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下午公布具有8案、3案成立、5案不成立共7人受到行政處分本部於第11屆第1會期多層大院協助對本部重要業務之推展有甚大注意在此前表謝神未來推動政策上期大院鼎益之處已應"},{"start":2584.028,"end":2587.17,"text":"已應本部業務需要。謝謝以上。"},{"start":2601.324,"end":2624.546,"text":"現在我們開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘,列席委員4分鐘,10點半截止法院登記委員如果有書面執行請於上位前提出,預期不受理暫定10點半左右休息10分鐘,延遲上11點半處理臨時提案,11點截止手案"},{"start":2628.462,"end":2631.504,"text":"好,現在我們請登記第一位委員陳昭之發言。好,有請邱部長。好,部長請。好,部長早。部長,上週屢次召開的這個霸凌案調查記者會,你有什麼感想?我們"},{"start":2657.304,"end":2661.643,"text":"當然有嚴肅的心情來面對所有相關的事件那我們也要求"},{"start":2662.338,"end":2686.671,"text":"一定一切要秉公處理,依法辦理,然後我們也成立了調查的...部長,我是問的是你的感想,你在想說你們會有一些原則。上週的記者會我只有8個字給部長,關關相互,避重就輕。勞動部第一次的調查報告,何部長還說是呕心瀝血的報告,引發中怒。"},{"start":2687.671,"end":2711.162,"text":"然後部長你也不遑多讓說這是用心高規格的調查那我們就來看一下有多用心有多高規格啊好部長你們衛福部總共調查了8個案子上週的記者會就丟出一張A4的新聞稿請問這張新聞稿是等於調查報告嗎是嗎部長請你回答是不是等於調查報告應該是調查的結論"},{"start":2716.049,"end":2730.941,"text":"那不是調查報告那為什麼不公開完整的調查報告呢?勞動部無論是第一次的調查或第二次重啟調查的記者會他都當下立即把調查報告傳上網公開給社會大眾看啊威福部為什麼不敢公開呢?請回答因為我們"},{"start":2737.315,"end":2746.978,"text":"我們這次的調查是非常深度跟廣度也尊重外部專家的一個非常專業的一個來評判為什麼不能公開那因為他其實我們在訪談當中牽涉到非常多的同仁"},{"start":2760.521,"end":2777.916,"text":"那這些同仁我們必須要做自閉化該蓋黑的就塗黑嘛這個你要報查報告還是要出來你現在是不是可以立刻請業務單位把調查報告上網做得到嗎勞動部都做到了你做不到嗎我現在給你時間馬上交代我要上網去看報告可以嗎請調查小組的召集人李次長"},{"start":2782.6,"end":2801.733,"text":"為什麼我要報告就好 我不要你怎麼做的 我要調查報告主席也非常感謝委員的這個關心 那我跟委員做一個簡單報告 因為其實我們這個部分確實有96位同仁他受到訪談 那麼在訪談的過程裡面這些有講到就不用了 基本上他們都基本上還是希望不具名 因為這裡面會稱到就是說不具名沒問題啊 不具名沒問題啊"},{"start":2804.815,"end":2812.317,"text":"可是這裡面因為有一些同仁他們還是希望就是說可能可能有一些那你就是還沒有做好嘛那個報告還不確實嘛我們其實都已經做好那麼這裡面我們還是要考量同仁他們的這個隱私還有你可以把identity蓋好那其實我們也透過這次的這一個詳細的審查"},{"start":2823.4,"end":2825.522,"text":"市長請回市長請回我等一下執行委員回去我就要看啊我要看調查報告啊你乾脆就處理啊勞動部做得到你做不到啊"},{"start":2847.54,"end":2848.3,"text":"主席是李任德次長"},{"start":2871.277,"end":2887.082,"text":"不是啊,有衛福部官員跟我說啊,因為劉益娟主秘是防護小組的主席,本次是因為迴避啊,暫時由次長代替,但是劉益娟現在還是主秘啊,那之後她是不是可以看調閱報告?她可不可以知道是約談了哪些人?這些被約談的人講了什麼話?部長請告訴我,她可不可以看得到?"},{"start":2891.155,"end":2894.66,"text":"我想我們這次的調查報告是人事處長能不能看得到這些內容告訴我就好這些調查報告目前都是密切目前?但是他回到不會不會不會"},{"start":2907.596,"end":2922.102,"text":"因為安全防護小組現在的召集人自從自從主秘我們原來的主秘是那個召集人可是他列入列案之後就是我們立即換成我們的政府組長"},{"start":2925.584,"end":2951.542,"text":"不會不會因為相關的關係人都不會看到報告你要告訴我說這個報告我不知道多久他暫時看不到我只理解你他暫時看不到部長你知道部內的員工現在很害怕嘛怕被劉奕娟秋後算帳你覺得在這種氛圍之下衛福部有辦法做出符合事實的調查嗎只要劉奕娟一天在主命的位子上就沒有人敢說真話今天劉奕娟有來嗎"},{"start":2953.186,"end":2967.366,"text":"沒有啊,因為你把他免監的那個社保司啊他是完成順利的升官啊他免監社保司啊他除掉的工作負荷啊但是他還是可以監督社保司啊你讓他成功的升官還在主命的位置上啊"},{"start":2968.581,"end":2990.432,"text":"讓他繼續不受監督,他不用來這裡了啊。為什麼不當一人之下、萬人之下,繼續作威作福?社保司的工作是非常重要,而且牽涉到整個我們賢敏健保相關法案的一個法案是一個非常重要的一個工作。沒有人才了嗎?不要騙我啦,人才很多啦,不差他一個。上次子群被我叫上來還裝無辜,那他跟錄音檔裡面叫人家去自殺。"},{"start":2994.534,"end":2996.235,"text":"喔 那個語氣是真是天壤之別阿 不然你有聽到沒有?你有聽到沒有?"},{"start":2996.235,"end":2999.556,"text":"那錄音帶你有聽到沒有?部長這種人你確定要繼續保他官位嗎?你確定要繼續保他官位嗎?阿不是已經多少週了嗎?你現在還在跟我講 原來你還沒有做完你就把調查報告送出來阿和部長之前也很嘴硬阿 結果下午就辭職了"},{"start":3022.304,"end":3024.106,"text":"你如果繼續這個態度,你是不是也準備撐不久了呢?什麼脈絡?這叫複鎖?事實上是當時在整個有關於調查,有關於整個這個公文的這一個部分呢,其實主任是"},{"start":3039.258,"end":3056.024,"text":"您就請留在台上我想這個其實是有一個有一個具體的脈絡其實主要是指導那個同仁的公文的一個撰寫的一個過程那我想態度確實這樣用語確實不對所以我們也在這部分我們也對他有請你留在台上你竟然要一直上門就留在台上竟然說"},{"start":3057.024,"end":3074.045,"text":"劉玉娟是以不當的比喻要求同仁去自我找出問題的嚴重性才不會被他殺部長我覺得整個衛福部的高層完全沒有從勞動部的教訓悲劇得到教訓叫下屬去自殺表示誠意這個就比喻失當喔他講多少次叫人家去親生欸"},{"start":3075.663,"end":3078.765,"text":"你叫屬下去親身欸!阿你覺得比喻喔?比喻不當喔?嘿阿你知不知道欸!這根本就是衛福部版的利益良善版阿!"},{"start":3091.834,"end":3103.581,"text":"你一直在聽他說話嗎?報告委員,他的意思就是說你要對外要公開,要把細節講得清楚他的意思就是說你要先自己先處理,你如果自己沒有先處理的話那你等到外界來的話那這樣可能就不妥所以他的整個脈絡是這樣啦所以我會說這個比喻真的是真的不當所以我們也覺得就是說這個部分應該可以"},{"start":3117.159,"end":3129.006,"text":"部長,像劉玉娟這種高壓領導、言語霸凌,你覺得還好補救?像北分署一樣無姓同仁一樣做出無法挽救的選擇嗎?你真的要等鬧出人命嗎?好,我現在唸一個訊息給你聽。委員好,這封信是在沉痛的心情下寫的。"},{"start":3133.789,"end":3158.75,"text":"感謝委員舉發劉市長的二舉當看到委員的咨詢時知道終於有人會關注辛苦、受苦的同仁就在前幾天一位同仁輾轉告訴我臺北業務組一位濟姓同仁在109年6月在家自殺身亡他本身是虔誠的基督徒一個基督徒為何會自殺當然如委員之前所述SOP的結論就是濟姓員工因憂鬱症而自殺死亡"},{"start":3160.084,"end":3181.821,"text":"與主管管教無關然而該科是由五六位同仁要求做心理輔導這件事的處理是由劉司長以及他當時的心腹賴信科長一起處理至於如何處理事實如何外人無法得知也無法進一步查證畢竟當時的劉組長現在已經高升衛福部的主命當時的賴信科長也高升本署的"},{"start":3183.039,"end":3205.075,"text":"屬本部的副組長請問關關相互下誰敢說這位同仁表達是因為他看不下去一直都留著這位寄信同仁的副文這還是都還是曾經人寫的希望將來有一天能還這位同仁清白今天的調查結果一定不會有以上的案情說明果然是沒有這樣就證明總統及行政院長卓院長的指示根本不會落實還受這個能夠還給這個受冤者清白好我們看這個"},{"start":3214.799,"end":3232.916,"text":"這就是大衛親身的建保署台北業務組同仁的副文這是四年前的事當時建保署台北業務組的組長就是劉玉娟我想你可能不清楚劉玉娟在建保署台北業務組的時候裡面的員工有多痛苦根本是度日如年我再念一段陳情文給你聽"},{"start":3234.512,"end":3256.078,"text":"劉司長於109年3月接掌健保署臺北業務組組長這是臺北業務組同仁夢夜的開始一、有位同仁儘管現在已經退休他說他到現在只要聽到劉司長的一切消息手仍然會顫抖他只想要忘記這段過去拒絕談論這一切但他希望有人能夠勇敢的站出來舉發二、有兩位科長因受不了劉司長的"},{"start":3257.778,"end":3283.497,"text":"長官領導風格括號自動降調為非主管另外有一位專委三位科長被逼退休由於目前仍在署內的資訊同仁署本部資訊長官只能盡量用會議的名義讓他回署本部逃離工作現場這是我最近所聽聞的一切一切聽聞當然也是要以署理依據總統及行政院長的指示一一要調查清楚及釐清"},{"start":3283.917,"end":3307.111,"text":"但是仍然令人失望有人跟我說這種問卷調查結果會有很大的失真不是所有同仁都知道只給新進人員所以受傷的很多很多人都不知道有這份問卷調查甚至含杯離職或退休人都不知道有這份問卷所以在職的同仁及離職的同仁都認為問卷調查內容還只限於工作量的合理與否故意避開擴權濫權"},{"start":3309.713,"end":3316.497,"text":"所以填了也沒有效用因為他們是同一伙的關關相互對於做限制性的問卷調查敢怒不敢言這就是衛福部同仁的心聲希望你們聽進去我們絕對依規定並公處理"},{"start":3328.104,"end":3353.404,"text":"至於這一件事件剛剛您說的事件我們也了解得相當清楚請李市長說明一下報告委員其實這個事件我們都有遺憾但是據我們了解這個狀況事實上同仁十多年前就已經有接受相關的一個就已經接受治療那其實這個有關的整個事件發生跟調查情況市政委員都可以查證那其實老實說發生這個情況我們真的都不樂見但是我要強調這個事實上就整個時序上市長市長"},{"start":3356.486,"end":3377.063,"text":"然後如果說我們也不樂見有心人士來刻意操作這種不幸的事件來影射老實說對於這個家長還有對於同仁事實上都是一個整個惡毒的一個惡毒的傷害如果委員如果有了解我們都可以把相關的就醫記錄跟報告來跟委員報告謝謝不停最後一次一屆大樓的性騷案你有沒有注意到這個新聞性騷案"},{"start":3379.025,"end":3388.639,"text":"根據新聞報導某位國內知名的婦產科全衛西教授性騷擾6名住院研究醫師而且已經經過臺大醫院性評會教評會調查確認博定你覺得已經經過確認該如何處置這位醫師博定你說"},{"start":3395.714,"end":3417.142,"text":"我想醫師如果涉及性騷擾性侵害或者是性別除了應該由雇主以性騷擾防治法性別就性別性品三法的規定來辦理或者由司法機關追來部長我要跟你講這位西教授不甘心唷堂鼠利用"},{"start":3418.562,"end":3422.944,"text":"業務機會犯罪行為經判刑確定或執行業務違反醫學倫理得依醫師法第25條規定由醫師工會或主管機關依附懲戒我想現在我沒看到懲戒啦這個徐教授不甘心還要找這個同為"},{"start":3434.868,"end":3443.07,"text":"國內婦產科大佬的總統府資政求救．這個資政還因此打電話給臺大校長陳文章關說甚至這個西教授現在已經轉到這個資政在臺中的任職這樣的安排OK嗎?你剛剛說從准理跟專業的角度我要告訴你不定婦產科醫師被認為性騷確認婦產科醫師的工作就是會牽涉接觸到女性最隱密的檢查"},{"start":3462.288,"end":3482.802,"text":"該醫院還怎麼說?什麼教會叫護理人員一旁監視?內診的時候換別的醫師做?簡直是亂來啊!不中!這是那幾位受害的醫師、女醫師她跟我們部內的某個立法委討論之後她寫了很多建議報告我念兩點給你聽信騷民醫離職台大後現職醫院隨便說內診"},{"start":3488.846,"end":3494.553,"text":"改別人接手他看診然後等內責改別人醫師接手但實際上衍生恐掛名跟實際執行醫師不一致的全責釐清問題當醫療糾紛出現的時候怎麼辦?好!很重要的不管是加碼人員條例第22條跟明文規定曾有性侵害、性騷擾、性剝削或內在兒童性行為不得在幼兒園服務或是營養師"},{"start":3509.089,"end":3535.207,"text":"第二條,營養師法第6條規定,懲犯訴清嚴毒條例、麻醉藥品管理條例或危害毒品危害條例等,並經判決認定不能擔任營養師。啊,那,沒中。啊,一個副常科醫師,已經被好多名醫師這樣子確認,性騷確認。我要告訴你們這些醫師喔,他不只是被摸到腦臀部,甚至還被摸進內褲,只能向院方申請保護令,禁止那位醫師靠近。"},{"start":3536.067,"end":3539.879,"text":"而且信騷的醫師們甚至要到專科醫師考完"},{"start":3541.055,"end":3568.568,"text":"才敢出來檢舉為什麼嗎因為醫療場域是一個非常封閉權力高度不對等這個大佬可能會影響他們專科醫師考試的結果所以你想想看一個女性副場科專科醫師接受四年高強度的去年之後要一邊擔心被他前輩性騷被摸大腿摸臀部甚至摸進內褲裡還要去看身心科醫師走不出被性騷的這個陰影站出來檢舉都在擔心我有一天會不會被秋後算帳保定"},{"start":3572.022,"end":3597.295,"text":"議員．議員．議員．議員．議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":3597.375,"end":3597.395,"text":"謝謝委員．謝謝"},{"start":3625.111,"end":3626.772,"text":"謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長接下來我們請林業群委員質詢主席有請邱部長委員長"},{"start":3649.929,"end":3666.196,"text":"部長早今天想跟你討論就是一直以來我在民間本來就很關心兒童安全那個實施方案所以想問部長兒少安全實施方案過去都多久修正一次"},{"start":3674.849,"end":3685.998,"text":"報告委員前一次應該是在106年的時候修正 這一次是在113年我先問的是說多久要修正一次 按照你們的進度"},{"start":3690.92,"end":3714.547,"text":"這個部分其實並沒有特別的一定規就是像一般的行政計畫或者什麼並沒有一定修正的期程部長現在少子女化越來越嚴重而稍一提不應該被邊緣化過去我一而再再而三的就呼籲請邱部長要好好的加把勁去處理這個那107年我們的事故協調會就說藉其應該滾動修正指標"},{"start":3720.647,"end":3744.694,"text":"的確上一次的版本是105年那我們在查事故上的這個記錄裡面你們有提到說要去滾動而且是每三年要做滾動修正那時候107年就講每三年可是很遺憾的現在113年了我看起來還是只有未完成的答案沒有辦法看到那所以部長你有掌握進度嗎"},{"start":3748.069,"end":3756.457,"text":"因為剛剛代理署長也講說你們沒有可是明明會議記錄當中就有寫說每三年要滾動式修正"},{"start":3758.351,"end":3785.884,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們馬上來瞭解他的現在的一個進度然後趕快依照現在的狀況是因為監察院111年113年都有提醒說因為他們注意到這個問題所以這兩年都有要求說衛福部是不是要盡速的去滾動檢討並且也提到說現在方案討論病入事故傷害協調會的做法跟頻率跟目前兒少權法協定的"},{"start":3787.344,"end":3811.494,"text":"法定的一個協調、研究審議、諮詢跟督導跟考核的功能都沒有所以難以有效的去下降兒少事故所以部長衛福部難道自己都不知道嗎?對這件事情視而不見嗎?我們非常重視兒少的一個安全我想在理事的質詢當中我們也謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":3812.634,"end":3830.783,"text":"也都一直在改善這個部分因為過去96年訂定這個兒童安全實施方案過去在社會室的時候內政部都每一年都有在檢討就後來合併到事故傷害協調防治委員會之後"},{"start":3831.69,"end":3847.806,"text":"反而就停擺了105年停擺到現在所以也希望部長能夠針對這一塊能夠盡數了解所以再來問部長說是不是曉得我們的方案指標的嚴定標準跟原則是什麼"},{"start":3851.008,"end":3875.118,"text":"我想兒少安全很重要的一個它的最常發生的就是意外事故所以這個部分應該最重要是聚焦在兒少的意外事故我想我們過去也參加過很多兒童健康協會相關的一個我相信你來自醫療界應該知道這個東西很重要都以這個為主要的一個認為這是最重要要去處理的問題"},{"start":3877.562,"end":3906.662,"text":"對,所以你的原則就在這邊齁那邊而且他當時就有提醒說應該聚焦在兒少意外事故齁而且應該要排除我們的各部會已經有做的事情不是把各部會有做的事情又繼續放進來因為要避免跌床駕屋還有減少過程指標應該著重在成果指標齁所以目標值應該要有前瞻性跟務實可行啦齁可是可以看到可是你們的草案"},{"start":3907.862,"end":3932.329,"text":"之前就講過啦可是為什麼最後現在送出來草案版本的那個考核目標設定真的是毫無誠意為什麼這麼講呢我覺得剛剛部長講說你很重視可是為什麼這次113你送出來的草案版本我仔細看首先有的目標居然已經達成了就像我們的提升我們的偏鄉地區民眾就醫就學的便利性的盤點偏鄉地區的民眾"},{"start":3934.389,"end":3943.375,"text":"交通需求以每年增加交通運輸的涵蓋率1%為目標這你們寫出來啊112年目標為91、113年目標為92可是現在就已經94了我不知道說那明年要訂什麼呢?謝謝委員指教。委員的寶貴意見我想我們這是一個草案"},{"start":3954.463,"end":3955.424,"text":"所以我想我們都可以來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":3975.458,"end":3993.576,"text":"跟委員報告目前現在所設定的指標總的來說就是根據以往大概下降的趨勢我們希望能夠有更精進去做一定的目標的設定那目前整個案子的進度是報到行政院之後行政院有要求我們就"},{"start":3994.116,"end":4007.762,"text":"理面的一部分的事項再做一些檢視我們都會相關檢討完之後再送到行政院去那委員所提示的有關指標的部分我們會再做一些檢視如果有可能我們會跟相關的部分再做一些協調"},{"start":4011.323,"end":4030.009,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4030.309,"end":4050.263,"text":"具體可操作甚至有前瞻性的而不是沒有前瞻性的目標請你們要去處理所以請衛福部在三個月內重新檢視研商跟修訂這個額上實施方案然後並儘速公布還有檢討每半年這過去我們就一直提醒"},{"start":4052.025,"end":4063.331,"text":"因為法裡面沒有要求沒有要求說你們要多久開一次可是我們希望能夠每三個月去檢討可是你們當時一直還是很堅持說要每半年才來召開"},{"start":4064.452,"end":4089.557,"text":"這樣的事故傷害協調會議討論的做法我覺得這要思考為什麼這麼講因為今天兒少死亡1到14歲是第一名事故傷害是第一名那應該要重視少子化不是只有要催生還要拒絕死亡這件事情要做到我覺得麻煩部長要把這件事情放在心上如果你一直在做催生可是沒有拒絕死亡的話依然我們的孩子呢一樣"},{"start":4091.038,"end":4111.644,"text":"即便我們身贏過日韓可是如果沒有拒絕死亡的話我們死亡數字上是超過日韓的再來就是空氣增這件事情我想不知道應該我不知道有沒有收到這樣的一個訊息因為最近有一款這樣很多脆友或者是這樣都開始引為恐慌因為為什麼"},{"start":4112.484,"end":4130.283,"text":"因為竟然事實上一個玩具還有一個針頭還有一個矽膠娃娃透過這個空氣針打就會讓這個娃娃膨脹起來之後為了戳那個泡泡呢大家就覺得很抒壓可是我們辦公室收到這樣子的問題之後我們也看到經濟部趕快要求"},{"start":4130.683,"end":4146.111,"text":"我們的電商平臺下架不得販售這個很好可是我們辦公室搜尋針筒的確實沒有找到相關的產品所以想問部長畫面中的空氣針是不是就是針筒也請問一下這針筒的定義是什麼"},{"start":4148.965,"end":4160.499,"text":"看起來的確像針筒所以應該是沒有監測核准其實都是不能使用"},{"start":4161.303,"end":4190.555,"text":"所以這種針頭很鋒利嘛若不是刺入人體的話有可能會導致蜂窩性組織炎那甚至空氣針的空氣栓塞等致命的狀況所以我們就去搜尋各類關鍵字出現了不同的空氣針、精油針、工業用針、寵物針出現各種不同的針頭所以想問衛福部這到底是不是針頭是合法的醫材嗎需不需要下架"},{"start":4192.265,"end":4217.514,"text":"請署長回答一下報告委員因為這些他的徵筒的字眼因為他們沒有申請醫材申請所以我們不認為他是醫材如果這樣子我們會回去請我們的那個醫莊組進行這個網路的搜尋然後希望他們能下架因為他們沒有以醫、醫材的方式來申請所以我們上面是沒有記錄的是可是我們就是去問了你們的醫莊組"},{"start":4219.693,"end":4219.713,"text":"議員．述"},{"start":4235.175,"end":4262.068,"text":"說你答案是不太一樣的但這一玩具真的就是真正的真桶一樣事實上是有危險性的所以想問反共部長業務單位這樣回答如果藥品跟糖漿業者只要說明上是說糖果宣稱是糖果那衛福部就不會做藥品來管理嗎我們大概會以食品來管理那為什麼會這個會說宣稱玩具就不是以醫材來做管理"},{"start":4263.414,"end":4289.874,"text":"報告委員我們這個因為他在那個醫財管理辦法上面他必須要在他宣稱他是醫財的時候他會申請醫財的認可那時候我們才會進行可是這針筒有沒有危險性是報告委員是有對所以針對空氣針的販售問題請衛福部立即會同的關務署跟國貿署跟速發部去清查我們的網"},{"start":4290.811,"end":4313.985,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4314.338,"end":4328.95,"text":"那個有傷害到人體的質疑我想這都是要處理的這都是要嚴格來處理的好再麻煩我們的衛福部好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝葉群委員謝謝部長下一位質詢的委員是蘇清泉委員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議"},{"start":4349.473,"end":4357.107,"text":"謝謝主席。我請部長。好。有請邱部長。國衛院長。國衛院長。議事司司長。議事司司長。口腔司司長。口腔司司長。"},{"start":4365.001,"end":4384.996,"text":"委員長辛苦了辛苦了那個上次逃動部這個霸凌事件也是我排一個檢討會報告然後就在這裡從早上一直砲轟到下午那到中午的時候行政院那邊就回復了"},{"start":4385.737,"end":4398.942,"text":"然後下午的時候4點半行政院長就召開記者會然後我們的何部長就辭職了那我覺得很惋惜啦吳吳部這一次的"},{"start":4400.957,"end":4421.222,"text":"這個事件的檢討我這裡要跟部長講一下就是早上我還收到你們衛務部員工的陳情救救我們衛務部的員工他說這一次的這個檢討報告是提高陳情到次長"},{"start":4422.482,"end":4443.384,"text":"所以他們還好,但是一般都是主秘在主持所以現在這個主秘一定先到減息到sustention開讓他沒做,他如果再回去當主秘那這些報告全部他都看到了嗎那這些人不是完蛋了嗎"},{"start":4445.202,"end":4463.135,"text":"好,謝謝召委的隨行。我想我們在一開始調查的過程當中都,我想那個理事長應該很清楚,指導這個整個就是說他負責召集嘛,他應該很清楚,只要是當我們在調查的時候所有的相關人都請假。"},{"start":4464.276,"end":4485.201,"text":"就是不行不影響到那個整個調查所以相關的人不會去看到他在這個報告裡面所以這個部分請大家放心絕對我們非常的保護到這個我們所訪談的所有的同仁而且絕對"},{"start":4486.721,"end":4496.711,"text":"做最最嚴密的一個保護所以這個這個案子將來即使誰呢當主秘他可以往前去review去拿出來去拿出來看會不會這樣"},{"start":4500.632,"end":4521.009,"text":"我想請處長,人事處長他會根據目前的那個規定調查報告不僅是密件而且是限約關係人都是不能看要有職權才能看的那結束就封起來了是不是這樣"},{"start":4523.411,"end":4531.275,"text":"我是覺得要勿妄勿縱啦,盲盲就這個我們那個年代當醫生喔,部長你也看不到啦,我們在開房,如果這樣不剛好,對主治醫師咖就要打來啊"},{"start":4541.259,"end":4557.076,"text":"他來後,他穿白色的衣服,穿了五色的衣服。那時候覺得很悲哀,但是那個年代就是這樣過來的。然後,三天持一日班,白天上班跟刀,晚上還要看急診,那個時候根本沒有急診專科醫師。"},{"start":4558.317,"end":4560.138,"text":"現在的主管或許以前是也曾經被霸凌過"},{"start":4585.945,"end":4594.611,"text":"那現在不要變成你是受害者將來變成加害者可能有什麼心態我不知道啦 部長你要看什麼"},{"start":4596.997,"end":4613.616,"text":"我想...我以前會被丟過病歷,是不敢用馬甲談啦。你外科系統的科研比較好,我內科系統的基本上是丟病歷啦。但是我從來沒有丟過年輕醫師的病歷。"},{"start":4618.277,"end":4633.952,"text":"我們的因為時代不一樣啦齁整個環境不一樣以及大家玩笑的方式不一樣啦齁陳昭素委員對你的這個這篇報告齁非常的不滿意啦齁那我想要講退回去"},{"start":4634.853,"end":4650.957,"text":"有點對你們難堪但是我想再回去好好的再再再回顧再review一下好不好我就不用那麼不好聽的字眼那這裡面有一些我看表現也不錯的啊像你們國會組這個張主任每次委員要愛衣服給他叫他都會來要穿什麼東西都會穿這樣"},{"start":4657.439,"end":4674.871,"text":"我們也想檢舉霸凌所以有的事就是要勿往勿縱我還是講這句話勿往勿縱一定要查詢我們一定屏風處理勿往勿縱對這個是很重要的因為我時間不多我要接續那個國會議員的"},{"start":4677.011,"end":4701.392,"text":"我們台灣的新生兒死亡率是比日本高將近一倍嘛然後呢我們國會院裡面有一個兒童健康什麼什麼什麼委員會喔你那委員會在幹嘛的是在做政策制定還是有到基層的practice到醫院這個層級因為五家兒童醫院的"},{"start":4702.941,"end":4713.968,"text":"院長也罷齁,他們來找我說他們希望成立可以為我們這邊成立一個兒童醫學健康研究中心然後他們來"},{"start":4716.132,"end":4734.38,"text":"整個台灣的資料然後做研究新的治療方法然後新的癌症治療方法等等那就依託在其中的一家醫院然後全國的資料都在這邊我第一句話就問說那你跟國會院這個機構有沒有疊床駕駛不然你就看誰"},{"start":4743.462,"end":4764.832,"text":"我想國會院是我們國家重要的健康智庫那它據我了解在過去成立相關的一個組織的時候其實在推動很多兒童的一個重要的議題的論壇那這個也都做得在政策上相關的好在醫院裡面當然就是"},{"start":4765.632,"end":4768.694,"text":"我現在是說國會院這個單位是不是在做政策制定而已啊?