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案子又要等哪個委員,這個都很怪吧?那黨編的時間都在這裡啊,所以建議院長我們就照...瞭解瞭解,好。那個,教練不好意思,我們還是在38案,我們邊討論邊等陳玉珍委員好嗎?請,柯總召請。也不用什麼等啦齁。"},{"start":1126.397,"end":1149.677,"text":"他要資料等一下國會會補給他嘛至於本案嘛,38號本案我們就競表同意,表就表決啊。表決,好。表決,不會保留,表決吧。那接下來我們...等一下,陳昕臻來了,他要資料趕快給他。好,國發會的劉主委麻煩陳昕臻委員所取的資料,麻煩一下。"},{"start":1152.389,"end":1181.472,"text":"好,我們謝謝劉主委,謝謝。好,謝謝劉主委。那我們接下來進入到九十一案,農業,那保留了,不要保留了。我們現在進入...劉主委跟各位官員請回,微笑。吳保請回,吳保請回。我們第九十一案,九十二案,九十三案,九十四案,同科目。好,黃總統請。是不是可以請他們先留步?"},{"start":1182.389,"end":1204.188,"text":"OK 柳主委對不起請稍待一下那個謝謝院長喔因為"},{"start":1206.912,"end":1220.165,"text":"表決歸表決我們也是到現在這個時刻才比較有機會看他們具體執行的狀況跟執行的細目那當然具體執行的狀況跟執行的細目"},{"start":1227.168,"end":1227.308,"text":"我相信﹖"},{"start":1244.285,"end":1270.904,"text":"促進轉型正義這樣子的一個理念大家都支持只不過說從過去促轉委員會成立以來風波就不斷導致促轉委員會本身已經終結的促轉委員會本身恐怕就是傷害促進轉型正義最嚴重的一個機構"},{"start":1272.762,"end":1288.307,"text":"那在支持促進轉型正義這樣的理念下我們納稅人的錢到底怎麼樣具體的事件在各位計畫當中那恐怕也是立法院應該要認真"},{"start":1290.536,"end":1315.439,"text":"來加以審查鑑度的事實上我想這個是第一個基本的原則那第二個是因為也是剛好昨天介紹完了以後那陳一正委員所提的一些問題逐漸的讓我們有機會看到更細的資料那看完了資料以後我想"},{"start":1316.42,"end":1333.985,"text":"還是希望能夠藉由這個協商的時候行政部門既然都來了能夠請他們稍微說明一下要不然有的時候我看這個實際執行的狀況跟我們坐在這邊審預算到底有什麼積極的意義兩者之間的連結"},{"start":1337.286,"end":1360.091,"text":"有的時候會讓人產生困惑所以才想要利用這個機會稍微詢問一下因為就在法務部法務部我們應該是昨天晚上還是今天早上拿來的他本來的部會的預算是386萬"},{"start":1363.58,"end":1372.585,"text":"我們現在看到他預估的執行數到年底已經到了834萬那我的第一個問題是本來編的預算是386萬那現在實際執行完的就已經超過這個數額到年底"},{"start":1386.477,"end":1407.967,"text":"預估要八百三十四萬預估的執行率是百分之兩百一十五點六九請問這個多的錢是從什麼地方來這個是我的第一個問題第二個問題也想要請教一下我們的主計長就是"},{"start":1410.512,"end":1437.771,"text":"如果這樣子做是沒有問題的不管是你要用流用還是用運資那我們一開始在審這個預算在劃定這個預算額數的時候就到底有什麼意義啊就有什麼部門、什麼計畫、寫多少錢是一回事嘛我最後執行的時候那個不是差百分之十、百分之二十"},{"start":1438.872,"end":1466.992,"text":"那是差了百分之兩百多我看了這個數字以後我就一直在思考我們很仔細的去針對每個計畫案的內容跟數字來進行討論或者是來進行預算的監督到底是在做什麼事情就這個部分是不是可以先請教一下法務部跟足機長請他們稍微說明一下讓大家可以理解"},{"start":1469.487,"end":1470.908,"text":"主席長,現在黃國昌總召提出一個問題,請您答覆,請說明。"},{"start":1490.464,"end":1517.103,"text":"這個部分我們本來是同計劃就沒有所謂的雲之流用的一個問題那當初這個部分就是因為是在同計劃裡面那然後後來又因為有法令修正通過所以有一些項目必須要執行那所以這個部分它是在同計劃裡面的項目裡面來做執行並沒有所謂的用途別的流用的問題所以這個部分我們就沒有涉及到流用的一個問題以上補充"},{"start":1520.81,"end":1532.279,"text":"黃總統請繼續再進一步請教一下我們的主席長您所講的統計化指的是最上位的那個計畫嗎?那那個最上位的計畫的名稱是什麼?"},{"start":1533.89,"end":1562.57,"text":"所以你就是說在促進轉型正義的這個計畫裡雖然我們一開始針對各個部會要執行的工作進行了分配但是一旦這個預算過了以後不管過的金額是多少各個部會到底最後要執行多少其實都沒有關係因為都是在同一個計畫向下嘛"},{"start":1563.274,"end":1563.294,"text":"一億……"},{"start":1589.386,"end":1615.611,"text":"一月四千九那所謂的管理費裡面變了多少錢不是不是管理會是說管理委員會剛剛你不是說管理費嗎管理委員會它會經過管理委員會的審查是但是所謂管理委員會的審查也是行政機關內部嗎是那跟我現在在在意的是立法機關的監督恐怕是兩個不同層次的事情嗎是"},{"start":1618.047,"end":1635.915,"text":"所以你的意思是在這個一億四千多萬裡面經過行政機關內部自己所設的管理委員會各個部會裡面他的錢要怎麼花要怎麼支應只要是在一個這麼大的計畫範圍當中其實都可以用"},{"start":1637.428,"end":1658.227,"text":"對,他一般如果說他這個部分沒有涉及到用途別的流用是你面內沒有沒有先停一下啦就是我們現在在討論問題其實沒這麼複雜我一開始請教你的時候你已經說得很清楚了在同一個計畫下沒有所謂流用也沒有所謂雲汁的問題嘛那因此"},{"start":1659.88,"end":1682.375,"text":"我剛剛請教的這個大的計畫就是促進轉型爭議的這個計畫這個計畫有1億4千多萬嘛所以按照你剛剛的說明跟定義這個都是在同一個計畫向下沒有雲芝的問題沒有流用的問題唯一的問題就是在你們行政部門內部設一個管理委員會然後那個管理委員會"},{"start":1683.476,"end":1692.192,"text":"可以決定這個錢要怎麼分配到哪個部會用在什麼用途用多少錢我這樣的理解應該是正確的嘛"},{"start":1692.674,"end":1713.925,"text":"他們要提計畫給委員會來審查,他委員會審查,或者是說哪一個單位他執行有一個剩餘,那這個部分就會由移到哪一個部會再來增加執行是這樣,所以這個部分就會透過委員會來做一個運作。對啦,當然就如同我剛所說的嘛,你所講的委員會也還是在你們行政部門內部的委員會嗎?"},{"start":1716.368,"end":1727.623,"text":"跟我在這邊所關心的是立法部門監督的問題是兩個不同層次的事情嗎?因為這個事情講清楚我覺得會比較好所以比較好也讓我們"},{"start":1728.683,"end":1744.327,"text":"立委就很清楚的知道我們立法院在這邊審預算的時候其實沒有必要看一個計畫下面裡面個別細項的東西因為那些細項的東西其實毫無意義從國會監督的角度來講因為過了以後"},{"start":1747.233,"end":1769.034,"text":"到行政部門內部,要用到哪個計畫,透過你們的分配機制、管理機制,要怎麼樣分配,這個都是行政部門自己可以決定的是嗎?因為它還是同一個計畫,它是沒有特別的事實。您講過的話就不用再複述了。所以對我們來講,重要的只有當初那個計畫,那個最高的那個計畫裡面變多少錢。"},{"start":1770.776,"end":1771.196,"text":"我這樣的理解應該沒有錯誤嗎?是。"},{"start":1800.161,"end":1825.645,"text":"接下來兩位委員發言,吳思耀委員跟一個陳一貞委員,但是我要容我提醒一下,這個本案呢,我們就已經送院會了。那如果沒有其他議題,好。那吳思耀幹事長。因為我剛剛本來要爭取發言也是,因為剛剛院長一開始對本案已經才是要送院會了,所以我本來也不想再發言,但是我覺得剛剛黃總召的釐清,那我也再來補充來做一下釐清跟說明看,"},{"start":1826.352,"end":1851.335,"text":"主席講對於我們的理解因為讓大家可以更了解促轉基金怎麼使用所以促轉基金過去是促轉會那因為促轉會退場之後就由國發會來接手所以促轉會呢針對促進轉型正義基金他組成了管理委員會也就是如同我們其他政府部門設定的基金一樣都會有管理委員會然後呢基金的支用"},{"start":1851.795,"end":1871.366,"text":"也會有促轉基金的收支保管運用辦法,類似這樣的運作機制。而剛剛黃國昌委員所垂詢的事情都可以在行政院主管促轉基金的附屬單位預算這一本的第18頁可以清楚的看到。也就是今年度呢,113年度編列了1億4973萬。"},{"start":1874.528,"end":1903.13,"text":"那這筆費用呢是包括有業務宣傳費有推展費以及最大項的1.4億是用在捐助補助及獎助那捐助補助及獎助用在哪裡呢它的致用是遊戲規則是這樣的是補助行政院所屬的中央二級機關來辦理跟轉型正義有關的政策研議執行研究及教育推廣換言之各個部會"},{"start":1903.931,"end":1931.665,"text":"可以依這個計劃的主題去提請計劃然後來獲得這個管理委員會的審查如果獲得合可之後就依據促轉基金的收支保管運用辦法來支用所以以113年度來講內政部有來申請教育部法務部衛福部文化部原民會國發會都有相關的申請案"},{"start":1933.065,"end":1945.77,"text":"經過基金管理委員會的審查認為這個計劃是跟這個基金的主體計劃是相符所以就予以核准之用那今天立委在這裡針對決算就是在行使我們的監督權針對每個部會"},{"start":1949.631,"end":1960.119,"text":"一、規則來申請的經費有沒有用的到位。所以這是我們今天在這裡討論這個預算。等一下啦,院長。好啦好啦,不要亂講。所以就是這樣子的,大概就是剛剛主席長您說的這個部分。那這個案子我們剛剛回到民進黨團就是有疑義就用會處理。但是該釐清的就釐清,謝謝。好,謝謝。請陳院長委員,請控制時間,謝謝。會,我很快喔。因為這個已經保留我針對昨天問的問題要請他提供的資料講清楚,因為剛剛我在這個"},{"start":1978.593,"end":1992.219,"text":"一場前面接受那個聽到那個吳兆瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳兆瑤委員吳思瑤委員講說這個陳一貞是不理性的立委所以我一定要好好的理性來把這個推出來這個問題好好的理性的問一下"},{"start":1994.94,"end":2014.467,"text":"昨天我們在這邊的時候國發會我看他原來給我的表裡頭有一個就沒有執行的還有應該付的錢裡頭有一筆是法律費用嘛就律師的費用是七萬五千元嘛那當然我想昨天因為很匆忙你們沒有辦法完全的提供但是在你們今天所提供的這個所有資料裡頭在法務部的資料裡頭我也沒有看到相關的有關律師的費用沒有列在這個計畫裡頭"},{"start":2015.828,"end":2016.268,"text":"我舉一個例子來講,像剛剛這個,不要再講吳兆瑤,吳思瑤"},{"start":2043.349,"end":2068.607,"text":"這個根據這個因為他剛剛有說那個按照那個計劃嘛那我也看到了你們的這個出境準行正義基金計劃申請及管考作業要點裡頭在第十條裡頭第十個要點裡頭有說如果這個執行進度落後於百分之十應就落後事項提出說明及因應對策這個是你們的計劃嘛你們的說明嘛那我明白就看到在這個裡頭有一個"},{"start":2070.248,"end":2082.474,"text":"你看,內政部的部分,就已經到目前為止,照你們提供的表格是執行56.13,這不是入座百分之十啊,這遠遠落後百分之三十以上啊,二、三十趴的落後。那是不是有請這些相關單位提出這個計畫報告呢,或者是,這個我想也要請你們提供資料給我們來做這個審酌啦齁。"},{"start":2089.298,"end":2099.605,"text":"另外一個,那既然這些委員會啊,他是審查通過的,審查通過的這些計畫裡頭,你們可以這樣挪用的話,我不知道這些委員會的存在的意在還是說他們的,他們是不是因為他們不夠權威喔,他們審查過的計畫,被下面執行人覺得說你們的計畫根本就不應該這個一百萬這個兩百萬,應該就這個一千萬這個十萬。"},{"start":2109.111,"end":2130.528,"text":"所以我請你提供這個所謂審查委員會的名單給我們是不是為什麼他們如此的被蔑視了就以上這三點就是這個計劃因為你們提供資料不實昨天告訴我說還有一點最後一點最重要的因為這跟金門地區有關係昨天在這裡現場是告訴我說金門馬祖政治暴力創傷療癒需求工作模式探究"},{"start":2131.649,"end":2153.226,"text":"昨天在這裡明明白白會議紀錄有告訴我說我說這計畫是多少錢他們說五十萬你們告訴我是五十萬今天給我資料是兩百一十三萬所以我們沒有通過國會執行法你們在這裡說謊我們都沒有辦法罰你們是多少就多少這個要照實說所以我以上所提的這幾點請列入會議紀錄請他們會後提供資料過來審查委員會的委員有沒有落後有沒有執行這個"},{"start":2154.787,"end":2170.638,"text":"好 大家都是在 同樣事情是在講 但是剛才有一點齁 審查委員的名單 行政部門的所有審查委員的名單都要氣勢白話的為什麼 你怕公布這些名單嗎沒有 所有的都是 審查委員都氣勢白話氣勢白話 氣勢白話"},{"start":2177.577,"end":2191.192,"text":"什麼叫去識別化我不用提供他們的個人資料啊我只需要名單說哪些人是這些人可以審查委員會你這裡頭是不是因為你們在裡面養人啊還是怎麼樣你看原住民委員會諮詢名單是去識別化的嗎欸這件事有沒有領錢啊有領國家的錢嗎"},{"start":2194.588,"end":2217.317,"text":"委員長,我一個程序問題,因為你主持會議嘛,我覺得每一個委員在發言的時候基本的禮貌要有,那在稱呼別的委員的時候用這樣的不禮貌...我現場道歉,他叫吳思瑤不是吳兆瑤,不好意思,說錯了。這是故意的嘛,這是一個故意的行為,所以我覺得..."},{"start":2219.87,"end":2230.697,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝蔡宜瑜書記長。謝謝。好,謝謝。那,謝謝。剛才陳議員所提的所有的所取的資料,麻煩請國發會的劉祖偉這邊準備,請送陳議員的委員這邊來參考,好嗎?好,請劉祖偉。好,我們會準備。"},{"start":2239.281,"end":2259.813,"text":"那非常感謝劉主委、國安會請主委跟所有的列席國安會官員就請離席,好嗎?謝謝大家。我們接下來進入第九十一案、九十二案、九十三案、九十四案。我們這四個案,現在張其凱委員所提檢列,九十一檢列兩議員。張其凱委員在現場請發言。"},{"start":2263.906,"end":2286.939,"text":"這個案子是臺灣民怨最深、人民最生氣的案子。而且到目前為止,連審計部都不願意核銷。這筆錢在目前連審計部都沒有完成核銷的這個程序。所以我一共提了四個案子,跟這個有關,都是進口雞蛋,"},{"start":2288.027,"end":2313.653,"text":"出了問題,超失了問題。第一個我要求檢列兩議是因為他用了農業金庫發展基金的錢可是農業金庫發展基金他的目的是為了造福民眾福祉跟農業發展請問進口雞蛋有造福到我們國內的農民嗎?有發展農業發展嗎?到現在每天不是切蛋就是蛋不過還在惡性循環當中第二個"},{"start":2315.832,"end":2332.201,"text":"監察院在113年的8月30號發布的調查報告,他提到因為農業部跟中央續產會疏於掌握民間企業自行進口的數量,也沒有切實掌握國內雞蛋產量已經慢慢回穩,導致"},{"start":2333.612,"end":2359.125,"text":"同年的七月份就出現了庫存超過了五十五萬顆剩下的蛋到同一年的九月二十七號預期的雞蛋高達五千四百二十九萬顆導致我們人民民脂民膏損失了監察院算出來的損失費用高達五億兩千九百九十二萬元監察院明確講這個有缺失"},{"start":2361.127,"end":2367.937,"text":"所以我要求檢列一億五千萬。第三個案子是產銷出的問題。監察院調查報告的意見九裡面講到說"},{"start":2373.919,"end":2393.492,"text":"因為農業部輸於跟衛福部共同去延長進口雞蛋洗血的這個日期沒有去積極輔導業者你洗蛋之後有效日期的計算方式也就是說監察院對於有效日期的保存期限是有相當餘力的這也是為什麼在去年我們吃到了一些壞蛋"},{"start":2394.646,"end":2415.796,"text":"買到的一些壞蛋,所以要求針對這個項目減類一千萬。另外一個是洗產地的這個問題。今天產業報告明確說,農業部委託的雞蛋,洗鹹這個業者在進口雞蛋以後,把產地不是寫國外的產地,不是巴西也不是土耳其,直接標示成台灣。"},{"start":2417.062,"end":2434.468,"text":"而且加工業者把超過34萬公斤的核彈加工以後變成液彈以後,產地標示的也是臺灣,這所謂的棲產地。所以我要求這個項目檢列一千萬。所以我提出了四筆,從它的設置目的違反了"},{"start":2435.578,"end":2436.379,"text":"蔣家俊委員發言蔡易瑜蘇議長請準備"},{"start":2462.006,"end":2486.96,"text":"基本上國民黨黨團這裡是支持民眾黨黨團就是針對這個農業發展基金使用的細節應該要能夠增進農民福利這是非常重要的因為這個雞蛋進口案已經是一個弊案了那也顯示出這個農業基金使用的腐爛可以說是沒有任何的規範這一點我覺得"},{"start":2489.702,"end":2498.708,"text":"等下可能農業部也要好好解釋一下就是說為什麼這個農業發展基金本來就是應該要促進農民福利跟農業發展為什麼會拿來補貼進口雞蛋呢這對於農民的福利跟農業發展"},{"start":2506.093,"end":2530.194,"text":"有什麼任何的幫助嗎那如果這個基金可以這樣子腐爛的使用的話那是不是侵佔了農民真正的需求農民真正的需求沒有受到照顧而這一筆基金拿去用了做了其他的作為為什麼農業部可以這樣子做所以呢就是民眾黨提出的包括檢列包括說"},{"start":2531.855,"end":2534.797,"text":"兩億或者是一億五當然我們不希望說影響到這個實際的照顧農民的需求但我覺得可能在刪減部分之外也應該要予以凍結請農業部提出"},{"start":2546.363,"end":2570.52,"text":"就是實際這筆基金運用的規範跟他的這個要符合他設置的這個用途跟他的目的否則呢如果假設他使用的都跟他的用途跟設置的目的不符的話那對農民也是一種損失啊那這筆農業發展基金等於是愛怎麼用怎麼用我覺得這對農民是非常的不公平謝謝"},{"start":2572.442,"end":2577.667,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員發言。蔡議員、蘇理長發言完畢就請陳部長回答好嗎?請蔡蘇理長。"},{"start":2579.025,"end":2606.395,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這一筆是農業發展基金而且它是用在產銷調節基本上產銷調節對於農民是非常的重要因為我們知道說現在雖然已經12月了但是12月一樣會有很多農產品事實上會出來包括番茄類包括說我們知道的玉米甚至是其他在水產品的部分包括"},{"start":2607.102,"end":2625.809,"text":"三百億事實上現在都陸續要出來那目前三百億在漁民來說也確實是價格都已經低了所以我認為說整個在產銷調節的時候他面對的是千百種的農產品的品項那尤其最近今年颱風又特別多"},{"start":2626.863,"end":2640.09,"text":"臺豐多我們知道對於這些蔬菜類就會有很大價格的波動所以我們是具體建議如果民眾黨的提案就是針對111跟112年當那兩年雞蛋的一個狀況那那個時候主要是因為雞蛋狀況是因為禽流感造成缺蛋所以有緊急進口的必要當然後來有發生一些程序上的一些問題"},{"start":2656.394,"end":2659.018,"text":"民眾黨想要檢討這件事我們也不反對檢討這件事情但是我們處理在113年的產銷調節的預算"},{"start":2666.96,"end":2683.144,"text":"那感覺上就變得說是針對農業部然後要去特別要去處罰他事實上他們應該要接受調查應該要接受當時事件這個辦理不妥的地方要受到處罰結果你現在去砍113年的預算那從我剛剛講的今年紅胎就特別多那看起來今年的"},{"start":2689.125,"end":2705.994,"text":"產消調節會用的預算會比較多,尤其是就我了解目前已經用了將近3.5億,但年底一定還會繼續要再使用一些剛才說的一些品項。所以我是覺得如果真的要刪,那就著刪就好。"},{"start":2707.237,"end":2725.091,"text":"昨三就好,看五百萬或一千萬,昨三一樣達到他們的效果,因為一樣是要檢討一一一一二年度所發生的情況。而且事實上這個議題也講了好久,從林北好友的事件到現在,大家都一直深度的在討論"},{"start":2726.292,"end":2726.872,"text":"三、繼續研商"},{"start":2752.302,"end":2759.354,"text":"陳部長麻煩一下,針對剛才三位委員所提的,請您答覆之外,也要請跟大家報告一下目前執行情況,謝謝。"},{"start":2761.44,"end":2786.926,"text":"院長還有各位委員那以下那個針對那個民進黨民眾黨那個張祺凱委員所提的這些疑問還有剛才委員的疑問我做幾個說明第一個說明就是在農發基金的向下的整項調節它最主要的目的就是在穩定我們的國內的這些這些重要的農產品的一個價格的一個穩定跟量的一個穩定那每一年我們針對包括颱風"},{"start":2789.927,"end":2805.12,"text":"臺風來的時候的一些產銷的一些一些調節的狀況然後也針對一些當時被國內被中國暫時停止以後這些農產品造成一些國內所以我們針對內銷外銷還有加工的部分都是用這條經費來處理"},{"start":2807.122,"end":2822.502,"text":"那目前為止就是我們在這個基金這個項目裡面大概是5.01億編列5.01億雖然說目前到11月底的時候它的執行率已經達到68但是因為計劃已經核定了所以到年底的時候"},{"start":2824.103,"end":2850.591,"text":"預計應該會全部用完甚至可能還會不夠那因為後續還有很多災後的一些還在處理的過程特別是這次這三個颱風以後就還在處理的部分我們還在做積極的輔導所以這個部分是第一個部分要說明的第二個部分就是剛才張委員所提到的部分有關於那個雞蛋的部分我想幾個說明第一個部分就是"},{"start":2851.511,"end":2875.508,"text":"整個的進口雞蛋當初用這筆經費那是當時那時候國內的雞蛋產能不足所以我們從國外進口那國外進口的時候才有機會讓國內的蛋雞產業做復養的動作所以基本上我想這整個還是符合基金的用途處於農業發展而且這些經費也經過特收基金管理委員會同意我們來使用"},{"start":2877.549,"end":2901.439,"text":"那第二個部分有關於這個過期單的部分那我們當初這個標示那個過期單本身因為有效期限是根據你的次程而去決定的那國內的習慣就是標誌是一個月的部分然後每一個進口雞蛋都有它的有效日期我們送到席宣場都有講這個歷次委員會我都有跟他說明"},{"start":2902.459,"end":2926.755,"text":"另外一個議題就是說有關於108年的標示的部分那108年沒有標示的問題因為108年本身我們是進口雞蛋以後就是跟國內的雞蛋用換的方式到加工廠去做一些蛋糕烹調類的這些原料那這個部分已經經過實質轉型就沒有所謂的產地的標示的一個問題那以下簡單說明"},{"start":2930.327,"end":2934.691,"text":"張啟凱委員,提醒您,剛才用了68%,預計年底可能會...我看了農業部目前基金執行率是66%"},{"start":2945.399,"end":2962.467,"text":"包括有一筆一百一十二年度過期忌憚的這個再利用的處理計畫,花了四千多萬。這個就是把它當成堆肥啦。就是剛我在講的,連監察都認為是有問題,浪費那麼多的民脂民膏。所以今天我會非常堅持,這四筆刪除的錢,"},{"start":2963.467,"end":2991.127,"text":"我會非常堅持。而且我抱歉抱歉我會要求一個最重要的最重要的農務部現在在做一個事情你現在的決算是連審計部都不核准你要怎麼去處理這個事情你搬了人民的搬了人民納稅錢去所以第一個你要把責任追清楚你要把該追的錢要去追回來你對人民才有交代啊要不然立法院怎麼同意你這筆錢第二個你在講說這個產銷很重要你目前已經用了66%嘛對不對我剛剛看了"},{"start":2993.248,"end":2995.25,"text":"你這個農糧產品的,農糧產品有已經花了67%,漁產品小劑大概也花了52%,"},{"start":3002.585,"end":3027.415,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":3027.577,"end":3037.503,"text":"那有什麼事?這麼嚴重的大會怎麼沒命綱?我們先說到底啊。好,謝謝。教練們請,我們就針對月美昨天,然後吳世耀幹事長請準備。基本上我們是同意民眾黨黨團所要求的說一定要能夠講清楚說明白這一筆費用到底是不是花的不正確,因為針對這個"},{"start":3055.875,"end":3060.258,"text":"檢察院在113年8月30日公布說,農業部進口雞蛋的專案會實際掌握民間企業自行進口的數量,而且也沒有掌握國內雞蛋產量回穩的情況,所以導致7月"},{"start":3075.129,"end":3075.169,"text":"　︎國民黨團提議　︎"},{"start":3102.123,"end":3124.174,"text":"剛才主委有講說他們有處理的流程包括說他們相關的規範都有做出優化都有做出調整那可不可以也提供說到底你們對於這些相關的規範這個基金使用的規範你們到底做出了什麼樣的調整也應該提供給大家知道因為包括蔡議員講的沒錯我們都是來自農業界我們應該為農民把關這些要調節產銷的"},{"start":3131.277,"end":3132.158,"text":"我必須要補充一下這當然是已經過去了但是我們"},{"start":3150.513,"end":3173.603,"text":"為什麼要這麼的認真檢討這件事情就是希望這樣的事情不要再發生不要再發生希望說這個過去就過去了以後不要再發生一樣的事情可是你下次再來一個什麼樣子的弊案我們也不知道嘛好不好謝謝謝謝張家俊委員發言那請吳世耀委幹事長發言完畢我就要進行處理"},{"start":3175.862,"end":3186.926,"text":"這個案子編列的預算數是5.01億那民眾黨這邊提的案子總共有四個案子那加總起來要刪減的金額是3.7億換言之把整個農業發展基金"},{"start":3193.004,"end":3217.598,"text":"用於這個產銷調節的向下是削減了73%。我想這樣一個數字到年底到11月應當已經支用了3.4億左右我的資料是這樣那這整筆來辦理產銷調節計劃的這個基金呢我想我非常同意委員們來發針對該監督的事項來努力監督"},{"start":3222.273,"end":3244.579,"text":"民眾黨委員對於這個雞蛋的事件對於農業部提出來的很多提醒農業部未來都要列為精進的作為那相關是不是有弊司法也在查監察院也在調查那回到預算行政部門的部分我想這個刪減的比例實在是高達73%那這一筆錢都是用在農民身上"},{"start":3248.976,"end":3252.141,"text":"那所有的從各類的農糧產品到這個漁產品到這個蓄產品"},{"start":3259.656,"end":3268.039,"text":"不一而足整個面對氣候的狀況臨時突發的狀況或是國際的局勢會衝擊農民生計的其實我剛講農糧產品、漁產品、蓄產品數十項那在野黨的委員針對蛋的執行這一項絕對可以監督提出異議沒有問題"},{"start":3282.236,"end":3311.075,"text":"只是砍了為了蛋這一項然後73%的刪減額度實在是在比例原則上是真的要在審酌那剛剛我如果沒有聽錯剛剛部長齊凱委員有提到針對那個蛋的部分後來因為那個蛋然後去填這個堆肥嘛是大概4000多萬嘛那如果說對於這個執行就他很直接就是那個蛋產生的"},{"start":3312.336,"end":3314.999,"text":"一、繼續研商一、繼續研商一、繼續研商"},{"start":3332.881,"end":3352.247,"text":"都比現在被砍掉3.7億,這些都是農民所需要的。紅布拉魚、沙巴魚、黑鮪魚、鬼頭刀、我們的洋蔥、鳳梨、甘藍、芒果、鳳梨釋迦、秋刀魚,這些東西、柑橘,我自己在北投也是有農產的,我們山上也有湯柑。"},{"start":3354.068,"end":3366.034,"text":"那這些是不是太傷及無辜了所以如果針對蛋的部分我具體聽到的項目就是那個四千萬我聽到不曉得合不合宜真的要著山對於刪減的這個額度實在太過當了"},{"start":3369.264,"end":3390.299,"text":"在這裡為我們廣大的農民朋友,他們對於產銷的調節,獲得基金的益助跟協助,這是大有必要。院長也對於農產非常的了解,您也知道農民所需。所以這個部分是不是請民眾黨的委員,勞煩在刪減的額度上再做斟酌好嗎?"},{"start":3393.09,"end":3410.175,"text":"張其凱委員,剛才吳世堯委員所提的一個建議就是說,您列了這個3.3億7千萬,3.7億,那他現在佔73%,他希望能不能3.4千萬左右,請問你同意不同意這樣子一個?"},{"start":3413.336,"end":3425.345,"text":"剛剛總召說至少是一億,你們的施咬才提了四千。我跟你講現在最重要的是人民的氣沒有消,這目前還是民怨很高的一個案子。我建議這樣子,這個案子照我簡略的先送到院會去,讓農業部去處理我剛剛回應民眾的民怨。講清楚第一個,到底審計部的這個錢沒有核銷你要怎麼去處理,因為你要追錢追責任嘛。"},{"start":3439.935,"end":3467.837,"text":"跟民眾交代清楚,再來決定到底是要檢列一例還是時間一律。因為理由都講得非常多,謝謝你。那我們現在蔡宇就針對同意不同意好不好。稍微等一下,請蔡宇,署長。我先講一下,就是說齁,因為他現在已經有執行,也執行了68了,然後如果照這樣的一個砍下去的話,會變成說之前執行了他就"},{"start":3468.582,"end":3491.08,"text":"對阿他都不夠所以說是不是先確定一件事情如果要進入表決然後要像這個張其凱所說的砍這麼多那應該要砍在農業發展基金而不要砍在產銷調節計畫裡面因為這個產銷調節計畫裡面已經有使用的那你現在把它砍了它現在沒有辦法去找這個錢嘛"},{"start":3492.854,"end":3503.369,"text":"阿再來第二項啦好第二項就是說事實上大家去思考因為像我們昨天在處理國發會他的出國的旅費那國發會後來因為要被砍一百九十萬"},{"start":3503.976,"end":3523.583,"text":"所以他們自己也去調整說他們原本要規劃要去出國去做他就取消了所以我們現在如果砍了這些錢萬一有什麼農產品事實上需要被執行要去做產銷調節的那農委會因為預算被砍了最後他就減少協助農民的力道"},{"start":3524.443,"end":3524.463,"text":"現在..."},{"start":3552.459,"end":3554.705,"text":"誰要問接受不接受就好了其他就請大家"},{"start":3558.905,"end":3581.102,"text":"控制一下發言的範圍。好,請柯總說。我講比較,講我第一份講,但是我很聽了大家講話,我知道大家要監督,監督可以。有問題移送法辦,這個都經常要調查。但我今天要針對這個事情要如何解決,我剛才有跟當區議員講說,今晚總統這個是五億啊,總共五億嘛,人家講一句五億。"},{"start":3587.947,"end":3606.46,"text":"人員會今年用的已經超過五億了,都沒搞了。那你把它砍掉,你把它砍掉,砍下草原稅法,最近後面的,後面還沒支出的部分,完全沒有辦法動。所以,而且總共這個是砍了將近百分之七十。"},{"start":3607.3,"end":3633.056,"text":"我剛才跟當時的白頭丟說你要砍多少一億兩億那是一回事但是像蔡議員剛剛講一定要科目自行調整這樣才能夠處理啊那當時的委員說他知道但是先到院會再來處理我們今天又把他處理之後在院會表情有時間大家再處理這些問題你要砍多少我們都尊重但是科目自行調整"},{"start":3634.537,"end":3635.438,"text":"謝謝柯總統請陳俊文請"},{"start":3645.262,"end":3669.556,"text":"當然我們也是非常支持農民,但是農委會重要,我們藉由這個預算的這個監督,讓農委會要意識到說,農民需要的不是只有補助,農民需要還要怎麼跟他們一樣發展的機會,這個才是重點嘛。那既然預算的東西如果是沒有通過你們就先行去用的話,那這種叫做先霸王硬上弓,先生米煮成熟飯以後回頭要來我們來追的嘛,"},{"start":3670.196,"end":3671.457,"text":"我跟他們報告一下,不是只有我最在乎的,人民最在乎的是審計部不核定的"},{"start":3693.467,"end":3693.747,"text":"三、繼續研商"},{"start":3714.215,"end":3733.788,"text":"審計部不同意你們核遣,這你們到底要怎麼解決?第二個,把責任追清楚,把錢追清楚,讓人民的民主民革,把錢追回來。這三個問題先解決,然後到了院會我們再決定說,好,你的執行率有多少?你的執行率,像你目前是66%嘛,對不對?目前是66%嘛,對不對?那到時候你看..."},{"start":3735.469,"end":3762.841,"text":"〇〇〇〇"},{"start":3762.901,"end":3790.694,"text":"那九十一案、九十二案、九十三案、九十四案,我們保留送院會處理。我們補充宣告,昨天處理台南公司第四案、第五案,兩案保留。我們剛才昨天沒有宣告清楚,我們補充宣告。好,謝謝。請農業部,謝謝啊。好,謝謝。我們換下面,教育。"},{"start":3791.735,"end":3793.696,"text":"好好好辛苦勸慰好好好好"},{"start":3881.185,"end":3905.62,"text":"對,院長提醒一下。對,報告院長有一個案子,跟國民黨協調好的那個。對,呃,第二十……二十六。第二十六就是同意改書面報告,這個有私民委員同意的,所以要宣讀一下,謝謝。"},{"start":3908.51,"end":3909.611,"text":"第一個就有關於我先處理"},{"start":3939.056,"end":3943.881,"text":"委員長你現在處理34嗎?因為現在剩下體育署的應該就剩下我們黨團提的34跟40嗎?應該沒有其他的案子嗎?"},{"start":3962.488,"end":3977.545,"text":"不好意思,因為那個體育署的部分只剩下我們台灣民眾黨黨團的三十四跟四十嘛。三十四跟四十這兩案我想如果院長同意的話,我們一併處理,速度會比較快一點。"},{"start":3981.53,"end":3988.853,"text":"我本來是想要讓部長跟署長早一點離開這個地方不過沒有關係我尊重院長的意識的沒有問題絕對尊重院長的意識主持第一個是三月四案你們前兩年就編的那個"},{"start":4009.83,"end":4011.03,"text":"所以你們到年底要執行多少?"},{"start":4037.745,"end":4058.317,"text":"就講具體的數字啦,這樣比較跨一點啦你現在本來是4555萬嘛那你們預計到年底要執行多少?因為你們前兩年的預算跟決算,預算跟決算落差都蠻大的嘛所以你們到今年年底要執行到多少?跟委員報告大概3500萬3500萬,那我們這樣直接減1000萬好不好?"},{"start":4062.881,"end":4085.774,"text":"你同意,這個案子就OK啦!政府長,那個現在黃國昌總召正式提出來檢列百分之一千,改為檢列一千萬。好,就一部同意接受。我們第三十四案,我們檢列一千萬,那個國民黨團每一件。好,現在進入四十案。四十案,台灣民眾黨團提出凍結百分之五。那個吼就..."},{"start":4086.714,"end":4105.685,"text":"事實案的部分因為我必須要先說明一下我也要拜託我們教育部的部長還有體育署的署長可能真的要再拜託你們2017年國民體育法的改革我相信那個時候的改革希望我們政府所有的錢"},{"start":4106.886,"end":4121.254,"text":"都用到選手身上這個是我們所有的納稅人大家共同的期待當時我們的前總統蔡英文也清楚的講協會存在的目的就是為了選手"},{"start":4122.662,"end":4145.347,"text":"就是為了選手當這個目的消失或是他的功能被破壞的時候協會沒有任何存在的意義但2017年國民體育法通過了以後這幾年下來我相信部分不肖的協會怎麼樣胡搞瞎搞去濫用體育署"},{"start":4147.088,"end":4170.442,"text":"對協會的補助我相信這些事情我在歷次的質詢當中我在歷次的質詢當中就是都講得非常的清楚了那當然其他各個部會有牽涉到了包括審計部等等他們也下去做了審計報告體育署你們說要找專業的會計師來進行查核該給的時間我也給你們了"},{"start":4175.124,"end":4203.109,"text":"只不過說我追了半天以後你們會計師的查核報告還是只有給我摘要沒有給我全部我第一個就是說事實案的這個部分因為這個沒有經過協會直接到小學所以事實案的部分我同意直接改你們給我書面報告就好了但是我要拜託教育部跟體育署善意不是單方面的"},{"start":4204.039,"end":4215.932,"text":"善意不是單方面。事實上,我同意你們改的,提書面報告給我就好,我也不會動,但你們該給我的東西要給我,包括會計師的查核報告,可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":4217.646,"end":4220.347,"text":"跟委員報告,確實我們現在會計師已經完成初步報告跟建議,那我們體育署會針對查核的事實裡面再請這個協會做一個說明,我們在整個的經會我們就會扣除,所以以目前來講已經"},{"start":4234.833,"end":4250.623,"text":"提議所已經要求這個迷你足球協會繳回補助款一百零三萬另外我們接著馬上要做說除了這個請協會在尼清會會計師所查核的以外我們要根據這個來追繳這個我們當然也會判斷做最後的決議追繳"},{"start":4255.586,"end":4269.058,"text":"不合規的這個補助款同時停止對那個協會補助五年以我目前的法令最高的一個懲罰就是五年內都不宜補助我們現在目前大概這個部分我是跟委員做這樣的一個"},{"start":4271.46,"end":4272.861,"text":"我已經釋出很大的善意,所以我就跟你說這個案子。"},{"start":4293.976,"end":4319.483,"text":"我就不會堅持了,我只要你們給我書面報告,然後該給我的查核報告給我,這樣就好了。這樣部長可以同意嗎?這個應該很簡單嗎?我說得蠻清楚的吧?競表同意,謝謝委員。OK,那事實案呢,我們就改組決議提書面報告,請問各黨團有意見嗎?沒意見,好,我們事實案就這樣子處理。謝謝教育部正部長,各位列席官員,謝謝。謝謝主席,謝謝各位委員,謝謝。"},{"start":4327.657,"end":4328.844,"text":"好,我們接下來交通。"},{"start":4367.657,"end":4383.949,"text":"好謝謝我們各位黨團幹部我們現在保留案交通共識案非營業基金第一案是觀光發展基金保留案號第25號"},{"start":4388.871,"end":4403.366,"text":"目前我們現在列席的是我們歡迎交通部陳部長,好,熱情歡迎。還有觀光署的周署長,歡迎您。國家通訊傳播委員會,好,現在好,在旁邊,好,沒關係,我們現在交通部,好,好,請。"},{"start":4406.149,"end":4426.311,"text":"抱歉抱歉馬上要介入交通部門因為剛剛那個運發基金那謝謝大家很快速的然後來通過民眾黨的議案也謝謝民眾黨的委員的相關的協助那我有一個那個確認一下因為當初在教育委員會的時候有把整個運發基金動了一百萬"},{"start":4427.532,"end":4429.453,"text":"請教育部請求棉雨凍結,不曉得有沒有可能。"},{"start":4445.629,"end":4445.749,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提議簡列兩千萬"},{"start":4473.396,"end":4495.614,"text":"第一個我要再次的跟我們的交通部還有觀光署說在觀光發展基金裡面基本上最重要的用途就是要促進我們國內的觀光產業"},{"start":4499.184,"end":4522.471,"text":"在促進國內觀光產業的時候我們在有限的資源上要用在刀口要用在刀口你們用這個基金辦了很多的活動我有的時候如果我有空我的習慣是我不會去參加那種活動上去拿麥克風講話沒有意義我的習慣是"},{"start":4527.697,"end":4555.621,"text":"我要不然自己去我要不然派人去他們會從頭到尾把你們那個活動舉辦實際的狀況全部都記錄下來帶回來給我看因為我覺得這才是一個監督最有效的方式那我必須要重申我對你們在辦一些活動的時候你們辦活動的KPI真的真的"},{"start":4557.236,"end":4579.389,"text":"要好好地評估,好好地使用。我也可以打開天窗說兩句話,是這個案子我本來非常非常的堅持。但是我們台灣民眾黨黨團前委員陳萬惠,她覺得東北部那邊的觀光,她希望,她幫你們開口啦。"},{"start":4580.57,"end":4599.263,"text":"希望說給觀光署機會以後做得好一點所以這個案子我不會堅持請你們提書面資料我相信這個善意釋放得很足夠了我希望明年在執行這個基金預算的時候不要再發生相同的狀況以上"},{"start":4602.544,"end":4624.984,"text":"黃國昌總召所提的第二十五案改組決議改題書面報告請問交通部跟廣東署各黨團可以接受二十五案就這樣改組決議題書面報告謝謝交通部陳部長各位列席官員接下來NCC共九個案"},{"start":4629.775,"end":4646.607,"text":"我們寫NCC代理的陳主委請坐好,熱情歡迎您我們現在第39案基金用途國民黨團陳金威委員提議凍結20%請國民黨團提出說明請張志倫委員請"},{"start":4655.42,"end":4680.942,"text":"好謝謝主席我想這個通訊傳播監督管理基金會是我們全民所重視的因為現在通訊傳播的監督管理主要的目的是來完備電信設施技術法規以及應用的業務所需支出而且我們人民是需要他是要有效來施政的讓人民有感及安心不是來監督人民那考量日前有執政黨的前官員公開表示"},{"start":4681.522,"end":4702.425,"text":"他可以透過基地台來比對的訊號來比對,可以掌握不同的公民活動參與,以及各族群之間包含年齡、人員等各自的差異,引發民眾針對他的各自的隱私權遭到電信業務監控之恐慌。至今還沒有一個"},{"start":4703.146,"end":4727.973,"text":"正式解釋,也沒有化解人民的疑慮。所以我們希望說,我們希望可以見到我們主管機關的NCC國家通訊傳播委員會有進一步的說明,可是現在還沒有任何的說明,所以我們本黨團提議要凍結基金用途20%,而且限期於一個月內向這個本院提交國人參與公民活動,遭電信業"},{"start":4729.393,"end":4737.359,"text":"監控之改善規劃及有關執行作法,說明提出專案報告,並經同意時得動之。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":4752.411,"end":4773.867,"text":"這條案我們先前已經啟動行政調查,也找三家電信業者以及四方電訊來查,也會同第三方的專家支撤會那邊做行政調查,並沒有談到任何為師。先前在交通委員會的時候也有做過一些報告,將書面報告提供給交通委員會的委員。"},{"start":4774.668,"end":4796.705,"text":"那針對後續的經濟的部分我們也針對三家電信業者他們的定型化契約有所調整那要求去識別化的一定要去識別化才可以提供給第三方那另外一點是要經過依法或本人同意才可以做目的外的收集"},{"start":4797.245,"end":4802.367,"text":"第三、必須提供選擇權。第二、請業者修正各自告知聲明事項,包括區識別化技術採用什麼。第二、UP-OUT管道為何。"},{"start":4815.652,"end":4837.584,"text":"那,進一步落實法制化部分,我們也在依各執法授權訂定的各執安全維護辦法裡頭,要求電信業者,你如果要做區識別化的一些應用,你一定要揭露你區識別化的方式、技術。