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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":281.284,"end":281.344,"text":"等21人擬具"},{"start":782.571,"end":784.292,"text":"MING PAO CANADA 字幕志愿者"},{"start":1925.784,"end":1949.172,"text":"我們時間已經到了我們現在開始協商會議協商進行前我們先介紹告常委員還有機關代表我們首先介紹鍾嘉賓召委黃國昌委員接著我們介紹機關代表法務部政次黃政次廉政署署長馮署長"},{"start":1951.568,"end":1955.811,"text":"司法行政高廳長以下我們就不再逐一介紹軍列錄公報記錄我們現在開始進行協商今日協商司法及法制委員會報告併案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案等7案"},{"start":1979.75,"end":2001.926,"text":"本案審查會於113年11月7日審查完略審查結果主委員林月琴等17人提案第8條照案通過第11條照本席等19人提案通過外法名稱其與提案條文及本席所提修正動議均保留送院處理並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商"},{"start":2007.227,"end":2027.781,"text":"寫上時請參閱寫上條文對照表及審查報告與會委員如有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論現在補充介紹鍾瑞雄委員現在先請出席的黨團代表表示意見黃委員"},{"start":2038.464,"end":2057.029,"text":"那個我們現在是不是就直接從名稱開始一條一條往下走那如果是這樣子的話我建議啦就名稱的部分是不是就採公益揭弊者保護法除了揭弊者保護以外也在法案的名稱上彰顯所謂的公益的目的以上好 請問就法案名稱部分有其他意見"},{"start":2071.661,"end":2098.882,"text":"主席我想這個剛剛我對於法案的名稱的意見我是覺得目前的幾個版本都OK那現在我們現在是用逐條的方式還是協商的時候呢依據我們委員會審查的內容先做大體的交換意見好不好因為我們協商你現在說委員會的部分先逐條也是先大體再逐條好不好好那黃委員"},{"start":2101.036,"end":2129.393,"text":"第一個其實我覺得大家自己每一個黨團每一位立法委員我們大家心裡都有數公益揭弊者保護這件事情在我國談了非常非常久真的非常非常久我也知道我們有的時候在做一些國際宣傳的時候去彰顯台灣民主法治的價值我覺得這都非常的正面"},{"start":2130.868,"end":2158.524,"text":"那法務部為了要去處理去慶祝吧或者是說為了要去彰顯我們在這方面的努力然後12月9號也辦了什麼金紙獎嘛12月10號也有那剛好辦這些活動雖然我們是在野黨相關的一些活動我們也都沒受邀連知道都不知道那也沒有關係啦"},{"start":2160.051,"end":2186.045,"text":"因為禮拜天的時候我剛好有機會跟國際透明組織的主席我們因為之前我有跟台灣國際透明組織的有合作那在學者的介紹下我也跟國際透明組織的主席禮拜天的時候就交換了意見他也覺得很詫異說公益揭弊者保護"},{"start":2187.655,"end":2211.388,"text":"這在有關於國際反貪腐也好或者是國際透明組織大家共同的信念OECD會員國的要求這都已經是根深蒂固根深蒂固的概念那怎麼會在台灣拖延了這麼久有各式各樣的理由"},{"start":2212.421,"end":2237.404,"text":"有各式各樣在背後的力量但是從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我必須要再重申這個是我們選前就已經做出了莊嚴的承諾那針對這件事情我們在11月的時候再度在我們的重大政策的民調當中把這題放進去支持的比例我必須要說是嚇死人的高嚇死人的高"},{"start":2238.507,"end":2265.285,"text":"那現在大家可能在意的事情是說公部門把他納入吹哨者保護按照上一次委員會討論我覺得大部分的人就這件事情應該是有共識不用再講那私部門的部分有委員說有擔心說中小企業會受影響那當然在這個基礎上面私部門的範圍我必須要說啦"},{"start":2267.537,"end":2295.152,"text":"不管是私改國事會議的結論還是聯合國反貪腐公約下面的要求甚至我們找國際的學者專家到台灣來針對我們國家報告進行審查那個意見是很一致的私部門本來就應該要同時納入保護的範圍當中這個是很清楚的事情開了這麼多會白紙黑字的記錄全部都在這裡"},{"start":2296.55,"end":2322.466,"text":"那如果說大家要去考慮到說那台灣有很多中小企業那在中小企業的部分施行衝擊會不會太大我先講我自己個人的信念跟價值立場我們現在針對有關的吹哨者的保護事實上是擅見在很多特定的法規當中食品安全衛生"},{"start":2327.321,"end":2343.83,"text":"公務法等這些都有在那些規範的脈絡裡面大家其實仔細去看根本就沒有在區分說要把私部門或是中小企業排除在外所以在理念上我們還是認為所有私部門要把它納入規範的範圍但是在現實上"},{"start":2354.212,"end":2382.592,"text":"在現實上如果把私部門全部納入規範的範圍會引發在整個議事程序上面很多的阻礙很多的不順利那我們台灣民眾黨黨團是有空間我必須要先講是有空間針對私部門納的範圍可以來討論我所謂有空間把私部門納的範圍來討論就是大家如果真的都擔心"},{"start":2383.922,"end":2413.161,"text":"中小企業一下子可能比較難適應或者是說怎麼在法制的教育上法尊的遵循上會產生什麼重大的困難等等等等那我們是有空間可以討論在私部門的部分就把中小企業排除在規範的範圍之外就把中小企業排除在規範的範圍之外但是如果"},{"start":2414.909,"end":2442.497,"text":"排除了中小企業以後包括了上市櫃公司都要排除在外那這樣的立場我們可能就沒有辦法能夠接受那事實上大家有不同的態度跟看法我覺得在台灣這個多元民主的社會當中很正常都沒有關係那就把各自的黨團大家的看法的立場就拿版本出來"},{"start":2443.683,"end":2469.239,"text":"拿單本出來討論那大家看有共識的條文譬如說法案的名稱法案的名稱應該是不會有什麼太大的爭執吧那有共識的部分就先通過那沒有共識牽涉到有關於政策立場的部分我沒有做任何預測譬如說有黨團認為公佈門就好"},{"start":2472.383,"end":2499.13,"text":"那有黨團認為公部門加國營事業就好那我們是認為公部門加上一定規模以上的私人企業都應該要納入整個揭弊者保護法的範疇各自有立場各自有版本那就每一個黨團為自己的版本跟立場負責任因為我覺得這個事情真的拖了太久了"},{"start":2500.689,"end":2526.724,"text":"2019年的時候我老實講行政院提出了院版委員會也完成了審查甚至那個時候在召委段宜康召集協商我們也進行了黨團協商那個時候在2019年到最後一步黨團委員會裡面的黨團協商的時候事實上保留的條文已經沒有幾條了啦保留的條文已經沒有幾條"},{"start":2527.935,"end":2552.522,"text":"因為我特地去拿2019年那時候協商會議的紀錄我把它調出來看那之前我也有請求秘書長以後這些協商會議的紀錄可以上網就盡量上網因為這都是公開的資訊嘛這又不是幾個人躲在小房間裡面去搞出來的東西這個都是公開的資訊讓大家看嘛看2019年我們討論到什麼地方卡住哪裡重大的歧異在"},{"start":2553.717,"end":2568.66,"text":"在什麼重大的起義到底在什麼地方那我們新的這一屆的國會在這個基礎上面那當然你要改變你的看法也沒有關係你可以提新的理由改變你的看法"},{"start":2569.332,"end":2593.361,"text":"但我覺得最重要的事情是說這部法案一定要往前走這部法案一定要往前走不能繼續留在原地踏步因為我本來是想說其實上一次在委員會討論的時候有很多委員有各式各樣的高見我們一路從早上討論到下午我如果沒記錯的話從早上9點開始開會進入主條討論到下午5點"},{"start":2598.26,"end":2611.92,"text":"大家不同的看法、不同的觀點其實都已經呈現出來了有不一樣的價值選擇有不一樣的取進那這個都沒有關係但你總要繼續往前走吧"},{"start":2612.574,"end":2638.314,"text":"那如果今天黨團協商我們還是又回復到那一天那樣的狀態的話那老實說沒有任何推進實際上面的效果那今天大家坐在這邊進行這樣的黨團協商如果啦就是沒有要做針對這個事情大家就從條文或者是名稱就一步一步走下去的話"},{"start":2640.195,"end":2647.02,"text":"重新回到那時候委員會討論的狀態我就不知道說這樣到底有什麼太多積極的意義那莊委員謝謝召委還有在場的委員、列席的官員我看這樣子這部法令我們也討論很久了其實大家把不同的意見都有一個表達"},{"start":2666.246,"end":2689.908,"text":"各個黨團的意見其實大家都很清楚那整個上次我們在談的時候公部門先行這個部分我相信大家也都有共識啦那至於黃國昌委員剛剛提到說各個政黨把他自己的版本拿出來這個我都非常同意啦我也都非常同意啦我相信從整個揭弊者保護法草案"},{"start":2690.973,"end":2698.012,"text":"我們從以前不管是從大理討論或主條討論我所提出來的意見都不是反對的立場"},{"start":2699.246,"end":2728.04,"text":"我提的就是說這部法律怎麼樣讓它更精緻然後在法尊的部分衝擊到整個中小企業的部分我們立法院如何來做一個安排跟處理考量的都是這一些啦倒也不是說黃委員的哪一個條文我反對或誰的條文哪一個條文都不是我每一條我都有說理都有說理那一到現在走到現在來的話上次我們提的事都是保留送院會嘛那既然黃委員這樣提啦"},{"start":2728.86,"end":2751.277,"text":"我是覺得也很合理我是覺得就算我也是先在這邊跟法務部講啦就算你們不提出版本喔如果你們不提那我就要來提囉你像比如說我很在意的你那個惡意的揭弊的部分那個確實那個部分應該是更完整的一個做一個規範"},{"start":2752.728,"end":2777.903,"text":"因為有共識了嘛 要走了嘛至少你公益的部分看起來這部分都沒有爭議了嘛那是不是我建議啦 也不用吃雞都剝肉啦就讓 給個時間 看法務部提你不提 我就很抱歉啦 我就自己要來提案啦因為畢竟談到現在 公益的部分 這公部門先行的部分大家已經有共識了 以上總召委"},{"start":2785.765,"end":2807.263,"text":"我想揭弊者不管是公益揭弊還是揭弊名稱為何其實各黨團對於社會共同的呼籲誠如剛剛幾位委員所發言的不管黨團就算是有在條文上設計的差異大家的目標是一致的很多的價值高唱露雲其實到終究我們還是回歸到條文要怎麼樣去規劃"},{"start":2808.544,"end":2830.303,"text":"因為正義可以很素樸的提出它的價值跟方向但是法條的設計上一定要能周延的呼應到每個執行面上能夠顧及到當時這個素樸正義所要堅持的結果所以法律就是透過這樣的一個制定的過程讓目標可以透過程序落實到所要達到的結果那我們來看一下"},{"start":2831.084,"end":2843.428,"text":"回顧這次我們在委員會也是目前吳釗偉所主持的情況之下我們看到的有7個版本包括台灣民眾黨的版本以及包括國民黨黨員國民黨黨團成員有6個版本"},{"start":2847.91,"end":2867.712,"text":"那這七個版本我們討論之後我幫大家回顧一下今天我們的黨團協商我們通過了兩個條文其中是第八條林月琴案的第八條這裡面包括民進黨林月琴的委員也有一個第八條以及國民黨的吳釗偉的第十一條"},{"start":2868.68,"end":2882.752,"text":"那全部的條文呢 一共有17條大概各版本的條次差不多大概有到17條左右那麼有的比較長的 有的到24條那大概17條、18條、19條但是這就算是19條好了啦以我們這個吳昭偉的版本 這19條的版本呢目前我們通過了兩個條次"},{"start":2891.699,"end":2913.164,"text":"包括名稱的部分都是說保留送院會處理不過我這裡特別要提出來因為上次在委員會我們也非常的認真的討論那麼各黨團的成員都踴躍的就各個版本的內容來做一些發言倒是這裡面我們看到幾個包括吳釗緯所提的關於第一條的修正動議"},{"start":2914.224,"end":2929.447,"text":"那為什麼在大體討論的時候去呼應剛剛幾位委員的發言呢因為這個修正動議就是我們上次委員會大家討論後似乎要謀求一個凝聚共識的結果"},{"start":2930.568,"end":2958.242,"text":"縱使後來仍然是做成保留送院會處理但是我們來看一下我現在還是做大體的討論我沒有說是主條我們看到那幾個修正動議的被拿出來做討論第一個是吳昭偉所提出來的第一條那這裡面呢很開宗明義的在第一條的第一項當中就寫了公部門及國營事業那這一個修正動議很清楚的將其他的七個版本其他的七個版本呢做一個"},{"start":2959.491,"end":2976.3,"text":"全面性的修正那這個修正動議我相信是相較於我今天討論的七個版本往前邁了一步是不是大家要討論就是在以公部門及國營事業但是為什麼會保留呢就是國營事業的定義啦"},{"start":2977.476,"end":2988.968,"text":"其實呢 這個修正動議跟其他七個版本的最大不同就是其他七個版本都是公部門及私部門政府機關、公司及商業之內部那大概意識上都是公跟私"},{"start":2991.241,"end":3006.092,"text":"吳兆偉所提的修正動議他把公的部分保留了但是其他的部分他把它擴及到國營事業他並不是到私部門就是公部門再往前踏了一步是國營事業但是國營事業的範疇在委員會討論的時候就開始產生一個範圍上的討論這是第一個我是建議我們從大體討論來看一看上次修正動議的內容"},{"start":3014.827,"end":3040.524,"text":"那第二個修正動議呢也是吳釗偉所提出來是第七條那第七條當時呢就是指對於揭弊者保護的這些防止對他不利的一些措施那我相信大家如果看一下我們目前會診版的第十七頁十六頁十七頁這些內容大概也是針對其他的七個版本做一個比較完整的一個柔和但是呢一樣"},{"start":3041.89,"end":3064.956,"text":"這個修正動議在討論到其他版本是第7條的時候仍然是保留我是覺得這個部分我覺得可以在這個基礎之上成如剛剛黃總召所說的我們希望能夠往前推進可以先從修正動議的部分來看一看當時透過修正動議總要彙整凝聚整合的這些條文內容上我們可不可以把它往前推進"},{"start":3065.896,"end":3080.708,"text":"那我還再強調一次今天未必我們的黨團協商可以將全部的18、9個條文全部的能夠有一個完一致的共識但是如果我們那其中的幾個條文能夠往前推進"},{"start":3082.009,"end":3098.799,"text":"有些共識,未來在處理的時候,我想我們也幫院會在處理本案的時候做一個努力接下來我們再看第三個修正動議,那麼就是第10條,也是吳釗偉所提的修正動議這當中是指對於違反揭弊者保護的一些處罰,那是針對"},{"start":3103.476,"end":3114.912,"text":"公務人員、位居公務人員那這裡面呢一樣為什麼當時在這個修正動議儘管做了整合但是仍然沒有獲得一致的共識就是裡面提到國營事業的部分"},{"start":3120.241,"end":3140.39,"text":"吳釗偉提出三個修正動議我是建議黨團協商可以就這三個修正動議所要努力去整合的部分我在這裡談一個大體討論的思考在上次委員會的審查當中其實大家談到不管叫做揭弊者或者公益揭弊我們其中一個考慮就是惡意揭弊的部分"},{"start":3141.21,"end":3163.345,"text":"二億揭弊的部分我們在黨團協商的我們第15條文當中對於二億揭弊不納入保護這個部分其實大家是有所琢磨但是是不是已經足夠還有包括不受保護後的這些裁罰也就是說二億揭弊是我們在推動揭弊者"},{"start":3164.383,"end":3193.789,"text":"保護法當中很重要的區別既然我們要保護揭弊者而且是基於公益的理由跟他保護那麼相對的惡意揭弊是不保護的那惡意揭弊的不保護我們規定分別出在我們協商條文的第15條跟第16條包括不保護的範圍不保護之後對於惡意揭弊者的裁罰如何的去予以具體的規範我想這是我們在委員會當時有稍微觸及但是似乎沒有辦法有一個共識的地方"},{"start":3194.269,"end":3213,"text":"那以上是建議在黨團協商的時候在大體討論的部分建議先就上次吳釗緯所提的三個修正動議以及我剛剛所提出來的兩點包括15條、16條惡意揭弊的第二層的處罰以及不受保護的裁罰的這個部分我們來進行意見交換以上建議黃委員第一個對各個委員所提出來的修正動議我們都尊重"},{"start":3223.188,"end":3252.069,"text":"但沒有道理以特定委員的修正動議來當作討論的範圍我必須要先說清楚上一次召委基於善意提出了你的修正動議台灣民眾黨黨團我們尊重召委提出修正動議的權利它只是其中討論的一個版本我沒有辦法理解為什麼如果大家有所推進的話那就就實質的條文來處理嘛"},{"start":3253.407,"end":3272.758,"text":"那為什麼要以特定的修正動議來當作討論最優先的事項或者是範圍其實我們打開天窗說亮話就三個不同的立場一個只有公部門一個公部門加上國營事業國營事業的定義一點都不困難在國營事業法裡面就有規範一點都不困難"},{"start":3281.091,"end":3308.015,"text":"國營事業法裡面就有規範啊我們就按照既有的規範就把它納入第二種政策選擇的主體範圍那第三個除了公部門國營事業以外一定範圍一定範圍一定範圍的私部門我們認為要把它納入進來那未來的話那些大財團大金控用中小企業當作幌子"},{"start":3309.298,"end":3332.963,"text":"不把他們納入規範的範圍當中這樣子的立場我們沒辦法接受那你三個大的就是這個三個大的不一樣的立場那就各個黨團按照自己所要支持的立場提出版本在條文的部分有共識就有共識沒有共識就沒有共識"},{"start":3334.728,"end":3362.249,"text":"對台灣民眾黨黨團來講我必須要先說明一個清楚的事情是說惡意揭弊的這個事情要怎麼處理要怎麼規範我們沒有特定的立場我們沒有特定的立場我們保持一個開放的態度但是在立法程序的過程當中有一件事情我們一定要說清楚講明白"},{"start":3363.317,"end":3380.634,"text":"因為我絕對不能讓台灣民眾黨黨團背負根本就不存在的惡名什麼叫不讓台灣民眾黨黨團背負根本就不存在的惡名我先從惡意揭弊這件事情來講去年在選舉的時候"},{"start":3384.588,"end":3406.912,"text":"就有側翼在攻擊台灣民眾黨黨團說什麼說所有的版本裡面有追究惡意揭弊的懲罰惡意揭弊納入提案的就是只有民眾黨的立院黨團指的是上一屆國會上一屆的國會民眾黨黨團的提案民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3411.226,"end":3437.134,"text":"他們棄於考慮說要把惡意揭弊要把它放進去結果竟然成為在選舉的時候攻擊民眾黨黨團的素材這個都有公開的資訊當初揭露的是什麼當初揭露的事情是有一個大集團叫做永豐集團在找什麼政治公關的時候強烈要求在揭弊者保護法納入懲罰惡意揭弊者條款"},{"start":3438.752,"end":3458.625,"text":"這不是我說的這個是去年提出來對台灣民眾黨黨團的攻擊那當然那是上一屆的國會我也相信上一屆台灣民眾黨黨團的立場怎麼可能會因為這些大裁團或大監控因為他們所以才要把惡意揭弊把它納入規範的範圍這個事情說清楚講明白"},{"start":3464.298,"end":3476.907,"text":"第二個回到今天我們所要處理的事情上面回到今天要處理的事情上面是說所謂的大體討論上一次委員會大體討論的還不夠嗎還是說一定要限在特定的範圍當中才願意繼續走下去否則不願意繼續走下去大體討論不外乎就我剛講的那三種規範模式嘛"},{"start":3491.718,"end":3507.602,"text":"只有政府機關第一種第二種政府機關加國營事業第三種政府機關加國營事業加入一定規模以上的私部門大概就這三種不一樣的不一樣的狀態那不一樣的狀態其實從上一次委員會的發言好幾個小時耶所有條文幾乎啦全部被保留"},{"start":3519.215,"end":3544.031,"text":"都是為了這個基本立場上面都不一樣那我們所謂的大體討論上一次在委員會討論的時候從早上9點到下午4、5點還不夠清楚嗎大家基本上的立場是什麼想法是什麼我相信都講得很透徹了啦那第二個部分我也感謝莊惠雄委員"},{"start":3545.582,"end":3569.713,"text":"莊委員今天也表達一定的善意出來說那我們就繼續往下走然後他剛說他要去提那個惡意揭弊的條款這個我都尊重每個黨團本來就有提案提修正動議的什麼提修正動議的權利嘛這個我們都尊重那但是我是希望啊如果這個協商要有任何意義的話就不要繼續"},{"start":3571.584,"end":3600.661,"text":"在基本立場的事情上面空轉因為看起來就不會有共識嘛看起來就不會有共識我為什麼說看起來就不會有共識第一個我先講第一個台灣民眾黨黨團我們不會接受我們不會接受只有公部門加國營企業我們一定會納入一定規模以上"},{"start":3602.005,"end":3602.345,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團不會支持"},{"start":3625.455,"end":3651.676,"text":"不會支持因為這個不是黨團少數的幾個人的看法那個是支持這項改革非常多的朋友以及我們的支持者大家共同的看法那在這件事情上面我們作為民意代表就是反映民意反映把選票投給我們送我們到立法院來的人他們希望所達成的改革目標那最後一個事情"},{"start":3653.442,"end":3678.433,"text":"行政部門隨時要提修正動議出來我們都歡迎但請容我這樣講本院沒有必要也不應該再等行政部門要提修正動議隨時歡迎今天要提明天要提後天要提隨時要提我們都歡迎但是沒有任何的道理等行政部門等得夠久了吧等得夠久了吧"},{"start":3682.895,"end":3701.908,"text":"整個立法院的程序會因為你行政部門抗拒不提出你們的版本大家就一直等嗎等得夠久了啦你不要說從2017年斯卡國事會議做了承諾到今天開始算了你急於是以新的國會3月第一次在總執行的時候問當時的行政院院長就說在演議嘛"},{"start":3711.437,"end":3719.383,"text":"新的行政院院長也在研議嗎?還要研議多久?繼續研議下去嗎?研議到2028年嗎?台灣公民社會等的已經夠久了所以我還是具體的建議"},{"start":3729.639,"end":3753.877,"text":"大體的看法各位黨團表示他們的立場台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我剛已經清楚表達我也沒有要強迫其他的黨團一定要接受我們的立場我也不會主張所以你不採取我的立場大家就不要往下走每一個黨團每一個立委有他自己的看法我們都尊重就按照民主程序下去"},{"start":3754.841,"end":3766.566,"text":"那還是說這個基本的立場沒有辦法收容有個基本的共識不要往下走今天會議要這樣進行嗎看等一下請主席查一事我都尊重"},{"start":3769.167,"end":3793.782,"text":"我先表示一下意見就是說當然是我先謝謝那個中召委還要拿以我的修正動議的版本出來討論但是因為我們現在其實有三個不同的版本嘛對不對我說主要以主要來說有三個不同就剛剛黃委員有提到的"},{"start":3795.797,"end":3813.635,"text":"公司部門或是像我提的公部門加國營企業或是說像那個台灣民眾黨希望的是公部門加國營企業再加部分的私部門那現在至少就有這三個"},{"start":3814.616,"end":3838.951,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":3845.285,"end":3865.075,"text":"那這樣子的話變成說因為照之前的做法是如果有黨團沒有出來的話變成說協商就不成立對就沒辦法協商沒有關係啊那就會議紀錄嘛就協商不成立嘛我們接下來就按照議事規則處理啊對"},{"start":3870.857,"end":3893.295,"text":"那這樣齁 那我請問一下各位委員那我們需不需要讓法務部說明一下因為剛剛中委員有說請法務部要提沒有 我沒有說請法務部說明一下沒有沒有 中委員 中委員那有說看是不是法務部要提那我們就請法務部3分鐘講一下好不好好 那麻煩法務部好 我們請那個聯合組這邊說明一下目前的願版的進度好了齁"},{"start":3896.246,"end":3908.73,"text":"主席委員,謝謝各位對《揭弊者保護法》的關切本署在《揭弊者保護法草案》中,目前總共召開過12次審查會本署也提了總共15項草案"},{"start":3913.372,"end":3937.492,"text":"但是因為每次在立法這個政策上面都會因為當時的一個需求然後再必須要兼顧不同的意見所以說目前就是行政院這邊的一個情況是認為說採取公私分流跟公部門先行的一個立法策略但是整個版本上還在行政院做一個研議那我們上一次在開完我們的一個這個"},{"start":3938.813,"end":3938.973,"text":"黃偉業第一個"},{"start":3969.082,"end":3993.301,"text":"行政院永遠都在演繹中啊上一次委員會的時候你們的態度講得很清楚了今天完全不出大家所料我們的行政院持續在演繹當中嗎這個是第一件事情第二個立法政策上面立場的事情我上次在委員會裡面我已經有點過了現在就可以把話講得更白了"},{"start":3995.254,"end":4017.104,"text":"當然是有政策上面的問題要不然2017年全國司改會議是開假的當然是有政策選擇的問題嘛要不然2017年司改國事會議是開假的司改國事會議都做決議啦但沒有關係啊也讓大家清楚的知道執政黨的立場"},{"start":4018.419,"end":4028.183,"text":"斯卡國際會議的決議也不是鐵律啦反正就是一個大敗敗的會議嘛參考的性質嘛隨著情勢的變遷嘛隨著情勢的改變嘛隨著執政者態度的改變嘛隨時都可以變動吹哨者保護法就是一個最清楚最具體的例子最清楚最具體的例子"},{"start":4047.23,"end":4075.92,"text":"那第三個部分既然行政院要研議啊就讓行政院繼續研議下去啊你們就慢慢的研議啊不斷的研議啊持續的研議啊但是台灣民眾黨黨團主張啊在立法院裡面的立法程序啊沒有必要因為行政院的研議啊而有任何的遲緩因為你們研議的夠久啦兩千多天啊兩千多天啊"},{"start":4082.955,"end":4096.76,"text":"沒錯清楚的看出來今天這個黨團協商民眾黨黨團出席了民進黨黨團出席了行政部門應邀列席來做說明也到了"},{"start":4098.103,"end":4120.103,"text":"哪一個黨團沒有派代表來我不曉得昭偉是不是代表國民黨黨團我剛剛很客氣的用昭偉所提出的修正動議希望以昭偉提出的修正動議某個程度上能促進三個黨團在不同版本之間的差別意見但是至於有人口口聲聲都說當年的司改會議如何如何如今應如何如何所以要說明一點"},{"start":4121.448,"end":4137.64,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團在上一屆所提的法案民眾黨團本身的立場如何我不是很清楚因為民眾黨黨團的立場我也經常捉摸不定包括現在黃總召所發言的立場"},{"start":4138.991,"end":4162.326,"text":"也經常在隨著時事在改變如果要說司改會議的決議有這樣的拘束力那我們也可以問當年的年金改革開了20多場的全國性的座談會凝聚的共識現在也是由黨團要來翻案也要將逐年下調的所得替代率要將它停止試用"},{"start":4163.248,"end":4181.483,"text":"所以一句老話套句剛剛所發言的此一時彼一時隨著時事的變遷任何黨團都可以拿今日之我來反對昨日之我誠如我們之前也不過上會期類似的黨團協商就在相關的立職法所謂的擴權法案當中"},{"start":4182.083,"end":4201.216,"text":"也有人口口聲聲拿著民進黨之前的版本號稱說民進黨之前支持的怎麼現在反對了彷彿現在擴選法案民進黨不同意是因為我們違背了當時我們的堅持跟要求不然呢正是因為過去的所提出的版本如果發現跟時代"},{"start":4202.037,"end":4202.698,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4224.457,"end":4250.163,"text":"原來的七個版本只有兩種條文語句啦就是公部門跟私部門或者是政府機關及公司及商業就這樣兩種版本而已啊一個是公部門私部門一個是政府機關及商業就這樣子啊這也是公司啊兩個是一個是公司部門一個是公跟商業部門一樣的意思其實原來的七個版本都是說公司併進但是"},{"start":4252.984,"end":4272.706,"text":"召委所提出來的修正動議其實是說以公部門為主外擴到國營事業剛剛有提到說國營事業定義有啊國營事業法有寫啊有三個定義啊但是為什麼還是在張禮石委員會上是不能達成共識呢大家還是覺得是不是由公部門來先做還是由黨團堅持一定要公私並進同時來做"},{"start":4274.668,"end":4290.328,"text":"那大家對公私併進大家擔心的並不是對於所謂的大財團這些社會動輒觀瞻的大財團的這些揭弊大家擔心的是以台灣中小企業的體質這麼的多的私部門能否承擔當然大家也提到了剛剛也聽到了對這些私部門"},{"start":4291.414,"end":4306.707,"text":"也擔心過度的擾民對於中小企業把這個揭弊者的這樣的法條設計要他們來承受法尊的成本似乎呢有違我們社會一般的常理所以大家才會在私部門要不要同時公司併進採了一個"},{"start":4309.861,"end":4311.102,"text":"今天不在場的是國民黨黨團國民黨黨團提了五個版本"},{"start":4334.468,"end":4363.808,"text":"提了五個版本啊沒有人到場啊民進黨有一個版本啊民眾黨有一個版本啊我們的版本有些些微的不同我們拿出來討論所以今天如果黨團協商不能達成共識是因為黨團並未全員到齊其實就算是如此我還是要誠懇的建議我們的主席過去有黨團未出席的情況之下如果大家願意交換意見也很好但是如果覺得有黨團缺席我們無法進行推進不可能達成協商的共識那就到此為止我也不反對"},{"start":4364.668,"end":4383.109,"text":"但是今天絕對不是說誰或哪個黨團誰的立場反覆或者說對這樣的一個利益崇高良善的一個目的我們有所保留又質疑迴避或辜負了社會的期待沒有這樣的情況我們希望揭弊者保護法能夠"},{"start":4384.17,"end":4411.392,"text":"能夠穩健地踏出第一步就像當年的國民法官法爭論很多參審製陪審製討論很多但是我們終究踏出了第一步所以我想以國民法官法的推動為例我希望我們是穩健地踏步但是至於說要用過去的所謂的什麼國事會議司法國事會議年金改革國事會議以這樣的一個標準要求大家一起遵行那先看看自己的立場有沒有前後反覆再說"},{"start":4414.464,"end":4429.735,"text":"黃委員那個今天看起來我目前在檯面上面的單本事實上大的政策立場上只有兩種一種就是公司部門都要有一種是公司部門都要有現在目前所提出來的"},{"start":4441.357,"end":4447.459,"text":"1234567我看了目前檯面上的7個版本全部都是公司部門要處理包括了民進黨林月琴等17人提案也是公司部門要處理第二個朝野的修正動議有把它限縮到國營企業這個是第二種版本"},{"start":4467.848,"end":4493.221,"text":"第三種版本如果只要有公部門的話我到目前為止在檯面上面根本沒有看到只有公部門的提案完全沒有看到只有公部門的提案在完全沒有看到有公部門提案之下我們接下來討論的標的只有兩種情況一個是什麼一個是公司部門合併第二個就是召委所提出來的修正版本"},{"start":4500.294,"end":4506.823,"text":"所以今天如果黨團協商沒有辦法繼續下去那就沒有辦法繼續下去嘛我們接下來就按照議事規則來進行"},{"start":4511.474,"end":4534.623,"text":"因為今天有黨團代表沒有出席那我想說也沒有辦法達成共識那即使今天只有民眾黨跟民進黨代表也都有對於一些東西根本就沒有辦法達成共識那我想說對於那個國民黨今天確實是沒有來因為今天到場的兩位都沒有辦法達成共識那國民黨還只是更不會達成共識"},{"start":4536.704,"end":4565.282,"text":"不是啦!不是啦!不是啦!我是說...哎呀!你...那個齁...那個...我覺得每次都...每次都斷章取義別人的意見算了那我就不多說了這種齁...我這真的是...沒有啦!朝野我具體建議啦!沒有啦!沒有關係啦!我知道你很辛苦從委員會審查一直到今天誰想要推進這個法案"},{"start":4566.702,"end":4579.526,"text":"誰不想推進這個法案每一個人都在看大家心裡都有數所有的人關心的人大家都在看大家心裡都有數根本不用多說什麼啦那現實上面就是我們就按照意識規則處理"},{"start":4587.112,"end":4614.233,"text":"我主張要只限於公部門的就請你們趕快把版本拿出來要不然的話超級可笑只有一種抽象的主張說只要公部門那只要公部門的版本在哪裡沒有啊行政部門沒有提執政黨的立委沒有提我們怎麼會討論一個根本就不存在的法案呢完全到目前為止檯面上沒有任何一個版本是只規範公部門的啊"},{"start":4615.205,"end":4618.995,"text":"花了這麼多時間去討論一個根本不存在的提案這要讓國人看一下的話"},{"start":4624.588,"end":4645.647,"text":"有主張只要限規範公佈門的那就拜託趕快把版本提出來那沒有的話我們接下來就按照議事規則走我很尊重昭偉我也知道昭偉你提你的修正動議基本上是希望在現實的情況下法案走得比較順利您提的修正動議中國國民黨黨團的立場我們都尊重"},{"start":4648.618,"end":4676.989,"text":"但台灣民眾黨黨團有台灣民眾黨黨團的政策立場跟我們的堅持因為我看到那個民調的結果我不可能看到這麼高比例的民調將近八成是支持公司部門同時要處理然後我放著這個民調的結果裝作沒有看到用各式各樣的理由要去幫一些財團開脫我打開天窗塑料化這件事情絕對不可能"},{"start":4678.203,"end":4706.702,"text":"我到院會表決書都沒有關係啊在院會表決留下記錄嘛每一個黨團為他自己所提出來的版本負責任那行政部門提不出任何的版本這個也不是什麼奇怪的事情啊常常很多重要的、關鍵的法案我們的行政部門卻於提出他們的版本表達自己的政策立場揭弊者保護法也不是第一個啊"},{"start":4708.089,"end":4722.265,"text":"之前跳票的集合法也沒提出來啊兩岸協議監督條例也沒提出來啊所在多有啊那行政部門反正都是尊重本院的審議嘛那尊重本院的審議就既有的版本拿出來按照議事規則處理以上"},{"start":4727.697,"end":4741.303,"text":"謝謝黃委員因為我立場是這樣就是說其實中國國民黨有提出五個版本嘛那我自己當初也是希望是公司部門都包含在內那當然後來我是希望蠻希望說這"},{"start":4743.384,"end":4763.797,"text":"這個揭弊者保護法能夠趕快的過關所以我在範圍的部分我自己有稍微限縮一點但是我有提了一個附帶決議就是即使我有限縮但是我也要求三年的時間後要把它加進去所以我覺得每個人都有每個人立場那我們都是彼此尊重大家對於法律的見解提出"},{"start":4766.178,"end":4792.368,"text":"其實大家也都看得出來啦其實以國民黨立場或是民眾黨立場都非常希望這個法案能夠趕快過即使我們對於這個範圍的部分也許大家有不同的意見但這個都可以在日後的比如朝野協商什麼他們都可以達成一個共識那我們也會對於最後出來的那共識予以尊重這也是我的立場但如果說最後大家的決議認為說公司全部包進去那我也是接受啊"},{"start":4792.748,"end":4812.899,"text":"我想說就是每個人提出自己的想法但是我的想法就是的主軸還是希望這個法案能夠趕快過關我想說跟大家的想法是一樣的那因為民進黨他一直沒有提出一個東西出來他一直講一些理念所以我們也不可能再等下去啦因為好像林委員那個話有撤調是不是"},{"start":4816.531,"end":4837.049,"text":"那個我要說明一下林委員撤掉那個我們已經提出覆議了那我必須要清楚的說明啊原則上各個委員提的版本他要撤我每意見但這個情況不一樣我們在司法法制委員會認真討論每一個條文包括他的版本在裡面"},{"start":4839.91,"end":4858.611,"text":"甚至通過了他的版本對 有一條是通過還是民進黨黨團認為要接受他的版本司法法制委員會都已經審議完了還通過了那個條文然後才說他要把他的法案撤回那我們那天在司法法制委員會那麼認真在審法案的立委大家都是什麼 吃飽太閒喔"},{"start":4860.683,"end":4889.146,"text":"所以台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚啊我們是不同意他把那個給撤回啦他那個把撤回了那我們在社會法制委員會好不容易過的那個條文所花的時間全部都周恩發掉了沒有道理啊讓他沒有道理去容認啦這樣浪費大家時間的行為那因為這樣齁就是因為剛剛鍾釗緯講那個也不是啦因為我不是說把今天"},{"start":4890.981,"end":4891.221,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4915.235,"end":4942.541,"text":"兩個政黨我沒有那個話我覺得每次講話都被斷章取義我也不是很喜歡這樣那我想說不管如何今天我們的協商確實事實就是因為有黨團代表沒有出席所以沒有辦法達成共識所以我們後續還是依照以往我們的做法我們就依據立法院職權刑事法第12章的規定辦理我想說我們就這樣子處理了那請問黃委員還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":4944.164,"end":4958.259,"text":"同意就按照議事規則處理好謝謝黃委員這樣的話我們今天的協商就沒有成立後續我們就依據資源刑事法第12章的規定辦理那就謝謝各位現在就散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:19.