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我想請問法務部"},{"start":217.829,"end":236.947,"text":"針對這個案子有沒有向上溯源擴大偵辦我問題問完你再回答一個小英男孩就有辦法做到這件事有沒有其他政府人士黨政人士涉入部長回答之前我先幫你回答你會說個案不評論你會說偵查不公開對不對我猜中了沒"},{"start":238.416,"end":266.977,"text":"我想有證據就一定向上溯源嘛好 第三句 證據到哪辦到哪對啊 那個現在不是有那個今天這個新聞就出來了包括那個證訊嫌犯以及那個某建設公司的副職都已經進鑑了嘛就進鑑了 那進鑑就積壓進鑑部長 我直接告訴你啦沒關係啦 我要告訴你啦那我想這個外界看你們檢察官在辦事嘛"},{"start":268.278,"end":294.927,"text":"今天王俊麗有沒有施壓罷免期間不要動罷免之後再動有沒有這個不要去做一個採測你幫王俊麗背書嘛你不要去做採測你幫他背書嘛 你就說絕對沒有當然 這個怎麼可能你就直接講絕對沒有嘛這個不要去採測這麼巧 罷免期間請問這個案件到底他在裡面運人小老鼠偷吃台電"},{"start":296.047,"end":320.885,"text":"偷吃了多少年 多久 他偷吃多久你告訴大家 總知道吧這個案件我不清楚你看嘛 又來啦 個案不清楚 偵查不公開你只有一個情況之下 你們的偵查會公開啦辦柯文哲 辦黃綠幾如偵查就一定公開啦報紙就報滿滿啦遇到今天民進黨的避難弊案就偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據辦到哪裡你就這三句話就結束"},{"start":322.27,"end":348.606,"text":"說真的整個執行 你三句話 你在那邊可以結束啊來 我要告訴你有沒有其他政府人士 黨政人士涉入 有沒有個案不評論 偵查不公開這個要看那個案件 得一個證據 得一個說明證據到哪 辦到哪 結束我問你 你也回答了 來那 正信嫌犯被搜索時 竟然對調查人員嗆聲啊你知道我背後是誰嗎我想請問你知道他背後是誰嗎"},{"start":350.472,"end":378.4,"text":"你知道他背後是誰嗎背後就是民進黨背後就是權貴行政院能源檢探辦公室是不是政府職務是不是30歲不到就可以去當行政院能源檢探辦公室主任背景深厚啊權貴啊綠油油啊黨政關係好啊"},{"start":380.134,"end":397.505,"text":"沒有上線天花板嘛 該辦就辦嘛 對不對誒 非常好 你終於講一句我認同的話有證據就辦啦 這部分黨派就有證據向上辦啦來沒關係 我告訴你有一個人期待你向上辦你知道是誰嗎有一個人期待你向上辦是誰嗎 你知道嗎有這個問題嗎郭志輝啊郭志輝講了啊為什麼一直講綠能小老鼠"},{"start":408.649,"end":434.727,"text":"郭志輝更假於綠能大老鼠啊 更大尾在後面啊郭志輝什麼時候約談 個案不評論 偵查不公開有證據到哪 辦到哪來了嘛 我懂啊我懂啊 我懂啊我這一年多跟副長你相處 我怎麼會不瞭解你你看我都幫你回答 我對你多體貼我看連吳宗憲主席都可以幫你回答了我要不要點他起來幫你回答"},{"start":436.348,"end":464.949,"text":"綠能大老鼠請教主席會議詢問綠能大老鼠是這樣你覺得我們的部長他的回答就是三句話就結束啊檢察官他就這樣三句話結束啊好啦沒事主席好就拿你做示範啦因為他也都面對你這樣的回答嘛每一個都面對你這樣回答三句話金句結束我都常常在講今天我們的法務部長你直接在背後貼一個背板"},{"start":466.243,"end":494.429,"text":"然後呢 每個委員上來質詢你就是偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據到哪辦到哪 三句然後每個委員 外委員你就說三句你認選結束了嘛那質詢就很好過啊那我就要問啦郭志威說還有更大委 那個綠能大老鼠請問檢察官該不該辦 該不該約談你也是檢察系統出身的人嘛他都已經跟你講更大委了 要不要辦嘛"},{"start":496.238,"end":521.959,"text":"我不問個案喔這個我就要會議詢問了沒辦法抱歉因為我沒幹過檢察官我不知道也許我這個才疏學淺這個知識短陋當今天綠能小老鼠已經是被抓到偷吃綠能偷吃台電挖台電的錢造成台電的虧損"},{"start":523.666,"end":540.254,"text":"那想請問郭志輝經濟部長誒說還有更大尾的一個正常的檢察官會不會辦他會不會約起碼約談他會不會約談他我不知道檢察官失誤啊這個檢察官是可以主動簡報分案分案之後當然是可以傳訊因為可以把他當作證人的身份傳喚"},{"start":541.434,"end":558.579,"text":"對啊 謝謝 