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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":281.284,"end":281.344,"text":"等21人擬具"},{"start":782.571,"end":784.292,"text":"MING PAO CANADA 字幕志愿者"},{"start":1925.784,"end":1949.172,"text":"我們時間已經到了我們現在開始協商會議協商進行前我們先介紹告常委員還有機關代表我們首先介紹鍾嘉賓召委黃國昌委員接著我們介紹機關代表法務部政次黃政次廉政署署長馮署長"},{"start":1951.568,"end":1955.811,"text":"司法行政高廳長以下我們就不再逐一介紹軍列錄公報記錄我們現在開始進行協商今日協商司法及法制委員會報告併案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案等7案"},{"start":1979.75,"end":2001.926,"text":"本案審查會於113年11月7日審查完略審查結果主委員林月琴等17人提案第8條照案通過第11條照本席等19人提案通過外法名稱其與提案條文及本席所提修正動議均保留送院處理並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商"},{"start":2007.227,"end":2027.781,"text":"寫上時請參閱寫上條文對照表及審查報告與會委員如有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論現在補充介紹鍾瑞雄委員現在先請出席的黨團代表表示意見黃委員"},{"start":2038.464,"end":2057.029,"text":"那個我們現在是不是就直接從名稱開始一條一條往下走那如果是這樣子的話我建議啦就名稱的部分是不是就採公益揭弊者保護法除了揭弊者保護以外也在法案的名稱上彰顯所謂的公益的目的以上好 請問就法案名稱部分有其他意見"},{"start":2071.661,"end":2098.882,"text":"主席我想這個剛剛我對於法案的名稱的意見我是覺得目前的幾個版本都OK那現在我們現在是用逐條的方式還是協商的時候呢依據我們委員會審查的內容先做大體的交換意見好不好因為我們協商你現在說委員會的部分先逐條也是先大體再逐條好不好好那黃委員"},{"start":2101.036,"end":2129.393,"text":"第一個其實我覺得大家自己每一個黨團每一位立法委員我們大家心裡都有數公益揭弊者保護這件事情在我國談了非常非常久真的非常非常久我也知道我們有的時候在做一些國際宣傳的時候去彰顯台灣民主法治的價值我覺得這都非常的正面"},{"start":2130.868,"end":2158.524,"text":"那法務部為了要去處理去慶祝吧或者是說為了要去彰顯我們在這方面的努力然後12月9號也辦了什麼金紙獎嘛12月10號也有那剛好辦這些活動雖然我們是在野黨相關的一些活動我們也都沒受邀連知道都不知道那也沒有關係啦"},{"start":2160.051,"end":2186.045,"text":"因為禮拜天的時候我剛好有機會跟國際透明組織的主席我們因為之前我有跟台灣國際透明組織的有合作那在學者的介紹下我也跟國際透明組織的主席禮拜天的時候就交換了意見他也覺得很詫異說公益揭弊者保護"},{"start":2187.655,"end":2211.388,"text":"這在有關於國際反貪腐也好或者是國際透明組織大家共同的信念OECD會員國的要求這都已經是根深蒂固根深蒂固的概念那怎麼會在台灣拖延了這麼久有各式各樣的理由"},{"start":2212.421,"end":2237.404,"text":"有各式各樣在背後的力量但是從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我必須要再重申這個是我們選前就已經做出了莊嚴的承諾那針對這件事情我們在11月的時候再度在我們的重大政策的民調當中把這題放進去支持的比例我必須要說是嚇死人的高嚇死人的高"},{"start":2238.507,"end":2265.285,"text":"那現在大家可能在意的事情是說公部門把他納入吹哨者保護按照上一次委員會討論我覺得大部分的人就這件事情應該是有共識不用再講那私部門的部分有委員說有擔心說中小企業會受影響那當然在這個基礎上面私部門的範圍我必須要說啦"},{"start":2267.537,"end":2295.152,"text":"不管是私改國事會議的結論還是聯合國反貪腐公約下面的要求甚至我們找國際的學者專家到台灣來針對我們國家報告進行審查那個意見是很一致的私部門本來就應該要同時納入保護的範圍當中這個是很清楚的事情開了這麼多會白紙黑字的記錄全部都在這裡"},{"start":2296.55,"