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續任了老實講 英文叫做To my surprise我有一點詫異"},{"start":57.993,"end":83.969,"text":"你自己感覺怎麼樣賴總統在提名你的時候你心裡是什麼心理我因為想休息了所以沒有續任的打算原來沒有續任打算對 因為有替國家做一點事情已滿足了所以是有點驚喜"},{"start":86.547,"end":108.303,"text":"尊感還是有責任但是在審計部他有他審計的價值他可以為國家為人民做一點事所以你是驚喜驚喜不一定就很難形容"},{"start":111.822,"end":128.34,"text":"驚訝 驚訝不太像驚訝啦也不太說歡喜啦就是好像責任還沒有那個彈珠還沒有卸下我是有點驚訝啦因為在比如說疫苗的事情 雞蛋的事情你們的單位很敢提出一些數字很好"},{"start":131.408,"end":157.969,"text":"但是後來也沒有很驚訝因為你也是高高舉舉輕輕放下你的用事請辭也都是四平八穩也不太敢去得罪黨黨變成這樣了我們來看喔我們來看比如說最大條的事情最該你應該去auditing的就是卓榮泰院長他怎麼可以不依法行政"},{"start":159.318,"end":185.605,"text":"立法院我們韓院長這麼辛苦在主持垂直一敲三讀通過的法案他為什麼可以不編預算去年的總預算已經這樣編了已經這樣編了 禁法補償不列今年警察人員的待遇條例警校的一個他的退休的提高特別是軍人"},{"start":188.103,"end":197.871,"text":"每個月多3萬塊的經營條例他不變審計部就應該講話啦這個還在立法院的預算審理前請問你 你有沒有事情審理"},{"start":204.963,"end":233.418,"text":"我們沒有事前審議的失蹤審議沒有失蹤審議因為這個還在還沒有經過大案通過大案通過我們有會議警會那個這個還在大案的 這個是尊重大案的審議前我就問你 今年的預算114年他不按照不依法編列進場補償進場補償 你要怎麼辦這個部分 已經事後了"},{"start":234.792,"end":258.328,"text":"這個部分 大院有意見 他已經追加預算了追加預算 把你砍掉以後再追加 還是砍掉啦他好像追加預算有進化補償喔對不對 還是砍掉啦所以我的意思是說 你都沒有角色啊我不能跳來最前面 因為這個是憲法體制所以是什麼 這個叫做違法"},{"start":259.891,"end":283.354,"text":"違背憲法 違背預算法這個是立法案編 行政院在編的時候可能要稍微注意到這個法律上的一個規定啦老實請問你嘛 他這樣編有沒有違反預算法預算法寫得很清楚嗎三組通過的法案你就要編預算了他是行政院怎麼思考的我不太了解"},{"start":284.799,"end":307.813,"text":"所以就你會被提名在這裡你就很體貼嘛表面上說歐法的手藝 你說歐法的手藝你會做人 老實說是這樣啦齁 這些東西 唉唷你看那個數字 喔 這個執政黨的立委給你拿去死執政黨的立委給你拿去死 在野黨的立委就會疼惜你這不是你厲害的地方咧"},{"start":311.06,"end":328.315,"text":"這個我們都是依法行政 依照我的主責來做這種事情行政院亂砍終結預算 北截預算北截預算砍了650億 終結砍了96%這個東西你會不要生氣一下"},{"start":335.51,"end":358.05,"text":"這個還在他那個補助款還沒有補助辦法還沒有送到大安備查大安要不要備查 大安備查以後我們就會注意這個事情我們來看現在我們都知道中央政府給地方的錢三部分"},{"start":359.144,"end":371.552,"text":"第一大部分就是統籌分配稅款第二一般補助款第三計畫性補助款請問你一般補助款是不是法定義務是不是"},{"start":372.921,"end":399.077,"text":"是不是你告訴我在總預算案裡面是列為在那個法定支出的表裡面是列一般性的它是法定義務支出喔它有這樣列 那個憲法也有稍微現在一直講說財化法有什麼窮者越窮富者越富這個叫因為你把這三個加起來才能算 我們就算一個東西來我們來看下一頁"},{"start":400.697,"end":421.271,"text":"我把這三個東西算進來台北市台北市最多多了450億台北市112年度把這個全部加進來補助的收入加進來全部加進來台北市第3名113年第4名114年第5名台北市哪裏有最多"},{"start":425.216,"end":446.484,"text":"你要一起看啦你不能見數不見零你不能只看所謂統籌分別稅款還有一般補助款還有計畫性補助款這個所以喔這個錢喔 老實講執政黨不必在那裡說裝窮啊根本手上都在執政黨手上因為台下就很清楚啊左手給你錢 用什麼錢拿回來"},{"start":448.204,"end":470.999,"text":"所以這個觀念那個集錢的觀念錢都放在中央的口袋修修都不變到現在為止都不變這個事情老實講讓這個整個來講就這樣這個這只是才化法修法只有離島一小部分然後行政院"},{"start":473.433,"end":488.59,"text":"小蹄大皺 魚目混珠 混水摸魚所以要重新來修這個長髮你知道要怎麼去啦這個 老實講這個你應該記錄欸你們審計部都沒有小事欸你就看立法院的行政在那裡你都沒有小事 