政策的原意跟制定"},{"start":4788.837,"end":4799.021,"text":"謝謝委員我們事實上是從102年開始因為當初很多立委鼓勵我們成立這個所謂的國家的兒童醫學研究中心"},{"start":4800.529,"end":4822.662,"text":"這幾年事實上是用醫發基金的這個經費雖然每年經費都在遞減但事實上我們維持每年都在遞減這幾年因為醫事師強力推動這個所謂的優化兒童醫療照護那個裡面就有很多的策略來結合不同的醫學中心、兒童醫院跟這個幼童的這個專責的這個醫師那他們現在怎麼會有這個要求呢?"},{"start":4828.434,"end":4854.257,"text":"會想說在臺大兒童醫院或者是哪裡放這個研究的中心?我想那個意思是臺大醫院熬課出生的。這邊的話我補充一下因為這是不同層級的研究。政策研究的部分其實我們是透過國會院然後推動兒童、幼兒童醫療網計畫得到的data其實沒有個資的情形現在其實是由國會院來提供"},{"start":4854.677,"end":4873.642,"text":"可是每個醫院對於每個disease其實他都希望有更深度的研究知道從預防端開始怎麼做所以針對每一個不同的面向的地方的話我只能說以國衛院而言他是從公共衛生的角度從疾病預防治療的角度那是每個醫院希望能夠做的事"},{"start":4874.988,"end":4879.733,"text":"我的想法就很單純,就是,孩子越生越少,變動關一年,今年是2023年過星期的八千五百多人,生小孩生了四千兩百,生沒一半啦。"},{"start":4890.362,"end":4890.502,"text":"這是好事啦!"},{"start":4917.583,"end":4940.361,"text":"那我請部長你責成我們國會議員和議事室跟這些兒童議員研究一下,看到底他們是要愛什麼,他們是要如何配合,要不要重複開,我們就沒有意思,這樣好不好?好,沒問題,這個非常重要,而且資源一定要放在各自能夠發揮,共同來領濟一個我們台灣最好的"},{"start":4941.201,"end":4968.695,"text":"兒童研究跟一個品質的體育對啦 這個很重要啦每一個都要好好的栽培每一個都是很重要來 那院長你請回那再來就是我們麻醉出問題啦診所出問題啦那醫生到底有沒有受訓那我瞭解起來不真的假的我等一下請市長回答齁他說那個診所做雷射然後打propofol"},{"start":4969.608,"end":4989.134,"text":"那這個牛奶針,我前幾天做大腸經胃鏡,我也煮那個,我也煮剖腹腹,但是我是病醫做,所以很擔心,那真的會呼吸會變壞,血壓會下降,所以那種針很好用,但是會出問題的。"},{"start":4990.615,"end":5006.289,"text":"我看你們的規範八項裡面沒有在石崇良當市長的時候制定的嘛那八項什麼銷鼓啦什麼的要麻醉在場那這個我的了解是那個執行醫師自己打打完自己再做然後這裡就輸於照顧"},{"start":5009.212,"end":5022.565,"text":"那個在醫院保證救得回來,那在診所,這樣被拒絕了這個是很糟糕的事情這個診所裡面醫美診所裡面醫師是現在準備要怎麼做這樣是沒有辦法接受的台灣有800家醫美診所真的有規範的才41家,是不是這樣"},{"start":5033.464,"end":5046.833,"text":"不是真的有規範是所有要執行就是我們這邊特管辦法的他都必須經過衛生局的審核然後第三方的認證經由醫策會的認證才是委員在講的所以是說在選擇要"},{"start":5048.654,"end":5073.559,"text":"合法而且品質優良的診所的部分的話我們其實是建議民眾第一個其實就優選醫政會通過認證的第二件事情是在執行推動的過程當中如果是說麻醉這件事情只能夠由麻醉科醫師做的話其實就會有人手不足的問題可是實際上面很多的情況下面都會運用到麻醉所以怎麼提升這個我們講的安全的部分的話"},{"start":5074.179,"end":5074.319,"text":"獲得訓練及提供訓練資訊"},{"start":5090.783,"end":5116.794,"text":"我不曉得麻醉專科醫師跟麻醉專科婦理師他們的前線跟他們的分際是在哪裡我搞不清楚像這種應該你要麻醉你就在醫院做就好了為什麼醫師到外面到處兼差這樣這樣一定會到最後一定是無人嘛無人就是這樣他先自己付自己出自己付自己弄都要出事情"},{"start":5118.359,"end":5146.673,"text":"所以這個要管理,不然大家不信心扁軍送、食品也不夠、什麼都不夠、問你做什麼都不夠我看連插管都不要插管所以這個很危險啦口腔師也是一樣,我要問你的你跟醫師是怎麼配合?牙科醫師現在是在聯合診所就可以實習嗎?還是PGY才在聯合診所?"},{"start":5151.728,"end":5156.155,"text":"牙科醫師實習一定是教學醫院。PGY的話的確有部分是在診所。"},{"start":5157.375,"end":5184.578,"text":"因為牙醫師本身一定要在急診受訓是 董事長你是急診的一定要在急診受訓過一定要在麻酔科受訓過這樣才有基本的救人的基本能力我 我已經接過好多牙醫師麻藥一打 因為麻藥裡面有麻検啊 寫到検裡面有加一些保釋命加一些 加一比一千的"},{"start":5185.419,"end":5186.38,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5205.014,"end":5219.021,"text":"在牙科診所還得了這個是一個漏洞啊所以實習沒有只有PGY有對只有PGY有PGY應該也要在教學醫院了在聯合診所上次就出事了高雄不是出事了嗎所以這個"},{"start":5221.789,"end":5224.773,"text":"謝謝委員我想謝謝委員的指教我想不管是醫療院所的品質安全"},{"start":5237.409,"end":5253.78,"text":"可以說是從朝委員您過去在擔任醫師公會理事長那個時候就一直呼籲大家一直在開這個會所以我們非常的重視那該如果在麻醉這個部分會比較需要再精進我們會找相關的醫學會"},{"start":5254.901,"end":5272.596,"text":"跟相關的專科醫學會、牙醫團體我們共同來研議看怎麼樣讓民眾真的到醫療院手是很安心而且是很安全的這是我們一定要努力追求的最後我再回過頭來行政院說要讓"},{"start":5274.11,"end":5276.152,"text":"雖然是匿名但是只要舉出他的"},{"start":5301.732,"end":5302.272,"text":"被檢舉者要勿忘勿重"},{"start":5326.195,"end":5328.958,"text":"剪輯的人我們要保護。就這麼簡單的道理。好,謝謝。好,謝謝趙偉。好,謝謝蘇委員。謝謝柯部長。"},{"start":5355.431,"end":5362.555,"text":"好,接下來我們請劉建國委員主席。謝謝召委,有請部長。"},{"start":5379.144,"end":5405.453,"text":"部長,我先請教一下,那個霸凌案的報告都有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嗎?有根本調查小組完成了以後,有送給我看,然後再公告。是嗎?所以就是有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嗎?對外報告嘛,對不對?是。好,OK。那我等一下再回過頭來請教你。是。"},{"start":5406.499,"end":5422.987,"text":"我在這個12月初的時候有諮詢過部長就是說我還是一直特別針對員工協助方案這個EAP的整個衛福部的整個要再重新加強的部分嘛那部長也有承諾過我"},{"start":5423.956,"end":5450.546,"text":"而且也特別特別強調說一定會加強是但我不曉得怎麼加強因為我們現在衛務部傳出一件又一件的這個霸凌事件那衛務部也本身又也喊出說要這個啟動嚴固聯聯工協助方案的EAP的實施甚至於這場安心計畫心理急救機制然後協助這個受事件影響的同仁來紓解這樣的一個壓力是這都是衛務部講的嘛是"},{"start":5451.306,"end":5460.321,"text":"那部長可以簡單答問我,現在所提供的員工協助方案是怎麼樣?我想員工協助方案推動計畫應該有一百"},{"start":5463.736,"end":5490.847,"text":"大概有這些年來都已經應該有10年以上的一個一個在推動的計畫它是而且是滾動式的一個修正那當然上次委員有執行到我們的計畫編列的預算是比較少這個可能因為是前面多年來一直滾動的我也尊重原來過去多年來編的一個預算但是如果有必要當然是一定要去"},{"start":5492.108,"end":5502.942,"text":"要去提高啦齁那這一次因為我們有這裏可能在調查的這段期間可能會有一些大家心理同等們心理需要"},{"start":5504.505,"end":5514.608,"text":"有一個諮商的管道所以即使推出兩個為期兩週的職場安心計畫有16個個人有16個完成諮商那團體有兩個場次這樣的一個諮商那我們如果有必要我們都會再繼續來安排來促進這個計畫那個你等一下"},{"start":5533.773,"end":5552.307,"text":"我講一下齁,給部長做參考,這個員工協助方案,勞動部一年給員工有五次啊,外務部一年給員工有幾次?簡單就好?三次嘛,你們是維持三次嘛齁?至少三次啊齁,那你們最多幾次?我們來這邊答覆"},{"start":5557.115,"end":5581.85,"text":"跟那個委員報告就是他有去他本身自己去尋求諮商的時候至少三次那諮商的團體他會給我們報告如果認為還需要深入的話我們就會根據評估報告再予以加強謝謝好那勞動部也是五次衛生部只有三次你們覺得這樣是夠的"},{"start":5588.24,"end":5605.756,"text":"不好意思,我們是講至少三次,然後會根據評估報告繼續再予以加強。我現在齁,我給部長,你先不要回去吧,你要趕快過去,你的時間,對保定也沒有準備。不好意思啦齁,因為我問你,你臨時會請我一張一張啦,這樣比較適合你趕快過去。"},{"start":5609.741,"end":5634.771,"text":"我寬佩你們會務部的網站目前只有國家中醫藥研究所明確在網站上有說明了你自己看就你想的嘛所謂的員工協助方案一年三次嘛其他的其他的我有找到有相關資訊是在106年叫做什麼員工協助方案數位教材微電影其他都沒有你們有沒有公告啊"},{"start":5635.814,"end":5645.798,"text":"到現在沒有公告啊我們諸選了之後還沒有公告啊你們說要加強要提高整個啟動員工學習方案的相關的這項計畫這個網站也沒有看到啊所以就是互不有啟動方式"},{"start":5654.554,"end":5678.321,"text":"不好意思委員齁其實我們每一次每年度的滾動計畫我們都會用公函通知各個單位那這個晚上如果沒有更新這是我們需要進行檢討的地方我們回去會予以感謝人事數的可能相關的數位的預算應該就不用多給了吧齁因為從106到現在106年1月26到現在嘛"},{"start":5683.728,"end":5708.548,"text":"然後部長已經有明示說要提高整個這個EAP的相關的一些企劃應該在這個網站裡必須要去公告才對嘛我們馬上來...馬上...這個齁 老東部已經弄得亂七八糟但是在心理上這一塊衛福部是專業的這是你的專業嘛齁那你們應該主管的相關資源應該都很到位怎麼結果弄起來比一個中醫藥研究所還..."},{"start":5710.267,"end":5728.05,"text":"好像只有一個宗教研究所比較認真其他好像都沒有這說不過去那上禮拜勞動部部長對本委員會做出這樣承諾給部長做參考雖然一百億私人度預算已經編列了因為他是兩個禮拜的部長"},{"start":5729.508,"end":5745.5,"text":"部長你是什麼時候就任的,大家很清楚嘛,114年的預算就是你的預算了啦,就是你的政策要去執行了嘛。那黃部長還講說,雖然114年的預算已經編列了,但他會去找錢,把勞動部整體的員工協助方案從180萬增加到235.9萬,然後同時115年度他會繼續增加預算。"},{"start":5751.684,"end":5772.534,"text":"相對目前勞動部一年雖然五次的諮商但接下來只要經過評估需要也會繼續增加這個次數那我再跟你分享我在兩年前在追司法院的時候他是在2022年被我檢討過一次的時候他原本是一年八次他現在已經提高到12次我們還要再三次還要四情況才要再增加"},{"start":5779.147,"end":5780.728,"text":"衛福部呢?"},{"start":5780.728,"end":5783.591,"text":"咱是衛福部呢?"},{"start":5783.591,"end":5785.513,"text":"用腳一擺,咱叫做衛福部呢?"},{"start":5787.727,"end":5809.973,"text":"我想我們一定來檢討、精進,如果有需要我們在預算上面,我們會由各個管道來爭取足夠的預算來做這件很重要的事情。還有一個很重要的事情,勞動部已經承諾要將承攬人力納入員工協助方案的服務對象,你們有嗎?你們的經濟有把這個納入嗎?準備納入嗎?還是到現在沒有要納入?"},{"start":5813.218,"end":5828.923,"text":"我們現在的員工協助方案就是我們在部裡面服務的各類人員、承攬人員是有包括?是有包括。好,那就很好。那就很好。那我就請教一下衛務部首屬的單位包含像健保署人均57塊的員工協助方案要怎麼解決?怎麼包含?"},{"start":5836.164,"end":5855.571,"text":"五十七塊還不包含成人人員不是,我們是每個機關都有個別的員工先我當然知道,我怎麼會不知道我上次才把你們各個機關的員工先方案的相關預算都流列出來了啊那你說我有包含啊那我就請教你,我現在請教健保署這個機關它現在是人均五十七塊啊你說有包含啊,怎麼包含啊請說這個你要管道才對嘛你要掌握嘛,對不對"},{"start":5866.67,"end":5893.442,"text":"因為是這樣子,每個機關的預算是...是我自己去問每個機關那我們會責成我們的所屬機關要加強這部分的預...責了嗎?對,沒錯你責了嗎?責成嘛,對不對?責了嗎?責成出去了嗎?公文出去了嗎?什麼時候發了啊?然後要求他們車輛人員一定要納入在這裡面,什麼你所講的啊?有了嗎?公文出去了嗎?"},{"start":5895.829,"end":5918.818,"text":"我們回去馬上檢討,如果沒有,還沒有完成的話,馬上來完成。所以部長你在這裡聲錄的跟A咖做的應該是,應該是很大的落差嘛。我現在問你聽你就知道,我現在其實是要問你聽的嘛。情報稅額多一勺啊,還不包括承攬人員喔。那剛剛他答覆我是會把承攬人員納入嘛。那你說有折承嘛。你跟我下去了沒有?沒有?如何?要不要下去?"},{"start":5924.076,"end":5943.486,"text":"我們回去馬上處理黃部長已經答應我說114年度這個預算當然不是在他的任內編列但是他會想辦法去把錢找出來我希望部長也可以比較辦理啦可以吧沒問題然後目前衛福部到底有多少承攬人員請他回答好不好所屬機關"},{"start":5946.892,"end":5964.555,"text":"你們的所屬機關你掌握的你答覆委員會答覆清楚一點好不好你要納入嘛那你要掌握嘛不好意思喔那個所屬的這個機關都是他們的勞務那個可能我會後再把相關資料你回答我這樣現在回答我這樣你們要獻部長的不義啊你要納入你又不曉得所屬機關多少人你又要折騰所屬機關"},{"start":5976.752,"end":5983.774,"text":"你現在公園還不發出去然後你們說要提精進計畫你們的預算有沒有被審查勒你們的霸凌事件是最多的勒你們還用這種心態在面對社會大眾我具體要求一周內保安部長把相關EAP的精進計畫提到委員會"},{"start":6005.882,"end":6013.268,"text":"那委員會來審視,可以吧?可以好,謝謝沒問題我剛剛講霸凌案你請回吧我在11月21執行過部長與中心黨提出要於前一天20號和部長在委員會的狀況為警那請部長在霸凌案要調查清楚"},{"start":6032.332,"end":6061.69,"text":"那上週衛福部把這個調查報告都已經調出來的齁我想這個我不希望用再次震驚這四個字啦齁但是三案成立然後其他不成立還有另三案然後不成立你又記過長照司長記過一次社保司長申借兩次社工司的司長申借一次這個叫什麼意思捨地無影三百兩"},{"start":6066.027,"end":6087.447,"text":"所以我才請教說部長整個調查報告之後你有看過嗎?你有經過審視的時候才對外做宣布嗎?他的霸凌既然不成立為什麼還要記過?議員我現在先說兩個部分第一個我們這個所謂成立與否...李士林那天開記者會的時候你自己講到都結巴喔"},{"start":6088.308,"end":6101.798,"text":"你回答我你就小心一點報告委員我們這個裡面絕對都是要尊重我們這個裡面有那個委員外部委員他們的這個專業的那個成立所以整個這個過程全部都是由委員他們根據整個專業的部分來進行這個專業的那個調查"},{"start":6104.62,"end":6127.352,"text":"至於剛剛委員你剛剛有提到就是說為什麼他們那個不成立為什麼還要記過其實最主要事實上他們的行政有關於整個行政管理的那個部分行政管理要記過嘛對不對對沒錯所以說確實是有那個事實在記者會你講的嘛我對照你講的話好不好你聽聽看看常常是住市長在衛福部健康招時間要求人員要做特定運動衛福部認為並不合適"},{"start":6129.953,"end":6155.531,"text":"人員想如何運用健康操時間做何種運動應有自我選擇的權利要求深蹲及管理不當行流程討論後與行政懲處即一小過沒有錯吧?沒錯!市長要求人員在健康操做特定運動這不構成霸凌卻涉及管理不當小過一支對吧?沒錯!你要確定喔?沒錯!這樣小過你會記不完喔?"},{"start":6159.386,"end":6169.11,"text":"午休時間,職員如果持續開會,賠命開會,算不算管理不當?健康操時間,如果還繼續連在座位上趕報告,算不算管理不當?要不要記小過?你想管理不當啊。你用管理不當來形容啊。那我就請教你啊。我現在就挑戰你啊。"},{"start":6184.605,"end":6209.609,"text":"報告委員齁,其實不是只有社保司長嘛,社工司司長也是這樣嘛,對不對社工司司長他是因為就是說,他們司裡面有一個我現在跟你強調說,他的霸凌案不成立對,他有管理不當所以這個三個司長有被記過一次申請兩次,申請一次嘛,對不對叫管理不當嘛所以你的管理不當的認定界定是怎麼樣"},{"start":6210.563,"end":6239.37,"text":"你的範疇到什麼程度?我剛剛比喻的狀況是不是屬於管理不當?要不要記過?所屬機關的所長都要小心了你們會經常管理不當喔其實像對於什麼叫霸凌其實老實說人事總處他們有一個那你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你現在是界定在他的管理不當裡面對他們提出記過跟申介嘛我現在在跟你討論管理不當的認知跟範圍請你要說明清楚"},{"start":6241.872,"end":6247.96,"text":"這邊還有CDC、還有FDA、還有國建署、還有健保署。作為署長,你們的管理要當喔!你不當就要比照這樣辦理,記過一次、深切幾次喔!"},{"start":6260.182,"end":6288.076,"text":"報告委員,我們兩個重點。第一個,其實對於什麼叫霸凌,其實真的是有一個定義。這個部分我們完全都是尊重專家。因為老實說,我們自己主席是我們也不宜太過的一個干涉。這是第一個重點。第二個重點現在目前就是您剛剛所說的,其實三個樣態裡面,三個市長裡面其實有管理不當,可是另外有一些是督導不周的一個情況。"},{"start":6289.482,"end":6291.827,"text":"三個樣態我講一段勞動部重啓調查中的職場霸凌事判斷重點也有三個樣態也不想跟你做參考第一"},{"start":6300.578,"end":6302.46,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6327.498,"end":6350.155,"text":"記者會上你自己一直強調嘛齁這是一個同仁在健康招時間很和樂的一個活動師長沒有強迫任何人但轉頭你跟他記了一個小過我覺得你沒把問題複雜的把它搞得很複雜你不覺得齁你如果可以跟社會大眾說明清楚那你就去說明清楚"},{"start":6351.223,"end":6357.712,"text":"我還是希望部長你深思啊這事情你們評估清楚真的要評估清楚這事還有什麼後續你們思考清楚那都已經做給你們看了嘛就這個範圍嘛"},{"start":6369.008,"end":6389.987,"text":"報告委員我還是必須要說明一下我給你說明啊我都有時間給你說明對於所謂的但是你說明要讓人家聽得進去啊對於霸凌他大概有人事總處他有三個重要定義第一個就是必須是在職場環境裡面上對下運用權勢關係以延遲或者非延遲這是第一個重點"},{"start":6390.387,"end":6415.588,"text":"另外第二個呢他是必須要造成客觀上的一個所謂的工作上的敵意環境那第三個後果就是說對於當事人有產生他的整個作為心理貶抑人格上面等等這些那重要其實重要事實上是什麼叫持續性這是第一個判斷標準另外第二個是有沒有造成所謂的貶抑其實老實講啦你常常事實上這個我講下去我是覺得這也是為了"},{"start":6418.07,"end":6437.869,"text":"在整個管理行為上真的很不當我必須來講但是現在目前就是說其實我們這個部分就整個定義上來說真的都是尊重整個外部委員他們的這個獨立調查所以我想這個部分我也跟委員報告其實後續其實有關定義的部分我覺得"},{"start":6438.53,"end":6451.102,"text":"我們的社會科聯有不符合社會通念的部分,這個部分是不是我們一定會跟人種這邊對於那個整個標準的部分,大家我們民眾,其實說實話我也跟委員一樣,我也是覺得說這樣"},{"start":6454.545,"end":6474.087,"text":"按照這個定義是要說什麼呢?這對我們民眾真的是要有一個交代,要不然是不是後續?但是我們這個部分,我們因為整個程序,我們沒辦法受限於……市長,市長,我之前給你更多時間去講了,但是朝委一直給我按鈴"},{"start":6475.488,"end":6503.958,"text":"我必須要講你這邊只有多一個持續貶抑啦對啦坦白講啦那那那那員工協助方案做貨就比較不會有持續的發生這是真的這是正本期我知道所以我一直在講這個邏輯問題第二件事情我對這些被記過的手掌我沒有任何意見但是你們這樣的處理沒有霸凌記過因為管理不當我覺得這樣的這會給人家感覺你們到底在"},{"start":6505.499,"end":6520.798,"text":"在做什麼啦?這個我還請部長跟次長還有各位衛生部的官員要去對主管級的官員要去特別去審視一下何謂管理不當何謂管理不當而後的管理不當就比較辦理"},{"start":6523.069,"end":6530.897,"text":"最後,市長你先請,我請教國監署長。不好意思,我簡單說明一下好不好。你要看蔣議員時間要不要給你,他剛才是超過10倍分啦,沒關係。我超過,現在超過10萬鐘而已,還有倍分鐘而已。市長你對這次的霸凌案有什麼看法?"},{"start":6544.38,"end":6570.268,"text":"簡單就好一分經驗三十分、三十六、三十四我想保護員工絕對是我們最高的原則那如何營造讓整個同仁能夠在安全在友善在沒有壓力的情況下就是沒有額外其他的壓力的情況下來安全工作我想針對這一次的霸凌案我覺得說我們都必須要慎切檢討"},{"start":6571.836,"end":6595.34,"text":"國建署依據衛生組織的身體活動和久坐行為指南推動每天運動30分鐘,可分兩次15分鐘,所以推出15分鐘上班族健康操。也因此未必有健康操的時間。但是為什麼長照市的市長在健康操讓職員在那邊伏地挺身?老挖署、北溫署則叫職員在走廊跑步。"},{"start":6597.805,"end":6620.152,"text":"執掌上花個15分鐘運動你們要注意啦齁但是這個安全保護的意思應該是更需要嘛對不對然後現在這個健康的風氣還蠻盛行有的人下班之後他會到健身房去運動嘛你們要求他做這些事情他只要專注的把工作完成"},{"start":6620.99,"end":6632.557,"text":"不是就一件事,一件負責任的到位的事情嗎?那如果你覺得你就必須要這麼做,那你國健署去把指引定出來啊。我稍微說明一下齁,在長洲市的健康操時間"},{"start":6640.566,"end":6665.422,"text":"有一次有呈現說他做福利挺身,那個是在兩年前的時候因為有一個有一個新進來的時候,他有在練身體啦阿另外一個替代他的校園的阿不然你們兩個扁話嘛就這麼一次啦不是說每一次都在做福利挺身那其他的話我據我了解應該是市長帶著大家做一些可能"},{"start":6666.463,"end":6683.675,"text":"也許大家認得也不舒服或者是怎麼樣剛剛次長有提過的一些健康潮好啦即便常常所講的我們大家相信沒有問題嘛但是你看老化署、北溫署他就在走廊去跑步嘛所以國健署就把資金訂出來我是要求這樣嘛可以嗎"},{"start":6685.468,"end":6708.826,"text":"謝謝我沒有那個健康超的這個示範的影帶請大家跟著一起做所以都沒有用啦你把指引訂出來啦可以吧這個健康超的影帶很多年前就有我在十幾年前在臺大醫院十點到三點都要停十幾分鐘然後有錄影帶幫醫生就這樣做那個是啊是啊可以給他指引沒有啦可以給他指引訂出來可以吧"},{"start":6714.349,"end":6716.209,"text":"主席各位委員我也想請邱部長"},{"start":6743.14,"end":6757.22,"text":"邱部長我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢我有一種濃濃的即視感大概幾個禮拜以前何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法說這份報告很用心管理不當"},{"start":6758.542,"end":6762.007,"text":"剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當"},{"start":6777.054,"end":6795.561,"text":"他是深蹲要報告欸這個請理事長來我先跟大家說明一個那個委員會在報告那個深蹲他那個不是報告他那個就是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些邊運動邊開會邊深蹲邊開會大家就講一些就講一些"},{"start":6803.26,"end":6827.826,"text":"其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟委員報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的"},{"start":6829.446,"end":6842.01,"text":"我說部長那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是"},{"start":6845.728,"end":6870.629,"text":"都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?"