end":2322.466,"text":"那如果說大家要去考慮到說那台灣有很多中小企業那在中小企業的部分施行衝擊會不會太大我先講我自己個人的信念跟價值立場我們現在針對有關的吹哨者的保護事實上是擅見在很多特定的法規當中食品安全衛生"},{"start":2327.321,"end":2343.83,"text":"公務法等這些都有在那些規範的脈絡裡面大家其實仔細去看根本就沒有在區分說要把私部門或是中小企業排除在外所以在理念上我們還是認為所有私部門要把它納入規範的範圍但是在現實上"},{"start":2354.212,"end":2382.592,"text":"在現實上如果把私部門全部納入規範的範圍會引發在整個議事程序上面很多的阻礙很多的不順利那我們台灣民眾黨黨團是有空間我必須要先講是有空間針對私部門納的範圍可以來討論我所謂有空間把私部門納的範圍來討論就是大家如果真的都擔心"},{"start":2383.922,"end":2413.161,"text":"中小企業一下子可能比較難適應或者是說怎麼在法制的教育上法尊的遵循上會產生什麼重大的困難等等等等那我們是有空間可以討論在私部門的部分就把中小企業排除在規範的範圍之外就把中小企業排除在規範的範圍之外但是如果"},{"start":2414.909,"end":2442.497,"text":"排除了中小企業以後包括了上市櫃公司都要排除在外那這樣的立場我們可能就沒有辦法能夠接受那事實上大家有不同的態度跟看法我覺得在台灣這個多元民主的社會當中很正常都沒有關係那就把各自的黨團大家的看法的立場就拿版本出來"},{"start":2443.683,"end":2469.239,"text":"拿單本出來討論那大家看有共識的條文譬如說法案的名稱法案的名稱應該是不會有什麼太大的爭執吧那有共識的部分就先通過那沒有共識牽涉到有關於政策立場的部分我沒有做任何預測譬如說有黨團認為公佈門就好"},{"start":2472.383,"end":2499.13,"text":"那有黨團認為公部門加國營事業就好那我們是認為公部門加上一定規模以上的私人企業都應該要納入整個揭弊者保護法的範疇各自有立場各自有版本那就每一個黨團為自己的版本跟立場負責任因為我覺得這個事情真的拖了太久了"},{"start":2500.689,"end":2526.724,"text":"2019年的時候我老實講行政院提出了院版委員會也完成了審查甚至那個時候在召委段宜康召集協商我們也進行了黨團協商那個時候在2019年到最後一步黨團委員會裡面的黨團協商的時候事實上保留的條文已經沒有幾條了啦保留的條文已經沒有幾條"},{"start":2527.935,"end":2552.522,"text":"因為我特地去拿2019年那時候協商會議的紀錄我把它調出來看那之前我也有請求秘書長以後這些協商會議的紀錄可以上網就盡量上網因為這都是公開的資訊嘛這又不是幾個人躲在小房間裡面去搞出來的東西這個都是公開的資訊讓大家看嘛看2019年我們討論到什麼地方卡住哪裡重大的歧異在"},{"start":2553.717,"end":2568.66,"text":"在什麼重大的起義到底在什麼地方那我們新的這一屆的國會在這個基礎上面那當然你要改變你的看法也沒有關係你可以提新的理由改變你的看法"},{"start":2569.332,"end":2593.361,"text":"但我覺得最重要的事情是說這部法案一定要往前走這部法案一定要往前走不能繼續留在原地踏步因為我本來是想說其實上一次在委員會討論的時候有很多委員有各式各樣的高見我們一路從早上討論到下午我如果沒記錯的話從早上9點開始開會進入主條討論到下午5點"},{"start":2598.26,"end":2611.92,"text":"大家不同的看法、不同的觀點其實都已經呈現出來了有不一樣的價值選擇有不一樣的取進那這個都沒有關係但你總要繼續往前走吧"},{"start":2612.574,"end":2638.314,"text":"那如果今天黨團協商我們還是又回復到那一天那樣的狀態的話那老實說沒有任何推進實際上面的效果那今天大家坐在這邊進行這樣的黨團協商如果啦就是沒有要做針對這個事情大家就從條文或者是名稱就一步一步走下去的話"},{"start":2640.195,"end":2647.02,"text":"重新回到那時候委員會討論的狀態我就不知道說這樣到底有什麼太多積極的意義那莊委員謝謝召委還有在場的委員、列席的官員我看這樣子這部法令我們也討論很久了其實大家把不同的意見都有一個表達"},{"start":2666.246,"end":2689.908,"text":"各個黨團的意見其實大家都很清楚那整個上次我們在談的時候公部門先行這個部分我相信大家也都有共識啦那至於黃國昌委員剛剛提到說各個政黨把他自己的版本拿出來這個我都非常同意啦我也都非常同意啦我相信從整個揭弊者保護法草案"},{"start":2690.973,"end":2698.012,"text":"我們從以前不管是從大理討論或主條討論我所提出來的意見都不是反對的立場"},{"start":2699.246