那另外,你還要取得國際或相關的認證,區識別化的認證,像ISO29100或者CMS29100-2。那以上先簡單報告說明。"},{"start":4846.476,"end":4867.522,"text":"好,那你們現在那個主席單位也在,你們現在這個執行的情況可以跟大家報告一下嗎?是,報告院長跟各位委員,我們基金用途全年度預算數5.16億元,那到11月執行3.21億元,那預估12月可以執行1.83億元,全年度可以執行5億477萬元,那這個"},{"start":4872.846,"end":4887.727,"text":"整個用途的部分在交通委員會跟協商已經刪減了680萬元以上報告那各黨團幹部針對這個執行的請問在年底他大概還剩下1000萬左右那請問各黨團幹部能不能表示一下意見"},{"start":4889.019,"end":4890.02,"text":"請問各黨團能不能就這一點來表達意見?"},{"start":4911.377,"end":4916.319,"text":"我的建議就是說因為不能老是用這個理由然後去逃避監督啦那當然他說剩下錢確實也不多啦那我的建議是這樣就是"},{"start":4936.516,"end":4952.699,"text":"那剪裂齁 那剩下四百多萬 但是凍結的部分齁 我的建議是就要調整成十趴那你還是要提個專案報告給我們 讓我們來去做事後檢討你現在是要凍結還是要做專案報告啦還是要做那個報告啦各位 院長講一下好不好 院長"},{"start":4962.993,"end":4977.244,"text":"那還是一樣,我們就是按照我們的原案來做。不是啦,我沒跟你講。院長,要不要召集委員排專報?對,好不好?召集委員。好,請客組長。這個事情是這樣,這個預算處已經用掉了,只剩下一千萬了。"},{"start":4985.61,"end":4997.299,"text":"因為可以把他剩下的部分全部刪掉,已經用掉你再去刪也不可能啦,事情嘛,這要務實一點至於專報以後才可以動之嘛,市民的論一個月內我們立法院都在委員會排這個是有困難的喔另外"},{"start":5010.348,"end":5026.534,"text":"市長委員我可以說明一下這是我們立法院的問題因為我們立法院的預算營業及非營業預算是現在才在審的只要是一開始就審的時候當然是情況不一樣這不是他們賴多的問題是立法院的問題剩下的錢"},{"start":5030.956,"end":5058.489,"text":"所以主席因為對於行政部門最嚴厲的監督就是把他的預算砍掉啦所以我們也都達成同意沒有用完的全部砍掉我覺得對他們來講已經是很嚴厲的處罰啦那是不是就是就是全部砍掉啊如果要凍結的話就是要用凍結就是主決議然後交報告使得動之對那個"},{"start":5060.199,"end":5073.97,"text":"跟各黨團報告一下,現在大概三黨,看台灣民眾黨有沒有寶貴意見?他現在簡列四百萬的話,有沒有意見?沒有,我們基本上是尊重提案黨團的立場,只是說"},{"start":5075.447,"end":5101.761,"text":"我也不曉得該怎麼講欸幫你們把沒有用完的錢刪掉對你們是最嚴厲的處罰幫你們提高執行率還是最嚴厲的處罰這個邏輯我老實講我是聽不懂啦但沒有關係啦我們尊重提案黨團的意見他們要堅持不是啦,我是說尊重他們的意見嘛他們同意的範圍我們慶表同意他們不同意要院會處理就院會處理都可以啦"},{"start":5102.933,"end":5126.152,"text":"那這樣啦,因為我覺得關鍵還是要針對它的整個使用的狀況,我們要,我覺得很難是說今天要用完跟我講說現在剩下400多萬,就當沒事。那我要講的是說什麼,那這樣子,那剩下的凍結啦,我還是要求希望有一個報告,這樣子。就400多萬凍結,剩下還沒用完的凍結。"},{"start":5131.321,"end":5150.582,"text":"提議是凍結剩餘數為致用環避者凍結三個黨團我們凍結四百萬提書面報告第四十案民眾黨黨團提列四十案簡列二分之一兩百四十七萬七千請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見"},{"start":5152.921,"end":5153.481,"text":"陳耀祥帶了一堆人"},{"start":5181.658,"end":5209.527,"text":"跑去歐洲搞了一趟回來花了88萬嘛這是你們給我的啊他跑去捷克嘛說參加什麼網際網路治理論壇嘛只是我看陳耀祥去歐洲一趟回來參加什麼網際網路治理論壇回來也沒有提出什麼親民的你們NCC該做的一堆的事情通通都沒有做跑去國外幹嘛"},{"start":5212.503,"end":5240.79,"text":"我現在具體的講啊,因為省到這邊喔,處理上一屆國會該處理的沒有處理的問題,搞得大家都很無奈啊你們就擺出一袋錢,擺出一副錢都已經花了,那要不然要怎麼樣?沒有啦,啊我在講話你也開始尊重一下,好不好?對不對?不是啊,我們會真的要這樣開下去嗎?你確定要這樣嗎?"},{"start":5245.272,"end":5247.032,"text":"陳主委請表達意見"},{"start":5270.52,"end":5295.475,"text":"我可不可以說明是有兩個不可抗力的因素。第一個,原來我們有一個計畫是IIC是在美國華府開的,後來他們大會臨時改在泰國曼谷,所以那個費用就有落差,這第一個不可抗力因素。第二個不可抗力因素,原來有一個數位人權大會在哥斯大理加開的,它取消延到明年,所以那這兩部分的旅費加起來就數目就很大。"},{"start":5296.355,"end":5316.854,"text":"另外補充,去歐洲,六月份去歐洲EURO DIGITAL NIGHT部分其實有聯絡一些相關英國、法國的一些類似我們的同儕機關,跟他們一些交流也促成我們在十月份取得GOSEN這個線上安全組織的觀察員的身份。以上補充。所以結論減掉234萬,同意不同意?您用得到嗎?"},{"start":5323.718,"end":5348.951,"text":"二百三十四萬是預估剩餘數,那扣除交委會跟協商,交委會已經刪減數八十萬,大概剩餘一百五十萬。那就刪一百五十萬,用不掉就刪掉就好了。那我們這黃國昌總招手提就是刪一百五十萬。那國民黨團?那我們就第四十案,我們刪減一百五十萬。好,下一案。"},{"start":5350.109,"end":5376.509,"text":"四十六案。國民黨團提出凍結十分之一。請國民黨團表達意見。好,謝謝主席齁。我這邊還是想要提說啦,就是說NCC喔,過去一直以來齁,很多的這個,不管是很多的他的做法齁,其實人民不能認同。那當然,因為現在在省113年的預算喔,其實已經花了很多,可是我要想要請教的是說齁,"},{"start":5377.37,"end":5389.335,"text":"那過去一集以來我們的這個通訊傳播監督管理基金到底是還有剩多少錢到底餘額是多少錢因為基金它的概念是一個水庫的概念那當然我們也不是需要說"},{"start":5390.735,"end":5414.697,"text":"當然每一年度都需要說有盈餘啊可是我覺得NCC在管理這個基金有點不當就是說你不能因為說我們還沒有開始審這個基金你就一直花一直花一直花花到最後只剩一點點的我相信在去年度的時候你們也沒有花也沒有執行率那麼高啊也是有一些剩餘啊我是覺得你們113年度的時候真的花的有比較多啦所以這部分要請NCC來改善喔"},{"start":5415.037,"end":5438.234,"text":"那我特別還要提到說就是說我們這個案由是什麼我們認為尤其是很多民眾都有跟我們來回覆他說有惡質的媒體人與這些媒體我們不要講哪家媒體政論節目上烏龍爆料來毀謗無辜女性與前政治人物滾床單的這種事情遭起訴那NCC曾經召開"},{"start":5439.675,"end":5454.669,"text":"這個自律的諮詢委員會然後可是裡面的委員居然說滾床單非負面名詞而且一直延續公佈會議紀錄那NCC一直說媒體自律可是我們認為他是有不同的遇到"},{"start":5455.23,"end":5476.118,"text":"　︎"},{"start":5476.752,"end":5490.786,"text":"麻煩陳主委請直接在線上直接答覆張志倫委員的詢問。這邊的文字描述有點跟事實落差,因為事實上是媒體業者根據衛廣法22條設的自立倫理委員會他們的會議記錄是他們的委員會裡頭的委員發言,不是NCC的。"},{"start":5499.395,"end":5499.575,"text":"現在執行了多少?"},{"start":5499.575,"end":5499.615,"text":"主席長請說"},{"start":5519.877,"end":5520.898,"text":"理解。那接下來請羅智強委員發言。黃國昭總召請準備。羅智強委員你剛舉手了。"},{"start":5548.12,"end":5548.14,"text":"請發言"},{"start":5549.352,"end":5578.478,"text":"因為那個不同的提案委員關切的那個一些問題不太相同所以那因為我們前面已經做了這個凍結然後做那個報告的一個決議嘛那現在我想說還是要把提案委員他們對於為什麼他們要採取凍結的這些理由剛剛那個志永文已經講了就包括說對於所謂的那個惡質媒體人的爆料那NCC在召開的這個治理那個就是公司他們召開民事有召開的那個"},{"start":5579.338,"end":5582.1,"text":"有建於通訊傳播監督管理基金在110年度透過委託的方式將花費500萬元辦理廣電媒體專業素養培訓及公民培力的業務。"},{"start":5598.01,"end":5625.036,"text":"那他考量說相關內容以及具體的成效那以及成果介入的規劃都沒有相關說明所以他認為說這個也應該要請我們的就是NCC這邊也能夠一併說明那另外還有委員提到的是台灣詐騙情形嚴重那近年詐騙金額跟詐騙案件屢創新高越打越詐那受社會大眾詬病那NCC作為打詐的主管機關重要性在"},{"start":5626.296,"end":5639.884,"text":"主管機關之首也不為過。但是這個通訊傳播監督管理基金也負責宣導防詐事項。他認為其中裡面編列的服務費用那顯然成效不彰所以有一個也希望我們這個"},{"start":5641.926,"end":5662.924,"text":"這個能夠加以說明那另外還有委員是對於臺灣性影像犯罪的那個情形很嚴重這個部分也需要說明那另外也有針對所謂的委託這個辦理網際網路治理環境及諮詢服務的業務他具體成效那也覺得沒有很清楚的說明"},{"start":5663.504,"end":5692.205,"text":"那最後還有就是對於這個這同樣的東西所以大概以上的東西我想說還是要把這個大家的緣由先列述一下那將來再提報告的時候希望我們NCC這些全部都能夠一併的報告以上好黃國昌總召請發言柯總召請準備第一個這個提案的是王宏威委員基本上對王委員的提案"},{"start":5693.328,"end":5721.804,"text":"我是百分之一百支持但我覺得您是代理主委嗎?我希望代理主委在面對這件事情的時候請用嚴肅的態度面對NCC的責任容我再說一次請你用嚴肅的態度面對NCC的責任我剛剛聽你在那邊陳述這件事情說這個是業者自己開的自律倫理委員會是沒有錯啊但大家的問題是NCC做了什麼?"},{"start":5723.581,"end":5742.955,"text":"NCC做了什麼每次來立法院報告廣電業者所有自律的要求要他們自律規範結果開了那什麼自律倫理委員會啊開到自己覺得可能丟人現眼我回來立法院以前就在追這個案子啦"},{"start":5750.066,"end":5761.273,"text":"民事開那個什麼自律倫理委員會啊開到自己覺得丟人現眼在那個自律倫理委員會裡面說什麼話說滾床單是負面名詞嗎對被害者造成了二度嚴重的傷害到今天一句道歉都沒有這種丟人現眼的自律倫理委員會的會議記錄啊後來自己知道"},{"start":5780.233,"end":5807.043,"text":"不要公開比較好直接從網路上面把它拿下來就不公開根本找不到我從2022年就開始追這件事情我到2024年回來以後到2024年他們不曉得什麼時候再偷偷的要把那個補回去大家在質疑的事情是什麼大家在質疑的事情是在整個過程當中有能力去監管廣電媒體"},{"start":5809.741,"end":5818.928,"text":"被害人沒有辦法。被害人只能開記者會哭訴。有能力監管廣電媒體的是你們NCC耶。民視憑什麼把那個會議記錄撤下來?什麼時候偷偷補回去?可以這樣幹喔?不用負任何責任喔?"},{"start":5839.099,"end":5860.964,"text":"謝謝黃董,請柯總召詢我想這個是大包小嘛,最大的是三九案嘛所以國民黨以下的六個案子,七個案子都包在一起,一併處理那補書面報告,羅志祥委員講得很有道理至於黃董講的民視的質疑委員會的問題,請用嚴肅的態度"},{"start":5868.145,"end":5896.061,"text":"峰山委員在這個案子剛才聽說2022年開始追了,反正追到現在也有60次的破案了。該送法案的判刑者都判刑者嘛,兩個已經判刑者,所以這個是刑事責任已經是法院已經判了嘛。至於後續的當然誰做什麼事情,各黨本來就要負責的。至於這個民間的稅務委員會,我不知道"},{"start":5897.382,"end":5899.306,"text":"A系能夠管到什麼程度啊,這個請說明就好。"},{"start":5903.725,"end":5907.368,"text":"謝謝柯總召,那第四十案,陳主委您可以稍微,您現在有話要..."},{"start":5933.365,"end":5948.808,"text":"第二階段的事情而已。謝謝您的補充說明。那第46案我們就凍結10%,10分之一提書面報告。好,各黨應該沒有意見。好,我們進入54案。國民黨團曾經委員提凍結50%...全部都併在一起。對,那提凍結2分之1,250...國民黨團要補充說明嗎?"},{"start":5959.93,"end":5971.484,"text":"沒有了嗎?沒有齁,一樣我們就動...大包小了嘛,已經39案大包小,剛剛羅志強也講得很清楚,其他要說明嘛"},{"start":5972.486,"end":6001.735,"text":"那我們就凍結提書面報告。好,五十四案。五十七案,我們就凍結提書面報告。六十案也是凍結提書面報告。六十一案,國民黨團曾經會提的。跟證。六十案改組決議。那六十一案,我們就國民黨團曾經會提的凍結。凍結二分之一提書面報告。市長是不是併三十九案?全部併了嗎?"},{"start":6004.699,"end":6012.639,"text":"對沒錯 並三十九案 並三十九案沒錯 它主要在三十九案這個科目名稱嘛三十九案您大包小包底下七個案子嘛"},{"start":6014.347,"end":6029.058,"text":"其他案子你要提出說明嘛。對啦,這個合理啊。好,六十二案病委員會決議辦理提出書面報告。六十三案法治業務臺灣民眾黨黨團提出凍結二分之一,請華國昌總召請說明。"},{"start":6035.362,"end":6061.288,"text":"他們花了一些錢了,所以NCC來的建議是凍結10%兩個月內提書面報告時的凍結,這是你們的建議嗎?是嗎?市長請,請,陳代理主委不用客氣請。建議是凍結十分之一提書面報告。凍結十分之一我可以同意,但是時間我願意拉長,給你拉到三個月。"},{"start":6062.287,"end":6078.351,"text":"但是要提專案報告兼同意時的通知陳代理主委主委長請表達意見報告委員就是因為法制業務計畫其實他的預算數額並不大只有248萬那他已經執行了241萬6千只有剩餘6萬4千元所以如果凍結的話會影響到業務的處理奇怪"},{"start":6087.438,"end":6102.112,"text":"如果凍結會影響到業務的處理,凍結10%不是你們自己提的嗎?不好意思我解釋一下,如果是專案報告的話會影響到這個決算的處理。那如果是題書面報告的話凍結數10%是"},{"start":6106.35,"end":6133.413,"text":"所以你的意思是什麼反正提書面報告提來了以後不管裡面寫的內容是什麼就自己解凍了所以對你們不會有困擾提書面報告也是要到委員會這邊來處理第一個我們一樣一樣來不要把所有的事情混在一起好不好凍結百分之十是你們寫的我已經同意了你還要爭執凍結百分之十這件事嗎"},{"start":6136.834,"end":6137.595,"text":"二、我實現願意幫你拉長,拉三個月,但這件事情我希望你們做專題報告,請同意,使得動之。"},{"start":6150.765,"end":6151.285,"text":"好,請柯總召請"},{"start":6182.156,"end":6209.873,"text":"說凍結百分之十幾十分方,那是標配,標準配備啦。那現在拆開來就不一樣了。這一本案有關於三九案已經全部處理一切了嘛。全部併在一起處理就可以。因為剛才三九案拿到同意嘛。所以就全部併到三九案裡面統一處理了嘛。那個現在黃祖昭現在柯總統都說全部併到三九案。有其他黨團的提案我都尊重啊。現在在討論的是台灣民眾黨黨團的提案。"},{"start":6212.648,"end":6221.959,"text":"現在陳代理主和跟主席講,現在黃總召所提的是一個比較寬的狀態,而且是在你們所同意的基礎之上,這應該沒有問題吧?"},{"start":6223.633,"end":6246.701,"text":"國務委員,就是因為專案報告後使得動資的話,我們在決算數,因為我們已經實資了,在決算的處理上會有一些,必須轉,就是會有一些懸賬的問題。那所以希望就是說,如果是,可不可以就改組決議,然後提專案報告?不行。"},{"start":6248.272,"end":6273.8,"text":"我這樣講啦,我已經次數非常大三一,如果連這個你們都要爭執,那沒有關係,那就圍織原案,送院會處理。我們六三案保留送院會處理。好,我們請往下。等一下,院長。好,我現在來... 院長,等一下。紅樁委員既然這樣堅持的話,那當然也無所謂,那後續是你們奏章的問題嘛。應該是這樣啦。"},{"start":6278.588,"end":6286.328,"text":"就是已經實質的經費不能列為實質數那事實上這些業務的支出都已經我知道那是章木作章的問題"},{"start":6289.815,"end":6301.36,"text":"我已經做了裁決我們就不再回頭了這個部分我再說明一下因為他現在248萬他已經用了241萬他只剩下6萬那所以你說要凍結10%他就會有問題不能凍結因為你凍結起來不能凍結但是事實上他已經支用了241萬他只剩下7萬或6萬這樣所以你現在凍結起來不能用"},{"start":6317.586,"end":6319.907,"text":"三九四六五四五七六一並案凍結四百萬元提書面報告"},{"start":6347.162,"end":6348.964,"text":"好謝謝好我們休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":7121.186,"end":7121.307,"text":"時間關係我們要快"},{"start":7218.85,"end":7241.682,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝謝謝請就為我們開始我們現在113度附屬我們勞動部我們現在就業安定基金我們共三案今天列席的所有的我們首先歡迎勞動部紅部長歡迎衛福部的邱部長歡迎您好好謝謝我們第八項"},{"start":7243.224,"end":7245.27,"text":"促進國民就業計畫,國民黨賴世保委員提例減列3億元,請國民黨團請表達意見。"},{"start":7250.697,"end":7277.375,"text":"好,謝謝主席有關於這個我們國民黨團提出來這個有關於就業安定基金是先進了大家所重視的不管是前任的這個勞動部的許部長還有非常多這個基金使用上的一些問題我相信新聞媒體大家都很關注所以我們希望說現在在這個這個基金用途明細表裡面有一個叫做促進國民就業計畫裡面的服務費用"},{"start":7286.539,"end":7298.204,"text":"一般服務費專業服務費等等。那我們希望的是說在一百零九年到一百一十一年的時候決算數字只有七十二億可是我們剛剛講一百一三年的時候"},{"start":7299.669,"end":7326.797,"text":"卻高達八十四億而且在過去的這個預算實現率只有大概九成八成七到九成二所以我們是希望說這個因為預算跟決算數字差異很多有大概十趴的差異性而且一百一三年的時候還增列這麼多所以我們是希望說這個應該要來節省這個人民的納稅錢所以我們是建議要刪除服務費用三億元那這邊我們還是要提說"},{"start":7327.977,"end":7345.53,"text":"就是就業安定基金這些東西一般來講是要真的是要服務人民去就業的部分而不是當作是某些部會首長的一個這個零用錢或是甚至很多媒體說這是小金庫所以我要請部長來協助到底未來這就業安定基金的部分"},{"start":7346.411,"end":7365.033,"text":"如何去好好去查詢說到底有沒有被濫用的這個部分是不是你們自己一定要提一個專案報告來去做檢討因為上次我們大家都知道上次到現在就你的這個調查報告裡面其實就針對這個就業安定基金的部分好像隻字未提以上謝謝"},{"start":7366.635,"end":7385.626,"text":"紅部長張志宏委員提了三個重點第一就是說檢列三億元能不能接受目前執行的多少第二過去就業安定基金有沒有被違法濫用挪用第三展望未來安定基金要怎麼樣正確的定位您先答覆剩下其他黨團要發言請在主席台這裡登記請紅部長"},{"start":7388.47,"end":7403.502,"text":"首先謝謝張志榮委員的一些提醒第一個我先說明一下因為這段時間大家都在討論到救安基金的問題那在救安基金這件事情其實在我上任後其實馬上就要求"},{"start":7404.102,"end":7431.881,"text":"我們發言署開始做檢討的作業到目前一直到今天都還在召開這些檢討作業的會議其實我們到時候一定會針對救安基金的這個改革的方案我們會拿出一個方案那事實上我在委員會裡面也有說大概一個月左右的時間我們必須拿出一個改革方案因為我們很清楚知道這個現在還是在談113年的預算那114年的預算這部分也會是大家一個很重要的重點所以這是第一點要說的事情"},{"start":7433.322,"end":7453.672,"text":"第二點剛剛其實在講到說這個有沒有相關的弊端的事情其實也讓這個目前確實檢調就是在在已經在做這個查查那我們的態度很清楚我們絕對不會有任何的包庇我們會全力的配合檢調在這方面的"},{"start":7457.075,"end":7480.015,"text":"有相關的事證送檢調送證封我絕對絕對不會逃避這部分我們把我們態度可以在這邊再說清楚一次再來一點關於現在當然這個賴斯堡委員的這個提案也就是說在救安基金下面一個促進國民就業計劃下面的這個服務費用那我們大概查了說目前其實因為這單已經現在是年底了嘛目前我們大概"},{"start":7481.277,"end":7492.614,"text":"經費的使用率大概到...到...預計是會到99啦那其實確實現在大概剩下3億元左右目前大概剩下3億元左右所以..."},{"start":7495.39,"end":7495.83,"text":"接下來請吳思堯委員請發言"},{"start":7514.931,"end":7537.251,"text":"陳儒剛剛洪部長的說明就業安定基金不只是現在在處理113年度的國營事業的相關的預算附屬單位的預算其實新年度的預算也都是大家關切的那我也非常同意就不護短不包庇該改革就改革那回到預算書上就是就教於部長如果就如這個刪減數"},{"start":7538.988,"end":7539.569,"text":"臺灣民眾黨 黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":7552.168,"end":7572.08,"text":"我們尊重提案黨黨團的提案那這個數字看起來也抓得蠻準的那把沒有花的都把它刪掉有助於提高他們的執行率那至於說剛剛所討論到的就業安定基金過去到底怎麼處理的"},{"start":7573.161,"end":7594.278,"text":"在提送相關資料的時候是不是有包庇、有護短,這個不是今天我要處理的問題。臺灣民眾黨黨團對於就業安定基金,我們具體的態度,會呈現在明年的預算處理上面。以上。好,謝謝黃國昌總召的發言。那,黃部長我們這邊如果說三黨,請柯總召請。"},{"start":7597.202,"end":7623.737,"text":"剛才各位都很清楚,新任部長、黃部長以前是大家的老同事,講話也非常誠懇,面對所有問題都沒有迴避,要移送就移送。那有關於就安定基金所三個提案,剛才我們前面幾個案子的處理模式是說,因為你要用的錢,用不掉就把它刪掉。"},{"start":7624.958,"end":7646.49,"text":"那是不是要照這樣三點數這麼高,大家斟酌一下嘛。國民黨也講了嘛,到年底會用到百分之九十九。不要說用到百分之九十九啦,那多三一點也無所謂。用這模式來思考一下可能比較合理。因為你上幾案都是如此處理嘛。那好,請羅志強委員請發言。好的,好,請羅志強。首先,就業安定基金最近正式引起全民公憤。"},{"start":7654.946,"end":7682.665,"text":"那我覺得也不能是一句空話說以後改進就能夠去督促你其實要督促政府機關好好把人民的憤怒記在心裡讓他改進就是你今天做得多爛我就看你多少預算那去萬地基金現在報道變成小金庫馬屁基金然後他的所有的費用拿去開演唱會三百多萬然後什麼沙龍照啊什麼會議室咖啡豆垃圾情侶點點點搞個八千萬"},{"start":7684.475,"end":7709.564,"text":"說真的我覺得今天如果我們今天提議這個檢列三億元我覺得是在幫政府啦等於是幫政府打一個鞭子讓他說你今天如果你在亂搞抱歉明年就三十你明年再更三十億都可以啊因為你沒有好好幫人民把納稅錢用好所以我的主張是這樣那既然我們洪部長也很誠意啊直接跟你講還有三億元沒用嘛那就檢列三億元嘛"},{"start":7713.677,"end":7714.217,"text":"八案簡列三議員1823"},{"start":7733.07,"end":7756.204,"text":"那現在國民黨賴斯堡委員所提的簡列三項跟23案國民黨陳吉瑞所提的簡列5%請國民黨團請表達意見是不是併第八案我跟大家說我覺得剛好也是幫勞動部因為簡列的部分的話其實是給勞動部一個警惕事實上也請你不要再浪費要遵截"},{"start":7756.843,"end":7774.278,"text":"那我覺得那個18案的部分因為就我所知目前跟那個勞動部這邊我們提案的那個委員應該是可以改為主決議所以18案我覺得可以改為主決議但是23案我就認為就是說一樣是這個凍結"},{"start":7776.6,"end":7790.239,"text":"提報告再動之,那原因很簡單,就是說希望再給我們的勞動部一點壓力啦,所以這相關的事情把報告清除,所以前面是簡略,簡略是一種警惕嘛,那後面凍結要你報告也是一種警惕,以上"},{"start":7792.951,"end":7816.32,"text":"各位黨團幹部還有勞動部麻煩聽一下,我們現在就是說18案改為主決議,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,我們18案改為主決議。23案的話呢,凍結5%提書面報告,請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見?沒有同意。那紅部長有沒有意見?我說明一下好不好,因為現在當然真的是已經是年底,我不知道可不可以這個凍結,當然就是如果凍結5%,"},{"start":7818.661,"end":7832.357,"text":"但是可不可以在項目上面是這個改到對自行調整到這一般行政管理計畫下面可以自行調整啦好不好因為我們的這個秘書業務確實現在有已經使用的差不多了"},{"start":7832.739,"end":7838.261,"text":"董事長的意思是說現在年底了,我們就凍結830萬,剩下提書面報告之外,他就自己在他這個科目項目下執行的。"},{"start":7859.145,"end":7861.628,"text":"在一般行政的管理向下。"},{"start":7876.795,"end":7895.889,"text":"自行調整。是。好嗎?好。好。各黨那邊沒問題。好。我們232這樣處理。謝謝勞動部紅部長。謝謝您。謝謝。好。各位官員請微笑離開。謝謝。好好好。請衛福部邱部長。好久沒看到紅部長的微笑。笑不出來了。辛苦了。紅部長好久笑不出來了。"},{"start":7910.37,"end":7936.011,"text":"好,各位黨團幹部,我們衛福部我們現在討論我們衛生福利特別收入基金目前國民黨黨團提議檢列百分之五凍結二十分之九那原列數是三千兩百五十萬請提案的國民黨團請表達意見我先說明一下好了先讓提案的委員講完以後你再說嘛,好請"},{"start":7945.66,"end":7966.215,"text":"好,謝謝主席那針對這個衛福特收的基金我們國民黨團我們有委員提出來就是說有關於這個食品安全保護計劃相關的費用我們是認為應該要來去這個因為過去每年大概都只有編列700萬的相關業務支出可是在113年的時候"},{"start":7970.038,"end":7991.098,"text":"我們這個是很震驚的增加了4.64倍464%的規模變成3250萬之多而且我們很多本黨的委員一直想說請基金的主管機關來提出說明可是你們完全沒有任何的說明那我們是不是想說是為什麼稍微是政策改變"},{"start":7992.259,"end":8012.87,"text":"還是什麼樣你們到底有做什麼樣的這個食品安全績效的設定喔才要提這麼多的預算喔那我們是希望說食安一定要顧好可是民脂民膏也要顧好所以我們提案喔要簡列這樣的基金用途的預算數百分之五然後另外也要凍結百分之四十五的預算數"},{"start":8013.931,"end":8029.873,"text":"然後因為你們過去一直以來都沒有提供我們資料,所以我們要限期一個月內向本院提交113年度辦理補助中央主管機關指定或公開徵選者,用於從事其他關促進食品安全等相關費用,在預算"},{"start":8030.834,"end":8034.217,"text":"預算經費較前一年增長464%,就4.64倍的規模所預計達成之績效目標執行計畫,提出專案報告,而且要並經同意後,使得動之。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。請吳世耀幹事長發言。"},{"start":8049.75,"end":8070.678,"text":"謝謝這個案子我想食品安全保護基金的支用當然要用於食安的相關費用那過去一年來的很多食安的議題中央地方大家都要擴大來聯手來保護人民的安全那就這個預算案的部分呢因為我事前也有跟衛福部的同仁在討論那也督促他們要去跟提案委員"},{"start":8071.418,"end":8095.817,"text":"做說明。上一次第一輪是這樣。所以提案委員就我所知你們應當有去說明也獲得提案委員願意做的一些調整。好像是可以提案委員是陳金輝委員然後他願意做文字上的一些修正用決議的方式該主決議的方式處理這是我追蹤的我一定會去追蹤每一個部門有沒有去跟提案委員做說明"},{"start":8096.377,"end":8121.46,"text":"所以就我的理解是這樣,金輝委員也同意修正文字該主決議,所以是不是就這樣來處理。但修正的文字可能部長要...好,稍微等一下,請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見。黃國昌,黃總長請。只有我們村眾提案黨團,他們自己對這件事情的立場。好,邱部長,現在請您答覆,請。包委員長還有各位各黨團的委員,"},{"start":8122.401,"end":8137.279,"text":"那這個預算是其實是從112年就因為我們有增加人力的一個資源那這個是全部是發給各縣市政府去好好落實食安"},{"start":8138.16,"end":8138.18,"text":"市長請"},{"start":8158.098,"end":8172.954,"text":"院長還有各位委員先跟各位委員報告經費主要是增加支付地方衛生局處進行促進食品安全相關活動的經費其中包括主要有人事業務和管理費"},{"start":8173.695,"end":8174.095,"text":"請問國民黨團有沒有保過意見?"},{"start":8201.835,"end":8204.399,"text":"第六十六條案改為主決議"},{"start":8218.429,"end":8231.558,"text":"113年度運動發展基金原審查報告第四案通過決議免與凍結改組決議。現在請各位黨團幹部要仔細聆聽一下柯建民總召提出來鑒於113年度將"},{"start":8241.755,"end":8263.546,"text":"年度中了,針對113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分,建請除院會協商新增之預算凍結案之外,各委員會審查通過之預算凍結案均免與凍結,改為提出書面報告,"},{"start":8268.092,"end":8273.7,"text":"之後通過。這一點要請教各位黨團幹部卿。我先說明一下。我們現在是在審查年底的嘛。那這個已經"},{"start":8283.995,"end":8303.877,"text":"這個預算是上屆委員所在審查的,留下來的所有的紀錄,包括凍結數等。但是我們在這裡已經重新再讓他協商過,要凍結怎麼樣有新的處理方式。所以舊的部分已經應該可以回去,因為都已經改了,都離開了。要把它改為處決議,就是符合實情。"},{"start":8305.759,"end":8308.222,"text":"好,沒關係,黨團幹部表達大家的意見,沒問題我們都,請,陳醫生委員請"},{"start":8327.711,"end":8357.032,"text":"我覺得這個數難同意因為你說以前已經過去了已經都沒有在這裡了你們對什麼叫什麼轉型正義勒那都多過去了你們還不是一直在往前追究我們這個是立法機構是一直程序下來劉姓林是資深的立委對不對以前你也還在這裡我上一次當然還在這裡所以當然是沒有辦法用通放的方式那以後所有單位只要知道故意把這個拖到臉底然後我們都可以用這一招叫做這叫大赦喔"},{"start":8358.789,"end":8359.35,"text":"無法同意"},{"start":8375.253,"end":8400.096,"text":"那我們就不再處理了,我們現在做宣告包括各位黨團幹部保留的第二輪協商我們已經處理完畢第二輪協商結果就各委員會整理書面後交各黨團確認後送財政委員會並由財政委員會來會診於本日下午五點前送議事處以利明天院會進行保留部分之處理"},{"start":8401.357,"end":8429.734,"text":"同時的併同來處理那也非常感謝大家今天大家的出席也謝謝各位尤其新任主席長陳主席長謝謝你各位列席幹員我們現在這協商結論大家簽嘛沒有辦法處理嘛目前的嗎?今天這今天這目前再簽嗎?"},{"start":8437.54,"end":8443.211,"text":"那有關於這個政交稅以及地方稅法通則那一部分,其他人都還沒簽啊?"},{"start":8447.888,"end":8459.622,"text":"明天要處理前要先處理,因為這個有增加稅明天要處理。一整大家共同來變更,把該處理的處理。那照意思處理。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:01.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:09.258000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝各位列席的首長、官員，因為時間已到，我們現在開始開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:09.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:22.765000+08:00","text":"今天\n民進黨團總召、幹事長都到了；台灣民眾黨團黃總召也到了；國民黨團三位黨團幹部要慢一點\n才能到現場，張嘉郡副書記長……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:24.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:26.167000+08:00","text":"等一下沒有關係，等傅總召來嘛。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:26.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:27.167000+08:00","text":"他們要一個小時。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:27.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:28.167000+08:00","text":"他們要一個小時？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:28.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:29.167000+08:00","text":"我先來啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:29.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:30.167000+08:00","text":"你們整黨落跑啊，跑哪裡去啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:29.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:01:36.352000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我們先繼續審查，然後看大家有什麼寶貴意見還是一樣提出來。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:01:36.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:08.150000+08:00","text":"我們現在還是回到昨天那個停滯點上，我們繼續針對 113 年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算經\n濟委員會非營業部分保留案進行協商，今天我們要繼續來審查國發會主管促進轉型正義基金 1\n案，以及農業部主管的農業特別收入基金 4 案。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:08.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:13.751000+08:00","text":"非常歡迎今天列席的行政院陳主計長，熱情歡迎您。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:15.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:17.752000+08:00","text":"國家發展委員會的劉主委，熱情歡迎您\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:18.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:21.192000+08:00","text":"農業部的陳部長，熱情歡迎。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:22.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:29.303000+08:00","text":"我們現在還是回到昨天那個促進轉型正義基金……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:29.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:50.763000+08:00","text":"院長，因為陳玉珍委員對於促進轉型正義基金有比較強烈的意見，他正在路上馬上就\n要過來了，我們是不是可以先談農業作業基金的部分，這個保留等他們來再談，可以嗎？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:50.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:56.368000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，那這樣子哪一個案子要等哪個委員，這個都很怪吧，那黨鞭的時間都在\n這裡啊！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:56.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:57.950000+08:00","text":"所以建議院長，我們就照……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:58.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:02:59.151000+08:00","text":"了解，了解、了解，好。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:02:59.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:00.151000+08:00","text":"嘉郡委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:00.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:01.151000+08:00","text":"院長，我想講一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:01.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:05.678000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我們還是在第 38 案，我們邊討論邊等陳玉珍委員，好嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:05.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:06.939000+08:00","text":"請，柯總召請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:06.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:17.524000+08:00","text":"也不用什麼等啦，他要資料，等一下國發會補給他嘛，至於本案第 38 案，我們就敬\n協 2\n表同意，要表決就表決。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:20.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:21.968000+08:00","text":"表決，不是保留，表決啦。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:21.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:22.968000+08:00","text":"第 38 案保留送院會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:22.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:25.491000+08:00","text":"那接下來我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:25.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:29.335000+08:00","text":"等一下，陳玉珍來了，他要的資料趕快給他。好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:29.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:32.657000+08:00","text":"那國發會劉主委，麻煩陳玉珍委員索取的資料，麻煩一下。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:32.