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我知道我們審計部其實在秉持三大功能落實監督 強化洞察 邁向潛戰接下來這六年要朝向智慧審計 永續審計 韌性審計跟共振戰志這四大面向來完成可是當我們又有新的一個面向要發展之前我們就回顧舊的這一個三大的目標功能有沒有達成"},{"start":50.424,"end":75.031,"text":"就過去來說的話基本上整個審計部有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告過去這兩年但是這兩年當中其實延續我過去在地方政府在參考你們地方的審計處的報告當中確實都羅列得非常清楚報告寫得洋洋灑灑但是都有一個習慣就是最後的結語都很溫和"},{"start":76.656,"end":84.84,"text":"结局是什么呢 建议改善结局是什么呢 就是通盘检讨感觉上都不痛不痒 隔穴骚痒"},{"start":86.496,"end":109.678,"text":"要說又不敢說 點到為止然後就有一種現象最近稍微有一點改變就是本席當初就要你做一個改善所得分配跟低薪的問題專報的時候你就有直指問題的核心譬如講你那時候就提到產算法的部分有關於這一個前提過於嚴格或者學費的補助的時候比較有感 應該持續推動"},{"start":111.345,"end":127.902,"text":"本席心目中的這個審計報告當中應該要直指核心根據問題如何解決而不是解釋問題所以說我是覺得你接下來要續任這六年的審計長我除了恭喜之外有更高的期待"},{"start":128.763,"end":146.45,"text":"你要如何改變這個文化這非常關鍵啊不要讓人家淪為這個官官相負啊你審計部所扮演的角色就是在做一個內部的監督嘛對不對 情長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化所以要求"},{"start":148.494,"end":169.813,"text":"會照委員會意見來做 像所得分配委員很關心我們13年來是查後來行政院就成立了經濟發展委員會他裡面把低薪的問題把一些房價的問題住宅的問題都放進去了那我們說現在住宅整個政府我們看觸及到差不多290萬戶"},{"start":172.996,"end":201.062,"text":"對啊 所以這個就政府都有在做沈院長你講的就沒有錯啦當你指出問題核心的時候行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛這凸顯你的角色重不重要凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要所以不要再寫那些空洞的隔靴搔癢的 什麼通盤減少什麼要有所改善現在我們都改了就會改 一樣全部都改 你都改你只有部分改而已 你還改的不夠啦"},{"start":201.542,"end":204.643,"text":"你只有那個部分改 要繼續改全面改你的角色很關鍵你接下來還要幹6年"},{"start":221.489,"end":248.271,"text":"審計部還有什麼問題呢 我跟你講審計部還有輕輕放下抓小放大 我跟你說你們審計部啊 發現問題之後啊就送哪裡 送監察院嘛那監察院做什麼監察院多數是對機關提出糾正比較少對人去進行懲處 你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡發放到各行政機關嘛"},{"start":249.733,"end":260.141,"text":"放放到原來選擇單位 他們不處理結果是如何我就用結果讓你來做討論你就看113年決算審計報告為例1 審計部陳報監察院的案件當中一共250件結果一送檢調並糾正一件"},{"start":276.786,"end":291.918,"text":"另外要求你查明處分的113件你已經要求查明處分了各機關實際處分37件乘除124人而中間記大過了兩個記大過 兩個小過120個申屆 高達95%好了 你要求的結果"},{"start":305.643,"end":334.254,"text":"就輕輕放下嘛對不對你高高舉起嘛輕輕放下你站在一個行政部門的檢察官類似的角色當中你要求要明文查處就是說呢你求情量刑看求情都很重但是量刑很低是不是你定罪利太低是不是你有問題你有沒有思考過這樣的結果有沒有實質上達到什麼具體的改善的可能"},{"start":335.376,"end":361.371,"text":"我們和監察院合作是還蠻好的啦一些縱效我送給他的 差不多25%有糾正也有彈劾這個大概我和監察院的我有去注意到這個問題但是華裡面我們發現他有維瓦失足我們也有直接送的喔我們送了兩千多件喔但是你要求他們那你以後就直接送就好啦"},{"start":362.871,"end":379.735,"text":"那你為什麼要繞一個圈讓他自行去處理我就說直接你自己也看到了從你決算審視報告當中你的比例上我再舉一個例子你112年的時候總決算的時候你提出619項的審計意見到了113年"},{"start":384.829,"end":397.217,"text":"總決算的時候這619件當中還有153件他通知他們再次改善怎麼會這樣怎麼會你要求他再處理的"},{"start":399.057,"end":419.994,"text":"還有四分之一不處理這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎這代表你的權威性不足嘛對不對你要求的他根本沒有在多大的程度在重視你審計部的意見嘛那你審計部寫這麼多意見是做我們比賽嗎這樣啦 這刑事機關大部分會改但是有的要給他時間"},{"start":421.452,"end":438.743,"text":"所以我們也要看在行之淵有的是要立法有的要修改規則所以一年我們查到他修改規則的兩千多件我相信你有一些是需要修改相關的法治但是就這樣的結果你有沒有想過"},{"start":439.963,"end":468.879,"text":"如何去改變外在說你高高舉起輕輕放下的這一種常態性的這種狀況你有沒有想說你新任的這個未來的六年的這個省紀長的角色當中有沒有可能改善啦本席要問你的重點是這個啦這個我們會照委員的意思來改善好 