{"error":false,"id":["163710"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":163710,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163710","日期":"2025-08-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-36-25","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":25,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-08-28T10:07:32+08:00","結束時間":"2025-08-28T10:16:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d7402fc94809cab5fb261655294c1ef9ae1982cf155f147233f69935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:07:32 - 10:16:05","會議時間":"2025-08-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案。\n【8月27日及28日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.61471875,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.454093750000002,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.449718750000002,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.48346875,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.28471875,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.55346875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.19846875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.97471875,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.244093750000005,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.040968750000005,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.24909375,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.65409375,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.27784375,"end":71.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.47534375000001,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.52534375,"end":78.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.51221875,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.04721875,"end":92.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.16409375,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.10909375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.48846875000001,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.66971875,"end":98.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.34471875000001,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.32721875,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.32221875,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.51534375000001,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.31659375000001,"end":119.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.26534375000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.68221875,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.94346875000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.77846875,"end":134.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.06909375,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.04721875,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.45159375,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.97034375,"end":154.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.66909375,"end":169.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.40096875,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.22784375,"end":176.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.50971875000002,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.78784375,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.98159375,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.69409375,"end":186.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.60096875000002,"end":190.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.44409375,"end":194.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.49846875,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.99596875,"end":198.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.37971875000002,"end":200.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.15159375000002,"end":202.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.98659375000003,"end":207.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.72846875000002,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.81284375,"end":208.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.84221875,"end":211.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.42409375000003,"end":215.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.01409375,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.57096875000002,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.98846875,"end":218.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.96721875,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.86971875,"end":248.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.56596875000002,"end":251.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.62846875000002,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.18096875,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.32784375,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.85409375,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.81596875,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.54534375000003,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.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謝謝好 麻煩監察院的代表好 我先請教副人事長委員好這裡面認為的政務人員應該包括哪一些如果從字面上的定義看起來"},{"start":44.31,"end":71.461,"text":"最大多數就是政治任命的 像部會首長還有地方政府的 一起機關首長 一起主管這些就是政務人員 還有有些是憲法跟法律規定他獨立行職職權 有任體制的好 那你認為縣市長是不是政府人員縣市長是民選人員 民選的行政首長那縣市長要不要被規範要有行為基準法"},{"start":73.478,"end":83.213,"text":"這個就是我們過去一直在討論然後就是大家意見會比較分歧的這個討論多久了"},{"start":85.964,"end":110.502,"text":"討論的時間就剛剛其實幾位首長有報告過那個委員也大概大概有講這個從民國八十幾年一直從考試院跟行政院總共送了五次的這個那都長不一樣嗎對這一個人員的定義都長不一樣定義就是每次討論的時候就是哪些要納進來 哪些不納進來"},{"start":114.265,"end":140.845,"text":"包括還有一些像兼任的可是他的職務看起來是不是是不是也像這個一般的這個行政的政務官有類似的職長可是他的相關的權益譬如說他可能是無給職等等的無給職兼任然後是這個委員會的委員所以這個是的確這個範圍的定義上面"},{"start":143.927,"end":154.372,"text":"會有不同的意見會有不同意見所以這一塊在這幾年的討論也沒有大家沒有共識那最主要是出在哪裡出在有些人不想要被納進來還是怎麼樣因為這個各有各的觀點各有各的觀點就是覺得權力義務總是對等我們到底是管理的強度跟他這個他的這個"},{"start":170.455,"end":172.276,"text":"那你們認為國營事業的董事長要不要被規範"},{"start":192.005,"end":219.803,"text":"國營事業的董事長他現在中立法是他是准用的範圍他本來就有被規範沒有 我是說如果現在要立這個法的話立這個法我們會認為他不是政務人員所以國營事業相關的就不會被規範在裡頭對 因為他是公務員任用法分支出來的是某一種類型的好 OK那我先請問這個監察院"},{"start":221.943,"end":246.968,"text":"我們現在在做公職財產申報除了這一般的文官 就是事務官在一定的職等以上就要申報那有些像有些縣市政府的官員有些被抽籤抽中了也要申報 我記得是這樣那請問這個申報的這些人當時監察院現在執行這個的時候他要財產申報 當時為什麼這些人要申報"},{"start":253.766,"end":278.679,"text":"報告委員公職人員財產申報處的目的就是希望透過財產申報的制度讓所有的公職人員的財產都能夠暴露在陽光之下陽光是一個最好的防腐劑然後可以檢視所有包括政務人員還有公務人員他們的財產的狀況對好那這一個財產申報過程中有沒有出現政務人員這四個字"},{"start":283.413,"end":297.699,"text":"報告委員 裡面也有出現政務人員的相關規定拿來 