,"end":2728.04,"text":"我提的就是說這部法律怎麼樣讓它更精緻然後在法尊的部分衝擊到整個中小企業的部分我們立法院如何來做一個安排跟處理考量的都是這一些啦倒也不是說黃委員的哪一個條文我反對或誰的條文哪一個條文都不是我每一條我都有說理都有說理那一到現在走到現在來的話上次我們提的事都是保留送院會嘛那既然黃委員這樣提啦"},{"start":2728.86,"end":2751.277,"text":"我是覺得也很合理我是覺得就算我也是先在這邊跟法務部講啦就算你們不提出版本喔如果你們不提那我就要來提囉你像比如說我很在意的你那個惡意的揭弊的部分那個確實那個部分應該是更完整的一個做一個規範"},{"start":2752.728,"end":2777.903,"text":"因為有共識了嘛 要走了嘛至少你公益的部分看起來這部分都沒有爭議了嘛那是不是我建議啦 也不用吃雞都剝肉啦就讓 給個時間 看法務部提你不提 我就很抱歉啦 我就自己要來提案啦因為畢竟談到現在 公益的部分 這公部門先行的部分大家已經有共識了 以上總召委"},{"start":2785.765,"end":2807.263,"text":"我想揭弊者不管是公益揭弊還是揭弊名稱為何其實各黨團對於社會共同的呼籲誠如剛剛幾位委員所發言的不管黨團就算是有在條文上設計的差異大家的目標是一致的很多的價值高唱露雲其實到終究我們還是回歸到條文要怎麼樣去規劃"},{"start":2808.544,"end":2830.303,"text":"因為正義可以很素樸的提出它的價值跟方向但是法條的設計上一定要能周延的呼應到每個執行面上能夠顧及到當時這個素樸正義所要堅持的結果所以法律就是透過這樣的一個制定的過程讓目標可以透過程序落實到所要達到的結果那我們來看一下"},{"start":2831.084,"end":2843.428,"text":"回顧這次我們在委員會也是目前吳釗偉所主持的情況之下我們看到的有7個版本包括台灣民眾黨的版本以及包括國民黨黨員國民黨黨團成員有6個版本"},{"start":2847.91,"end":2867.712,"text":"那這七個版本我們討論之後我幫大家回顧一下今天我們的黨團協商我們通過了兩個條文其中是第八條林月琴案的第八條這裡面包括民進黨林月琴的委員也有一個第八條以及國民黨的吳釗偉的第十一條"},{"start":2868.68,"end":2882.752,"text":"那全部的條文呢 一共有17條大概各版本的條次差不多大概有到17條左右那麼有的比較長的 有的到24條那大概17條、18條、19條但是這就算是19條好了啦以我們這個吳昭偉的版本 這19條的版本呢目前我們通過了兩個條次"},{"start":2891.699,"end":2913.164,"text":"包括名稱的部分都是說保留送院會處理不過我這裡特別要提出來因為上次在委員會我們也非常的認真的討論那麼各黨團的成員都踴躍的就各個版本的內容來做一些發言倒是這裡面我們看到幾個包括吳釗緯所提的關於第一條的修正動議"},{"start":2914.224,"end":2929.447,"text":"那為什麼在大體討論的時候去呼應剛剛幾位委員的發言呢因為這個修正動議就是我們上次委員會大家討論後似乎要謀求一個凝聚共識的結果"},{"start":2930.568,"end":2958.242,"text":"縱使後來仍然是做成保留送院會處理但是我們來看一下我現在還是做大體的討論我沒有說是主條我們看到那幾個修正動議的被拿出來做討論第一個是吳昭偉所提出來的第一條那這裡面呢很開宗明義的在第一條的第一項當中就寫了公部門及國營事業那這一個修正動議很清楚的將其他的七個版本其他的七個版本呢做一個"},{"start":2959.491,"end":2976.3,"text":"全面性的修正那這個修正動議我相信是相較於我今天討論的七個版本往前邁了一步是不是大家要討論就是在以公部門及國營事業但是為什麼會保留呢就是國營事業的定義啦"},{"start":2977.476,"end":2988.968,"text":"其實呢 這個修正動議跟其他七個版本的最大不同就是其他七個版本都是公部門及私部門政府機關、公司及商業之內部那大概意識上都是公跟私"},{"start":2991.241,"end":3006.092,"text":"吳兆偉所提的修正動議他把公的部分保留了但是其他的部分他把它擴及到國營事業他並不是到私部門就是公部門再往前踏了一步是國營事業但是國營事業的範疇在委員會討論的時候就開始產生一個範圍上的討論這是第一個我是建議我們從大體討論來看一看上次修正動議的內容"},{"start":3014.827,"end":3040.524,"text":"那第二個修正動議呢也是吳釗偉所提出來是第七條那第七條當時呢就是指對於揭弊者保護的這些防止對他不利的一些措施那我相信大家如果看一下我們目前會診版的第十七頁十六頁十七頁這些內容大概也是針對其他的七個版本做一個比較完整的一個柔和但是呢一樣"},{"start":3041.89,"end":3064.956,"text":"這個修正動