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:22.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝各位列席的首長、官員，因為時間已到，我們現在開始開會。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:22.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:23.646000+08:00","text":"今天\n民進黨團總召、幹事長都到了；台灣民眾黨團黃總召也到了；國民黨團三位黨團幹部要慢一點\n才能到現場，張嘉郡副書記長……","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:23.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:24.646000+08:00","text":"等一下沒有關係，等傅總召來嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:24.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:25.646000+08:00","text":"他們要一個小時。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:25.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:26.646000+08:00","text":"他們要一個小時？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:26.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:27.646000+08:00","text":"我先來啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:27.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:28.646000+08:00","text":"你們整黨落跑啊，跑哪裡去啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:28.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:29.646000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我們先繼續審查，然後看大家有什麼寶貴意見還是一樣提出來。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:29.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:30.646000+08:00","text":"我們現在還是回到昨天那個停滯點上，我們繼續針對 113 年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算經\n濟委員會非營業部分保留案進行協商，今天我們要繼續來審查國發會主管促進轉型正義基金 1\n案，以及農業部主管的農業特別收入基金 4 案。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:30.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:31.646000+08:00","text":"非常歡迎今天列席的行政院陳主計長，熱情歡迎您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:31.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:32.646000+08:00","text":"國家發展委員會的劉主委，熱情歡迎您\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:32.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:33.646000+08:00","text":"農業部的陳部長，熱情歡迎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:33.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:34.646000+08:00","text":"我們現在還是回到昨天那個促進轉型正義基金……","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:34.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:35.646000+08:00","text":"院長，因為陳玉珍委員對於促進轉型正義基金有比較強烈的意見，他正在路上馬上就\n要過來了，我們是不是可以先談農業作業基金的部分，這個保留等他們來再談，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:35.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:36.646000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，那這樣子哪一個案子要等哪個委員，這個都很怪吧，那黨鞭的時間都在\n這裡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:36.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:37.646000+08:00","text":"所以建議院長，我們就照……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:37.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:38.646000+08:00","text":"了解，了解、了解，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:38.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:39.646000+08:00","text":"嘉郡委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:39.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:40.646000+08:00","text":"院長，我想講一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:40.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:41.646000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我們還是在第 38 案，我們邊討論邊等陳玉珍委員，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:41.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:42.646000+08:00","text":"請，柯總召請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:42.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:43.646000+08:00","text":"也不用什麼等啦，他要資料，等一下國發會補給他嘛，至於本案第 38 案，我們就敬\n協 2\n表同意，要表決就表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:43.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:44.646000+08:00","text":"表決，不是保留，表決啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:44.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:45.646000+08:00","text":"第 38 案保留送院會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:45.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:46.646000+08:00","text":"那接下來我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:46.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:47.646000+08:00","text":"等一下，陳玉珍來了，他要的資料趕快給他。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:47.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:48.646000+08:00","text":"那國發會劉主委，麻煩陳玉珍委員索取的資料，麻煩一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:48.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:49.646000+08:00","text":"已經送了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:49.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:50.646000+08:00","text":"他有給我，但是有一個部分不完全，所以我後來有跟他講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:50.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:51.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝劉主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:51.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:52.646000+08:00","text":"那我們接下來進入到第 91 案農業……那個保留了，保留了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:52.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:53.646000+08:00","text":"我們現在進\n入……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:53.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:54.646000+08:00","text":"國發會可以請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:54.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:55.646000+08:00","text":"國發會劉主委跟各位官員請回，微笑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:55.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:56.646000+08:00","text":"無保請回、無保請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:56.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:57.646000+08:00","text":"我們要看第 91 案、第 92 案、第 93 案、第 94 案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:57.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:58.646000+08:00","text":"院長，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:58.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:02:59.646000+08:00","text":"是不是可以請他們先留步？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:02:59.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:00.646000+08:00","text":"OK，劉主委，對不起，請稍待一下。請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:00.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:01.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:01.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:02.646000+08:00","text":"因為表決歸表決，我們也是到現在這個時刻，才比較有機會看他們具體執\n行的狀況跟執行的細目，那當然，具體執行的狀況跟執行的細目裡面所直接牽涉到的問題，恐\n怕也不是在這個協商裡面可以一件一件去細究，那個要等到其他的場合適當的時機再來一件一\n件的細究。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:02.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:03.646000+08:00","text":"我相信促進轉型正義這樣的理念大家都支持，只不過說從過去促轉委員會成立以來\n風波就不斷，導致促轉委員會本身，已經終結的促轉委員會本身恐怕就是傷害促進轉型正義最\n嚴重的一個機構。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:03.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:04.646000+08:00","text":"在支持促進轉型正義這樣的理念下，我們納稅人的錢到底怎麼樣具體實踐在\n各個計畫當中，恐怕也是立法院應該要認真來加以審查監督的事項，我想這個是第一個基本的\n原則。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:04.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:05.646000+08:00","text":"第二個是剛好在昨天協商完了以後，陳玉珍委員所提的一些問題逐漸地讓我們有機會看\n到更細的資料，那看完了資料以後，我想還是希望能夠藉由在協商的時候，行政部門既然都來\n了，就請他們稍微說明一下，要不然有的時候我看這個實際執行的狀況，跟我們坐在這邊審預\n算到底有什麼積極的意義，兩者之間的連結有的時候會讓人產生困惑，所以才想要利用這個機\n會稍微詢問一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:05.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:06.646000+08:00","text":"法務部應該是在昨天晚上或是今天早上拿來的，本來部會的預算是 386 萬，\n那我們現在看到所預估的執行數到年底已經到了 834 萬，我的第一個問題是，本來編的預算是\n386 萬，那現在實際執行完的就已經超過這個數額，到年底預估要 834 萬，預估的執行率是\n215.69%，請問這個多的錢是從什麼地方來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:06.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:07.646000+08:00","text":"這個是我的第一個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:07.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:08.646000+08:00","text":"第二個問題是想要請教一下我們的主計長，如果這樣做是沒有問題的，不管你是要用流用還\n是用勻支，那我們一開始在審這個預算、在劃定預算額數的時候到底有什麼意義啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:08.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:09.646000+08:00","text":"就是什麼\n部門、什麼計畫、寫多少錢是一回事，在最後執行的時候，那個不是差 10%、20%，那個是差了\n協 3\n百分之兩百多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:09.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:10.646000+08:00","text":"我看了這個數字以後就一直在思考，我們很仔細地針對每一個計畫案的內容跟\n數字來進行討論或者是來進行預算的監督，到底是在做什麼事情，就這個部分是不是可以先請\n教一下法務部跟主計長？","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:10.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:11.646000+08:00","text":"請他們稍微說明一下，讓大家可以理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:11.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:12.646000+08:00","text":"您現在是提 A、B 兩個問題嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:12.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:13.646000+08:00","text":"A 就是法務部這邊執行的情況；B 是請主計長針對預算如果\n超用的話說明怎麼辦。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:13.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:14.646000+08:00","text":"那我們先請主計長回答之後再回到法務部這邊，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:14.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:15.646000+08:00","text":"陳主計長，現在黃國昌總召提出這\n個問題，請答復，好嗎？","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:15.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:16.646000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:16.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:17.646000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們本來是同計畫就沒有所謂的勻支、流用的問題，當初這個部分就是\n因為是在同計畫裡面，然後後來又因為有法令修正通過，所以有一些項目必須要執行，所以這\n個部分是在同計畫中的項目裡面來做執行，並沒有所謂的用途別流用的問題，所以這個部分我\n們就沒有涉及到流用的問題，以上補充。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:17.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:18.646000+08:00","text":"我再進一步請教一下我們的主計長，您所講的同計畫指的是最上位的那個計畫嗎？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:18.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:19.646000+08:00","text":"那個最上位的計畫的名稱是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:19.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:20.646000+08:00","text":"是促進轉型正義的計畫這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:20.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:21.646000+08:00","text":"所以你是說在促進轉型正義的這個計畫裡，雖然我們一開始針對各個部會要執行的工\n作進行了分配，但是一旦這個預算過了以後，不管過的金額是多少，各個部會到底最後要執行\n多少其實都沒有關係，因為都是在同一個計畫項下嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:21.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:22.646000+08:00","text":"不是，這個部分因為有一個管理會，所以這個部分如果有一些修正計畫，就提到管\n理會來報告、來審查，在審查通過以後，就照管理會的審查結論來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:22.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:23.646000+08:00","text":"好，那我再進一步具體請教，這個計畫總共的數額是多少錢？一億……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:23.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:24.646000+08:00","text":"一億四千九。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:24.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:25.646000+08:00","text":"一億四千九。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:25.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:26.646000+08:00","text":"所謂的管理費裡面編了多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:26.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:27.646000+08:00","text":"不是，不是管理費，是說管理委員會……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:27.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:28.646000+08:00","text":"剛剛你不是說管理費嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:28.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:29.646000+08:00","text":"管理委員會，它會經過管理委員會的審查。是。然後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:29.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:30.646000+08:00","text":"但是所謂管理委員會的審查，也是行政機關內部嘛！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:30.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:31.646000+08:00","text":"跟我現在在意的是立法機關的監督，恐怕是兩個不同層次的事情嘛！協 4是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:31.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:32.646000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是在這個一億四千多萬裡面，經過行政機關內部自己所設的管理委員會\n，各個部會裡面，它的錢要怎麼花、要怎麼支應，只要是在一個這麼大的計畫範圍當中，其實\n都可以用？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:32.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:33.646000+08:00","text":"對，一般如果說它這個部分沒有涉及到用途別的流用，是裡面內部計畫……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:33.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:34.646000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，先停一下啦！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:34.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:35.646000+08:00","text":"我們現在在討論的問題其實沒這麼複雜，我一開始請教你的時候，你已經說得很清楚\n了，在同一個計畫下沒有所謂流用，也沒有所謂勻支的問題。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:35.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:36.646000+08:00","text":"因此，我剛剛請教的這個大的計畫，就是促進轉型正義的這個計畫，這個計畫有一億\n四千多萬嘛，所以按照你剛剛的說明跟定義，這個都是在同一個計畫項下，沒有勻支的問題，\n沒有流用的問題，唯一的問題就是在你們行政部門內部設一個管理委員會，然後那個管理委員\n會可以決定這個錢要怎麼分配、到哪個部會、用在什麼用途、用多少錢，我這樣的理解應該是\n正確的嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:36.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:37.646000+08:00","text":"他們要提計畫給委員會來審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:37.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:38.646000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:38.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:39.646000+08:00","text":"委員會審查，或者是哪一個單位執行有賸餘，這個部分就會移到由哪一個部會再來\n增加執行，是這樣，所以這個部分就會透過委員會來做一個運用。對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:39.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:40.646000+08:00","text":"就如同我剛剛所說的嘛！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:40.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:41.646000+08:00","text":"你所講的委員會也還是在你們行政部門內部的委員會嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:41.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:42.646000+08:00","text":"跟我在這邊所關心的立法部\n門監督的問題，是兩個不同層次的事情嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:42.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:43.646000+08:00","text":"因為這個事情講清楚，我覺得會比較好，所謂比較\n好，也讓我們立委就很清楚地知道，我們立法院在這邊審預算的時候，其實沒有必要看一個計\n畫下面個別細項的東西，因為那些細項的東西其實毫無意義啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:43.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:44.646000+08:00","text":"從國會監督的角度來講，因為\n過了以後，到行政部門內部，要用到哪個計畫，透過你們的分配機制、管理機制，要怎麼樣分\n配，這個都是行政部門自己可以決定的事嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:44.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:45.646000+08:00","text":"因為它還是同一個計畫，但是沒有特別……是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:45.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:46.646000+08:00","text":"您講過的話就不用再複述了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:46.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:47.646000+08:00","text":"所以對我們來講，重要的只有當初那個計畫，那\n個最高的計畫裡面編多少錢，裡面其他細的項目，其實意義不是很大，因為到了最後，你還是\n可以透過管理委員會所謂的機制，然後去做分配嘛，這也是為什麼我們現在看到法務部本來是\n386 萬，現在預計到年底執行要八百多萬，就是透過剛剛主計長所講的那個分配機制在分配。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:47.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:48.646000+08:00","text":"我這樣的理解應該沒有錯誤吧？是。協 5OK！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:48.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:49.646000+08:00","text":"接下來兩位委員發言，一個吳思瑤委員，一個陳玉珍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:49.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:50.646000+08:00","text":"但是容我提醒一下，本案我們已\n經送院會了，如果沒有其他議題……\n吳思瑤幹事長請發言，陳玉珍委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:50.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:51.646000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛本來要爭取發言，也是因為剛剛院長一開始對本案已經裁示要送院會了，\n所以我本來也不想再發言，但是我覺得剛剛黃總召的釐清，那我也再來補充作一下釐清跟說明\n，看主計長對於我們的理解，因為讓大家可以更了解促轉基金怎麼使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:51.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:52.646000+08:00","text":"促轉基金過去是促轉\n會，因為促轉會退場之後，就由國發會來接手，所以促轉會針對促進轉型正義基金，組成了管\n理委員會，也就是如同我們其他政府部門設定的基金一樣，都會有管理委員會，然後基金的支\n用，也會有促轉基金的收支保管運用辦法，類似這樣的運作機制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:52.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:53.646000+08:00","text":"而剛剛黃國昌委員所垂詢的\n事情都可以在行政院主管促轉基金附屬單位預算這一本的第 18 頁可以清楚地看到，也就是今（\n113）年度編列了 1 億 4,973 萬，這筆費用包括有業務宣傳費、有推展費，以及最大項的 1.4 億是\n用在捐助、補助及獎助，那捐助、補助及獎助用在哪裡呢？","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:53.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:54.646000+08:00","text":"它的支用遊戲規則是這樣的：是補\n助行政院所屬中央二級機關來辦理跟轉型正義有關的政策研議、執行、研究及教育推廣。","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:54.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:55.646000+08:00","text":"換言\n之，各個部會可以依這個計畫的主題去提起計畫，請這個管理委員會審查，如果獲得核可，就\n依據促轉基金的收支保管及運用辦法來支用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:55.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:56.646000+08:00","text":"所以以 113 年度來講，內政部有來申請，教育部、\n法務部、衛福部、文化部、原民會、國發會都有相關的申請案，經過基金管理委員會的審查，\n認為這個計畫是跟這個基金的主體計畫相符，所以就予以核准支用。","quality":0.075},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:56.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:57.646000+08:00","text":"今天立委在這裡針對決算行使我們的監督權，針對每個部會依規則來申請的經費用得\n是否到位，所以這是我們今天在這裡討論這個預算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:57.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:58.646000+08:00","text":"等一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:58.