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:36.535000+08:00","text":"已經送了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:36.535000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:40.413000+08:00","text":"他有給我，但是有一個部分不完全，所以我後來有跟他講。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:40.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:41.594000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝劉主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:42.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:47.619000+08:00","text":"那我們接下來進入到第 91 案農業……那個保留了，保留了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:48.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:49.020000+08:00","text":"我們現在進\n入……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:49.020000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:50.541000+08:00","text":"國發會可以請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:50.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:54.104000+08:00","text":"國發會劉主委跟各位官員請回，微笑。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:54.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:54.804000+08:00","text":"無保請回、無保請回。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:55.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:03:59.428000+08:00","text":"我們要看第 91 案、第 92 案、第 93 案、第 94 案……","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:03:59.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:04:02.130000+08:00","text":"院長，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:04:02.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:04:04.452000+08:00","text":"是不是可以請他們先留步？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:04:05.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:04:07.391000+08:00","text":"OK，劉主委，對不起，請稍待一下。請。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:04:07.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:04:08.071000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:04:27.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:04:43.145000+08:00","text":"因為表決歸表決，我們也是到現在這個時刻，才比較有機會看他們具體執\n行的狀況跟執行的細目，那當然，具體執行的狀況跟執行的細目裡面所直接牽涉到的問題，恐\n怕也不是在這個協商裡面可以一件一件去細究，那個要等到其他的場合適當的時機再來一件一\n件的細究。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:04:50.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:05:33.904000+08:00","text":"我相信促進轉型正義這樣的理念大家都支持，只不過說從過去促轉委員會成立以來\n風波就不斷，導致促轉委員會本身，已經終結的促轉委員會本身恐怕就是傷害促進轉型正義最\n嚴重的一個機構。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:05:36.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:06:01.624000+08:00","text":"在支持促進轉型正義這樣的理念下，我們納稅人的錢到底怎麼樣具體實踐在\n各個計畫當中，恐怕也是立法院應該要認真來加以審查監督的事項，我想這個是第一個基本的\n原則。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:06:01.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:06:48.728000+08:00","text":"第二個是剛好在昨天協商完了以後，陳玉珍委員所提的一些問題逐漸地讓我們有機會看\n到更細的資料，那看完了資料以後，我想還是希望能夠藉由在協商的時候，行政部門既然都來\n了，就請他們稍微說明一下，要不然有的時候我看這個實際執行的狀況，跟我們坐在這邊審預\n算到底有什麼積極的意義，兩者之間的連結有的時候會讓人產生困惑，所以才想要利用這個機\n會稍微詢問一下。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:06:52.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:07:43.423000+08:00","text":"法務部應該是在昨天晚上或是今天早上拿來的，本來部會的預算是 386 萬，\n那我們現在看到所預估的執行數到年底已經到了 834 萬，我的第一個問題是，本來編的預算是\n386 萬，那現在實際執行完的就已經超過這個數額，到年底預估要 834 萬，預估的執行率是\n215.69%，請問這個多的錢是從什麼地方來？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:07:43.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:07:46.165000+08:00","text":"這個是我的第一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:07:46.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:09.623000+08:00","text":"第二個問題是想要請教一下我們的主計長，如果這樣做是沒有問題的，不管你是要用流用還\n是用勻支，那我們一開始在審這個預算、在劃定預算額數的時候到底有什麼意義啊？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:10.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:24.254000+08:00","text":"就是什麼\n部門、什麼計畫、寫多少錢是一回事，在最後執行的時候，那個不是差 10%、20%，那個是差了\n協 3\n百分之兩百多。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:25.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:46.970000+08:00","text":"我看了這個數字以後就一直在思考，我們很仔細地針對每一個計畫案的內容跟\n數字來進行討論或者是來進行預算的監督，到底是在做什麼事情，就這個部分是不是可以先請\n教一下法務部跟主計長？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:46.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:49.972000+08:00","text":"請他們稍微說明一下，讓大家可以理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:49.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:50.972000+08:00","text":"您現在是提 A、B 兩個問題嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:50.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:51.972000+08:00","text":"A 就是法務部這邊執行的情況；B 是請主計長針對預算如果\n超用的話說明怎麼辦。是。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:51.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:52.972000+08:00","text":"那我們先請主計長回答之後再回到法務部這邊，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:52.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:53.848000+08:00","text":"陳主計長，現在黃國昌總召提出這\n個問題，請答復，好嗎？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:08:53.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:08:53.888000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:09:13.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:09:40.083000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們本來是同計畫就沒有所謂的勻支、流用的問題，當初這個部分就是\n因為是在同計畫裡面，然後後來又因為有法令修正通過，所以有一些項目必須要執行，所以這\n個部分是在同計畫中的項目裡面來做執行，並沒有所謂的用途別流用的問題，所以這個部分我\n們就沒有涉及到流用的問題，以上補充。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:09:43.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:09:53.137000+08:00","text":"我再進一步請教一下我們的主計長，您所講的同計畫指的是最上位的那個計畫嗎？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:09:53.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:09:55.279000+08:00","text":"那個最上位的計畫的名稱是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:09:55.279000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:09:56.890000+08:00","text":"是促進轉型正義的計畫這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:09:56.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:25.550000+08:00","text":"所以你是說在促進轉型正義的這個計畫裡，雖然我們一開始針對各個部會要執行的工\n作進行了分配，但是一旦這個預算過了以後，不管過的金額是多少，各個部會到底最後要執行\n多少其實都沒有關係，因為都是在同一個計畫項下嘛？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:25.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:38.968000+08:00","text":"不是，這個部分因為有一個管理會，所以這個部分如果有一些修正計畫，就提到管\n理會來報告、來審查，在審查通過以後，就照管理會的審查結論來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:38.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:52.386000+08:00","text":"好，那我再進一步具體請教，這個計畫總共的數額是多少錢？一億……","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:52.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:53.146000+08:00","text":"一億四千九。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:53.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:54.146000+08:00","text":"一億四千九。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:54.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:56.607000+08:00","text":"所謂的管理費裡面編了多少錢？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:56.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:10:59.987000+08:00","text":"不是，不是管理費，是說管理委員會……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:10:59.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:01.388000+08:00","text":"剛剛你不是說管理費嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:01.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:06.429000+08:00","text":"管理委員會，它會經過管理委員會的審查。是。然後……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:07.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:10.989000+08:00","text":"但是所謂管理委員會的審查，也是行政機關內部嘛！是。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:12.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:18.591000+08:00","text":"跟我現在在意的是立法機關的監督，恐怕是兩個不同層次的事情嘛！協 4是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:21.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:38.895000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是在這個一億四千多萬裡面，經過行政機關內部自己所設的管理委員會\n，各個部會裡面，它的錢要怎麼花、要怎麼支應，只要是在一個這麼大的計畫範圍當中，其實\n都可以用？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:40.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:45.333000+08:00","text":"對，一般如果說它這個部分沒有涉及到用途別的流用，是裡面內部計畫……","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:45.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:47.535000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，先停一下啦！是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:11:48.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:11:59.586000+08:00","text":"我們現在在討論的問題其實沒這麼複雜，我一開始請教你的時候，你已經說得很清楚\n了，在同一個計畫下沒有所謂流用，也沒有所謂勻支的問題。是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:00.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:12:35.172000+08:00","text":"因此，我剛剛請教的這個大的計畫，就是促進轉型正義的這個計畫，這個計畫有一億\n四千多萬嘛，所以按照你剛剛的說明跟定義，這個都是在同一個計畫項下，沒有勻支的問題，\n沒有流用的問題，唯一的問題就是在你們行政部門內部設一個管理委員會，然後那個管理委員\n會可以決定這個錢要怎麼分配、到哪個部會、用在什麼用途、用多少錢，我這樣的理解應該是\n正確的嘛？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:35.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:12:38.135000+08:00","text":"他們要提計畫給委員會來審查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:38.135000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:12:39.135000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:39.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:12:51.242000+08:00","text":"委員會審查，或者是哪一個單位執行有賸餘，這個部分就會移到由哪一個部會再來\n增加執行，是這樣，所以這個部分就會透過委員會來做一個運用。對啦！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:51.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:12:53.343000+08:00","text":"就如同我剛剛所說的嘛！是。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:54.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:12:56.925000+08:00","text":"你所講的委員會也還是在你們行政部門內部的委員會嘛！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:12:59.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:04.275000+08:00","text":"跟我在這邊所關心的立法部\n門監督的問題，是兩個不同層次的事情嘛！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:13:05.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:26.587000+08:00","text":"因為這個事情講清楚，我覺得會比較好，所謂比較\n好，也讓我們立委就很清楚地知道，我們立法院在這邊審預算的時候，其實沒有必要看一個計\n畫下面個別細項的東西，因為那些細項的東西其實毫無意義啊！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:13:26.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:40.363000+08:00","text":"從國會監督的角度來講，因為\n過了以後，到行政部門內部，要用到哪個計畫，透過你們的分配機制、管理機制，要怎麼樣分\n配，這個都是行政部門自己可以決定的事嘛！","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T10:13:41.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:43.806000+08:00","text":"因為它還是同一個計畫，但是沒有特別……是啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:13:44.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:46.729000+08:00","text":"您講過的話就不用再複述了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:13:46.729000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:53.776000+08:00","text":"所以對我們來講，重要的只有當初那個計畫，那\n個最高的計畫裡面編多少錢，裡面其他細的項目，其實意義不是很大，因為到了最後，你還是\n可以透過管理委員會所謂的機制，然後去做分配嘛，這也是為什麼我們現在看到法務部本來是\n386 萬，現在預計到年底執行要八百多萬，就是透過剛剛主計長所講的那個分配機制在分配。是。","quality":0.227},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:13:53.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:13:54.176000+08:00","text":"我這樣的理解應該沒有錯誤吧？是。協 5OK！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:14:23.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:14:26.184000+08:00","text":"接下來兩位委員發言，一個吳思瑤委員，一個陳玉珍委員。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:14:26.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:14:35.573000+08:00","text":"但是容我提醒一下，本案我們已\n經送院會了，如果沒有其他議題……\n吳思瑤幹事長請發言，陳玉珍委員請準備。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:14:35.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:14:54.357000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛本來要爭取發言，也是因為剛剛院長一開始對本案已經裁示要送院會了，\n所以我本來也不想再發言，但是我覺得剛剛黃總召的釐清，那我也再來補充作一下釐清跟說明\n，看主計長對於我們的理解，因為讓大家可以更了解促轉基金怎麼使用。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:14:55.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:15:19.438000+08:00","text":"促轉基金過去是促轉\n會，因為促轉會退場之後，就由國發會來接手，所以促轉會針對促進轉型正義基金，組成了管\n理委員會，也就是如同我們其他政府部門設定的基金一樣，都會有管理委員會，然後基金的支\n用，也會有促轉基金的收支保管運用辦法，類似這樣的運作機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:15:20.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:15:51.919000+08:00","text":"而剛剛黃國昌委員所垂詢的\n事情都可以在行政院主管促轉基金附屬單位預算這一本的第 18 頁可以清楚地看到，也就是今（\n113）年度編列了 1 億 4,973 萬，這筆費用包括有業務宣傳費、有推展費，以及最大項的 1.4 億是\n用在捐助、補助及獎助，那捐助、補助及獎助用在哪裡呢？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:15:52.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:05.010000+08:00","text":"它的支用遊戲規則是這樣的：是補\n助行政院所屬中央二級機關來辦理跟轉型正義有關的政策研議、執行、研究及教育推廣。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:05.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:21.718000+08:00","text":"換言\n之，各個部會可以依這個計畫的主題去提起計畫，請這個管理委員會審查，如果獲得核可，就\n依據促轉基金的收支保管及運用辦法來支用。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:22.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:44.168000+08:00","text":"所以以 113 年度來講，內政部有來申請，教育部、\n法務部、衛福部、文化部、原民會、國發會都有相關的申請案，經過基金管理委員會的審查，\n認為這個計畫是跟這個基金的主體計畫相符，所以就予以核准支用。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:44.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:57.675000+08:00","text":"今天立委在這裡針對決算行使我們的監督權，針對每個部會依規則來申請的經費用得\n是否到位，所以這是我們今天在這裡討論這個預算……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:57.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:57.995000+08:00","text":"等一下啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:58.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:58.335000+08:00","text":"院長，好啦，好啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:58.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:58.476000+08:00","text":"不要趕我。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:58.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:16:59.136000+08:00","text":"大概就是剛剛主計長說的這個部分。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:16:59.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:01.158000+08:00","text":"對於這個案子，我們回到民進黨黨團，就是有疑\n義，就由院會處理，但是該釐清的就釐清，謝謝。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:01.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:01.298000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:01.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:01.518000+08:00","text":"請陳玉珍委員，請控制時間，謝謝。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:01.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:02.459000+08:00","text":"好，我很快，因為這個已經保留。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:02.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:35.199000+08:00","text":"我針對昨天問的問題，請他們提供的資料講清楚，\n因為剛剛我在議場前面聽到「吳造謠」委員、吳思瑤委員講說陳玉珍是不理性的立委，所以我\n一定要把我提出來的問題好好地、理性地問一下。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:37.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:57.467000+08:00","text":"第一個就是昨天我們在這邊的時候，我看國發會原來給我的表裡頭有一個沒有執行的，還有\n應該付的錢裡頭有一筆是法律費用，就是律師的費用是 7 萬 5,000 元，當然，我想昨天因為很匆\n忙，你們沒有辦法完全提供，但是在你們今天所提供的所有資料裡頭、在法務部的資料裡頭，\n我也沒有看到有關律師的費用，沒有列在這個計畫裡頭，不知道原因是什麼？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:57.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:58.467000+08:00","text":"協 6\n沒關係，因為我們時間寶貴，請會後再提供相關資料，就是你們所有這些全部的，到底是哪\n些單位支用了多少錢、什麼單位得標、執行的結果是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:58.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:17:59.467000+08:00","text":"請提供資料給我們參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:17:58.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:18:29.271000+08:00","text":"我舉一\n個例子來講，像剛剛……不要再講「吳造謠」，剛剛吳思瑤委員根據……因為他剛剛有說按照\n那個計畫嘛！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:18:29.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:18:49.926000+08:00","text":"而我也看到你們推進轉型正義基金計畫申請及管考作業要點第十點有說，如果執\n行進度落後逾 10%，應就落後事項提出說明及因應對策，這是你們的作業要點嘛！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:18:50.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:01.352000+08:00","text":"那我明白地\n看到，在這裡頭有一個內政部的部分，按照你們提供的表格，到目前為止是執行 56.13%，這不\n只是落後 10%，而是遠遠落後 30%以上！","quality":0.691},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:01.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:04.954000+08:00","text":"針對百分之二、三十的落後，是不是有請這些相關單\n位提出計畫、報告呢？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:04.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:05.454000+08:00","text":"或者是……這個我想也要請你們提供資料給我們審酌。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:12.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:20.784000+08:00","text":"另外，既然在這些委員會審查通過的計畫裡頭，你們可以這樣挪用的話，我不知道這個委員\n會的存在意義在哪裡？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:21.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:21.424000+08:00","text":"是不是因為他們不夠權威？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:21.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:37.436000+08:00","text":"他們審查過的計畫被下面的執行人覺得：你\n們的計畫根本就不應該這個 100 萬、這個 200 萬，應該是這個 1,000 萬、這個 10 萬，所以我請\n你們提供這個所謂審查委員會的名單給我們，瞭解為什麼他們如此被蔑視？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:38.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:19:47.303000+08:00","text":"就以上這三點，就是這個計畫，因為你們提供的資料不實，昨天告訴我說……\n還有一點，最後一點最重要，因為這跟金門地區有關係。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:19:49.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:02.435000+08:00","text":"關於金門、馬祖政治暴力創傷療癒\n需求工作模式探究，昨天在這裡明明白白的會議紀錄有，我問這個計畫是多少錢，他們說 50 萬\n，今天給我的資料是 213 萬！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:02.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:06.659000+08:00","text":"所以我們沒有通過立法院職權行使法的相關條文，你們在這裡說\n謊，我們就沒辦法罰你們！","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:06.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:08.900000+08:00","text":"是多少就多少，這個要照實說！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:09.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:16.066000+08:00","text":"我以上所提的這幾點，請列入會議紀錄，請他們會後提供資料過來，審查委員會的委員、執\n行落後有沒有……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:18.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:28.695000+08:00","text":"大家都是同樣的事一直在講，但是剛才有一點，行政部門所有審查委員的名單都是要\n去識別化的……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:29.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:29.996000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:29.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:31.096000+08:00","text":"你怕公布這些名單嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:31.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:33.318000+08:00","text":"沒有，所有的審查委員名單都要去識別化。","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:33.318000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:35.132750+08:00","text":"這個是審查可以給誰預算，我們審查大法官的名單都不……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:35.132750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:36.947500+08:00","text":"去識別化……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:36.947500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:38.762250+08:00","text":"你擔心什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:38.762250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:40.577000+08:00","text":"裡面有什麼貓膩？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:40.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:41.478000+08:00","text":"什麼叫去識別化？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:42.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:43.320000+08:00","text":"我不用提供他們的個人資料喔！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:43.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:50.068000+08:00","text":"我\n只需要名單，看哪些人是審查委員會的成員，你這裡頭是不是因為……你們在裡面養人還是怎\n麼樣？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:50.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:53.231000+08:00","text":"你看原住民委員會諮詢名單是去識別化的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:53.231000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:54.231000+08:00","text":"換下一題了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:53.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:53.872000+08:00","text":"這件事有沒有領錢啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:53.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:54.192000+08:00","text":"有領國家的錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:57.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:58.028000+08:00","text":"院長，我一個程序問題。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:58.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:20:59.028000+08:00","text":"好，蔡易餘書記長有程序問題，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:20:58.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:13.054000+08:00","text":"院長，這是程序問題，因為你主持會議嘛，我覺得每一個委員在發言的時候，基本的\n禮貌要有，在稱呼別的委員的時候，用這樣不禮貌的……\n協 7","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:13.