要做喔我看你要怎麼做喔另外一個部分喔還有一個部分啊就是呢變成是抓小放大跟基層在受罰"},{"start":470.29,"end":474.408,"text":"政治責任是誰做的為什麼最後擊沉我講具體的意思啊"},{"start":475.322,"end":502.95,"text":"譬如講 你從這一個啊這個113年決算比較嚴重的財務上的這個為師啊移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看一共幾件 七件中央一件 就是警政署的這採購案地方六件 三件文書登載不實涉案的有村長 縣府跟公所人員還有一件呢 是大學的詐領案你看 這不是抓小放大嗎"},{"start":504.587,"end":511.085,"text":"就是專門看起來都是小件事情啊你看還有一件雲林我國中荷霄不死都是三七成人員啊"},{"start":512.557,"end":537.528,"text":"然後呢 金額都不高啊都是被你地方審計單位移送的啦你移送的就是這些啦我們大一半 小一半不能二小 我不為什麼大一半 小一半我現在用數位審計啊 那個微標我一查查到兩千多件啊 那個刑事處啊那個沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊我講的這些"},{"start":539.41,"end":554.825,"text":"市長 你剛好講到小的沒有講到大的你未來的數位審計是未來啦我現在跟你談的是現實啊你寫的報告當中我幫你整理出來啦好 照我們會注意就只有抓小放大嘛對啊 我也放大"},{"start":555.265,"end":577.557,"text":"不會放大我們對大的更會注意好 更大會注意好 我看你怎麼注意好不好你說剛剛我現在不諱言我們就說救安基金災難黨一直追打救安基金我就談救安基金的就好西融的這個救安基金當中你們當初事情爆發之後你才發現"},{"start":581.019,"end":595.129,"text":"10110年到113年有5000多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大對不對但是呢100年到112年的決算審計報告當中你裡頭都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊"},{"start":596.909,"end":619.929,"text":"你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊你就注重這個計畫的執行面的審計而已啊才會導致後面問題越來越大條啊審計功能不彰的結果就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊這你沒有責任嗎這個就是什麼 沈議長這是本席剛剛跟你討論的抓小放大的結果啦"},{"start":621.201,"end":628.623,"text":"怎麼改善 怎麼面對你用規則給人力了這是大小的問題啦不是人力的問題啦這是心態的問題啦你用AI就可以解決這些問題你不要一直推給"},{"start":648.727,"end":676.742,"text":"未來的事情你要先面對過去的錯誤才能考慮到未來的解方這是面對過去的錯誤發現要這樣做這是具體的事情你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大好你剛剛講說什麼你的目標是大一半小一半是不是我們通抓通通大一半小一半只要有不分大小全部都抓我有財務紀律我們都等著看等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣好 那你就查一件你查一件給本席看好"},{"start":678.376,"end":688.062,"text":"我給你看一件本席 雷聲大雨點小審計部真的是作文比賽這個作文題目是什麼 台中大理垃圾山"},{"start":692.239,"end":714.217,"text":"34萬噸的垃圾他需要17年才能清理完成7月份台中審計處的時候已經介入事業費不減反增清潔隊弊案連連你去發現問題你要追查到底你就這個例子你去查百億的大弊案焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億"},{"start":718.888,"end":741.002,"text":"你17年要花多少錢要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山你們也查到問題喔你們不是沒有查喔你有查到問題喔一 預算暴增50幾億審計部寫的二 清潔對內上百次偏離路線違法收運事業廢棄物"},{"start":745.339,"end":765.532,"text":"還有三 市府把一般垃圾丟大裡卻用低於價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物 圖利數千萬這問題你有沒有發現 還不少這問題是不是你們寫的這是我們台中審計處查的台中寫的當你們發現問題的時候你們發現問題 你知道你台中怎麼寫嗎"},{"start":772.13,"end":789.657,"text":"你怎麼寫 問題還不少耶你們最後想說 你們也覺得看起來內情不太單純但最後你們叫什麼叫台中市政府檢討叫台中市政府檢討而已耶欸 沈議長100億耶這事情是大條還是小條 我就問你嘛"},{"start":791.172,"end":817.538,"text":"這個AI查到了你們心態是怎麼講嘛用AI可以解決這個問題嗎台中市的垃圾啊是有一點隱憂啦用AI可以解決這個問題你剛剛不是說用AI要處理嗎你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎你這個沒有AI你都查到了啊你查到結果你叫市政府檢討100億的幣啊你用市政府檢討這AI可以解決的嗎 審計長我請問你這個是用人工查的用科技用人工查的什麼"},{"start":818.538,"end":844.53,"text":"這不是用AI查的不是用AI查的 用人工就查了啊可是那最後寫的是叫你市政府檢討而已啊這一般啦 他一定要檢討啦那要檢討要知道這個案子怎麼樣嗎我們看到問題 