你都不講話"},{"start":493.663,"end":520.959,"text":"這個財化法是要中央要謀全國經濟平衡發展阿餅就這麼大所以中央阿地方要做下來大家好好的把做到大家都能夠兼顧到每一個縣市每一個阿你的角色勒你的角色勒請問審計部的角色勒因為這個還在我都在講這個都一些法律規定都還在大院的身上"},{"start":522.813,"end":551.912,"text":"什麼意思我聽不懂就是說補助辦法好像送到他在行政院好像有送來大院來看因為要經過大院被查他現在就這樣子所以逼著我我已經提案了補助辦法現在行政院命令我們要提高位階叫補助條例變成法律案好的你的補助就一定依法不可以隨便補助現在就是完全是中央政府高興的多給你一點不高興的少給你一點"},{"start":553.654,"end":578.427,"text":"砍顏色中央有他全國移住的事情像國防、外交、珠珊、黃紅這些中央也有他要做的事情我們原來是中央地方的錢的分配75對25現在財務法通過以後按照行政院的變化只剩66但是我們目標希望60"},{"start":579.728,"end":607.111,"text":"中央應該變60不是66所以中央還只想抓在手上還有抓補助款所以說起來中央是很有錢的啦所以錢和市要稍微大家談一下中央和地方談一下錢跟市要一起是錢給地方 事情給地方這個沒有人反對但是你不能夠說因為我錢給你的我一份補助款扣回來不可以這樣子啦"},{"start":607.83,"end":622.743,"text":"因為我們地方是租給族行很久了所以大概大家可以接下來談一下那個沈機長你沒有聽出我的我的重點在於你什麼都敢申請你對行政院不申請"},{"start":623.866,"end":651.637,"text":"行政院 行政院這個你答應我是根據答案通過的法例根據答案通過的決議我來做答案通過的預算我來做監督預算執行我是根據答案的一些你告訴我你告訴我你針對行政院做過哪一次的審計去批評他那一件你告訴我一件就好一件行政院一件"},{"start":652.455,"end":672.919,"text":"他的那個正義先導我有通知他說那個行政院正義先導還有什麼這個我跟你講因為行政院的金額不大我要抓的時候是看有時候金額很大他那個我是用電腦在跑他違反規定我們會教他我要跟你講的是114年的總預算"},{"start":681.045,"end":709.307,"text":"鬧的這個樣子他不議法編列我們退回我現在就跟你預告他如果就這樣送過來沒有編軍人的三萬塊的加薪的兩百多億我們一樣退回故事重演故事重演故事重演沒有這個時候114年已經遠過了你就要你就要審計我重點一直在放在這個地方就是大的事情這麼大的事情你跟我講文修文那個很小的事情大的事情"},{"start":710.95,"end":738.864,"text":"他不依法編列已經發生過一年了去年後來他追加預算這時候你要介入你都沒有介入你不敢介入最後我們審計不介入在行政院在行政院或者立法院還在處理的過程中這個我們都尊重行政院的預算編注錢還有尊重大案的審議權請問你會期待六年以後"},{"start":740.839,"end":747.484,"text":"總統再提名你當省局長了嗎我大概沒有這種期待沒有這種期待沒有這種期待你就放膽"},{"start":749.639,"end":776.025,"text":"我跟你講N次了 省市長自己大刀 管工大刀你從我上一次提名的時候 你就這樣講對 一直督促我自己刀 自己刀 別給誰先你督促我 建議我很多啦你給他噗噗噗 行政院長你不要噗啦總結一下那個查核平台就是你建議的現在效果很好耶 二十幾萬人耶這個謝謝啦 我的建議就好聽啦但是我要說自己刀要去噗"},{"start":777.826,"end":797.324,"text":"我們做任何事情還是順眾 還是依法行政好啦 來 我就講 審計部啊 我在看下一頁你真的 為什麼我們這麼多委員會想支持你啊你給我做人咧 我說什麼你都說好啊 好啊 然後你都留一手"},{"start":798.456,"end":822.922,"text":"你都留一手 留一手什麼 你做好人比如說 就業安定基金7000多億喔7200多億嘛 7000多萬喔對不起 7000多萬喔這個喔 你呢 只有檢列收回為什麼不剔除 不一樣喔 檢列跟剔除不一樣喔你檢列 所以他今年又變2億回來啦"},{"start":824.013,"end":851.737,"text":"七千多萬變成給你 欸 納稅人的錢讓那個許民春開演唱會讓謝宜龍去一間廚房 煮個水水水這些錢都是老闆先買單結果你把他什麼 把他檢列 你看 我有做噢 在那一檔才說嗯 不錯 在那一檔說啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵"},{"start":852.415,"end":878.323,"text":"我檢列 我六年來檢列一千四百多億目前已經繳酷了兩三百億你檢列有些要剔除 這個要剔除這個用在私人的身上那個法院在做判決那個已經送書法了 也送檢查了這個部分我們都做了"},{"start":880.223,"end":899.69,"text":"我們也在看要求勞動部好好的查明這個到底在你勞動部是否我問你你又回答我問題了你為什麼不敢用剔除因為剔除啊剔除要很明確才是這個救護法明確嗎請民進台演唱會不明確嗎"},{"start":900.96,"end":923.22,"text":"這個救護法他是用勞工性平他是有關這樣的一個情形所以這個救護法我們用就業服務法請勞動部查明這個我們已經進到勞動部我們問了他一下他今天沒有編那麼多 