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沈議長請教在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面有交易憑證不正確甚至有不法金額超過六千萬元經濟我們監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴三個人農業部不管是部長 市長 司長 科長 董事長全部都牽結不起訴你認為合理嗎"},{"start":162.029,"end":180.84,"text":"這是國家的體制因為我審計部發現的問題有違法施質依照審計法我送檢調如果有施質或者效能不彰我送監察院監察院檢調這一次有起訴我尊重司法的"},{"start":182.502,"end":204.016,"text":"市長我們可不可以請教一下當初超私雞蛋爭議的時候審計部的資料告訴我們說是損失至少有這個六千萬元不法金額而損失納稅人的錢是超過五億以上而這五億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嗎"},{"start":206.142,"end":218.866,"text":"對比這樣子不管是不法金額六千萬或者是我們損失五億以上就到最後只有下面的同仁來做負責上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責你覺得以實務經驗來講這樣合理嗎"},{"start":220.862,"end":240.683,"text":"這一個因為是書法的偵查權我們尊重書法偵查權那損失的預算該誰負責損失我們移送給監察院監察院糾正了農業部並彈劾了他的主辦書的書長還有他的相關同仁沈市長有沒有看到最近的一個新聞"},{"start":242.606,"end":255.42,"text":"這個清潔隊台北市清潔隊員回收價值32塊的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女就會依貪污治罪條例法定五年以上有期徒刑來去被起訴"},{"start":256.53,"end":274.006,"text":"那結果這一個超失忌但全國那麼大關注審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了是不法金額有六千萬五億以上的一個損失結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴癥結而不是用貪汙自罪條例會不會覺得雙重標準非常諷刺因為"},{"start":275.729,"end":293.822,"text":"他啟示的人員大概就是廠商還有細產會的人所以官員沒有任何的責任從上到下我相信連審計部門 法務部門所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦"},{"start":295.417,"end":303.981,"text":"不客氣的講那是國難結果有人在這仇中發國難財結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責沈記長"},{"start":308.138,"end":332.188,"text":"這一個因為是國家有國家的體制因為我們的審計法是發現不法或者發現效能不彰或者發現失足所以您覺得這一次這樣的起訴你可以接受嗎以我們這樣子審計資料提出來的你可以接受因為這個是國家的體制我要做尊重"},{"start":333.291,"end":357.746,"text":"你不能只是尊重啊沈議長因為我已經做好的第一關他一種名義就講了如果說有任何的預算被濫用了那我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法讓該負責任的應該負責因為是這樣因為我們有三這個部分我們發現了剛剛委員有講單計好像和企業規定不合我們已經刪減他兩億七千多萬這兩億七千多萬除了減掉"},{"start":362.589,"end":363.73,"text":"我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打"},{"start":383.968,"end":402.049,"text":"蒼蠅不敢打老虎只敢對清潔隊員32塊電鍋就用貪污治罪條例結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情卻是高高舉起輕輕放下好你竟然有提到是說這有可能減掉的部分那另外我再請教就業安定基金"},{"start":403.376,"end":428.399,"text":"剪掉相對來講比較沒有直接的關係因為審計部分有特別點出來就業安定基金決算裡面用途關聯性不高應該予以收回有高達7224萬對吧對好那這個7224萬但是沒想到勞動部居然講是說他要用人民納稅前編列公務預算來回補這就業安定基金沈議長你可以同意嗎"},{"start":429.727,"end":455.636,"text":"這個因為我們認為關聯性不高勞動部要逐項查明如果因為其中啊也有送檢調的我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會能不能去拍影片做大內宣能不能去裝潢辦公室這個他勞動部要逐項查明逐項查明以後啊我們他會報如果"},{"start":456.556,"end":479.635,"text":"他是公務用途他會報行政院行政院會要不要給他編列預算這個由行政院決定大院會不會通過這個由大院決定那至於他要我們希望他基金和公務要把他劃分清楚這以免以後你們是把關預算執行的單位"},{"start":480.396,"end":508.022,"text":"那既然預算被這樣濫用了這樣的一個預算其實用途完全不符合我們也看到這樣的狀況了不管是開演唱會不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃一支影片變成五支然後分散來去做核銷那麼請教7224萬這個應該是跟這個執行者就是所謂的這些部長 司長來去做追查還是要由公務預算來買單"},{"start":509.741,"end":512.737,"text":"這個我們第一個要先追查他那些有沒有私用"},{"start":513.662,"end":537.814,"text":"就已經使用了嘛 所以你們點出來這不符合這個剪掉因為你是被提名人我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們在現任6年把審計權交給你所以我們才想問的是說如果說遇到這樣的狀況到底是要行政部門去編列預算用人民納稅錢來回補還是應該由始作俑者來負起這個責任就這麼簡單"},{"start":540.035,"end":554.887,"text":"這一個是一個要因為這個是受及修法的問題所以我們移送檢調受及效能不彰的問題或者你濫用或者怎麼樣那我們已經移送監察案監察案"},{"start":556.392,"end":560.013,"text":"所以我們請勞動部查明他要審慎的來查明這個相關的現在就是官官相護嘛"},{"start":579.938,"end":597.888,"text":"因為我們看到官官相護 我們看到這個總共人民才會沒有辦法接受所以才期待一個獨立廉政專業創新的沈記長能夠點出問題我們還是會看這個收回的情形所以一句話 