一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔對啊 你就是這樣子而已啊那你不是可以直接移送嗎然後你再看看 最後的結果是怎樣幾位清潔人員被判刑"},{"start":846.172,"end":868.673,"text":"台市這麼大條 整百個弊案發生在台中期發生在這噴色沙 結果你叫人檢討而已社會到高台會過 你心計薄你在做行刑內部監督這個案子累積了多少年從35億變85億足足增加50幾億 共要300多億"},{"start":871.926,"end":899.351,"text":"花十七年的時間才能清允的垃圾山要再花公帑三十七億組長你不覺得這個案子大不大我問你嘛那你後續要怎麼處理嘛這麼大的案子你要一個建樹建林啦你要直接找檢調連政署查清楚寫那麼多報告有什麼用問題你都發現啊怎麼解決這不是高高舉起輕輕放下就是年生大於年小嘛對不對"},{"start":900.506,"end":929.961,"text":"未來六年你是個角色啊我們會注意我們會注意這樣的一個情景再檢討一次嗎好好檢討 再檢討 繼續檢討你會注意有什麼特別的處理方式嗎 你就講啊我們還要整個了解 因為這是在台中市審計處的你這報告寫那麼久了 你還要進行了解你要怎麼處理嘛 你現在想嘛你要怎麼處理嘛 怎麼了解"},{"start":930.979,"end":958.121,"text":"了解有什麼用 了解問題有什麼用解決問題才有用啊你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段問題才會越來越大啦這個公開打你們臉欸你審計完全沒有發揮效果 你知道嗎看地方出現這麼多問題我再講給你聽最近的財政收支法新法的財政收支法接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員怎麼說"},{"start":960.663,"end":966.197,"text":"你想喔 我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後"},{"start":967.421,"end":988.137,"text":"按照目前的狀況我先講給你聽你現在查到很多的地方問題地方的執行能力就出現一個很大的問題我舉一個例子113年的時候地方的這個決算剩餘款是716億但是實質上地方當初的政府預算短差是553億簡單的講這一來一回當中就有1269億"},{"start":996.226,"end":997.827,"text":"12691 這12691沒有辦法去執行這第一個 這第一個問題因為你人員不變 就這樣子 12691"},{"start":1006.018,"end":1035.311,"text":"到接下來整個財政收支發文法之後呢地方上會多拿多少多拿4165億啦你看這4165億再加上1269億他以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下人員不變的情況底下又多了4160多億你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊你的角色就是矿政財政紀律啊對不對"},{"start":1036.675,"end":1049.075,"text":"這是不是挑戰來了這整個問題是垂直分配出問題水平分配又出問題的情況底下以後地方政府有錢有錢的要死窮窮的要命"},{"start":1052.103,"end":1073.226,"text":"市長 你有沒有想過這個問題 接下來怎麼辦 怎麼面對這一個行政院已經在邀請各地方政府來行政院的事情 我在問你的事情如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦你不要推給行政院剛剛講的有一些分配不出氣財政部有這樣的一個說明"},{"start":1074.026,"end":1101.918,"text":"對整個的我們的財政的效益是有損失的你不要再跟我繞圈子了我知道你在跑運動圈我不想追你了目前的編制 預算的規模中央跟地方的市權都沒有調整是多了四一六五億以後市權如果再下放的話你這麼多人員沒有增加的話我看你怎麼執行你後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎 我跟你預言"},{"start":1102.762,"end":1113.943,"text":"就發紅包啦 大傻逼啦這種是最直接了當的啦這最有可能浪費公帑啦沈議長 本席提醒你啦你到底有沒有去面對這個問題你到底有沒有想過這個問題我現在就要問你這個問題啦"},{"start":1115.919,"end":1122.7,"text":"我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題但是你可能是相對的角色你要怎麼面對這可能衍生出來問題審計人員要如何增加人量"},{"start":1141.344,"end":1164.866,"text":"你了解我意思嗎所以我再跟你提醒一點相對是這種問題的話你要去思考本席提醒你 問你的問題就是要去思考未來的六年的省計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰但是你要面臨未來六年之前你要思考以前的六年以前的六年的地方預算你要自己好好的思考如何去進行一個總檢討"},{"start":1166.509,"end":1184.93,"text":"還有你要去思考新版的財法法可能帶來的什麼樣的衝擊那我希望你在這個情況底下站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支法可能造成的衝擊你要寫一份專案報告有沒有可能 沈院長有"},{"start":1186.562,"end":1211.892,"text":"可以用這份報告來思考過去六年到底地方政府的財政或中央政府財政你也可以寫啦到底出了什麼樣的問題啦這一部新版的財政收支發問法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題而你的審計部的角色地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應你應該要提早有所因應那這個報告你什麼時候寫給本席兩個月內兩個月喔"},{"start":1216.754,"end":1220.417,"text":"你如果提早寫出來的話有助於大家離去共識啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":352,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（15時54分）主席，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：審計長恭喜。