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不分黨派一同來為花蓮的搶災跟復原來努力才可以我問一句話 你看是誰講的建議透過媒體第三方釋出澄清且具殺傷力消息以立友軍民進黨立委和政務人員接著反擊請問這句話是誰說的"},{"start":118.383,"end":147.592,"text":"說的在有不同的前提底下或許講出這樣的方式在當時來看他是一個應對的方式殺傷在野黨是應對的方式我說有一個某種前提底下某種前提什麼前提啊為了自我的防衛在野黨當人還是不把我們花蓮鄉親當人前提是什麼告訴我什麼樣前提讓這句話變成是你覺得是可以講的剛剛講過的社會不信任造成的誤解你知道院長你知道發這個訊息的時候就是王定宇"},{"start":148.715,"end":176.477,"text":"沒錯吧 你知道吧不是 我說有一個前提存在那個前提就是我剛剛在那裡所說的我告訴你前提是什麼 院長 好不好社會誤解造成的扭曲 造成大家必須要澄清我告訴你前提是什麼前提是我們花蓮霞青埋在泥流堆裡面啊家破人亡啊所以羅委員 我說此時應該不分你知道他發這個訊息的時候請問有多少人埋在泥流裡面 多少人訊息的同時我們也是在現場救災還有什麼前提可論"},{"start":177.742,"end":201.314,"text":"院長我告訴你不需要為這種人背書啦真的當花蓮香氣埋在淋流裡面的時候結果王定宇要行政團隊校法科學先生Mr.科學先生製作攻擊圖卡他要take行政院的秘書長張敦涵副秘書長阮昭雄他在發這個訊息的時候"},{"start":203.499,"end":230.142,"text":"是我們的鄉親會埋在泥流堆裡面家破人亡的那個時候我直接送給王定宇四個字沒有人性截圖曝光之後王定宇嗆一堆叛徒然後退出群組我要告訴王定宇你才是台灣人民的叛徒你是今天花蓮鄉親的叛徒你對不起今天在花蓮受災受苦的花蓮的鄉親"},{"start":232.807,"end":260.069,"text":"只有王定宇這樣嗎不是耶 跟院長報告一下林淑芬等立委 民進黨立委跟著討論 很熱烈啊林淑芬tag張敦涵說公文死亡人民分佈圖很重要他還回應王定宇說你這樣寫的文周周耶可以直接一點耶王定宇說到這種程度還叫文周周請問什麼叫做血淋淋啊"},{"start":262.466,"end":291.724,"text":"林淑芬等一眾民進黨的立委跟著王定宇在我們花蓮鄉親最痛的時候大吃人血饅頭這是讓我覺得看不下去的事情我作為花蓮子弟我沒辦法接受的事情我接下來問一下院長請問到目前為止光復鄉災情狀況傷亡人數失聯人數多少死亡的人數到達18人失聯現在應該是6位吧6位"},{"start":294.447,"end":317.859,"text":"18個人命結果是民進黨口中的鬥爭的工具18個人命在災害發生的時候請問那個群組最該討論不是救災嗎不是救災救災救災救命救命救命但是討論是怎麼殺傷在野黨絕大部分的內容都是在討論如何協助如何救災我要跟院長說我跟你講院長"},{"start":321.374,"end":342.427,"text":"我今天沒有怪你啊 因為你沒站在院前處你講話嘛你不需要為這種沒有人性的話來去背書啦光富鄉災害發生第一時間 我不只是捐款我馬上打電話給傅坤祺 打電話給高金淑那選區也在原鄉 也是受害的原鄉在商量怎麼在全台調動機具"},{"start":344.124,"end":365.508,"text":"要動物資就像你剛剛講的產值超人大家齊心齊力腦袋想就是說我怎麼樣去幫助災民我真的沒有辦法想像怎麼會有一秒鐘騰出時間來在裡面去發訊息跟大家討論怎麼去殺傷釋放殺傷力的訊息我想到一件事情我也來問問我們的院長2009年88風災的時候"},{"start":371.671,"end":394.603,"text":"當時行政院秘書長薛江川他是加班投入救災但是因為他抽空陪他95歲的老岳父吃了一頓晚餐你知道發生什麼事情嗎因此被媒體討論後來辭官了對啊其中對他攻擊最用力的就是蔡英文總統他說什麼蔡英文說氣到想砸電視"},{"start":397.478,"end":415.404,"text":"說哪英九別想全身而退至少要斷一隻手臂來 我要問院長你看到王定宇這些立委表現你有沒有氣到想砸電視啊想到什麼你有沒有氣到想砸電視啊我請問把電視送到災區去對 很好電視送到災區去"},{"start":417.145,"end":445.083,"text":"你有沒有想要讓賴清德斷一隻手臂啊你把手袋收到災區去我們都會努力在救災我要講什麼在討論的同時整個內容討論的同時我想絕大部分都是在討論救災啦我告訴你啊我要講的重點是什麼當初88風災的時候蔡英文是怎麼看這行政團隊吃一頓晚餐跟老岳父吃一頓晚餐就可以氣到要砸一件事想要斷一條手想要斷馬英九一條手臂"},{"start":446.283,"end":455.208,"text":"結果今天民進黨的立委在群組裡面大吃人血饅頭看你好像也覺得有前提就好啊"},{"start":456.101,"end":458.603,"text":"所以我們的社會如果少一點這樣的扭曲謝謝 