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:15.155000+08:00","text":"那我現場道歉，他叫吳思瑤，不是「吳造謠」……你看！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:15.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:17.156000+08:00","text":"不好意思，說錯話了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:17.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:18.016000+08:00","text":"沒有，這是故意的嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:19.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:20.297000+08:00","text":"這是一個故意的行為，所以我覺得……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:20.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:22.870000+08:00","text":"他說我不理性耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:22.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:26.573000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:29.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:33.037000+08:00","text":"剛才陳玉珍委員所提所有索取的資料，麻煩請國發會劉主委這邊準備，請送陳玉珍委員這邊\n來參考，好嗎？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:33.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:33.197000+08:00","text":"請劉主委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:33.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:33.697000+08:00","text":"好，我們會準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:42.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:43.862000+08:00","text":"非常感謝劉主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:44.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:49.245000+08:00","text":"國發會，主委跟所有列席的國發會官員就請離席，好嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:49.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:21:49.385000+08:00","text":"謝謝大家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:21:50.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:22:01.072000+08:00","text":"我們接下來進入第 91 案、第 92 案、第 93 案、第 94 案，我們這四個案，現在張啓楷委員所\n提第 91 案減列 2 億元。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:22:02.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:22:02.793000+08:00","text":"張啓楷委員在現場，請發言。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:22:06.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:22:32.847000+08:00","text":"這個案子是臺灣民怨最深、人民最生氣的案子，而且到目前為止，連審計部都不願意\n核銷，這筆錢目前連審計部都沒有完成核銷的程序，所以我一共提了四個案子跟這個有關，都\n是進口雞蛋出了問題、超思的問題。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:22:32.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:22:48.171000+08:00","text":"第一個，我要求減列 2 億，是因為它用了農業金庫發展基\n金的錢，可是農業金庫發展基金的目的是為了造福民眾跟扶植農業發展，請問進口雞蛋有造福\n到我們國內的農民嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:22:48.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:22:49.471000+08:00","text":"有發展農業發展嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:22:49.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:22:55.493000+08:00","text":"到現在每天不是缺蛋，就是蛋不夠，還在惡性循環\n當中。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:22:56.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:23:42.105000+08:00","text":"第二個，監察院在 113 年的 8 月 30 日發布的調查報告提到，因為農業部跟中央畜產會疏於掌\n握民間企業自行進口的數量，也沒有確實掌握國內雞蛋產量已經慢慢回穩，導致同年 7 月份就\n出現庫存超過了 55 萬顆剩下的蛋，到同一年的 9 月 27 日，逾期的雞蛋高達 5,429 萬顆，導致我\n們人民民脂民膏損失了，監察院算出來的，損失費用高達 5 億 2,992 萬元，監察院明確講這個有\n缺失。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:23:44.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:23:46.330000+08:00","text":"所以我要求減列 1 億 5,000 萬。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:23:46.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:24:22.849000+08:00","text":"第三個案子是產銷出了問題，監察院調查報告的意見九裡面講到，因為農業部疏於跟衛福部\n共同去研商進口雞蛋洗選的日期，沒有去積極輔導業者洗蛋之後，有效日期的計算方式，也就\n是監察院對於有效日期的保存期限是有相當疑慮的，這也是為什麼在去年我們吃到了一些壞蛋\n、買到了一些壞蛋，所以我要求針對這個項目減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:24:22.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:24:52.846000+08:00","text":"另外一個是洗產地的問題，監察院報告明確指出，農業部委託的雞蛋洗選業者在進口雞蛋以\n後，產地不是寫國外的產地，不是巴西，也不是土耳其，直接標示成臺灣，而且這個加工業者\n把超過 34 萬公斤的盒蛋加工變成液蛋以後，產地標示的也是臺灣，這是所謂的洗產地，所以我\n要求這個項目減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:24:52.846000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:24:55.832000+08:00","text":"所以我提出了四筆，從它的設置目的違反了農業發展基金造福農民跟發展農業，減列 2 億；\n然後浪費了我們人民的公帑，要求減列 1 億 5,000 萬；另外，害我們吃到壞蛋，減列 1,000 萬；\n另外，洗產地的問題減列 1,000 萬，以上。協 8","quality":0.217},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:24:55.832000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:24:58.818000+08:00","text":"謝謝張啓楷委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:24:58.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:24:59.379000+08:00","text":"接下來請張嘉郡委員發言，蔡易餘書記長請準備。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:25:25.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:26:00.727000+08:00","text":"基本上國民黨黨團這裡是支持民眾黨黨團針對農業發展基金使用的細節應該要能夠增\n進農民福利，這是非常重要的，因為這個雞蛋進口案已經是一個弊案，也顯示出農業基金使用\n的浮濫，可以說是沒有任何的規範，這一點我覺得等一下可能農業部也要好好解釋一下，農業\n發展基金本來就是應該要促進農民福利跟農業發展，為什麼會拿來補貼進口雞蛋呢？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:26:00.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:26:11.495000+08:00","text":"這對於農\n民的福利跟農業發展有什麼任何的幫助嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:26:11.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:26:18.822000+08:00","text":"如果這個基金可以這樣子浮濫使用的話，是不是侵\n占了農民真正的需求？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:26:19.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:26:28.350000+08:00","text":"農民真正的需求沒有受到照顧，而這一筆基金拿去用做其他的作為，為\n什麼農業部可以這樣子做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:26:28.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:06.395000+08:00","text":"所以民眾黨所提出的減列，包括 2 億或者是 1.5 億，當然我們不希望\n影響到實際照顧農民的需求，但我覺得可能除了刪減部分之外，也應該要予以凍結，請農業部\n提出實際這筆基金運用的規範，要符合它設置的用途跟目的，假設它的使用都跟它的用途跟設\n置目的不符的話，那對農民也是一種損失啊！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:08.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:13.520000+08:00","text":"這一筆農業發展基金等於是愛怎麼用就怎麼用，\n我覺得這對農民是非常地不公平，謝謝。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:15.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:16.363000+08:00","text":"謝謝張嘉郡委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:16.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:20.467000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘書記長發言完畢就請陳部長回答，好嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:20.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:20.667000+08:00","text":"請蔡書記長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:22.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:22.985000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:24.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:27:57.645000+08:00","text":"這一筆是農業發展基金，而且它是用在產銷調節，基本上產銷調節對於農\n民是非常地重要，現在雖然已經 12 月了，但是 12 月一樣會有很多農產品會出來，包括番茄類\n、玉米，甚至是其他在水產品的部分，包括虱目魚事實上現在都陸續要出來，就漁民來說，目\n前也確實虱目魚的價格都已經低了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:27:58.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:28:14.546000+08:00","text":"所以我認為在整個產銷調節的時候，它面對的是千百種的\n農產品品項，尤其今年颱風又特別多，我們知道，颱風多對於這一些蔬菜類的價格就會有很大\n的波動。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:28:14.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:28:23.090000+08:00","text":"所以我們是具體建議，民眾黨的提案是針對 111 年跟 112 年那兩年雞蛋的狀況，那個時候雞蛋\n主要的狀況是因為禽流感造成缺蛋，所以有緊急進口的必要，當然後來有發生一些程序上的問\n題。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:28:39.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:28:56.602000+08:00","text":"民眾黨想要檢討這件事，我們也不反對檢討這一件事情，但是我們處理在 113 年產銷調節的\n預算，那感覺上就變得是針對農業部，然後特別要去處罰它。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:28:57.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:29:25.012000+08:00","text":"事實上他們應該要接受調查，當\n時事件辦理不妥的地方應該要受到處罰，結果你現在去砍 113 年的預算，誠如我剛剛講的，今年\n的颱風又特別多，看起來今年產銷調節用的預算會比較多，尤其是就我了解，目前已經用了將\n近 3.5 億，到年底一定還會再繼續使用在剛才說的一些品項上。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:29:25.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:29:43.928000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得如果真的要刪，那就\n酌刪就好，看 500 萬還是 1,000 萬，酌刪一樣達到他們的效果，因為一樣是要檢討 111、112 年\n度所發生的情況，而且事實上這個議題也講了好久嘛！","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:29:43.928000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:29:59.615000+08:00","text":"從林北好油的事件到現在，大家都一直\n深度地在討論整個雞蛋進口的狀況，都有在討論，也有發動調查，目前就讓它進行司法調查，\n該處罰的部分就要處罰，但是不要動到產銷調節的預算。","quality":0.263},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:29:59.615000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:30:15.302000+08:00","text":"我來自農業縣，我真的覺得這整個預\n算對農民來說非常地重要，要刪就酌刪就好。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:30:15.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:30:22.354000+08:00","text":"陳部長麻煩一下，針對剛才 3 位委員所提的請您答復之外，也請跟大家報告一下目前\n執行情況，謝謝。協 9","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:30:24.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:30:25.700000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:30:28.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:30:35.222000+08:00","text":"針對民眾黨張啓楷委員所提的這些疑問，還有剛才委員的疑問，我\n做幾個說明。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:30:35.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:31:08.100000+08:00","text":"第一個說明，在農發基金項下的產銷調節，它最主要的目的就是在穩定我們國內\n這些重要農產品的價格跟量，每一年我們針對包括颱風來的時候的產銷調節狀況，也針對當時\n被中國暫時停止輸入農產品以後，對國內造成的一些影響，所以我們在內銷、外銷及加工的部\n分，都是用這條經費來處理。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:31:10.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:31:43.808000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，我們在這個項目裡面大概是編列 5.01 億，雖然到 11\n月底它的執行率已經達到 68%，但是因為計畫已經核定了，所以到年底預計應該會全部用完，\n甚至可能還會不夠，因為後續還有很多災後還在處理的過程，特別是這三個颱風後續還在處理\n的部分，我們還在做積極的輔導，這是第一個要說明的部分。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:31:44.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:32:18.488000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，剛才張委員所提到有關於雞蛋的部分，我想有幾個說明：第一個部分，當初進\n口雞蛋之所以用這筆經費，是因為那時候國內的雞蛋產能不足，所以我們從國外進口，國外進\n口的時候，才有機會讓國內的蛋雞產業做復養，所以基本上這整個還是符合基金的用途，屬於\n農業發展，而且這些經費也經過特收基金管理委員會同意我們來使用。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:32:20.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:32:44.419000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，有關於過\n期蛋的部分，我們當初標示過期蛋時，因為有效期限是根據製程去決定的，而國內的習慣就是\n標示一個月，然後每一個進口雞蛋都有它的有效期限，我們送到洗選廠（場）時都有講，在歷\n次委員會我也都有說明。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T10:32:45.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:33:09.735000+08:00","text":"另外一個議題就是，有關於 108 年標示的部分，108 年沒有標示的問題\n，因為 108 年我們是進口雞蛋以後，跟國內的雞蛋用換的方式，到加工廠去做一些蛋糕等烹調\n類的原料，這個部分已經經過實質轉型，就沒有所謂產地標示的問題，以上簡單說明。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:33:13.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:33:14.888000+08:00","text":"張啓楷委員，我提醒你看，就是剛才用了 68%，預計年底可能會……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:33:14.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:33:41.785000+08:00","text":"我看了農業部的資料，目前農業部基金的執行率是 66%，包括有一筆 112 年度過期\n雞蛋再利用的處理計畫，花了四千多萬，這個就是把它當成堆肥，就是剛剛我在講的，連監察\n院都認為是有問題，浪費那麼多民脂民膏。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:33:42.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:33:47.108000+08:00","text":"所以今天我會非常堅持這 4 筆刪除的錢，我會非常\n堅持！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:33:48.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:33:59.796000+08:00","text":"而且我會要求一個，最重要的就是農業部現在在做一件事情，你現在的決算是連審計部\n都不核准，你要怎麼去處理這件事情？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:33:59.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:07.922000+08:00","text":"你搬了人民納稅錢去，所以第一個，你要把責任追清楚\n，你要把該追的錢去追回來，這樣對人民才有交代啊！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:08.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:09.924000+08:00","text":"要不然立法院怎麼同意這筆錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:09.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:13.906000+08:00","text":"第二個\n，你講產銷很重要，你目前已經用了 66%，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:13.906000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:21.476400+08:00","text":"我剛剛看了，農糧產品已經花了 67%，漁\n產品小計大概也花了 52%，畜產品大概已經花了 73%，你該用的、對於農民有利的，你還是繼\n續去用，可是我剛剛講的，你光是要怎麼去跟全民交代你浪費的民脂民膏，第一個，你責任追\n清楚了沒有？","quality":0.283},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:21.476400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:29.046800+08:00","text":"第二個，審計部不核銷你這筆錢，你要怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:29.046800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:36.617200+08:00","text":"第三個，你浪費人民的民脂民膏\n，你錢要怎麼追回來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:36.617200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:44.187600+08:00","text":"你不能拿我們的錢去補給中央畜產會，然後中央畜產會說，我們人民的\n錢已經給了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:44.187600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:51.758000+08:00","text":"哪有這種事情！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:51.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:53.239000+08:00","text":"這麼嚴重，浪費民脂民膏，我們就追到底啊！","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:53.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:53.479000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:53.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:34:56.601000+08:00","text":"嘉郡委員請，然後吳思瑤幹事長請準備。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:34:56.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:35:00.483000+08:00","text":"基本上我們是同意民眾黨黨團要求的一定要能夠講清楚、說明白，說這一筆費用到底\n是不是花得不正確？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:35:00.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:35:23.238000+08:00","text":"因為監察院在 113 年 8 月 30 日就公布，農業部進口雞蛋的專案未實際掌握\n民間企業自行進口的數量，而且也沒有掌握國內雞蛋產量回穩的情況，導致 7 月的庫存量逾 55\n協 10\n萬顆，然後同年 9 月過期雞蛋累計超過 5,429 萬顆，損失費用高達 5 億 2,997 萬。","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:35:23.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:36:05.123000+08:00","text":"我們希望的是\n，這筆錢一定要用在真的是跟我們農民、我們的農產品有關的，而不是用在進口雞蛋上面。","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:36:05.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:36:22.792000+08:00","text":"當\n然，剛才主委有講說他們有處理的流程，包括他們相關的規範都有做出優化、都有做出調整，\n可不可以也提供你們對於這些相關的規範、這個基金使用的規範，你們到底做出了什麼樣的調\n整？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:36:23.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:36:27.154000+08:00","text":"也應該提供給大家知道，因為包括蔡易餘委員講的沒錯，我們都是來自農業縣，我們應該\n為農民把關，這些要調節產銷的基金就應該用在真正農民需要的刀口之上，而不是用在這種浮\n濫的、甚至產生一堆弊案的這種雞蛋專案之上，謝謝。","quality":0.469},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:36:34.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:36:56.054000+08:00","text":"而且我必須要補充一下，這當然是已經\n過去了，但是我們為什麼要這麼地認真檢討這件事情？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:36:56.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:37:01.256000+08:00","text":"就是希望這樣的事情不要再發生、不要\n再發生！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:37:03.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:37:10.800000+08:00","text":"過去就過去了，希望以後不要再發生一樣的事情，否則下次再來一個什麼樣子的弊案\n，我們也不知道嘛！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T10:37:11.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:37:12.861000+08:00","text":"好不好？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:37:12.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:37:13.802000+08:00","text":"謝謝張張嘉郡委員發言。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:37:14.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:37:16.583000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言完畢，我就要進行處理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:37:18.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:38:19.797000+08:00","text":"好，這個案子編列的預算數是 5.01 億，民眾黨提的案子總共有 4 個案子，加總起來\n要刪減的金額是 3.7 億，換言之，把整個農業發展基金用於產銷調節的項下是刪減了 73%，我想\n這樣一個數字到年底、到 11 月，應當已經支用了 3.4 億左右，我的資料是這樣，這整筆來辦理\n產銷調節計畫的基金，我想我非常同意委員們針對該監督的事項來努力監督，民眾黨委員對於\n雞蛋的事件、對於農業部提出來的很多提醒，農業部未來都要列為精進的作為，相關是否有弊\n，司法也在查、監察院也在調查。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:38:20.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:39:18.025000+08:00","text":"回到預算、行政部門的部分，我想這個刪減的比例實在高達 73%，這一筆錢都是用在農民身\n上，所有從各類的農糧產品到漁產品、到畜產品，不一而足，整個面對氣候的狀況、臨時突發\n的狀況或是國際的局勢，會衝擊農民生計的，其實我剛剛講農糧產品、漁產品、畜產品數十項\n，在野黨委員針對蛋的執行這一項絕對可以監督、提出異議，沒有問題，只是為了蛋這一項導\n致 73%的刪減額度，實在是在比例原則上，是真的要再審酌。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:39:18.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:40:19.690000+08:00","text":"我如果沒有聽錯，剛剛部長、啓楷委員也有提到，針對那個蛋的部分，後來因為那個蛋，然\n後去填堆肥大概是四千多萬，如果對於這個執行，它很直接就是那個蛋產生、增加的支出，委\n員對於那個蛋的政策執行有疑義，它增加國庫支出四千多萬，如果要給農業部這樣子的警示，\n我會覺得不然就刪 4,000 萬，這是我的看法，都比現在被砍掉 3.7 億，這些都是農民所需要的，\n吻仔魚、虱目魚、黑鮪魚、鬼頭刀、我們的洋蔥、鳳梨、甘藍、芒果、鳳梨、釋迦、秋刀魚、\n柑橘這些東西，我自己在北投也是有農產的，我們山上也有桶柑，這些是不是太傷及無辜了？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:40:20.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:40:26.953000+08:00","text":"所以如果針對蛋的部分，我具體聽到的項目就是那個 4,000 萬，我聽到，不曉得合不合宜？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:40:27.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:40:40.630000+08:00","text":"真的\n要酌刪，對於刪減的這個額度實在太過當了，在這裡為我們廣大的農民朋友他們對於產銷的調\n節獲得基金的挹注跟協助，這是大有必要。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:40:41.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:40:53.299000+08:00","text":"院長也對於農產非常了解，您也知道農民所需，所\n以這個部分是不是請民眾黨委員，勞煩在刪減的額度上再做斟酌，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:40:56.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:13.175000+08:00","text":"好，對不起，張啓楷委員請聽這裡，剛才吳思瑤委員所提的建議就是說您列了刪減 3.7 億，\n它現在占 73%，他希望能不能刪減 4,000 萬左右，請問你同不同意這樣子一個吳思瑤所提出來的\n……\n協 11","quality":0.616},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:16.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:25.022000+08:00","text":"剛剛總召說至少是 1 億，你們的思瑤才提了 4,000 萬，我跟你講現在最重要的是人民\n的氣沒有消，這目前還是民怨很高的一個案子啦，我這個要處理啦！","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:25.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:28.325000+08:00","text":"我建議這樣子，這個案子\n照我減列的先送到院會去，讓農業部去處理我剛剛……回應民眾的民怨，講清楚：第一個，到\n底審計部的這個錢沒有核銷，你要怎麼去處理；第二，你要追錢追責任嘛！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:42.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:43.716000+08:00","text":"跟民眾交代清楚，\n在院會……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:44.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:46.458000+08:00","text":"再來決定到底是要減列 1 億還是 4,000 萬，還是照我說的……","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:46.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:48.940000+08:00","text":"因為理由都講了非常多，啓楷委員，謝謝你。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:49.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:53.183000+08:00","text":"好，現在蔡易餘委員就針對同意不同意，好不\n好？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:53.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:58.347000+08:00","text":"稍微等一下，請蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:58.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:41:59.347000+08:00","text":"你先說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:41:58.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:42:11.582000+08:00","text":"好，我先說一下，就是說，因為它現在已經有執行，也執行 68%了，然後如果照這\n樣砍下去的話，會變成說之前執行了……對啊！","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:42:12.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:42:34.060000+08:00","text":"都不夠，所以說是不是先確定一件事情，如果\n要進入表決，然後要像張啓楷所說的砍這麼多，應該要砍在農業發展基金，而不要砍在產銷調\n節計畫裡面，因為產銷調節計畫裡面已經有使用的，那你現在把它砍了，它沒有辦法去找這個\n錢嘛！","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T10:42:35.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:43:06.563000+08:00","text":"再來第二個，事實上大家去思考，因為像我們昨天在處理國發會的出國旅費，國發會後\n來因為要被砍 190 萬，所以他們自己也去調整，他們原本規劃出國去做……它就取消了，所以\n我們現在如果砍了這些錢，萬一有什麼農產品事實上需要被執行要去做產銷調節的，農委會因\n為預算被砍了，結果就減少協助農民的力道，我們想要幫助這些農民，然後去做好監督，結果\n受災的是這些農民的百姓，我覺得我們這一件事再思考一下，如同我們幹事長說的，如果用\n4,000 萬針對雞蛋部分的支出把它砍掉，那這個是不是一個合理監督的範疇？","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:43:07.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:43:36.903000+08:00","text":"現在只要問接受不接受就好了，柯委員，其他的……","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:43:36.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:43:37.903000+08:00","text":"好，我講一下，我還沒講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:43:37.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:43:44.547000+08:00","text":"其他就請大家控制一下發言的範圍，好，請柯總召。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:43:45.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:44:28.759000+08:00","text":"我第一輪講，但是我聽了大家講話，我知道大家監督，監督可以，有問題移送法辦、\n靜待人家調查，但我今天針對這個事情要如何解決，我剛才有跟張啓楷委員講說，現在總共是 5\n億，產銷調節計畫 5 億，農委會今年用的已經超過 5 億了，不夠了，那你砍掉產銷調節計畫，\n後面還沒支出的部分完全沒有辦法動，所以你們……而且總共是不是砍了將近 70%？","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:44:28.