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那我們來看一下那如果人選沒有改變我們看審計法有沒有改變審計法有來選擇有財務審計有績效審計是不是跟以前一樣?對的如果說人沒有改變法律的制度沒有改變"},{"start":80.031,"end":107.56,"text":"那是什麼改變我們審計今天要重新來對您的任命進行同學的行使我們不禁要問要問有改變的地方嗎對不對對人家說財政是肅政之母你同意嗎同意同意好那麼因此呢就你審計的角度來講審計部的權責審計長的最重要的功能就是對於財政來進行審計嗎政府的財政對政府的預算政府的財政擁擠政府的財政當是"},{"start":110.433,"end":137.281,"text":"現在來看新版的財劃法它是我們最主要的改變對不對變化可能會很大今年變化還蠻大的那你對財劃法了解嗎有所了解我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款對不對一般型補助計劃型補助是不是這樣子那麼新版的財劃法它有哪些改變是不是在中央跟地方我先問你統籌分配稅是哪三個稅"},{"start":142.207,"end":162.38,"text":"所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅有沒有改變?沒有改變嗎?改變的是中央分配給地方的%就更多了嘛所以地方得到統籌分配就增加了嘛那請問中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了但是地方的水平分配根據什麼來分配?"},{"start":163.425,"end":187.965,"text":"根據本來財劃法是應該要跟財政貢獻度嘛新法是這樣但是要法的主要立場是在基本國策沒有錯但是基本上因為這三種稅六都跟非都來看是不是他們的財政貢獻度六都比非六都來的大"},{"start":188.547,"end":216.227,"text":"因為營業稅啊 所得稅啊 貨物稅啊你人多 錢就多 稅就多分配回去也是更多結果這麼一來我們將中央給地方的統統分配增加之後有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均這個可能要好好坐下來談因為呢 規模擴大但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看只是把貧富的差距拉大而已我們再往下看那麼一般性補助款用在哪裡"},{"start":218.595,"end":241.128,"text":"一般是補助人在調製財政營利好包括了教育社福基本設施還有其他的基本支出對不對經常性普遍性基本建設還有維運的性質對不對但是很重要的要能財政均衡請問一下100公斤的人跟50公斤的人誰的飯量比較大"},{"start":242.592,"end":258.37,"text":"所以六都來講他人口多他的基本需求多所以他獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較小的縣市非六都來的多嘛對不對但是中央怎麼樣均衡中央只有用財力的分配"},{"start":259.494,"end":278.51,"text":"中央對你地方需求多的我要給你多你需求較少的就給的少頂多是非六都的財力比較不足我給你的比例比較高可以給到九成如果是六都的你的財力比較好雖然你的需求大我給你的比例就沒有達到九成比較少可能七成是不是這樣"},{"start":279.651,"end":302.25,"text":"但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這樣的小小的方式去調節那基本上一般性補助還是根據你六都跟非都的人口規模來設算所以呢六都當然一般性補助領的多非都的領的少是不是這樣那我們來看那最後最後還剩一個叫計劃型補助那如果照這樣子"},{"start":303.399,"end":321.468,"text":"富者恆富 貧者欲貧那我們怎麼樣去改變這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都怎麼提升提升他的財政的貢獻能力我們常說壽人以魚不如壽人以魚給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿你同意吧"},{"start":322.208,"end":337.967,"text":"所以計劃型補助是不是說如果你這些財政能力較差的縣市你提出好的計劃型那我中央給你幫助你提升讓你未來的財政改善這是不是中央最重要的調節地方均衡發展的一個手段"},{"start":339.648,"end":362.39,"text":"就像說我們對於有錢人家他不需要太多的支持窮人家的小孩你幫他上進念書他以後出了社會他可以改善他家庭的生活經濟這就是我們的目的請問現在我們目前的新版財化法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計劃型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標"},{"start":364.418,"end":376.133,"text":"因為計畫性已經看起來因為他的餅這麼大他沒辦法因為就減少很多所以就應該是比較難"},{"start":377.15,"end":403.7,"text":"所以我們看到這個圖統籌分配稅款根據你的財政貢獻度這裡面六都比非都來得強我們再來看一般型補助款飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來得多中央能夠幫助有限最主要能夠調節台灣各縣市的均衡發展就是計劃型補助結果我們新版的財發法雖然從中央拿九道的稅款給地方但是是擴大了都跟非都的差距"},{"start":404.48,"end":430.485,"text":"然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小還是一樣都比非都拿的多最後非都得以翻身的計劃性補助中央變少了是不是這樣子那我們怎麼辦來我舉個例子那現在我們來看一下中央給地方多了4165億的統籌分配稅款不管水平怎麼分請問地方政府的市權有沒有增加"},{"start":432.59,"end":435.095,"text":"這次採訪還沒談到沒有談到 簡單講就像我們辦個團善"},{"start":437.715,"end":465.812,"text":"50人要吃一個暗桶給你一個買菜的錢結果呢 人數沒增加 菜錢增加你覺得說這檔菜要怎麼辦是不是要比較稠稠的 對嗎要快一點快一點所以就你們審計的角度如果地方政府獲得更多的統籌分配 稅款的分配但是要做的事情 事權沒有增加你覺得你審計的任務是不是更加重要對 那我來請教一下 