你認為是公務預算補可以還是認為應該要跟"},{"start":602.3,"end":628.841,"text":"這個要按根據用途事實查明的結果來作出處理你們的檢調報告都已經你們的審計報告都出來了他裝修辦公室可能是給公務用途公務用途他應該是用裝修漂漂亮亮的辦公室放盆栽或放景觀本來可能來 沈紀長您的辦公室裝修都多少錢我到我照任到現在要離開了"},{"start":630.697,"end":646.4,"text":"都沒裝修非常好本席在這一件因為我是續任所以我也沒有用我們辦公室裝修費用但是他用了100多萬裝修一個辦公室合理嗎我們說他這是公務用途嗎我們給他輸出有點胡亂我們請有點而已嗎我們已經請送請監察院調查沈議長是"},{"start":659.606,"end":687.112,"text":"專業獨立不要閃閃躲躲這是大家對你的期待不閃躲再來請教那個影片拍影片說金額宣傳金額用就案定基金來做宣傳推廣金額一直增加變成現在三年合計8億元都在做這個就業安定基金拿來拍影片這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題我們就想問尤其這裡面最貓膩的事情他是使用開口合約"},{"start":689.834,"end":707.595,"text":"開口合約相對來講比較緊急的狀況比如說有可能預期的天災搶休嘛我就明白的請您告訴國人也宣示一下未來各部會機關能夠用基金預算來做開口合約做文宣媒體通路採購嗎"},{"start":709.181,"end":725.983,"text":"勞動部已經承認以後不這樣做了不是勞動部啊 那會不會其他部會所以我現在要問的是審計部你們的專業立場是能不能允許行政部門用開口合約來做文宣媒體通路採購這個我們要看"},{"start":727.026,"end":730.551,"text":"還要看 看什麼要看這個整個採購性質是怎麼樣這一種的應該不必用開口碑應該用搶修搶險當時設計是說災難來了"},{"start":741.607,"end":766.774,"text":"趕快 就用開口合約趕快找人把他搶修搶寫是 這個大家都知道所以他們現在濫用開口合約這樣的一個制度所以 本席剛剛的問題再次請教我們發現了這個問題未來各部會各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購我們會注意這個問題什麼叫你們會注意 能不能啦這個因為是有"},{"start":769.639,"end":783.847,"text":"因為這個主管機關是這個採購的主管機關是工程會我在我審計部的立場主能說我會注意他是不是能這樣那你會注意他能不能這樣對不能嘛"},{"start":785.016,"end":804.748,"text":"原則上因為這個我每個每個華都有主管機關我不能超越這個機關你們都不行我這要做客觀公正的提名人提名人預算都是人民的納稅錢你身為審計把關的單位一句能與不能"},{"start":805.728,"end":827.672,"text":"我其實 你講出來不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳而是你講出來之後未來各行政機關就是一個宣示這不分藍綠 不分黨派 不分朝野應該是說過去有人有這樣濫用這個機構我們就要告訴他不能用了原則上沒有特別的理由我尊重委員的意見是嗎 不行嘛獨立 廉政 專業 創新對"},{"start":830.612,"end":857.706,"text":"不要逼本席再一次強調要變成是刻在這應該照理講刻在你心裡的這個都貼在我們所謂的牆壁上所以說不要讓本席失望你的詢答讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你六年法定義務支出我們剛剛都一直強調是說多給的要收回對不對一樣"},{"start":858.979,"end":882.174,"text":"應該要給的是不是應該要給法律上要給的就要給非常好法定義務支出一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出一般性補助款在他歸類的時候不管是4至391號4至520號解釋措施性的相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出是吧"},{"start":882.799,"end":910.061,"text":"主計總署也好 審計部也好都有這樣子在總預算裡面明白規定在總預算案的表件裡面它是列法定義務支出法定義務支出法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費即使行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以縮減或是刪除支出 是吧"},{"start":913.068,"end":937.517,"text":"因為他還要思考啊 還要辯解啊 沈記長對啦 這個是因為大案已經追加預算把這個問題解決了這不是解不解決問題 我現在問你的是實質的狀況你是沈記長 你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看本席現在是想請教 一般性補助款是法定義務支出"},{"start":938.68,"end":966.554,"text":"那是歸類在法定一出剛剛委員也很認真的看到了大法官的事件如果確定法律一律一律作出我們應該是中央今天可以說夠高興我就把你給拿回來我今天不高興我就不要編中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一然後把責任怪東怪西怪南怪北就是不檢討自己可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":968.15,"end":988.779,"text":"這個因為是在大院有給他一個636億的立法院可以刪除一般性補助款 立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎歷年來是沒有做過 對立法院沒有權利刪除法定義務支出憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後然後推給立法院這是邏輯問題啊"},{"start":992.731,"end":1015.136,"text":"審計長這個是應該照預算的編制或者預算的審議應該要照法定義務支出來支出要照法例的規定來執行法定規定來執行那就是意思的是法定義務支出不能去刪減嘛來那另外您剛提到依照法令規定來執行"},{"start":1017.686,"end":1031.533,"text":"軍人待遇條例警察人士條例也在立法院正式三讀通過並且總統已經公告行政院沒有附議那依法行政是不是應該編列預算"},{"start":1034.94,"end":1049.699,"text":"這個法例通過了不要忘記喔 您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法例來執選現在法例怎麼規定但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該他有他的安排什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算叫因為他預算的編註權法有相關的執行"},{"start":1052.422,"end":1074.709,"text":"施行事宜公告了 總統已經公告了在立法院 在行政院 一算的編制權在立行政院 這個是憲法的規定他有權利在行政院 但是依法啊他的權利也是法律給他的權利啊所以他是不是應該要依法行政所以他要把所有的條件 