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:03:59.646000+08:00","text":"院長，好啦，好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:03:59.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:00.646000+08:00","text":"不要趕我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:00.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:01.646000+08:00","text":"大概就是剛剛主計長說的這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:01.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:02.646000+08:00","text":"對於這個案子，我們回到民進黨黨團，就是有疑\n義，就由院會處理，但是該釐清的就釐清，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:02.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:03.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:03.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:04.646000+08:00","text":"請陳玉珍委員，請控制時間，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:04.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:05.646000+08:00","text":"好，我很快，因為這個已經保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:05.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:06.646000+08:00","text":"我針對昨天問的問題，請他們提供的資料講清楚，\n因為剛剛我在議場前面聽到「吳造謠」委員、吳思瑤委員講說陳玉珍是不理性的立委，所以我\n一定要把我提出來的問題好好地、理性地問一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:06.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:07.646000+08:00","text":"第一個就是昨天我們在這邊的時候，我看國發會原來給我的表裡頭有一個沒有執行的，還有\n應該付的錢裡頭有一筆是法律費用，就是律師的費用是 7 萬 5,000 元，當然，我想昨天因為很匆\n忙，你們沒有辦法完全提供，但是在你們今天所提供的所有資料裡頭、在法務部的資料裡頭，\n我也沒有看到有關律師的費用，沒有列在這個計畫裡頭，不知道原因是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:07.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:08.646000+08:00","text":"協 6\n沒關係，因為我們時間寶貴，請會後再提供相關資料，就是你們所有這些全部的，到底是哪\n些單位支用了多少錢、什麼單位得標、執行的結果是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:08.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:09.646000+08:00","text":"請提供資料給我們參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:09.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:10.646000+08:00","text":"我舉一\n個例子來講，像剛剛……不要再講「吳造謠」，剛剛吳思瑤委員根據……因為他剛剛有說按照\n那個計畫嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:10.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:11.646000+08:00","text":"而我也看到你們推進轉型正義基金計畫申請及管考作業要點第十點有說，如果執\n行進度落後逾 10%，應就落後事項提出說明及因應對策，這是你們的作業要點嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:11.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:12.646000+08:00","text":"那我明白地\n看到，在這裡頭有一個內政部的部分，按照你們提供的表格，到目前為止是執行 56.13%，這不\n只是落後 10%，而是遠遠落後 30%以上！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:12.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:13.646000+08:00","text":"針對百分之二、三十的落後，是不是有請這些相關單\n位提出計畫、報告呢？","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:13.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:14.646000+08:00","text":"或者是……這個我想也要請你們提供資料給我們審酌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:14.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:15.646000+08:00","text":"另外，既然在這些委員會審查通過的計畫裡頭，你們可以這樣挪用的話，我不知道這個委員\n會的存在意義在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:15.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:16.646000+08:00","text":"是不是因為他們不夠權威？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:16.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:17.646000+08:00","text":"他們審查過的計畫被下面的執行人覺得：你\n們的計畫根本就不應該這個 100 萬、這個 200 萬，應該是這個 1,000 萬、這個 10 萬，所以我請\n你們提供這個所謂審查委員會的名單給我們，瞭解為什麼他們如此被蔑視？","quality":0.051},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:17.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:18.646000+08:00","text":"就以上這三點，就是這個計畫，因為你們提供的資料不實，昨天告訴我說……\n還有一點，最後一點最重要，因為這跟金門地區有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:18.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:19.646000+08:00","text":"關於金門、馬祖政治暴力創傷療癒\n需求工作模式探究，昨天在這裡明明白白的會議紀錄有，我問這個計畫是多少錢，他們說 50 萬\n，今天給我的資料是 213 萬！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:19.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:20.646000+08:00","text":"所以我們沒有通過立法院職權行使法的相關條文，你們在這裡說\n謊，我們就沒辦法罰你們！","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:20.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:21.646000+08:00","text":"是多少就多少，這個要照實說！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:21.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:22.646000+08:00","text":"我以上所提的這幾點，請列入會議紀錄，請他們會後提供資料過來，審查委員會的委員、執\n行落後有沒有……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:22.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:23.646000+08:00","text":"大家都是同樣的事一直在講，但是剛才有一點，行政部門所有審查委員的名單都是要\n去識別化的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:23.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:24.646000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:24.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:25.646000+08:00","text":"你怕公布這些名單嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:25.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:26.646000+08:00","text":"沒有，所有的審查委員名單都要去識別化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:26.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:27.646000+08:00","text":"這個是審查可以給誰預算，我們審查大法官的名單都不……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:27.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:28.646000+08:00","text":"去識別化……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:28.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:29.646000+08:00","text":"你擔心什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:29.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:30.646000+08:00","text":"裡面有什麼貓膩？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:30.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:31.646000+08:00","text":"什麼叫去識別化？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:31.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:32.646000+08:00","text":"我不用提供他們的個人資料喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:32.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:33.646000+08:00","text":"我\n只需要名單，看哪些人是審查委員會的成員，你這裡頭是不是因為……你們在裡面養人還是怎\n麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:33.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:34.646000+08:00","text":"你看原住民委員會諮詢名單是去識別化的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:34.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:35.646000+08:00","text":"換下一題了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:35.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:36.646000+08:00","text":"這件事有沒有領錢啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:36.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:37.646000+08:00","text":"有領國家的錢嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:37.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:38.646000+08:00","text":"院長，我一個程序問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:38.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:39.646000+08:00","text":"好，蔡易餘書記長有程序問題，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:39.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:40.646000+08:00","text":"院長，這是程序問題，因為你主持會議嘛，我覺得每一個委員在發言的時候，基本的\n禮貌要有，在稱呼別的委員的時候，用這樣不禮貌的……\n協 7","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:40.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:41.646000+08:00","text":"那我現場道歉，他叫吳思瑤，不是「吳造謠」……你看！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:41.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:42.646000+08:00","text":"不好意思，說錯話了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:42.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:43.646000+08:00","text":"沒有，這是故意的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:43.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:44.646000+08:00","text":"這是一個故意的行為，所以我覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:44.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:45.646000+08:00","text":"他說我不理性耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:45.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:46.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:46.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:47.646000+08:00","text":"剛才陳玉珍委員所提所有索取的資料，麻煩請國發會劉主委這邊準備，請送陳玉珍委員這邊\n來參考，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:47.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:48.646000+08:00","text":"請劉主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:48.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:49.646000+08:00","text":"好，我們會準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:49.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:50.646000+08:00","text":"非常感謝劉主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:50.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:51.646000+08:00","text":"國發會，主委跟所有列席的國發會官員就請離席，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:51.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:52.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:52.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:53.646000+08:00","text":"我們接下來進入第 91 案、第 92 案、第 93 案、第 94 案，我們這四個案，現在張啓楷委員所\n提第 91 案減列 2 億元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:53.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:54.646000+08:00","text":"張啓楷委員在現場，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:54.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:55.646000+08:00","text":"這個案子是臺灣民怨最深、人民最生氣的案子，而且到目前為止，連審計部都不願意\n核銷，這筆錢目前連審計部都沒有完成核銷的程序，所以我一共提了四個案子跟這個有關，都\n是進口雞蛋出了問題、超思的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:55.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:56.646000+08:00","text":"第一個，我要求減列 2 億，是因為它用了農業金庫發展基\n金的錢，可是農業金庫發展基金的目的是為了造福民眾跟扶植農業發展，請問進口雞蛋有造福\n到我們國內的農民嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:56.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:57.646000+08:00","text":"有發展農業發展嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:57.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:58.646000+08:00","text":"到現在每天不是缺蛋，就是蛋不夠，還在惡性循環\n當中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:58.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:04:59.646000+08:00","text":"第二個，監察院在 113 年的 8 月 30 日發布的調查報告提到，因為農業部跟中央畜產會疏於掌\n握民間企業自行進口的數量，也沒有確實掌握國內雞蛋產量已經慢慢回穩，導致同年 7 月份就\n出現庫存超過了 55 萬顆剩下的蛋，到同一年的 9 月 27 日，逾期的雞蛋高達 5,429 萬顆，導致我\n們人民民脂民膏損失了，監察院算出來的，損失費用高達 5 億 2,992 萬元，監察院明確講這個有\n缺失。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:59.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:00.646000+08:00","text":"所以我要求減列 1 億 5,000 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:00.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:01.646000+08:00","text":"第三個案子是產銷出了問題，監察院調查報告的意見九裡面講到，因為農業部疏於跟衛福部\n共同去研商進口雞蛋洗選的日期，沒有去積極輔導業者洗蛋之後，有效日期的計算方式，也就\n是監察院對於有效日期的保存期限是有相當疑慮的，這也是為什麼在去年我們吃到了一些壞蛋\n、買到了一些壞蛋，所以我要求針對這個項目減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:01.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:02.646000+08:00","text":"另外一個是洗產地的問題，監察院報告明確指出，農業部委託的雞蛋洗選業者在進口雞蛋以\n後，產地不是寫國外的產地，不是巴西，也不是土耳其，直接標示成臺灣，而且這個加工業者\n把超過 34 萬公斤的盒蛋加工變成液蛋以後，產地標示的也是臺灣，這是所謂的洗產地，所以我\n要求這個項目減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:02.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:03.646000+08:00","text":"所以我提出了四筆，從它的設置目的違反了農業發展基金造福農民跟發展農業，減列 2 億；\n然後浪費了我們人民的公帑，要求減列 1 億 5,000 萬；另外，害我們吃到壞蛋，減列 1,000 萬；\n另外，洗產地的問題減列 1,000 萬，以上。協 8","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:03.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:04.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝張啓楷委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:04.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:05.646000+08:00","text":"接下來請張嘉郡委員發言，蔡易餘書記長請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:05.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:06.646000+08:00","text":"基本上國民黨黨團這裡是支持民眾黨黨團針對農業發展基金使用的細節應該要能夠增\n進農民福利，這是非常重要的，因為這個雞蛋進口案已經是一個弊案，也顯示出農業基金使用\n的浮濫，可以說是沒有任何的規範，這一點我覺得等一下可能農業部也要好好解釋一下，農業\n發展基金本來就是應該要促進農民福利跟農業發展，為什麼會拿來補貼進口雞蛋呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:06.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:07.646000+08:00","text":"這對於農\n民的福利跟農業發展有什麼任何的幫助嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:07.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:08.646000+08:00","text":"如果這個基金可以這樣子浮濫使用的話，是不是侵\n占了農民真正的需求？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:08.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:09.646000+08:00","text":"農民真正的需求沒有受到照顧，而這一筆基金拿去用做其他的作為，為\n什麼農業部可以這樣子做？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:09.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:10.646000+08:00","text":"所以民眾黨所提出的減列，包括 2 億或者是 1.5 億，當然我們不希望\n影響到實際照顧農民的需求，但我覺得可能除了刪減部分之外，也應該要予以凍結，請農業部\n提出實際這筆基金運用的規範，要符合它設置的用途跟目的，假設它的使用都跟它的用途跟設\n置目的不符的話，那對農民也是一種損失啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:10.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:11.646000+08:00","text":"這一筆農業發展基金等於是愛怎麼用就怎麼用，\n我覺得這對農民是非常地不公平，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:11.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:12.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝張嘉郡委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:12.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:13.646000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘書記長發言完畢就請陳部長回答，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:13.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:14.646000+08:00","text":"請蔡書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:14.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:15.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:15.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:16.646000+08:00","text":"這一筆是農業發展基金，而且它是用在產銷調節，基本上產銷調節對於農\n民是非常地重要，現在雖然已經 12 月了，但是 12 月一樣會有很多農產品會出來，包括番茄類\n、玉米，甚至是其他在水產品的部分，包括虱目魚事實上現在都陸續要出來，就漁民來說，目\n前也確實虱目魚的價格都已經低了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:16.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:17.646000+08:00","text":"所以我認為在整個產銷調節的時候，它面對的是千百種的\n農產品品項，尤其今年颱風又特別多，我們知道，颱風多對於這一些蔬菜類的價格就會有很大\n的波動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:17.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:18.646000+08:00","text":"所以我們是具體建議，民眾黨的提案是針對 111 年跟 112 年那兩年雞蛋的狀況，那個時候雞蛋\n主要的狀況是因為禽流感造成缺蛋，所以有緊急進口的必要，當然後來有發生一些程序上的問\n題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:18.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:19.646000+08:00","text":"民眾黨想要檢討這件事，我們也不反對檢討這一件事情，但是我們處理在 113 年產銷調節的\n預算，那感覺上就變得是針對農業部，然後特別要去處罰它。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:19.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:20.646000+08:00","text":"事實上他們應該要接受調查，當\n時事件辦理不妥的地方應該要受到處罰，結果你現在去砍 113 年的預算，誠如我剛剛講的，今年\n的颱風又特別多，看起來今年產銷調節用的預算會比較多，尤其是就我了解，目前已經用了將\n近 3.5 億，到年底一定還會再繼續使用在剛才說的一些品項上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:20.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:21.646000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得如果真的要刪，那就\n酌刪就好，看 500 萬還是 1,000 萬，酌刪一樣達到他們的效果，因為一樣是要檢討 111、112 年\n度所發生的情況，而且事實上這個議題也講了好久嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:21.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:22.646000+08:00","text":"從林北好油的事件到現在，大家都一直\n深度地在討論整個雞蛋進口的狀況，都有在討論，也有發動調查，目前就讓它進行司法調查，\n該處罰的部分就要處罰，但是不要動到產銷調節的預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:22.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:23.646000+08:00","text":"我來自農業縣，我真的覺得這整個預\n算對農民來說非常地重要，要刪就酌刪就好。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:23.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:24.646000+08:00","text":"陳部長麻煩一下，針對剛才 3 位委員所提的請您答復之外，也請跟大家報告一下目前\n執行情況，謝謝。協 9","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:24.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:25.646000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:25.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:26.646000+08:00","text":"針對民眾黨張啓楷委員所提的這些疑問，還有剛才委員的疑問，我\n做幾個說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:26.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:27.646000+08:00","text":"第一個說明，在農發基金項下的產銷調節，它最主要的目的就是在穩定我們國內\n這些重要農產品的價格跟量，每一年我們針對包括颱風來的時候的產銷調節狀況，也針對當時\n被中國暫時停止輸入農產品以後，對國內造成的一些影響，所以我們在內銷、外銷及加工的部\n分，都是用這條經費來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:27.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:28.646000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，我們在這個項目裡面大概是編列 5.01 億，雖然到 11\n月底它的執行率已經達到 68%，但是因為計畫已經核定了，所以到年底預計應該會全部用完，\n甚至可能還會不夠，因為後續還有很多災後還在處理的過程，特別是這三個颱風後續還在處理\n的部分，我們還在做積極的輔導，這是第一個要說明的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:28.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:29.646000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，剛才張委員所提到有關於雞蛋的部分，我想有幾個說明：第一個部分，當初進\n口雞蛋之所以用這筆經費，是因為那時候國內的雞蛋產能不足，所以我們從國外進口，國外進\n口的時候，才有機會讓國內的蛋雞產業做復養，所以基本上這整個還是符合基金的用途，屬於\n農業發展，而且這些經費也經過特收基金管理委員會同意我們來使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:29.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:30.646000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，有關於過\n期蛋的部分，我們當初標示過期蛋時，因為有效期限是根據製程去決定的，而國內的習慣就是\n標示一個月，然後每一個進口雞蛋都有它的有效期限，我們送到洗選廠（場）時都有講，在歷\n次委員會我也都有說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:30.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:31.646000+08:00","text":"另外一個議題就是，有關於 108 年標示的部分，108 年沒有標示的問題\n，因為 108 年我們是進口雞蛋以後，跟國內的雞蛋用換的方式，到加工廠去做一些蛋糕等烹調\n類的原料，這個部分已經經過實質轉型，就沒有所謂產地標示的問題，以上簡單說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:31.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:32.646000+08:00","text":"張啓楷委員，我提醒你看，就是剛才用了 68%，預計年底可能會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:32.