沒有編"},{"start":924.998,"end":936.297,"text":"沒有變料補回去他還在查變糧液補回去喔沒有沒有沒有沒有所以委員剛剛講的那個勞動部給我給我們的說明那這筆錢被我花掉七千多萬怎麼辦"},{"start":939.658,"end":962.031,"text":"他要好好查明以後 如果公務的要經過行政院編列 答應審理通過如果是適用的法官會判 他末日所得那末日所得 那個勞動部要去領回啊 要去請求啊法院判是根據你"},{"start":963.243,"end":990.939,"text":"如果你直接給他剔除法院判就不一樣了他就是要求他配因為沒有經過法院判決我們做任何事情依法行政還要很明確的一些規定你用錢類不用剔除就是老祖國我們大部分就是因為不跟你扯這個來人員政策我也要講這個這個你幾乎也不敢批評"},{"start":992.556,"end":1010.403,"text":"錯誤的人權政策你也不敢批評來我們看離岸風電都要發展因為我們要求local content國產的要自治要多少30%過去要求所以我們本座囤購的電價超過國際4.3塊一度4.3塊20年來我們台電增加的購電成本9100億"},{"start":1020.17,"end":1031.139,"text":"光電大家都知道光電等於另外一個字四個字叫官商勾結光電的成本平均高於國際一度三塊錢我們現在來看"},{"start":1033.171,"end":1053.802,"text":"光電跟風電加起來也幾個百分比而已啊為什麼不用便宜的而且這麼貴現在備轉容量最近這幾天備轉容量只有3.8%到橘燈橘燈下來就是紅燈紅燈下來就黑燈就不看電了這麼嚴重的事情我們沒有看到你省下一步"},{"start":1054.702,"end":1062.994,"text":"這件事情你們先審計一下我們有審計你要這樣的話離岸風電我們有處理過有一些蓋在那個飛行服務區的我們說這不行 這影響飛安"},{"start":1070.363,"end":1091.988,"text":"他要處理掉光電我們查到那個彰化那個是有一點一點差不多要到我們也要他移送夥伴那個台南的那個光電我們也有查所以大概如果我們發現我們損失發現我們一定作為我現在跟你講這個是我跟你我一直在強調的嘛"},{"start":1092.932,"end":1103.73,"text":"就是你現在都在比較技術面去認真你們的人去認真 那可以但是大方向你不敢跑你對行政院不敢跑"},{"start":1104.963,"end":1127.498,"text":"我就告訴你 我現在對你的期待因為你幾可能會過的你幾可能會過的那我就對你期待你應該不會想未來的六年你這次六年已經surprise了所以請你那個大刀準備向行政院 運營部的一些的政策"},{"start":1128.374,"end":1155.598,"text":"人員政策是錯的人員政策是錯的你都不敢批評你講都不敢講我們有提過很多意見你沒有提過像台電的備載容量不夠備載容量有問題他的備用容量有問題我們通通都請他要注意你有沒有講過他的人員政策錯誤有沒有講這句話"},{"start":1157.329,"end":1172.695,"text":"沒有啊那個能源政策 那是政策政策我們要尊重你的前一任的審計長林青龍因為我行這個一般審計部沒有到那個我是根據政策來審計"},{"start":1175.725,"end":1198.249,"text":"我跟你講 你的前一任審計長叫林慶榮他就敢講 你就不敢講這也是你會做官的地方最後一項 因為我時間不多了你知道我們現在對美關稅攤販軍售商售 你知道吧我們現在第一個我們有200億美金的錢都付了東西都沒有來你要不要吹一下"},{"start":1198.874,"end":1224.164,"text":"有 這我們查過了是三千多億 有一些萬了我們有的先互去 互去的他要做實踐 我們刪掉他第二個第二個 我要先 已經到了能不能要求我們的盡量要改為商售因為算在貿易逆差裡面有利於關稅談判 可不可以這個是很大的事情 可能要好好的 國安部好好檢討"},{"start":1233.919,"end":1233.939,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（16時15分）謝謝主席。韓院長以及各位先進。有請陳審計長。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你好。我還是稱你為審計長，因為你現任就是審計長。因為你在審計部的報告裡面，常常有去找出現在政府施政的一些問題，所以執政黨立委對你非常不友善，當你被提名續任時，老實講，英文叫做to my surprise，我有一點詫異，你居然被提名了！你自己感覺怎麼樣？賴總統在提名你的時候，你心裡是怎麼想的？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我想休息了，所以也沒有做續任的打算。"],["賴委員士葆：原來沒有續任的打算？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，因為有替國家做一點事情，已滿足了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是有點驚喜？還是驚訝？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：深感還是有責任，但是在審計部，它有它審計的價值，它可以為國家、為人民做一點事。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你是驚喜？