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我們請主記長 沈記長還有外交部跟法務部 陳主記長 陳司記長外交部次長外交部 部長沒有來嗎部長出國那個 法務部部長法務部正部長正名簽 正部長也來嗎"},{"start":31.025,"end":43.041,"text":"我想先請問一個最根本的問題這個636億這個部分當初我們審議是有給地方性補助款沒有問題吧 主席長我們有給地方嘛 對不對總統有沒有明令公佈"},{"start":45.253,"end":60.409,"text":"有 不是在公布的時候我們就已經刪減了就刪減636不是不是公布的時候我有看到總統令喔他是第25項然後636地方縣市政府一般補助款喔他明明白寫這幾個字喔不是那裡面他有寫要我們自行調整刪減636不是"},{"start":65.254,"end":78.676,"text":"6這個錢是有名的那一條我們是沒有刪的你好不管你現在把它刪掉了沒有不是把它刪掉你把它挪用了然後這是又就是不給地方政府然後現在又要來就是說又漏票要挾我們就一定要追加了追加這個用"},{"start":78.916,"end":106.051,"text":"因為他本身他就規定我要刪減2076那2076裡面呢統籌了不穩939那穩939能夠按標準刪減的就是有時間有限了沒關係因為我們想說好這一次如果我們通過這個636億啦齁這個有溝通齁那這個就是說會不會你們又再一次如果我們沒有通過這個130而已這不是有130而已嗎然後如果我們不通過這130你會不會又把這個錢挪用啊"},{"start":107.151,"end":120.496,"text":"我們這次如果通過如果我們這次不通過130億你會不會再把我們地方政府要給地方政府630億再挪用一次你會不會再進行調整大聲一點這次的追加現在我們講現在我就講現在現在630億如果給你過130億不給你過你會再挪去用嗎會把630億再移去給132億用嗎"},{"start":133.559,"end":143.113,"text":"會不會 不會 蛤 不會 肯定不會喔肯定不會喔 那如果之前有我想問法務部啦 還有司法院喔這個如果公務人員沒有依法刑 他審計長有來嗎"},{"start":145.523,"end":172.247,"text":"公務員如果沒有依法行政對不對總統明令公布的法令沒有按照做預算或是在預算過程中沒有按照預算來支給來使用預算的話這樣有違背什麼法令公務人員要依法行政吧如果有涉及到刑事不法當然有告訴高發或者是自首或其他的情形式的話那檢察官大人可以依法來支辦這刑訴數228條就要看有沒有成立"},{"start":174.417,"end":187.66,"text":"如果有犯罪嫌疑的話 根據刑事訴訟那是不是公務員使用這個公帑是不是應該依法使用當然是依法行政嘛那是不是涉及犯罪犯罪個案認定這個我沒辦法幫你講講那個具體的好 謝謝你 來 那個審計長那他這種自己挪用這個預算的這個行為我們到時候你要怎麼審計啊"},{"start":195.863,"end":213.675,"text":"我們是監督預算執行對對對他已經這樣執行了到時候你們怎麼來做都要照預算來執行是沒錯應該照預算但他已經沒有的話你到時候怎麼做因為我們會看情節是怎麼樣的話我們會來處理移送給相關機關嘛比如說檢調單位嘛好那我想請教外交部這是追加的預算喔"},{"start":219.737,"end":223.12,"text":"其他可以休息最佳的預算裡頭你們增加了你們原來319億經過3減剩305你們又追加20億所以你們超補了7億多做什麼作用這裡頭包括行政院有超補31億然後海委會有超補4億他都跟我們講合理的理由外交部7億多做什麼主要做什麼報告委員在迴邊方面是那個住外人員的戶調"},{"start":247.55,"end":269.218,"text":"以前不用戶雕嗎那為什麼現在比原來的預算比114年度的預算又多了7億多比你原來那一邊的多7億多新增那一部分今天有通過健保就住外人要付錢多7億多就對了 說這7億多是健保就對了沒關係我可以一個 那是主要項目健保良益嘛"},{"start":271.14,"end":279.634,"text":"然後外管租金也增加那你原來去年在編的時候沒有嗎來 你給我一個完整的說明因為我們時間有限 你給我完整的說明好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1340,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（13時22分）謝謝主席。請主計長、審計長還有外交部及法務部。"],["主席：請陳主計長、陳審計長、外交部次長……"],["陳委員玉珍：外交部部長沒有來嗎？"],["主席：外交部部長出國。"],["陳委員玉珍：法務部鄭部長有來嗎？"],["主席：請法務部鄭部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想先請問一個最根本的問題，這636億的部分，當初我們審議是有給地方性補助款，沒有問題吧！主計長，我們有給地方嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：總統有沒有明令公布？"],["陳主計長淑姿：在公布的時候我們就已經刪減了，就刪減636億……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是。公布的時候，我有看到總統令喔！它是第二十五項，636億的地方縣市政府一般補助款，它明明白白寫這幾個字喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。那裡面有寫要我們自行調整刪減636億。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是。那一條我們是沒有刪的，好！不管，你現在把它刪掉了，不是把它刪掉，你把它挪用了，就是不給地方政府，現在又要來，就是當成肉票要脅我們一定要追加……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是挪用，因為它本身就規定要刪減2,076億，這裡面包含統籌的939億，我們939億能夠按標準刪減就只有……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，因為我們想說，好！