你看回答得多好我沒有教你指導個案我要問你是原則嘛你看他主席原則性講得多好檢報分案就可以啦你跟我這樣回答我也滿意啊你要等到主席講完以後才要跟進也不錯啦主席指導你我覺得你講得也蠻好的啊謝謝主席指導啊大家一起給他掌聲鼓勵鼓勵啊我告訴你"},{"start":567.731,"end":587.731,"text":"八千億的坑哪裡來的啊八千億的坑就是今天法務部檢查系統你們怠惰造成的啦今天你好好抓綠人小老鼠綠人大老鼠你積極主動一點阿現在不抓了嗎阿你抓一隻小老鼠更大尾的你告現在給我吱吱嗚嗚但抓一個小老鼠九年抓一隻小老鼠很驕傲啊"},{"start":588.732,"end":605.627,"text":"很驕傲啊我知道啊 9年很困難啊柯文哲跟黃綠錦如就不困難啊還有韋兆文書1000萬交保 超級不困難啊完全沒有違和感啊國民黨的黨工 被你們抓200多個約談對不對 起訴30個人 也不困難啊只有遇到藍的困難啦遇到綠的不困難啦 我還不懂"},{"start":615.96,"end":642.23,"text":"最後我要跟我們要尊重檢察官辦案的一個計劃嘛謝謝你啦 遇到綠的案子就尊重檢察官辦案遇到藍的案子基本上就努力用力的死命的往死裡打死裡辦啦我在這邊跟部長直接講一件事情我知道在這個任內你的任內 民進黨任內是無望啦是無望啦講什麼都叫狗吠火車啦"},{"start":643.752,"end":661.904,"text":"但是我今天鄭重跟你保證我會開始推動政治迫害調查委員會我今天就要檢視半藍不半綠然後用偵查公開不正手段來去迫害在野黨迫害政治迫害在野黨這些不屑的辦案人員你當然這樣講"},{"start":667.547,"end":693.643,"text":"這句話交給人民公判啦交給人民公判啦遇到今天民進黨的案子到底我們檢察官辦的情形力度如何我不跟你辯論因為我知道反正你就那三句話結束你叫三句部長啦但是我要跟你講什麼人民看得清清楚楚嘛你有看過一個偽造文書還是一千萬交保的你看過嗎"},{"start":695.404,"end":711.905,"text":"我想今天你看 你看看今天你們對在野黨的方式喔你只要十分之一拿來對付民進黨的貪賭弊案台電八千億的坑就可能補得起來 我告訴你沒有關係 我說過我們不抱任何期待我在這邊就宣誓啊"},{"start":713.413,"end":737.895,"text":"就是要民進黨都可以成立什麼轉型正義委員會不當黨產的委員會一樣啊 重版執政來成立政治迫害委員會啊我這邊也要拜託我告訴各位檢察官很多非常正直的啦我也不是沒有遇到檢察官跟我complain說這幾年人家水生活正直檢察官水生活的所在多有"},{"start":739.008,"end":765.009,"text":"今天我做這件事情是為了政治檢察官因為你如果沒有辦法去約束去讓這些為了求官去向所謂的執政者表態的打手告訴他們你今天所有的清算鬥爭的手法你要付出代價的話我告訴你政治永遠無法清明所以這是我很簡單的一個結論我最後還是要講我在這邊跟你公開推薦一個人"},{"start":766.462,"end":787.364,"text":"王俊麗一定要保他 重用他 為什麼喔 育人小老鼠等到罷免案之後再辦啊 非常好但是羅志強你等不及啊7月30日發一個莫名其妙的公文要查我公車廣告的資金 欸 奇怪啦不然你總有法律常識吧"},{"start":789.897,"end":810.052,"text":"競選當天有沒有所謂的宣傳罷免或選舉那是行政罰款吧 沒錯吧是不是啊 沒錯吧是啦那我想請問你啊我很抱歉啊那請問7月31號這麼火速火急啊我謝謝王俊麗的積極認識啦謝謝你 以上好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時28分）有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，在正式開始質詢之前，我想先講一個台電的鬼故事給你聽。你知道台電長年以來一直都是我們國家收入的金雞母、國營事業金雞母，你知道到哪一年它開始賠錢的，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：當然你不清楚，它是在2006年開始賠錢的，陳水扁執政，民進黨第一次執政2006年開始賠錢，賠了非常巨額的虧損，最後馬政府上來以後被逼得調漲電價。但是你知道台電這個金雞母是到哪一年從所謂的大錢坑又變回金雞母，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：對，你一定不知道，是2014年，就馬總統任內把它從賠錢貨又變回金雞母。你知道到馬總統卸任的時候，交了多少盈餘變成電價穩定基金交給蔡英文政府，你知道嗎？你一定不知道對不對？828億的電價穩定基金。可是民進黨執政到現在九年了，你知道台電撥補了多少錢嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：你也不知道？3,000億。然後你知道台電撥補了3,000億之後，現在虧損多少嗎？你也不知道對不對？超過4,500億。