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:44:30.300000+08:00","text":"做不到啦\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:44:30.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:44:42.668000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才跟張啓楷拜託，就是說你要砍多少，1 億、2 億，那是一回事，但是像蔡易餘委員\n剛剛講的，一定要科目自行調整，這樣才能夠處理。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:44:44.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:44:52.354000+08:00","text":"張啓楷委員說他知道，但是先到院會再來\n處理，我們今天就把它處理掉，在院會的表決哪裡有時間大家再去處理這些問題？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:44:52.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:44:56.036000+08:00","text":"你要砍多少\n我們都尊重，但是科目自行調整，在從農業基金項下，這樣才能夠解決嘛，否則的話它現在已\n經用都不夠了。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:44:57.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:44:58.438000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召，請陳玉珍委員，請。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:08.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:45:32.235000+08:00","text":"當然我們也是非常支持農民，但是農業部重要，我們藉由預算的監督，讓農業部要意\n識到說農民需要的不是只有補助，農民還需要怎麼給他們一樣發展的機會，這個才是重點，那\n協 12\n既然預算如果是沒有通過，你們就先行去用的話，這種叫做先霸王硬上弓、先生米煮成熟飯以\n後，回頭要我們來追認嘛！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:32.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:45:33.235000+08:00","text":"所以我還是支持砍這個預算，讓農業部要深切地檢討，讓你們知道\n你們的工作不是只是撒幣，你們要幫助整個農業的發展，這個才是重點，所以本席還是支持砍\n預算。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:33.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:45:34.437000+08:00","text":"我跟大家報告一下，不是只有我最在乎，人民最在乎的是審計部不核定的錢到底要怎\n麼辦，你們要交代清楚，農業部要交代清楚，這個結要解開啊！","quality":0.475},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:34.437000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:45:41.780333+08:00","text":"你拿人民的納稅錢將近十億出\n去，這個錢審計部不認，你要怎麼解決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:41.780333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:45:49.123667+08:00","text":"這是一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:49.123667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:45:56.467000+08:00","text":"第二個，要把錢、把責任，錢你要追回來\n，要把責任追清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:45:56.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:20.457000+08:00","text":"這三個點：審計部不同意你們核錢，這你們到底要怎麼解決？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:20.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:26.721000+08:00","text":"第二個，把\n責任追清楚；把錢追清楚，浪費人民的民脂民膏，把錢追回來。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:26.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:33.146000+08:00","text":"這三個問題先解決，然後到了\n院會我們再決定你的執行率有多少，像你目前是 66%，對不對？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:33.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:34.146000+08:00","text":"68%，到時候你的執行率根本也不到嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:34.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:35.146000+08:00","text":"這是一個嘛！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:33.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:34.607000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:34.607000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:39.234857+08:00","text":"第二個，讓全民知道\n你是負責任的，你要去解決問題，才有後面這個問題嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:39.234857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:43.862714+08:00","text":"你到目前態度都沒出來，也不解決民\n怨，不解決人民要求的，憑什麼過這筆預算？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:43.862714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:48.490571+08:00","text":"啓楷委員，我提醒因為你是提案委員，你現在同不同意？","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:48.490571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:53.118429+08:00","text":"剛才吳思瑤的你已經不同意了嘛！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:53.118429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:46:57.746286+08:00","text":"再來，柯總召提的項目自行調整……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:46:57.746286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:02.374143+08:00","text":"不同意啦！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T10:47:02.374143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:07.002000+08:00","text":"他們如果有解決方案提來，到時候院會再談。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:47:07.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:13.204000+08:00","text":"也是不同意，好，第 91 案、第 92 案、第 93 案、第 94 案，我們保留送院會處理。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:47:13.204000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:14.204000+08:00","text":"啓楷，審計部的部分決算處理，和這個沒有關係啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T10:47:14.204000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:15.204000+08:00","text":"那個到決算的時候再處理。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:47:13.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:29.892000+08:00","text":"我們補充宣告，昨天處理台糖公司第 4 案、第 5 案兩案保留，昨天沒有宣告清楚，我們補充\n宣告，謝謝。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:47:32.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:47:33.674000+08:00","text":"下面換教育組。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:49:04.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:49:28.620000+08:00","text":"院長，提醒一下，報告院長，有一個案子跟國民黨協調好的那一案，第 26 案同意改\n書面報告，這個有思銘委員同意的，所以要宣讀一下，謝謝。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:49:28.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:49:29.620000+08:00","text":"今天謝謝教育部鄭部長跟教育部所屬的各位官員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:49:29.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:49:30.620000+08:00","text":"現在進入教育部運動發展基金，但是第\n26 案黨團已經達成協議改為主決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:49:30.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:49:31.620000+08:00","text":"現在進入第 34 案，台灣民眾黨黨團提議減列 40%，請台灣民眾黨說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:49:31.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:02.456000+08:00","text":"第一個有關於……我先處理簡單的事情，因為現在院長處理第 34 案嘛！","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:03.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:06.861000+08:00","text":"因為現在體\n育署的應該就剩下我們黨團提的第 34 案跟第 40 案，應該沒有其他的案子嘛！","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:25.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:33.237000+08:00","text":"不好意思，因為體育署的部分只剩下我們台灣民眾黨黨團的第 34 案跟第 40 案嘛！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:34.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:40.545000+08:00","text":"第 34 案跟第 40 案這兩案如果院長同意的話，我們一併處理，速度會比較快一點。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:40.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:44.530000+08:00","text":"我想我們還是慢一點，因為我們每次……\n協 13","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:44.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:48.552000+08:00","text":"好，可以，那就慢慢來了，沒有啦，我本來是想要讓部長跟署長早一點離開這個地方\n，不過沒有關係，我尊重院長的議事主持。","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:48.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:49.552000+08:00","text":"因為我們老是覺得卡在一起、混在一起，事情更麻煩，乾脆……\n第 34 案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:49.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:50.252000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，沒有問題，絕對尊重院長的議事主持。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:50.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:50:55.896500+08:00","text":"第一個是第 34 案，你們前兩年就編的預算跟決算落差非常大，我們就具體講，到今年為止，\n這四千五百多萬的預算，你們執行多少了？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:50:55.896500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:01.541000+08:00","text":"鄭部長，您直接連線、直接回答，不用再經過我了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:01.541000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:07.185500+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:07.185500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:12.830000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心，到目前我們是 73%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:12.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:14.010000+08:00","text":"所以你們到年底要執行多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:40.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:48.089000+08:00","text":"就講具體的數字，這樣比較快一點，你本來是 4,555 萬\n嘛。對。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:48.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:50.811000+08:00","text":"那你們預計到年底要執行多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:51.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:51:59.336000+08:00","text":"因為你們前兩年的預算跟決算落差都蠻大的，所以你\n們到今年年底要執行到多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:51:59.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:00.596000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，大概 3,500 萬。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:00.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:01.297000+08:00","text":"3,500 萬，那我們這樣直接減 1,000 萬，好不好？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:05.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:07.402000+08:00","text":"你同意，這個案子就 OK 了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:07.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:08.643000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:08.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:13.825000+08:00","text":"鄭部長，現在黃國昌總召正式提出來，減列 40%改為減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:13.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:14.866000+08:00","text":"可以，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:14.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:15.907000+08:00","text":"好，我們也同意，就這樣處理。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:15.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:21.230000+08:00","text":"第 34 案，減列 1,000 萬，國民黨團有沒有意見？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:22.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:22.890000+08:00","text":"沒有，好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:22.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:23.890000+08:00","text":"就減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:23.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:24.890000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:23.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:52:26.713000+08:00","text":"現在進入第 40 案，台灣民眾黨團提出凍結 5%，請說明。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:52:28.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:53:15.544000+08:00","text":"就第 40 案的部分，我必須要先說明一下，我也要拜託教育部部長還有體育署署長，\n可能真的要再拜託你們，2017 年國民體育法的改革，我相信那個時候的改革是希望政府所有的\n錢都用到選手身上，這是我們所有納稅人大家共同的期待，當時我們的前總統蔡英文也清楚地\n講，協會存在的目的就是為了選手，當這個目的消失，或是它的功能被破壞的時候，協會沒有\n任何存在的意義。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:53:16.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:54:05.105000+08:00","text":"當 2017 年國民體育法通過了以後，這幾年下來，我相信部分不肖的協會怎麼\n樣胡搞瞎搞，去濫用體育署對協會的補助，這些事情我在歷次的質詢當中都講得非常清楚了，\n當然，其他各個部會有牽涉到的，包括審計部等等，他們也做了審計報告；體育署，你們說要\n找專業的會計師來進行查核，該給的時間我也給你們了，只不過我追了半天以後，你們會計師\n的查核報告還是只有給我摘要，沒有給我全部。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:54:06.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:54:38.932000+08:00","text":"第一個就是，第 40 案的這個部分，因為這個沒\n有經過協會，直接到小學，所以第 40 案的部分我同意直接改，你們給我書面報告就好了，但是\n協 14\n我要拜託教育部跟體育署，善意不是單方面的，第 40 案，我同意你們改的，提書面報告給我就\n好，我也不會凍，但你們該給我的東西要給我，包括會計師的查核報告，可以承諾嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:54:40.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:54:42.867000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，確實我們現在會計師已經完成初步報告跟建議，體育署會針對查核的事\n實裡面，再請這個協會做說明，我們在整個經費就會扣除。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:54:42.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:55:30.016000+08:00","text":"所以目前來講，體育署已經要求迷\n你足球協會繳回補助款 103 萬；另外，我們接著馬上要做的就是，除了請協會再釐清會計師所\n查核的以外，我們要根據這個來追繳，我們當然也會判斷來作最後的決議，追繳不合規的補助\n款，同時停止對這個協會補助五年，以目前的法令，最高的懲罰就是五年內都不予補助。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:55:30.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:55:32.018000+08:00","text":"目前\n的這個部分，我跟委員做這樣的補充說明。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:55:32.018000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:55:34.460000+08:00","text":"另外，有關經費上一些有疑慮的部分，審計部也已經移送檢調單位，這個部分也在這裡跟委\n員做這樣的報告。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:55:34.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:07.039000+08:00","text":"我已經釋出很大的善意，所以我就跟你說，這個案子我就不會堅持了，我只要你們給\n我書面報告，然後該給我的查核報告給我，這樣就好了，這樣部長可以同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:07.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:08.219000+08:00","text":"這個應該很簡\n單嘛？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:08.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:09.460000+08:00","text":"我說得滿清楚的吧。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:10.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:11.240000+08:00","text":"敬表同意，謝謝委員。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:11.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:17.502000+08:00","text":"OK，第 40 案就改主決議，提書面報告，請問各黨團有意見嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:17.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:19.382000+08:00","text":"沒意見，第 40 案就這樣子\n處理。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:20.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:21.423000+08:00","text":"謝謝教育部鄭部長、各位列席官員，謝謝！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:21.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:22.483000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:22.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:31.080000+08:00","text":"大家微笑離開。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:56:31.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:56:31.824000+08:00","text":"接下來交通組。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:57:11.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:57:26.949000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，我們現在交通的保留案共 10 案非營業基金，第一案是觀光發展基金，保\n留案號第 25 號。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:57:34.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:57:44.965000+08:00","text":"我們歡迎列席的交通部陳部長，熱情歡迎；還有觀光署的周署長，歡迎您；國\n家通訊傳播委員會在旁邊，沒關係。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:57:44.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:57:45.806000+08:00","text":"我們先處理交通部的部分。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:57:45.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:57:49.149000+08:00","text":"院長，對不起，有個會議詢問，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:57:49.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:57:49.610000+08:00","text":"抱歉、抱歉！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:57:50.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:01.322000+08:00","text":"馬上要進入交通部門，剛剛關於運發基金謝謝大家很快速的通過民眾黨的議案，也謝\n謝民眾黨委員相關的協助。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:02.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:12.433000+08:00","text":"我有一個問題確認一下，因為當初在教育及文化委員會的時候有把\n整個運發基金凍了 100 萬，我想替教育部請求一下，因為整個基金這樣被凍的話，它的基金用\n途被凍，沒有辦法超支併決算，所以希望能夠請求免予凍結，不曉得有沒有可能？","quality":0.479},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:12.433000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:18.713429+08:00","text":"它數額很少\n，只是它後續的程序沒有辦法做，有沒有可能？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:18.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:24.993857+08:00","text":"我先提出來，你們研究一下，因為那個數額也\n很少，所以等一下列為今天會議的一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:24.993857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:31.274286+08:00","text":"我們稍微等一下，我們先談交通，最後我們再來。協 15","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:31.274286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:37.554714+08:00","text":"所以就是運發基金的基金用途被凍結了 100 萬，是在委員會的決議，那爭取……因為\n未來如果這樣的話，在程序上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:37.554714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:43.835143+08:00","text":"我們回頭再來處理這個，我們先調一下資料。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:43.835143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:50.115571+08:00","text":"好，勞煩，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:50.115571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T10:58:56.396000+08:00","text":"針對交通部觀光署、觀光發展基金的部分，台灣民眾黨黨團提議減列 2,000 萬，凍結十分之\n一，請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召說明。","quality":0.204},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T10:58:56.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:00:08.712000+08:00","text":"第一個，我要再次的跟交通部還有觀光署說，在觀光發展基金裡面，基本上最重要的\n用途就是要促進我們國內的觀光產業，在促進國內觀光產業的時候，我們有限的資源要用在刀\n口上，你們用這個基金辦了很多的活動，我有的時候如果我有空，我的習慣是不會去參加那種\n活動，上去拿麥克風講話沒有意義；我的習慣是，要不然自己去、要不然派人去，他們會從頭\n到尾把你們那個活動舉辦的實際狀況全部都記錄下來，帶回來給我看，因為我覺得這才是一個\n最有效的監督方式。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:00:09.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:00:23.398000+08:00","text":"那我必須要重申，我對你們在辦一些活動的時候，你們辦活動的 KPI 真的\n要好好地評估、好好地使用！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:00:23.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:02.243000+08:00","text":"那我也可以打開天窗說亮話，這個案子我本來非常、非常地堅持\n，但是我們台灣民眾黨黨團前委員陳琬惠覺得東北部那邊的觀光……他幫你們開口，希望給觀\n光署機會，以後做得好一點，所以這個案子我不會堅持，請你們提書面資料，我相信這個善意\n釋放的很足夠了，我希望明年在執行這個基金預算的時候，不要再發生相同的狀況。以上。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:02.243000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:05.544000+08:00","text":"好，敬表同意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:05.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:11.489000+08:00","text":"黃國昌總召所提的第 25 案改主決議，改提書面報告，請問交通部跟觀光署？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:12.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:15.213000+08:00","text":"OK，各黨團可\n以接受？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:15.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:16.213000+08:00","text":"非常感謝，敬表……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:16.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:17.213000+08:00","text":"敬表同意講大聲一點！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:17.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:18.213000+08:00","text":"敬表同意，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:15.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:17.755000+08:00","text":"好，第 25 案就改主決議，提書面報告。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:18.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:22.079000+08:00","text":"謝謝交通部陳部長及各位列席官員，謝謝。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:22.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:38.279000+08:00","text":"接下來 NCC 共計 9 案，NCC 的陳代理主委，請坐，熱情歡迎您。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:42.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:49.407000+08:00","text":"現在處理第 39 案，有關基金用途，國民黨團陳菁徽委員提議凍結 20%，請國民黨團提出說明\n。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:49.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:49.607000+08:00","text":"張智倫委員，請。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:58.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:01:58.781000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:01:59.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:02:19.918000+08:00","text":"我想通訊傳播監督管理基金是我們全民所重視的，因為現在通訊傳播\n監督管理的主要目的是完備電信設備、技術、法規及應用業務等所需支出，而且我們人民希望\n它是要有效施政，讓人民有感及安心，而不是來監督人民。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:02:20.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:02:59.710000+08:00","text":"考量日前有執政黨前官員公開表示，他可以透過基地臺的訊號來比對，即可掌握不同公民活\n動參與族群之間包含年齡、人員等個資的差異，引發民眾對自己的個資隱私權遭到電信業務監\n控之恐慌，至今還沒有一個正式的解釋，也沒有化解人民的疑慮，我們是希望可以見到主管機\n關 NCC（國家通訊傳播委員會）有進一步的說明，可是現在還沒有任何的說明。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:00.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:03:19.939000+08:00","text":"所以本黨團提\n協 16\n議要凍結「基金用途」預算數 20%，而且限期於一個月內向本院就「國人參與公民活動遭電信\n監控之改善規劃及有關執法作業說明」提出專案報告，並經同意後，始得動支。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:20.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:03:20.359000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:20.