},{"start":6872.579,"end":6894.09,"text":"我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面我完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉"},{"start":6895.43,"end":6911.635,"text":"但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的"},{"start":6915.95,"end":6934.381,"text":"我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個委員所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是 報告委員其實齁其實最重要其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些的一些的評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面齁其實除了我們有有四位的外部委員是獨立的"},{"start":6934.861,"end":6942.064,"text":"另外第二個呢就是我們在這過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁有有報告上報寫所以整個量化的其實還有我們這裡面透過整個所謂量化跟質化的這個的這個交叉交叉比對這個其實事實上就等於這個法庭上面就是整個調查的一個類似的政策"},{"start":6952.447,"end":6974.012,"text":"為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎你為什麼不將心比心如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊"},{"start":6975.051,"end":7001.232,"text":"你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的是他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人"},{"start":7002.333,"end":7018.288,"text":"然後他的自殺他殺可以這麼清楚這麼簡單的就說出口所以真的我們認為他比喻不大所以我們認為就是說但是他還在擔任他原來的位置不是嗎我們現在把他調離就是那個社保資金上的那這是他本來的位置他本來就是主密了他本來就是好嗎"},{"start":7021.84,"end":7047.592,"text":"然後你們就是報告委員他是本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛楊楊、薩薩、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要要務重"},{"start":7049.346,"end":7064.094,"text":"但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序"},{"start":7065.855,"end":7082.33,"text":"沒關係我們簡單的回答一下現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單嗎?大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的還是可參加可不參加?"},{"start":7086.598,"end":7094.114,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為"},{"start":7094.878,"end":7115.026,"text":"那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?健康操這個是我們的一個這個就是誠如剛剛部長說的這個我們是一個開放的一個時間也鼓勵但是做什麼形式這是個人那個個人的那個自由行為主管沒有任何權利去要求啦那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個這個文書"},{"start":7125.465,"end":7145.591,"text":"我覺得這個本來就是自由的啊就是一個時間你那個時間到時候你就放那個韻律我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統、行政院長說現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加"},{"start":7147.526,"end":7168.747,"text":"你覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵嘛是,剛剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了"},{"start":7169.741,"end":7176.744,"text":"你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管確有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?"},{"start":7199.449,"end":7220.778,"text":"報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一份證據說一份話,有一份證據我們就辦一份案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處,其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及相關的訪談之外﹖好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出﹖"},{"start":7221.938,"end":7250.656,"text":"這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidence based"},{"start":7250.996,"end":7253.999,"text":"這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明定體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明定出來體罰洪荒荒裡面"},{"start":7277.045,"end":7301.474,"text":"福利挺身是不是不用算在那裡以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身PK報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說那有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛"},{"start":7302.876,"end":7307.603,"text":"所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是啟訪和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來"},{"start":7314.039,"end":7334.955,"text":"報告委員我覺得他影片傳出來這個我們不好揣測他的這個動機是怎麼樣但是我們這個過程裡面我們的瞭解這個就是剛剛陳茹剛剛說的就是整個同仁他們在那邊一個所謂大家互相所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的"},{"start":7335.976,"end":7362.901,"text":"發言委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的職場環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實"},{"start":7363.781,"end":7390.8,"text":"部長也說我們現在結束之後我們這個事情到一個段落之後我們會再開始啟動對於整個主管以上對於什麼叫霸凌行為這是第一了還有管理的藝術還有溝通的藝術我想這個都很重要特別是老實說剛剛邱慶偉委員他也說他過去要做那個PGY這個我覺得整個這個過程裡面我們也要跟年輕世代也要共同學習我覺得最重要是要還給我們同仁不是我們要給同仁一個最好的我是具體建議啦因為很多人"},{"start":7392.061,"end":7419.195,"text":"問到現在大家都對這個報告很不能認同所以你要再生出一個報告的可能性非常的高因為你的報告是違反一般有在上班的人的基本的知識我相信你們如果在院會你們如果跟賴清德總統開會被這樣子對待應該也不是管理不當而就是扎扎實實的霸凌下一題對不起如此我想問部長"},{"start":7421.155,"end":7448.723,"text":"部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧"},{"start":7450.528,"end":7453.769,"text":"我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人"},{"start":7478.092,"end":7480.358,"text":"請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位 部長"},{"start":7482.574,"end":7510.326,"text":"不用做什麼嗎?有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。那所以好像已經離職了嘛。那如果有司法,或者是他看他的情節嘛,如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任,"},{"start":7511.346,"end":7526.094,"text":"那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是公會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎?你算不算主管機關?還是你覺得你要等公會?主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來做來移送那你會去關心嗎?"},{"start":7541.264,"end":7568.109,"text":"這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你們醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關"},{"start":7569.409,"end":7591.001,"text":"沒有,前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有些人也是你認識的,受害者我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上"},{"start":7594.414,"end":7612.837,"text":"因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的"},{"start":7615.25,"end":7631.941,"text":"你們要不要做?你們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處"},{"start":7635.956,"end":7650.642,"text":"部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢"},{"start":7660.936,"end":7666.391,"text":"你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該要保護這群受害的女醫師啊"},{"start":7669.253,"end":7691.801,"text":"我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於醫界的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個醫界長期"},{"start":7694.602,"end":7698.683,"text":"有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明"},{"start":7715.862,"end":7728.108,"text":"我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好沒問題謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢主席各位大家早是不是請我們邱部長"},{"start":7751.423,"end":7761.454,"text":"部長早你當過立委嗎那你現在擔任部長所以你應該清楚立法權跟行政權的差異吧"},{"start":7764.897,"end":7780.851,"text":"你知道公共工程會在9月下旬的時候預告修正採購評選委員會組織準則第4條之一它主要就針對考量各級民意機關、民意代表"},{"start":7781.891,"end":7796.337,"text":"擔任機關採購案的評選委員有造成行政權和立法權兩者混淆、衝突的可能所以進行修法。那部長你知道這個事情嗎?你知道這件事嗎?我沒有了解到那麼詳細,但是這樣的方向是對的。這件事這麼大條,你有沒有看過?方向是對的,你認為有沒有必要?"},{"start":7813.08,"end":7813.561,"text":"你覺得他們這樣修正有沒有必要?不知道。"},{"start":7825.943,"end":7850.612,"text":"民意代表不能夠去擔任啊應該是這樣子啊因為我們從小公民課本就教學生啊三權分立或是五權分立嘛立法權跟行政權本身就有各自的權責啊憲法第63條你知道我們當立委的立法院有議決、法律案、預算案、戒嚴案、大赦案、宣戰、構合、條約案及國家其他重要事項之權嘛"},{"start":7852.253,"end":7862.426,"text":"我們立法院就是在這樣的一個基礎上和範圍上來監督行政權所以民意代表同時擔任行政機關各類審議的委員當然不合理啊 對不對"},{"start":7868.612,"end":7881.004,"text":"所以工程會才會預告修正這個草案的原因也在這裡然後社會輿論也討論過了大家都覺得不合理啊那就你了解你覺得不合理嗎衛福部有沒有類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":7883.772,"end":7892.782,"text":"有沒有?你就你組織啦,有沒有?對啊,你的評選委員啊,各類的行政組織的委員會的運作,你行政部門的各類的組織的各委員會的運作有沒有這種狀況,你知不知道?"},{"start":7905.695,"end":7931.937,"text":"有沒有主席委員好衛福部目前我們所知這個事情是沒有那所屬機關到目前為止沒有報過來過你說所屬機關怎樣沒有報上來過衛福部都沒有所屬機關你不知道意思是這樣子嘛來你不知道我給你報備來啦我們PowerPoint的給他看一下啦你看有人就自動上去了"},{"start":7933.206,"end":7937.972,"text":"有人自動上台了我都還沒有請署長上台他自己就上台了"},{"start":7940.634,"end":7951.237,"text":"屬長自己知道啦!健保屬下的相關會議全民健康保險藥物共同擬定會議這個會議這麼重要?重要喔!他在決定什麼藥物要不要納入健保給付這個會議就是標準的行政權有行政決策權"},{"start":7965.55,"end":7980.759,"text":"這樣的一個會議裡面這個共理會議簡稱共理會議現在現在仍然有專家委員號稱專家委員是現職的民意代表23、24年兩年的名單"},{"start":7986.085,"end":7995.631,"text":"結果呢到立法院今年2月報到以後他也沒有辭職以自己黨的最高道德標準來看他決定要絕對要辭職他沒有辭啦但沒有辭的狀況裡面"},{"start":8001.774,"end":8008.118,"text":"開了七次會議請假三次他自己請假三次參與四次我並不想針對他但是單純就事論事我在這裡提醒衛福部你們在各個機關下的審議會議設置要點或辦法當中要不要需不需要把民意代表是不是擔任相關委員會的委員要不要進行盤點"},{"start":8031.734,"end":8041.241,"text":"你們又不要把所有的辦法規定回去改一改避免立法權跟行政權混亂混淆部長謝謝委員的主教我們會回去做整體的檢討你不敢說要改 你要檢討什麼叫檢討"},{"start":8056.523,"end":8072.373,"text":"檢討就是要改的然後要怎麼改你的各個委員會還有立法委員在裡面擔任委員嗎立委又兼行政決策權然後又說他來監督行政部門你自己都行政決策權然後監督你說要回頭去監督行政部門這不是笑話嗎署長你怎麼說要改"},{"start":8079.308,"end":8094.057,"text":"跟委員報告剛好這個任期也到了我們現在正在全面的檢討那個下一任就是明年2526會不會再有立委擔任委員我們會審慎的審慎你不敢說不會你不敢說不會你還要續聘他嗎"},{"start":8100.189,"end":8103.391,"text":"因為我們現在委員都還沒有這個委員佔了一個民間代表的缺他用民間代表的身份進去裡面當委員据有行政決策權"},{"start":8112.918,"end":8132.347,"text":"人家民間都沒其他的人啊一來在立法院裡做立委自己就可以監督行政機關了還有理由在民間的發言機制代表民間去佔位置嗎再來立委以專家學者的身份在你們的會議裡面發言我問你啦這個立委對你預算有生殺大權你們在開會的時候"},{"start":8136.383,"end":8150.875,"text":"你敢對他所的意見提出不同意見嗎?他可以監督行政機關：有掌握你們的預算權：很多人都只能夠接受他所提出來的意見這一種立委當委員你們敢違逆他的意見嗎?你現在不跟我說嗎?跟委員報告一天還有這種立委做委員的嗎?不要說人啦!不一定是他啦!"},{"start":8166.581,"end":8168.162,"text":"你敢敢敢的什麼呢?立委自己做、立委自己去行政院內、行政部門內做委員又有行政決策權、又有立委對行政的預算監督權用他講的硬"},{"start":8186.397,"end":8213.631,"text":"現在還有嗎?你這麼不敢說不會啦 這個跟委員報告當然過去這個陳委員齁長期是我們專家委員是我們專家會議的委員很久長期單院立委的時候就應該要知道角色衝突違反三權分立又是行政權又是立法權又是行政決策權又有立法院的監督預算權像話嗎?"},{"start":8216.585,"end":8220.007,"text":"你現在是他會代言的嗎 署長?不是針對他 我們就事論事 制度面制度面改一改了啦 人家看到工程會對社會討論的沸沸揚揚了"},{"start":8234.617,"end":8243.24,"text":"你們都還在那裏恃若無睹 部長你不知道 部長你的書竟然不知道 明明都知道 但是他有什麼不敢得罪立委 他的委就是因為他是立委啦 所以不敢給他拿掉啦 這就是為什麼需要改革 這個就是為什麼今天輪到我在這裏當壞人的原因嘛"},{"start":8260.666,"end":8263.829,"text":"你自己主動改革的感受到今天我就叫做派人所以這個由此可知啊立委又兼行政部門的委員多麼的多麼的憤格多麼的衝突多麼的不合理"},{"start":8281.018,"end":8287.422,"text":"我們會檢討來改進那很好那我要問下一個問題下一個問題也很嚴重一個女子在中山區某連鎖醫美中心打電波拉皮麻醉血氧濃度下降送醫搶救不治然後麻醉醫師就出來呼籲所有類型的醫美麻醉都應該由麻醉專科醫師執行我們大家看到奇怪怎麼這麼嚴重"},{"start":8311.098,"end":8320.545,"text":"部長,你12月9日出席衛福部活動的時候有受訪。你說,如果相關專科醫學會有任何建議,你們會立即召開討論,進一步強化規範。我現在問你,過去十年裡面,因為醫美麻醉而導致死亡的案例和案件數量有多少?"},{"start":8334.985,"end":8361.507,"text":"一件事我會想,你每天都在看媽媽說這問題有多嚴重啊會覺得一個個案過去十年過去十年因為醫美麻醉而死亡多少案例?報告委員我想我們品質安全就是這不是啦你就告訴我數量就好了不要講東講西的啦一、四、四你不知道你們看到這個個案發生你們都無動於衷嗎?"},{"start":8364.078,"end":8389.203,"text":"統計數據這次在過去裡面是沒有的這一點先跟沒有可是你看到個案發生了你不會想說我快要看了你看醫事司司長你不會想到說這個問題有多嚴重嗎去做電波拉皮的女性有多少男性有多少你不會覺得風險有多少跟你醫事司的業務有關你不會聯想到嗎你不覺得你有保護人民的權利義務權利嗎"},{"start":8392.065,"end":8418.771,"text":"所以我們這次是先了解到使用的藥物是所謂的POPOPO這個藥物是需要...市長!你不要跟我講你有多關心啊!連一年多次個案發生麻醉死亡在醫美裡面你不知道我覺得你很害怕啦我再問你你總是要去分析這些醫美麻醉產生醫療糾紛的案例的亂象有哪些吧那你才能想說你要怎麼去改善這一些亂象吧"},{"start":8420.111,"end":8425.754,"text":"你怎麽不能向你們部長說,誒,待會兒麻醉醫學會,醫學會若發言起來我就來討論。誒,中央沒有掌握問題,沒有分析亂象,然後叫醫學會、民間組織提對策,這樣補充,您這醫事室司長最好做啊,您這補充最好做啊,如果這樣我林淑芬就可以來做啊。"},{"start":8443.883,"end":8458.656,"text":"報告委員真的我從我以前擔任醫師公會的幹部以後我非常清楚就整個醫美的管理大概這10年來醫師是真的用很多的心因為醫美麻醉產生的糾紛"},{"start":8465.101,"end":8467.884,"text":"到底有多嚴重啊?你說你們很用心啊!你們說你們很多人在管理啊!你就告訴我問題有多嚴重!你說不出來說你們很用心在這裡睜眼說瞎話嘛!我跟你講安全就最重要可是你連安全的課題你都沒有掌握"},{"start":8486.903,"end":8492.327,"text":"你現在根據特定醫療技術檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法第25、29只有執行第25條的第7、第8大類第7項8大類特定美容醫學手術的全身麻醉或非全身麻醉的靜脈注射麻醉你們才規定要有麻醉專科醫師執行你們認為中度及輕度的這個鎮靜麻醉不需要專科醫師執行"},{"start":8517.103,"end":8542.163,"text":"然後你們在這裡就告訴我們說欸 來我們都很注重安全而這一次出事情的你們都知道是用所謂書棉麻醉這一種話術讓消費者讓去做電波拉棉覺得說欸書棉睡一下而已嘛書棉麻醉然後其實你們打的是牛奶針你們自己都知道這個叫Purple Four牛奶針"},{"start":8546.653,"end":8566.214,"text":"麻醉專科醫師蘇柏川表示,市面上主張的牛奶針大多都是深度鎮靜。現實上,只要俗稱牛奶針的Provo,都應該全部要找麻醉專科醫師。"},{"start":8567.936,"end":8589.408,"text":"中度鎮靜容易因為外界刺激減少或病患個人的因素瞬間會掉到深度鎮靜而病患在深度鎮靜的時候如果發生呼吸道阻塞只有5分鐘可以搶救所以站在安全的立場你們說你們管很多你們這一點就完全中放沒得管"},{"start":8590.348,"end":8605.989,"text":"所有的麻醉這種使用到牛奶針全部要麻醉專科醫師您沒規範高雄長庚醫院麻醉部教授級的主治醫師吳少群有說醫美打電波清醒可以講話叫做中度鎮靜"},{"start":8608.371,"end":8619.999,"text":"打電波完全睡著叫深度鎮靜而深度鎮靜是最危險的一種麻醉方式非常容易呼吸抑制或心血管中樞抑制只有具專業的麻醉專科醫師在旁監測才能確保病人安全"},{"start":8628.885,"end":8637.128,"text":"食藥署自己也說啊。食藥署的先訪稿說牛奶這一需要由專業醫師給藥使用過程必須由醫療人員持續監測病患的心臟及呼吸功能避免因藥物過量導致呼吸衰竭而死亡而台灣在2020年當時的麻醉醫學會的理事長陳坤寶他在撰寫美容醫學這個麻醉的時候也提到"},{"start":8655.115,"end":8683.635,"text":"靜脈全身麻醉是現行美容醫學為整形也漸漸在使用全身麻醉作為主要麻醉的方式是一種趨勢喔!欸!為整形現在很流行全身麻醉靜脈全身麻醉喔!你敢這樣說然後呢一定要有麻醉專科醫師在場否則一旦出事不堪後果不堪設想"},{"start":8684.744,"end":8685.846,"text":"然後呢?"},{"start":8685.846,"end":8693.476,"text":"啊,就有人會講啊。 你們也會講啊。 行政部門也會講啊。 不然呢,這個出題一位醫生：他也有麻醉專科的一角：也有執行電波拉皮捏：。 他是兩個專科捏：。 啊,現在來了捏。 同一個醫生"},{"start":8702.288,"end":8720.657,"text":"同時執行兩項業務部長你覺得合適嗎?我又是麻醉科醫師我同時執行麻醉我又做電波拉皮的手術我同時在做這個手術你覺得一個醫生做兩個工作適合嗎?同時有關於這一點應該要有兩位醫師在處理"},{"start":8730.015,"end":8731.679,"text":"對阿,台灣麻醉醫學會吳少群李氏在他寫的"},{"start":8735.441,"end":8761.141,"text":"常見的麻醉迷思和安全建議如下實務上手術醫師因為要專注在手術如果又分心兼職麻醉常常因為受製者會動而他就會一直加深劑量或是給到受製者不動了卻忘了要頻繁監測受製者的生理治療重新評估一條降維持劑量"},{"start":8762.222,"end":8777.509,"text":"如果沒有這樣子監測好的話,錯誤有可能會走向藥物過量或麻醉過深,導致嚴重的呼吸及血管抑制。所以呢,你講的沒有錯啊。他專心在做手術,但是手術的時候這個人會顛倒,他再做麻醉。再做手術、麻醉、麻醉到他不會顛倒,這樣。這樣,一個人我都做兩項工作。我們規定就是要兩位醫師。"},{"start":8789.614,"end":8803.118,"text":"沒有啦,你的手術都沒有規定要麻醉專科醫師在那裡了,還什麼兩位醫師?你的手術本身就沒有規定要專科醫師執行麻醉了,還什麼兩個醫生?所以這樣你知道嗎?抱歉主席你讓我這個主題問完了,這是個安全的問題,我快說好了所以我現在說這個這樣"},{"start":8814.764,"end":8815.324,"text":"應該是700多家"},{"start":8842.543,"end":8849.742,"text":"合準實行特定手術700多家那你知道麻醉科人數全國一共有多少人嗎?"},{"start":8851.277,"end":8875.841,"text":"一千六百個不要講大醫院職業也不要講說有執照然後他為就業的光是你的醫美診所七百多家那大醫院的麻醉手術要怎麼進行所以台灣的麻醉專科醫師的量能夠嗎?扣掉你說的七百多家的醫院他可以配置足夠的麻醉專科醫師嗎?若大家認個法律個定位去大家都愛麻醉科醫師"},{"start":8880.249,"end":8881.17,"text":"欸?幹嘛搞?"},{"start":8881.17,"end":8904.84,"text":"所以部長你剛剛講的不可以手術醫師兼任麻醉業務這個叫驚罵醫美診所的常態在每次的醫美診所發生麻醉事故以後呢你們到底有沒有真的去反省每一次的不幸的事故都要成為你政策上除錯的反省的機制啊啊你們剛才從剛才問到現在都沒有"},{"start":8909.978,"end":8930.831,"text":"你們有一個什麼東西可以把關醫美診所?我先補充幾件事。第一件事情,陳國剛那個人在推詢的麻醉其實基本上面他為什麼要做危險分析的原因就是因為人力要用在最適當的位置。那也因為這樣其實是由另外一個受過專業訓練的"},{"start":8932.392,"end":8937.673,"text":"其實所以訓練一起在協助醫生這才是重點你們的特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用的管理辦法只有第25條的第7項的八大類的特定美容醫學手術需要具備這個麻醉專科醫師啦而你們所謂的中度或輕度的鎮靜麻醉沒有規定啦它有需要訓練這個有寫"},{"start":8959.517,"end":8969.147,"text":"阿有訓練現在就講手術醫師跟麻醉不能同一個人啦這個就是最大的風險啦這個就是最大的風險啦現在寶弟我再跟你問啦你們醫策會2019年其實有鑑於診所人力醫院資源不如醫院充足且沒有醫院評鑑這一種東西"},{"start":8982.66,"end":8990.446,"text":"所以為了推升診所整體美容醫學服務品質你們辦了一個診所美容醫學的品質認證就是以安全為基軸要強調專業人員的資格資訊的透明、環境的安全專業及安全的醫療行為突發事件緊急應變措施及客訴處理追蹤服務等就是你講的來反正你們做這些醫美診所的要去認證安全結果呢"},{"start":9010.64,"end":9030.167,"text":"你全部認證和有通過你們認證的有幾家你知道嗎現在應該診所的部分好像剩三十幾家左右三十幾家四十一家我看的是四十一家你全部你說七百多家只有四十一家從2019年到現在五年了"},{"start":9033.068,"end":9050.378,"text":"五年你全部不獲得認證的比例低成這個樣子叫做你們重視醫美診所的安全你這樣說出來是笑話嘛所以呢全台核准的施行特定美容醫學手術機構這些診所是不是都安全"},{"start":9051.38,"end":9057.148,"text":"你們的認證率這麼低,不到一成。