給它828億用光光，然後再用納稅錢補3,000億，馬政府的時候一毛錢都沒補。再加上還賠了4,500億以上，加起來的大錢坑就是8,000億。","接下來我就要問你知道的事了，請問你知道8,000億的大錢坑是被哪一個老鼠坑掉的？你知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：你不知道啊？你不知道就該打屁股了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個不是我權管的……"],["羅委員智強：你不知道就該打屁股，為什麼？我講原因給你聽，就是被弊案吞掉的啦！我現在直接跟你講，就是被綠能的小老鼠跟大老鼠一起吞掉的啦！現在抓到一個綠能小老鼠是誰你總知道吧，不會告訴我不知道吧！有一個綠電小老鼠被抓到了啊，是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：鄭姓的嫌犯嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對啊，鄭亦麟啊！喬供電啦，好偉大啊！收賄貪污，難怪台電一直虧錢，全部去養這種綠能老鼠，這已經是綠能產業結構性的貪腐。抱歉，我看到我們的法務部、我們的檢調，對於這8,000億的老鼠坑事實上要拖三拖四……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會啦！跟委員報告，其實像某核電廠的某位廠長我們也辦了嘛！"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我再問你，這位小老鼠不到30歲就擔任行政院能源減碳辦公室主任，外界稱他是「小英男孩」，背景深厚、「喬」供電、貪污收賄、坐擁鉅產！沒有關係，我想請問法務部，針對這個案子有沒有向上溯源擴大偵辦？我先把問題問完，你等一下再回答。一個小英男孩就有辦法做到這件事？有沒有其他黨政人士涉入？部長回答之前，我先幫你回答，你會說個案不評論，你會說偵查不公開，對不對？我猜中了沒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想有證據就一定向上溯源嘛！"],["羅委員智強：好，第三句是證據到哪兒辦到哪兒。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！今天新聞不是就出來了，包括鄭姓嫌犯以及某建設公司的那對父子已經羈押禁見了，這就彰顯我們就是要向上溯源……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我直接告訴你啦！沒關係，我要告訴你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個案件我們要再做一個思考嘛……"],["羅委員智強：外界看你們檢察官在辦事嘛！今天王俊力有沒有施壓說罷免期間不要動，罷免期後再動，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不要去做一個揣測啦……"],["羅委員智強：你幫王俊力背書嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要去揣測啦！"],["羅委員智強：我不用去揣測，你幫他背書嘛，你就說絕對沒有！"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然是……這個怎麼可能……"],["羅委員智強：你就直接講絕對沒有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不要去揣測說怎麼做政治上的考量……"],["羅委員智強：這麼巧啊，罷免期間……針對這個案件，請問綠能小老鼠偷吃台電偷吃了多少年？他偷吃了多久？你告訴大家，總知道吧！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件我不清楚……"],["羅委員智強：你看嘛，又來了！個案不清楚、偵查不公開，只有一個情況之下你們的偵查會公開啦，辦柯文哲、辦黃呂錦茹，偵查就一定公開，報紙就報滿滿啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有公開，我們是嚴守偵查不公開……"],["羅委員智強：今天遇到民進黨的綠能弊案就偵查不公開、個案不評論、證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡，你說這三句話就結束！說真的，整個質詢你在那邊用三句話就可以結束啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有辦法去指導和介入嘛！"],["羅委員智強：來，我要請問你，有沒有其他政府人士、黨政人士涉入？