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:33.646000+08:00","text":"我看了農業部的資料，目前農業部基金的執行率是 66%，包括有一筆 112 年度過期\n雞蛋再利用的處理計畫，花了四千多萬，這個就是把它當成堆肥，就是剛剛我在講的，連監察\n院都認為是有問題，浪費那麼多民脂民膏。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:33.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:34.646000+08:00","text":"所以今天我會非常堅持這 4 筆刪除的錢，我會非常\n堅持！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:34.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:35.646000+08:00","text":"而且我會要求一個，最重要的就是農業部現在在做一件事情，你現在的決算是連審計部\n都不核准，你要怎麼去處理這件事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:35.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:36.646000+08:00","text":"你搬了人民納稅錢去，所以第一個，你要把責任追清楚\n，你要把該追的錢去追回來，這樣對人民才有交代啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:36.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:37.646000+08:00","text":"要不然立法院怎麼同意這筆錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:37.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:38.646000+08:00","text":"第二個\n，你講產銷很重要，你目前已經用了 66%，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:38.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:39.646000+08:00","text":"我剛剛看了，農糧產品已經花了 67%，漁\n產品小計大概也花了 52%，畜產品大概已經花了 73%，你該用的、對於農民有利的，你還是繼\n續去用，可是我剛剛講的，你光是要怎麼去跟全民交代你浪費的民脂民膏，第一個，你責任追\n清楚了沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:39.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:40.646000+08:00","text":"第二個，審計部不核銷你這筆錢，你要怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:40.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:41.646000+08:00","text":"第三個，你浪費人民的民脂民膏\n，你錢要怎麼追回來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:41.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:42.646000+08:00","text":"你不能拿我們的錢去補給中央畜產會，然後中央畜產會說，我們人民的\n錢已經給了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:42.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:43.646000+08:00","text":"哪有這種事情！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:43.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:44.646000+08:00","text":"這麼嚴重，浪費民脂民膏，我們就追到底啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:44.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:45.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:45.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:46.646000+08:00","text":"嘉郡委員請，然後吳思瑤幹事長請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:46.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:47.646000+08:00","text":"基本上我們是同意民眾黨黨團要求的一定要能夠講清楚、說明白，說這一筆費用到底\n是不是花得不正確？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:47.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:48.646000+08:00","text":"因為監察院在 113 年 8 月 30 日就公布，農業部進口雞蛋的專案未實際掌握\n民間企業自行進口的數量，而且也沒有掌握國內雞蛋產量回穩的情況，導致 7 月的庫存量逾 55\n協 10\n萬顆，然後同年 9 月過期雞蛋累計超過 5,429 萬顆，損失費用高達 5 億 2,997 萬。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:48.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:49.646000+08:00","text":"我們希望的是\n，這筆錢一定要用在真的是跟我們農民、我們的農產品有關的，而不是用在進口雞蛋上面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:49.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:50.646000+08:00","text":"當\n然，剛才主委有講說他們有處理的流程，包括他們相關的規範都有做出優化、都有做出調整，\n可不可以也提供你們對於這些相關的規範、這個基金使用的規範，你們到底做出了什麼樣的調\n整？","quality":0.064},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:50.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:51.646000+08:00","text":"也應該提供給大家知道，因為包括蔡易餘委員講的沒錯，我們都是來自農業縣，我們應該\n為農民把關，這些要調節產銷的基金就應該用在真正農民需要的刀口之上，而不是用在這種浮\n濫的、甚至產生一堆弊案的這種雞蛋專案之上，謝謝。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:51.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:52.646000+08:00","text":"而且我必須要補充一下，這當然是已經\n過去了，但是我們為什麼要這麼地認真檢討這件事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:52.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:53.646000+08:00","text":"就是希望這樣的事情不要再發生、不要\n再發生！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:53.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:54.646000+08:00","text":"過去就過去了，希望以後不要再發生一樣的事情，否則下次再來一個什麼樣子的弊案\n，我們也不知道嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:54.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:55.646000+08:00","text":"好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:55.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:56.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝張張嘉郡委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:56.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:57.646000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言完畢，我就要進行處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:57.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:58.646000+08:00","text":"好，這個案子編列的預算數是 5.01 億，民眾黨提的案子總共有 4 個案子，加總起來\n要刪減的金額是 3.7 億，換言之，把整個農業發展基金用於產銷調節的項下是刪減了 73%，我想\n這樣一個數字到年底、到 11 月，應當已經支用了 3.4 億左右，我的資料是這樣，這整筆來辦理\n產銷調節計畫的基金，我想我非常同意委員們針對該監督的事項來努力監督，民眾黨委員對於\n雞蛋的事件、對於農業部提出來的很多提醒，農業部未來都要列為精進的作為，相關是否有弊\n，司法也在查、監察院也在調查。","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:58.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:59.646000+08:00","text":"回到預算、行政部門的部分，我想這個刪減的比例實在高達 73%，這一筆錢都是用在農民身\n上，所有從各類的農糧產品到漁產品、到畜產品，不一而足，整個面對氣候的狀況、臨時突發\n的狀況或是國際的局勢，會衝擊農民生計的，其實我剛剛講農糧產品、漁產品、畜產品數十項\n，在野黨委員針對蛋的執行這一項絕對可以監督、提出異議，沒有問題，只是為了蛋這一項導\n致 73%的刪減額度，實在是在比例原則上，是真的要再審酌。","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:59.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:00.646000+08:00","text":"我如果沒有聽錯，剛剛部長、啓楷委員也有提到，針對那個蛋的部分，後來因為那個蛋，然\n後去填堆肥大概是四千多萬，如果對於這個執行，它很直接就是那個蛋產生、增加的支出，委\n員對於那個蛋的政策執行有疑義，它增加國庫支出四千多萬，如果要給農業部這樣子的警示，\n我會覺得不然就刪 4,000 萬，這是我的看法，都比現在被砍掉 3.7 億，這些都是農民所需要的，\n吻仔魚、虱目魚、黑鮪魚、鬼頭刀、我們的洋蔥、鳳梨、甘藍、芒果、鳳梨、釋迦、秋刀魚、\n柑橘這些東西，我自己在北投也是有農產的，我們山上也有桶柑，這些是不是太傷及無辜了？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:00.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:01.646000+08:00","text":"所以如果針對蛋的部分，我具體聽到的項目就是那個 4,000 萬，我聽到，不曉得合不合宜？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:01.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:02.646000+08:00","text":"真的\n要酌刪，對於刪減的這個額度實在太過當了，在這裡為我們廣大的農民朋友他們對於產銷的調\n節獲得基金的挹注跟協助，這是大有必要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:02.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:03.646000+08:00","text":"院長也對於農產非常了解，您也知道農民所需，所\n以這個部分是不是請民眾黨委員，勞煩在刪減的額度上再做斟酌，好嗎？","quality":0.102},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:03.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:04.646000+08:00","text":"好，對不起，張啓楷委員請聽這裡，剛才吳思瑤委員所提的建議就是說您列了刪減 3.7 億，\n它現在占 73%，他希望能不能刪減 4,000 萬左右，請問你同不同意這樣子一個吳思瑤所提出來的\n……\n協 11","quality":0.068},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:04.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:05.646000+08:00","text":"剛剛總召說至少是 1 億，你們的思瑤才提了 4,000 萬，我跟你講現在最重要的是人民\n的氣沒有消，這目前還是民怨很高的一個案子啦，我這個要處理啦！","quality":0.068},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:05.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:06.646000+08:00","text":"我建議這樣子，這個案子\n照我減列的先送到院會去，讓農業部去處理我剛剛……回應民眾的民怨，講清楚：第一個，到\n底審計部的這個錢沒有核銷，你要怎麼去處理；第二，你要追錢追責任嘛！","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:06.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:07.646000+08:00","text":"跟民眾交代清楚，\n在院會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:07.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:08.646000+08:00","text":"再來決定到底是要減列 1 億還是 4,000 萬，還是照我說的……","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:08.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:09.646000+08:00","text":"因為理由都講了非常多，啓楷委員，謝謝你。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:09.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:10.646000+08:00","text":"好，現在蔡易餘委員就針對同意不同意，好不\n好？","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:10.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:11.646000+08:00","text":"稍微等一下，請蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:11.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:12.646000+08:00","text":"你先說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:12.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:13.646000+08:00","text":"好，我先說一下，就是說，因為它現在已經有執行，也執行 68%了，然後如果照這\n樣砍下去的話，會變成說之前執行了……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:13.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:14.646000+08:00","text":"都不夠，所以說是不是先確定一件事情，如果\n要進入表決，然後要像張啓楷所說的砍這麼多，應該要砍在農業發展基金，而不要砍在產銷調\n節計畫裡面，因為產銷調節計畫裡面已經有使用的，那你現在把它砍了，它沒有辦法去找這個\n錢嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:14.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:15.646000+08:00","text":"再來第二個，事實上大家去思考，因為像我們昨天在處理國發會的出國旅費，國發會後\n來因為要被砍 190 萬，所以他們自己也去調整，他們原本規劃出國去做……它就取消了，所以\n我們現在如果砍了這些錢，萬一有什麼農產品事實上需要被執行要去做產銷調節的，農委會因\n為預算被砍了，結果就減少協助農民的力道，我們想要幫助這些農民，然後去做好監督，結果\n受災的是這些農民的百姓，我覺得我們這一件事再思考一下，如同我們幹事長說的，如果用\n4,000 萬針對雞蛋部分的支出把它砍掉，那這個是不是一個合理監督的範疇？","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:15.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:16.646000+08:00","text":"現在只要問接受不接受就好了，柯委員，其他的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:16.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:17.646000+08:00","text":"好，我講一下，我還沒講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:17.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:18.646000+08:00","text":"其他就請大家控制一下發言的範圍，好，請柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:18.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:19.646000+08:00","text":"我第一輪講，但是我聽了大家講話，我知道大家監督，監督可以，有問題移送法辦、\n靜待人家調查，但我今天針對這個事情要如何解決，我剛才有跟張啓楷委員講說，現在總共是 5\n億，產銷調節計畫 5 億，農委會今年用的已經超過 5 億了，不夠了，那你砍掉產銷調節計畫，\n後面還沒支出的部分完全沒有辦法動，所以你們……而且總共是不是砍了將近 70%？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:19.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:20.646000+08:00","text":"做不到啦\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:20.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:21.646000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才跟張啓楷拜託，就是說你要砍多少，1 億、2 億，那是一回事，但是像蔡易餘委員\n剛剛講的，一定要科目自行調整，這樣才能夠處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:21.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:22.646000+08:00","text":"張啓楷委員說他知道，但是先到院會再來\n處理，我們今天就把它處理掉，在院會的表決哪裡有時間大家再去處理這些問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:22.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:23.646000+08:00","text":"你要砍多少\n我們都尊重，但是科目自行調整，在從農業基金項下，這樣才能夠解決嘛，否則的話它現在已\n經用都不夠了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:23.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:24.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召，請陳玉珍委員，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:24.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:25.646000+08:00","text":"當然我們也是非常支持農民，但是農業部重要，我們藉由預算的監督，讓農業部要意\n識到說農民需要的不是只有補助，農民還需要怎麼給他們一樣發展的機會，這個才是重點，那\n協 12\n既然預算如果是沒有通過，你們就先行去用的話，這種叫做先霸王硬上弓、先生米煮成熟飯以\n後，回頭要我們來追認嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:25.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:26.646000+08:00","text":"所以我還是支持砍這個預算，讓農業部要深切地檢討，讓你們知道\n你們的工作不是只是撒幣，你們要幫助整個農業的發展，這個才是重點，所以本席還是支持砍\n預算。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:26.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:27.646000+08:00","text":"我跟大家報告一下，不是只有我最在乎，人民最在乎的是審計部不核定的錢到底要怎\n麼辦，你們要交代清楚，農業部要交代清楚，這個結要解開啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:27.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:28.646000+08:00","text":"你拿人民的納稅錢將近十億出\n去，這個錢審計部不認，你要怎麼解決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:28.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:29.646000+08:00","text":"這是一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:29.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:30.646000+08:00","text":"第二個，要把錢、把責任，錢你要追回來\n，要把責任追清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:30.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:31.646000+08:00","text":"這三個點：審計部不同意你們核錢，這你們到底要怎麼解決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:31.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:32.646000+08:00","text":"第二個，把\n責任追清楚；把錢追清楚，浪費人民的民脂民膏，把錢追回來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:32.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:33.646000+08:00","text":"這三個問題先解決，然後到了\n院會我們再決定你的執行率有多少，像你目前是 66%，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:33.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:34.646000+08:00","text":"68%，到時候你的執行率根本也不到嘛！","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:34.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:35.646000+08:00","text":"這是一個嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:35.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:36.646000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:36.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:37.646000+08:00","text":"第二個，讓全民知道\n你是負責任的，你要去解決問題，才有後面這個問題嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:37.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:38.646000+08:00","text":"你到目前態度都沒出來，也不解決民\n怨，不解決人民要求的，憑什麼過這筆預算？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:04:57.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:04.016000+08:00","text":"啓楷委員，我提醒因為你是提案委員，你現在同不同意？","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:04.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:05.016000+08:00","text":"剛才吳思瑤的你已經不同意了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:05.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:06.016000+08:00","text":"再來，柯總召提的項目自行調整……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:06.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:07.016000+08:00","text":"不同意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:07.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:08.016000+08:00","text":"他們如果有解決方案提來，到時候院會再談。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:08.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:05:09.016000+08:00","text":"也是不同意，好，第 91 案、第 92 案、第 93 案、第 94 案，我們保留送院會處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:05:04.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:11.504000+08:00","text":"啓楷，審計部的部分決算處理，和這個沒有關係啦！","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:11.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:17.637545+08:00","text":"那個到決算的時候再處理。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:17.637545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:23.771091+08:00","text":"我們補充宣告，昨天處理台糖公司第 4 案、第 5 案兩案保留，昨天沒有宣告清楚，我們補充\n宣告，謝謝。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:23.771091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:29.904636+08:00","text":"下面換教育組。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:29.904636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:36.038182+08:00","text":"院長，提醒一下，報告院長，有一個案子跟國民黨協調好的那一案，第 26 案同意改\n書面報告，這個有思銘委員同意的，所以要宣讀一下，謝謝。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:36.038182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:42.171727+08:00","text":"今天謝謝教育部鄭部長跟教育部所屬的各位官員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:42.171727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:48.305273+08:00","text":"現在進入教育部運動發展基金，但是第\n26 案黨團已經達成協議改為主決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:48.305273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:06:54.438818+08:00","text":"現在進入第 34 案，台灣民眾黨黨團提議減列 40%，請台灣民眾黨說明。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:06:54.438818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:07:00.572364+08:00","text":"第一個有關於……我先處理簡單的事情，因為現在院長處理第 34 案嘛！","quality":0.115},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:07:00.572364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:07:06.705909+08:00","text":"因為現在體\n育署的應該就剩下我們黨團提的第 34 案跟第 40 案，應該沒有其他的案子嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:07:06.705909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:07:12.839455+08:00","text":"不好意思，因為體育署的部分只剩下我們台灣民眾黨黨團的第 34 案跟第 40 案嘛！","quality":0.29},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:07:12.839455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:07:18.973000+08:00","text":"第 34 案跟第 40 案這兩案如果院長同意的話，我們一併處理，速度會比較快一點。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:07:18.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:11:50.169000+08:00","text":"我想我們還是慢一點，因為我們每次……\n協 13","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:11:51.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:42.036000+08:00","text":"好，可以，那就慢慢來了，沒有啦，我本來是想要讓部長跟署長早一點離開這個地方\n，不過沒有關係，我尊重院長的議事主持。","quality":0.367},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:42.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:44.192000+08:00","text":"因為我們老是覺得卡在一起、混在一起，事情更麻煩，乾脆……\n第 34 案。","quality":0.16},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:44.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:46.348000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，沒有問題，絕對尊重院長的議事主持。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:46.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:48.504000+08:00","text":"第一個是第 34 案，你們前兩年就編的預算跟決算落差非常大，我們就具體講，到今年為止，\n這四千五百多萬的預算，你們執行多少了？","quality":0.058},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:48.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:50.660000+08:00","text":"鄭部長，您直接連線、直接回答，不用再經過我了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:50.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:52.816000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:52.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:54.972000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心，到目前我們是 73%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:54.