議在討論到其他版本是第7條的時候仍然是保留我是覺得這個部分我覺得可以在這個基礎之上成如剛剛黃總召所說的我們希望能夠往前推進可以先從修正動議的部分來看一看當時透過修正動議總要彙整凝聚整合的這些條文內容上我們可不可以把它往前推進"},{"start":3065.896,"end":3080.708,"text":"那我還再強調一次今天未必我們的黨團協商可以將全部的18、9個條文全部的能夠有一個完一致的共識但是如果我們那其中的幾個條文能夠往前推進"},{"start":3082.009,"end":3098.799,"text":"有些共識,未來在處理的時候,我想我們也幫院會在處理本案的時候做一個努力接下來我們再看第三個修正動議,那麼就是第10條,也是吳釗偉所提的修正動議這當中是指對於違反揭弊者保護的一些處罰,那是針對"},{"start":3103.476,"end":3114.912,"text":"公務人員、位居公務人員那這裡面呢一樣為什麼當時在這個修正動議儘管做了整合但是仍然沒有獲得一致的共識就是裡面提到國營事業的部分"},{"start":3120.241,"end":3140.39,"text":"吳釗偉提出三個修正動議我是建議黨團協商可以就這三個修正動議所要努力去整合的部分我在這裡談一個大體討論的思考在上次委員會的審查當中其實大家談到不管叫做揭弊者或者公益揭弊我們其中一個考慮就是惡意揭弊的部分"},{"start":3141.21,"end":3163.345,"text":"二億揭弊的部分我們在黨團協商的我們第15條文當中對於二億揭弊不納入保護這個部分其實大家是有所琢磨但是是不是已經足夠還有包括不受保護後的這些裁罰也就是說二億揭弊是我們在推動揭弊者"},{"start":3164.383,"end":3193.789,"text":"保護法當中很重要的區別既然我們要保護揭弊者而且是基於公益的理由跟他保護那麼相對的惡意揭弊是不保護的那惡意揭弊的不保護我們規定分別出在我們協商條文的第15條跟第16條包括不保護的範圍不保護之後對於惡意揭弊者的裁罰如何的去予以具體的規範我想這是我們在委員會當時有稍微觸及但是似乎沒有辦法有一個共識的地方"},{"start":3194.269,"end":3213,"text":"那以上是建議在黨團協商的時候在大體討論的部分建議先就上次吳釗緯所提的三個修正動議以及我剛剛所提出來的兩點包括15條、16條惡意揭弊的第二層的處罰以及不受保護的裁罰的這個部分我們來進行意見交換以上建議黃委員第一個對各個委員所提出來的修正動議我們都尊重"},{"start":3223.188,"end":3252.069,"text":"但沒有道理以特定委員的修正動議來當作討論的範圍我必須要先說清楚上一次召委基於善意提出了你的修正動議台灣民眾黨黨團我們尊重召委提出修正動議的權利它只是其中討論的一個版本我沒有辦法理解為什麼如果大家有所推進的話那就就實質的條文來處理嘛"},{"start":3253.407,"end":3272.758,"text":"那為什麼要以特定的修正動議來當作討論最優先的事項或者是範圍其實我們打開天窗說亮話就三個不同的立場一個只有公部門一個公部門加上國營事業國營事業的定義一點都不困難在國營事業法裡面就有規範一點都不困難"},{"start":3281.091,"end":3308.015,"text":"國營事業法裡面就有規範啊我們就按照既有的規範就把它納入第二種政策選擇的主體範圍那第三個除了公部門國營事業以外一定範圍一定範圍一定範圍的私部門我們認為要把它納入進來那未來的話那些大財團大金控用中小企業當作幌子"},{"start":3309.298,"end":3332.963,"text":"不把他們納入規範的範圍當中這樣子的立場我們沒辦法接受那你三個大的就是這個三個大的不一樣的立場那就各個黨團按照自己所要支持的立場提出版本在條文的部分有共識就有共識沒有共識就沒有共識"},{"start":3334.728,"end":3362.249,"text":"對台灣民眾黨黨團來講我必須要先說明一個清楚的事情是說惡意揭弊的這個事情要怎麼處理要怎麼規範我們沒有特定的立場我們沒有特定的立場我們保持一個開放的態度但是在立法程序的過程當中有一件事情我們一定要說清楚講明白"},{"start":3363.317,"end":3380.634,"text":"因為我絕對不能讓台灣民眾黨黨團背負根本就不存在的惡名什麼叫不讓台灣民眾黨黨團背負根本就不存在的惡名我先從惡意揭弊這件事情來講去年在選舉的時候"},{"start":3384.588,"end":3406.912,"text":"就有側翼在攻擊台灣民眾黨黨團說什麼說所有的版本裡面有追究惡意揭弊的懲罰惡意揭弊納入提案的就是只有民眾黨的立院黨團指的是上一屆國會上一屆的國會民眾黨黨團的提案民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3411.226,"end":3437.134,"text":"他們棄於考慮說要把惡意揭弊要把它放進去結果竟然成為在選舉的時候攻擊民眾黨黨團的