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：過去6年來，知道審計部秉持三大功能，落實監督、強化洞察、邁向前瞻，而接下來6年，要朝向智慧審計、永續審計、韌性審計，共臻善治這四大面向來完成。可是當又有新的面向要發展之前，我們回顧舊的目標，三大功能有沒有達成？就過去來說的話，基本上整個審計部過去2年有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告，這2年當中，我沿用地方政府參考你們地方審計處的報告，裡面確實都羅列得非常清楚，報告寫得洋洋灑灑，但是都有一個習慣，就是最後的結語都很溫和，結語是什麼呢？建議改善，結語是什麼？通盤檢討，感覺上都不痛不癢、隔靴搔癢，要說又不敢說，然後點到為止。","有一種現象最近稍微有點改變，就是本席當初要你做改善所得分配跟低薪問題專報的時候，你就有直指問題的核心，譬如說那時候提到產創條例的部分，有關於這部分的前提過於嚴格；或是學費補助比較有感，應該持續推動。本席心目中的審計報告應該要直指核心，如何解決問題，而不是解釋問題，所以你接下來要繼續擔任6年的審計長，除了恭喜之外，我有更高的期待啊，你要如何改變這個文化，這非常關鍵，不要淪為官官相護。審計部所扮演的角色，就是在做一個內部的監督嘛，對不對？審計長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化，要求具體落實，有沒有可能？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我會照委員的意見來做，像所得分配，委員很關心。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們113年還是查，後來行政院就成立經濟發展委員會，把低薪的問題、一些房價的問題、住宅的問題都放進去了，現在整個政府觸及到的住宅差不多有290萬戶耶！"],["郭委員國文：對啊。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以這個政府都有在做。"],["郭委員國文：審計長你講的就沒有錯啦，當你指出問題核心的時候，行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["郭委員國文：凸顯你的角色重不重要？凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要？所以不要再寫那些空洞、隔靴搔癢的，什麼通盤檢討、什麼要有所改善。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們都改啦。"],["郭委員國文：一定要全部都改，你都改……你只有部分改而已，還改得不夠啦！更何況……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，像少子化，我們蒐集那個婚啦，結婚也很重要……"],["郭委員國文：你只有那個部分改，要繼續改，對不對？要擴大改、全面改。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你中央要跳出來啊，現在一個人發10萬啊。"],["郭委員國文：審計長你的角色很關鍵，你接下來還要幹6年。","審計部還有什麼問題呢？我跟你講，審計部還有輕輕放下、抓小放大。你們審計部發現問題之後，就送哪裡？送監察院。而監察院做什麼？監察院多數是對機關提出糾正，比較少對人去進行懲處，你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡？發放到各行政機關嘛，發放到原來的權責單位，他們不處理的話，結果如何？我就用結果來跟你討論。以113年決算審計報告為例，審計部陳報監察院的案件一共250件，結果移送檢調並糾正的1件，另外要求查明處分的113件，各機關實際處分了37件，懲處124人，而中間記大過的有2個、2個小過、120個申誡，申誡高達95%。你要求的結果，就輕輕放下嘛！對不對？你高高舉起嘛，輕輕放下，你站在類似行政部門的檢察官的角色當中，你要求明文查處，也就是說你求刑都很重，但是量刑很低，是不是定罪率太低？是不是你有問題？你有沒有思考過這樣的結果實質上有沒有達到什麼具體改善的可能？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們和監察院是合作得蠻好的，一些綜效，我送給它的差不多25%有糾正，也有彈劾，和監察院的合作，我有去注意到這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：你有注意到，那怎麼辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：但是我們發現有違法失職的，也有直接送的喔，我們送了兩千多件喔。"],["郭委員國文：但是你要求他們……那你以後直接送就好啦，對不對？為什麼要繞一個圈讓它自行去處理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有時候他……"],["郭委員國文：你自己也看到了嘛，從你的決算審計報告當中，我再舉一個例子，112年總決算的時候，你提出619項的審計意見，到了113年總決算的時候，這619件當中還有153件要通知他們再次改善，怎麼會這樣？怎麼會你要求它再處理了啊，還有四分之一不處理？這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎？這就代表你的權威性不足，對不對？