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:57.128000+08:00","text":"所以你們到年底要執行多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:57.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:13:59.284000+08:00","text":"就講具體的數字，這樣比較快一點，你本來是 4,555 萬\n嘛。對。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:13:59.284000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:01.440000+08:00","text":"那你們預計到年底要執行多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:01.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:03.596000+08:00","text":"因為你們前兩年的預算跟決算落差都蠻大的，所以你\n們到今年年底要執行到多少？","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:03.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:05.752000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，大概 3,500 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:05.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:07.908000+08:00","text":"3,500 萬，那我們這樣直接減 1,000 萬，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:07.908000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:10.064000+08:00","text":"你同意，這個案子就 OK 了。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:10.064000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:12.220000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:12.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:14.376000+08:00","text":"鄭部長，現在黃國昌總召正式提出來，減列 40%改為減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:14.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:14.476000+08:00","text":"可以，謝謝委員。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:18.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:19.099000+08:00","text":"好，我們也同意，就這樣處理。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:19.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:20.099000+08:00","text":"第 34 案，減列 1,000 萬，國民黨團有沒有意見？","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:19.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:19.700000+08:00","text":"沒有，好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:19.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:14:56.678000+08:00","text":"就減列 1,000 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:14:56.678000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:15:33.656000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝委員。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:15:33.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:17:36.228000+08:00","text":"現在進入第 40 案，台灣民眾黨團提出凍結 5%，請說明。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:17:36.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:18:31.270556+08:00","text":"就第 40 案的部分，我必須要先說明一下，我也要拜託教育部部長還有體育署署長，\n可能真的要再拜託你們，2017 年國民體育法的改革，我相信那個時候的改革是希望政府所有的\n錢都用到選手身上，這是我們所有納稅人大家共同的期待，當時我們的前總統蔡英文也清楚地\n講，協會存在的目的就是為了選手，當這個目的消失，或是它的功能被破壞的時候，協會沒有\n任何存在的意義。","quality":0.092},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:18:31.270556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:19:26.313111+08:00","text":"當 2017 年國民體育法通過了以後，這幾年下來，我相信部分不肖的協會怎麼\n樣胡搞瞎搞，去濫用體育署對協會的補助，這些事情我在歷次的質詢當中都講得非常清楚了，\n當然，其他各個部會有牽涉到的，包括審計部等等，他們也做了審計報告；體育署，你們說要\n找專業的會計師來進行查核，該給的時間我也給你們了，只不過我追了半天以後，你們會計師\n的查核報告還是只有給我摘要，沒有給我全部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:19:26.313111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:20:21.355667+08:00","text":"第一個就是，第 40 案的這個部分，因為這個沒\n有經過協會，直接到小學，所以第 40 案的部分我同意直接改，你們給我書面報告就好了，但是\n協 14\n我要拜託教育部跟體育署，善意不是單方面的，第 40 案，我同意你們改的，提書面報告給我就\n好，我也不會凍，但你們該給我的東西要給我，包括會計師的查核報告，可以承諾嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:20:21.355667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:21:16.398222+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，確實我們現在會計師已經完成初步報告跟建議，體育署會針對查核的事\n實裡面，再請這個協會做說明，我們在整個經費就會扣除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:21:16.398222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:22:11.440778+08:00","text":"所以目前來講，體育署已經要求迷\n你足球協會繳回補助款 103 萬；另外，我們接著馬上要做的就是，除了請協會再釐清會計師所\n查核的以外，我們要根據這個來追繳，我們當然也會判斷來作最後的決議，追繳不合規的補助\n款，同時停止對這個協會補助五年，以目前的法令，最高的懲罰就是五年內都不予補助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:22:11.440778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:23:06.483333+08:00","text":"目前\n的這個部分，我跟委員做這樣的補充說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:23:06.483333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:24:01.525889+08:00","text":"另外，有關經費上一些有疑慮的部分，審計部也已經移送檢調單位，這個部分也在這裡跟委\n員做這樣的報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:24:01.525889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:24:56.568444+08:00","text":"我已經釋出很大的善意，所以我就跟你說，這個案子我就不會堅持了，我只要你們給\n我書面報告，然後該給我的查核報告給我，這樣就好了，這樣部長可以同意嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:24:56.568444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:51.611000+08:00","text":"這個應該很簡\n單嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:51.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:52.132000+08:00","text":"我說得滿清楚的吧。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:52.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:53.132000+08:00","text":"敬表同意，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:53.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:54.132000+08:00","text":"OK，第 40 案就改主決議，提書面報告，請問各黨團有意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:54.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:55.132000+08:00","text":"沒意見，第 40 案就這樣子\n處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:55.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:56.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝教育部鄭部長、各位列席官員，謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:56.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:57.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:57.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:58.132000+08:00","text":"大家微笑離開。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:58.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:25:59.132000+08:00","text":"接下來交通組。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:25:59.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:00.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，我們現在交通的保留案共 10 案非營業基金，第一案是觀光發展基金，保\n留案號第 25 號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:00.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:01.132000+08:00","text":"我們歡迎列席的交通部陳部長，熱情歡迎；還有觀光署的周署長，歡迎您；國\n家通訊傳播委員會在旁邊，沒關係。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:02.132000+08:00","text":"我們先處理交通部的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:02.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:03.132000+08:00","text":"院長，對不起，有個會議詢問，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:03.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:04.132000+08:00","text":"抱歉、抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:04.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:05.132000+08:00","text":"馬上要進入交通部門，剛剛關於運發基金謝謝大家很快速的通過民眾黨的議案，也謝\n謝民眾黨委員相關的協助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:05.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:06.132000+08:00","text":"我有一個問題確認一下，因為當初在教育及文化委員會的時候有把\n整個運發基金凍了 100 萬，我想替教育部請求一下，因為整個基金這樣被凍的話，它的基金用\n途被凍，沒有辦法超支併決算，所以希望能夠請求免予凍結，不曉得有沒有可能？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:06.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:07.132000+08:00","text":"它數額很少\n，只是它後續的程序沒有辦法做，有沒有可能？","quality":0.087},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:08.132000+08:00","text":"我先提出來，你們研究一下，因為那個數額也\n很少，所以等一下列為今天會議的一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:08.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:09.132000+08:00","text":"我們稍微等一下，我們先談交通，最後我們再來。協 15","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:09.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:10.132000+08:00","text":"所以就是運發基金的基金用途被凍結了 100 萬，是在委員會的決議，那爭取……因為\n未來如果這樣的話，在程序上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:10.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:11.132000+08:00","text":"我們回頭再來處理這個，我們先調一下資料。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:11.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:12.132000+08:00","text":"好，勞煩，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:12.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:13.132000+08:00","text":"針對交通部觀光署、觀光發展基金的部分，台灣民眾黨黨團提議減列 2,000 萬，凍結十分之\n一，請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召說明。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:13.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:14.132000+08:00","text":"第一個，我要再次的跟交通部還有觀光署說，在觀光發展基金裡面，基本上最重要的\n用途就是要促進我們國內的觀光產業，在促進國內觀光產業的時候，我們有限的資源要用在刀\n口上，你們用這個基金辦了很多的活動，我有的時候如果我有空，我的習慣是不會去參加那種\n活動，上去拿麥克風講話沒有意義；我的習慣是，要不然自己去、要不然派人去，他們會從頭\n到尾把你們那個活動舉辦的實際狀況全部都記錄下來，帶回來給我看，因為我覺得這才是一個\n最有效的監督方式。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:14.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:15.132000+08:00","text":"那我必須要重申，我對你們在辦一些活動的時候，你們辦活動的 KPI 真的\n要好好地評估、好好地使用！","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:15.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:16.132000+08:00","text":"那我也可以打開天窗說亮話，這個案子我本來非常、非常地堅持\n，但是我們台灣民眾黨黨團前委員陳琬惠覺得東北部那邊的觀光……他幫你們開口，希望給觀\n光署機會，以後做得好一點，所以這個案子我不會堅持，請你們提書面資料，我相信這個善意\n釋放的很足夠了，我希望明年在執行這個基金預算的時候，不要再發生相同的狀況。以上。","quality":0.103},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:16.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:17.132000+08:00","text":"好，敬表同意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:17.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:18.132000+08:00","text":"黃國昌總召所提的第 25 案改主決議，改提書面報告，請問交通部跟觀光署？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:19.132000+08:00","text":"OK，各黨團可\n以接受？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:19.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:20.132000+08:00","text":"非常感謝，敬表……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:21.132000+08:00","text":"敬表同意講大聲一點！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:21.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:22.132000+08:00","text":"敬表同意，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:22.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:23.132000+08:00","text":"好，第 25 案就改主決議，提書面報告。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:23.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:24.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝交通部陳部長及各位列席官員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:24.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:25.132000+08:00","text":"接下來 NCC 共計 9 案，NCC 的陳代理主委，請坐，熱情歡迎您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:25.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:26.132000+08:00","text":"現在處理第 39 案，有關基金用途，國民黨團陳菁徽委員提議凍結 20%，請國民黨團提出說明\n。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:26.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:27.132000+08:00","text":"張智倫委員，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:27.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:28.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:28.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:29.132000+08:00","text":"我想通訊傳播監督管理基金是我們全民所重視的，因為現在通訊傳播\n監督管理的主要目的是完備電信設備、技術、法規及應用業務等所需支出，而且我們人民希望\n它是要有效施政，讓人民有感及安心，而不是來監督人民。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:29.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:30.132000+08:00","text":"考量日前有執政黨前官員公開表示，他可以透過基地臺的訊號來比對，即可掌握不同公民活\n動參與族群之間包含年齡、人員等個資的差異，引發民眾對自己的個資隱私權遭到電信業務監\n控之恐慌，至今還沒有一個正式的解釋，也沒有化解人民的疑慮，我們是希望可以見到主管機\n關 NCC（國家通訊傳播委員會）有進一步的說明，可是現在還沒有任何的說明。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:30.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:31.132000+08:00","text":"所以本黨團提\n協 16\n議要凍結「基金用途」預算數 20%，而且限期於一個月內向本院就「國人參與公民活動遭電信\n監控之改善規劃及有關執法作業說明」提出專案報告，並經同意後，始得動支。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:31.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:32.132000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:32.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:33.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，謝謝廖委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:33.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:34.132000+08:00","text":"關於這一案，先前在交通委員會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:34.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:35.132000+08:00","text":"抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，張委員，非常抱歉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:35.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:36.132000+08:00","text":"這一案我們先前已經啟動行政調查\n，也找三家電信業者以及是方電訊來查，並會同第三方的專家、資策會那邊做行政調查，並沒\n有查到任何違失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:36.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:37.132000+08:00","text":"先前在交通委員會的時候也有做過一些報告，也將書面報告提供給交通委員\n會的委員，針對後續的精進部分，我們也針對三家電信業者的定期化契約有所調整，要求一定\n要去識別化之後才可以提供給第三方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:37.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:38.132000+08:00","text":"另外一點是要依法或經過本人同意才可以做目的外的蒐\n集。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:38.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:39.132000+08:00","text":"第三個是一定要提供 up-and-out 的選擇權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:39.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:40.132000+08:00","text":"第二部分，我們也請業者要修正它的個資告知聲明事項，包括去識別化的技術採用什麼，還\n有它的 up-and-ou 管道為何。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:41.132000+08:00","text":"在進一步落實法制化的部分，我們也在依個資法授權訂定的個資安全維護辦法裡要求電信業\n者，如果它要做去識別化的一些應用，一定要揭露去識別化的方式、技術，另外還要取得國際\n或相關去識別化的認證，像 ISO 29100 或 CNS 29100-2。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:41.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:42.132000+08:00","text":"以上先簡單報告說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:42.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:43.132000+08:00","text":"好，主計室蔡主任也在場，現在的執行情況可以跟大家報告一下嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:44.132000+08:00","text":"是，報告院長跟各位委員，我們基金用途全年度預算數 5.16 億元，到 11 月執行 3.21\n億元，預估 12 月可以執行 1.83 億元，全年度可以執行 5 億 477 萬元，整個用途的部分，在交委\n會跟協商時已經刪減了 680 萬元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:44.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:45.132000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:45.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:46.132000+08:00","text":"各黨團幹部，針對這個執行的情況，在年底它大概還剩下 1,000 萬左右，請問各黨團幹部能\n不能表示一下意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:46.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:47.132000+08:00","text":"沒有用完的就刪掉，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:47.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:48.132000+08:00","text":"報告，我們預估剩餘數是 1,100 萬元，但是交委會跟協商已經刪減 680 萬元，因此剩\n餘數大概是 400 萬左右。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:48.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:49.132000+08:00","text":"那就刪掉啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:49.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:50.132000+08:00","text":"刪掉就好了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:50.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:51.132000+08:00","text":"刪掉沒用完的，再刪 400 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:51.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:52.132000+08:00","text":"他現在預估在年底還剩下 400 萬左右，請問各黨團能不能就這一點來表達意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:52.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:53.132000+08:00","text":"那就沒用完的都砍掉，我們能做最嚴厲的要求就是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:53.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:54.132000+08:00","text":"砍掉就好了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:54.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:55.132000+08:00","text":"已經執行完畢了啊！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:55.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:56.132000+08:00","text":"最嚴厲的要求就是把沒有執行完的都砍光，就這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:56.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:57.132000+08:00","text":"我的建議就是，因為不能老是用這個理由去逃避監督啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:57.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:58.132000+08:00","text":"當然它最後剩下的錢確實也\n不多，我的建議是這樣，減列那剩下的四百多萬，但是凍結的部分，我的建議是要調整成 10%\n協 17\n，你還是要提一個專案報告給我們，讓我們來去做事後檢討啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:58.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:26:59.132000+08:00","text":"你刪光就沒有凍結啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:26:59.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:00.132000+08:00","text":"你現在是要凍結還是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:00.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:01.132000+08:00","text":"因為刪光就沒有凍結了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:02.132000+08:00","text":"我要的就是他們還是要做專案報告啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:02.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:03.132000+08:00","text":"羅委員，院長，我講一下好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:03.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:04.132000+08:00","text":"刪光就沒有凍結了，沒有預算了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:04.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:05.132000+08:00","text":"那就還是一樣，就按照我們原案來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:05.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:06.132000+08:00","text":"不是啦！院長……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:06.