素材這個都有公開的資訊當初揭露的是什麼當初揭露的事情是有一個大集團叫做永豐集團在找什麼政治公關的時候強烈要求在揭弊者保護法納入懲罰惡意揭弊者條款"},{"start":3438.752,"end":3458.625,"text":"這不是我說的這個是去年提出來對台灣民眾黨黨團的攻擊那當然那是上一屆的國會我也相信上一屆台灣民眾黨黨團的立場怎麼可能會因為這些大裁團或大監控因為他們所以才要把惡意揭弊把它納入規範的範圍這個事情說清楚講明白"},{"start":3464.298,"end":3476.907,"text":"第二個回到今天我們所要處理的事情上面回到今天要處理的事情上面是說所謂的大體討論上一次委員會大體討論的還不夠嗎還是說一定要限在特定的範圍當中才願意繼續走下去否則不願意繼續走下去大體討論不外乎就我剛講的那三種規範模式嘛"},{"start":3491.718,"end":3507.602,"text":"只有政府機關第一種第二種政府機關加國營事業第三種政府機關加國營事業加入一定規模以上的私部門大概就這三種不一樣的不一樣的狀態那不一樣的狀態其實從上一次委員會的發言好幾個小時耶所有條文幾乎啦全部被保留"},{"start":3519.215,"end":3544.031,"text":"都是為了這個基本立場上面都不一樣那我們所謂的大體討論上一次在委員會討論的時候從早上9點到下午4、5點還不夠清楚嗎大家基本上的立場是什麼想法是什麼我相信都講得很透徹了啦那第二個部分我也感謝莊惠雄委員"},{"start":3545.582,"end":3569.713,"text":"莊委員今天也表達一定的善意出來說那我們就繼續往下走然後他剛說他要去提那個惡意揭弊的條款這個我都尊重每個黨團本來就有提案提修正動議的什麼提修正動議的權利嘛這個我們都尊重那但是我是希望啊如果這個協商要有任何意義的話就不要繼續"},{"start":3571.584,"end":3600.661,"text":"在基本立場的事情上面空轉因為看起來就不會有共識嘛看起來就不會有共識我為什麼說看起來就不會有共識第一個我先講第一個台灣民眾黨黨團我們不會接受我們不會接受只有公部門加國營企業我們一定會納入一定規模以上"},{"start":3602.005,"end":3602.345,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團不會支持"},{"start":3625.455,"end":3651.676,"text":"不會支持因為這個不是黨團少數的幾個人的看法那個是支持這項改革非常多的朋友以及我們的支持者大家共同的看法那在這件事情上面我們作為民意代表就是反映民意反映把選票投給我們送我們到立法院來的人他們希望所達成的改革目標那最後一個事情"},{"start":3653.442,"end":3678.433,"text":"行政部門隨時要提修正動議出來我們都歡迎但請容我這樣講本院沒有必要也不應該再等行政部門要提修正動議隨時歡迎今天要提明天要提後天要提隨時要提我們都歡迎但是沒有任何的道理等行政部門等得夠久了吧等得夠久了吧"},{"start":3682.895,"end":3701.908,"text":"整個立法院的程序會因為你行政部門抗拒不提出你們的版本大家就一直等嗎等得夠久了啦你不要說從2017年斯卡國事會議做了承諾到今天開始算了你急於是以新的國會3月第一次在總執行的時候問當時的行政院院長就說在演議嘛"},{"start":3711.437,"end":3719.383,"text":"新的行政院院長也在研議嗎?還要研議多久?繼續研議下去嗎?研議到2028年嗎?台灣公民社會等的已經夠久了所以我還是具體的建議"},{"start":3729.639,"end":3753.877,"text":"大體的看法各位黨團表示他們的立場台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我剛已經清楚表達我也沒有要強迫其他的黨團一定要接受我們的立場我也不會主張所以你不採取我的立場大家就不要往下走每一個黨團每一個立委有他自己的看法我們都尊重就按照民主程序下去"},{"start":3754.841,"end":3766.566,"text":"那還是說這個基本的立場沒有辦法收容有個基本的共識不要往下走今天會議要這樣進行嗎看等一下請主席查一事我都尊重"},{"start":3769.167,"end":3793.782,"text":"我先表示一下意見就是說當然是我先謝謝那個中召委還要拿以我的修正動議的版本出來討論但是因為我們現在其實有三個不同的版本嘛對不對我說主要以主要來說有三個不同就剛剛黃委員有提到的"},{"start":3795.797,"end":3813.635,"text":"公司部門或是像我提的公部門加國營企業或是說像那個台灣民眾黨希望的是公部門加國營企業再加部分的私部門那現在至少就有這三個"},{"start":3814.616,"end":3838.951,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":3845.285,"end":3865.075,"text":"那這樣子的話變成說因為照之前的做法是如果有黨團沒有出來的話變成說協商就不成立對就沒辦法協商沒有關係啊那就會議紀錄嘛就協商不成立嘛我們接下來就按照議事規則處理啊對"},{"start":3870.857,"end":3893.295,"text":"那這樣齁 