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:03:25.376333+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，謝謝廖委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:25.376333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:03:30.393667+08:00","text":"關於這一案，先前在交通委員會……","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:30.393667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:03:35.411000+08:00","text":"抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，張委員，非常抱歉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:35.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:03:49.222000+08:00","text":"這一案我們先前已經啟動行政調查\n，也找三家電信業者以及是方電訊來查，並會同第三方的專家、資策會那邊做行政調查，並沒\n有查到任何違失。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:03:50.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:04:12.739000+08:00","text":"先前在交通委員會的時候也有做過一些報告，也將書面報告提供給交通委員\n會的委員，針對後續的精進部分，我們也針對三家電信業者的定期化契約有所調整，要求一定\n要去識別化之後才可以提供給第三方。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:04:13.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:04:19.685000+08:00","text":"另外一點是要依法或經過本人同意才可以做目的外的蒐\n集。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:04:20.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:04:21.105000+08:00","text":"第三個是一定要提供 up-and-out 的選擇權。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:04:21.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:04:25.347000+08:00","text":"第二部分，我們也請業者要修正它的個資告知聲明事項，包括去識別化的技術採用什麼，還\n有它的 up-and-ou 管道為何。","quality":0.549},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:04:39.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:00.164000+08:00","text":"在進一步落實法制化的部分，我們也在依個資法授權訂定的個資安全維護辦法裡要求電信業\n者，如果它要做去識別化的一些應用，一定要揭露去識別化的方式、技術，另外還要取得國際\n或相關去識別化的認證，像 ISO 29100 或 CNS 29100-2。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:00.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:00.564000+08:00","text":"以上先簡單報告說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:09.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:15.258000+08:00","text":"好，主計室蔡主任也在場，現在的執行情況可以跟大家報告一下嗎？","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:15.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:40.492000+08:00","text":"是，報告院長跟各位委員，我們基金用途全年度預算數 5.16 億元，到 11 月執行 3.21\n億元，預估 12 月可以執行 1.83 億元，全年度可以執行 5 億 477 萬元，整個用途的部分，在交委\n會跟協商時已經刪減了 680 萬元。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:40.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:41.374000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:43.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:50.727000+08:00","text":"各黨團幹部，針對這個執行的情況，在年底它大概還剩下 1,000 萬左右，請問各黨團幹部能\n不能表示一下意見？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:50.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:51.727000+08:00","text":"沒有用完的就刪掉，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:51.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:52.727000+08:00","text":"報告，我們預估剩餘數是 1,100 萬元，但是交委會跟協商已經刪減 680 萬元，因此剩\n餘數大概是 400 萬左右。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:52.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:53.727000+08:00","text":"那就刪掉啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:53.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:54.727000+08:00","text":"刪掉就好了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:54.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:55.727000+08:00","text":"刪掉沒用完的，再刪 400 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:52.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:53.020000+08:00","text":"他現在預估在年底還剩下 400 萬左右，請問各黨團能不能就這一點來表達意見？","quality":0.548},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:53.020000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:05:58.359250+08:00","text":"那就沒用完的都砍掉，我們能做最嚴厲的要求就是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:05:58.359250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:03.698500+08:00","text":"砍掉就好了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:03.698500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:09.037750+08:00","text":"已經執行完畢了啊！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:09.037750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:14.377000+08:00","text":"最嚴厲的要求就是把沒有執行完的都砍光，就這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:14.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:17.899000+08:00","text":"我的建議就是，因為不能老是用這個理由去逃避監督啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:18.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:52.119000+08:00","text":"當然它最後剩下的錢確實也\n不多，我的建議是這樣，減列那剩下的四百多萬，但是凍結的部分，我的建議是要調整成 10%\n協 17\n，你還是要提一個專案報告給我們，讓我們來去做事後檢討啦！","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:52.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:53.119000+08:00","text":"你刪光就沒有凍結啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:52.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:52.499000+08:00","text":"你現在是要凍結還是怎麼樣？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:52.499000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:53.499000+08:00","text":"因為刪光就沒有凍結了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:52.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:53.099000+08:00","text":"我要的就是他們還是要做專案報告啦！","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:54.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:06:55.559000+08:00","text":"羅委員，院長，我講一下好不好？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:06:55.559000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:05.993000+08:00","text":"刪光就沒有凍結了，沒有預算了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:05.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:09.475000+08:00","text":"那就還是一樣，就按照我們原案來做。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:09.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:14.359000+08:00","text":"不是啦！院長……對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:14.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:16.621000+08:00","text":"等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:16.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:20.224000+08:00","text":"這個事情是這樣，這個預算是已經用掉了，只剩下 1,000 萬嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:28.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:34.514000+08:00","text":"可以把剩下的部分全\n部刪掉，已經用掉的你現在去刪也是不可能的事情嘛！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:34.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:35.175000+08:00","text":"這要務實一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:35.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:07:39.998000+08:00","text":"至於專報以後才可以動\n支，持平而論，一個月內我們立法院都在……委員會排這個是有困難的喔！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:07:40.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:07.113000+08:00","text":"另外，羅智強委員\n，我跟你說明一下，這是我們立法院的問題，因為立法院對於營業及非營業的明年預算是現在\n才在審，主要是一開始在審的時候，當然是情況不一樣啦！","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:07.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:09.434000+08:00","text":"這不是他們怠惰的問題，而是立法\n院的問題。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:14.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:31.384000+08:00","text":"主席，因為對行政部門最嚴厲的監督就是把它的預算砍掉，所以我們也都達成同意，\n沒有用完的全部砍掉，我覺得對他們來講已經是很嚴厲的處罰，是不是就全部砍掉？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:34.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:40.108000+08:00","text":"如果要用\n凍結的話，就是主決議，然後交報告，始得動支。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:43.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:50.145000+08:00","text":"跟各黨團報告一下，現在 3 黨，看台灣民眾黨有沒有寶貴意見，現在減列 400 萬的話，有沒\n有意見？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:50.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:56.690000+08:00","text":"我們基本上還是尊重提案黨團的立場啦！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:56.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:08:59.928000+08:00","text":"只是我也不曉得該怎麼講耶！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:08:59.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:06.871000+08:00","text":"幫你們把沒有\n用完的錢刪掉，對你們是最嚴厲的處罰，幫你們提高執行率還是最嚴厲的處罰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:06.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:08.192000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯我老\n實講我是聽不懂啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:09.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:16.556000+08:00","text":"但沒有關係，我們尊重提案黨團的意見，他們要堅持……不是啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:16.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:18.578000+08:00","text":"我是說\n尊重他們的意見啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:19.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:24.741000+08:00","text":"他們同意的範圍，我們敬表同意，他們不同意要院會處理，就院會處理，\n都可以啦！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:25.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:26.173000+08:00","text":"那這樣啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:27.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:38.023000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得關鍵還是要針對它的整個使用狀況，我覺得很難是說今天要用\n完，跟我講說現在剩下四百多萬，就當沒事。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:39.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:42.487000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，那剩下的凍結啦！好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:43.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:44.789000+08:00","text":"我還是要求希望有一個報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:47.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:49.152000+08:00","text":"就四百多萬凍結，剩下還沒用完的凍結。好。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:49.152000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:51.028333+08:00","text":"要提書面報告嗎？要啊！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:51.028333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:52.904667+08:00","text":"當然要啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:52.904667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:54.781000+08:00","text":"要寫清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:54.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:09:58.706000+08:00","text":"就是剩餘數未支用完畢者凍結。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:09:59.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:02.910000+08:00","text":"第 39 案，3 個黨團我們凍結 400 萬……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:02.910000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:05.313000+08:00","text":"好，凍結 400 萬。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:05.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:13.582000+08:00","text":"第 40 案，民眾黨黨團提議第 40 案減列二分之一、247 萬 7,000 元，請台灣民眾黨黨團表達\n意見。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:13.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:14.582000+08:00","text":"NCC 出國的旅費，去國外 425 萬，然後去中國 39 萬，去中國我看起來應該是沒有去\n嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:14.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:15.582000+08:00","text":"你們那個 425 萬，我請你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:15.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:16.582000+08:00","text":"陳代理主委，你直接可以回答，不用再經過主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:15.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:10:50.740000+08:00","text":"我直接看你們的細目，陳耀祥帶了一堆人跑去歐洲，搞了一趟回來花了 88 萬，這是\n你們給我的啊！","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:10:51.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:12.507000+08:00","text":"他跑去捷克參加什麼網際網路治理論壇嘛，只是我看陳耀祥去歐洲一趟參加什\n麼網際網路治理論壇，回來也沒有提出什麼精明的作為，你們 NCC 該做的一堆事情統統都沒有\n做，跑去國外幹嘛？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:15.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:29.626000+08:00","text":"我現在具體的講，因為審到這邊，處理上一屆國會該處理沒有處理的問題\n，搞得大家都很無奈，你們就擺出一副錢都已經花了，要不然要怎麼樣。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:29.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:34.428000+08:00","text":"陳耀祥也走了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:34.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:37.368000+08:00","text":"我在講話，你們也尊重一下，好不好？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:37.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:39.849000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:39.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:43.170000+08:00","text":"不是啦，我們會真的要這樣開下去嗎\n？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:43.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:43.790000+08:00","text":"你確定要這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:43.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:11:53.907000+08:00","text":"我具體問啦，你現在到底花了多少錢？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:11:53.907000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:04.024000+08:00","text":"我們剩下還沒花的是 234 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:04.024000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:14.141000+08:00","text":"剩下還沒有花的有 234 萬，那剩的 234 萬全部都刪掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:14.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:15.862000+08:00","text":"是，我要特別說明的是，有兩個不可抗力因素。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:16.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:27.248000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們原來有一個計\n畫是 IIC，在美國華府開的，後來他們大會臨時改在泰國曼谷，所以那個費用就有落差，這是第\n一個不可抗力因素。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:27.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:38.455000+08:00","text":"第二個不可抗力因素，原來有一個數位人權大會在哥斯大黎加開，它取消\n了，延到明年，這兩部分的旅費加起來數目就很大。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:39.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:59.393000+08:00","text":"另外補充，6 月份去歐洲 EuroDIG 那部分，\n其實有聯絡英國、法國一些類似我們的同儕機關，跟他們的一些交流也促成我們在 10 月份取得\nGOSRN 現在安全組織觀察員的身分，以上補充。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:59.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:59.754000+08:00","text":"所以結論減掉 234 萬，同意不同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:59.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:12:59.854000+08:00","text":"今年用得到嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:12:59.854000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:10.080000+08:00","text":"用不到刪掉就好了啊！協 19","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:10.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:16.963000+08:00","text":"報告委員，234 萬是預估剩餘數，交委會已經刪減 80 萬，大概剩餘 150 萬……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:16.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:17.984000+08:00","text":"那就刪 150 萬，可以嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:17.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:18.984000+08:00","text":"用不到刪掉就好了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:19.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:23.727000+08:00","text":"那我們就照黃國昌總召所提，刪 150 萬。OK。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:24.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:24.067000+08:00","text":"國民黨團沒意見？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:27.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:31.170000+08:00","text":"好，第 40 案我們刪減 150 萬。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:31.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:13:42.636000+08:00","text":"好，下一案，第 46 案，國民黨團提出凍結十分之一，請國民黨團表達意見。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:13:42.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:14:07.373000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席，我這邊還是想要提，NCC 過去一直以來很多的作法其實人民不能認\n同，當然，因為現在在審 113 年的預算，其實已經花了很多，可是我想要請教的是，過去一直以\n來，我們的通訊傳播監督管理基金到底還剩多少錢？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:14:07.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:14:08.413000+08:00","text":"到底餘額是多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:14:08.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:14:37.477000+08:00","text":"因為基金是一個水庫\n的概念，當然我們也不是希望每一年度都需要有盈餘，可是我覺得 NCC 在管理這個基金有點不\n當，就是它不能因為我們還沒有開始審這個基金，就一直花、一直花、一直花，花到最後只剩\n一點點了，我相信在去年度的時候，你們的執行率也沒有那麼高，也是有一些剩餘，我是覺得\n你們 113 年度真的花得有比較多，所以這部分要請 NCC 改善。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:14:38.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:14:41.680000+08:00","text":"我還要特別提到，我們這個案由\n是什麼呢？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:14:42.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:15:13.426000+08:00","text":"尤其很多民眾都有跟我們回復，他們說有惡質的媒體人與媒體，我們不要講是哪家\n媒體，在政論節目上烏龍爆料，誹謗無辜女性與前政治人物滾床單的這種事情遭起訴，NCC 曾\n經召開自律的諮詢委員會，可是裡面的委員居然說滾床單非負面名詞，而且一直延誤公布會議\n紀錄。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:15:13.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:15:39.752000+08:00","text":"NCC 一直說媒體自律，可是我們認為它遇到事情有時候會轉彎，有不同的標準，所以我\n們還是希望 NCC 應該要好好發揮監督制衡的能力，並對這件事情提出書面報告，回復為什麼會\n有這樣的兩套標準，以及要回復我 NCC 這樣的基金到底還有多少錢。以上。","quality":0.196},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:15:39.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:15:45.738000+08:00","text":"麻煩陳主委，請直接答復張智倫委員的詢問……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:15:45.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:15:53.766000+08:00","text":"這邊的文字描述跟事實有點落差，因為事實上新聞媒體業者是根據衛廣法第\n二十二條設的自律倫理委員會，他們的會議紀錄，是他們委員會裡頭的委員發言，不是 NCC 的\n。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:15:53.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:16:08.462000+08:00","text":"另外，其實我們 NCC 在今年也已經針對類似的情況罰了 9 件、320 萬。以上。","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:16:08.462000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:16:23.158000+08:00","text":"預算數 3,640 萬，到 11 月執行 2,140 萬，預估 12 月執行 1,349 萬，全年度預計執行\n3,490 萬，然後預估剩餘數是 150 萬，但是在交委會已經刪減 150 萬。理解。","quality":0.082},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:16:23.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:16:23.658000+08:00","text":"接下來請羅智強委員發言，黃國昌總召請準備。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:16:23.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:16:51.120000+08:00","text":"羅智強委員，你剛剛舉手了，請發言。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:16:52.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:17:04.654000+08:00","text":"因為不同的提案委員關切的問題不太相同，我們前面已經做了這個凍結，然後做報告\n的決議嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:17:05.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:17:21.478000+08:00","text":"現在我想說還是要把提案委員對於為什麼他們要採取凍結的這些理由，剛剛智倫委\n員已經講了，包括對於所謂的惡質媒體人的爆料，民視有召開的自律諮詢委員會，這是一個。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:17:22.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:17:54.393000+08:00","text":"另外也有提案委員提到，有鑑於通訊傳播監督管理基金在 113 年度透過委託的方式，將花費 500\n萬元辦理廣電媒體專業素養培訓及公民培力的業務，然考量相關內容、具體的成效以及成果揭\n露的規劃，都沒有相關說明，所以他認為這個也應該要請 NCC 能夠一併說明。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:17:54.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:18:26.267000+08:00","text":"另外還有委員也\n協 20\n提到臺灣詐騙情形嚴重，近年詐騙金額跟詐騙案件屢創新高，越打越詐，受社會大眾詬病，\nNCC 作為打詐的主管機關，重要性列為主管機關之首也不為過，通訊傳播監督管理基金也負責\n宣導防詐事項，他認為其中裡面編列的服務費用，顯然成效不彰，所以也希望能夠加以說明。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:18:26.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:18:34.494000+08:00","text":"另外還有委員對於臺灣性影像犯罪的情形很嚴重，這個部分也需要說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:18:34.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:18:45.904000+08:00","text":"另外也有針對所謂的\n委託辦理網際網路治理環境及諮詢服務業務的具體成效，也覺得沒有很清楚的說明。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:18:51.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:19:02.416000+08:00","text":"所以大概\n以上的東西，我想還是要把大家的緣由先列述一下，將來再提報告的時候，希望 NCC 針對這些\n全部都能夠一併的報告。以上。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:19:03.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:19:07.540000+08:00","text":"好，黃國昌總召請發言，柯總召請準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:19:07.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:19:22.431000+08:00","text":"第一個，這個提案的是王鴻薇委員，基本上對王委員的提案，我是 100%支持，您是\n代理主委嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:19:22.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:19:44.804000+08:00","text":"我希望代理主委在面對這件事情的時候，請用嚴肅的態度面對 NCC 的責任，容我\n再說一次，請你用嚴肅的態度面對 NCC 的責任，我剛剛聽你在那邊陳述這件事情，說這個是業\n者自己開的自律倫理委員會，是沒有錯，但大家的問題是 NCC 做了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:19:46.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:19:49.383000+08:00","text":"NCC 做了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:19:49.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:20:01.471000+08:00","text":"每次\n來立法院報告，說廣電業者有自律的要求，要他們自律規範，結果開的那是什麼自律倫理委員\n會？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:20:02.