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:07.132000+08:00","text":"等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:08.132000+08:00","text":"這個事情是這樣，這個預算是已經用掉了，只剩下 1,000 萬嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:08.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:09.132000+08:00","text":"可以把剩下的部分全\n部刪掉，已經用掉的你現在去刪也是不可能的事情嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:09.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:10.132000+08:00","text":"這要務實一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:10.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:11.132000+08:00","text":"至於專報以後才可以動\n支，持平而論，一個月內我們立法院都在……委員會排這個是有困難的喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:11.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:12.132000+08:00","text":"另外，羅智強委員\n，我跟你說明一下，這是我們立法院的問題，因為立法院對於營業及非營業的明年預算是現在\n才在審，主要是一開始在審的時候，當然是情況不一樣啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:12.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:13.132000+08:00","text":"這不是他們怠惰的問題，而是立法\n院的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:13.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:14.132000+08:00","text":"主席，因為對行政部門最嚴厲的監督就是把它的預算砍掉，所以我們也都達成同意，\n沒有用完的全部砍掉，我覺得對他們來講已經是很嚴厲的處罰，是不是就全部砍掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:14.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:15.132000+08:00","text":"如果要用\n凍結的話，就是主決議，然後交報告，始得動支。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:15.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:16.132000+08:00","text":"跟各黨團報告一下，現在 3 黨，看台灣民眾黨有沒有寶貴意見，現在減列 400 萬的話，有沒\n有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:16.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:17.132000+08:00","text":"我們基本上還是尊重提案黨團的立場啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:17.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:18.132000+08:00","text":"只是我也不曉得該怎麼講耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:19.132000+08:00","text":"幫你們把沒有\n用完的錢刪掉，對你們是最嚴厲的處罰，幫你們提高執行率還是最嚴厲的處罰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:19.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:20.132000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯我老\n實講我是聽不懂啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:21.132000+08:00","text":"但沒有關係，我們尊重提案黨團的意見，他們要堅持……不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:21.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:22.132000+08:00","text":"我是說\n尊重他們的意見啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:22.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:23.132000+08:00","text":"他們同意的範圍，我們敬表同意，他們不同意要院會處理，就院會處理，\n都可以啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:23.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:24.132000+08:00","text":"那這樣啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:24.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:25.132000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得關鍵還是要針對它的整個使用狀況，我覺得很難是說今天要用\n完，跟我講說現在剩下四百多萬，就當沒事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:25.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:26.132000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，那剩下的凍結啦！好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:26.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:27.132000+08:00","text":"我還是要求希望有一個報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:27.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:28.132000+08:00","text":"就四百多萬凍結，剩下還沒用完的凍結。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:28.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:29.132000+08:00","text":"要提書面報告嗎？要啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:29.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:30.132000+08:00","text":"當然要啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:30.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:31.132000+08:00","text":"要寫清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:31.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:32.132000+08:00","text":"就是剩餘數未支用完畢者凍結。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:32.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:33.132000+08:00","text":"第 39 案，3 個黨團我們凍結 400 萬……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:33.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:34.132000+08:00","text":"好，凍結 400 萬。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:34.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:35.132000+08:00","text":"第 40 案，民眾黨黨團提議第 40 案減列二分之一、247 萬 7,000 元，請台灣民眾黨黨團表達\n意見。","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:35.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:36.132000+08:00","text":"NCC 出國的旅費，去國外 425 萬，然後去中國 39 萬，去中國我看起來應該是沒有去\n嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:36.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:37.132000+08:00","text":"你們那個 425 萬，我請你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:37.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:38.132000+08:00","text":"陳代理主委，你直接可以回答，不用再經過主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:38.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:39.132000+08:00","text":"我直接看你們的細目，陳耀祥帶了一堆人跑去歐洲，搞了一趟回來花了 88 萬，這是\n你們給我的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:39.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:40.132000+08:00","text":"他跑去捷克參加什麼網際網路治理論壇嘛，只是我看陳耀祥去歐洲一趟參加什\n麼網際網路治理論壇，回來也沒有提出什麼精明的作為，你們 NCC 該做的一堆事情統統都沒有\n做，跑去國外幹嘛？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:41.132000+08:00","text":"我現在具體的講，因為審到這邊，處理上一屆國會該處理沒有處理的問題\n，搞得大家都很無奈，你們就擺出一副錢都已經花了，要不然要怎麼樣。","quality":0.103},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:41.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:42.132000+08:00","text":"陳耀祥也走了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:42.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:43.132000+08:00","text":"我在講話，你們也尊重一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:44.132000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:44.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:45.132000+08:00","text":"不是啦，我們會真的要這樣開下去嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:45.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:46.132000+08:00","text":"你確定要這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:46.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:47.132000+08:00","text":"我具體問啦，你現在到底花了多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:47.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:48.132000+08:00","text":"我們剩下還沒花的是 234 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:48.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:49.132000+08:00","text":"剩下還沒有花的有 234 萬，那剩的 234 萬全部都刪掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:49.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:50.132000+08:00","text":"是，我要特別說明的是，有兩個不可抗力因素。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:50.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:51.132000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們原來有一個計\n畫是 IIC，在美國華府開的，後來他們大會臨時改在泰國曼谷，所以那個費用就有落差，這是第\n一個不可抗力因素。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:51.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:52.132000+08:00","text":"第二個不可抗力因素，原來有一個數位人權大會在哥斯大黎加開，它取消\n了，延到明年，這兩部分的旅費加起來數目就很大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:52.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:53.132000+08:00","text":"另外補充，6 月份去歐洲 EuroDIG 那部分，\n其實有聯絡英國、法國一些類似我們的同儕機關，跟他們的一些交流也促成我們在 10 月份取得\nGOSRN 現在安全組織觀察員的身分，以上補充。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:53.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:54.132000+08:00","text":"所以結論減掉 234 萬，同意不同意？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:54.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:55.132000+08:00","text":"今年用得到嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:55.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:56.132000+08:00","text":"用不到刪掉就好了啊！協 19","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:56.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:57.132000+08:00","text":"報告委員，234 萬是預估剩餘數，交委會已經刪減 80 萬，大概剩餘 150 萬……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:57.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:58.132000+08:00","text":"那就刪 150 萬，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:58.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:27:59.132000+08:00","text":"用不到刪掉就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:27:59.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:00.132000+08:00","text":"那我們就照黃國昌總召所提，刪 150 萬。OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:00.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:01.132000+08:00","text":"國民黨團沒意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:02.132000+08:00","text":"好，第 40 案我們刪減 150 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:02.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:03.132000+08:00","text":"好，下一案，第 46 案，國民黨團提出凍結十分之一，請國民黨團表達意見。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:03.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:04.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席，我這邊還是想要提，NCC 過去一直以來很多的作法其實人民不能認\n同，當然，因為現在在審 113 年的預算，其實已經花了很多，可是我想要請教的是，過去一直以\n來，我們的通訊傳播監督管理基金到底還剩多少錢？","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:04.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:05.132000+08:00","text":"到底餘額是多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:05.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:06.132000+08:00","text":"因為基金是一個水庫\n的概念，當然我們也不是希望每一年度都需要有盈餘，可是我覺得 NCC 在管理這個基金有點不\n當，就是它不能因為我們還沒有開始審這個基金，就一直花、一直花、一直花，花到最後只剩\n一點點了，我相信在去年度的時候，你們的執行率也沒有那麼高，也是有一些剩餘，我是覺得\n你們 113 年度真的花得有比較多，所以這部分要請 NCC 改善。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:06.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:07.132000+08:00","text":"我還要特別提到，我們這個案由\n是什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:08.132000+08:00","text":"尤其很多民眾都有跟我們回復，他們說有惡質的媒體人與媒體，我們不要講是哪家\n媒體，在政論節目上烏龍爆料，誹謗無辜女性與前政治人物滾床單的這種事情遭起訴，NCC 曾\n經召開自律的諮詢委員會，可是裡面的委員居然說滾床單非負面名詞，而且一直延誤公布會議\n紀錄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:08.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:09.132000+08:00","text":"NCC 一直說媒體自律，可是我們認為它遇到事情有時候會轉彎，有不同的標準，所以我\n們還是希望 NCC 應該要好好發揮監督制衡的能力，並對這件事情提出書面報告，回復為什麼會\n有這樣的兩套標準，以及要回復我 NCC 這樣的基金到底還有多少錢。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:09.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:10.132000+08:00","text":"麻煩陳主委，請直接答復張智倫委員的詢問……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:10.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:11.132000+08:00","text":"這邊的文字描述跟事實有點落差，因為事實上新聞媒體業者是根據衛廣法第\n二十二條設的自律倫理委員會，他們的會議紀錄，是他們委員會裡頭的委員發言，不是 NCC 的\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:11.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:12.132000+08:00","text":"另外，其實我們 NCC 在今年也已經針對類似的情況罰了 9 件、320 萬。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:12.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:13.132000+08:00","text":"預算數 3,640 萬，到 11 月執行 2,140 萬，預估 12 月執行 1,349 萬，全年度預計執行\n3,490 萬，然後預估剩餘數是 150 萬，但是在交委會已經刪減 150 萬。理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:13.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:14.132000+08:00","text":"接下來請羅智強委員發言，黃國昌總召請準備。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:14.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:15.132000+08:00","text":"羅智強委員，你剛剛舉手了，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:15.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:16.132000+08:00","text":"因為不同的提案委員關切的問題不太相同，我們前面已經做了這個凍結，然後做報告\n的決議嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:16.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:17.132000+08:00","text":"現在我想說還是要把提案委員對於為什麼他們要採取凍結的這些理由，剛剛智倫委\n員已經講了，包括對於所謂的惡質媒體人的爆料，民視有召開的自律諮詢委員會，這是一個。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:17.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:18.132000+08:00","text":"另外也有提案委員提到，有鑑於通訊傳播監督管理基金在 113 年度透過委託的方式，將花費 500\n萬元辦理廣電媒體專業素養培訓及公民培力的業務，然考量相關內容、具體的成效以及成果揭\n露的規劃，都沒有相關說明，所以他認為這個也應該要請 NCC 能夠一併說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:19.132000+08:00","text":"另外還有委員也\n協 20\n提到臺灣詐騙情形嚴重，近年詐騙金額跟詐騙案件屢創新高，越打越詐，受社會大眾詬病，\nNCC 作為打詐的主管機關，重要性列為主管機關之首也不為過，通訊傳播監督管理基金也負責\n宣導防詐事項，他認為其中裡面編列的服務費用，顯然成效不彰，所以也希望能夠加以說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:19.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:20.132000+08:00","text":"另外還有委員對於臺灣性影像犯罪的情形很嚴重，這個部分也需要說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:21.132000+08:00","text":"另外也有針對所謂的\n委託辦理網際網路治理環境及諮詢服務業務的具體成效，也覺得沒有很清楚的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:21.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:22.132000+08:00","text":"所以大概\n以上的東西，我想還是要把大家的緣由先列述一下，將來再提報告的時候，希望 NCC 針對這些\n全部都能夠一併的報告。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:22.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:23.132000+08:00","text":"好，黃國昌總召請發言，柯總召請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:23.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:24.132000+08:00","text":"第一個，這個提案的是王鴻薇委員，基本上對王委員的提案，我是 100%支持，您是\n代理主委嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:24.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:25.132000+08:00","text":"我希望代理主委在面對這件事情的時候，請用嚴肅的態度面對 NCC 的責任，容我\n再說一次，請你用嚴肅的態度面對 NCC 的責任，我剛剛聽你在那邊陳述這件事情，說這個是業\n者自己開的自律倫理委員會，是沒有錯，但大家的問題是 NCC 做了什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:25.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:26.132000+08:00","text":"NCC 做了什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:26.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:27.132000+08:00","text":"每次\n來立法院報告，說廣電業者有自律的要求，要他們自律規範，結果開的那是什麼自律倫理委員\n會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:27.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:28.132000+08:00","text":"開到自己覺得可能丟人現眼啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:28.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:29.132000+08:00","text":"我回來立法院以前就在追這個案子，民視開那個什麼自律\n倫理委員會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:29.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:30.132000+08:00","text":"開到自己覺得丟人現眼，在那個自律倫理委員會裡面說什麼話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:30.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:31.132000+08:00","text":"說滾床單是負面\n名詞嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:31.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:32.132000+08:00","text":"對被害者造成了二度嚴重的傷害，到今天一句道歉都沒有，這種丟人現眼有自律倫理\n委員會的會議紀錄，後來自己知道不要公開比較好，直接從網路上面把它拿下來，就不公開，\n根本找不到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:32.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:33.132000+08:00","text":"我從 2022 年就開始追這件事情，我 2024 年回來，到 2024 年他們不曉得什麼時候\n，偷偷的又把那個補回去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:33.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:34.132000+08:00","text":"大家在質疑的事情是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:34.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:35.132000+08:00","text":"大家在質疑的事情是在整個過程當中，\n有能力去監管廣電媒體的，被害人沒有辦法，被害人只能開記者會哭訴，有能力監管廣電媒體\n的是你們 NCC 耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:35.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:36.132000+08:00","text":"民視憑什麼把那個會議紀錄撤下來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:36.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:37.132000+08:00","text":"什麼時候又偷偷補回去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:37.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:38.132000+08:00","text":"可以這樣幹喔\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:38.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:39.132000+08:00","text":"不用負任何責任喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:39.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:40.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黃總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:41.132000+08:00","text":"柯總召，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:41.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:42.132000+08:00","text":"我想這個是大包小嘛，最大的是第 39 案，所以國民黨以下的 7 個案子都是包在一起\n一併處理，補書面報告，羅智強委員講得很有道理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:42.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:43.132000+08:00","text":"至於黃國昌講的民視自律委員會的問題，\n請 NCC 用嚴肅的態度啦，你等等說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:44.132000+08:00","text":"黃國昌委員對這個案子，剛才聽說從 2022 年就開\n始追了，追到現在也水落石出、破案了，該送法院的都判刑責了嘛，有兩個人都判刑責，所以\n刑事責任法院已經判了嘛，至於後續的，當然誰做什麼事情各自本來就要負責的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:44.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:45.132000+08:00","text":"至於這個民\n間的自律委員會，我不知道 NCC 能夠管到什麼程度啦，這個你請說明就好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:45.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:46.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:46.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:47.132000+08:00","text":"第 40 案，陳代理主任，您可以稍微……您現在有話要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:47.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:48.132000+08:00","text":"我簡單補充一下，第 46 案我們照衛廣法的程序是請業者陳述意見，如果涉\n及事實查證，它要召開倫理委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:48.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:49.132000+08:00","text":"今天案子涉及到第二步驟，它召開倫理委員會之後，我們\n蒐集到資料，會在我們自己召開 NCC 的內容廣告節目諮詢委員會，我們自己有個諮詢委員會，\n協 21\n諮詢委員會上完之後，才會上我們委員會議，這是程序中第二個階段的事情而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:49.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:50.