那我請問一下各位委員那我們需不需要讓法務部說明一下因為剛剛中委員有說請法務部要提沒有 我沒有說請法務部說明一下沒有沒有 中委員 中委員那有說看是不是法務部要提那我們就請法務部3分鐘講一下好不好好 那麻煩法務部好 我們請那個聯合組這邊說明一下目前的願版的進度好了齁"},{"start":3896.246,"end":3908.73,"text":"主席委員,謝謝各位對《揭弊者保護法》的關切本署在《揭弊者保護法草案》中,目前總共召開過12次審查會本署也提了總共15項草案"},{"start":3913.372,"end":3937.492,"text":"但是因為每次在立法這個政策上面都會因為當時的一個需求然後再必須要兼顧不同的意見所以說目前就是行政院這邊的一個情況是認為說採取公私分流跟公部門先行的一個立法策略但是整個版本上還在行政院做一個研議那我們上一次在開完我們的一個這個"},{"start":3938.813,"end":3938.973,"text":"黃偉業第一個"},{"start":3969.082,"end":3993.301,"text":"行政院永遠都在演繹中啊上一次委員會的時候你們的態度講得很清楚了今天完全不出大家所料我們的行政院持續在演繹當中嗎這個是第一件事情第二個立法政策上面立場的事情我上次在委員會裡面我已經有點過了現在就可以把話講得更白了"},{"start":3995.254,"end":4017.104,"text":"當然是有政策上面的問題要不然2017年全國司改會議是開假的當然是有政策選擇的問題嘛要不然2017年司改國事會議是開假的司改國事會議都做決議啦但沒有關係啊也讓大家清楚的知道執政黨的立場"},{"start":4018.419,"end":4028.183,"text":"斯卡國際會議的決議也不是鐵律啦反正就是一個大敗敗的會議嘛參考的性質嘛隨著情勢的變遷嘛隨著情勢的改變嘛隨著執政者態度的改變嘛隨時都可以變動吹哨者保護法就是一個最清楚最具體的例子最清楚最具體的例子"},{"start":4047.23,"end":4075.92,"text":"那第三個部分既然行政院要研議啊就讓行政院繼續研議下去啊你們就慢慢的研議啊不斷的研議啊持續的研議啊但是台灣民眾黨黨團主張啊在立法院裡面的立法程序啊沒有必要因為行政院的研議啊而有任何的遲緩因為你們研議的夠久啦兩千多天啊兩千多天啊"},{"start":4082.955,"end":4096.76,"text":"沒錯清楚的看出來今天這個黨團協商民眾黨黨團出席了民進黨黨團出席了行政部門應邀列席來做說明也到了"},{"start":4098.103,"end":4120.103,"text":"哪一個黨團沒有派代表來我不曉得昭偉是不是代表國民黨黨團我剛剛很客氣的用昭偉所提出的修正動議希望以昭偉提出的修正動議某個程度上能促進三個黨團在不同版本之間的差別意見但是至於有人口口聲聲都說當年的司改會議如何如何如今應如何如何所以要說明一點"},{"start":4121.448,"end":4137.64,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團在上一屆所提的法案民眾黨團本身的立場如何我不是很清楚因為民眾黨黨團的立場我也經常捉摸不定包括現在黃總召所發言的立場"},{"start":4138.991,"end":4162.326,"text":"也經常在隨著時事在改變如果要說司改會議的決議有這樣的拘束力那我們也可以問當年的年金改革開了20多場的全國性的座談會凝聚的共識現在也是由黨團要來翻案也要將逐年下調的所得替代率要將它停止試用"},{"start":4163.248,"end":4181.483,"text":"所以一句老話套句剛剛所發言的此一時彼一時隨著時事的變遷任何黨團都可以拿今日之我來反對昨日之我誠如我們之前也不過上會期類似的黨團協商就在相關的立職法所謂的擴權法案當中"},{"start":4182.083,"end":4201.216,"text":"也有人口口聲聲拿著民進黨之前的版本號稱說民進黨之前支持的怎麼現在反對了彷彿現在擴選法案民進黨不同意是因為我們違背了當時我們的堅持跟要求不然呢正是因為過去的所提出的版本如果發現跟時代"},{"start":4202.037,"end":4202.698,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4224.457,"end":4250.163,"text":"原來的七個版本只有兩種條文語句啦就是公部門跟私部門或者是政府機關及公司及商業就這樣兩種版本而已啊一個是公部門私部門一個是政府機關