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:20:04.954000+08:00","text":"開到自己覺得可能丟人現眼啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:20:04.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:20:16.208000+08:00","text":"我回來立法院以前就在追這個案子，民視開那個什麼自律\n倫理委員會？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:20:16.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:20:20.370000+08:00","text":"開到自己覺得丟人現眼，在那個自律倫理委員會裡面說什麼話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:20:20.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:20:20.650000+08:00","text":"說滾床單是負面\n名詞嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:20:20.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:20:50.015000+08:00","text":"對被害者造成了二度嚴重的傷害，到今天一句道歉都沒有，這種丟人現眼有自律倫理\n委員會的會議紀錄，後來自己知道不要公開比較好，直接從網路上面把它拿下來，就不公開，\n根本找不到。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:20:52.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:02.040000+08:00","text":"我從 2022 年就開始追這件事情，我 2024 年回來，到 2024 年他們不曉得什麼時候\n，偷偷的又把那個補回去。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:03.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:04.921000+08:00","text":"大家在質疑的事情是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:04.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:19.326000+08:00","text":"大家在質疑的事情是在整個過程當中，\n有能力去監管廣電媒體的，被害人沒有辦法，被害人只能開記者會哭訴，有能力監管廣電媒體\n的是你們 NCC 耶！","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:19.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:19.947000+08:00","text":"民視憑什麼把那個會議紀錄撤下來？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:19.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:20.787000+08:00","text":"什麼時候又偷偷補回去？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:20.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:21.048000+08:00","text":"可以這樣幹喔\n？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:21.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:21.908000+08:00","text":"不用負任何責任喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:42.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:42.099000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黃總召。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:42.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:42.519000+08:00","text":"柯總召，請。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:21:45.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:21:59.543000+08:00","text":"我想這個是大包小嘛，最大的是第 39 案，所以國民黨以下的 7 個案子都是包在一起\n一併處理，補書面報告，羅智強委員講得很有道理。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:22:00.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:22:03.944000+08:00","text":"至於黃國昌講的民視自律委員會的問題，\n請 NCC 用嚴肅的態度啦，你等等說明一下。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:22:11.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:22:33.298000+08:00","text":"黃國昌委員對這個案子，剛才聽說從 2022 年就開\n始追了，追到現在也水落石出、破案了，該送法院的都判刑責了嘛，有兩個人都判刑責，所以\n刑事責任法院已經判了嘛，至於後續的，當然誰做什麼事情各自本來就要負責的。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:22:35.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:22:42.286000+08:00","text":"至於這個民\n間的自律委員會，我不知道 NCC 能夠管到什麼程度啦，這個你請說明就好。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:22:46.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:22:47.046000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:22:47.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:22:50.348000+08:00","text":"第 40 案，陳代理主任，您可以稍微……您現在有話要……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:22:50.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:04.907000+08:00","text":"我簡單補充一下，第 46 案我們照衛廣法的程序是請業者陳述意見，如果涉\n及事實查證，它要召開倫理委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:04.907000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:19.466000+08:00","text":"今天案子涉及到第二步驟，它召開倫理委員會之後，我們\n蒐集到資料，會在我們自己召開 NCC 的內容廣告節目諮詢委員會，我們自己有個諮詢委員會，\n協 21\n諮詢委員會上完之後，才會上我們委員會議，這是程序中第二個階段的事情而已。","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:19.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:28.087000+08:00","text":"謝謝您的補充說明，第 46 案我們就凍結 10%，即十分之一，提書面報告，好，各位黨團幹\n部沒有意見。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:28.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:29.507000+08:00","text":"我們進入第 54 案，國民黨團陳菁徽委員提議凍結 50%……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:29.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:30.728000+08:00","text":"全部要併在一起。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:31.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:31.808000+08:00","text":"凍結二分之一，250 萬，國民黨團要補充說明嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:42.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:43.110000+08:00","text":"沒有了吧！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:43.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:45.119333+08:00","text":"還是他搞錯了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:45.119333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:47.128667+08:00","text":"第 39 案是凍 400 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:47.128667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:49.138000+08:00","text":"對，應該是全部……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:49.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:23:54.464000+08:00","text":"大包小了嘛，第 39 案大包小，剛剛羅智強也講的很清楚了，請他們要說明嘛！","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:23:59.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:01.888000+08:00","text":"第 54 案我們就凍結提書面報告。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:01.888000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:03.568000+08:00","text":"第 57 案我們凍結提書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:03.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:05.469000+08:00","text":"第 60 案也是凍結提書面報告。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:06.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:12.871000+08:00","text":"第 61 案國民黨團陳菁徽提的……\n更正第 60 案改主決議。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:13.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:21.654000+08:00","text":"第 61 案國民黨團陳菁徽提的凍結二分之一，提書面報告。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:21.654000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:22.654000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:22.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:23.574000+08:00","text":"報告，是不是併第 39 案？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:24.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:24.715000+08:00","text":"全部併了嘛？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:28.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:32.090000+08:00","text":"併 39 案沒錯，它主要在第 39 案這個科目名稱嘛！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:33.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:35.619000+08:00","text":"第 39 案已經大包小，包底下 7 個案子嘛！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:37.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:38.848000+08:00","text":"而其他案子你要提出說明嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:38.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:42.631000+08:00","text":"針對他的要求說明……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:42.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:42.751000+08:00","text":"個別的，對，這合理。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:42.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:47.334000+08:00","text":"好，第 62 案併委員會決議辦理，提出書面報告。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:49.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:24:52.038000+08:00","text":"第 63 案法制業務，台灣民政黨黨團提出凍結二分之一，黃國昌總召請說明。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:24:58.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:25:12.325000+08:00","text":"他們花了一些錢了，所以 NCC 來的建議是凍結 10%，兩個月內提書面報告始得動支\n，這是你們的建議嗎？是嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T11:25:13.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:25:15.626000+08:00","text":"我們建議是凍結十分之一，提書面報告。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:25:18.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:25:28.388000+08:00","text":"好，凍結十分之一，我可以同意，時間我願意拉長，給你拉到三個月，但是要提專案\n報告，經同意始得動支。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:25:33.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:25:41.151000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為法制業務計畫，其實它的預算數額並不大，只有 248 萬，它已經執行\n協 22\n了 241 萬 6,000，只有剩餘 6 萬 4,000 元，所以如果凍結的話，會影響到業務的處理。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:25:41.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:25:56.924000+08:00","text":"奇怪，如果凍結會影響到業務的處理，凍結 10%不是你們自己提的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:25:56.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:05.092000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我解釋一下，如果是專案報告的話會影響到決算的處理；如果是提書面報\n告的話，凍結數 10%是跟……","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:09.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:10.471000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:10.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:15.676000+08:00","text":"反正書面報告提來了以後，不管裡面寫的內容是什麼，就自己\n解凍了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:16.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:18.298000+08:00","text":"所以對你們不會有困擾？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:18.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:21.020000+08:00","text":"提書面報告也是要到委員會這邊來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:24.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:28.346000+08:00","text":"我們一樣一樣來，不要把所有事情混在一起，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:28.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:29.907000+08:00","text":"第一個，凍結 10%是你們寫\n的耶！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:32.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:36.413000+08:00","text":"我已經同意了，你還要爭取凍結 10%這件事嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:39.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:40.575000+08:00","text":"第二個，我願意把時間拉長，拉長到 3\n個月，但這件事情我希望你們做專題報告，經同意始得動支。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:40.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:26:56.209333+08:00","text":"我知道，柯總召等一下發言。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:26:56.209333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:27:11.843667+08:00","text":"現在黃總召的意思是說，他同意你們所提出來的凍結十分之一\n，他也同意你們 2 個月之內的報告延長到 3 個月提書面報告，就是加一個專案報告，這個……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:27:11.843667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:27:27.478000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我們原來提案的建議是要改書面報告，所以凍結 10%加書面報告是\n同樣的，希望委員能夠同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:27:27.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:27:41.907000+08:00","text":"凍結 10%，提書面報告是標準配備，現在拆開來就不一樣了，對於本案，第 39 案已\n經全部處理了，全部併在一起處理就可以，因為剛才第 39 案大家都同意，所以就全部併到第 39\n案裡面統一處理了。","quality":0.77},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:27:46.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:27:48.410000+08:00","text":"黃總召，現在柯總召說全部併到第 39 案，你的意見？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:27:48.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:27:52.853000+08:00","text":"其他黨團的提案我都尊重，現在在討論的是台灣民眾黨黨團的提案。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:27:55.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:28:04.939000+08:00","text":"第 63 案，現在台灣民眾黨黨團……陳代理主委跟主計長，現在黃總召所提的是一個比較寬\n的狀態，而且是在你們所同意的基礎之上，這應該沒有問題吧？","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:28:06.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:28:29.221000+08:00","text":"報告委員，就是因為專案報告後始得動支的話，因為我們已經實支了，在決算的處理\n上就會有一些懸帳的問題，所以可不可以就改主決議，然後提專案報告？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:28:29.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:28:39.515000+08:00","text":"不行，我這樣講啦，我已經釋出非常大的善意，如果連這個你們都要爭執，那沒有關\n係，就維持原案，送院會處理。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:28:41.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:28:42.316000+08:00","text":"好，第 63 案保留，送院會處理。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:28:42.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:28:43.576000+08:00","text":"好，我們繼續往下。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:28:45.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:28:56.780000+08:00","text":"等一下，院長，黃國昌委員既然這樣堅持的話，那也無所謂，後續是你們做帳的問題\n嘛，應該是這樣啦。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:01.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:07.242000+08:00","text":"已經實支的經費就不能列為實支數，事實上這些業務的支出都已經支付了……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:07.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:09.328000+08:00","text":"我知道，那是帳目作帳的問題了。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:12.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:14.656000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我已經做了裁決，我們就不在回頭了。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:16.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:23.479000+08:00","text":"這個部分我再說明一下，因為現在 248 萬，他已經用了 241 萬，只剩下 6 萬，所以\n你說要凍結 10%就會有問題，不能動支，因為你凍結起來不能動支，但是事實上他已經支用了\n協 23\n241 萬，只剩下 6、7 萬。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:23.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:24.479000+08:00","text":"不能用了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:24.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:25.479000+08:00","text":"他已經用了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:25.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:26.479000+08:00","text":"用掉的就用掉了，剩下 6 萬就不能用了嘛！","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:23.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:24.340000+08:00","text":"所以你現在凍結起來不能用，他就沒辦法。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:24.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:33.656600+08:00","text":"剩下的 6 萬就不能用了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:33.656600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:42.973200+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我們不再回頭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:42.973200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:29:52.289800+08:00","text":"我跟各位宣告，除第 40 案減列 150 萬之外，第 39 案、第 46 案、第 54 案、第 57 案、第 61\n案凍結，提書面報告，謝謝。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:29:52.289800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:30:01.606400+08:00","text":"接下來我們還要繼續再宣告一下，第 39 案、第 46 案、第 54 案、第 57 案、第 61 案併案凍結\n400 萬元，提書面報告，謝謝。","quality":0.243},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:30:01.606400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:30:10.923000+08:00","text":"那一案是院會處理，是不是？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:30:10.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:30:11.964000+08:00","text":"好，我們休息 10 分鐘，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:30:11.964000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:44:41.850000+08:00","text":"休息（11 時 30 分）\n繼續開會（11 時 44 分）","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:44:41.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:44:45.372000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，請就位，我們開始了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:44:46.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:44:53.737000+08:00","text":"現在處理 113 年度附屬勞動部的就業安定基金，共 3 案。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:44:53.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:45:04.222000+08:00","text":"今天所有列席的官員，首先我們歡迎\n勞動部洪部長，歡迎；衛福部的邱部長，歡迎您，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:45:04.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:45:08.270000+08:00","text":"我們第 8 項促進國民就業計畫，國民黨賴士葆委員提議減列 3 億元，請國民黨團表達意見。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:45:14.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:45:14.398000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:45:17.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:46:28.236000+08:00","text":"我們國民黨團提出有關於就業安定基金的部分，這是最近大家所重視的，\n不管是前任的勞動部許部長，他在這個基金的使用上有非常多的問題，我相信新聞媒體大家都\n很關注，現在在這個基金用途明細表裡面有一個叫做促進國民就業計畫裡面的「服務費用」，\n編列了八十多億，有列水電費、郵電費、旅費、裝訂費、維修保固費用、一般服務費、專業服\n務費等等，在 109 年到 111 年的時候，決算數字只有 72 億，可是我們剛剛有講，113 年的時候\n卻高達 84 億，而且過去的預決算實現率大概只有八成七到九成二，因為預算跟決算數字差異很\n多，大概有 10%的差異性，而且 113 年的時候還增列這麼多，我們希望應該要節省人民的納稅\n錢，所以我們建議刪除「服務費用」3 億元。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:46:29.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:08.033000+08:00","text":"我們還是要提就業安定基金，一般來講，是要真的服務人民去就業，而不是當作是某些部會\n首長的零用錢，甚至很多媒體說這是小金庫，所以我要請部長來協助，到底就業安定基金的部\n分，如何好好去查詢到底有沒有被濫用，是不是你們自己一定要提一個專案報告來做檢討，因\n為我們大家都知道，上次到現在，就你們的調查報告裡面，其實針對就業安定基金的部分，好\n像是隻字未提，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:09.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:15.578000+08:00","text":"洪部長，張智倫委員提了三個重點，第一，減列 3 億元，能不能接受？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:15.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:16.699000+08:00","text":"目前執行了多少？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:16.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:20.822000+08:00","text":"第\n協 24\n二，過去就業安定基金有沒有被違法濫用、挪用？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:21.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:24.684000+08:00","text":"第三，展望未來，安定基金要怎麼樣正確的\n定位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:25.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:28.626000+08:00","text":"您先答復，剩下其他黨團要發言的，請在主席臺這裡登記，請洪部長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:31.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:35.393000+08:00","text":"首先，先謝謝張智倫委員的一些提醒。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:47:36.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:47:59.811000+08:00","text":"第一個，我先說明一下，因為這段時間大家都\n在討論就安基金的問題，在就安基金這件事情上，在我上任後，其實就馬上要求我們發展署開\n始進行檢討的作業，到目前、一直到今天，都還在召開這些檢討作業的會議，到時候一定會針\n對就安基金的改革方案，我們會拿出一個方案。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:48:00.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:48:14.861000+08:00","text":"事實上，我在委員會裡面也有說，大概 1 個月\n左右的時間，我們必須拿出改革方案，因為我們很清楚知道現在還是在談 113 年的預算；114 年\n預算這部分也會是大家一個很重要的重點，所以這是第一點要說的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:48:16.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:48:46.520000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛剛講到有沒有相關弊端的事情，目前確實檢調已經在做相關的查察，我們的態度\n很清楚，我們絕對不會有任何的包庇，我們會全力配合檢調在這方面的查辦，絕對會查辦，有\n相關的事證會送檢調、送政風，我絕對不會逃避，這部分我們把我們的態度在這邊再說清楚一\n次。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:48:47.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:49:15.053000+08:00","text":"再來一點，關於現在賴士葆委員的這個提案，也就是說，在就安基金下面有一個促進國民就\n業計畫上面的服務費用，我們查了之後發現，因為現在已經年底了，所以經費的使用率預計會\n到 99%，目前大概剩下 3 億元左右。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:49:15.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:49:38.372000+08:00","text":"預計到年底大概可以到 99%，業務單位提供的資料是可以到 99%，所以我們希望這\n部分能減少刪除。謝謝。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:49:38.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:49:50.362000+08:00","text":"誠如剛剛洪部長的說明，就業安定基金不只是現在所處理的 113 年度國營事業及附屬\n單位的相關預算，其實新年度的預算也是大家所關切的。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:49:51.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:49:55.407000+08:00","text":"我也非常同意不護短、不包庇，該改\n革就改革！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:49:56.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:00.251000+08:00","text":"回到預算書上，我就教部長，如果這個刪減數是在可以接受範圍的話，就同意刪減？","quality":0.515},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:00.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:01.251000+08:00","text":"如此我\n們也就同意刪減，也給大家一個很大的警惕。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:01.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:02.251000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:01.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:02.549000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:15.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:27.616000+08:00","text":"我們尊重提案黨黨團的提案，而且這個數字看起來抓得滿準的，把沒有花的都刪掉，\n這樣有助於提高他們的執行率。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:28.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:34.900000+08:00","text":"至於剛剛討論到就業安定基金過去到底怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:36.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:39.564000+08:00","text":"在提送相關\n資料時是不是有包庇、護短？