我們常常說啊"},{"start":466.584,"end":476.106,"text":"有錢花跟盡量花這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花你知道還有第三種花嗎叫做拚命花"},{"start":477.327,"end":501.507,"text":"現在台北市政府本來財政就比較好這是財化法下去的結果他又多了四五百億請問一下 你的審計單位有同時增加對台北市政府多了這麼多錢他不只是有錢花 他不只是盡量花他還拼命花那事情沒成功 錢變多了會產生什麼問題 亂開嘛那審計是不是要防止地方政府亂開這是我們的主軸"},{"start":505.39,"end":528.401,"text":"那請問一下 那麼我說時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變但是審計黨沒有變 審計法沒有變但是地方都的財源變多了 事情沒有增加請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢 怎麼花 要嚴加審計是不是對那你們有增加人手嗎沒有沒有 那怎麼辦"},{"start":529.912,"end":556.158,"text":"我現在是用科技AI 數位這樣來做也要地方這樣來做如果必要的時候我們會請證人好 我們來看一下這是你113年的審計報告他說直轄市跟縣市政府有計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況管理作業欠當 是不是這樣子"},{"start":556.958,"end":572.144,"text":"有這樣的現象結果呢 我們的事前分配 地方的事情沒有增加執行的量沒有增加你的審計能力也沒有增加結果給他更多的錢那你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版參法法之下做好你對地方政府的審計"},{"start":573.191,"end":597.658,"text":"我們還是會盡到我們的主軸啦但是這是我們的審計的主要主軸這個我們會再來加強這個監督的力道所以如果事權隨著裁員來移轉到地方政府譬如說本來學校的電費是中央補助現在地方政府錢多了電費自己出對你們審計作為來講是不是比較合理"},{"start":599.835,"end":622.851,"text":"我們是準備 像這個部分我們要進行聯合審計 科技審計那我們再來問一下 之前我請教過你屏東縣的自來水普及率 電底 全國是95%台北市是99.83% 屏東只有41%那時候我跟你請教這個普及率問題呢屏東圍22個縣是排最後面的"},{"start":623.411,"end":652.396,"text":"所以我就請教 上次您說到說相較於其他縣市持續提高屏東縣的自來水普及的預算這個效益是最好的 你是不是同意同意 完全同意所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助提高它的自來水的改善讓人民的生活品質提高對不對對好 那我先問你這次財化法公布之後有九個縣市貨配的補助更少了 有沒有對屏東是不是其中之一"},{"start":654.39,"end":664.415,"text":"他是行政院有出來答應說不會低於114那是行政院的說法那請問這個錯誤怎麼發生我們看一下"},{"start":665.82,"end":682.893,"text":"這個是低級錯誤啊裁判法16條之一在黨提出的法案本島19縣市跟離島3縣市通通以22個做分母結果呢本島的部分有0.28無法分配離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑"},{"start":686.084,"end":711.963,"text":"這個立法上有稍微沒有注意到那如果說全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的中央的錢變少了跑到其他的有錢的都去了那請問我要問你在這個財化法就算這個錯誤公式修改之後你覺得改過之後的財化法對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響"},{"start":713.106,"end":737.725,"text":"中央還有錢做嗎這個前瞻第五期啊前瞻第五期最近通過他大概是無知來水的這個部分大概有一百多億我是希望能夠幫忙屏東因為屏東啊那要中央有錢啊中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東因為那個預算已經過了那個經濟部州106億啊前瞻已經過了你說106億地方要不要配合款"},{"start":742.663,"end":761.592,"text":"地方大概都一般都要有配合款結果我們屏東在裁判修改之後我們貨配額數少於修法之前就算中央的錢沒有減少我們地方的能力變少了我們的嚴管工程怎麼做我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做你覺得有什麼辦法"},{"start":762.947,"end":786.474,"text":"如果未來屏東自來水改善不理想你省紀部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府還是要糾正經濟部因為是這樣吼因為無住來水地區的改善屬於住來水公司我們會糾正經濟部住來水住來水公司但是巧戶難為無米之炊啊我們錢變少了我們怎麼樣來如期完成"},{"start":787.794,"end":809.285,"text":"因為屏東是低的我看當時委員執行我的時候我看那個比例其實那個比例經過了一年增加不大那是以前有錢明年開始沒有錢所以我是希望這106億經濟部盡量用在屏東用鼓勵的機制幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管"},{"start":809.933,"end":828.706,"text":"謝謝啦 省局長 感謝你啦但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了作為經濟部繼續支持 全力支持我們的自備款 配合款還是不夠來 我們看下一題我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼每一胎補足到10萬你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎"},{"start":829.731,"end":853.361,"text":"就是因為我們少數化是一個國安問題啦是蠻低的各種多元方式都要嘗試這是一種嘗試的方式我們非常因為我們審計的時候我審計了他四年他終於有提出說要一個花十萬啦我認為我跟你講你們自己審計部在2016年你們點名屏東山鄉鎮我們有鄉鎮做的一些生育補貼"},{"start":858.203,"end":887.033,"text":"第四胎甚至大方送到10萬結果呢 