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝您的補充說明，第 46 案我們就凍結 10%，即十分之一，提書面報告，好，各位黨團幹\n部沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:50.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:51.132000+08:00","text":"我們進入第 54 案，國民黨團陳菁徽委員提議凍結 50%……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:51.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:52.132000+08:00","text":"全部要併在一起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:52.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:53.132000+08:00","text":"凍結二分之一，250 萬，國民黨團要補充說明嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:53.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:54.132000+08:00","text":"沒有了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:54.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:55.132000+08:00","text":"還是他搞錯了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:55.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:56.132000+08:00","text":"第 39 案是凍 400 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:56.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:57.132000+08:00","text":"對，應該是全部……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:57.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:58.132000+08:00","text":"大包小了嘛，第 39 案大包小，剛剛羅智強也講的很清楚了，請他們要說明嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:58.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:59.132000+08:00","text":"第 54 案我們就凍結提書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:59.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:00.132000+08:00","text":"第 57 案我們凍結提書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:00.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:01.132000+08:00","text":"第 60 案也是凍結提書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:02.132000+08:00","text":"第 61 案國民黨團陳菁徽提的……\n更正第 60 案改主決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:02.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:03.132000+08:00","text":"第 61 案國民黨團陳菁徽提的凍結二分之一，提書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:03.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:04.132000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:04.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:05.132000+08:00","text":"報告，是不是併第 39 案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:05.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:06.132000+08:00","text":"全部併了嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:06.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:07.132000+08:00","text":"併 39 案沒錯，它主要在第 39 案這個科目名稱嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:08.132000+08:00","text":"第 39 案已經大包小，包底下 7 個案子嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:08.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:09.132000+08:00","text":"而其他案子你要提出說明嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:09.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:10.132000+08:00","text":"針對他的要求說明……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:10.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:11.132000+08:00","text":"個別的，對，這合理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:11.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:12.132000+08:00","text":"好，第 62 案併委員會決議辦理，提出書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:12.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:13.132000+08:00","text":"第 63 案法制業務，台灣民政黨黨團提出凍結二分之一，黃國昌總召請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:13.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:14.132000+08:00","text":"他們花了一些錢了，所以 NCC 來的建議是凍結 10%，兩個月內提書面報告始得動支\n，這是你們的建議嗎？是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:14.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:15.132000+08:00","text":"我們建議是凍結十分之一，提書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:15.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:16.132000+08:00","text":"好，凍結十分之一，我可以同意，時間我願意拉長，給你拉到三個月，但是要提專案\n報告，經同意始得動支。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:16.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:17.132000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為法制業務計畫，其實它的預算數額並不大，只有 248 萬，它已經執行\n協 22\n了 241 萬 6,000，只有剩餘 6 萬 4,000 元，所以如果凍結的話，會影響到業務的處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:17.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:18.132000+08:00","text":"奇怪，如果凍結會影響到業務的處理，凍結 10%不是你們自己提的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:19.132000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我解釋一下，如果是專案報告的話會影響到決算的處理；如果是提書面報\n告的話，凍結數 10%是跟……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:19.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:20.132000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:21.132000+08:00","text":"反正書面報告提來了以後，不管裡面寫的內容是什麼，就自己\n解凍了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:21.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:22.132000+08:00","text":"所以對你們不會有困擾？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:22.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:23.132000+08:00","text":"提書面報告也是要到委員會這邊來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:23.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:24.132000+08:00","text":"我們一樣一樣來，不要把所有事情混在一起，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:24.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:25.132000+08:00","text":"第一個，凍結 10%是你們寫\n的耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:25.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:26.132000+08:00","text":"我已經同意了，你還要爭取凍結 10%這件事嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:26.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:27.132000+08:00","text":"第二個，我願意把時間拉長，拉長到 3\n個月，但這件事情我希望你們做專題報告，經同意始得動支。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:27.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:28.132000+08:00","text":"我知道，柯總召等一下發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:28.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:29.132000+08:00","text":"現在黃總召的意思是說，他同意你們所提出來的凍結十分之一\n，他也同意你們 2 個月之內的報告延長到 3 個月提書面報告，就是加一個專案報告，這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:29.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:30.132000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我們原來提案的建議是要改書面報告，所以凍結 10%加書面報告是\n同樣的，希望委員能夠同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:30.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:31.132000+08:00","text":"凍結 10%，提書面報告是標準配備，現在拆開來就不一樣了，對於本案，第 39 案已\n經全部處理了，全部併在一起處理就可以，因為剛才第 39 案大家都同意，所以就全部併到第 39\n案裡面統一處理了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:31.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:32.132000+08:00","text":"黃總召，現在柯總召說全部併到第 39 案，你的意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:32.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:33.132000+08:00","text":"其他黨團的提案我都尊重，現在在討論的是台灣民眾黨黨團的提案。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:33.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:34.132000+08:00","text":"第 63 案，現在台灣民眾黨黨團……陳代理主委跟主計長，現在黃總召所提的是一個比較寬\n的狀態，而且是在你們所同意的基礎之上，這應該沒有問題吧？","quality":0.136},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:34.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:35.132000+08:00","text":"報告委員，就是因為專案報告後始得動支的話，因為我們已經實支了，在決算的處理\n上就會有一些懸帳的問題，所以可不可以就改主決議，然後提專案報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:35.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:36.132000+08:00","text":"不行，我這樣講啦，我已經釋出非常大的善意，如果連這個你們都要爭執，那沒有關\n係，就維持原案，送院會處理。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:36.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:37.132000+08:00","text":"好，第 63 案保留，送院會處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:37.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:38.132000+08:00","text":"好，我們繼續往下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:38.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:39.132000+08:00","text":"等一下，院長，黃國昌委員既然這樣堅持的話，那也無所謂，後續是你們做帳的問題\n嘛，應該是這樣啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡主任惠娟","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:39.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:40.132000+08:00","text":"已經實支的經費就不能列為實支數，事實上這些業務的支出都已經支付了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:41.132000+08:00","text":"我知道，那是帳目作帳的問題了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:41.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:42.132000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我已經做了裁決，我們就不在回頭了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:42.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:43.132000+08:00","text":"這個部分我再說明一下，因為現在 248 萬，他已經用了 241 萬，只剩下 6 萬，所以\n你說要凍結 10%就會有問題，不能動支，因為你凍結起來不能動支，但是事實上他已經支用了\n協 23\n241 萬，只剩下 6、7 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:44.132000+08:00","text":"不能用了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:44.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:45.132000+08:00","text":"他已經用了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:45.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:46.132000+08:00","text":"用掉的就用掉了，剩下 6 萬就不能用了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:46.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:47.132000+08:00","text":"所以你現在凍結起來不能用，他就沒辦法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:47.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:48.132000+08:00","text":"剩下的 6 萬就不能用了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:48.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:49.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我們不再回頭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:49.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:50.132000+08:00","text":"我跟各位宣告，除第 40 案減列 150 萬之外，第 39 案、第 46 案、第 54 案、第 57 案、第 61\n案凍結，提書面報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:50.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:51.132000+08:00","text":"接下來我們還要繼續再宣告一下，第 39 案、第 46 案、第 54 案、第 57 案、第 61 案併案凍結\n400 萬元，提書面報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:51.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:52.132000+08:00","text":"那一案是院會處理，是不是？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:52.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:53.132000+08:00","text":"好，我們休息 10 分鐘，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:53.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:54.132000+08:00","text":"休息（11 時 30 分）\n繼續開會（11 時 44 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:54.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:55.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，請就位，我們開始了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:55.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:56.132000+08:00","text":"現在處理 113 年度附屬勞動部的就業安定基金，共 3 案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:56.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:57.132000+08:00","text":"今天所有列席的官員，首先我們歡迎\n勞動部洪部長，歡迎；衛福部的邱部長，歡迎您，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:57.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:58.132000+08:00","text":"我們第 8 項促進國民就業計畫，國民黨賴士葆委員提議減列 3 億元，請國民黨團表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:58.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:59.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:59.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:00.132000+08:00","text":"我們國民黨團提出有關於就業安定基金的部分，這是最近大家所重視的，\n不管是前任的勞動部許部長，他在這個基金的使用上有非常多的問題，我相信新聞媒體大家都\n很關注，現在在這個基金用途明細表裡面有一個叫做促進國民就業計畫裡面的「服務費用」，\n編列了八十多億，有列水電費、郵電費、旅費、裝訂費、維修保固費用、一般服務費、專業服\n務費等等，在 109 年到 111 年的時候，決算數字只有 72 億，可是我們剛剛有講，113 年的時候\n卻高達 84 億，而且過去的預決算實現率大概只有八成七到九成二，因為預算跟決算數字差異很\n多，大概有 10%的差異性，而且 113 年的時候還增列這麼多，我們希望應該要節省人民的納稅\n錢，所以我們建議刪除「服務費用」3 億元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:00.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:01.132000+08:00","text":"我們還是要提就業安定基金，一般來講，是要真的服務人民去就業，而不是當作是某些部會\n首長的零用錢，甚至很多媒體說這是小金庫，所以我要請部長來協助，到底就業安定基金的部\n分，如何好好去查詢到底有沒有被濫用，是不是你們自己一定要提一個專案報告來做檢討，因\n為我們大家都知道，上次到現在，就你們的調查報告裡面，其實針對就業安定基金的部分，好\n像是隻字未提，以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:02.132000+08:00","text":"洪部長，張智倫委員提了三個重點，第一，減列 3 億元，能不能接受？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:02.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:03.132000+08:00","text":"目前執行了多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:03.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:04.132000+08:00","text":"第\n協 24\n二，過去就業安定基金有沒有被違法濫用、挪用？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:04.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:05.132000+08:00","text":"第三，展望未來，安定基金要怎麼樣正確的\n定位？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:05.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:06.132000+08:00","text":"您先答復，剩下其他黨團要發言的，請在主席臺這裡登記，請洪部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:06.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:07.132000+08:00","text":"首先，先謝謝張智倫委員的一些提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:08.132000+08:00","text":"第一個，我先說明一下，因為這段時間大家都\n在討論就安基金的問題，在就安基金這件事情上，在我上任後，其實就馬上要求我們發展署開\n始進行檢討的作業，到目前、一直到今天，都還在召開這些檢討作業的會議，到時候一定會針\n對就安基金的改革方案，我們會拿出一個方案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:08.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:09.132000+08:00","text":"事實上，我在委員會裡面也有說，大概 1 個月\n左右的時間，我們必須拿出改革方案，因為我們很清楚知道現在還是在談 113 年的預算；114 年\n預算這部分也會是大家一個很重要的重點，所以這是第一點要說的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:09.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:10.132000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛剛講到有沒有相關弊端的事情，目前確實檢調已經在做相關的查察，我們的態度\n很清楚，我們絕對不會有任何的包庇，我們會全力配合檢調在這方面的查辦，絕對會查辦，有\n相關的事證會送檢調、送政風，我絕對不會逃避，這部分我們把我們的態度在這邊再說清楚一\n次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:10.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:11.132000+08:00","text":"再來一點，關於現在賴士葆委員的這個提案，也就是說，在就安基金下面有一個促進國民就\n業計畫上面的服務費用，我們查了之後發現，因為現在已經年底了，所以經費的使用率預計會\n到 99%，目前大概剩下 3 億元左右。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:11.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:12.132000+08:00","text":"預計到年底大概可以到 99%，業務單位提供的資料是可以到 99%，所以我們希望這\n部分能減少刪除。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:12.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:13.132000+08:00","text":"誠如剛剛洪部長的說明，就業安定基金不只是現在所處理的 113 年度國營事業及附屬\n單位的相關預算，其實新年度的預算也是大家所關切的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:13.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:14.132000+08:00","text":"我也非常同意不護短、不包庇，該改\n革就改革！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:14.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:15.132000+08:00","text":"回到預算書上，我就教部長，如果這個刪減數是在可以接受範圍的話，就同意刪減？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:15.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:16.132000+08:00","text":"如此我\n們也就同意刪減，也給大家一個很大的警惕。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:16.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:17.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:17.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:18.132000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:19.132000+08:00","text":"我們尊重提案黨黨團的提案，而且這個數字看起來抓得滿準的，把沒有花的都刪掉，\n這樣有助於提高他們的執行率。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:19.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:20.132000+08:00","text":"至於剛剛討論到就業安定基金過去到底怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:21.132000+08:00","text":"在提送相關\n資料時是不是有包庇、護短？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:21.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:22.132000+08:00","text":"但這個不是今天我要處理的問題，台灣民眾黨黨團對於就業安定\n基金的具體態度會呈現在明年預算處理上。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:22.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:23.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:23.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:24.132000+08:00","text":"請柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:24.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:25.132000+08:00","text":"方才各位都很清楚，新任部長洪部長以前是大家的老同事，講話也非常誠懇，在面對\n所有問題時都沒有迴避，該移送就移送。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:25.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:26.132000+08:00","text":"有關就業安定基金這三個提案，坦白講，只要依照剛\n才處理前面幾個案子的模式，就是用不到的錢把它刪掉，所以是不是要照這樣去刪減？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:26.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:27.132000+08:00","text":"而且刪\n減數這麼高？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:27.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:28.132000+08:00","text":"大家要斟酌一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:28.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:29.132000+08:00","text":"洪部長也講了，到年底會用到 99%，如果不到 99%的話，多刪\n一點也無所謂，用這模式來思考可能比較合理，因為上面幾個案子都是如此處理，明年他會好\n協 25\n好監管。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:29.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:30.132000+08:00","text":"首先，就業安定基金最近真的引起全民公憤，我覺得也不是光憑以後改進這句空話就\n可以督促的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:30.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:31.132000+08:00","text":"其實要督促政府機關，就好好把人民的憤怒記在心裡，大家來改進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:31.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:32.132000+08:00","text":"也就是說，\n你今天做得有多爛，我就砍你多少預算！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:32.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:33.132000+08:00","text":"現在報紙都說就業安定基金是小金庫、馬屁基金，還\n拿了三百多萬去開演唱會，拍什麼沙龍照，弄什麼會議室、咖啡豆、垃圾清運……就搞了八千\n萬！