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:40.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:51.013000+08:00","text":"但這個不是今天我要處理的問題，台灣民眾黨黨團對於就業安定\n基金的具體態度會呈現在明年預算處理上。以上。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:52.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:53.355000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:50:56.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:50:57.258000+08:00","text":"請柯總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:51:00.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:51:10.668000+08:00","text":"方才各位都很清楚，新任部長洪部長以前是大家的老同事，講話也非常誠懇，在面對\n所有問題時都沒有迴避，該移送就移送。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:51:12.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:51:29.919000+08:00","text":"有關就業安定基金這三個提案，坦白講，只要依照剛\n才處理前面幾個案子的模式，就是用不到的錢把它刪掉，所以是不是要照這樣去刪減？","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:51:30.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:51:30.800000+08:00","text":"而且刪\n減數這麼高？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:51:31.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:51:31.780000+08:00","text":"大家要斟酌一下。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:51:33.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:51:47.669000+08:00","text":"洪部長也講了，到年底會用到 99%，如果不到 99%的話，多刪\n一點也無所謂，用這模式來思考可能比較合理，因為上面幾個案子都是如此處理，明年他會好\n協 25\n好監管。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:51:48.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:02.049000+08:00","text":"首先，就業安定基金最近真的引起全民公憤，我覺得也不是光憑以後改進這句空話就\n可以督促的！","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:03.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:08.513000+08:00","text":"其實要督促政府機關，就好好把人民的憤怒記在心裡，大家來改進。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:08.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:10.675000+08:00","text":"也就是說，\n你今天做得有多爛，我就砍你多少預算！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:12.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:25.665000+08:00","text":"現在報紙都說就業安定基金是小金庫、馬屁基金，還\n拿了三百多萬去開演唱會，拍什麼沙龍照，弄什麼會議室、咖啡豆、垃圾清運……就搞了八千\n萬！","quality":0.614},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:27.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:38.959000+08:00","text":"說真的，我們今天提議減列 3 億元是在幫政府，等於幫政府打鞭子，跟他說：如果你再亂\n搞，抱歉！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:39.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:47.342000+08:00","text":"明年別說 3 億，刪 30 億都可以，因為沒有好好幫人民把納稅錢用好，我的主張是這\n樣。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:47.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:52.384000+08:00","text":"既然洪部長很誠意，直接說還有 3 億元沒用，那就減列 3 億元。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:52.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:52:58.820750+08:00","text":"我們就遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:52:58.820750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:05.257500+08:00","text":"還是一樣，雖然刪掉，但該檢討的我們會好好檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:05.257500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:11.694250+08:00","text":"敬表同意，3 個案子就不用再吵了，好不好？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:11.694250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:18.131000+08:00","text":"還有第 18 案、第 23 案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:18.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:22.034000+08:00","text":"至於第 18 案及第 23 案，國民黨賴士葆委員所提的減列 3,000 萬跟第 23 案國民黨陳菁徽所\n提的……","quality":0.559},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:22.034000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:24.655000+08:00","text":"凍結案的部分怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:24.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:27.797000+08:00","text":"5%，請國民黨團表達意見，是不是併第 8 案處理？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:29.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:38.763000+08:00","text":"我跟大家說，這剛好也是在幫勞動部，因為減列是給勞動部一個警惕，也請你們不要\n再浪費，要撙節。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:41.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:53:54.816000+08:00","text":"第 18 案的部分，提案委員已經跟勞動部這邊……應該可以改為主決議，所以\n第 18 案我覺得可以改為主決議。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T11:53:54.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:13.219000+08:00","text":"但是第 23 案，我認為一樣是要凍結，然後提報告再動支，原\n因很簡單，就是希望再給勞動部一點壓力啦，就是把相關的事情報告清楚，前面是減列，減列\n是一種警惕嘛，後面凍結要你報告也是一種警惕。以上。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:15.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:22.474000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部及勞動部，麻煩聽一下，現在就是第 18 案改為主決議，大家有沒有意見？同意。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:22.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:24.875000+08:00","text":"好，沒有意見，第 18 案改主決議。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:24.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:29.657000+08:00","text":"第 23 案是凍結 5%、提書面報告，請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:29.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:30.117000+08:00","text":"敬表同意。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:31.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:31.157000+08:00","text":"部長要說明。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:32.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:45.305000+08:00","text":"我說明一下，因為現在真的已經是年底了，我不知道這個凍結，現在是要凍結 5%嘛\n，但是可不可以在項目上面是改到……","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:45.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:46.305000+08:00","text":"科目自行調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:45.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:49.510000+08:00","text":"對，自行調整到在一般行政管理計畫下面可以自行調整啦，好不好？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:49.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:55.337000+08:00","text":"因為我們的「秘\n書業務」確實現在已經使用的差不多了。協 26","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:55.337000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:56.337000+08:00","text":"可以啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:56.337000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:57.337000+08:00","text":"好，報告院長，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:57.337000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:58.337000+08:00","text":"凍結 5%，自行調整，提書面報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:58.337000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:54:59.337000+08:00","text":"5%就是 830 萬，就是按照這個一億六千多萬簡單的凍結 830 萬，然後科目到一般行\n政管理下面自行調整，這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:59.337000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:00.337000+08:00","text":"OK，然後交報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:54:55.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:01.100000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，洪部長的意思是說，現在年底了，我們就凍結 830 萬，除提書面報告之外，\n就自行在這個科目項下自行調整，可以嗎？可以。可以？","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:01.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:22.145000+08:00","text":"好，黨團都接受，第 23 案在一般行政……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:22.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:24.448000+08:00","text":"在一般行政的管理項下，沒有問題。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:24.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:41.736000+08:00","text":"第 23 案就是在一般行政管理計畫項下自行調整，好嗎？好。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:41.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:42.877000+08:00","text":"各黨團有沒有問題？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:42.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:44.118000+08:00","text":"好，我們第 23 案這樣處理。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:45.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:46.960000+08:00","text":"謝謝勞動部洪部長，謝謝您。謝謝。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:47.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:48.801000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位官員，請微笑離開，謝謝。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:51.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:53.705000+08:00","text":"接下來請衛福部邱部長。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:53.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:55.206000+08:00","text":"好久沒看到洪部長的微笑。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:56.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:57.267000+08:00","text":"辛苦了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:55:57.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:55:58.869000+08:00","text":"洪部長好久笑不出來了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:56:13.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:56:35.388000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，接下來是衛福部，我們現在討論衛生福利特別收入基金，目前國民黨黨團提\n議減列 5%、凍結二十分之九，原列數是 3,250 萬，請提案的國民黨團表達意見。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:56:35.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:56:36.709000+08:00","text":"我先說明一下好了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:56:37.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:56:38.991000+08:00","text":"先讓提案的委員講完，你再說嘛。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:56:49.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:56:49.481000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:56:51.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:57:30.194000+08:00","text":"針對衛福特收基金，我們國民黨團的委員所提出來的就是說，有關於食品\n安全保護計畫相關的費用，我們認為因為過去每年大概都只有編列 700 萬的相關業務支出，可\n是在 113 年的時候，我們真的感到很震驚，預算增加了 4.64 倍，也就是增加 464%的規模，變成\n3,250 萬之多，而且很多本黨的委員一直想請基金的主管機關來提出說明，可是你們完全沒有任\n何的說明。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:57:31.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:57:35.739000+08:00","text":"我們想知道是為什麼，到底是政策改變還是怎麼樣？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:57:35.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:57:41.282000+08:00","text":"你們到底有做什麼樣的食品安\n全績效的設定，才要提這麼多的預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:57:41.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:57:46.445000+08:00","text":"我們是希望食安一定要顧好，可是民脂民膏也要顧好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:57:47.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:58:16.076000+08:00","text":"所以我們提案要減列這個基金用途的預算數 5%，然後另外要凍結 45%的預算數，因為你們過去\n一直以來都沒有提供我們資料，所以我們要限期一個月內向本院提交「113 年度辦理補助經中央\n協 27\n主管機關指定或公開徵選者，用以從事其他有關促進食品安全之相關費用，在預算經費較前一\n年度增漲 464%（即 4.64 倍）規模所預計達成之績效目標與執行計畫」提出專案報告，並經同意\n後，始得動支。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T11:58:16.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:58:16.476000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:58:16.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:58:16.556000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:58:16.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:58:32.750000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言。謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:58:32.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:59:13.733000+08:00","text":"有關這個案子，我想食品安全保護基金的支用當然要用於食安的相關費用，過\n去一年來很多食安的議題，中央、地方大家都要擴大聯手來保護人民的安全，就這個預算案的\n部分，因為我事前也有跟衛福部的同仁在討論，也督促他們要去跟提案委員做說明，上一次第\n一輪是這樣，所以就我所知你們應當有去跟提案委員說明，也獲得提案委員願意做的一些調整\n嘛，好像是可以，提案委員是陳菁徽委員，然後他願意做文字上的一些修正，用改主決議的方\n式處理。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:59:13.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:59:25.743000+08:00","text":"這是我追蹤的，我一定會去追蹤每一個部門有沒有去跟提案委員做說明，所以，就我\n的理解是這樣，菁徽委員也同意修正文字改主決議，所以是不是就這樣來處理？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T11:59:26.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:59:28.265000+08:00","text":"但修正的文字\n可能部長要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:59:28.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:59:29.246000+08:00","text":"好，稍微等一下，沒問題。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T11:59:30.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:59:33.710000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨團表達意見，黃國昌黃總召，請。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T11:59:33.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T11:59:38.494000+08:00","text":"其實我們尊重提案黨團他們自己對這件事情的立場。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-12T11:59:39.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:00:01.180000+08:00","text":"報告院長及各黨團的委員，這一個預算其實是從 112 年因為我們有增加人力的資源，\n這個全部是發給各縣市政府去好好落實食安，從 112 年就增加人力了，這個人力是各縣市政府在\n用啦，所以重點是這兩個，就是各縣市政府，然後是從 112 年就開始增加人力，是不是我請食藥\n署莊署長簡單再報告一下？","quality":0.415},{"speaker":"莊署長聲宏","start":"2024-12-12T12:00:21.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:00:22.599000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊署長聲宏","start":"2024-12-12T12:00:22.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:00:35.954000+08:00","text":"先跟各位委員報告，這個經費的增加主要是支付地方衛生局處做進\n行促進食品安全相關活動的經費，其中包括了主要有人事、業務和管理費，差異的主要部分是\n因為人事費用，我們今（113）年核可了 43 個人次給 21 個縣市，所以這個經費才會突然比往年\n高，原因是在這裡。","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:00:35.954000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:00:50.394500+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:00:50.394500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:01:04.835000+08:00","text":"跟黨團幹部報告，也跟提案的國民黨黨團報告，現在提案人陳菁徽委員已經同意改為主決議\n，相關資料也已發到各位手上，請問國民黨團有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":0.175},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:01:04.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:01:07.399000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，好，我們第 66 案就\n改為主決議，大家沒有意見，謝謝。","quality":0.304},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:01:07.399000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:01:21.429000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱部長及各位列席官員，謝謝，開心笑喔，微笑離開，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:01:21.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:01:30.455000+08:00","text":"113 年度運動發展基金，原審查報告第 4 案通過決議免予凍結，改主決議。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:01:30.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:01:34.338000+08:00","text":"現在請各位黨團幹部要仔細聆聽一下，柯建銘總召提出來的，陳玉珍委員，現在柯建銘委員\n有一個提案，請聽一下，不好意思。","quality":0.46},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:01:34.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:02:12.434000+08:00","text":"鑑於 113 年度將年度終了，針對 113 年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分，建\n請除院會協商新增之預算凍結案之外，各委員會審查通過之預算凍結案均免予凍結，改為提出\n協 28\n書面報告之後通過。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:02:12.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:02:14.097000+08:00","text":"這一點要請教各位黨團幹部，請柯建銘委員說明。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:02:14.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:02:46.857000+08:00","text":"我先說明一下，我們現在是在審查 113 年度的預算，現在已經到年底了，這個預算是\n上屆委員審查後所留下來的所有紀錄，包括凍結數等，但是我們大家在這裡已經重新再協商過\n了，要凍結還是怎麼樣已經有了新的處理方式，所以舊的部分應該可以廢棄，因為那是上一屆\n的了，他們都離開了，所以就把它改為主決議，這是符合實情，並沒有任何偷吃步，就是因為\n這個時間上的落差，那些人都離開了，而且他們之前雖然做了決議，但重點是我們在這裡重新\n處理過了嘛。","quality":0.527},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:02:48.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:02:50.200000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，黨團幹部表達意見，沒有問題。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:02:50.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:02:51.222000+08:00","text":"請陳玉珍委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:10.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:22.479000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個恕難同意啦，因為你說以前的已經過去了，已經都沒有在這裡了，但你們\n對什麼轉型正義，那都多過去的事情了，你們還不是一直在往前追究！","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:23.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:29.424000+08:00","text":"我們立法機構是一直承\n續下來，尤其您是資深的立委，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:29.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:40.012000+08:00","text":"你還在這裡，我從上一屆到現在也還在這裡，所以當\n然是沒有辦法用通放的方式，那以後所有單位都故意把這個拖到年底，然後就可以用這一招，\n這叫大赦喔！","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:40.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:41.012000+08:00","text":"這不是轉型正義的問題，叫……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:41.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:42.012000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說不能像……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:42.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:43.012000+08:00","text":"這些都已經重新處理過了，舊的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:43.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:44.012000+08:00","text":"你們對轉型正義都這樣做了，以前的都已經發生過很多事情了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:44.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:45.012000+08:00","text":"不同意！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:45.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:46.012000+08:00","text":"不同意！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:41.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:42.330000+08:00","text":"無法同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:58.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:03:59.214000+08:00","text":"好，那我們就不再處理了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:03:59.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:06.621000+08:00","text":"現在作宣告：報告各位黨團幹部，保留的第二輪協商已經處理完畢。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:06.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:26.238000+08:00","text":"第二輪協商結果由各委\n員會整理書面後，交各黨團確認後送財政委員會，並由財政委員會彙整，於本日下午 5 點前送\n議事處，以利明天院會進行保留部分之處理，同時的併同處理。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:27.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:31.802000+08:00","text":"非常感謝大家今天的出席，也謝謝各位官員，尤其是行政院主計總處……","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:31.802000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:33.062000+08:00","text":"協商結論呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:33.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:35.304000+08:00","text":"陳主計長，謝謝你，各位列席官員，我們現在……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:35.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:37.965000+08:00","text":"看一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:37.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:40.327000+08:00","text":"院長，這個協商結論大家要簽嘛，不然明天沒辦法處理嘛！","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:40.327000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:44.630000+08:00","text":"……要給你們看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:44.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:44.750000+08:00","text":"不必簽了嗎？今天……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:44.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:48.732000+08:00","text":"要給我們看啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:48.732000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:52.714000+08:00","text":"他們今天下午 5 點前彙整完給各黨團看。","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:52.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:04:52.734000+08:00","text":"不必再簽嗎？協 29","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T12:04:52.734000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:00.540000+08:00","text":"還是現在看一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:05:00.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:06.191000+08:00","text":"OK，好……\n那有關於證交稅以及地方稅法通則那一部分，協商結論都還沒簽啊。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:05:10.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:19.438000+08:00","text":"那明天要處理前要先處理啊，因為這個證交稅明天要處理啊，那議程大家共同來變更\n，把該處理的處理嘛。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T12:05:20.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:22.602000+08:00","text":"那照議事程序處理。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:05:23.102000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:32.530571+08:00","text":"好，那我特別謝謝陳主計長，從早上坐到現在，也謝謝教育部鄭部長，謝謝列席官員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:05:32.830571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:35.116286+08:00","text":"我們現在散會。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T12:05:35.416286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T12:05:36.559143+08:00","text":"散會（12 時 5 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}