相關的法律條件啊 走完"},{"start":1076.446,"end":1099.76,"text":"他要把相關條件走完 什麼意思就是現在在釋憲 要請釋憲結束之後他才要編釋憲 或者是說 要復議這一個不難是說 還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大院的決議還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院的三讀通過法令並且總統公告沒有復議的決議"},{"start":1101.425,"end":1129.955,"text":"好 那現在他沒有尊重 他沒有編列完了 他是編住的時機 這是違法編住的時機沒有 他現在行政部門就直接講了我們支持中華民國的國軍我們支持警察消防所有人員的辛苦所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人士條例明年的中央政府總預算送進來一樣超過三兆元但是沒有把這個編列進去"},{"start":1131.215,"end":1139.433,"text":"行政部門講什麼 講說現在還要釋憲如果釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算那我才請教沈記長 預算要怎麼追加"},{"start":1141.206,"end":1166.616,"text":"因為預算還送來 大胭還沒有開始審議所以大胭審議的時候因為預算的審議前我們可不可以依法 論法 就法對 它應該按法的來編所以今天委員提出來這個問題所以大胭在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政 是吧"},{"start":1168.042,"end":1193.505,"text":"這個因為剛剛委員有講到他們可能有一點還在整個行政部門還在整個盤算盤算還可以怎麼盤算這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題所有事情都不依法行政都在盤算都在算計都在想的是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題您可以同意嗎"},{"start":1195.493,"end":1209.99,"text":"這一個我去評論 不同意因為我是審計的 是事後審計的是 就是因為你是審計就是因為我剛剛一直強調你要獨立 廉政 專業 創新所以本席才會依法 論法 就法請教您"},{"start":1210.771,"end":1235.856,"text":"因為你是被提名的所以本席尊重你本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政當人民給你權利要你做獨立廉政專業創新的時候你能不能不懼老虎講出真話而不是現在還要看風向台灣已經被政治耽誤太久了我們要的是依法行政所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責這整個流程"},{"start":1259.417,"end":1270.643,"text":"好 好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員的詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":37,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（15時12分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳審計長被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長及被提名人，你好。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：6年前也是在這個場合受到蔡英文前總統的提名，請教再次被提名會不會感覺到意外？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：應該是有點意外。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼說有點意外？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：年紀已大。"],["洪委員孟楷：年紀已大，但是國家需要你的時候還是要義不容辭，是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，因為在審計部可以為國家、為人民做一點事。"],["洪委員孟楷：為國家、為人民，立法部門如此，行政部門、審計部門也應當如此。我們看到過去審計部公布中央政府總預算的審核報告，也揭露不少預算缺失，包括兩兆多元的前瞻預算、特別預算施政不力，但還被監察院院長在會議中質詢、質問不應該引起外界的解讀落差。","審計長，我們想請教，再次被告知被提名為新任審計長的時候，有沒有特別交代你什麼？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你保證可以堅守審計權、為數字說話？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：把關預算，跟國人一起捍衛？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。國會會力挺審計權，因為我們要追討的是濫花、濫用的預算，預算當用則用、當省則省，該用的我們國會不會惡意的去阻撓，但是如果不當用的，或是濫花的，也一定要追討回來，您同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教審計長，在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面，有交易憑證不正確，甚至有不法金額超過6,000萬元，監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷，但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴3個人，農業部不管是部長、次長、司長、科長或是董事長全部都簽結不起訴，你認為合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是國家的體制，審計部發現有違法失職的問題，依照審計法我們會送檢調，如果有失職或者效能不彰，我們會送監察院，而檢調這次是否有起訴，我尊重司法的審判結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：我可不可以請教一下？當初超思雞蛋爭議的時候，審計部的資料告訴我們至少有6,000萬元不法金額，而損失納稅人的錢是超過5億以上，這5億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響，這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對的。"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是不法金額6,000萬或者是損失5億以上，結果到最後只有下面的同仁來負責，上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責。