在財政部這邊了，財政部也說要等到行政院做出最後決定，所以請院長趕快決定，你說全力支持，資料在財政部這邊，是不是趕快可以核定這樣一個出口退稅的作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：請莊部長能夠請同仁儘速詳實地將內容檢查，如果符合所有條件、標準的話，行政院依照支持產業這樣的原則跟委員日前的建議，我們全盤來考量實施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。莊部長，請回。現在請農業部陳部長。","卓院長，我們剛剛說沖退原料稅以製造業為對象，我們看到這個圖很清楚，其實製造業大概是在這一波受到衝擊最大的，除了受到美國關稅影響，我們是不是可以看到還會造成減班勞動力閒置，我們來看一下。我們看到報紙說，美對臺課20%關稅，中部產業憂減單、減班、裁員，這裡提到訂單下滑、減班休息的包括電子資訊產業、運輸工具、機械、鋼鐵金屬，經濟部次長，是不是這樣子？這些產業可能會遇到減班休息的衝擊？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在這種情況之下，我要跟院長說，遇到減班衝擊，勞動部長要起來了，其實他坐在臺下，我要誇獎他比較不會尷尬。製造業減班休息，勞工生計怎麼辦？我們看到了，如果是本土勞工，勞動部推出強化僱用安定措施，這也是過去疫情期間我們所說的，這幾個產業，如果是本土勞工原本是月領4萬，因為減班休息，他只能領最低工資2萬8,590元，這個2萬8,000元跟4萬元之間的薪資差額1萬2,000元，勞動部用目前的就業安定給予七成補貼，可以補多少？1萬2,000元的七成就是8,400元，院長支持勞動部這樣做吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是勞動部一向對於勞工安定就業一貫有的方式，我希望它澈底執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我為什麼沒有請勞動部長起來？因為他都做好了、都做對了，所以就不勞他上來了！但是外籍廠工沒有這個優待，外籍廠工如果減班休息，最多就是領28,590元，經濟部，是不是這樣子？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣會有什麼情況呢？這些外籍移工、廠工可能會怎樣？因為來臺灣就是要賺錢，他賺不到4萬塊、賺不到3萬5，只能領2萬8，他就另外找地方去嘛！另一方面，勞動力就出現了一個不穩定。但是反過來我們看看，移工會跟「貿頭」串聯落跑打工，院長，你知道什麼是「貿頭」嗎？部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：「貿穡頭」的人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，「貿穡頭」的人，部長，你告訴院長什麼是我們鄉下的「貿頭」。"],["陳部長駿季：鄉下的「貿頭」就是有時候一些失聯的移工會透過特定的人安排他去做一些事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說的失聯的移工，就是他進去工廠，但他不要做，他就落跑了，「貿頭」就把這些人找一找，現在中部南投在採茶，他們就去採茶葉，茶葉採完再去哪裡種西瓜、哪裡栽鳳梨，院長知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是農務移工有它的季節性跟收成的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。所以我們看到在2025年，就是今年，移工一到機場就整個被接走，另外在2018年甚至發生整個旅行團都不見了。好，我們來看一下，這些移工投入的這些產業不只是農業，可是農業有沒有需求？部長，你能不能告訴我們院長，農業目前雖然有農業移工的作為，但是實質上使用的移工都是合法引進的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，謝謝勞動部的協助，我們農業移工大概有2萬名，然後合法的移工核配有2萬名，大概現在目前用了一萬六千多名。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部門只有用合法的移工嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不可諱言的，還有部分的失聯移工投入農業領域，做季節性的打工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實沒有失聯的移工也在打黑工啦，我們屏東農村很多工廠移工下班之後還去打工，我們屏北在養鱉，鱉蛋都要早上五、六點天亮鱉剛下蛋之後就去挖，都是附近工廠的移工五點多去那邊挖了，挖到七點多吃完早餐才去上班，有的是晚上下班之後再來打工，有的是星期六、禮拜天再來打工，農業部部長，你知道這個情況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼這個情況一直存在呢？