你說這樣的醫美診所的品質足夠叫做安全嗎?你們的認證都是最基本的、最核心的。含你的認證的不敢參加。"},{"start":9066.681,"end":9081.45,"text":"而由此可知外面的醫美診所的品質安全多麼堪憂我補充一下其實就是法規是樓地板品質的要求是天花板所以在這個中間的禮拜大家玩文字遊戲"},{"start":9082.651,"end":9098.062,"text":"那如果這麼樣子的話為什麼你認證五年的時間認證只有41家他在這邊其實是會牽涉到就是我覺得要問你這個不要講那麼多出事的這一家醫美診所有沒有通過你們認證你回答我應該是沒有應該是阿來有勒這因為我不確定"},{"start":9105.856,"end":9109.279,"text":"蘇偉春醫師來講喔你們在這個認證是以安全為基礎保障人民就醫的安全但是參與的診所偏少然後這個認證的項目分成兩類哪兩類"},{"start":9119.687,"end":9124.769,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":9140.674,"end":9140.854,"text":"這個細節我要確認好 這個蘇偉川講的"},{"start":9161.653,"end":9180.289,"text":"每有所屬是診所自行去選填他要認證哪一類是要光電類還是手術類但是呢電波拉皮就是光電治療不會在醫策會現行診所的麻醉鎮靜安全查核的範圍內所以他如果認證為光電類認證何可"},{"start":9184.893,"end":9192.896,"text":"也不保證他的麻醉鎮靜安全的安全因為醫策會沒有集合這一個項目另外申請手術類人家醫美診所也有偷吃包我只要去選割雙眼皮就好了"},{"start":9204.221,"end":9205.222,"text":"因為割雙眼皮不在特管法規範的手術內所以為醫策會去認證也不會特別去查有沒有符合麻醉規範老實說啦醫美診所再去接一個麻醉專科醫師"},{"start":9222.745,"end":9238.093,"text":"解開的大家都要選擇這個人、這個身份然後呢大家想我光電類認證過了但是你的麻醉安全沒有其實政府不要管你我手術類認證過了但我申請的是雙眼皮然後消費者看不見看不見電波拉皮的光電類嘛然後你以為他手術安全認證了這麼好那我就選有認證的結果他的認證只有選割雙眼皮"},{"start":9252.503,"end":9258.368,"text":"你聽到嗎?你都不知道,你的問題很嚴重。你14次你學到的特技的技術中,個案發生了還是有動於中?沒有想到我整體的醫美診所、醫美的這一些要怎麼規範都沒在想,就要你為了這給你提起。就這樣提起後,你聽到嗎?要解釋嗎?"},{"start":9277.399,"end":9283.923,"text":"市長,那你在這裡承諾,市長你覺得就哪幾面向你要處理?我會覺得是第一個第一件事情其實是"},{"start":9294.773,"end":9295.613,"text":"那一個醫生同時執行麻醉又執行手術那要怎麼處理?"},{"start":9324.301,"end":9347.727,"text":"現況就是規定在美濃醫學這邊是不行的所以我才會說落實規定這件事情你們要去集合嗎?全國你說如果不行啊大家都這樣做捏那很簡單喔你去要求他他的執行這個叫電波拉皮執行什麼手術的然後他的專科醫師有用到這個針的牛奶針的"},{"start":9350.968,"end":9376.394,"text":"那他的醫師有使用麻醉科醫師嗎?麻醉科醫師有沒有蓋章?全國總機查就知道了啊,絕對沒有的嘛我也會覺得是說落實這一塊其實是所有醫界都會很關心的然後怎麼樣在人力上面做到我現在講的是行政管理啦,行政管理沒有行政管理、沒有法規就等於是沒好大家講什麼都假"},{"start":9378.034,"end":9406.102,"text":"現在特管密碼裡面的美容醫療這一塊的輕度到中度就是需要兩個人的這件事情我覺得是我們可以來做落實的 醫生人家醫學會告訴你只要有牛奶針就絕對是必須要有麻醉科醫師啦不是一個人分四兩角啦 對啊然後也不是中度的啦 中度 同時再用大牙就再把它鑄下去 讓它不痛不痛 讓它比較好吸收對不對 容易就問題很嚴重 你們要好好想一下"},{"start":9409.227,"end":9415.013,"text":"謝謝林淑文委員、謝謝部長。那接下來我們請王振旭,王振旭委員執行完休息10分鐘。"},{"start":9437.65,"end":9438.61,"text":"麻煩大家加油"},{"start":9464.676,"end":9491.79,"text":"這個專案檢討報告裡面其實剛剛很多委員的想法還有我想媒體也披露出大家的意見可能也都不太一樣可是次長一直在強調就是說不要誤中當然也要不要誤忘嘛不然的話造成未來在處理上的一些困境所以針對這份報告剛好設定什麼樣的條件什麼情形之下才有需要重啓調查"},{"start":9493.371,"end":9497.836,"text":"目前有沒有這樣的這些循環?還是說這個需要嗎?好 那個 理事非常感謝我們王正旭委員的那個詮詢那我 容我這樣這一個說明三個重點第一我們的整個這個程序就是"},{"start":9514.861,"end":9522.708,"text":"外部委員大於內部委員外部委員有經過社會心理、諮商、行政法及霸凌等具有公信力的學者專家組成"},{"start":9531.115,"end":9545.203,"text":"第2個我們的程序量化實話我們都做了非常非常詳細的調查我們除了量化的這一個問卷之外我們全場我們總共有96位的同仁來願意來接受我們的這一個訪談"},{"start":9547.884,"end":9560.512,"text":"同時我們有相關的一個的一個事證所以整個這個程序面真的是有非常非常嚴謹的一個調查程序而且最重要就是說我們這個部分我們本部也都是尊重這個學者專家的一個相關的意見來做成"},{"start":9564.835,"end":9583.465,"text":"我們一定是尊重這一個委員的意見當然在這個過程裡面或許對於整個所謂什麼叫霸凌的定義其實老實說我們現在目前除了人種之外其實大部分我們是援引這一個法院的一個相關的判決法院它其實對於這個部分都有一個非常非常相關的這個定義"},{"start":9585.146,"end":9611.027,"text":"其實如果我們我覺得這個部分如果跟社會通面民眾如果說確實有一些我覺得這個我們會來後續來跟人種反映然後來做相關的就希望能夠透過大家不斷的去認識當初這個過程裡面尤其是外部委員提供的意見沒錯是小會打開的話讓你理解這樣的話對於這部分的報告大家可以慢慢的理解為什麼會做成這一份"},{"start":9612.107,"end":9631.964,"text":"狀況報告的這個最後結果。是是是。好,也謝謝,先謝謝次長。我今天有四個題目要給這個部長請教。一個就是落實分級醫療。再來就是藥品穩定的供應。再生醫療到底執法定定的進度如何。最後還是在強調這個麻醉安全的部分。"},{"start":9632.805,"end":9655.947,"text":"若實分級醫療大家都很清楚這個是非常重要的一個政策來針對醫療人力跟醫療資源合理的分配那我們也看到一些數據讓我們擔心好像初級照護在分級醫療成效不是那麼樣的理想那最近我們也看到這個前署長李博章署長也"},{"start":9657.288,"end":9681.593,"text":"提出建議說醫療有病意外也要針對於這個檢驗檢查實施的部分也希望有好的一個不溫負擔的一個處理模式當然我們也知道在這個過程很有可能會影響到這個就醫者的權益這個要如何能夠處理的比較妥當一點這需要智慧那目前健保署署長也在這裡齁也有規劃說要"},{"start":9684.594,"end":9707.029,"text":"不再統一定出醫院應降低的門診限數比率同時也要改透過分區共管會議要求門診比率較高的醫院來降低門診量我們也知道其實家庭意識制度是擔任守門診的角度部長也是這方面的專家可以同時請教一下署長"},{"start":9707.97,"end":9731.864,"text":"跟部長這邊要處理才有機會讓我們的分級醫療跟部分負擔可以同步來處理到一個讓在未來大家比較容易去理解跟接受的部分好 謝謝委員這麼專業的錘形關心到我們整個醫療體系怎麼樣做有效力的一個更的一個改革那其實我們從"},{"start":9733.845,"end":9748.005,"text":"在前兩屆尤其是李博章署長擔任的署長以後其實我們在這個地方已經討論過很多很多次的分級醫療包括提出的時候像測類"},{"start":9749.207,"end":9771.95,"text":"那也一個一個一直在基本在進行啦齁那我想剛剛委員所念的這個部分以及健保署所提的我還是要強調一點我們一定要站在民眾的立場上來思考也許比較會成功啦齁你說你要推分給醫療你給他用部分負擔或者是做一點限制"},{"start":9772.895,"end":9787.702,"text":"那對很多人他想去他如果還是相信醫學中心的話或者是大的基地醫院我想那個他還是會直接衝去並不會受到影響所以我們推了很多政策也許都沒有辦法達到明顯的"},{"start":9788.925,"end":9813.846,"text":"那個成效但是我在這邊還是要感謝這些人來的所有的醫療院所針對於分級醫療也很認真在配合啦所以臺灣的一個也成立了大概81個策略聯盟這策略聯盟就是醫院我相信任何一個醫院都有就大醫院都有各級醫院還有診所成立一個區域聯盟這個其實是過去的一個成效"},{"start":9814.426,"end":9837.912,"text":"但是看起來這數目數好像還是不是明顯那我覺得站在民眾的立場上我們來思考怎麼樣讓民眾能夠在社區就能夠找到一個他很信任而且什麼問題或家庭的不足個人小孩老人都可以找到一個可以互動的一個醫師甚至一個醫師群"},{"start":9839.756,"end":9859.026,"text":"這個其實在20年前來20年來我們也就成立社區醫療群就是往社區醫療群就是5到10個醫師成為一個家庭醫師群這個部分已經成為國際之光所以要好好善用這個我覺得政府應該加強這個家庭醫師群的功能"},{"start":9860.186,"end":9882.836,"text":"讓他在民眾都能夠直接有什麼任何問題就直接找找他如果在這邊就得到很好的照顧他不但要轉要轉診的時候也可以轉到最適當的一個醫師最適當的一個醫院這對民眾是一個很好的一個治療的方式一個非常有效率的方式所以如果能夠這樣的話我相信民眾自然就會分解醫療"},{"start":9884.116,"end":9895.795,"text":"透過民眾的自覺期待透過那民眾對基層醫療對社區醫療有信心後面的真的給他照顧好我想這是應該要做的重點"},{"start":9899.542,"end":9920.135,"text":"各位委員報告就如同剛剛部長所揭示的大的方向就是如何壯大基層讓民眾信任基層的服務所以我們已經有多項的計畫包含那個加一計畫二點大加一計畫如何協助這個這個基層的診所去提升他的這些智慧照顧資訊能力"},{"start":9922.256,"end":9928.962,"text":"我補充一下我們現在的人是需要從健康促進早期預疾病預防早期篩檢到後來在最後能夠居家醫療到最後善終這整個過程當中"},{"start":9946.198,"end":9957.557,"text":"真的很需要社區醫療把它加強那有必要的話就隨時轉到醫院這個雙向轉診非常暢通這真的是人民健康維護最好的一個方式"},{"start":9957.967,"end":9981.402,"text":"好感謝兩位再來就是藥品穩定供應的部分那個莊署長好像也有在現場我們知道最近有兩個相關的執法在做公告有四個修改的方向其實根據統計我們也知道說70%的健保藥品的使用是透過我們國產的藥品在處理"},{"start":9983.963,"end":10007.648,"text":"可是它只佔了總體要會的22%相對是偏低一些那如何能夠確保我們這個健保用藥供應的韌性跟穩定性這部分目前除了這個4個修法的方向以外那還有沒有其他政策上要再讓更多民眾能夠理解或者是讓我們在"},{"start":10009.329,"end":10023.804,"text":"這個製藥界也知道這樣的努力是可以讓我們的這個藥品的供應的韌性是可以能夠得到好的加強因為我們知道不管是在治療公衛啦或者是天災戰爭的這些韌性都非常非常的重要"},{"start":10025.194,"end":10052.868,"text":"謝謝委員的這個非常重要的催省那我想提供用藥安全跟品質然後增加供應的韌性是目前我們最具體努力在做的也具體的提出了相關的一些一些辦法那這個大概委員也有呈現那有沒有更具體要說明的我們先請健保署實施長幫我們再補充一下"},{"start":10053.488,"end":10079.067,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們從兩方面一方面是鼓勵這個新藥的開發就是國內的新藥的開發所以對於首發的新藥或者是在國際上上市兩年內可以到台灣製造的新藥或者是長期在國外但是屬於國內的新成分的這個藥品我們都會在這一次的修法裡面去提高這個給付的誘因"},{"start":10080.908,"end":10105.141,"text":"另外對於學密藥的部分我們則兩方面一方面是我們今年都開始實施對於生物相似性用藥的鼓勵措施來鼓勵醫療院所那麼有額外的獎勵計畫就是論質計酬方案那另外在這個藥價調整的時候對於必要的藥品該組裡面是少於三個品項那當年我們就不調整這個"},{"start":10106.522,"end":10107.603,"text":"希望民眾會對我們的國產用藥更有信心"},{"start":10129.605,"end":10153.842,"text":"有時候大家都很高興說今天要怎麼做才剛好這樣感謝再來就是有關於這個再生醫療執法的部分因為我們自從上半會期通過再生醫療雙法以後大家都很期待這個年底16個執法可以完成不知道現在已經12月這個有機會完成嗎"},{"start":10154.782,"end":10181.798,"text":"好,報告委員這分兩個部分一個是再生醫療法再生醫療法我們要擬定九個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案了大概預計在114年的第一季會進行法規的預告作業那有關於再生醫療治劑條例那這個部分我們都會訂七項執法規其中一項已經在今年的10月19號完成法規的預告那現在剛好在搜集各界的意見當中"},{"start":10183.219,"end":10208.566,"text":"目前其他的也陸續在進行因為大家都很期待啊尤其這個再生醫療很多很多民眾再生醫療這個很複雜也很多人性你看我們一個法就討論得很大力所以執法規我們更是要很仔細把它落實來主席我現在想問一個問題強化麻醉安全很快的"},{"start":10209.466,"end":10226.251,"text":"大家都已經很清楚了嘛齁現在就是說衛福部目前有沒有什麼討論規劃跟進度還是說有什麼樣的一個月或多久時間可不可以給我們一個書面報告好沒有問題我想我們趕快針對現在大家所隨興的問題"},{"start":10228.152,"end":10244.21,"text":"立刻來召集相關的單位、團體,一起來討論,連理出一個能夠真的是保護尤其是醫美診所能夠更加的安全、更加的有品質。好,謝謝副主席、謝謝主席、謝謝。謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。休息十分鐘。"},{"start":10284.065,"end":10284.693,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10980.731,"end":10981.172,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會。"},{"start":11005.063,"end":11015.106,"text":"我們在廖偉祥諮詢完之後處理臨時提案然後接著就休息20分鐘吃便當不能有霸凌現在請樓定偉委員諮詢好謝謝召委有請部長"},{"start":11032.831,"end":11033.912,"text":"部長請問一下你第一次當立委的時候是哪一年啊?"},{"start":11049.907,"end":11051.709,"text":"如果你質詢的提出正確的一個事實"},{"start":11065.993,"end":11092.327,"text":"指正政府要求改善回應的時候政府官員因為你是菜鳥立委就以機非程式糊弄的方式回應你公開記者會打臉你然後不久就按照你陳述的事實來處理並且告訴你這個答案啊就是你要求的請問一下你知道會感覺怎麼樣是憎怒要求道歉還是摸摸鼻子覺得自己菜鳥算了您覺得呢"},{"start":11093.047,"end":11117.607,"text":"我想我們都不會覺得自己是菜鳥算了這個好就這句話所以你可以認同為什麼我要一直追我覺得是一個公平正義一個公道我們來看一下113年10月16齁你們給我三個回函第一個回函16日用人單位考量0元具20年以上的國會經驗你們需要這是10月1611月8號"},{"start":11121.243,"end":11141.781,"text":"又給我一個回函:「經了解該員資格與徵才公告資格的確有不符。」這是11月8號的來我們看到11月20突然給我一個回函:「林員為輔仁大學哲學系碩士畢業與徵才公告資格卻有不符。」"},{"start":11142.481,"end":11160.889,"text":"即刻終止勞動契約。部長,食藥署的人事案我問了很多次了。部長,之前同意的理由是什麼?最後辭退零信付審查員的理由又是什麼?對照一、二、三,三個回函,現在你要怎麼轉回來?"},{"start":11163.206,"end":11163.927,"text":"您不覺得你整個就是在烏龍轉桌嗎?"},{"start":11179.728,"end":11193.589,"text":"對兩個另外被取的要怎麼交代他們都是公平的領選機制以為國家可以信任卻沒想到敗給的關說領員的薪資他的任職因為有做所以我們要發"},{"start":11194.59,"end":11215.781,"text":"這點沒錯但是錯誤的聘任是署內的長官那麼發給林園的公帑要不要追回還是這些長官要私人來顛覆?署內的長官用寄生戒就可以抹掉所有的關說還有沒有去落實誘人制度的公平公正公開的一個精神難道我們不用追究嗎?"},{"start":11216.661,"end":11234.074,"text":"霸凌很可惡但是接受關說更可惡接受關說還關關相誤是超級可惡所以我要問一下我們現在企科組的許昭凱組長難道寄生戒就可以了事了嗎生戒有什麼好怕的"},{"start":11235.063,"end":11253.696,"text":"到時候將功補過不就補回來了?莊署長您在學術界擔任教職應該享有很高的一個聲望您之前捨棄教職入朝為官短短半年今天我們回顧之前的記者會上面說的一個說法署長你說啊該位人員研究所的確不在徵求的範圍內"},{"start":11255.217,"end":11276.308,"text":"但是呢,署長表示尊重用人單位的推薦他的通過文件是你簽的跟現在實際狀況做對比你當初的說法跟學術界的一個所謂的作假論文又有什麼差別?跟學生考試作弊抓到以後理由還一堆有什麼不同?"},{"start":11277.318,"end":11301.41,"text":"部長,這個火鐘像會燒相於你。你要不要道歉?還要給另外兩位被娶的人一個道歉。你要不要為這個領導無方來做道歉?這是你6月以後開始上任所爭財的。你要不要明明不符合誘人資格卻在院會、在卓永泰院長旁邊、在國會殿堂上面說謊而道歉?"},{"start":11302.75,"end":11328.387,"text":"這個用人明顯的沒有符合用人制度今天我要再次的聲明我要求你道歉的不是只是對於本席而是對於這些被娶人員沒有接受到公平公正而且扭曲了事實讓社會的弱勢沒有良好家庭的背景的小孩在求職的路上輸在了起跑點就因為他沒有背景就因為他沒有人關說向社會來道歉"},{"start":11329.528,"end":11339.334,"text":"我想這個部分也要給這些備取生一個公道您不道歉我一定追到為止部長您在這個部分上我希望你有一個說法謝謝委員的關心跟催省我想"},{"start":11345.676,"end":11361.443,"text":"這個人事案我們也經過討論一連串的一個想要把它做到做到圓滿所以一開始當然就是用原來的一個我想署長這邊接受的訊息就是尊重用人單位這個其實每一個"},{"start":11363.784,"end":11367.227,"text":"那對於這個社會弱勢並沒有良好背景的孩子在求職路上輸在的關說"},{"start":11387.244,"end":11396.529,"text":"這個部分或者是他在所謂的並不符合用人規則但是他卻可以錄取你要不要跟這兩位備取生跟社會大眾做一個交代"},{"start":11398.811,"end":11418.626,"text":"對,我想這個部分應該當時的考量齁那個用人的單位的考量是那個哇,你一直在結巴欸我先救你啊我先救你,我也不願意待見我先講另外一個案件喔因為我們就不要拖在這個世界上人事案的另一件事情陳姓紀師"},{"start":11420.087,"end":11444.905,"text":"衛福部跟我回答成員在109年7月1號因配合組內的業務來做一個整合調整藥品組第三科藥界種枝成員與生達生產這兩間藥商具有二等級以內的親屬關係食藥署卻仍不避嫌仍執意要調這個該職究竟如何同意理由為何藥品組林建陽組長有關係嗎"},{"start":11446.468,"end":11461.741,"text":"最重要的是我有發文所知喔但是食藥署竟然拒絕回答請問部長這個表格為什麼會拒答?這表格有什麼問題嗎?上週五我又重新發文一次請問這次可不可以以我畫好的表格來據實回答?"},{"start":11463.175,"end":11466.057,"text":"我請署長回答一下好了"},{"start":11486.206,"end":11501.216,"text":"報告委員因為當時我們看到這份文的時候我們就調了所有的案件它事實上就會給委員的時候是所有的詳細的列表沒有到委員的這個表格填這個是我們當時的書主導你先告訴社會大眾他在是不是二等清"},{"start":11503.037,"end":11503.518,"text":"一個案子"},{"start":11531.095,"end":11555.943,"text":"大家有聽到嗎有一個案子不小心沒有避嫌到真的很抱歉那個案子是他要求在展演那我們是在疏審的時候不管這個案子是什麼有沒有避嫌到是今天法規規定要求的你告訴大家了有一個案子沒有避嫌到這就是為什麼我們要追的原因嘛所以我要講的是今天會追你們不是沒有原因"},{"start":11556.343,"end":11577.241,"text":"一定是中間有疏漏中間影響到了公平公正今天不管是所謂的入取的問題沒有公平公正對所有的藥界藥商大家追求的都是公平公正我們希望食藥署衛福部應該要道歉應該要改進應該要糾正我想這個部分您要最後回答我給你10秒"},{"start":11578.869,"end":11599.76,"text":"我們現在所有的系統已經在跑了,所以這才會那時候才調出這個案子,我們以後會更加...所以你願意改進是嗎?那改進就是因為有錯才會改進,對吧?是嗎?這個是我們當時的一個疏忽。好,謝謝。好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝部長。那接下來我們請何欣淳委員。黃秀,黃秀,謝謝。"},{"start":11610.37,"end":11615.815,"text":"抱歉抱歉跳跳跳又炸了啦黃秀文召委質詢謝謝主席我們請部長召委好"},{"start":11628.8,"end":11657.265,"text":"部長好,部長辛苦了。部長就今天的這個討論我是來希望就是說我們那個衛福部裡面的這個有關霸凌的這個案件那已經結果也有出來嘛。那我想請教就是說目前我們不論是行政院或者是我們衛福部這邊有一個霸凌的申訴就是申訴然後可能就是要求如果當事人的話可能就是要具名嘛。"},{"start":11658.866,"end":11684.759,"text":"提出。其實我覺得如果說以事實的話,如果當事人用具名的話,其實也是壓力非常的大。就是說當事人如果他受到主管的霸凌或其他人的霸凌,其實如果以他來具名的話,其實那個壓力之大,我覺得部長你應該也可以想見。再來就是說如果他登錄,就是說有這個霸凌的去登錄,"},{"start":11686.84,"end":11710.515,"text":"登錄之後可能就有這個長官找你來談談話就像之前那個勞動部一樣長官也許次長就來談談話談談話完之後覺得這好像也不是霸凌所以這個很多看到的就是說這個長官誤談之後也許就會測案那這個霸凌率可能就變成零"},{"start":11711.115,"end":11735.888,"text":"那我今天要講的就是說其實這個會有一個困境就是說這個申訴管道普遍認為如果說是要具名的話可能讓這個當事人會覺得對於這個管道不是那麼的信任可能會覺得不信任那另外如果說不具名的檢舉的話又留為這個黑函就通常都是這樣嘛尤其是公務機關如果你沒有具名的話"},{"start":11737.009,"end":11759.656,"text":"可能就會被列為說這個就是黑函那如果居民的話他壓力又非常的大那我想請教就是說怎麼樣就是在衛福部裡面怎麼樣讓你的基層的這個員工可以信任然後又可以落實這個查查然後又不會杜絕於這個就是要杜絕這個霸凌的這種情況在發生"},{"start":11761.519,"end":11786.465,"text":"是不是可以請先部長先回答?經過這些檢討我們做了一些處理以後我們更重要的是怎麼樣創造一個更友善更沒有零霸凌的一個環境這是我們不管是從法規制度從文化的建立從教育方面我們一定會全力來努力那至於說那個"},{"start":11787.885,"end":11809.564,"text":"另外就是不記名這個部分就行政院或者是我們也針對所有只要他不記名但是他有能夠講出他的一個事實的當事人以及具體的事證的話我們也會處理像這一次我們其實很多都是不記名在處理的"},{"start":11811.249,"end":11826.544,"text":"那至於說在相關的一個衛福部怎麼樣來做常規的一個處理這個部分請理事長來幫忙回應一下因為理事長現在是負責的"},{"start":11827.506,"end":11847.561,"text":"OK,非常非常感謝委員那個垂詢。誠如剛剛部長剛所說,我們整個這個相關,我們整個這個相關的那個程序,確實是在一個非常嚴格而且非常嚴謹的一個程序來進行。我在那個重複一次,第一個我們的外部委員高達四位。"