副人事長可不可以按照公職委員財政申報法裡頭寫的政務人員就這樣定義不然我們就會出現兩個法的政務人員的定義不一樣"},{"start":308.511,"end":327.139,"text":"這個部分你要再慎重的考慮啦比如說我們討論的過程像大法官最高行政院法院院長他們其實本身的中立甚至比一般的政務官員要受到更嚴格的要求"},{"start":327.859,"end":345.359,"text":"所以這個各種類型它的強度都會有不同那這個大家也有不一樣的意見就是說這一塊到底要不要納進來那其實就是在範圍的界定上需要譬如說像我們"},{"start":347.021,"end":369.58,"text":"剛剛有報告說地方的不管是民選首長其實他不是政務官他一般的認知上不會說他叫政務人員給他政治任命但是他的相關的權限跟影響其實又跟政務首長"},{"start":370.962,"end":392.881,"text":"有非常類似的地方那現在框最大的問題是要把它的管理管到那個強度到底能不能比較適切的去符合它的比例的原則所以這個是大家就是在討論但是目前就是還沒有正式的這個大家比較確定的"},{"start":394.283,"end":403.477,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話那如果用監察院的這個財產申報裡頭的政務人員你覺得哪一些應該要排除啊"},{"start":405.257,"end":433.491,"text":"我們覺得我們自己的意見啦我們是認為那個大法官跟那個這個最高法院的最高法院行政最高行政法院這些因為他有比較嚴格的要求那我們自己本身總署的意見會是認為這些可能排除上我們會認為適當那除了這些排除還有沒有其他各個領域的人是不是贊同我們的看法"},{"start":434.391,"end":448.596,"text":"這個我們就沒有完全的把握因為也有人阻擋把它放進去所以你們要去了解各個領域的狀況因為涉及到各院嘛還要涉及到就算在行政院也還要涉及到地方政府"},{"start":449.625,"end":467.594,"text":"所以就是牽涉的範圍的確是比較大的好那我是不是建議這樣接下來如果這個案子行政院相關的部會要提相關的案子進來討論的話那我是建議是不是就用這個公職員財產申報有政務人員以他為基礎然後看哪一些認為應該要剔除"},{"start":469.81,"end":472.793,"text":"好 委員您的意見我們會帶回去參考對 進行這樣的討論是不是會比較容易聚焦啦是阿不然這樣整個都開花了搞不清楚現在要設定的範圍那掛一路萬或者是千年無辜就把一些"},{"start":486.168,"end":505.274,"text":"不應該納進來 納進來有些人一時興起說那種職位要納進來有一些沒提到就忘了他其實他也有必要這一塊再請你們進行相關的研議用最快的時間再把他送到院裡頭立法院裡頭來讓我們進行相關的討論好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時7分）請行政院人事行政總處副人事長還有監察院的代表，謝謝。"],["主席：請副人事長和監察院代表。"],["王委員義川：我先請教副人事長。"],["張副人事長秋元：委員好。"],["王委員義川：你們認為的政務人員應該包括哪一些？如果從字面上的定義看起來。"],["張副人事長秋元：最大多數就是政治任命的，像部會首長還有地方政府的一級機關首長、一級主管，這些就是政務人員，還有一些是憲法跟法律規定他獨立行使職權、有任期制的，這是……"],["王委員義川：好，那你認為縣市長是不是政務人員？"],["張副人事長秋元：縣市長是民選的行政首長。"],["王委員義川：那縣市長要不要被規範、要不要有行為基準法？"],["張副人事長秋元：這個就是我們過去一直在討論、大家意見比較分歧的地方。"],["王委員義川：這個討論多久了？"],["張副人事長秋元：討論的時間，剛剛其實幾位首長都有報告過，委員也大概有講，這個從民國八十幾年到現在，考試院跟行政院總共送了五次的修正草案進來。"],["王委員義川：對人員的定義都長不一樣，是不是？"],["張副人事長秋元：定義就是每次討論的時候哪些要納進來、哪些不納進來，包括還有一些像兼任的，他的職務看起來是不是也像一般的政務官，有類似的職掌，可是他的相關權益，譬如他可能是無給職等等。"],["王委員義川：無給職、兼任某委員會的委員？"],["張副人事長秋元：的確，這個範圍的定義上面會有不同的意見。"],["王委員義川：會有不同意見，所以這一塊在這幾年的討論，大家沒有共識，最主要原因是出在哪裡，出在有些人不想要被納進來還是怎麼樣？"],["張副人事長秋元：這個各有各的觀點，只是覺得權利義務總是對等，到底我們管理的強度跟他職務的程度，或者是我們給他的相關的權益等等類型很多，所以討論上大家一直沒有一個共識。"],["王委員義川：那你們認為國營事業的董事長要不要被規範？"],["張副人事長秋元：國營事業的董事長，現在是中立法準用的範圍，他本來就有被規範。"],["王委員義川：我是說如果現在要立這個法的話。"],["張副人事長秋元：立這個法，我們會認為他不是政務人員。"],["王委員義川：所以國營事業相關的就不會被規範在裡頭？"],["張副人事長秋元：對，因為他是公務員任用法分支出來的，是某一種類型的，所以不是……"],["王委員義川：好，OK！那我先請問監察院，我們現在在做公職人員財產申報，除了一般的文官，就是事務官在一定的職等以上就要申報，有些像縣市政府的官員被抽籤抽中了也要申報嘛，我記得是這樣。"],["黃處長奕元：是。"],["王委員義川：請問申報的這些人，當時監察院在執行財產申報的時候，為什麼這些人要申報？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，公職人員財產申報處的目的就是希望透過財產申報的制度，讓所有公職人員的財產都能夠暴露在陽光之下，因為陽光是一個最好的防腐劑，然後可以檢視所有，包括政務人員還有公務人員他們財產的狀況。"],["王委員義川：對，好。那這一個財產申報過程中，有沒有出現「政務人員」這四個字？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，財產申報裡面也有出現政務人員的相關規定。"],["王委員義川：來，副人事長，那可不可以按照公職人員財產申報法裡頭寫的「政務人員」就這樣定義？不然我們就會出現兩個法的政務人員的定義不一樣。"],["張副人事長秋元：這部分可能要再慎重的考慮，譬如說我們討論的過程，像大法官、最高行政法院的院長，他們其實本身的中立甚至比一般的政務官員要受到更嚴格的要求，所以各種類型的強度都會有不同，這個大家有不一樣的意見，就是說這塊到底要不要納進來，其實就是在範圍的界定上需要，譬如說像我們剛剛有報告，地方的民選首長，其實他不是政務官，一般的認知上不會說他叫……"],["王委員義川：政務人員。"],["張副人事長秋元：給他政治任命，但是他的相關的權限跟影響，其實又跟政務首長有非常類似的地方，那到底是要……"],["王委員義川：那現在框最大的……"],["張副人事長秋元：要把他的管理管到那個強度，到底能不能比較適切的去符合他的比例原則，這個大家就是在討論，但是目前還沒有正式的大家比較確定的答案。"],["王委員義川：如果是這樣子的話，如果用監察院的財產申報裡頭的政務人員，你覺得哪一些應該要排除？"],["張副人事長秋元：就我們自己的意見，我們是認為大法官跟法院體系的，包括最高法院、最高行政法院這些，因為他有比較嚴格的要求，我們自己本身總處的意見會認為，這些可能排除上我們會認為不適當，但是……"],["王委員義川：那除了這些排除，還有沒有別的？"],["張副人事長秋元：但是其他各個領域的人是不是贊同我們的看法，這個我們就沒有完全的把握，因為也有人主張把他放進去。"],["王委員義川：所以你們要去了解各個領域的狀況嘛。"],["張副人事長秋元：因為這個涉及到各院嘛，就算在行政院也還涉及到地方政府，就是牽涉的範圍的確是比較大。"],["王委員義川：好，那我是不是建議這樣？接下來如果這個案子，行政院相關的部會也要提相關的案子進來討論的話，我是建議是不是就用公職員財產申報的政務人員為基礎，然後看哪一些認為應該要剔除……"],["張副人事長秋元：好，委員的意見我們會帶回去參考。"],["王委員義川：對，進行這樣的討論是不是會比較容易聚焦。"],["張副人事長秋元：是。"],["王委員義川：不然這樣整個都開花了，搞不清楚現在要設定的範圍，掛一漏萬或者是牽連無辜，把一些不應該納進來的也納進來，有些人一時興起說那一種職位也要納進來，有一些沒提到就忘了他，其實他也有必要納入。這一塊再請你們進行相關的研議，用最快的時間再把他送到院裡頭、立法院裡頭來讓我們進行相關的討論，好不好？"],["張副人事長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：好。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}