你要求的，它根本沒有多大程度的在重視你審計部的意見嘛！那你審計部寫這麼多意見，是作文比賽嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這樣啦，行政機關大部分會改，但是有的要給它時間，所以我們也要看……有的要立法，有的要修改規則，所以歷年我們查到要修改規則的有兩千多件喔。"],["郭委員國文：我相信有一些是需要修改相關的法制啦！但是就這樣的結果，你有沒有想過如何去改變外在說你高高舉起、輕輕放下的這一種常態性的狀況？你有沒有想過在你未來6年審計長的角色當中，有沒有可能改善啦？本席要問你的重點是這個啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們會照委員的意思來改善。"],["郭委員國文：好，要做喔，我看你要怎麼做喔。","另外還有一個部分，就是變成抓小放大，基層在受罰，政策責任是誰的？為什麼最後是基層？我講具體的例子，譬如從113年決算比較嚴重的財務違失，被移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看，一共幾件？7件，中央1件就是警政署的採購案；地方6件，3件文書登載不實，涉案的有村長、縣府跟公所人員，還有一件是大學的詐領案，你看這不是抓小放大嗎？看起來都是小事情啊！還有一件雲林某國中核銷不實，都是這些基層人員啦，然後金額都不高，都是被地方審計單位移送的啦！你移送的就是這些啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們大也辦小也辦，不能因惡小而不為。"],["郭委員國文：什麼大也辦、小也辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我現在用數位審計啊！那個圍標我一查就查到兩千多件，行政處罰沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊！"],["郭委員國文：我講的這些……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你剛好講到小的，沒有講到大的。"],["郭委員國文：你的數位審計是未來啦，我現在跟你談的是現實啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我現在也在做了。"],["郭委員國文：你寫的報告當中，我幫你整理出來了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，這我們會注意。"],["郭委員國文：就只有抓小放大嘛！你會注意？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不會放大！我們對大的更會注意。"],["郭委員國文：好，更大會注意，我看你怎麼注意。我現在不諱言，我們就說就安基金，在野黨一直追打，我就談就安基金就好，當初謝宜容的就安基金事情爆發之後，你們才發現110年到113年有五千多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大，對不對？但是在110年到112年的決算審計報告當中都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們有提。"],["郭委員國文：你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊！你只有注重計畫執行面的審計而已，才會導致後面問題越來越大條。審計功能不彰的結果，就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊！這你沒有責任嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以……"],["郭委員國文：這個就是什麼？審計長，這就是本席剛剛跟你討論的，抓小放大的結果啦！怎麼改善？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員的……"],["郭委員國文：怎麼面對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們的人力是有限，所以我現在發展科技。"],["郭委員國文：你又歸責給人力了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我現在發展科技，我用數位審計、AI審計。"],["郭委員國文：這是大小的問題，不是人力的問題，這是心態的問題啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們現在用RPA，用機器流程自動化看這個事情。"],["郭委員國文：你用AI就可以解決這些問題？你用AI就可以查到這些問題？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為那個東西進來，我們有……"],["郭委員國文：你不要一直推給未來的事情，你要先面對過去的錯誤，才能考慮到未來的解方。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這就是面對過去的錯誤，發現要這樣做。"],["郭委員國文：這都是具體的事情。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：你剛剛講什麼，你的目標是怎樣？大也辦、小也辦，是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們通抓、通通。"],["郭委員國文：大也辦、小也辦……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們只要有……"],["郭委員國文：不分大小，全部都抓。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們有財務紀律，我們都通通……"],["郭委員國文：我等著看，等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：那你就查一件嘛！你查一件給本席看。