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：也不一定是驚喜，很難形容。"],["賴委員士葆：還是驚訝？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不太像驚訝，也不太像歡喜，好像是責任、擔子還沒有卸下來，還要繼續做。"],["賴委員士葆：我是有點驚訝啦！比如說疫苗的事情、雞蛋的事情，你們單位很敢提出一些數字，很好！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是我們的責任。"],["賴委員士葆：但是後來也沒有很驚訝，因為你也是高高舉起，輕輕放下，你的用字遣詞也都是四平八穩，不太敢去得罪當道，變成是這樣。我們來看，比如說最大條的事情、你最應該去auditing的就是卓榮泰院長，他怎麼可以不依法行政呢？立法院韓院長這麼辛苦在主持，槌子一敲、三讀通過的法案，他為什麼可以不編預算？去年的總預算已經這樣編了，禁伐補償不列；今年警察人員的待遇條例、警消退休的提高，特別是軍人每個月多3萬塊的軍人條例，他也不編！這時候審計部就應該講話了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個預算審議權還在立法院啦！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫還在立法院？請問你有沒有事前審議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我沒有事前審議的……"],["賴委員士葆：事中審議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：也沒有事中審議。"],["賴委員士葆：事後審議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這個還沒有經過大院通過，大院通過後我們會議決，但這個還在大院，這部分我們會尊重大院的審議權。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，今（114）年的預算，他不依法編列禁伐補償，你要怎麼辦？這個已經事後了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個部分大院有意見，他已經追加預算了。"],["賴委員士葆：追加預算？把你砍掉以後再追加，還是砍掉了啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：他好像追加預算有禁伐補償喔！"],["賴委員士葆：還是砍掉了啊！所以我的意思是，你都沒有角色啊？你這樣……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我不能跳來最前面，因為這個是憲法體制。"],["賴委員士葆：所以這是什麼？這個叫做違法，違背憲法、違背預算法。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院在編的時候可能要稍微注意到法律上的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：我就請問你，他這樣編有沒有違反預算法？預算法寫得很清楚，三讀通過的法案就要編預算。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院是怎麼思考的，我不太了解。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！所以你會被提名的原因就在這裡，你很體貼，表面上批判這樣數字，結果搓得圓圓的，你會做人，老實說是這樣。還有一看到數字，執政黨的立委把你罵得要死，在野黨立委就會疼惜你，這也是你厲害的地方。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們都是依法行政，依照我的職責來做任何事情。"],["賴委員士葆：我們再看行政院亂砍中捷預算、北捷預算，砍了北捷預算650億，砍了中捷96%，這個東西你要不要審計一下？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個補助款的補助辦法還沒有送到大院備查，大院備查了以後，我們就會注意這個事情。"],["賴委員士葆：我們都知道中央政府給地方的錢有三部分：第一、大部分是統籌分配稅款；第二、一般補助款；第三、計畫型補助款。請問一般補助款是不是法定義務？你告訴我，是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：在總預算案裡，它在法定支出表上是列為一般性補助款。"],["賴委員士葆：它是法定義務支出！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它有這樣列，憲法也有稍微……"],["賴委員士葆：現在一直講以後財劃法讓窮者愈窮、富者愈富，對不對？這個叫「烏龍踅桌」、魚目混珠，因為你把這三個加起來才來算，但我們只算一個東西。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我把這三個東西算進來，說臺北市有最多錢，多了450億，結果臺北市112年度把全部加進來、把補助的收入全部加進來，臺北市第三名，113年第四名，114年第五名。臺北市哪裡有最多？你要一起看！