屏東一樣人口沒有增加甚至還繼續減少感覺上 前面的做法有沒有效果前果都有這樣的一個現象所以有婚禮宅也出來了有一個補助10萬也出來這時候 這都是我們當時查所提出的建議你們建議 建議10萬嗎還是說養一個小孩所以統計要668萬要多元來處理這些事多元 來 我們看一下學者有研究過"},{"start":888.117,"end":913.482,"text":"中央研究院的基金所的研究員說啊2023年如果獲得分配100萬以上在往後的6年生育率呢會提高到多了0.07啊不要說10萬啦 給你100萬喔你家裡生的沒零點一個啦但是如果給你1000萬的話呢每100個家庭就會多25個小孩好一點 你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1000萬嗎"},{"start":914.571,"end":929.106,"text":"我對政府的財政衝擊很大所以要多元方式所以說我請問一下低生育率問題不是要不要生結婚要怎麼生"},{"start":930.067,"end":944.483,"text":"所以就有學的說低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩是不結婚那你覺得如果我們結婚每一個人第一次結婚政府給他上五十萬的大紅包你覺得怎麼樣 有機會嗎因為這樣來結婚嗎這個是一種"},{"start":949.009,"end":961.252,"text":"謝謝委員 我們的看法和你一樣因為我們台灣的主女大部分都是分生主女96%都分生主女所以結婚是很重要的與其鼓勵生育不如鼓勵結婚兩個都有鼓勵"},{"start":968.052,"end":990.988,"text":"你給我十萬 我記得要持到十八歲對不對 但是我就不要結婚啊你如果給我五十萬 我來結婚結的金錢 我自己來處理好 所以目前呢 我們說啊結婚大禮包至少要五十萬如果現在是出十萬啦是不是剛做回來剛好所以說政府說你叫我們的產婦啊 你要做回來政府給你十萬塊做回來你覺得民眾是不是感覺剛好窩心"},{"start":996.571,"end":1020.008,"text":"這個是 也是一種方式啦這個可以啊 雙管齊下雙管齊下 做回來 給你十萬塊做回來高利貸你盡量這好 那是國安問題啊好 我們繼續往下看那少子化的對策 你看一看0到6歲的國家養友善家庭的職場兒童健康的權益保障友善的生育配套從107到114審計報告覺得有沒有太"},{"start":1024.735,"end":1044.883,"text":"有沒有效果 有沒有建議有 剛剛委員講他這個因為花掉國家從107到114花掉7000多億所以我們都有損失所以包括委員講的我們說結婚也要鼓勵有人笑我說你這個老金好像來 那我再問一個話題有沒有聽過明月"},{"start":1048.291,"end":1066.883,"text":"有沒有聽過民怨 民怨幾時有八九問青天啊民怨何處來 借問審計官為什麼民怨跟審計有關 你知不知道我們以這次的風災好了啦我們現在呢往下看 你來看這處店 整個的處鴨拍一天 整個的香料料"},{"start":1070.629,"end":1097.402,"text":"我們站在政府的角度我們統帥補助十萬啊破一坑的我們補助一千現在我們補助百分之百 補助十萬你覺得合理嗎這個要看政府的財政能力啦但是 最多就十萬而已嘛 盡量因為這些啊 都受災戶 要盡量幫助他們那 我跟你講 現在地方遇到的情況行政官員說 你如果破一坑我給你省省的面積一千十萬塊我才補助一萬"},{"start":1098.923,"end":1119.537,"text":"你要是破了很多坑 面積超過八成 九成你要全部種完 我給你補走十萬但是請教一下 我出現破一坑 我全部種完政府可不可以補走我十萬 有沒有不合理我的房子這麼老舊了 雖然破了一個洞 面積未達五成我全部把它換新 你政府是不是要補走我百分之百 補走我十萬"},{"start":1120.956,"end":1139.75,"text":"這一個部分 自宅的這一個部分我們內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員在伺候審計的影響如果說今天內政部說關台你破一坑 還是全沒現料料你只要全沒反芯 你全沒反芯報告委員 我們的審計是根據"},{"start":1143.849,"end":1166.434,"text":"那個 內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響我來講啦 減少民怨喔 別用我們政府的心血來輸課我一間40年的老廚 就算我破一天沒超過三成我全部種完 我欠你五十四十萬我要求政府補助我 足夠補助 十萬有幾分嗎"},{"start":1167.614,"end":1194.8,"text":"所以說民怨怎麼來 審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變 我們來看一下現在的基層怎麼樣 多做多錯 寫報告跑法院其實我們來看一下 你們審計現在在追蹤啊說要出一條陷阱啊 那風太多了過呢 申請案走走風太已經過很久了 申請案走多了 這樣合理嗎這樣合理嗎 因為風太多了 很多人要申請嘛要越來越少 你覺得這樣哪一個合理"},{"start":1197.075,"end":1225.294,"text":"這個應該風...風太過...咳...咳...心情比較正常因為風太多了過 市議會都請不上工啊我就是想要還 我也找不上工所以聽到有工來做的時候 很多人就來請補助啊所以我要說的是說 審計的思維要改 往下看所以檢討監督級評論模式期望審計 要體察民意不要用政府的採購的思維來要求人民配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助 所以最後"},{"start":1225.834,"end":1233.804,"text":"最後希望這三年的一個主張請我們沈記長回去好好研究再給本席一個回應好不好可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":635,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（16時46分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳審計長被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長好。稱呼您審計長，因為您現在就是審計長，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長，過去你有沒有聽過「時代在變、環境在變、潮流在變」？有沒有聽過這句話？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：誰說的？