及商業就這樣子啊這也是公司啊兩個是一個是公司部門一個是公跟商業部門一樣的意思其實原來的七個版本都是說公司併進但是"},{"start":4252.984,"end":4272.706,"text":"召委所提出來的修正動議其實是說以公部門為主外擴到國營事業剛剛有提到說國營事業定義有啊國營事業法有寫啊有三個定義啊但是為什麼還是在張禮石委員會上是不能達成共識呢大家還是覺得是不是由公部門來先做還是由黨團堅持一定要公私並進同時來做"},{"start":4274.668,"end":4290.328,"text":"那大家對公私併進大家擔心的並不是對於所謂的大財團這些社會動輒觀瞻的大財團的這些揭弊大家擔心的是以台灣中小企業的體質這麼的多的私部門能否承擔當然大家也提到了剛剛也聽到了對這些私部門"},{"start":4291.414,"end":4306.707,"text":"也擔心過度的擾民對於中小企業把這個揭弊者的這樣的法條設計要他們來承受法尊的成本似乎呢有違我們社會一般的常理所以大家才會在私部門要不要同時公司併進採了一個"},{"start":4309.861,"end":4311.102,"text":"今天不在場的是國民黨黨團國民黨黨團提了五個版本"},{"start":4334.468,"end":4363.808,"text":"提了五個版本啊沒有人到場啊民進黨有一個版本啊民眾黨有一個版本啊我們的版本有些些微的不同我們拿出來討論所以今天如果黨團協商不能達成共識是因為黨團並未全員到齊其實就算是如此我還是要誠懇的建議我們的主席過去有黨團未出席的情況之下如果大家願意交換意見也很好但是如果覺得有黨團缺席我們無法進行推進不可能達成協商的共識那就到此為止我也不反對"},{"start":4364.668,"end":4383.109,"text":"但是今天絕對不是說誰或哪個黨團誰的立場反覆或者說對這樣的一個利益崇高良善的一個目的我們有所保留又質疑迴避或辜負了社會的期待沒有這樣的情況我們希望揭弊者保護法能夠"},{"start":4384.17,"end":4411.392,"text":"能夠穩健地踏出第一步就像當年的國民法官法爭論很多參審製陪審製討論很多但是我們終究踏出了第一步所以我想以國民法官法的推動為例我希望我們是穩健地踏步但是至於說要用過去的所謂的什麼國事會議司法國事會議年金改革國事會議以這樣的一個標準要求大家一起遵行那先看看自己的立場有沒有前後反覆再說"},{"start":4414.464,"end":4429.735,"text":"黃委員那個今天看起來我目前在檯面上面的單本事實上大的政策立場上只有兩種一種就是公司部門都要有一種是公司部門都要有現在目前所提出來的"},{"start":4441.357,"end":4447.459,"text":"1234567我看了目前檯面上的7個版本全部都是公司部門要處理包括了民進黨林月琴等17人提案也是公司部門要處理第二個朝野的修正動議有把它限縮到國營企業這個是第二種版本"},{"start":4467.848,"end":4493.221,"text":"第三種版本如果只要有公部門的話我到目前為止在檯面上面根本沒有看到只有公部門的提案完全沒有看到只有公部門的提案在完全沒有看到有公部門提案之下我們接下來討論的標的只有兩種情況一個是什麼一個是公司部門合併第二個就是召委所提出來的修正版本"},{"start":4500.294,"end":4506.823,"text":"所以今天如果黨團協商沒有辦法繼續下去那就沒有辦法繼續下去嘛我們接下來就按照議事規則來進行"},{"start":4511.474,"end":4534.623,"text":"因為今天有黨團代表沒有出席那我想說也沒有辦法達成共識那即使今天只有民眾黨跟民進黨代表也都有對於一些東西根本就沒有辦法達成共識那我想說對於那個國民黨今天確實是沒有來因為今天到場的兩位都沒有辦法達成共識那國民黨還只是更不會達成共識"},{"start":4536.704,"end":4565.282,"text":"不是啦!不是啦!不是啦!我是說...哎呀!你...那個齁...那個...我覺得每次都...每次都斷章取義別人的意見算了那我就不多說了這種齁...我這真的是...沒有啦!朝野我具體建議啦!沒有啦!沒有關係啦!我知道你很辛苦從委員會審查一直到今天誰想要推進這個法案"},{"start":4566.702,"end":4579.526,"text":"誰不想推進這個法案每一個人都在看大家心裡都有數所有的人關心的人大家都在看大家心裡都有數根本不用多說什麼啦那現實上面就是我們就按照意識規則處理"},{"start":4587.112,"end":4614.233,"text":"我主張要只限於公部門的就請你們趕快把版本拿出來要不然的話超級可笑只有一種抽象的主張說只要公部門那只要公部門的版本在哪裡沒有啊行政部門沒有提執政黨的立委沒有提我們怎麼會討論一個根本就不存在的法案呢完全到目前為止檯面上沒有任何一個版本是只規範公部門的啊"},{"start":4615.205,"end":4618.995,"text":