這一次如果我們通過這636億，這有溝通，就是你們會不會又再一次……如果我們不通過這132億，你們會不會又把這個錢挪用啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們這都以逐項來審查。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果我們這次不通過132億，你們會不會再把要給地方政府的632億再挪用一次？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，這是因為當初有通案刪減……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們會不會再自行調整？大聲一點。這次的追加……"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初是因為你們有通案刪減……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們講現在，如果這636億給你們過，132億不給你們過，你們會再挪去用嗎？會把632億再移去給132億使用嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：會不會？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：肯定不會喔！如果之前有……我想要請教法務部，還有司法院喔！如果公務人員沒有依法行政……審計長有來嗎？公務員如果沒有依法行政，總統明令公布的法令沒有按照做，或是在預算過程中沒有按照規定來支給及使用預算的話，這樣有違背什麼法令？公務人員要依法行政吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有涉及到刑事不法，當然有告訴、告發，或者是自首或其他情事的話，檢察官當然可以依法來偵辦，這是刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條，要看有沒有成立……"],["陳委員玉珍：我聽不見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有犯罪嫌疑的話，根據刑事訴訟法……"],["陳委員玉珍：公務人員使用公帑是不是應該依法使用？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然是依法行政嘛！是不是涉及犯罪，個案認定。"],["陳委員玉珍：對吧，應該要吧！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法幫你講具體的情形。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝你。審計長，這一種自己挪用預算的行為，你們到時候要怎麼審計啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是監督預算執行。"],["陳委員玉珍：對！但如果他們已經這樣執行了，到時候你們怎麼來做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：相關機關都要照預算來執行。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，沒錯。應該照預算執行，但他們已經沒有的話，你到時候怎麼做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會看情節是怎麼樣再來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：移送給相關機關嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：比如檢調單位嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，其他官員可以回座休息。我想請教外交部，這次追加的預算裡，你們增加了，原來是319億，經過刪減剩305億，你們又追加20億，所以你們超補了七億多，做什麼作用啊？這裡包括行政院有超補31億、海委會有超補4億，大家都要給我們合理的理由，外交部的七億多主要做什麼？"],["吳次長志中：報告委員，在回編方面是駐外人員的互調。"],["陳委員玉珍：以前不用互調嗎？"],["吳次長志中：要啊！駐外人員要……"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！為什麼現在比114年度的預算又多了七億多？比原來編的多七億多。"],["吳次長志中：那是回編的部分，新增的那一部分是今年有通過健保的相關規定，就駐外人員要付健保費，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：多七億多就對了？這七億多是用在健保就對了？沒關係，請說。"],["吳次長志中：那是主要項目。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是健保嘛？"],["吳次長志中：健保是2億；另外外館租金也增加，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們原來去年在編的時候是沒有的。來，你給我一個完整的說明。"],["吳次長志中：因為物價上漲……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我時間有限，你給我完整的說明。"],["吳次長志中：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["吳次長志中：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢，請吳政次事後再給陳玉珍委員一個補充報告。","現在請羅美玲、羅美玲、羅美玲、羅美玲委員不在。","請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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