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：本席給你看一件「雷聲大雨點小」的案子，審計部真的是作文比賽啦！這個作文題目是什麼？「臺中大里垃圾山」，34萬噸的垃圾需要17年才能清理完成！7月份臺中審計處已揭露：事業廢棄物不減反增，清潔隊弊案連連。你去發現問題喔！你要追查到底，就這個例子你去查。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：百億的大弊案，焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億，你17年要花多少錢？要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山。你們也查到問題，你們不是沒有查喔，你有查到問題喔！一、預算暴增五十幾億，審計部寫的；二、清潔隊上百次偏離路線違法收運事業廢棄物；還有三、市府把一般垃圾丟大里，卻用低於……價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物圖利數千萬，這個問題我們都發現了啊！還不少，這個問題是不是你們寫的？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是我們臺中審計處查的。"],["郭委員國文：對，臺中寫的啊！當你們發現問題的時候，那你知道你臺中的是怎麼寫嗎？你怎麼寫？問題還不少耶！你們最後想說，你們也覺得，這個看起來內情不太單純，但最後你們叫臺中市政府檢討。叫臺中市政府檢討而已耶！審計長，100億耶！這個事情是大條還是小條？我就問你嘛！這個AI查到了，你們心態上是這麼講嘛！你用AI可以解決這個問題嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：臺中市的垃圾是有一點隱憂。"],["郭委員國文：那你用AI可以解決這個問題……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們要處理它的……"],["郭委員國文：你剛剛不是說要用AI處理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不要幫忙……"],["郭委員國文：你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：來預警它啦！要趕快……"],["郭委員國文：這個沒有AI你都查到了啊！你查到的結果，你叫市政府檢討100億的弊案，你要市政府檢討，這是AI可以解決的嗎？審計長，我請問你。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這一個是用人工查的。"],["郭委員國文：什麼？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個不是用AI查的。"],["郭委員國文：不是用AI查的。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["郭委員國文：用人工查的，可是最後寫的是叫市政府檢討而已。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般它一定要檢討……"],["郭委員國文：先檢討？那之後這個案子有怎麼樣嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們看到問題，一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔！這個對你影響很大。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！你就是這樣子而已啊！那你不是可以直接移送嗎？然後你再看看最後的結果是怎樣？幾位清潔人員被判刑，事情這麼大條！100億的弊案發生在臺中市，發生在這個垃圾山，結果你叫人家檢討而已，社會交代得過去嗎？你審計部耶！對啊！你在做……內部監督耶！這個案子累積了多少年？從35億變85億，足足增加五十幾億，快要三倍多。花17年的時間才能清運的垃圾山，要再花公帑37億。審計長，你不覺得……這個案子大不大，我就問你嘛！那你後續要怎麼處理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這一個還滿爭議的。"],["郭委員國文：你看，這麼大的案子，你要見樹見林，你要直接找檢調、找廉政署查清楚，寫那麼多報告有什麼用？問題你都發現了啊！怎麼解決？這不是高高舉起、輕輕放下而已，就是雷聲大雨點小，對不對？未來6年你這個角色啊……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會注意。"],["郭委員國文：你們會怎樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會注意這樣的一個情景。"],["郭委員國文：注意？叫它再檢討一次嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員，這個當然……"],["郭委員國文：好好檢討！再檢討！繼續檢討！你會注意！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員的想法……"],["郭委員國文：你有什麼特別的處理方式，你就講啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還要整個了解，因為這是在……"],["郭委員國文：整個了解？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是在臺中市審計處的……"],["郭委員國文：你們的報告寫那麼久了，你還要進行了解？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是獨立……"],["郭委員國文：你要怎麼處理嘛？你現在想嘛！你要怎麼處理嘛？怎麼了解？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會找人……"],["郭委員國文：了解有什麼用？了解問題有什麼用？