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:33.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:34.132000+08:00","text":"說真的，我們今天提議減列 3 億元是在幫政府，等於幫政府打鞭子，跟他說：如果你再亂\n搞，抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:34.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:35.132000+08:00","text":"明年別說 3 億，刪 30 億都可以，因為沒有好好幫人民把納稅錢用好，我的主張是這\n樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:35.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:36.132000+08:00","text":"既然洪部長很誠意，直接說還有 3 億元沒用，那就減列 3 億元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:36.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:37.132000+08:00","text":"我們就遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:37.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:38.132000+08:00","text":"還是一樣，雖然刪掉，但該檢討的我們會好好檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:38.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:39.132000+08:00","text":"敬表同意，3 個案子就不用再吵了，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:39.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:40.132000+08:00","text":"還有第 18 案、第 23 案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:41.132000+08:00","text":"至於第 18 案及第 23 案，國民黨賴士葆委員所提的減列 3,000 萬跟第 23 案國民黨陳菁徽所\n提的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:41.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:42.132000+08:00","text":"凍結案的部分怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:42.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:43.132000+08:00","text":"5%，請國民黨團表達意見，是不是併第 8 案處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:44.132000+08:00","text":"我跟大家說，這剛好也是在幫勞動部，因為減列是給勞動部一個警惕，也請你們不要\n再浪費，要撙節。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:44.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:45.132000+08:00","text":"第 18 案的部分，提案委員已經跟勞動部這邊……應該可以改為主決議，所以\n第 18 案我覺得可以改為主決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:45.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:46.132000+08:00","text":"但是第 23 案，我認為一樣是要凍結，然後提報告再動支，原\n因很簡單，就是希望再給勞動部一點壓力啦，就是把相關的事情報告清楚，前面是減列，減列\n是一種警惕嘛，後面凍結要你報告也是一種警惕。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:46.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:47.132000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部及勞動部，麻煩聽一下，現在就是第 18 案改為主決議，大家有沒有意見？同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:47.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:48.132000+08:00","text":"好，沒有意見，第 18 案改主決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:48.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:49.132000+08:00","text":"第 23 案是凍結 5%、提書面報告，請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:49.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:50.132000+08:00","text":"敬表同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:50.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:51.132000+08:00","text":"部長要說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:51.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:52.132000+08:00","text":"我說明一下，因為現在真的已經是年底了，我不知道這個凍結，現在是要凍結 5%嘛\n，但是可不可以在項目上面是改到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:52.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:53.132000+08:00","text":"科目自行調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:53.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:54.132000+08:00","text":"對，自行調整到在一般行政管理計畫下面可以自行調整啦，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:54.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:55.132000+08:00","text":"因為我們的「秘\n書業務」確實現在已經使用的差不多了。協 26","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:55.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:56.132000+08:00","text":"可以啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:56.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:57.132000+08:00","text":"好，報告院長，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:57.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:58.132000+08:00","text":"凍結 5%，自行調整，提書面報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:58.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:59.132000+08:00","text":"5%就是 830 萬，就是按照這個一億六千多萬簡單的凍結 830 萬，然後科目到一般行\n政管理下面自行調整，這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:59.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:00.132000+08:00","text":"OK，然後交報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:00.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:01.132000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，洪部長的意思是說，現在年底了，我們就凍結 830 萬，除提書面報告之外，\n就自行在這個科目項下自行調整，可以嗎？可以。可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:02.132000+08:00","text":"好，黨團都接受，第 23 案在一般行政……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:02.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:03.132000+08:00","text":"在一般行政的管理項下，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:03.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:04.132000+08:00","text":"第 23 案就是在一般行政管理計畫項下自行調整，好嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:04.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:05.132000+08:00","text":"各黨團有沒有問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:05.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:06.132000+08:00","text":"好，我們第 23 案這樣處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:06.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:07.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝勞動部洪部長，謝謝您。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:08.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位官員，請微笑離開，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:08.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:09.132000+08:00","text":"接下來請衛福部邱部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:09.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:10.132000+08:00","text":"好久沒看到洪部長的微笑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:10.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:11.132000+08:00","text":"辛苦了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:11.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:12.132000+08:00","text":"洪部長好久笑不出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:12.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:13.132000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，接下來是衛福部，我們現在討論衛生福利特別收入基金，目前國民黨黨團提\n議減列 5%、凍結二十分之九，原列數是 3,250 萬，請提案的國民黨團表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:13.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:14.132000+08:00","text":"我先說明一下好了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:14.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:15.132000+08:00","text":"先讓提案的委員講完，你再說嘛。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:15.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:16.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:16.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:17.132000+08:00","text":"針對衛福特收基金，我們國民黨團的委員所提出來的就是說，有關於食品\n安全保護計畫相關的費用，我們認為因為過去每年大概都只有編列 700 萬的相關業務支出，可\n是在 113 年的時候，我們真的感到很震驚，預算增加了 4.64 倍，也就是增加 464%的規模，變成\n3,250 萬之多，而且很多本黨的委員一直想請基金的主管機關來提出說明，可是你們完全沒有任\n何的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:17.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:18.132000+08:00","text":"我們想知道是為什麼，到底是政策改變還是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:19.132000+08:00","text":"你們到底有做什麼樣的食品安\n全績效的設定，才要提這麼多的預算？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:19.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:20.132000+08:00","text":"我們是希望食安一定要顧好，可是民脂民膏也要顧好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:21.132000+08:00","text":"所以我們提案要減列這個基金用途的預算數 5%，然後另外要凍結 45%的預算數，因為你們過去\n一直以來都沒有提供我們資料，所以我們要限期一個月內向本院提交「113 年度辦理補助經中央\n協 27\n主管機關指定或公開徵選者，用以從事其他有關促進食品安全之相關費用，在預算經費較前一\n年度增漲 464%（即 4.64 倍）規模所預計達成之績效目標與執行計畫」提出專案報告，並經同意\n後，始得動支。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:21.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:22.132000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:22.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:23.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:23.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:24.132000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:24.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:25.132000+08:00","text":"有關這個案子，我想食品安全保護基金的支用當然要用於食安的相關費用，過\n去一年來很多食安的議題，中央、地方大家都要擴大聯手來保護人民的安全，就這個預算案的\n部分，因為我事前也有跟衛福部的同仁在討論，也督促他們要去跟提案委員做說明，上一次第\n一輪是這樣，所以就我所知你們應當有去跟提案委員說明，也獲得提案委員願意做的一些調整\n嘛，好像是可以，提案委員是陳菁徽委員，然後他願意做文字上的一些修正，用改主決議的方\n式處理。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:25.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:26.132000+08:00","text":"這是我追蹤的，我一定會去追蹤每一個部門有沒有去跟提案委員做說明，所以，就我\n的理解是這樣，菁徽委員也同意修正文字改主決議，所以是不是就這樣來處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:26.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:27.132000+08:00","text":"但修正的文字\n可能部長要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:27.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:28.132000+08:00","text":"好，稍微等一下，沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:28.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:29.132000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨團表達意見，黃國昌黃總召，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:29.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:30.132000+08:00","text":"其實我們尊重提案黨團他們自己對這件事情的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:30.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:31.132000+08:00","text":"報告院長及各黨團的委員，這一個預算其實是從 112 年因為我們有增加人力的資源，\n這個全部是發給各縣市政府去好好落實食安，從 112 年就增加人力了，這個人力是各縣市政府在\n用啦，所以重點是這兩個，就是各縣市政府，然後是從 112 年就開始增加人力，是不是我請食藥\n署莊署長簡單再報告一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊署長聲宏","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:31.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:32.132000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊署長聲宏","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:32.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:33.132000+08:00","text":"先跟各位委員報告，這個經費的增加主要是支付地方衛生局處做進\n行促進食品安全相關活動的經費，其中包括了主要有人事、業務和管理費，差異的主要部分是\n因為人事費用，我們今（113）年核可了 43 個人次給 21 個縣市，所以這個經費才會突然比往年\n高，原因是在這裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:33.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:34.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:34.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:35.132000+08:00","text":"跟黨團幹部報告，也跟提案的國民黨黨團報告，現在提案人陳菁徽委員已經同意改為主決議\n，相關資料也已發到各位手上，請問國民黨團有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:35.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:36.132000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，好，我們第 66 案就\n改為主決議，大家沒有意見，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:36.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:37.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱部長及各位列席官員，謝謝，開心笑喔，微笑離開，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:37.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:38.132000+08:00","text":"113 年度運動發展基金，原審查報告第 4 案通過決議免予凍結，改主決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:38.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:39.132000+08:00","text":"現在請各位黨團幹部要仔細聆聽一下，柯建銘總召提出來的，陳玉珍委員，現在柯建銘委員\n有一個提案，請聽一下，不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:39.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:40.132000+08:00","text":"鑑於 113 年度將年度終了，針對 113 年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分，建\n請除院會協商新增之預算凍結案之外，各委員會審查通過之預算凍結案均免予凍結，改為提出\n協 28\n書面報告之後通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:41.132000+08:00","text":"這一點要請教各位黨團幹部，請柯建銘委員說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:41.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:42.132000+08:00","text":"我先說明一下，我們現在是在審查 113 年度的預算，現在已經到年底了，這個預算是\n上屆委員審查後所留下來的所有紀錄，包括凍結數等，但是我們大家在這裡已經重新再協商過\n了，要凍結還是怎麼樣已經有了新的處理方式，所以舊的部分應該可以廢棄，因為那是上一屆\n的了，他們都離開了，所以就把它改為主決議，這是符合實情，並沒有任何偷吃步，就是因為\n這個時間上的落差，那些人都離開了，而且他們之前雖然做了決議，但重點是我們在這裡重新\n處理過了嘛。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:42.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:43.132000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，黨團幹部表達意見，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:44.132000+08:00","text":"請陳玉珍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:44.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:45.132000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個恕難同意啦，因為你說以前的已經過去了，已經都沒有在這裡了，但你們\n對什麼轉型正義，那都多過去的事情了，你們還不是一直在往前追究！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:45.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:46.132000+08:00","text":"我們立法機構是一直承\n續下來，尤其您是資深的立委，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:46.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:47.132000+08:00","text":"你還在這裡，我從上一屆到現在也還在這裡，所以當\n然是沒有辦法用通放的方式，那以後所有單位都故意把這個拖到年底，然後就可以用這一招，\n這叫大赦喔！","quality":0.078},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:47.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:48.132000+08:00","text":"這不是轉型正義的問題，叫……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:48.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:49.132000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說不能像……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:49.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:50.132000+08:00","text":"這些都已經重新處理過了，舊的……","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:50.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:51.132000+08:00","text":"你們對轉型正義都這樣做了，以前的都已經發生過很多事情了！","quality":0.192},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:05.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:07.925000+08:00","text":"不同意！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:08.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:08.526000+08:00","text":"不同意！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:08.526000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:28:39.302000+08:00","text":"無法同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:28:39.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:29:42.553000+08:00","text":"好，那我們就不再處理了。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:29:42.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:30:44.819400+08:00","text":"現在作宣告：報告各位黨團幹部，保留的第二輪協商已經處理完畢。","quality":0.259},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:30:44.819400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:31:47.085800+08:00","text":"第二輪協商結果由各委\n員會整理書面後，交各黨團確認後送財政委員會，並由財政委員會彙整，於本日下午 5 點前送\n議事處，以利明天院會進行保留部分之處理，同時的併同處理。","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:31:47.085800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:32:49.352200+08:00","text":"非常感謝大家今天的出席，也謝謝各位官員，尤其是行政院主計總處……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:32:49.352200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:33:51.618600+08:00","text":"協商結論呢？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:33:51.618600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:34:53.885000+08:00","text":"陳主計長，謝謝你，各位列席官員，我們現在……","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:34:53.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:34:58.108000+08:00","text":"看一下，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:34:58.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:35:24.387000+08:00","text":"院長，這個協商結論大家要簽嘛，不然明天沒辦法處理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-12-12T14:35:24.387000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:35:50.666000+08:00","text":"……要給你們看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:35:50.666000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:36:16.945000+08:00","text":"不必簽了嗎？今天……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:36:16.945000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:36:43.224000+08:00","text":"要給我們看啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:36:43.224000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:37:09.503000+08:00","text":"他們今天下午 5 點前彙整完給各黨團看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:37:09.503000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:37:35.782000+08:00","text":"不必再簽嗎？協 29","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-12T14:37:35.782000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:38:02.061000+08:00","text":"還是現在看一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:38:02.061000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:38:28.340000+08:00","text":"OK，好……\n那有關於證交稅以及地方稅法通則那一部分，協商結論都還沒簽啊。","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:38:28.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:38:54.619000+08:00","text":"那明天要處理前要先處理啊，因為這個證交稅明天要處理啊，那議程大家共同來變更\n，把該處理的處理嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-12-12T14:38:54.619000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:39:20.898000+08:00","text":"那照議事程序處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:39:20.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-12T14:39:47.177000+08:00","text":"好，那我特別謝謝陳主計長，從早上坐到現在，也謝謝教育部鄭部長，謝謝列席官員。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:39:47.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:49:00.697000+08:00","text":"我們現在散會。謝謝。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-12T14:52:51.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-12T14:52:51.259000+08:00","text":"散會（12 時 5 分）","quality":0.5}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}