你不能見樹不見林，你不能只看統籌分配稅款，還有一般補助款，也還有計畫型補助款，所以老實講執政黨不必在那裡裝窮，這個錢根本都在執政黨手上。因為它現在就很清楚，左手給你錢，右手把錢拿回來，就這樣。所以這個是集「錢」的觀念，錢都放在中央的口袋，口袋暖暖的都不變，到現在為止都不變。這個事情整個來講，財劃法修法只有針對離島一小部分，行政院卻小題大作、魚目混珠、混水摸魚，說要重新來修財劃法，不知道要變怎麼樣？老實講，這個你應該要介入，你們審計部都沒有角色，你就看立法院和行政院在那裡，你都沒有角色、你都不講話！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：財劃法是中央要謀全國經濟平衡發展，餅就這麼大，所以中央和地方要坐下來，大家好好做到能夠兼顧到每一個縣市、每一個……"],["賴委員士葆：你的角色呢？請問審計部的角色呢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這一些法律規定都還在大院的身上。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼意思？我聽不懂。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：就是行政院好像有送補助辦法到大院，因為要經過大院備查。"],["賴委員士葆：它現在就這樣子，所以逼著我已經提案了。補助辦法現在是行政命令，我把它提高位階，叫補助條例，變成法律案，以後補助就一定要依法，不可以隨便補助。現在完全是中央政府高興就多給你一點，不高興就少給你一點，看顏色在補助的。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：中央有它全國一致的事情，像國防、外交、治山防洪這些，中央也有它要做的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：不要忘了，我們原來中央、地方錢的分配是75對25，現在財劃法通過以後，按照行政院的編法只剩66，但是我們的目標是希望60，中央應該變60，而不是66，所以中央還是想抓在手上，還有抓補助款，所以說起來中央是很有錢的啦！主要的錢還在中央。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以錢和事大家要稍微談一下，找中央和地方談一下。"],["賴委員士葆：這個沒有問題，錢跟事要一起……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：是錢給地方，事情也給地方，這個沒有人反對，但是你不能夠說因為我的錢給你了，就把一般補助款扣回來，不可以這樣子啦！這個你要糾正啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們地方自治也執行很久了，所以大概大家可以坐下來談一下。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你沒有聽出我的……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我知道、我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：我的重點在於你什麼都敢審計，你對行政院不敢審計。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個都還沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：行政院、行政院、行政院，你不敢審計行政院！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我是根據大院通過的法律，根據大院通過的決議，我來做，它通過的預算，我來監督預算執行，我是根據大院的一些……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我、你告訴我，你針對行政院做過哪一次的審計去批評它？哪一件？你告訴我，一件就好，一件、一件！行政院一件！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它的政令宣導，我有通知它說……"],["賴委員士葆：那個是行政院的政令宣導，還有什麼？我跟你講……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為行政院的金額不大，我要抓是看有時候的金額很大，它的部分我是用電腦在跑，如果有違反規定，我們會教它……"],["賴委員士葆：我要跟你講的是114年總預算鬧得這個樣子，它不依法編列，我們退回，我現在就跟你預告，它如果就這樣送過來，沒有編軍人3萬塊加薪的兩百多億，我們一樣退回，故事重演。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個尊重大院的審議權。"],["賴委員士葆：故事重演、故事重演，這個在114年已經演過了，你就要審計，我重點一直放在這個地方，這是大的事情，這麼大的事情，但你跟我講文宣費那個很小的事情，大的事情它不依法編列，在去年已經發生過一年了，後來它追加預算，這時候你要介入，你都沒有介入，你不敢介入。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們審計不介入行政院或者立法院還在處理的過程中，我們都尊重行政院的預算編製權，還有尊重大院的審議權。