以實務經驗來講，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是司法的偵查權，我們尊重司法偵查權。"],["洪委員孟楷：那損失的預算該由誰負責？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有關損失的部分，我們已移送給監察院，監察院也糾正了農業部，並彈劾了他們主辦司的司長，還有相關同仁。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，有沒有看到最近的一個新聞，臺北市清潔隊隊員把回收價值32元的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女，就被依貪污治罪條例、法定5年以上有期徒刑起訴，結果這超思雞蛋爭議，全國那麼大關注，審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了，不法金額有6,000萬、5億以上的損失，結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴偵結，而不是用貪污治罪條例，會不會覺得雙重標準，非常諷刺？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為他們起訴的人員，大概就是廠商還有畜產會的相關人員。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以官員沒有任何的責任？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個部分是……"],["洪委員孟楷：從上到下？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是檢調的調查……"],["洪委員孟楷：我相信連審計部門、法務部門，所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦啊！我不客氣的講，那是國難啊！有人從中發國難財，結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責，沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責！審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是因為國家有國家的體制，我們審計是發現不法、發現效能不彰或者發現失職，我們的審計法……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這一次這樣的起訴，您覺得可以接受嗎？以你們提出這樣的審計資料，你可以接受？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是國家的體制，我要尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不能只是尊重啊！審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我已經做了我們的第一關……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們開宗明義就講了，如果有任何的預算被濫用了，我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法，讓該負責任的人負責？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：就像剛剛委員講的，因為這部分我們發現單據好像和契約規定不合，我們已經刪減他們兩億七千多萬，這兩億七千多萬，除了檢調查出來的六千多萬有問題以外，這兩億多還是要看他們的單據是不是符合法規規定，這是我們審計的職責。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打蒼蠅、不敢打老虎，只敢對清潔隊員32元電鍋用貪污治罪條例，結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情，卻是高高舉起、輕輕放下。好！被提名人既然有提到這可能有檢調的部分，那我另外再請教就業安定基金，這跟檢調相對來講比較沒有直接關係，因為審計部有特別點出來，就業安定基金決算裡面，有高達7,224萬因用途關聯性不高應該予以收回，對吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。針對這7,224萬，沒想到勞動部居然講要用人民納稅錢編列公務預算來回補就業安定基金。審計長，你可以同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們認為關聯性不高，所以勞動部要逐項查明，這其中有送檢調的，也有送監察院的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會？能不能去拍影片做大內宣？能不能去裝潢辦公室？不行嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：勞動部要逐項查明。逐項查明以後會報，如果是公務用途會報行政院，至於行政院要不要編列預算，由行政院決定；大院會不會通過，由大院決定。我們希望基金和公務要劃分清楚，以免以後……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，你們是把關預算執行的單位，因為預算被這樣濫用了，跟預算用途完全不符合，我們也看到這樣的狀況，不管是開演唱會，不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃，一支影片變成五支，分散做核銷。我們請教，7,224萬應該是跟執行者即向部長、司長做追查，還是要由公務預算來買單？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：第一個，我們要先追查他有沒有私用……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經使用了，所以你們才點出來不符合啊……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：檢調……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，因為你是被提名人，所以我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們再信任六年，把審計權交給你！因此我們想問的是，如果遇到這樣的狀況，到底是要行政部門去編列預算，用人民的納稅錢來回補？還是應該由始作俑者來負起責任？就這麼簡單。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這個涉及司法問題，所以我們移送檢調；也涉及效能不彰問題，或者濫用，或者怎麼樣，所以我們已經移送監察院，監察院也糾正了、也彈劾了，檢調……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然糾正了、既然彈劾了，是不是代表那個濫用預算的人有責任？是不是應該由他來回補預算給國家？而不是用人民的納稅錢去回補基金？