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：誰說的我倒是不知道；我知道現在極端氣候讓整個都變……"],["鍾委員佳濱：前總統蔣經國先生說的啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：蔣經國先生說的啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是通常人家會說，有所變、有所不變，請問一下，相較於4年前，我們的審計長被提名人有沒有改變？沒有嘛！還是你嘛！對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，如果人選沒有改變，那我們來看審計法有沒有改變？審計法規定的權責有財務審計、有績效審計，是不是跟以前一樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果人沒有改變，法律的制度沒有改變，那是什麼改變了？我們今天要重新對您的任命進行同意權行使，我們不禁要問有改變的地方，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人家說財政是庶政之母，你同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，因此，就您審計的角度來講，就審計部的權責，審計長最重要的功能就是對政府財政來進行審計，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，政府的預算、政府的財政永續。"],["鍾委員佳濱：關於政府的財政，現在新版的財劃法是我們最主要的改變，對不對？變化有沒有很大？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：今年變化還滿大的！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那您對財劃法了解嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有所了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款、一般型補助、計畫型補助，是不是這樣子？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那新版的財劃法有哪些改變？我先問你，統籌分配稅是包含哪三種稅？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就是所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅，這有沒有改變？沒有改變嘛！還是這三種稅。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：改變的是中央分配給地方的趴數就更多了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以地方得到的統籌分配稅款就增加了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問，中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了，但是地方的水平分配是根據什麼來分配？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：本來財劃法是應該要謀……"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據它的財政貢獻度嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，新法是這樣規定的，但是法的主要立場基於憲法的基本國策是謀全國經濟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，但是基本上這三種稅以六都跟非都來看，以他們的財政貢獻度來看，是不是六都比非六都來得大？因為就營業稅、所得稅、貨物稅來看，你人多錢就多、稅就多，分配回去也是更多，結果這麼一來，我們將中央給地方的統籌分配增加之後，有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個可能要好好坐下來談。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為規模擴大，但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看，只是把貧富的差距拉大而已。","我們再往下看，一般性補助款用在哪裡？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般性補助款在調劑財政盈虛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，包括教育、社福、基本設施還有其他的基本支出，具經常性、普遍性、基本建設還有維運的性質，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有一個很重要的就是要能財政均衡，請問一下，100公斤的人跟50公斤的人相比，誰的飯量比較大？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：100公斤。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是100公斤的人嘛！以六都來講，它的人口多，它的基本需求多，所以它獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較少的縣市、非六都來得多，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是中央怎麼樣均衡？中央只有用財力的分配，中央對地方需求多的就給得多，對需求較少的就給得少，頂多是因為非六都的財力比較不足，所以給的比例比較高，可以給到九成。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是六都，因為你的財力比較好，雖然你的需求大，我給你的比例就沒有達到九成，會比較少，可能是七成，是不是這樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這種小小的方式去調節，基本上，一般性補助還是根據六都跟非六都的人口規模來設算，所以六都當然一般性補助領得多，非六都的就領得少，是不是這樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看，最後還剩一個叫計畫型補助，如果照這樣子，富者恆富、貧者愈貧，那我們怎麼樣去改變，怎麼讓這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都提升，提升它財政的貢獻能力？