},{"start":11848.362,"end":11872.91,"text":"然後其實大概cover大概就是說這一個領域裡面這個都是非常非常學有專精的一個專家學者所以他們對於相關的一個都已經非常有經驗另外第二個就是說我們在這個部分其實有進行高達96位的這個同仁的一個相關的調查的一個程序所以有相關的這一個部分我們都在做那至於剛剛委員您剛有特別提到有關具名不具名"},{"start":11873.49,"end":11890.779,"text":"基本上就是說其實我們只要就算是不具名但是你有具體指涉當事人以及具體的事證的話其實我們也受理其實我們這一次我們的調查就是根據這個原則所以讓我們的整個這一個收案的標準事實上是相對寬鬆的一個情況之下用比較寬鬆的標準來面對這一個事情"},{"start":11900.084,"end":11918.579,"text":"其實我們發現有時候部門如果有受到這樣子的不合理的對待也許他們會覺得說我直接向媒體爆料也許會直接跟這個部會來申訴的這個效果更好"},{"start":11919.399,"end":11937,"text":"我是覺得說未來這個管道就是說申訴的管道應該要更暢通那如果說以目前來講如果不合時宜的部分應該也要去做一個檢討所以那個次長你覺得說現在目前這樣的一個申訴的一個管道已經很暢通了嗎"},{"start":11937.921,"end":11965.138,"text":"報告委員其實部長常常跟我們講沒有最好只有更好所以我們這個基本上一定這個部分一定是要來持續精進讓同仁有一個最有尊嚴而且最好的一個整個這個工作環境其實委員也知道就是說其實在疫情期間還有我們衛福部其實擔負國家很重要的這個責任同仁真的非常辛苦然後還有我們社工長照這個部分但是即使是這樣"},{"start":11966.459,"end":11966.539,"text":"議員提到"},{"start":11999.541,"end":12018.434,"text":"來訪問這個行為人讓他們有一個整個交叉比對然後其實調查小組也是用這樣的一個整個交叉比對的結果來做成到底是否成立與否的一個根據所以確實整個這一個我們都是有所本的一個相關證據來做出我們是誤中但是也誤王的一個結論謝謝在衛環委員會這三個部會不論是衛福部、勞動部或環保署"},{"start":12025.679,"end":12030.265,"text":"環境部這三個部會其實我就以這一個預算審查的會期來講其實勞動部跟環境部兩個加起來的預算的提案都沒有衛福部一個部多"},{"start":12041.218,"end":12061.369,"text":"所以確實衛福部的這個案子真的非常的吃重而且我們所有的工作同仁我們的同仁確實真的這個工作量也非常大尤其是在預算會期你還要去委員所有的提案你還要一案一案去跟委員去做這個溝通確實真的是案件量也多然後溝通確實有時候"},{"start":12063.57,"end":12076.917,"text":"要花很多時間吼所以我也覺得說當公務人員當當這個在衛福部工作的這些公務人員確實真的非常非常的辛苦那我我想請教部長吼就是說案件量這麼多那工作量這麼大其實我"},{"start":12078.738,"end":12104.073,"text":"之前我們這個辦公室的一個同仁他有到這個衛福部本部去辦理那個醫事人員的證書結果在一樓的這個辦理的窗口辦理文件的時候這個服務人員你們衛福部的服務人員一方面要接電話就是接用那個耳麥接電話一方面又要服務來的這個民眾確實這個工作量真的非常的大那我想請教就是說如果人力不足的話"},{"start":12105.254,"end":12107.277,"text":"你總是要讓他們有一個好的一個工作環境吧?"},{"start":12123.117,"end":12151.406,"text":"我們一直在講就是說這個要讓勞工有一個好的工作環境那即使公務人員你要讓他有一個好的工作環境而不是讓他過勞所以我想請教部長就是說未來我們要怎麼樣去讓我們的這個衛福部裡面的這個工作能夠更有效率然後分工能夠更明確那另外就是說委員會的這個委員所有的提案其實你們衛福部這個預算的這個提案"},{"start":12153.427,"end":12179,"text":"您們的案子真的比這兩個部會加起來還多確實真的非常辛苦啦,趙委是啊,很辛苦耶所以我剛剛說趙委那個蘇趙委真的也要幫點忙尤其剩下幾天的時間啦真的要讓這些公務人員一方面能夠順利的去溝通然後讓這個案子能夠順利那另外一方面真的也不要讓他們過勞啦那我想請教部長,您未來要怎麼做"},{"start":12180.256,"end":12197.947,"text":"我想我們為了國家的發展、人民的健康相關的部門特別是衛福部真的是叫日以繼夜我想所有的人除了在上班的時候腦筋響著都是怎麼樣把他的工作做得正有品質這也是"},{"start":12199.15,"end":12226.666,"text":"人性一個求好一個也是一個求好的人性當然我們一直呼籲我們要有一個上班的時候就上班下班的時候就好好放鬆去做健康的工作跟家人相聚這是一個理想的狀況但是工作的量份量如果超過他上班時間能做的或者是在效率上我們是還有精進的空間的話這個部分的確會讓"},{"start":12228.479,"end":12253.584,"text":"因為我也算公務機關做了幾十年從台大醫院還有都是差不多在公務機關其實真的工作同仁都非常的辛苦壓力都非常的大所以我們真的要互相體諒互相支持然後用那領導者就必須要用更有效率讓大家更快樂的一個方式來帶領"},{"start":12255.105,"end":12268.743,"text":"那面對外面的壓力有時候主管者也要去承擔不要把壓力承到基層的太多到基層的一個同仁所以是社會主管也必須要去承擔的"},{"start":12269.944,"end":12295.027,"text":"一個責任當然主管也不要垮掉人力不足的部分其實我覺得應該要去爭取我們一直其實不管是預算或者人力這個都是隨著其實都是隨著工作的量以及我們求對人民的照顧求好當中真的也會自然就會增加那這個部分真的也是大家需要體諒跟幫忙"},{"start":12296.268,"end":12315.825,"text":"這樣才能夠讓我們的公務人員真的過得有尊嚴、快樂然後大家共同來改變一個更好的文化因為最近的一些事故讓我們的臺灣職場更好不管是勞動或者是公務能夠更好這就是我們這麼辛苦、這麼痛苦之下希望為臺灣能夠還貢獻這個部分"},{"start":12320.271,"end":12339.224,"text":"我結尾一下,你這樣一直要說我下來沒有,我當然就是中心的這個請因為預算會期總是這個需要跟所有的委員溝通只是我看到就是說那個衛福部的相關的這個預算提案這麼多這個這麼多確實"},{"start":12342.246,"end":12362.355,"text":"也讓衛福部的主管疲於奔命還要去溝通所以我覺得一方面可能人力不足的部分可能要再去補充另外一方面可能就是工作分配另外一方面可能也要請我們所有的委員也要去體恤不論是勞動士、勞工"},{"start":12365.276,"end":12389.163,"text":"其實勞工的這個工作環境其實公務人員的這個工作環境也要去重視而不是其實很多公務人員他即使假日加班或晚上加班他也不敢報加班費他就是責任制他就把工作做完那有時候工作做完可能就都三更半夜有時候早上就出門所以我覺得說我們大家互相體諒那尤其是在這個會期真的我也在這邊誠心的拜託這個召委"},{"start":12394.324,"end":12394.724,"text":"我回應一下 謝謝我想我在醫療這麼久"},{"start":12411.377,"end":12437.848,"text":"最聽到的可能會比較辛苦的都是衛福部聽說以前這幾天衛生署、衛福部其實都是到晚上都還是燈光開著真的一直都是很辛苦我相信能夠在衛福部工作這麼久真的是在這邊令人敬佩因為我才剛到沒多久我可以感謝過去大家的努力當然未來我們希望"},{"start":12438.348,"end":12438.368,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":12457.555,"end":12473.987,"text":"好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳召委謝謝部長那何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我人不在那再來請廖偉祥委員質詢那我們下個禮拜三禮拜四省衛生部的預算就是25、26大家準備好"},{"start":12485.247,"end":12487.449,"text":"謝謝主席 有請邱部長部長你好今天題目準備比較多我想要先問一下再生醫療雙法在上個會期的6月19號公佈通過那在條文的最後有說相關的規定施行細則跟施行日期由衛福部與行政院定之喔那差幾天就滿半年了為何到現在還不公佈細則跟日期"},{"start":12515.342,"end":12542.831,"text":"這兩個一個是再生醫療法一個是再生醫療制計法那再生醫療法由144在處理那因為牽涉到蠻多的內容部長請問那什麼時候可以九個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案預計在114年第一季進行法規預告作業114年第一季是不是所以114年可以齁好因為之前我看到有媒體也報導你的態度好像沒有太支持啊"},{"start":12543.551,"end":12565.444,"text":"希望不要因為這樣子拖延到我非常支持但是我必須要支持一個一個獨國利民的再生立法所以你們就是第一季第一季明年的第一季會出來第一季會預告預告好那到時候請到時候再跟你報告再跟你報告好不好那再來有關於霸凌案最新的調查報告"},{"start":12566.894,"end":12593.476,"text":"今天的專案報告內容中說霸凌案訪談了96名員工請問都是訪問在職的嗎?如果有訪問已經離職或是已經請掉外單位的員工應該不會只有96位吧?非常感謝廖委員對於我們這個問題的一個垂詢我跟委員報告我們這個部分除了我們現職的員工同仁之外其實也有已經已離職的員工"},{"start":12595.069,"end":12623.109,"text":"大概是幾個?有找到幾個移植員工?具體的案例,我想,我是不是有請這個人事處長來跟您做一個說明,謝謝。跟那個委員報告,我們這邊不方便去透露離職員工幾個個案,因為這個很容易被那個識別化,但是就是當初第一波網路問卷的時候,離職員工如果"},{"start":12624.329,"end":12640.016,"text":"就是說他如果因為好你說網路問卷嗎那你們發出幾份回收幾份網路問卷依照每個人他服務的單位不同只要他是現任跟前任的我就問說大概你們發出了幾份回收幾份"},{"start":12641.121,"end":12642.041,"text":"我們大概總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總"},{"start":12668.886,"end":12684.995,"text":"是不是對往生者不禁又覺得在家屬的傷口上傻眼?你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎?你們真的有查清楚嗎?報告委員我們對於調查要勿重但是也要勿枉那第一點第二點我們這個就是說那位同仁他的整個他的那個舊衣102年"},{"start":12688.336,"end":12689.477,"text":"我問一下那我另外進一步問喔另外叫人家深蹲啊"},{"start":12703.732,"end":12719.086,"text":"做福利挺身甚至這次根本就已經上升到體罰的層次那怎麼可能不是霸凌呢?如果不是旁邊有人把他錄下來不然你被強迫深蹲跟福利挺身的時候你有辦法錄影自保、蒐證自保嗎?報告是不是要重啟重寫啊?"},{"start":12719.827,"end":12748.077,"text":"是報告委員我做兩點說明第一個就是有關於福利及衛生我之前已經說是在那個是2022年12月那剛好有一位新進同仁進來然後他做就是他跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身然後呢師長他說那你的福利及衛生很強喔那另外還有一位替代役他也說他們平常會做所以你一直說他說他很強他就叫他來做福利及衛生給大家看那這樣算不算"},{"start":12749.537,"end":12754.92,"text":"這樣不算霸凌嗎?他如果說我有一個員工說深蹲很強,那我問你啊,這個我助理剛剛也跟我說他蠻會深蹲的,他說我現在叫他深蹲放PowerPoint,你覺得這樣算不算霸凌?這是不是也是利益良善?"},{"start":12765.965,"end":12783.683,"text":"今天我注意說他BMI比較高按照我們過去的一個整個這個法院的一個對於這一個部分的那個判決其實對於所謂霸凌他就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的那我必須要說這個住信司長他這個行為他這個管理行為我認為我也覺得這個實在是很不當啦"},{"start":12784.484,"end":12792.188,"text":"對,你都已經覺得不當了,那這怎麼可能不是霸凌?但是並沒有構成,我們必須要尊重學者專家他們的整個組織調查。今天我請我的助理說,我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦,他就也不好意思拒絕我,然後他就開始深蹲放簡報,我這樣會不會算霸凌?"},{"start":12808.032,"end":12814.234,"text":"不是,報告委員因為沒有啊,市長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得不太妥了啊對,我是說就整個管理行為上面來說這一個我是覺得應該要所以我們也因為這樣市長我跟你說你也知道上次這個何佩珊部長在這裡他一樣的調查報告弄出來之後你覺得大家會不會覺得很荒謬就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌那我覺得"},{"start":12834.682,"end":12848.53,"text":"我說真的聽到你們這樣的報告我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧如果今天一時興起他有一天說他剛去健身回來非常的非常的壯我就說那你做福利提升給大家看那大家會不會覺得很荒謬"},{"start":12850.742,"end":12851.943,"text":"市長因為我想這個很多人在檢舉我想就是"},{"start":12880.436,"end":12894.846,"text":"你們在報告之外真的沒有辦法讓大家很幸福你們是不是應該要再回去再去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊這看起來是很荒謬很離譜的事情喔那另外現在不只是這個霸凌案啊"},{"start":12896.226,"end":12907.675,"text":"連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威我們就這裡叫代號C教授好了被6名住院醫生研究醫生申訴性騷擾性騷擾案經過性評調查後確認有性騷擾的事實請問部長這個事情你有瞭解嗎?我有媒體來報導來瞭解部長你認識這個C教授嗎?"},{"start":12923.497,"end":12940.986,"text":"因為科別不太一樣阿你認不認識所以我知道這個人你知道這個人所以你認識他你知道習教授是誰我因為他上面也沒寫所以你剛剛說你知道這個人現在又說上面也沒寫到底知不知道我大概知道這樣的你知道這個人嗎你認不認識這個人"},{"start":12944.215,"end":12959.897,"text":"因為在不...因為不同的科而且距離算是...所以你認識嗎?你知道嗎?全部台大的人我大概都認識啊。哦所以你就認識嘛對不對?你就認識這位C教授嘛對不對?你認識這位C教授那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎?"},{"start":12961.482,"end":12989.438,"text":"我不知道你完全不知道那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色我們按規定按依法辦理依法辦理怎麼辦你我問你C教授他搶先申請退休打算保住退休金自請離職然後讓我想到這其實就跟我們當初勞動部霸凌情深案件謝宜榮前分署長一樣他想要在召開考記會之前自行請辭以免被免職或撤職"},{"start":12990.703,"end":13016.56,"text":"然後當時這個部長也是站在何沛山部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情喔那我想要請問一下這個C教授也同樣想要搶先申請退休的狀況您剛剛說依法辦理那依照你們的法這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免這個首先就是由雇主用雇主他可以依照他的行為去用針對性平三法的規定去處理"},{"start":13017.521,"end":13038.016,"text":"那這個是臺大醫院那因為臺大醫院他的職位應該是屬於臺大的老人部長你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎一個婦產科的權威性騷他的女醫生那他過去看過這麼多的女病患發生這個事情然後你認識這個人你覺得可以怎麼處理更好"},{"start":13039.523,"end":13063.228,"text":"我覺得依法辦理就最好我們的信憑三法過去在立法院也在上一屆很努力的工作好部長我跟你說其實這件事情還有最後後面還有一個很嚴重的部分是也根據媒體報導這個C教授竟然敢找總統府的資政求救並試圖施壓台大那不只拒絕悔過還找高層人士來幫腔來押案來吃案"},{"start":13064.161,"end":13074.882,"text":"那這也不是空穴來風喔這個我想就在C教授9月自請離職後他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府執政開設的醫院任職喔"},{"start":13076.741,"end":13092.322,"text":"你知道這個事嗎?部長有媒體上有看到你從媒體上面知道那這個事情走漏風聲之後這該醫院也偷偷的將這個C教授的照片和資料徹下看起來就是心虛或是確有歧視欲蓋彌彰的行為"},{"start":13094.324,"end":13121.433,"text":"那這次事件如果不是有什麼政壇大佬的媳婦啊或是臺大另外的婦產科的權威的媳婦啊企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者喔加上臺大的這個校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心拒絕關說我想這事也不了了之啊部長我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴這個運氣吧那我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府執政是誰"},{"start":13122.913,"end":13146.944,"text":"這位要幫他關說總統府執政是誰因為媒體沒有寫名字所以我不去猜測你不去猜測那你知不知道是誰媒體寫的是誰媒體寫的我我就說我不用不去猜測我是看他的行為對不對那我們想要知道這個總統府執政的話到底有沒有關說施壓這個調查我們應該怎麼做"},{"start":13151.258,"end":13153.88,"text":"這要由總統府來調查嗎?還是你們可以啟動調查?這個可能要從台灣大學那邊去了解他整個調查的過程當中所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎?會變成是教育部要叫台大去把它調查清楚嗎?還是衛福部可以有角色?"},{"start":13175.728,"end":13191.713,"text":"我們當然非常關心只要所有的工作醫療界的醫師醫藉福利界所有的工作同仁的尊嚴安全都跟我們當然都是我們關心的部長我想另外就進一步追問一下有一定的規範嘛"},{"start":13192.793,"end":13213.679,"text":"你知道他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候那個婦產科後來可能發現這個問題他就說他已經不讓這個醫師做內診了啦已經不讓這個醫師做內診那我想就是您是醫界的大佬也非常有經驗我想請問一下婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高他比較屬這個專家在下面吧那我再問你對專家在下面那我再問你"},{"start":13226.858,"end":13246.969,"text":"國監署長你可以回答一下嗎?如果不做內診就大概不會去做毛片啦我想那個他大概就是那我再進一步追問你今天他婦產科醫師有人來可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生那他不做內診換另外一個醫生幫他做內診出了醫療行為出了問題那誰要負責?"},{"start":13252.989,"end":13277.167,"text":"這個做檢查的就就會檢查的一個報告嘛齁比如說我們做超音波檢查就超音波檢查的人報告以及他部長反正整件事情就是很荒謬啊我想要問你的事情是這件事情如果不是就這樣不了了之喔我想未來大家可能都要碰運氣喔看誰可以把這件事情爆出來所以我想要問你這個要怎麼樣在制度上做改善和預防"},{"start":13278.993,"end":13279.093,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13300.185,"end":13328.611,"text":"如果台大醫院這個案例很簡單按照那個大院剛通過的性騷三法如果說是那個在台大醫院那邊如果說有任何一方是學生的話那就教育部那如果說其他的話那就性工法性工法那就勞動部阿所以衛福部都不管你們的事報告委那衛福部這邊我們現在目前就是有關於性騷三法三法裡面來如果不屬於性平不屬於校園不屬於職場就是我們主管的性騷防止法"},{"start":13329.601,"end":13357.979,"text":"所以他現在的狀況會是你們主管的嗎目前看起來如果說他對象是一般的病患有可能就是嘛對不對那你們現在可以做什麼他就進到申訴申訴調查署之後就會到縣市應該是臺北市政府的社會局他會做審議審議確定之後他就會做行政處罰那另外他的行為如果構成性騷25條就會進到司法調查我希望你們深入調查"},{"start":13359.06,"end":13386.721,"text":"這中間可能不只這六位是受害者這六位受害者他報出來只是真的是比較有辦法影響到大家關注度的我希望你們針對這個醫師好好的調查而且如果你說這個受害者這過程有碰到一般的病患但是又碰到有人施壓我也希望你們在施壓的那個人好好的調查有沒有這個狀況總統府執政到底是誰請你們給社會一個交代誰哪一個總統府執政這麼囂張"},{"start":13389.229,"end":13395.253,"text":"自己的人跑去這個性騷擾他還可以打電話想要押案、吃案太扯了吧然後聘用一個性騷擾的這個婦產科醫師然後跟他說我不讓他看內診很荒謬我們一定依法辦理好另外部長目前"},{"start":13411.847,"end":13427.962,"text":"醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫跟管制的問題非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美很多的藥品跟醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品"},{"start":13429.143,"end":13451.195,"text":"其實也顯示這段時間地下醫美在臺灣也逐步形成了產業鏈其實根據從醫界的側面瞭解地下醫美市場可能佔整個醫美市場近61%數字讓人震驚那也就是說這些無照服務等等的問題那簡單來講就是部長這個部分要怎麼加長管制避免很多的病患可能"},{"start":13452.472,"end":13477.429,"text":"跑去這些地方用到這些不合法的東西導致他們的權益受損好謝謝委員的擔心這也是讓如果以這樣的報道我們是不是令人憂心那這也是有虧了我們十幾年來從我們蘇昭偉我擔任醫師公會領導者的時候跟醫術師一直在對醫美方面做管理"},{"start":13478.229,"end":13489.874,"text":"不管是,讓他們有一個規則,不然他們也是做到很沒尊嚴的,我們老實說啦。做到怎樣很可憐,因為都醫師有時候...所以沒有,部長,因為時間有限,我還有很重要的要問你,所以你要怎麼做?"},{"start":13490.7,"end":13518.248,"text":"我們就好如果有違法的當然就要去查緝可是看起來你們執行很差欸我在下面下面再舉一個例子喔部長電子煙氾濫我們在過去很常常就是在質詢這件事情看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力欸網路上隨便一搜就很多網站在那邊販售電子煙然後有熱心民眾收集了300個違法的販售網站的名單希望你們去封禁"},{"start":13519.208,"end":13544.496,"text":"這個部分部長知道嗎?部長就是沒有啊你可能不了解處理狀況喔確實有民眾向Google檢舉但最終的結果就是你只要在Google台灣分站的搜尋上面搜尋電子煙下方會有警語喔但他警語完之後他連接到這300家的名單網頁而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析所以都連得上"},{"start":13545.316,"end":13549.469,"text":"那你知道這就是因為你們不積極處理本來是禁止名單現在變成購買推薦清單欸"},{"start":13553.779,"end":13577.87,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心那為這個我們在現在有跨部位的平台那其實我們也非常謝謝這個網路平台那我們有親國溝通所以做一層二層三層的一個屏蔽跟移除但看起來現在就是沒有啊而且他們還發展成LINE客服很多都是重複的ID不同的網站同一個LINE客服代表它已經是集團化的經營那你們要怎麼做"},{"start":13578.973,"end":13597.637,"text":"我想或者我們就是跟他如果真的是違法我們當然是依法看法那你什麼時候這300家你會禁掉?資料給我們我們來跟那人家已經檢舉過你們了你們都沒有看嗎?有我們已經禁了蠻多啦所以是不是委員你所說的這300家我們還上網查就是可以進去欸我們盡力來處理嘿"},{"start":13602.214,"end":13620.506,"text":"請你們不要再這麼鬆散,這個問題很嚴重。好,謝謝主席。我們一定會努力,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝六位,謝謝部長。來,我們接處理臨時提案。一共有七案,請一併先讀。"},{"start":13621.468,"end":13646.417,"text":"第一案要求衛生福利部應重啟職場霸凌調查建立基層部署願意坦言真話保障其權益之調查方式與機制針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如衛生福利部主秘劉玉娟長期照顧司司長駐建方等人進行完整詳細之調查並公開完整調查報告提案人委員陳昭芝、蘇星泉、邱振鈞"},{"start":13647.237,"end":13652.483,"text":"第二案,鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件．然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果．不但有為詳盡調查之問題．更有為特定主管層及官員袒護卸責之嫌．原要求衛生福利部應於本日下午午時前．將目前之調查報告．"},{"start":13669.341,"end":13680.542,"text":"提送至立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會外．並應公開至衛生福利部網站供國人檢視提案人委員陳昭芝、邱振軍、蘇清泉第三案"},{"start":13681.987,"end":13708.462,"text":"臺灣面臨少子化的今天兒童醫學的主要目的就是保護已出生的孩童減少孩童的折損因此兒童醫學最重要的方向應該是確保18歲以下的兒少族群健康或得到良好治療原要求政府選定具代表性兒童醫院在旗下成立兒童健康研究中心作為兒童健康提升與醫療研究的平台以顯著降低兒童患病的風險"},{"start":13709.222,"end":13735.516,"text":"提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、盧憲一第四案一目前除在執行特管辦法第二十五條有規定的八項手術麻醉資格有所規範限之外其他的光電、醫美或整形手術並沒有規範原要求衛福部比照醫療體系針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目納入規範提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、盧憲一第五案"},{"start":13737.315,"end":13760.525,"text":"考量衛福部內部管理標準合理化後．會讓往後的施政及業務背後．極有可能仍會有數不盡遭霸凌的人血饅頭存在．是以決議衛福部應限期於一週內．完成重啟調查並對外公開．藉此挽救殆盡之公信力．提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、陳昭芝第6案．"},{"start":13761.105,"end":13765.31,"text":"考量國家財政上受胎兒生產數下降將對國庫有減少健保支出的連帶影響因此政府應考量損益關係再益助並補足相當經費加大辦理對孕婦的經濟支持措施是以特決議衛福部應限期辦理"},{"start":13779.608,"end":13799.259,"text":"含產檢、計程車、嬰兒用品和孕婦用品在內之早期、中期及晚期懷孕券補助政策研議作業且當中應有延用至產後一年的規劃事後限期於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、陳昭芝"},{"start":13801.64,"end":13814.011,"text":"第7案中華民國多囊腎腎友協會已正式決議支持推動主管機關就腎臟活體捐贈資格因自目前五清等以內血清或配偶放寬參照單臟活體捐贈五清等因清之規範"},{"start":13818.315,"end":13840.162,"text":"是以考量衛福部應積極參採此等意見．