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["羅委員智強：個案不評論、偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看案件證據的……"],["羅委員智強：證據到哪兒辦到哪兒，好，結束！我問你，你也回答了。","鄭姓嫌犯被搜索時，竟然對調查人員嗆聲：「你知道我背後是誰嗎？」我想請問，你知道他背後是誰嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：他背後就是民進黨啊！他背後就是權貴！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這整個要由檢察官依法蒐集證據去認定事實嘛！"],["羅委員智強：行政院能源減碳辦公室是不是政府職務？是不是？30歲不到就可以去當行政院能源減碳辦公室主任，背景深厚啊！權貴啊！綠友友啊！黨政關係好啊！沒有上限天花板，該辦就辦嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：勿枉勿縱嘛，有證據就辦……"],["羅委員智強：非常好，你終於講一句我認同的話。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有證據就辦，這不分黨派，就有證據……"],["羅委員智強：向上辦啦！來，沒關係，我告訴你有一個人期待你向上辦，你知道是誰嗎？有一個人期待你向上辦，你知道是誰嗎？你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有這個問題嗎？"],["羅委員智強：郭智輝啊！郭智輝講了啊！我為什麼一直講綠能小老鼠？郭智輝跟你講有綠能大老鼠，更大尾的在後面啊！郭智輝什麼時候約談？是不是又要說個案不評論、偵查不公開、有證據到哪兒辦到哪兒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法幫檢察官回答這個問題。"],["羅委員智強：我懂啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法，你卻一直問我，我又不是承辦人……"],["羅委員智強：我懂啊！這一年多跟部長相處，我怎麼會不了解你？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是反映政策面的嘛，對個案我怎麼……"],["羅委員智強：你看我都幫你回答，我對你多體貼！我看連吳宗憲主席都可以幫你回答了，我要不要點他起來幫你回答？綠能大老鼠……請教主席，會議詢問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：主席也知道嘛！我怎麼去處理這些問題呢？"],["羅委員智強：綠能大老鼠是這樣，部長的回答就是三句話就結束啊！他就這樣三句話結束啊！","好啦，沒事了，主席請坐，其實只是拿你做個示範。因為主席也都面對你這樣的回答，每一個人都面對你這樣的回答，三句金句結束。我常常在講，我們的法務部長乾脆直接在背後貼一個背板，每個委員上來質詢，你就秀出「偵查不公開、個案不評論、有證據到哪兒辦到哪兒」這三句，然後每個委員問完，你就說三句任選，這樣就結束了嘛，質詢就很好過啊！那我就要問了，郭智輝說還有更大尾的綠能大老鼠，請問檢察官該不該辦、該不該約談？你也是檢察系統出身的人，他都已經跟你講有更大尾的，要不要辦嘛？我不問個案喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為如果檢察官有這個需要，檢察官會有他的偵查程序，這個我們尊重嘛！"],["羅委員智強：這個我就要會議詢問了，沒辦法！抱歉，因為我沒幹過檢察官，所以我不知道，也許我才疏學淺、知識短陋，當今天綠能小老鼠已經被抓到偷吃綠能、偷吃台電、挖台電的錢、造成台電的虧損，而經濟部長郭智輝說還有更大尾的，一個正常的檢察官會不會辦他、會不會約談他？起碼會約談吧？會不會約談他？我不知道檢察官的實務。"],["主席：檢察官可以主動剪報分案，分案之後當然可以傳訊，因為可以把他當作證人的身分傳喚。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，謝謝，你看回答得多好！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法去指導檢察官說這個你要傳、那個你不要傳嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我沒有叫你指導個案，我要問你的是原則嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你就是要我去指導個案，我沒辦法去處理嘛！"],["羅委員智強：你看看主席原則性講得多好，剪報分案就可以了啊！