我們常常說授人以魚不如授人以漁，就是說給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿，你同意吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以計畫型補助是不是說如果這些財政能力較差的縣市提出好的計畫型，那我中央就給你、幫助你提升，讓你未來的財政改善，這是不是中央調節地方均衡發展最重要的一個手段？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就像有錢人家不需要太多的支持，對窮人家的小孩，你幫助他上進、念書，他以後出了社會就可以改善他家庭的生活、經濟，這就是我們的目的嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問我們目前的新版財劃法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計畫型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：計畫型看起來它的餅就這麼大，因為就減少了很多，所以應該是比較難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看到這個圖，統籌分配稅款是根據你的財政貢獻度，這裡面六都比非六都來得強；我們再來看一般性補助款，飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來得多，中央能夠幫助的有限；最主要能夠調節臺灣各縣市均衡發展的就是計畫型補助，結果我們新版的財劃法雖然從中央拿9兆的稅款給地方，但是卻是擴大了都跟非都的差距，然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小，還是一樣，都比非都拿得多，最後讓非都得以翻身的計畫型補助，中央變少了，是不是這樣子？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們怎麼辦？來，我舉一個例子，現在我們來看一下，中央給地方多了4,165億的統籌分配稅款，不管水平怎麼分，請問地方政府的事權有沒有增加？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這一次財劃法沒談到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有談到，簡單講，就像我們辦一個團膳，50個人要吃一頓晚餐，給你一筆買菜的錢，結果人數沒增加，菜錢增加了，你覺得這頓菜要怎麼辦？是不是要辦得豐盛一點，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是速度要快一點？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以就你們審計的角度，如果地方政府獲得更多統籌分配稅款的分配，但是要做的事情、事權沒有增加，你覺得你審計的任務是不是更加重要？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我來請教一下，我們常常說有錢花跟儘量花，這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花，你知道還有第三種花嗎？就叫做拚命花。現在臺北市政府本來財政就比較好，這次財劃法下去的結果讓它又多了四、五百億，請問一下，你的審計單位有同時增加對臺北市政府的審計嗎？它多了這麼多錢，它不只是有錢花、它不只是儘量花，它還拚命花，事情沒增加，錢變多了，這樣會產生什麼問題？就是胡亂花嘛！那審計單位是不是要防止地方政府胡亂花？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是我們的職責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，時代在變、環境在變、潮流在變，審計長沒有變、審計法沒有變，但是地方、都的財源變多了，事情沒有增加，請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢怎麼花嚴加審計？是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有增加人手嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，那怎麼辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們現在是用科技、AI、數位來做，也要在地方這樣來做，如果必要的時候，我們會請增員額。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這是113年的審計報告，其中提到直轄市和縣市政府有計畫實施成效執行率偏低的情況、管理作業欠當，是不是這樣子？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有這樣的現象。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果我們的事權分配，地方的事情沒有增加，執行的量能沒有增加，你的審計人力也沒有增加，結果給它更多的錢，你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版財劃法之下做好你對地方政府的審計？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還是會盡到我們的職責，這是我們審計的主要職責，我們會再來加強監督的力道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果事權隨著財源來移轉到地方政府，譬如本來學校的電費是中央補助，現在地方政府錢多了，電費要自己出，對你們審計作業來講是不是比較合理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：像這個部分我們準備要進行聯合審計、科技審計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們再來問一下，之前我請教過你，屏東縣的自來水普及率墊底，全國是95%，臺北市是99.83%，屏東只有41%，那時候我跟你請教過普及率問題，屏東為22個縣市排最後面的，所以我就請教你，上次你說到相較於其他縣市，持續提高屏東縣自來水普及的預算效益是最好的，你是不是同意？