因為有需要。我們往下看，其實不只是災後的復原，現在要談的是全職轉廠跟就近兼差，依照我們目前的勞動法令，廠商合法引進的移工只能我使用，不能說我現在工廠停班休息、減班休息，我就給別人用，院長，你知道吧？不能因為我的產業現在訂單少，我引進的移工沒工作做，就移給別人去加班，產業是不可以的，為什麼？因為全職移轉未來會產生什麼情況？等到我訂單回來了，我就要把人召回來，那時候召得回來嗎？他就逃跑了嘛。所以目前工業部門、製造部門最擔心什麼？我減單休息、減班休息之後，我的移工跑掉了，等到我的訂單回來了，我要重請，重請的時候，勞動部也要核給它，但是這些已經跑掉的移工就轉入黑市，變成是我們臺灣抓不到、摸不到的移工，這是我們不希望的。所以要怎麼做呢？就是不要讓他整廠移轉，讓他就近兼差，他沒上班的時間，就到附近的農場去打工，我請教一下農業部部長，你覺得這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經就這個議題問了幾個企業，就是周休二日他們希望他們的員工休息，如果他去打工，他們也擔心他如果太累，第二天上班可能會精神不濟，這是第一個；第二個部分就是如果要合法休息的話，那相對的相關規定也要做修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，是後面如果要合法的話，規定就要修正。為什麼我覺得農業部門可以這樣做呢？因為它不是full time，不是每天8小時的，而是零散的工作，你一天來我這邊一小時、兩小時，類似加班，不然就是星期六、星期天你沒出去玩，來我們這邊幫我們做事，因為農場的工作是零工，有季節性、小規模、地點分散的特性，很難申請完整的像工廠工人這樣的農業移工來做。在這種情況下，如果原雇主受到關稅衝擊影響減班休息，你與其讓這些移工跑掉，跑去其他沒有資格引進移工的工廠做非法的工作，全職移轉，不如讓他本來周休兩天、周工作五天，變成周工作兩天，另外的三天他可以透過一些機制到附近的農場去幫忙？院長，你覺得這樣的方法可不可以考慮評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復一下。"],["洪部長申翰：跟鍾委員報告，因為移工如果要跨雇主或跨業去工作，尤其他不是在合意解約的狀況下，這涉及到的制度上的面向就比較多了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我要打斷，就是勞動部的思維還是製造業、工業的思維，但是農業要請全職移工的需求量不高，除非是農場、牧場，養牛的、養豬的，一年365天都需要，但是很多是季節性的，所以這是為什麼農業移工不太好用，但是這種兼差來打工的很好，他有沒有轉移雇主？沒有，雇主還是原來工廠的雇主，在雇主同意之下，他到鄰近的農戶家兼差打工，這個是有討論空間的，而且如果你不給他一個合法的管道，他就只得落跑，直接去打黑工，這反而不是我們樂見的。我現在已經請農業部去評估是不是可以由農會來出面，農會過去是扮演農業移工的引進單位，但是農會不好用，你說原雇主減班休息，但是他的移工還是一樣住工廠、吃老闆的，所有的負擔都是工廠在承擔，移工現在去旁邊的農場做一些工作，是不是這些農場要幫忙分攤一些行政成本？要什麼人來做，農民沒辦法做行政，假如農會來協助這些行政工作，把這些工廠因為用不到而釋出的勞動力分派出去，要分攤的保險費、住宿、吃飯費用等讓兼差的這些農場來分攤，由農會來統籌。農業部如果用這個方法，你們有沒有把握可以做到把這些減班休息的工廠移工，在他們休息期間，讓農業部門來做適當地使用，你們有沒有辦法做好管理？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在農會部分就有從事我們農業部門……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是全職的農業移工……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不好用啦！你也知道不好用！移工都是來一、兩天的，農民種鳳梨他幫忙種鳳梨，鳳梨種完，你要送這些移工去哪裡，送去南投採茶葉嗎？所以你們要很清楚，我告訴院長最後的這些問題，這些法令是勞動部遇到的就服法規範，它是原則禁止，例外許可，例外許可要行政部門開放。全職移工沒有雇主轉換的問題，只是原雇主同意他的移工去兼差，就服法第七條的這些條件都是可以強化的。","所以最後結論請院長承諾，針對農業部門的需求，讓這些受產業衝擊的移工，有方法可以趕快地去執行，院長，可不可以承諾研議辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請勞動部馬上去研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有農業部、經濟部。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}