並促進患者能速回歸正常人生．原要求衛福部限期於一個月內啟動研議及修正作業．事後於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、陳昭芝、盧憲一、黃建豪宣讀完畢好,請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見"},{"start":13850.408,"end":13870.975,"text":"主席以及部長還有各位委員大家好衛福部在這邊對於這一個臨時提案有關霸凌的部分有三點說明第一個我們提案的文字我們必須要說其實還是有部分有斷章取義的問題比如說像剛剛說什麼自殺他殺等這些"},{"start":13872.595,"end":13887.52,"text":"我們都有已經還原他當時的這一個脈絡所以這個基本上恐怕還是不宜另外第二個對於判斷到底是否霸凌與否我們都是基於市政跟你相關的訪談我們剛剛已經說有96位的這一個同仁那麼這一個過程當中其實訪談內容我們也都希望匿名"},{"start":13898.283,"end":13900.105,"text":"除非有非常有力的新事實、新證據"},{"start":13916.141,"end":13942.068,"text":"除非有非常有力的新事實、新證據否則在這樣目前已經經過詳細的調查以及訪談之後的這個結論基本上我們是否還是建議可能要尊重這個專業調查委員會的一個調查但是我們可以在一週內我們就整個相關的這個程序我們內部我們來做相關的這個檢討以上四點來跟這個會上做說明謝謝"},{"start":13946.912,"end":13950.937,"text":"陳委員,你要表達嗎?有喔,一定來,謝謝主席。理事長,我剛剛早上沒有跟你拍桌子。"},{"start":13960.168,"end":13984.467,"text":"你竟然說這個一個疑似親身的案子是操作不樂建議這個刻意的去操作我可是跟家屬聯繫過了家屬基本上他們當時是要做是要投訴的但他們覺得不可能有效不可能當時但是現在他覺得有人要替他們討公道了所以基本上"},{"start":13985.468,"end":13991.231,"text":"先生跟三個孩子都希望能夠有機會幫媽媽幫妻子討公道李次你提到剛剛你提到102年如果他有所謂你講的那個症狀猶豫症為什麼為什麼他的主管還繼續在職場霸凌他讓他做了一個不可逆的最後的一個最痛苦的決定"},{"start":14012.11,"end":14022.337,"text":"你當時有沒有去調查他旁邊你這一回有沒有去調查旁邊的同事們有沒有到他那一位只要聽到聽到留意卷就會都說都會顫抖的那位同事我你們在兩次報告第一次報告以後我丟出錄音帶拼命叫同事去親身自殺你還要幫他找全部的影帶出來"},{"start":14038.848,"end":14062.163,"text":"他平常不這麼講他平常講的話很多他每次都跟人家親生自殺你是聽當事人解釋嗎你是我要跟你講你剛剛講一百零二年那個東西你知道是誰調查了嗎就是現在的當事人調查的就是劉宇軒組長跟他信賴的這個他的心腹賴科長調查的做的報告你現在拿當事人的報告來告訴我你這個講法才是二十傷害啊"},{"start":14069.295,"end":14074.717,"text":"我正在邀請啊家屬準備帶他朋友到我辦公室來拜訪啊我順便召開個記者會啊你第一次報告我丟出那個錄音帶還要檢舉人同意你們說錄音帶還會斷章取義啊就聽得很清楚啊拼命叫人要親身親身啊然後第二次出來以後我可以做一個說明嗎你最好好好說明不要避重就輕不然我真的浪費時間"},{"start":14105.469,"end":14121.785,"text":"報告委員,三個重點第一個,您剛剛說我們的一個瞭解這位同仁他是102年開始有做相關的一些的一個就診記錄那相關的我想如果說委員需要的話我們可以把他你這次調查有去訪談他家屬嗎?訪談他當時的同事嗎?你怎麼調查的?"},{"start":14128.615,"end":14144.845,"text":"對啊!你就是拿他當時的報告啊!那個報告就是有問題啊!到今天才會在這個霸凌案出現以後這麼多人跟我投訴啊!對於台北業務組的人,劉玉娟的上任是個噩夢啊!你調查了誰?你告訴我你調查了誰?"},{"start":14155.77,"end":14178.75,"text":"先跟委員做個報告就是組密這個案子成立的時候當初因為是屬於業務組所以我們當初問卷的部分是健保署的業務組跟我們的社保司所以業務組這個範圍是不是請健保署來先來做個說明 謝謝"},{"start":14183.499,"end":14193.591,"text":"那時候他還沒有再到健保署去年才到健保署我想這是兩件事要把它分開來討論一下第一個就是您在提到的這個109年6月吧那個可能輕生這個"},{"start":14200.66,"end":14228.293,"text":"他其實106人到109人的整個過程其實大家可以來了解大家是誰為什麼家屬現在他的同事認為不是這樣那沒關係因為他原來有憂鬱症所以你認為就可以加以霸凌嗎他其實中間也有一直在休假啦那這個部分是一件事情我們可以來檢討那他是109人6月吧那第二件事情若不是你在調查過程那麼不公平那麼沒有真相"},{"start":14229.612,"end":14247.861,"text":"因為我們是在調查當時劉組長的時候他是109年的3月就任所以前面其實他都在這位同仁其實都在請假如果要檢討是不是應該檢討102年到109年這個當中他的一個狀況是怎麼樣這個102年到109年如果家屬真的是覺得有一些我們好好的來針對"},{"start":14259.673,"end":14275.594,"text":"則對此做檢討。至於說職場霸凌這個部份又是後面發展的一些事情,那這個我們另外一件來調查：霸凌有各種形式的,從前面開始：那我的意思,因為overlap：第一種屬相科長"},{"start":14277.637,"end":14293.599,"text":"可能只有兩三個月啊但是這中間你重啟調查重啟調查你把當事人當年109年是當現在的當事人去做的調查報告你把他當作而且現在的對象還是同一個人你把他的報告拿來當作你的報告嗎"},{"start":14294.861,"end":14300.226,"text":"你有重新去調查嗎?你沒有去調查嗎?我知道你沒有去調查嗎?人家隱忍很久。隱忍很久。看到現在有人跟一般他們沒有公道了。我認知這是一個新的事證。我們來做調查。"},{"start":14313.559,"end":14319.005,"text":"我第一次報告我給你新的事證就是錄音帶啊,你們忽視它啊,覺得那個錄音帶不太像是一樣。然後我只好第二次報告我再丟啊,再丟副文給你看啊。那你,對對對,你這個部分就是一個新的事證。它不是只有它一個人喔,那個環境很多人喔。"},{"start":14335.762,"end":14342.923,"text":"這個部分我們來調查沒問題從102到103到底發生了什麼事那就是重新調查嘛但是我不能全部都已經調查過再去調查已經調查的部分剛剛回答主秘只能限月就沒限月但是他還在主秘的位置上他未來可以看到很多資料他可以秋後算上只要有相關的都不會被看到大家人事處處長剛剛有講得很明你要保障他的職位是嗎"},{"start":14364.967,"end":14388.519,"text":"他的職位是一人之下、萬人之下嗎?沒有,我說實在,我到衛福部跟誰都沒有關係。都跟我沒有什麼那個...我們都是非常...那天我叫他上來,你馬上跟我說他很認真。認真跟他怕有什麼關係?不是不是,因為你上一次第一次提的時候,你說他連...上面寫的是年輕啦,很有權力。那個是另外一個檢舉案,但是我已經收到。所以那個時候的確那個字不是在形容他啦。我是這樣子而已啦。"},{"start":14394.482,"end":14406.676,"text":"那一篇不是形容他,但是主秘有主秘的檢舉者,所以我後來才請他上台那後來也列入調查啦,也列入調查啦所以我就是兩岸都要,兩岸一個就是說你現在的報告我要看到內容你現在的報告我要看到,然後你要重啟報告我變成我在調查,我幫你調查喔"},{"start":14415.185,"end":14431.612,"text":"我們第一案跟第二案第一案跟第二案先保留看看瞧瞧看要怎麼寫我們第三案來處理後面還有案子趕快第三案第三案行政當然沒有意見應該還好吧你有意見來"},{"start":14443.987,"end":14468.722,"text":"對,就是說在委員提案裡面是原案要求政府的政府研議選定具代表兒童醫院因為這需要跟各個五家兒童醫院這邊做一個討論所以在這邊只建議就是新增兩個字以上好那同意同意那第三案就這樣修改通過第四案"},{"start":14475.48,"end":14497.294,"text":"第三…第三這邊是不是也請教這邊就是演繹納入規範因為這個地方要做一些相對上面的討論然後全部納入的時候其實在我們覺得還是在過去的規定裡面要重新研討怎麼樣去落實這邊才是重點所以在這邊的話是建議增新再兩次演繹"},{"start":14498.895,"end":14519.197,"text":"嚴議納入規範．針對所有依美涉及麻醉項目嚴議納入規範．嚴議好OK那就通過來第五案陳慶輝第五案基本上我跟第一案第二案的意思是差不多的剛剛所有諮詢的委員幾乎沒有人對於這份報告信服"},{"start":14520.178,"end":14544.925,"text":"裡面實際有文字大概是四頁但提到我們檢這個調查的內容不到一頁大家對於最後送出來的處分也是一頭霧水完全不知道發生什麼事對於這些中階的主管公務員們為什麼會被調職一無所知然後反而是接獲許許多多陳情人的這些司長們"},{"start":14546.485,"end":14564.761,"text":"那是記過然後又說沒有霸凌的事實也說只是管理不當那我覺得我第5案跟第1案、第2案一起保留好了那第5案也跟1、2、5保留齁來第6案"},{"start":14572.492,"end":14576.803,"text":"第2案OK嗎?OKOK謝謝然後就沒有意見通過第7案"},{"start":14578.322,"end":14601.838,"text":"第7案的部分的話是不是可以容委員這邊允許我們是啟動研議作業因為干帳基本上面他有再生能力所以放寬這邊產生的倫理疑慮比較小甚至一個人只有兩顆因為一個人只有兩顆的狀況下面的時候就要放寬殷勤這部分可能會有交易假結婚的這些倫理上面的考量"},{"start":14602.719,"end":14629.509,"text":"研議這邊其實是可以啟動我們啟動研議那要把修正作業刪除對研議作業這邊但是我會提實際上也是因為這些病友團體他們就是陳情有這個需求因為他們很年輕嘛二三十歲要洗腎一輩子但其實他們只要有腎臟移植的話他們可以跟一般人一樣出國旅遊他們現在都整個人生有六七十年在洗腎"},{"start":14630.663,"end":14659.015,"text":"有,因為這個其實在契捐中心這邊也有收到那個相同的那個協會這邊有來文所以我們其實本來就預備就實施說要做一些溝通因為這一個肝臟就是有再生能力的這一塊所以他在規範上面稍微比較放寬陰莖的這部分的倫理考量比較少然後腎臟因為就如同我剛才講一個人只有兩顆的狀況下面的時候那給了給了"},{"start":14659.975,"end":14661.336,"text":"為什麼會有這樣子陳情也是實際上他們"},{"start":14684.512,"end":14695.56,"text":"是有這個需求所以我覺得我們可以改成一個月內研議那也可以參考這個世界各國的標準那把修正作業刪除謝謝就是一個月內啟動研議那修正這邊就拿掉啟動研議作業嘛對不對是這樣嘛好那這樣通過"},{"start":14709.645,"end":14711.608,"text":"好 現在我們休息20分鐘 請做討論"},{"start":14722.617,"end":14747.857,"text":"跟那個委員會議報告就125就是有關我們調查報告要不要公布的這個部分我以一個議事單位我在這邊稍微做一個說明第一個就是說沒有我馬上就好OK現在是這樣子當初這個霸凌案件會不會成立霸凌"},{"start":14752.467,"end":14772.435,"text":"請給我兩分鐘就好在霸凌案件這個事件我們會認定的時候是根據提供的事證不管是媒體或是委員或是這個部長像第一個是事證第二個是同仁的約談那同仁的約談跟高安委"},{"start":14773.436,"end":14793.636,"text":"剛剛委員也看到了大概平均每個當事人都有接近10人次的那個月而且這是非常深度的約談我今天如果把調查報告公佈出來的話同仁當初來的時候他希望是利民因為是利民所以他講的案件是非常的深入"},{"start":14794.477,"end":14808.698,"text":"包括 what kind of situation he is in, 包括他是在什麼樣的情境下遭受到一些管理的行為。再加上他目前的身心狀況是怎麼樣。如果我再怎麼樣去匿名化。"},{"start":14809.719,"end":14830.378,"text":"其實按圖所譯都可以在蛛絲馬跡中現有的同仁還是會受到一些驚恐所以我們是認為說在這些深度的我們的調查報告確實是不宜公佈但是而且我們也怕一公佈比照勞動部的規格就可以了"},{"start":14836.424,"end":14850.221,"text":"而勞動部當時的第二個報告他其實第一份報告也上去了只是說他的解讀沒有那麼多事實他解讀都不相關但是他還是把資料完整的上去了不要是重啟整個判斷就完全不一樣從不相關變成直接相關"},{"start":14852.516,"end":14874.494,"text":"沒關係 我本身現在只是在想說同仁在約談的那個過程中確實是有這樣的那個心聲那其實這次的調查報告有很多就是根據同仁的約談而且現在大部分的同仁都還在部裡面部裡面服務我以上先做這樣子的說明謝謝"},{"start":14881.513,"end":14906.702,"text":"主席我們要投票要表決要表決名字都可以遮起來這個比照勞動部的規格去各自啊這個報告一個A4新聞稿子跟這個報告根本業務報告啊今天根本不是調查結果報告是業務報告啊"},{"start":14911.343,"end":14912.445,"text":"我相信委員已經跟我們一樣是希望就是說來保護同仁"},{"start":14927.066,"end":14948.343,"text":"我相信一定都是這樣的一個心理那整個這個過程我想這一個確實好不容易其實大家都已經有這個信賴我覺得如果說就因為這樣來中斷這樣的一個信任真的我想對老師說你們不給看然後又都說沒事都沒事但是我一直提出心事這樣給你剛剛那部長有說啊就是委員你剛剛有提到另外的那個部分我們"},{"start":14955.779,"end":14983.224,"text":"你為什麼不這次就把它做好了呢?把個資蓋掉你不會不懂吧?把個資蓋掉到底這個被控制辦事做了什麼事?講了什麼話?報告委員這不是只有個資蓋掉的問題而已這裡面其實還有牽涉到就是說你現在目前到底是在認知哪個單位跟這些其實確實很容易被人家暗圖所記而我想就是說我們不希望透過這樣一個結果讓同仁也再受到二次傷害"},{"start":14985.305,"end":15006.232,"text":"你剛剛講說這個親生事件是這個不見樂意不樂見操作你就傷害了這個死者家屬你就二度傷害了他們報告委員我想我們這個他是跟我有聯繫的如果哪一天我再到你面前呢對如果說有這一個所謂的新事實新證據的話就這一個部分我們當然可以來那個啊"},{"start":15010.543,"end":15033.483,"text":"但是我必須要強調 報告委員我真的要強調一點就是說這個是整個同仁他們願意來老實說我們我作為這個主席其實事實上我對同仁也有這一個有保護的義務啦他們都不願意匿名那你現在在這種情況之下他們都希望匿名來勇敢站出來我覺得"},{"start":15034.943,"end":15038.185,"text":"我必須要先說一下因為同仁反壇真的講得很深入他把什麼樣在處理的行為中間都那個言重你結果你的判決這麼輕"},{"start":15065.038,"end":15071.635,"text":"結果你的結果很輕啊都輕輕帶過都沒事啊沒有就是中整所有的必要的那你們越講就越離譜啦"},{"start":15073.735,"end":15100.373,"text":"那麼深入然後有很多不可以講的然後最後結果你們的調查結果我真的要誤中但是也誤枉我覺得這個真的要我覺得這個前提表決表決我想因為我當過立委我知道立委都是有義務去了解內情而且大家都是德高望重也會知所輕重影像質感丟給立委怎麼辦"},{"start":15101.333,"end":15129.17,"text":"我意思是說還是在野黨的立委沒有現在這樣因為他們很擔心是我們完全的把識別化盡量識別的好一點然後送給委員這樣子去掉一些然後送給委員委員你很清楚這判斷適不適合因為你如果真的對整個大幅公告可能真的有很多暗圖捨棄這個部分那我相信委員都是能夠去判斷你要做"},{"start":15130.445,"end":15159.304,"text":"你們保護被霸凌者所以我的建議如果你們看了以後還不滿意那再下一次再來再要求我們都樂意部長你的意思就是說你處理一下然後你們會把資料給我們看對嗎我建議我們建議每一個送到委員的辦公室我們就親自我們會把這個送到每一個委員的辦公室最好我們親自再去報告或者你們有什麼疑問都可以當場討論我就先在每一個委員的辦公室先處理"},{"start":15160.625,"end":15181.827,"text":"那應該你就可以看到所有的詳情但是你們就會去判斷啊這要怎麼處理還到那個受訪者 這樣我們就我們比較謹慎的那如果第二部你們第二階段如果你還是覺得這樣還是需要怎麼樣的話那我們再來怎麼做下一步都沒關係好不好那至於102人到109人那件事情"},{"start":15182.668,"end":15211.16,"text":"我個人 如果 那這另外我們來調查沒關係涉及人命的是真的要證實那好好來立案來立案調查好不好家屬在期待沒關係我們家屬只要有期待家屬不敢找你們只敢找我們沒關係我想我也是一個醫療人員我是我們一定是關心弱勢或者是受害者我根本心跟你是一樣的所以這個部分我們另外重啟調查來調查好不好然後這一個部分我們"},{"start":15212.16,"end":15229.757,"text":"從此調查是在台北業務組的那段時間有多少離職的降調的那些都是徹底去調查都沒關係因為我覺得這樣如果家屬只有需要這樣調查是他心安我們就做到這是102到109這個過程因為那個紀元在109年離"},{"start":15235.943,"end":15247.007,"text":"離世之前,其實一直都是在請假,因為他的長官也叫他不要上班,比較好,其實是這樣,但是我現在講的只是說沒關係,這個我們來調查,然後我們這個調查報告去世沒話以後,三天以後就開始到各個委員辦公室去報告"},{"start":15260.251,"end":15281.166,"text":"那你們再去判斷要不要走下一步或者是覺得這樣子的處罰這樣的處理就已經得當了那我想這樣才有辦法保護大家而且說實在的啦我們認得就像我高中練三年只有一次因為有人要來我家買東西我慢了十分鐘出去"},{"start":15282.168,"end":15292.68,"text":"我就全情的全情講就沒有了我到一生都覺得很遺憾所以做了三十幾年的公務員委員被寄深屆一生為國家在努力齁"},{"start":15294.153,"end":15321.865,"text":"有時候我們誤中誤完其實也是記過或者是記一個那個在對一個很努力的工作人員是已經非常大的一個紀錄了啦都是終身的紀錄啦你即使後面再記功記什麼他就是被記過過他就是被記過深切所以我們要好好的來思考怎麼樣做最適當讓我們的每一位同仁從基層到主管都能夠好好的為國家做事情"},{"start":15323.226,"end":15335.396,"text":"所以我的建議就是這樣子,不曉得各位委員能不能接受我們先按照部長你講的這個方式先進行,如果不滿意的話我們還是要提案一定要說明到大家滿意按照部長的指示,我們就是由同仁侵蝕我們這一個去識別化到有提案的委員這邊來進行報告"},{"start":15348.407,"end":15375.701,"text":"另外就是我們認為不足的部分,因為明代的證據永遠比你們多,就這樣,因為他不敢,他怕你秋後...如果那些證據是超越我們調查的內容,就算新市政府,我們再加進去再調查,好不好?我們這個調查角度還是存在啊,我們會存在,繼續調查,調查到水後石出。說實在,我想大家都是很願意接受考驗的啦,因為大家都為國家立法而已嘛。"},{"start":15378.789,"end":15392.585,"text":"部長那在慎重起見齁你這個八個案子你還是自己內部再重啓調查一次吧部長我們一直都正確調查其實剛剛劉建國委員也對於這件事情質詢非常久好像不是有提案的委員而已吧"},{"start":15393.325,"end":15418.832,"text":"因為大家急著要看報告所以先幾天之內先送給大家看報告齁如果覺得還是不滿意那再走下一步啦好不好不然的話沒關係齁所有委員都可以好沒問題都沒問題我想不管是哪一黨的委員應該都很關心所以我們一定去說明如果說明到各位覺得說新的施政是你無法cover的"},{"start":15419.805,"end":15433.134,"text":"部長我先確認一下剛剛這樣決議的話是要全部未還的委員給還是今天非未還給全部未還的委員給那也要再確定因為剛剛你們有提到那個調查的時候很多"},{"start":15435.015,"end":15463.797,"text":"公共體系的人事實上如金公之鳥也要確保真的如果要有密件出來的話也請大家刻尊遵守要用密件不得在外偷走否則的話事實上我相信因為我以前也擔任過調查委員有時候對於他們願意站出來去舉報去說明的時候同時他也是承擔了很大的心理壓力可是當如果你們只是去各自有些脈絡是沒有辦法去的話有時候搞不好又我們是不是又製造另外一場傷害"},{"start":15464.718,"end":15464.739,"text":"報告。"},{"start":15465.959,"end":15491.684,"text":"所以我想我們就要親自到委員辦公室那我相信委員就好像我們當時我當立委的時候其實也有很多這種狀況阿都去各處我們去看說實在連copy都不連copy都沒辦法copy我們只是記在腦海裡面這樣子那所以先這樣處理如果大家覺得有需要走第二步那隨時或者是整個證據超過了我們cover的範圍我們再繼續來調查好不好"},{"start":15501.724,"end":15525.364,"text":"他們的調查報告有好幾十頁然後是我們是要求要交給提案委員不要給助理啦因為助理又怕洩漏出去怕對公職人員這些人又這些工人又造成二次傷害我希望做到來來來你叫人事處長這樣蓋"},{"start":15527.697,"end":15544.395,"text":"原為建立基層部署願意坦言真話保障其權益之調查方式與機制針對遭檢舉涉案霸凌之各級主管兩位司長等"},{"start":15547.604,"end":15571.05,"text":"請二部去世白話後一週內侵持調查報告向提案委員報告說明三個案都一樣要給全部的慰安委員一個一個報告你要講好勒"},{"start":15573.928,"end":15583.552,"text":"好啦一週應該可以啦齁十五個喔好"},{"start":15598.983,"end":15619.434,"text":"對沒錯好啦那就兩週啦兩週來來來兩週內侵蝕調查報告向衛防委員衛防委員會的委員報告本人本人不要不要給助理啦不要啦這樣不好"},{"start":15621.551,"end":15644.176,"text":"現在可以嗎?陳教授委員就盡量挪出時間給我陳教授委員可以嗎?陳教授委員這樣可以嗎?好 那就三個案都照這樣處理好 那現在改一下喔 改一下齁好 臨時提案全部處理完畢齁那我們現在休息現在吃飯吃一半"},{"start":15654.042,"end":15656.964,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15677.551,"end":15694.684,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":16731.089,"end":16749.035,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,我們節省時間本委員會的也要縮短時間啦王毓民委員質詢好,謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長委員好"},{"start":16756.789,"end":16776.556,"text":"部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程"},{"start":16777.896,"end":16795.208,"text":"也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情"},{"start":16796.289,"end":16824.708,"text":"你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周吉仁或處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘"},{"start":16826.483,"end":16854.605,"text":"這是一才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢"},{"start":16856.158,"end":16870.713,"text":"最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講應該是大概15到30分鐘而且還有"},{"start":16873.863,"end":16897.24,"text":"委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我要問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情"},{"start":16897.74,"end":16921.489,"text":"所以那個調查的過程你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去載明"},{"start":16922.549,"end":16928.314,"text":"不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成"},{"start":16942.546,"end":16948.713,"text":"因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道"},{"start":16957.823,"end":16972.149,"text":"讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼寒產效應"},{"start":16973.223,"end":16988.031,"text":"就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣"},{"start":16989.071,"end":17009.167,"text":"但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始"},{"start":17011.989,"end":17037.311,"text":"因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱"},{"start":17039.315,"end":17062.071,"text":"但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症"},{"start":17065.731,"end":17084.105,"text":"因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎?這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎?我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎?"