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以我們請勞動部查明，它要審慎來查明相關的……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，現在就是官官相護嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們就是看到官官相護，就是看到這種狀況，人民才會沒有辦法接受，才會期待一個獨立、廉政、專業、創新的審計長能夠點出問題！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還是會看收回的情形，所以我們減列……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，一句話：你認為可以用公務預算補，還是認為應該要跟部長、司長追討？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個要根據用途事實查明結果來做處分。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經查明了，你們的審計報告都已經出來了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：雖然關聯性不高，但裝修辦公室可能是公務用途；公務用途應該是用……"],["洪委員孟楷：裝修成漂漂亮亮的辦公室，放盆栽或放景觀，本來可能……審計長，您的辦公室裝修花多少錢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：從我到任到現在要離開了都沒裝修。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好！本席在這一屆、因為我是續任，所以我也沒有使用辦公室裝修費用，但是他用了一百多萬來裝修一個辦公室，合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們說它……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是公務用途嗎？這算公務用途嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：支出有點浮濫，我們請……"],["洪委員孟楷：有點而已嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們已經送請監察院調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，要專業獨立，不要閃閃躲躲……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不閃躲！"],["洪委員孟楷：這是大家對你的期待。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不閃躲。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，用就業安定基金來拍影片做宣傳推廣，結果金額一直增加，現在變成三年合計8億元，都把就業安定基金拿來拍影片，這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題。我們就想問，因為這裡面最貓膩的是使用開口合約，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，我們查到用開口合約……"],["洪委員孟楷：相對來講，開口合約是比較緊急的狀況，譬如可能預期有天災……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：搶修、搶險。"],["洪委員孟楷：搶修嘛！好，我請您明白的告訴國人，也宣示一下，未來各部會機關可以用基金預算來做開口合約、做文宣媒體通路採購嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：勞動部已經承認以後不會這樣做了。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是勞動部，會不會有其他部會？所以我現在要問審計部，你們的專業立場能不能允許行政部門用開口合約來做文宣媒體通路採購？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個要看。"],["洪委員孟楷：還要看什麼？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：要看整個採購性質是怎麼樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：看現在誰執政？看裡面拍得好不好？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般來說，這種的應該不必採用開口合約，應該用……當時的設計是：災難來了，趕快用開口合約、趕快找人來搶修、搶險。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這個大家都知道，所以他們濫用開口合約的制度。所以本席剛剛的問題再次請教審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們發現了這個問題，也請他們去改進。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來各部會、各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會注意這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼叫你們會注意？能不能啦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為採購法的主管機關是工程會，在我審計部的立場只能說我會注意它是不是能這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：你會注意它能不能這樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：原則上，因為每個法都有主管機關，我不能超越這個機關說你們都不行，我要做客觀公正的一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：被提名人！被提名人……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是，不敢當。"],["洪委員孟楷：預算都是人民的納稅錢……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是，我們都注意到……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今天身為審計把關的單位，一句能與不能，其實你講出來，不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳，而是你講出來之後，未來對各行政機關就是一個宣示，這不分藍綠、不分黨派、不分朝野……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：原則上……"],["洪委員孟楷：應該是說過去有人這樣濫用這個機制，我們就要告訴他不能用了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：原則上沒有特別的理由，我尊重委員的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！