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全同意，所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助，提高它的自來水改善，讓人民的生活品質提高，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在問你，這次財劃法公布之後，有9個縣市獲配的補助更少了，屏東是不是其中之一？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院有出來答應說不會低於114年度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是行政院的說法，請問這個錯誤怎麼發生的？我們看一下，這個是低級錯誤，財劃法第十六條之一，在野黨提出的法案，本島19個縣市和離島3個縣市統統以22個做分母，結果本島的部分有0.2%無法分配，離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配，你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個在立法上有稍微沒有注意到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的，中央的錢變少了，跑到其他有錢的都去了，請問就算財劃法在這個錯誤公式修改之後，你覺得改過之後的財劃法，對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響，中央還有錢做嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個前瞻第五期最近通過了，無自來水的部分大概有一百多億，我是希望能夠幫忙屏東，因為屏東……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要中央有錢，中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為那個預算已經過了，經濟部106億的部分，前瞻已經通過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等一下，你說的106億地方要不要配合款？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：地方一般都要有配合款。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果我們屏東在財劃法修改之後獲配的額數少於修法之前，就算中央的錢沒有減少，我們地方的能力變少了，我們的延管工程怎麼做，我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做，你覺得有什麼辦法？如果未來屏東的自來水改善不理想，審計部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府，還是要糾正經濟部？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為無自來水地區的改善屬於自來水公司，我們會糾正經濟部自來水公司，也會請自來水公司……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是巧婦難為無米之炊，我們的錢變少了，我們怎麼樣來如期完成？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為屏東是低的，當時委員質詢我的時候，我看到那個比例其實經過了一年增加不大……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是以前有錢，明年開始沒有錢了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以我希望這106億經濟部儘量用在屏東，用鼓勵的機制幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝審計長，感謝你，但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了，就算經濟部繼續支持、全力支持，我們的自備款、配合款還是不夠。","我們看下一題，我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼，每一胎補足到10萬，你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為少子化是一個國安問題，生育率也是滿低的，各種多元方式都要嘗試，這是一種嘗試的方式。我們在審計的時候，我記得這四年，它終於有提出一胎要發10萬啦！我認為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有效？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有沒有效總是一個獎勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講，你們自己審計部在2016年點名屏東33個鄉鎮，我們鄉鎮有做一些生育補貼，第四胎甚至大方送到10萬，結果屏東一樣，人口沒有增加，甚至還繼續減少，感覺上這樣的作法有沒有效果？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：全國都有這樣的現象，所以婚育宅也出來，一胎補助10萬也出來，這個都是我們當時查核所提出的建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們建議10萬嗎？還是養一個小孩統計說要668萬啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們沒有說要增加，要多元來處理這些事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多元。我們看一下，學者有研究過，中央研究院經濟所的研究員2023年說，如果獲得分配100萬以上，在往後的6年生育率會提高到多0.07個，別說給10萬了，給你100萬也增加不了0.1個；但如果給你1,000萬的話，每100個家庭就會多25個小孩，這好一點，你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1,000萬嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個對政府財政衝擊很大，所以要多元方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我請問一下，低生育率問題不是要不要生，而是沒有結婚要怎麼生？所以就有學者說低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩，而是不結婚。