你跟我這樣回答，我也滿意啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官已經在偵辦中，他不是也搜索……"],["羅委員智強：你要等到主席講完以後才要跟進也不錯啦，主席指導你，我覺得你講得也蠻好的啊！謝謝主席指導，大家一起給他掌聲鼓勵鼓勵。","我告訴你，8,000億的坑哪裡來的？8,000億的坑就是法務部檢察系統怠惰造成的啦！今天你好好抓綠能小老鼠、綠能大老鼠，積極主動一點……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在不是抓了嗎？"],["羅委員智強：你抓一隻小老鼠，更大尾的你到現在給我支支吾吾！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個要請檢察署蒐集證據嘛！"],["羅委員智強：九年抓一隻小老鼠很驕傲啊！很驕傲啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不知道蒐證的時候多困難。"],["羅委員智強：我知道啊，九年很困難啊！柯文哲跟黃呂錦茹就不困難啊！還有偽造文書1,000萬交保超級不困難啊！完全沒有違和感啊！國民黨的黨工被你們約談兩百多個，起訴30個人也不困難啊！只有遇到藍的困難，遇到綠的不困難啦，我還不懂嗎？最後我要……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官要蒐證，所以我們要尊重檢察官辦案的計畫……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你、謝謝你啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你一直要我去介入指導、干涉個案嘛，對不對？"],["羅委員智強：遇到綠的案子就尊重檢察官辦案，遇到藍的案子基本上就努力、用力、死命的往死裡打往死裡辦啦！我在這邊跟部長直接講一件事情，我知道在你的任內、在民進黨任內是無望啦，講什麼都是在狗吠火車，但是我在這邊鄭重跟你保證，我會開始推動政治迫害調查委員會，我今天就要檢視辦藍不辦綠，然後用偵查公開、不正手段去政治迫害在野黨，這些不肖的辦案人員……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官辦案不分黨派，你很清楚啦！不分黨派啦！"],["羅委員智強：你當然這樣講，這句話交給人民公判啦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不分黨派啦！各黨派都有嘛！重點不是……"],["羅委員智強：交給人民公判啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有涉及犯罪的話，都有辦嘛！"],["羅委員智強：遇到今天民進黨的案子，我們檢察官辦的情形、力度到底如何？我不跟你辯論，因為我知道反正你就是講那三句話然後結束，你叫「三句部長」啦！但是我要跟你講什麼？人民看得清清楚楚啊！你有看過一個偽造文書案是以1,000萬元交保的，你看過嗎？我也建議你看看今天你們對在野黨的方式，你只要拿十分之一來對付民進黨的貪瀆弊案，我告訴你，台電8,000億的坑就可能補得起來。沒有關係，我說過我們不抱任何期待，我在這邊就宣示啊！民進黨都可以成立什麼促進轉型正義委員會、不當黨產處理委員會，一樣啊！重返執政來成立政治迫害委員會啊！我在這邊也要拜託，我告訴各位，有很多非常正直的檢察官，我也不是沒有遇到檢察官跟我complain說這幾年水深火熱，陷於水深火熱的正直檢察官所在多有啦！今天我做這件事情，是為了正直的檢察官，因為如果你沒有辦法去約束這些為了求官而向所謂的執政者表態的打手，告訴他們：「你今天用清算、鬥爭的手法，你就要付出代價」，我告訴你，政治永遠無法清明，這是我很簡單的一個結論。","我最後還是要講，我在這邊跟你公開推薦一個人，對王俊力這個人一定要保他、重用他，為什麼？綠能小老鼠等到罷免案之後再辦，非常好！但是對羅智強就等不及啊！7月31號發一個莫名其妙的公文，要查我公車廣告的資金，奇怪啦！部長，你總是有法律常識吧！在競選當天有沒有所謂的宣傳罷免或選舉，那是行政罰款，沒錯吧？是不是？沒錯吧？是啦！那我想請問你，我很抱歉啊！請問7月31號這麼火速、火急，我謝謝王俊力的積極任事啦！謝謝你，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位我們請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","好，所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","我們依照先前的宣告先休息5分鐘，在休息5分鐘之後進行討論事項。","休息（11時42分）","繼續開會（11時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}