不行嘛！獨立、廉政、專業、創新……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要逼本席再一次強調，要變成是刻在……照理講，這個應該是刻在你心裡的……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們心裡的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個都貼在我們所有的牆壁上。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不要讓本席失望你的詢答，讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你6年。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為各有分際。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來是法定義務支出，我們剛剛都一直強調的是多給的要收回，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣，應該要給的是不是應該要給？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：法律上要給的就要給。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好！法定義務支出，一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般性補助款在歸類的時候……"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是釋字391號、釋字520號解釋，措施性相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出，是吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計總處也好，審計部也好，都有這樣的在總預算裡面明白規定。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：在總預算案的表件裡面，它是列法律義務支出。"],["洪委員孟楷：法定義務支出，法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費，即行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以緊縮或刪減的支出，是吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個因為它……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個還要思考、還要辯解啊？審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對啦，因為大院已經追加預算把這個問題解決了。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是解不解決的問題，我現在問你的是實質的狀況，你是審計長，你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看，本席現在只是想請教，一般性補助款是法定義務支出，可以刪減嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它是歸類在法律義務支出，剛剛委員很認真的看到了大法官的釋憲，如果確定是法律義務支出，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以可以刪減嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：應該是各部門都要遵守……"],["洪委員孟楷：中央今天可以說我高興就把它給拿回來、我今天不高興就不要編，中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一，然後把責任怪東、怪西、怪南、怪北，就是不檢討自己，可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個因為是大院有給它一個636億的……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院可以刪除一般性補助款？立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：歷年來是沒有這樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：不行嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院沒有權力刪除法定義務支出，憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後，然後再推給立法院？這是邏輯問題啊！審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個應該照預算的編製或者預算的審議，應該要照這個原則來執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：照法定義務支出來支出？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：要照法律的規定來執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：法定的規定來執行？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：意思就是法定義務支出不能刪減嘛！","另外，您剛剛提到依照法令規定來執行，軍人待遇條例、警察人事條例也在立法院正式三讀通過，並且總統已經公告，行政院沒有提覆議，依法行政是不是應該編列預算？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個法律通過了……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要忘記喔，您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法律來執行喔！現在法令怎麼規定？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，要依法律，但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該有它的安排。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算有它的安排？