},{"start":17089.746,"end":17115.243,"text":"總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這一個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情"},{"start":17115.963,"end":17130.712,"text":"同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告"},{"start":17133.573,"end":17161.661,"text":"帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證"},{"start":17162.421,"end":17178.036,"text":"所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些"},{"start":17179.257,"end":17202.483,"text":"今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎"},{"start":17207.644,"end":17226.371,"text":"禮職的部分有嗎?短調的呢?有,還有另外一個就是說我們時間甚至已經利用到晚上還有假日我們也都讓委員也都有請委員拜託委員他們前來所以真的是每一個每分每秒我們都最善用最最大的這一個我要求的就是一定是要"},{"start":17227.151,"end":17240.278,"text":"符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌"},{"start":17256.368,"end":17268.964,"text":"然後用言語去叫人家輕聲的這個這個只有深屆兩支那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一支我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼"},{"start":17271.345,"end":17290.019,"text":"你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你你那個懲處的那個範圍?這個要你們自己有意見啊?"},{"start":17296.764,"end":17307.756,"text":"這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決。稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?"},{"start":17311.981,"end":17318.349,"text":"他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟學術專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審理"},{"start":17330.563,"end":17346.736,"text":"要記小過、要記深切、要不要大過、要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊"},{"start":17348.001,"end":17360.828,"text":"所以你說教人家輕聲的這種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指"},{"start":17364.67,"end":17382.83,"text":"市長讓我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間"},{"start":17384.915,"end":17405.445,"text":"也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那那是跟他原來的那個性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇"},{"start":17411.377,"end":17438.646,"text":"他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的"},{"start":17440.799,"end":17470.074,"text":"所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的不是去壓迫下面的員工的完全同意"},{"start":17470.114,"end":17491.326,"text":"所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌"},{"start":17492.967,"end":17514.102,"text":"還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反省我同意同意同意同意同意好"},{"start":17515.223,"end":17538.376,"text":"那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝"},{"start":17541.552,"end":17566.209,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝部長 來接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席喔主席不好意思先會議詢問一下今天那個衛福部來的官員長照司司長有來嗎"},{"start":17570.729,"end":17596.764,"text":"長照室司長有來嗎?司長請假請問主席有準嗎?所以現在是怎麼樣?行政部門報名單不管主席準不準只要你有報名單連主席都不知道就可以不用來我要先確定一下規矩嘛現在的規矩到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":17598.007,"end":17604.07,"text":"是我們委員會開會的時候行政部門只要報名單不用經過主席同意想不來就不來是這樣嗎社保司的司長有來嗎現在是代理司長所以現在的代理司長是本來的副司長嗎"},{"start":17628.922,"end":17655.121,"text":"那本來的市長勒?所以他先調理社保師?所以今天也不用來?那個我對主席很尊重啦只是有的時候主席你人太好啦你真的人太好他們也沒有經過你的同意說不來就不來我某個程度上也是幫主席打抱不平啦"},{"start":17656.842,"end":17668.924,"text":"我希望以後衛福部的是不是要準價是不是要先請問主席這個基本的態度應該要建立吧來有請部長"},{"start":17675.372,"end":17700.983,"text":"衛福部發聲霸凌案讓大家都很痛心早上執行的人非常的多我們先回顧一下當初賴清德總統也好卓榮泰院長也好跟台灣社會都做出了莊嚴的承諾甚至卓榮泰還說什麼卓榮泰說他要求各部門機關了解內部有沒有霸凌有一個月內完成調查"},{"start":17702.364,"end":17721.798,"text":"一個禮拜內完成調查,依法處理。左榮泰講的話算話嗎?請教部長。當然算話。當然算話。他要求的時限是多久?我們的確在一個禮拜當時的發生以後開始調查到一個禮拜我們有做"},{"start":17723.143,"end":17731.296,"text":"做什麼?初步的報告你們在做的時間上是卓榮泰搞不清楚狀況連人種"},{"start":17735.07,"end":17761.247,"text":"連人種那個處理的指引處理的時限有多少都搞不清楚當一個行政院院長做這種政治性的發言現行法規是一個禮拜嗎?現行法規如果不是一個禮拜那我把他當成是行政院院長對於行政院所屬機關內部的自我強化要求嗎?對啊阿現在這個內部的強化自我要求有做到嗎?"},{"start":17762.642,"end":17780.591,"text":"我公開問這個問題就好了啦是不是有做到大家去對時間嘛左榮泰講的話到底算不算話更可笑的是什麼結果你們結果出來了為什麼今天這麼多委員關心社會滑爛啦有關的有關職的主管的通通不成立沒有主管職的通通都成立"},{"start":17791.886,"end":17815.944,"text":"抓小放大部長這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎我們都是秉公處理、依法辦理沒有關係啦不要講官話我就直接請教你嘛你個人作為衛福部的部長這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎我們尊重調查小組尤其我們叫做外部專業調查委員他們的"},{"start":17819.825,"end":17832.319,"text":"當初前勞動部部長何佩珊也是這樣講的嘛作為一個部長要有擔當啊這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎那你就勇敢的拍胸脯說我非常滿意嘛"},{"start":17834.639,"end":17853.335,"text":"我想我那個尊重就是尊重調查委員的一個意見如果說有新的事證或者是我們再繼續來我具體請教啊上班時間要員工深蹲福利挺身這個是OK的嗎來請教部長"},{"start":17854.36,"end":17866.475,"text":"好 這個我回答好了 這個這件事情是發生在2022年12月的時候因為這個新進的同仁只有一次是不是他也只有一次其他都沒有了"},{"start":17867.825,"end":17889.201,"text":"只有這一次所以現在建築...等一下等一下等一下我們一樣一樣來嘛這位司長逼員工深蹲福利挺身依照你們目前調查的結果在他擔任司長的期間當中只有一次沒有別次了是不是這樣?是嗎?這樣子調查的結果部長你認可嗎?"},{"start":17895.738,"end":17916.605,"text":"為什麼我今天問師長為什麼沒有來自己的事情自己不敢面對喔如果調查這麼嚴謹這麼坦蕩蕩連來國會接受被選的勇氣都沒有還是你們整個衛福部幫他擋在前面只有一次只有一次所以呢 來來來"},{"start":17922.898,"end":17927.692,"text":"其他在媒體上面建築的我現在直接看後面啦"},{"start":17932.469,"end":17958.612,"text":"有深蹲執行官深蹲聽訊深蹲姿勢不對聽短講聽到雙頭雙腿發抖會被糾正這全部都是不實爆料是嗎如果只有一次的話啦如果你們的調查結果是真的啊我只有一個結論啊現在建築跟外界投訴爆料的這些內容全部虛偽不實這是調查小組的結論嗎"},{"start":17962.931,"end":17977.363,"text":"非常感謝黃國昌委員對本案的關心跟垂詢客氣的話不用講直接回答問題就好了啦就是有關福利挺身就是一次所以這些爆料全部都不止福利挺身一次深蹲幾次深蹲的話是從2022年從這個2024年大約五月的時候開始總共有幾次"},{"start":17985.59,"end":18007.537,"text":"他們就是我們平常都會有那個就有健康操時間嘛然後是以這個就是說鼓勵大家的方所以用鼓勵的方式同仁都很高興樂於接受鼓勵是這樣嗎我們現在目前依我們訪談這裡面總共有14個案子裡面有13位他們可以理解但是確實有一位心境同仁他覺得就是說這個"},{"start":18009.317,"end":18029.562,"text":"他覺得不習慣十三位可以理解是真的可以理解嗎所以我跟委員報告就是所以現在建出在報章媒體上面的爆料全部都是只有一個人抱怨其他的人都覺得很OK是這樣嗎對所以我們也因為這樣老實說我也覺得就是說這個市長這樣齁是整個這個管理上面現在把規矩講清楚就好了啦對沒錯把規矩講清楚就好了啦沒錯"},{"start":18032.883,"end":18042.449,"text":"長官可以要求暑假深蹲福利挺身嗎?可以還是不可以?絕對不可以。絕對不可以嘛。來出來。來來來來來來。我們一樣一樣講清楚啊。那你們在裡面的報告講什麼?講說啊是用鼓勵的方式一起運動。調查小組認定沒有強迫。這個結論部長你滿意嗎?包委員。對不起我請問部長。部長這個結論你滿意嗎?"},{"start":18063.472,"end":18065.853,"text":"我覺得如果有運動時間應該要尊重尊重每一個同仁他們自有的一個活動方式"},{"start":18093.467,"end":18116.945,"text":"所以如果有任何的強迫去做特定的或者太超過那你覺得司長都這樣下令了同仁有沒有覺得被強迫還有深蹲執行官喔部長我跟你交換一個意見我們將心比心今天我們立委監督行政部門幫我們基層的公務員發聲"},{"start":18119.448,"end":18147.853,"text":"我們將心比心我今天如果在質詢的時候我請你深蹲我請你福利挺身你一定會覺得這個立委一點道理都沒有濫用職權憑什麼要你深蹲憑什麼要你福利挺身我們將心比心我相信這樣子講部長應該可以認同嘛當然當然當然嘛那每一個人都是一樣嘛衛福部有司長官威很大"},{"start":18149.449,"end":18172.681,"text":"還有深蹲執行官喔結果大家為什麼對你們衛福部的調查報告意見這麼強烈你看嘛第一個調查報告全文不敢提供給立法院說是要保護同仁你們在討論臨時提案的時候我人雖然沒在現場我都透過我們院內的視訊"},{"start":18174.878,"end":18187.564,"text":"在看你們討論其中的理由是什麼啊怕同人有心理壓力怕暗圖寄索去找到那個同人那我現在就有個問題啊找到那個同人然後呢他會被誰壓迫"},{"start":18189.38,"end":18212.696,"text":"他會被誰秋後算帳?如果按照你們今天調查報告的結論這些主管職每一個人繼續當主管都沒有問題那代表了什麼?代表你們今天部長幫這些主管背書嘛他們繼續當主管絕對不會有秋後算帳絕對不會繼續霸凌同仁"},{"start":18214.707,"end":18224.916,"text":"你們調查報告的結論跟整個台灣社會講的就是這件事嘛他們可以繼續當主管我部長背書OK沒有問題啊如果是這樣子的話怎麼會有人擔心還會會被缺貨算帳連你們自己都沒信心了嘛所以才不敢公布調查報告嘛部長我有沒有講錯"},{"start":18239.554,"end":18264.973,"text":"報告委員我想我們去識別化以後今天的結論我們會去每一個未還的委員那非未還的委員呢如果有要求我們也會去報告好那我現在要求來報告可以嗎沒問題順便講清楚啊沒問題你們的標準怎麼跟勞動部差這麼多啊勞動部的謝宜龍是叫大家跑步啊勞動部的調查報告啊認為不可以這樣做啊沒有擦肢抹粉啊"},{"start":18269,"end":18274.826,"text":"結果你們衛福部的報告標準很特殊喔鼓勵啊鼓勵同仁運動啊部長會不會覺得你們衛福部的標準太寬啊我想這個都是調查委員專業的一個認定真的喔這樣子的認定你覺得很專業喔所以是勞動部那邊的不專業就對了是嗎"},{"start":18293.171,"end":18296.612,"text":"整個政府機關可以有不一樣的標準喔來 我請教部長你在一個工作環境裡師長三不五時就要大家練深蹲啊"},{"start":18316.732,"end":18345.029,"text":"阿你覺得這個工作環境好不好如果是在必要就是說健康的時間如果是在必要在健康的時間吶吼那有有要帶著大家運動那是一回事那如果強迫做比較比較大家超越體力吼或是不喜歡的市長都開口了下面的人趕不照著做當然這個就是不用擔心考記喔行政失當不用擔心升遷喔不用擔心在長官面前有沒有關愛的眼神喔"},{"start":18347.472,"end":18361.267,"text":"公務體系的邏輯是這樣嗎當然委員的考量我都支持我都了解今天有很多委員針對這件事情提出質詢我相信部長感受很強烈"},{"start":18362.441,"end":18388.602,"text":"大家對於衛福部這種關關相互的態度啊是沒有辦法接受的是沒有辦法接受的我們絕對不會去關關相互是不是有關關相互是不是有關關相互社會上有社會上的評價嘛我們絕對不會去關關我保證絕對不會關關相互做出來的結果做出來的結果就這樣啊啊你現在的說辭跟前勞動部部長有什麼差別"},{"start":18390.123,"end":18398.37,"text":"當初前勞洛部長不是說我們尊重專業小組尊重外聘委員結果勒?結果勒?我想沒關係我們的調查報告都可以經過大家來考驗可以經過大家考驗就公開嘛那就我們第一個階段先跟各位委員報告不管是未完的或者是希望來了解我這樣講啦"},{"start":18417.83,"end":18441.462,"text":"我們到時候你們來說明的時候所有接到的投訴所有看到的檢舉我們一樣一樣做事實查核我們一樣一樣做事實查核如果裡面有調查小組該認定沒有認定該考慮沒有考慮該考慮沒有考慮被具體抓出來的話部長承諾重啟調查可不可以做到"},{"start":18442.691,"end":18467.171,"text":"你如果這麼有信心就不用擔心被檢驗嘛到時候來我辦公室說明的時候我一樣一樣對啊有該處理沒有處理該考慮沒考慮就重啓調查可不可以承諾如果有新的市政或者是不用新的市政嘛既有的市政沒有考慮就應該重啓調查了不是嗎是吧如果有多的補強的政績我們願意繼續來調查OK好謝謝"},{"start":18473.1,"end":18501.177,"text":"好,謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。鄭天才委員,資訊。主席,有請部長。委員好。部長辛苦了。謝謝。這個衛福部"},{"start":18502.842,"end":18525.796,"text":"是要對人民、弱勢者、個人、兒少、家庭你們有保護師、照顧師、心理健康師社會工作師然後發生這樣的一個霸凌的事情真的是"},{"start":18529.116,"end":18557.859,"text":"所以我們應該要衛福部的標準這個次長衛福部的標準要比一般的部會要更強化那個標準要更嚴謹更嚴格所以除了衛福部這個工作人員、員工、公務員的部分之外我們看這個社工"},{"start":18559.355,"end":18584.893,"text":"超過八成的社工遇到職場霸凌言語霸凌你現在看言語職位社會霸凌的比例這麼高那怎麼樣我們怎麼有期待怎麼會能夠安心的說女人的社工整個社工體系能夠對"},{"start":18587.333,"end":18610.609,"text":"個人、家庭、兒少、老人各方面的尤其是有心靈需要去協助的所以真的是要去好好的除了這個衛福部的公務人員的一個職場霸凌要絕對要避免之外那社工然後他是第一線的人"},{"start":18611.818,"end":18636.8,"text":"所以更是需要去加強部長這個部分尤其是我們社工司我們蘇司長這個部分確實是一個需要去加強的地方這更是第一線直接對人民影響的部分所以這個部分來做這樣的一個免利我們看這個"},{"start":18639.709,"end":18665.174,"text":"這個文件站長照師文件站總共現在原住民的文件站已經有519站沿鄉425站都會期94站這個都是從長照基金裡面來來自印那總共如果我們以沿鄉部落的話425站距離我們"},{"start":18668.663,"end":18688.872,"text":"的部落總共有740個部落就是還差很多還要增加很多的文件站那就都會期而言都會期現在94站那我們原住民的人口已經有一半以上在都會期了50.96%在都會期居住所以這個"},{"start":18695.478,"end":18712.223,"text":"延續民主的文化健康戰需要去加強要加強的方式很簡單就是要增加經費給人民會從長照基金我們看這個長照基金114年度114年度的預算跟這個113年度的預算"},{"start":18723.074,"end":18749.513,"text":"長照基金增加了五十億八千五百七十萬七千元而原住民的文化健康站的預算只增加一億這個比例這差這高對不對比例增加你增加了五十億八千多萬然後原住民的文件站在長照基金裡面只增加一億"},{"start":18751.19,"end":18758.259,"text":"所以這個部分可以從其他的經費...會不會請常委跟您報告一下?好,請。"},{"start":18760.29,"end":18783.483,"text":"主席跟委員好那有關於文化健康站的這個部件的確我們也非常的重視跟支持那長照基金這邊也都會有挹注相關的經費那我們現在大概都是人民會話他會提送相關的一些經費需求跟他的一些計畫來部裡面這邊我們會做經費相關的一些合撥那所以後續如果還是有這樣的需求部長這個我來說齁"},{"start":18785.063,"end":18812.019,"text":"事實上人民會每一次提報的他是這樣你給我多少錢我就只能做這麼多事實上申請文件站的那個團體很多但是因為你只給他這麼多的錢所以他就只合這麼多是這樣所以所以剛才這個副市長嘛所以你剛提到"},{"start":18813.946,"end":18830.971,"text":"員民會是報的少,是不是?你的意思?應該是說,員民會他還是會去規劃就是要在哪一些地方去做文件站的一個部件,然後來提相關的計畫。好,這個那你們可以請員民會說需求多少?"},{"start":18832.765,"end":18856.531,"text":"需求多少我可以增加這樣的經費因為你現在預算給他這麼多就已經框在那邊了所以他就只做這麼多所以這個部分這個希望我想這個部分我們去了解一下不要說先框著那就無法照顧到整個需求了應該是以需求為導向這樣"},{"start":18857.971,"end":18881.476,"text":"所以這個部分要請這個衛福部能夠多多協助來溝通一下另外本席在9月就發文有關文化健康站的造福源還有儲供的薪資要比照軍公教調高調薪3%這個部分已經現在"},{"start":18887.862,"end":18911.721,"text":"馬上一頁就要到啦,到底要不要加薪?比照啊,就是比照中共叫啊。可以嗎?部長。沒關係,我們有在處理啦。那看長照書你講一下。好。是。那針對這個部分的調薪,現在我們部裡面有在做一些討論演繹,那我們會盡快做一個回覆。太久了吧。你們已經演繹最起碼"},{"start":18914.44,"end":18925.825,"text":"兩、三個月了一直說演藝中、演藝中、簽合中一開始我還收到你們的簽合中簽合中還簽那麼久莫非部長還是次長一直把他壓著"},{"start":18927.35,"end":18955.363,"text":"報告委員那因為這個部分其實也涉及到說我們也會整體來看說會不會影響到說其他據點的部分相關民間單位他聘用員工的一些薪資的部分那我們整體其實一起去做一個考量所以不是簽合中嗎所以你們還在承辦人的手上沒有沒有我們其實已經整體做過一些相關的評估那現在也是在部裡面我們做相關的一個程序做討論所以什麼時候會有結果"},{"start":18959.637,"end":18973.373,"text":"無法回答我們盡快因為聽這樣就是說動一法千神聲就是擔心這樣子我想不然的話應該要挑就要挑嘛那挑的話是不是其他的那個"},{"start":18974.916,"end":18998.225,"text":"其他單位也會有相同的一個效應可能他們在評估當然都要都要那都要的話當然就會有預算方面預算沒問題這次增加50億多了好不好好哦我想我們明年度增加50億多的長照基金我想這個文化健康站這個招委員這個雛光應該是我們要關心的好好"},{"start":19001.274,"end":19002.375,"text":"謝謝英明的召集人"},{"start":19031.817,"end":19033.297,"text":"我們請部長。部長,延續剛剛的議題,文化、健康、站、造福源跟儲供,其實這個你應該可以很放心的"},{"start":19052.154,"end":19068.54,"text":"來答應因為尤其我們在城市中的城市還是有很多人需要照顧所以如果說依照這個比例3%這個在我們整個的通盤來講這個是完全必須的"},{"start":19069.62,"end":19087.125,"text":"所以你剛才還是沒有辦法很直接的回答你所謂盡快盡快盡快那你總是要有一個day night時間點在哪裡讓人家有所準備跟依歸可就可不可就不可你要盡快盡快盡快快快快快到什麼時候"},{"start":19088.223,"end":19103.174,"text":"好多久時間告訴人家嘛對不對我想最重要的考慮點是怎麼樣我想不管考慮怎麼樣你總是有一個時間點可以應許給人家現在沒有沒有要求你說加"},{"start":19104.295,"end":19123.745,"text":"或不加加加幾趴沒有這樣子只告訴我們充分的給你們研議那什麼時候可以告訴人家嗎現在是12月底中啊對啊現在已經12月中了嘛對啊12月底好了市長在對不對你要告訴人家嘛這樣大概這樣子沒有答案不行啊"},{"start":19124.505,"end":19129.208,"text":"多久時間?請告訴我們時間因為現在這個裡面真的像部長剛剛說的是簽一法動全身剛剛部長說要回答12月底我們這個要做總體的一個很不幸的考量我們會趕快來一個快快快一個趕快你加一個趕"},{"start":19145.518,"end":19156.885,"text":"那到底你告訴我們時間沒關係你告訴我時間這個真的是牽一髮動全身齁牽一髮動全身你告訴我時間啦沒關係啦謹慎來衡量啦謹慎來衡量我請問我們什麼時候可以得到答案報告委員我們會謹慎來衡量啊本來是快快快趕快現在謹慎很多沒關係你應該要有來部長你請回答部長"},{"start":19173.24,"end":19197.591,"text":"我們大家理性討論但是你還要一個時間因為一再講再講完全沒有一個時間點我們如果只要求時間點都要求都聽不到那我們接下來怎麼諮詢沒關係我們那個可以或不可以啊不可以是什麼原因對啊對啊你有當過民意代表你就知道背景的訴求我想我們在首頁底來把這個答案先呈現"},{"start":19198.371,"end":19216.419,"text":"好,謝謝部長,12月底我們等著看,等著聽,文化健康站、照護員以及廚工是不是要加薪,給我們一個答案方向,要加或者是不加,對不對?好,謝謝部長,來接下來部長我要跟你討論霸凌的事情,事主袁紹"},{"start":19217.748,"end":19236.472,"text":"那你這次的調查報告呢就好像繼續放火你的八件裡頭只有三件成立而且都是非主管的在處分那麼司長級的都輕輕放過在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教是不是在重點霸凌這個霸凌文化基層的公務人員要繼續來煎熬"},{"start":19245.546,"end":19250.552,"text":"我相信你絕對沒有那個心所以本席要求你公佈調查報告因為不斷的資訊在你的報告當中根本是沒有的所以你要重啟調查一一來說明否則我看社會大眾跟國會都沒有辦法接受欸"},{"start":19263.735,"end":19266.657,"text":"部長您的看法呢?本期贊同!贊同這個方向!你們剛剛有做決議!那本期要了解!"},{"start":19287.975,"end":19294.219,"text":"然後就到委員辦公室報告我們一定要好好的保護需要被保護的人嘛當然當然部長這個錄音帶都已經被揭露了我相信你聽過了你們必須要先自殺你等人人家來他殺你要先自殺你一定要先表示你的誠意啊還有一個要自殺還要先表示誠意的"},{"start":19314.968,"end":19339.36,"text":"這些調查的結果是說什麼?不當的比喻,尚不構成霸凌。這種話都講得出來。部長,沒有辦法想像我們的居城員工、居城人員他身心靈多麼煎熬。如果是你的家人還是你的小孩,碰到這樣的主管,你會認為他不是霸凌嗎?請做說明。"},{"start":19342.795,"end":19368.547,"text":"我想這個用詞是的確非常不適當那但是據我據了解齁那個當時是在講一個案件如果你不好好的自己意思說自己把它弄好你就是等別人來去報告的時候會被別人來修理嘛所以他的用詞是比較極端你認為是極端的用詞怎麼不可長官不可能叫人家去自殺他殺這件事情所以你的錄音帶"},{"start":19369.927,"end":19372.129,"text":"他的影音呈現是如此叫人家自殺還要先表示誠意這是哪門子的說法"},{"start":19379.118,"end":19400.107,"text":"所以資訊越來越多部長資訊越來越多你應該要把這個調查好好的調查清楚本期剛剛在聽到你的答詢當中你站起來說在處理臨時提案的時候你站起來說該調查的要調查要調查的水落石出這是你說的嘛對不對"},{"start":19401.948,"end":19426.603,"text":"一定要好好查清楚,勿縱勿枉一定要查清楚接下來本席要跟你討論你們的報告內容說這個霸凌申訴人必須要具名以言辭或書面提出行政院的霸凌平台也是這麼說也要具名所以本席要說要具名第一個要麼表示我們的行政能力盲恨無能"},{"start":19427.591,"end":19434.375,"text":"滿分無能連調查的能力都沒有啊第二個就是要準備敲算帳嘛你叫人聚名嘛由於寒蟬效應啊這樣的決定是誰決定的會不會有補充匿名者只要是能夠舉出事證跟他針對哪一個人我們就是一樣去調查也要調查嘛所以不需要聚名嘛是不是對啊我們這八案應該大部分都沒有聚名請問"},{"start":19457.189,"end":19481.863,"text":"您們不需要具名嗎?是不是?不需要具名的我們現在也都納入調查所以也是要具名?不用啊到底要不要具名?匿名的我們也調查那要不要具名?