"花了這麼多時間去討論一個根本不存在的提案這要讓國人看一下的話"},{"start":4624.588,"end":4645.647,"text":"有主張只要限規範公佈門的那就拜託趕快把版本提出來那沒有的話我們接下來就按照議事規則走我很尊重昭偉我也知道昭偉你提你的修正動議基本上是希望在現實的情況下法案走得比較順利您提的修正動議中國國民黨黨團的立場我們都尊重"},{"start":4648.618,"end":4676.989,"text":"但台灣民眾黨黨團有台灣民眾黨黨團的政策立場跟我們的堅持因為我看到那個民調的結果我不可能看到這麼高比例的民調將近八成是支持公司部門同時要處理然後我放著這個民調的結果裝作沒有看到用各式各樣的理由要去幫一些財團開脫我打開天窗塑料化這件事情絕對不可能"},{"start":4678.203,"end":4706.702,"text":"我到院會表決書都沒有關係啊在院會表決留下記錄嘛每一個黨團為他自己所提出來的版本負責任那行政部門提不出任何的版本這個也不是什麼奇怪的事情啊常常很多重要的、關鍵的法案我們的行政部門卻於提出他們的版本表達自己的政策立場揭弊者保護法也不是第一個啊"},{"start":4708.089,"end":4722.265,"text":"之前跳票的集合法也沒提出來啊兩岸協議監督條例也沒提出來啊所在多有啊那行政部門反正都是尊重本院的審議嘛那尊重本院的審議就既有的版本拿出來按照議事規則處理以上"},{"start":4727.697,"end":4741.303,"text":"謝謝黃委員因為我立場是這樣就是說其實中國國民黨有提出五個版本嘛那我自己當初也是希望是公司部門都包含在內那當然後來我是希望蠻希望說這"},{"start":4743.384,"end":4763.797,"text":"這個揭弊者保護法能夠趕快的過關所以我在範圍的部分我自己有稍微限縮一點但是我有提了一個附帶決議就是即使我有限縮但是我也要求三年的時間後要把它加進去所以我覺得每個人都有每個人立場那我們都是彼此尊重大家對於法律的見解提出"},{"start":4766.178,"end":4792.368,"text":"其實大家也都看得出來啦其實以國民黨立場或是民眾黨立場都非常希望這個法案能夠趕快過即使我們對於這個範圍的部分也許大家有不同的意見但這個都可以在日後的比如朝野協商什麼他們都可以達成一個共識那我們也會對於最後出來的那共識予以尊重這也是我的立場但如果說最後大家的決議認為說公司全部包進去那我也是接受啊"},{"start":4792.748,"end":4812.899,"text":"我想說就是每個人提出自己的想法但是我的想法就是的主軸還是希望這個法案能夠趕快過關我想說跟大家的想法是一樣的那因為民進黨他一直沒有提出一個東西出來他一直講一些理念所以我們也不可能再等下去啦因為好像林委員那個話有撤調是不是"},{"start":4816.531,"end":4837.049,"text":"那個我要說明一下林委員撤掉那個我們已經提出覆議了那我必須要清楚的說明啊原則上各個委員提的版本他要撤我每意見但這個情況不一樣我們在司法法制委員會認真討論每一個條文包括他的版本在裡面"},{"start":4839.91,"end":4858.611,"text":"甚至通過了他的版本對 有一條是通過還是民進黨黨團認為要接受他的版本司法法制委員會都已經審議完了還通過了那個條文然後才說他要把他的法案撤回那我們那天在司法法制委員會那麼認真在審法案的立委大家都是什麼 吃飽太閒喔"},{"start":4860.683,"end":4889.146,"text":"所以台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚啊我們是不同意他把那個給撤回啦他那個把撤回了那我們在社會法制委員會好不容易過的那個條文所花的時間全部都周恩發掉了沒有道理啊讓他沒有道理去容認啦這樣浪費大家時間的行為那因為這樣齁就是因為剛剛鍾釗緯講那個也不是啦因為我不是說把今天"},{"start":4890.981,"end":4891.221,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4915.235,"end":4942.541,"text":"兩個政黨我沒有那個話我覺得每次講話都被斷章取義我也不是很喜歡這樣那我想說不管如何今天我們的協商確實事實就是因為有黨團代表沒有出席所以沒有辦法達成共識所以我們後續還是依照以往我們的做法我們就依據立法院職權刑事法第12章的規定辦理我想說我們就這樣子處理了那請問黃委員還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":4944.164,"end":4958.259,"text":"同意就按照議事規則處理好謝謝黃委員這樣的話我們今天的協商就沒有成立後續我們就依據資源刑事法第12章的規定辦理那就謝謝各位現在就散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}