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為它有預算的編製權。"],["洪委員孟楷：法有相關的執行、施行日期……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：預算的編製權在……"],["洪委員孟楷：公告了、總統已經公告了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：預算的編製權在行政院，這個是憲法的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：權力在行政院，但是要依法啊！這個權力也是法律給它的權力啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它要依法、它要依法，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是不是應該要依法行政？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以它要把所有的條件，相關的法律條件走完，如果走完確定……"],["洪委員孟楷：它要把相關的條件走完，什麼意思？就是現在在釋憲，要等釋憲結束之後才要編？是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：釋憲或者是說要覆議……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，可以這樣子解釋法令嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個本來是說還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大院的決議。"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院三讀通過的法令，並且經總統公告後沒有覆議的決議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，現在它沒有尊重、沒有編列，這是不是違憲？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：編製的時機……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是違法？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：編製的時機……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！現在行政部門就直接講啦，我們支持中華民國的國軍，我們支持警察、消防所有人員的辛苦，所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人事條例，但明年度的中央政府總預算送進來，一樣超過3兆元，但是並沒有把這個編列進去啊！而行政部門講什麼？講說現在還要釋憲，要等釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算，所以我才請教審計長，預算要怎麼追加？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為預算送來後大院還沒有開始審議，所以大院審議的時候，因為預算的審議權……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我們可不可以依法論法、就法……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，它應該按法來編，所以今天委員提出來的這個問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為這樣子，所以你不要忘記你剛剛講到應該要依法行政……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以大院在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政，是吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個，因為剛剛委員有講到，他們可能有一點還在……整個行政部門還在盤算、盤整……"],["洪委員孟楷：還可以怎麼盤算？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：還要釋憲……"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題，所有事情都不依法行政，都在盤算、都在算計，想的都是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好，沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題，您可以同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：不同意？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我不去評論，因為我是審計、是事後審計權。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，就是因為你是審計，就是因為我剛剛一直強調，你要獨立、廉政、專業、創新，所以本席才會依法論法、就法的來請教您……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你是被提名人，所以本席尊重您，本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政。當人民給你權力要你做獨立、廉政、專業、創新的時候，你能不能不懼老虎講出真話，而不是現在還要看風向……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我不看風向，因為這整個流程……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣已經被政治耽誤太久了！我們要的是依法行政，所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：現在整個流程還在大院審議，還沒有到執行，也還沒有到……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院可以增加預算嗎？不行啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：但是可以提出……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院不可以增加預算，所以才要行政部門編列預算，但現在連編都沒編，這才是最大的問題嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以可以決議意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我們期待你真的發揮你的專業，不用看風向。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：做好過去6年你做的事情，謝謝。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長，謝謝。","接下來請陳昭姿委員詢問，郭國文委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}