匿名的他就沒有具名了好,匿名的也調查當然最好是具名你們有沒有最好是具名所以就是要具名啊?那具名誰敢啊?不具名我們也調查"},{"start":19482.711,"end":19509.834,"text":"不具名的調查,但是你們也希望他們具名,是不是?因為行政平台,行政院的霸凌平台也就是要人家具名所以本席要告訴你這一次霸凌案之所以能夠在網路上面廣泛的討論就是因為它有匿名性才能夠被廣泛的討論讓媒體跟調查單位它可以有線索去查"},{"start":19510.655,"end":19530.706,"text":"甚至也有人發文啊他也有人發文說明確地說他在公務體系但是如果讓我具名我根本不敢出面舉證或者陳情對不對你也知道嘛你當過民運代表你也知道啊行政院也有說只要有媒體有報導或者信息相關細節我們都是要查要處理的"},{"start":19531.286,"end":19547.591,"text":"所以我們一個答案現在行政院的霸凌平台是要拒名我也告訴他們你們要改第二個我們現在可以確認你為何不雖然說希望拒名但是不拒名的、匿名的你們也會有舉證的對當然就是說你們這樣子的情況也要調查對不對這個要理清楚喔那你要去思考"},{"start":19560.194,"end":19587.879,"text":"到現在你婉轉的說如果是沒有匿名的但是有實際這個實際狀況者可尋者那你們都會調查那你要去考慮也要告訴行政院我衛福部都可以這麼做了幹嘛你行政院也要匿名啊行政院長有這樣指示啊行政院長有這樣指示可是他的霸凌平台是要具名那你要告訴他那個霸凌平台的具名要拿掉你跟他很好你告訴他"},{"start":19589.878,"end":19610.592,"text":"我想這個...因為講的跟做的文字是一樣啊!有些依法辦理以外我們會強化它的一個...那你要告訴行政院長啊,你跟他很好我知道你要告訴他,我們都可以匿名都可以接受,如果有實證都可以接受你要告訴他,不要我們行政院做的一套跟你做的又不一樣啊"},{"start":19611.837,"end":19617.658,"text":"但是我們現部會務部是只要有施政的有施政不需要具名就可以查我們確認這一點非常好因為我也可以理解公務單位是怕說爛樹爛茶打擊到無辜這個本性也可以了解但是我們有政府我們有政府的目的不就是為了可以查明真相嗎對不對"},{"start":19640.103,"end":19653.721,"text":"所以在這種情況之下需要被保護的人那需要被保護的人一定要保護他們這一定要的所以我本期要在這裡跟你說明現在你們認為要不要去修法要不要去修法"},{"start":19657.352,"end":19663.58,"text":"要不要去修法?修法因為目前霸凌的這個案子還沒有很明確的法所以經過了這麼痛苦的個案經過了這麼痛苦的個案我們應該可以專案去研擬"},{"start":19672.516,"end":19687.709,"text":"去組一個team去研擬到底這個認定是怎麼樣認定本市也不希望社會大眾一直質疑我們政府本市更不希望我們所有的公務人員有被霸凌而無處沒有申訴的管道"},{"start":19688.87,"end":19703.237,"text":"對不對你一直點頭你絕對認同本席的說法當然當然 對不對所以呢本席也希望也就是在這樣的一個情況之下我們是不是應該要應該要去來做修訂法律請教剛剛委員"},{"start":19705.168,"end":19709.272,"text":"對,剛剛委員所提的這樣的一個我們經過了經歷了這樣的慘痛的教訓對啊我們總要讓職場更好跟社會更好這個是我們會在權者方面來跟權者的機關你是組一個team嗎好好的去演繹讓大家可以放心來討論嘛也就是修訂那個法律可以讓所有的有權者"},{"start":19729.051,"end":19750.846,"text":"所以讓大家都能夠 讓工作者大家都能夠放心啦謝謝我這是我們一起鼓勵的目標 最少他是一個合組作用嘛 對不對一定要往這個方向吧 是好 所以去組一個team好好的去研擬好不好好 我們本身也會來衛福部那邊也會來精進那也會跟各個牽扯單位大家來互相研議好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊曉明委 謝謝部長"},{"start":19755.936,"end":19756.398,"text":"學習請盧建一委員"},{"start":19774.887,"end":19790.061,"text":"委員好部長好我們都是醫生那我想說衛福部這樣一個部門聽到衛福部這兩個字如果你是一個一般的年輕人他要考公務員然後他選擇我來衛福部的原因是什麼"},{"start":19791.28,"end":19818.692,"text":"是不是要去照顧人是不是要去處理所謂的心理健康啦或者是長期照顧啊或者是醫療這個部分結果到了醫療部門衛福部這個單位看到那麼多的霸凌案人家會怎麼年輕人會怎麼想那我還要來這裡幹什麼然後剛才現在的那個調查報告只有三個成立那麼多項不成立然後呢被處分的人都不是主管你有沒有想一個解決的方法"},{"start":19820.141,"end":19836.107,"text":"這幾天你有沒有想一個解決方法?我想還是跟委員報告這是我們調查消息裡面專家的一個專業的一個他們經過的那個問卷以及深入訪談的客觀證據還有他們依照法規這樣定出來的一個結論那其實"},{"start":19847.759,"end":19850.008,"text":"雖然有些可能沒有到達"},{"start":19851.588,"end":19879.473,"text":"職場的霸凌但是因為可能行政不當或者是沒有出領導不好不當也都有分別給他記過或申請我的意思是說有沒有可能是主管太想升官了一直想要講求績效然後都不管這些員工的生死或是感受那是不是也有一個基礎說如果你是當了師長或是當主管級兩年到四年輪掉一個單位不然如果這個他碰到一個科長是非常嚴謹然後"},{"start":19880.353,"end":19880.393,"text":"衛福部會計處"},{"start":19907.04,"end":19934.031,"text":"科長霸凌同仁先前被投訴的時候主計總處總推給衛福部會計處自己處理又是一個求援兼裁判的案子被霸凌者已超過數十人也未見正式立案調查主計總處跟衛福部會計處根本就是關關相護會計處長還以面談的名義找同仁聊天實際上是在抓投訴的人而不是去處理霸凌同仁的某某科長"},{"start":19935.251,"end":19956.588,"text":"我收到的這個裡面他是有具名的只是如果你們私底下找我會給你們是不是要等到我在衛福部衛福部到六樓會計處用生命做最沉重的控訴才要處理衛福部會計處至今仍沒有任何作為科長做出任何實質處分處長只是想著升官所以能拖就拖"},{"start":19958.339,"end":19984.093,"text":"等輿論過了再輪到其他的部會這樣就不用負多島部州的責任然後不願意傾聽同仁說的只願意相信鱷魚的眼淚這樣的一個處理態度這就是造成某某科長一而再再而三霸凌同仁不收斂的溫床會計處的長官就是共犯希望委員能救救我們徹底制止這種行為我的意思就是說我念了這篇我是看到我是非常驚訝"},{"start":19984.993,"end":19985.594,"text":"您可以通過這個方式來尋求協助嗎?"},{"start":20001.9,"end":20027.41,"text":"跟委員報告關於這個同仁他的投訴其實我們之前已經收過非常多個投訴那我們其實事實上也有特別去做處理那我們訪談同仁的目的其實不是在抓投訴者而是在了解是不是有霸凌的事實那在這樣子的情況之下我們都會再告訴同仁說請同仁如果確實認為這個科長有霸凌的事實請他尋正式的管道可以讓我們去做立案調查"},{"start":20028.17,"end":20050.363,"text":"到目前為止因為投訴的狀況非常的多我們為了要方便部裡面可以去做這個所謂的立案調查的這樣的事情還有就是說我們要確保我們目前在職的同仁他願意坦誠的去跟這個去陳述說他是不是真的有遭到霸凌這樣的情況所以我們現在已經先把這位科長先調離現職"},{"start":20051.784,"end":20053.986,"text":"我今天會特別提出來是這個原因這八個裡面立案調查的這個結果"},{"start":20067.146,"end":20091.568,"text":"主要就是因為他這份是匿名的投訴案件那還有就是說我們事實上我們也針對這個科長也做了一些必要的一些調整跟處理好謝謝那第二個就是我去我昨天在金門成立服務處那到金門其實最直接相關的當然就是金門醫院的問題所以昨天我到金門他們就直接給我陳情了就是我稍微念一下我的陳情書"},{"start":20093.731,"end":20102.853,"text":"好他說氣到不想隱藏了對就是金門醫院醫生們跟長官們動動你們的腦袋想一想一家地區醫院"},{"start":20103.847,"end":20123.786,"text":"一次要離職將近20位護理師到底是為什麼是因為醫生們不斷壓榨霸凌護理師對他就是霸凌就這樣子一直念下去也就是說他們認為他們被醫院霸凌然後造成一次離職20位護理師所以我希望衛福部這邊能夠做一個調查"},{"start":20124.968,"end":20136.328,"text":"應該他還有壓榨他們的留任獎金還有如果說你超過30分鐘不算加班的這樣的一個加班的情況是不是就他們所謂的不平齁請衛福部能不能立案調查"},{"start":20138.609,"end":20166.828,"text":"我們一定立案調查不曉得請執行長稍微報告一下跟委員報告這個金門醫院那歷年的這個護理人員的離職那111年大概18個那113年就是剛剛提到有13個那其實他的那個離職率這幾年其實都差不多都小於1%那跟委員特別來報告一下那離職率也都其實是在這個我們照護師的整個平台裡面"},{"start":20167.406,"end":20195.744,"text":"也都有這個明確的數據所以沒有像這邊所提到的這個20位這是第一個要特別說明的第二個因為就是說接門醫院因為是在離島偏鄉的醫院所以我們會有一個所謂臺北農總的IDS的計畫的醫師過去那當然這個部分都是一段期間可能是兩個月或是半年所以在這個部分裡面就是我們有責成接門醫院這裡要把這個所謂的資源的醫師這個部分要更多的教育"},{"start":20196.889,"end":20200.229,"text":"也請他們要好好的來善待我們的護理人員那這個部分"},{"start":20201.045,"end":20228.708,"text":"醫院這邊已經有處理有成立一個機制就是在醫師跟護理跟專科醫師這個專科護理師的這方面的工作的協調對工作這方面的界定還有需要有一個在釐清的部分那有關所謂的獎勵金或是說留任獎金那獎勵金我們瞭解其實金門醫院的獎勵金是沒有比過去少是有增加那留任獎金是縣府就是他們有一個就是離島"},{"start":20229.509,"end":20244.754,"text":"建設基金那過去都是由金門縣府這邊補助那但是因為這個離島的基金在這個部分因為經舊的關係比較少所以在這今年由縣府給金門醫院的這個所謂的這個基金的補助裡面減少大概有8折打8折"},{"start":20246.895,"end":20250.918,"text":"所以他們的感受覺得是有少所以這個部分我們還要再跟縣府這邊再來溝通一下"},{"start":20279.337,"end":20292.424,"text":"目前已經有立案調查,正在調查中。好,那我也是希望如果有調查結果,也跟本席報告。好,沒問題。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝盧委員,謝謝部長。吳春成,吳春成,吳春成委員不在。張祺凱,張祺凱,張祺凱委員不在。賴世寶,賴世寶,賴世寶委員不在。"},{"start":20307.301,"end":20316.824,"text":"王宏威、王宏威、王宏威委員不在。邱振鈞改書面質詢。吳立華、吳立華、吳立華委員在嗎?不在。葉延之、葉延之、葉延之委員不在。陳盈衝過來了。"},{"start":20361.51,"end":20374.462,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":20396.989,"end":20397.249,"text":"我來了"},{"start":20432.372,"end":20439.678,"text":"好,非常感謝召委的等待。然後我請那個部長先上來。"},{"start":20445.439,"end":20465.309,"text":"部長好那個我想要先請教一下因為10月9號的時候也有跟部長拜託說因為那個文件站跟那個巷弄長照站的照服員已經五年沒有調新了這個問題那希望說明年可以一起調整那當時部長也說會好好瞭解跟規劃那我要請教一下這個長照司了因為我"},{"start":20470.295,"end":20479.526,"text":"師長沒有副師長因為今年加薪4%嘛那明年加薪3%那衛福部有沒有跟你們說說你"},{"start":20481.75,"end":20504.135,"text":"復代條件就是說你必須要增加多少業務做多少績效之後才可以加薪啊這樣子算加薪嗎加薪應該是我們維持原來的業務量然後你有增加你的薪水那叫加薪嗎啊但是現在的加薪有沒有說你們要增加多少業務增加多少績效之後才可以加薪"},{"start":20505.742,"end":20508.043,"text":"我先報告委員,真的很敬佩委員為這個文件站大家的權益來爭取。這個部分的確我們在指示之下都有在詳細的演繹。這個演繹當中因為牽涉的有一些範圍。是不是我請長掃師跟委員報告?"},{"start":20527.88,"end":20549.39,"text":"剪短齁快速這樣是委員報告委員我們這個部分已經有整體在做評估那近期我們會盡快將相關的評估結果再跟委員做一個回覆報告但我這邊的重點是我剛剛講了一個概念喔加薪就是你原來的業務量然後增加了薪水叫加薪嘛那你如果增加了業務量然後還要增加績效的話那叫什麼這算加薪嗎有沒有這樣的附帶條件"},{"start":20555.441,"end":20574.775,"text":"或者你們現在不清楚因為我有聽到這樣的消息了解這個狀況我們會做整體的評估我知道你們要做整體評估但是我講的我們對於加薪的定義我想我們先在這裡釐清嘛有必須要增加業務量才可以加薪嗎如果說本來就是整體"},{"start":20578.278,"end":20593.407,"text":"增加業務量當然是理論上是應該要加薪那如果說大家都一定有一個制度是一定隨著物價所以怎麼樣再上場的話我想這個也應該都要考慮在內這樣子"},{"start":20595.233,"end":20618.742,"text":"好,那個我就做這個提醒,因為這種附帶條件很奇怪,因為我們這次的加薪是整體的。好,謝謝那那個常総司請回。那另外我想我們來看一個這個表啦,因為最近大家在討論這個霸凌調查的這個部分,既有深度又有廣度。那雖然我們不知道是部長是誰給你這樣子的一個深度跟廣度的標準,但是我們看一下"},{"start":20619.882,"end":20646.437,"text":"這個表因為這也是目前你們公布然後我們大家看到這個表我這樣放眼過去我唯一我沒有辦法理解就是說這個社工司檢認視察職場霸凌成立記過一次長照司司長不成立但他也記過一次一個成立一個不成立但是都記過一次這個是我們會有很多的疑問跑出來嘛"},{"start":20651.543,"end":20658.936,"text":"報告委員現在目前這個部分主要有兩個部分一個就是成立跟不成立"},{"start":20660.207,"end":20678.834,"text":"另外一個就是說有關情節輕重你成立成立的話就要符合這一個所謂一般我們有關於霸凌的一個相關的定義人總有給我們一個還有其實最主要我們參考那個各個法院的判例判例裡面大概有三個最主要要件第一個就是說你在職場當中用詮釋的這個方式發生在職場上面"},{"start":20682.295,"end":20712.295,"text":"閱讀議論"},{"start":20712.295,"end":20714.917,"text":"我是建議你們這樣子好不好因為你們給資料其實我們也沒有很完整的資料就看到這個表嘛"},{"start":20728.187,"end":20750.299,"text":"你這個表其實會讓我們有很多的質疑你這個表沒有寫好你又不講清楚懲處是什麼懲處所以就變成你們衛福部的調查就沒有公信力啊那衛福部調查衛福部就等於部長沒有公信力嗎所以我只是說你們這個表讓我們非常的疑惑那如果既然是那個你就把它寫清楚你那個表設計是不良的"},{"start":20751.26,"end":20760.162,"text":"好,我們有詳細的調查報告那氣勢沒話以後就要到委員的辦公室親自跟委員報告我們時間有限吼那個我我來"},{"start":20762.373,"end":20789.742,"text":"對我來直接我們就進入這個加熱菸的議題好了好那個2024年12月16日中午12點左右也就是今天我的助理呢負責這個加熱菸議題的助理呢從台北火車站回到正在回到我們立法院的路上這個好巧不巧呢我們就遇到了這個我們的假署長號"},{"start":20791.904,"end":20802.399,"text":"我想要請問因為他遇到那個角署長的時候角署長在路上跟我的助理這樣講我很早就想在路上遇到你了"},{"start":20803.581,"end":20820.036,"text":"他有面帶微笑但是這話聽起來很恐怖欸你們要找助理請問各位在找助理你們想要找每個委員的助理你們會在路上立法院以外的路上說我很早就想遇到你了嗎很想在路上遇到你了嗎你們會嗎會的舉手"},{"start":20823.176,"end":20851.514,"text":"獎項應該是賣吧助理很忙碌整天都關在立法院在研究室裡做研究怎麼會有人還是你們的這個假署長在那邊路上這樣子跟我們的助理講啊他又是剛好好死不死負責加熱菸議題的助理哇這這話聽起來不寒而栗欸還是我不知道啊是平常哪位你們你們哪位政務官或事務官會會遇到助理都會在路上這樣子講"},{"start":20854.737,"end":20872.451,"text":"還是還是還是他比較希望看到我的時候這句話是想對我講的我很早就想在路上遇到委員了等一下請吳署長去問他一下不是啊我可不可以請教一下那個正牌的吳署長你覺得這句話是什麼意思吼"},{"start":20874.932,"end":20901.783,"text":"我真的沒辦法讓他揣測他的想法但是我絕對不會這樣做而且我也覺得蠻恐怖的對嘛我是說一般正常的人都會覺得不寒而栗啊怎麼會這樣子問呢我只是想要告訴你們我這裡公開講我告訴你們我的加熱菸的這個質詢部分很精彩的部分都是我自己加上去的"},{"start":20903.337,"end":20926.805,"text":"如果很想遇到我我們幾乎最近因為立法院很忙我也幾乎都在研究室再辦我就在委員會所以如果想要遇到我的話我想在院區都會遇到那你若真遇不到我們下班之後可能也會在路上遇到我也歡迎你這樣子跟我講好不好那我想這個我要點出一點啦"},{"start":20928.038,"end":20946.525,"text":"就是說加熱煙這個它其實有一個好玩的數據在我們所有政府的這個稅收裡面唯一負成長的是什麼就是這一次止煙的這個煙稅它降低了1.6%部長你知道降低1.6%是多少錢可能3億"},{"start":20958.331,"end":20986.718,"text":"三億兩百四十二三億左右嘛吼好那雖然只是降了三億吼但是它就是有一個現象意思就是說我加熱煙即便被你們卡住遲遲沒有真正的開放即便修法通過它仍然沒有開放但是奇妙的是止煙的這個煙水它還是降低的這代表什麼"},{"start":20987.95,"end":21008.787,"text":"就代表這個就是一個市場的需求他們就還是會去偷抽嘛我上次不是跟你比了嗎上看下看左看右看那個抓不到的百億的稅都在這裡啊所以你們卡那個是沒有意思的你們卡到了只是真的只是政府的稅收你們再怎麼卡都不會增加那個只淹淹稅的稅收啦"},{"start":21011.835,"end":21014.237,"text":"我覺得每一個議題都是真的議題"},{"start":21035.97,"end":21059.57,"text":"都是要好好的來研議那加熱因的部分的審查其實我們也請健康署一直國健署其實是一直在協助相關的輔導啦我想今天我要點出我每次上來講到加熱因我都點出重要的數據上次是那個百億齁那這一次我點出1.6%淹稅下降"},{"start":21064.414,"end":21089.043,"text":"加熱煙沒有開放但煙稅、紫煙煙稅是下降的這個數據給你們參考它背後的意義表示什麼那就是說現在就是說因為我還想請教就是說煙害這個煙害防治的工作到底是國民健康署的工作還是這個煙害防治基金的這個工作還是它是這個煙害防治策進會的業務因為"},{"start":21092.233,"end":21119.996,"text":"因為主要是這樣子齁我想要釐清一下這個煙害防治策進會是不是國民健康署的這個上司是嗎是還是不是我想煙害防治法在國民健康署是主責單位那部裡面有一個策進會只是針對說我們就是說我們整個煙害防治的時候有一個報告那部長是個召集人"},{"start":21120.623,"end":21142.293,"text":"對阿對啦但是他他就是你們的那個整個應該不是我們不是嘛不是你的上司嘛雖然部長是但是這個測競會不是嗎那所以根據這位福布你們的這個淹害防治測競會設置要點召集人當然由部長兼任執行長藝人是由次長兼任那這個會的這個"},{"start":21145.095,"end":21171.628,"text":"呃這個工作小組就是由國民健康署署長你擔任召集人嘛對不對所以這個測淨會就是國建署的長官那也就是淹害基金會的淹害基金會的頂頭上司啊那現在要審預算那本期就想了解一下就是說有關於這個淹害呃這個淹害防治測淨會每年有多少預算可以使用好那既然你們說都有這個設立工作小組負責推動淹害防治相關工作那就表示說這個單位應該有有"},{"start":21174.209,"end":21187.655,"text":"這個預算來執行相關的工作那你們明確說這個單位每年有多少預算然後錢從哪裡來你們可以講一下嗎委員指的是測進會這個單位是吧它就是一個臨時的組織的一個會議而已"},{"start":21193.049,"end":21220.64,"text":"臨時編制的一個會議而已臨時編制的會議那因為這個策經會113年度的會議資料這個單位的經費好像是你們應該是來自這個菸品健康福利捐嘛是來自於這個菸害防治基金阿他沒有特別的預算編內阿都沒有對但是他的我是從你們113年度的會議資料那邊看來的喔你們要經費這個菸品的這個健康福利捐"},{"start":21222.862,"end":21250.538,"text":"整體我們做的菸奶房子相關的菸味的編列跟執行成交業務報告那會在這個執行裡面做討論報告會在這裡做討論嗎?因為部長是召集有相關的委員嘛那必須要跟這個委員來報告說我們今天的執行狀況跟明年度的那個相關的菸味編列所以你們那個預算什麼通通都是沒有?沒有都沒有預算這個只有那個開會而已一個委員會而已"},{"start":21250.998,"end":21267.709,"text":"好,那你們那個會議資料,就是會後也再一併提供給我們做參考。OK,好,謝謝。好,沒問題,謝謝,謝謝委員。謝謝,謝謝陳英文。我們吳立華委員要求實行事務。稍安靜啦,稍安靜啦。謝謝主席提敘。有請部長。"},{"start":21280.819,"end":21300.101,"text":"委員好部長好因為我上次有關心過我們的原建法通過後的一周年之前有成立了原住民族健康研究中心原住民族健康研究中心到了今天又剛好又在滿一年所以我很關心就是"},{"start":21301.042,"end":21326.181,"text":"這成立的一年到底我們做了什麼我也很關心到底我們應該做哪一些改進那我從這個地方開始說起聯合國原住民權利宣言我們可以看到在保健的部分它的條文用到的是原住民族這個主體主詞到了我們的原基法呢我們發現關於這個衛生保健的部分我們的條文是用政府"},{"start":21327.061,"end":21345.267,"text":"所以它已經被去集體化而且它的內容是指那一些什麼福利資源的交通費用等等這種單點式的補助還好我們在前年我們完成了援助民族健康法在這個當中也提到要做一個援助民族的健康研究中心"},{"start":21346.187,"end":21373.689,"text":"那我們是希望說我們可以不再用西方醫療的眼光看待原住民族的健康我們的政策的規劃也不應該用單點式、個人式的補救心態我們希望我們的整個對健康定義可以去殖民化那避免大家把原住民族的健康視為劣等是有不平等但是不能視為劣等所以呢我們舉一個例子我們看到在我們的原住民族人口及健康統計年報"},{"start":21374.89,"end":21389.99,"text":"竟然有出現什麼酒精相關的什麼躁鬱症、酒精性肝病這個在其他的健康年報沒有出現這個只有在原住民的健康才有所以我們問了很久它的依據為何、證據是什麼沒有,刻板印象"},{"start":21392.734,"end":21406.883,"text":"所以也許是真的但是就是提不出個數據資料證據所以我們覺得我們希望未來這個原住民族健康中心能夠起碼像毛利人一樣做一個部落父權什麼叫部落父權至少每一個問題都要問"},{"start":21408.004,"end":21424.81,"text":"如果是布農族他會怎麼想他會怎麼做如果是泰雅族他會怎麼想會怎麼做我們希望呢這樣的一個方式因此我們就很希望說我們的健康不要用一般的這樣的一個方式去醫療化例如在我們有看到這個跳草群舞是為什麼"},{"start":21429.972,"end":21447.897,"text":"因為夏威夷他們有一個數據說他們的夏威夷的原住民死於心臟病是比一般高出70%但是他們後來透過他們的一些傳統的方式去做填調發現跳草群舞也許能夠有所幫助果然"},{"start":21449.077,"end":21464.122,"text":"真的能夠控制正常而且效果程序更久所以原建中心有沒有具備能力讓我們的族人想像部落的健康而不是用診所用西方醫學來訂定這個是很重要的甚至像這種健康促進"},{"start":21464.802,"end":21480.547,"text":"有沒有可能是由文件站以後來做而不是有衛生所都要有所依據有所證據所以我在這邊因為時間的關係我也都不好意思再問了那我只有一個很重要的想像就是人才的招募那我到網站看不到"},{"start":21481.007,"end":21508.498,"text":"如果有人有心要進來他也不知道要從哪個門進來那現在我再問一下像明年度有一個國際原住民族健康研討會議原建中心有沒有要派人參加但至少我目前知道這一年來已經有很多國際原住民的健康研討會不曉得我們的原建中心有沒有參加過院長還是部長好那我是希望啦這個"},{"start":21510.728,"end":21527.438,"text":"一定要有我們的一個文化安全我們已經入法我們必須要具備文化安全文化敏感度的人來做這個工作所以我很在意原住民族健康研究中心有沒有至少有可能讓原住民來做來參與"},{"start":21529.005,"end":21544.178,"text":"好,我想這個,巴委員,剛剛上次也有提過啦,我們在國會院的團隊討論的時候也很希望能夠找到,院長也一直在物色相關的,如果有適當的人請推薦,那第二個相關的會議我想我們"},{"start":21545.519,"end":21563.437,"text":"國衛院或者是招募師都會派人,衛福部都會派人過去,那個像我的好朋友田志學醫師,他也特別他說要出國要去爭取一些主辦權,我們也給他最大的鼓勵希望能夠到台灣來辦理,所以我想,然後第三個就是"},{"start":21564.15,"end":21579.063,"text":"健康的影響因素是世界衛生史早已經接觸我們社會文化相關的跟健康的關係都是非常重要也就是說各個文化的我們要站在他的立場上面"},{"start":21579.924,"end":21604.43,"text":"來思考健康怎麼樣來照顧這就跟委員的指示是一樣的好那我聽到這樣的一個回覆我覺得甚感安慰那我也希望後續能夠確實的去質詢那我們很希望真正的讓原建法立法三讀通過之後能看見我們的一個轉變也具體的在我們原住民健康的表現上面"},{"start":21604.89,"end":21618.1,"text":"能夠看到有所改善那我相信我們有充分的證據相信應該如果是原住民有這方面的專業的背景來做的話應該有更多的不一樣好謝謝部長、謝謝市長、謝謝院長、謝謝主席、謝謝部長"},{"start":21625.58,"end":21650.399,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束。委員楊耀、邱振鈞、竹千琦所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。現在作以下決定。報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者。請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從期所定。"},{"start":21653.863,"end":21660.407,"text":"下禮拜三、四要審你們的預算所以大家準備本次會議到此結束現在上會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}