你覺得如果結婚每一個人第一次結婚，政府送他50萬的大紅包，你覺得怎麼樣？有機會嗎？他們會因此結婚嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員，我們的看法和你一樣，因為臺灣的子女大部分都是婚生子女，96%都婚生子女，所以讓他結婚是很重要的，這也是鼓勵的一種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：與其鼓勵生育，不如鼓勵結婚……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：兩個都要鼓勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你給我10萬，但我要養小孩到18歲，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我就不結婚，如果是給50萬讓我結婚，多少生小孩的事情我自己來處理。所以目前我們說結婚大禮包至少要50萬，現在是出10萬，這是不是拿來坐月子剛好？所以政府說只要產婦要坐月子，政府給你10萬塊坐月子，你覺得民眾是不是會覺得窩心？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這也是一種方式，可以雙管齊下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：雙管齊下，給你10萬塊坐月子，鼓勵盡量生育，好！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為能解決少子化，那是國安問題，政府要投入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：改善產婦的生活品質，好，我們繼續往下看。你看一看少子化對策，例如0到6歲國家養、友善家庭的職場、兒童健康權益保障、友善的生育配套，從107到114年，審計報告覺得有沒有效果？有沒有建議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有！如剛剛委員講的，從107到114年花掉國家七千多億，所以我們都有審計……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：包括委員講的，我們說結婚也要鼓勵，有人笑我說你這個腦筋好像……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再問一個話題，有沒有聽過民怨？明月幾時有，把酒問青天啊！但是現在換我來講：「民怨何處來，借問審計官」，為什麼民怨跟審計有關你知道嗎？我們以這次風災來看好了，你看鄉下的屋頂破一個洞和整個屋頂都翻起來，如果站在政府的角度，我們最多補助10萬；破一個洞的住戶我們補助一成，屋頂翻起來的我們補助100%、補助10萬，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這要看政府的財政能力，但是能儘量幫……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最多就10萬而已嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這些都是受災戶，要儘量幫助他們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講現在地方上遇到的情況，行政官員說如果你是破一個洞，我算一算面積僅達一成，10萬塊我才補助1萬；如果你是破很多洞，面積超過八成、九成，你想要全部翻修，我給你補助10萬，但是請教一下我屋頂破一個洞，我想要全部翻修，政府可以補助我10萬嗎？有沒有不合理？我的房子這麼老舊了，雖然破了一個洞，面積未達五成，我全部把它換新，政府是不是要補助我百分之百、補助我10萬？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：住宅的部分，內政部或者國土署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員事後審計的影響，如果今天內政部說，不管你破了一個洞，還是全部損壞，只要全部翻新，我就補助你10萬。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：報告委員，我們的審計是根據內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計，我們沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響，我來說……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們有在改變。"],["鍾委員佳濱：減少民怨不要用我們政府的審計來思考，我一間40年的老房子就算破了一個洞沒有超過三成，我全部換花了不只40萬，我要求政府足額補助我10萬有過分嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不過分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說民怨怎麼來？審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變，現在基層多做多錯、寫錯報告跑法院，其實你們審計現在在追蹤房損補助怎麼會颱風剛過去申請案件比較少，颱風已經過去很久了，申請案件多合理嗎？這樣合理嗎？應該是颱風過後會有很多人來申請，後來會越來越少，你覺得這樣哪一個合理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：應該颱風過去了，申請案件多比較合理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛好相反，因為颱風剛過去，四處都請不到工，我就算要翻新也找不到工，所以等到漸漸有工來做的時候，很多人就會來申請補助了，所以我才說審計的思維要改。檢討監督及評鑑模式，期望審計要體察民意，不要用政府的採購思維來要求人民，配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助。","最後，希望這三點的主張，請審計長回去好好研究，再給本席一個回應，好不好？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員的督促，我們審計的文化已經在慢慢改變，所以會照委員的意思來改變組織文化。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人陳審計長，謝謝。","接下來請林德福委員詢問，李坤城委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}