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，你會期待六年以後總統再提名你當審計長嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我大概也沒有這種期待。"],["賴委員士葆：好，沒有這種期待。沒有這種期待你就放膽，我跟你講N次了，審計長有一把大刀、關公大刀……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你從我上一次提名的時候，你就這樣講，一直督促我。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！這把刀不要讓它生鏽。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你督促我，也建議我很多……"],["賴委員士葆：你砍、砍、砍、砍、砍，但行政院長，你不敢砍啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：總預算的查核平台就是你建議的，現在效果很好，二十幾萬人。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝啦，我的建議你都有聽，但是我要看的是這把刀要砍向行政院長，你不敢啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們做任何事情還是慎重，還是依法行政。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！我就講審計部你真的……為什麼我們這麼多委員會想支持你，你很會做人耶！我們說什麼你都說好、好、好，然後你都留一手、你都留一手！留一手什麼？你要做好人，比如說就業安定基金七千兩百多億……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：萬。"],["賴委員士葆：七千多萬，對不起，是七千多萬，你只有減列收回，為什麼不剔除？不一樣喔，減列和剔除不一樣，你減列，所以它今年又編了兩億回來，七千多萬變成……納稅人的錢讓許銘春開演唱會，讓謝宜容把一間房弄得很漂亮，這些錢都是老百姓買單，結果你把它減列！你看，我有做，在野黨說不錯，在野黨給你鼓掌拍拍手，對不對？結果是什麼？務虛不務實啊！要把它剔除，不是減列。請問你是減列還是剔除？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我減列。"],["賴委員士葆：減列嘛！那就不對了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我六年來減列一千四百多億，目前已經繳庫了兩、三百億。"],["賴委員士葆：你減列，但其實有些要剔除，這個要剔除！這個用在私人的身上，演唱會跟公共政策有什麼關係？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：那個法院在判決，那個已經送司法了，也送監察了，這個部分我們都做了，同時我們也要求勞動部好好查明這個在勞動部到底屬於……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題，你為什麼不敢用剔除？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為剔除要很明確，但是就服法……"],["賴委員士葆：許銘春開演唱會不明確嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：就服法是用勞工性平的……它是有冠一個這樣的情形，所以我們用就業服務法請勞動部查明，這個我們已經盡到……我們也問了勞動部，他們今年沒有編要補回去，他們還在查。"],["賴委員士葆：編2億補回去哦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：沒有、沒有，關於委員剛剛講的，勞動部給我們的說明……"],["賴委員士葆：那這一筆錢被冤枉花掉了七千多萬怎麼辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：他要好好查明以後，如果是公務的……"],["賴委員士葆：誰要付啦？我問你誰要付啦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：要經過行政院編列，大院審議通過；如果是私用的，法官會判他是沒入所得，如果是沒入所得，勞動部要去領回、要去請求啊！"],["賴委員士葆：關於這個東西，法院判是根據你，如果你給他剔除，法院判就不一樣了，就會要求他賠。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為沒有經過法院判決，我們做任何事情依法行政還要很明確的一些規定。"],["賴委員士葆：你用減列不用剔除，就是會做官啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們大部分……因為……"],["賴委員士葆：不跟你扯這個了，接下來我要講能源政策，這個你幾乎也不敢批評，錯誤的能源政策你也不敢批評。我們看離岸風電都要發展，因為我們要求local content國產的要自製多少？30%，看國際的，我們的躉購電價超過國際一度4.3元，二十年來台電增加的購電成本9,100億。