要解決問題才有用啊！你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段，問題才會越來越大啦！審計長，這個公開打你們臉耶！你們審計完全沒有發揮效果，你知道嗎？","看地方出現這麼多問題，審計長，我再講給你聽。最近新修的財政收支劃分法，接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員，怎麼說？我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後，按照目前的狀況，我先講給你聽，你現在查到很多的地方問題，地方的執行能力就出現一個很大的問題，我舉一個例子，113年的時候，地方的決算賸餘款是716億，但是實質上地方當初的政府預算短差是553億，簡單的講，這一來一回當中就有1,269億啦！這1,269億沒有辦法去執行啦！這是第一個問題，因為你人員不變，就這樣子。","接下來，整個財政收支劃分法之後，地方上會多拿多少？多拿4,165億，你看這4,165億再加上1,269億，它以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔！有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下，在人員不變的情況底下，又多了四千一百六十多億，你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊！你的角色就是控制財政紀律啊！對不對？這是不是挑戰來了？這整個問題是垂直分配出問題，水平分配又出問題的情況底下，以後地方政府有錢的會有錢得要死，窮會窮得要命，審計長，你有沒有想過這個問題？接下來要怎麼辦？怎麼面對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院已經在邀集各地方政府來……"],["郭委員國文：那是行政院的事情啦！我在問你的事情是如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦？你不要推給行政院啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個沒有修法，那剛剛講的有一些分配不出去，財政部有這樣的一個說明，那對我們整個的財政效益是有損……"],["郭委員國文：審計長，你不要再跟我繞圈子了啦！我知道你在跑運動圈，我不想追你了啦！目前的編制，預算的規模，中央跟地方的事權都沒有調整。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["郭委員國文：是多了4,165億啦！以後的事權如果再下放的話，你人員沒有增加的話，我看你怎麼執行？後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎？我跟你預言，就發紅包啦！大撒幣啦！這種是最直接了當的啦！這也最有可能浪費公帑啦！審計長，本席提醒你，你到底有沒有去面對這個問題？你到底有沒有想過這個問題？我現在就要問你這個問題啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們希望增加的錢先還債，如果像你剛剛講的撒幣或者是增加社福，我們是希望它能夠有賸餘或者是沒有負債。"],["郭委員國文：我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們也有注意到這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：當然修法是立法院本身所造成的結果，但是你可能是相對的角色，你要怎麼面對這個可能衍生出來的問題，審計人員要如何增加能量啦！你了解我的意思嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：所以我再跟你提醒一點，相對是這種問題的話，你要去思考，本席提醒你、問你的問題，就是要讓你思考未來6年的審計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰，但是你要面臨未來6年之前，你要思考以前的6年，以前6年的地方預算你要自己好好的思考，如何去進行一個總檢討，還有你要去思考新版的財劃法可能帶來什麼樣的衝擊，那我希望你在這種情況底下，站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支劃分法可能造成的衝擊，你要寫一份專案報告，有沒有可能？審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有。"],["郭委員國文：可不可以？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：可以。"],["郭委員國文：用這份報告來思考過去6年到底地方政府的財政，或是中央政府的財政你也可以寫，到底出了什麼樣問題。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：這一部新版的財政收支劃分法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題，而你審計部的角色、地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應？你應該要提早有所因應，這個報告你什麼時候要寫給本席？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：兩個月內。"],["郭委員國文：兩個月？可以稍微快一點嗎？你如果提早寫出來的話，有助於大家凝聚共識，可以嗎？45天可以嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，45天。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人陳審計長。審計長，喝個水，等你喝完水我們就繼續。","接下來賴士葆委員質詢完畢之後，我們會休息10分鐘。","現在請賴士葆委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}