說到光電，大家都知道光電等於另外四個字叫「官商勾結」，光電的成本平均高於國際一度3塊錢。我們現在來看光電跟風電加起來只有幾個percent而已，為什麼不用便宜的？而且賣這麼貴。最近這幾天備轉容量只有3.8%到橘燈，橘燈下來就是紅燈，紅燈下來就是黑燈，那就缺電了，這麼嚴重的事情，我們沒有看到審計部有什麼作為，針對這件事情你也稍微審計一下，你不要說……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們有審計。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？沒有看到報告啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你要這樣說的話，離岸風電我們有處理過，有一些蓋在飛航服務區的，我們說這不行、這影響飛安，它要處理掉。針對光電，我們查到彰化，我們也要它移送法辦，包括臺南的光電我們也有查，所以如果我們審計發現，我們一定作為。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就跟你講，這就是我一直在強調的，現在你們的人都比較著重在技術面去認真，很好！可以，但是大方向你不敢碰，你對行政院不敢碰。我就告訴你，我現在對你的期待，因為你極可能是會過的，那我就對你期待……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：求仁得仁……"],["賴委員士葆：你應該不必想未來的六年，你這一次六年已經surprise了……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：求仁得仁，我們接受……"],["賴委員士葆：所以請你那個大刀準備砍向行政院院本部的一些政策……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為政策我們審計……"],["賴委員士葆：能源政策是錯的！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：除了發現以外，一般不介入政策。"],["賴委員士葆：能源政策是錯的！你也不敢批評，你連講都不敢講……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們有提供很多意見。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有提過……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：像現在台電的備載容量不夠，它的備用容量有問題，我們通通都請它要注意啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有講過它的能源政策錯誤，有沒有講這句話？沒有啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：那個能源政策……那是政策，政策我們要尊重整個……"],["賴委員士葆：你前一任的審計長林慶隆……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為一般審計部沒有到那個……我是根據政策來審計。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，你的前一任審計長叫林慶隆，他就敢講，你就不敢講，這也是你會做官的地方。","最後一項，因為我時間不多了，你知道我們現在對美關稅談判，軍售、商售你知道嘛。第一個，我們現在有200億美金的錢都付了，東西都沒有來，你要不要催一下？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有，這個我們查過了，是三千多億，有一些慢了，有的我們先付訖了，它要做實現，我們刪掉它……"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，我現在時間已經到了，能不能要求我們的儘量要改為商售，因為算在貿易逆差裡面，有利於關稅談判，可不可以？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個是很大的事情……"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：可能國防部要好好檢討。"],["賴委員士葆：可以不可以？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你的提出……"],["賴委員士葆：改成商售，要求改成商售……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是茲事體大。"],["賴委員士葆：你不敢回答咧。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人陳審計長。","我們現在休息10分鐘之後，鍾佳濱委員請準備詢問。現在休息。","休息（16時36分）","繼續開會（16時46分）"],["主席：報告全院委員會，我們現在繼續開會，進行委員的詢問。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員詢問，林德福委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}