勸勸民進黨的立委少一種這種政治鬥爭的思維共同努力 對 我認同你這句話"},{"start":479.005,"end":503.167,"text":"但是今天我就要幫我們花蓮鄉親說出心中的我真的是憤怒跟難過我們用更多的救災實際的行動來給鄉親們更多的安全保障院長下一個問題你的秘書長張敦涵在民進黨群組裡面也有接收這個訊息你的副秘書長阮昭雄還是回應收到了我想請問"},{"start":505.248,"end":526.718,"text":"張秘書長 阮副秘書長有跟你回報這件事情嗎我並不知道他收到是收到哪一則訊息他直接回那個殺傷力的訊息說收到啦就像委員所在這幾天當中我們真的無心再討論這件事情你今天沒有心思去搞這些鬥爭我今天感謝你啦"},{"start":527.847,"end":551.25,"text":"但是你們的民進黨的立法院就非常有心思啦我來問你吼 有沒有跟你回報嘛當然沒有嘛 那想請問他如果跟你回報你會認同嗎我會問到你收到什麼訊息 我們要做什麼回覆要搞清楚我才能做下一個判斷下一個要問您吼 請問院長你目前去花蓮災區幾次了"},{"start":553.765,"end":577.184,"text":"從事件發生到到今天兩次兩次謝謝院長對花蓮的支持應該的這是我們該做的事我相信院長到花蓮也看過很多災民親自互動對不對你也會跟他們來鼓勵他們來撫慰一下災民的現在的一個情緒對不對我在很多人的身上學習到更多我想請問院長你看到災區的孩童會說他們"},{"start":579.431,"end":593.318,"text":"你呕呕嗎臉黑黑嗎會不會這樣講所以你也覺得你也會這樣講院長你看到災區婦女你會說他們的丈夫身體都不好嗎你會這樣講嗎你看你都認住了因為你也講不出來了院長你看到救災人員給他Give me five嗎擊掌Give me five嗎"},{"start":607.162,"end":628.482,"text":"我們都握住他那雙泥泞的雙手覺得非常的感動對啊 我們一般是握住雙手非常感動的感謝他有會 你嗨到去KIMIFI嗎 會嗎有的當地的那個志工或是我們院長這些事情都沒有做啦你也知道 我知道你為什麼那麼緊張啦他都會說我手很髒 不要不要都會這樣講我告訴你"},{"start":630.865,"end":657.508,"text":"我們做政治人物跟選民在互動哪有怕選民手髒的這基本嘛不是我說對那個志工說我手很髒即便是如此我們都還是會主動握手嘛這本來就基本的嘛那我還要說我剛剛講這三件事你都不會做啊但是你為什麼那麼緊張因為都不是你做的啊都是在新的總統做的啊我要先跟你講啊我們的親朋好友罹難房子被泥沙沖滅"},{"start":659.5,"end":669.501,"text":"身家財產一夕泡湯我們一般人是不會說這些話也不會擠這些掌的對災民來說你不覺得這樣做法很白目嗎"},{"start":673.233,"end":694.054,"text":"外面對這個評論我想你也看到了我說過在一整天的救災的過程當中都拿出一句話來做一些不必要的聯想我想這個大可不必我告訴院長今天總統洞見觀瞻我倒是沒看到你出這些新聞你都做得到我們總統做不到總統做的比我們都多"},{"start":695.351,"end":721.79,"text":"總統的白目的話說的比你多啦我跟你講 總統到底是人血還是白目不要我來判斷 台灣人民去判斷啦我們不要在這個時候做這樣的一個批評 我拜託可是我告訴你啊不對不對 院長不對今天這不是批評我是為總統好 我是為賴總統好今天他講這些不合時宜的話 不得體的話已經不是第一次了嘛你們也痛苦 我知道啦"},{"start":723.22,"end":745.872,"text":"南台灣風災 災民屋頂被吹走我們總統說叫災民自己爬 自己爬啦災民手機沒訊號 他可以嗆災民說郭國仁有啊歷歷在目啊歷歷在目啊那我要問啊 這樣總統你叫我不要叫他白目好啦 我不是那位白目嘛那我就叫他進會地可以吧何不實弄民不就在他身上具體產線嗎"},{"start":749.997,"end":772.259,"text":"如果委員有參與到我們共同討論災區的事情的時候你大概一定不會用我跟院長報告說過我不是沒有在政府工作過災救災的場合我也看過很多這幾天如果你瞭解我們之間的討論你相信我是善意的我告訴你真的這些話在災民的耳中"},{"start":774.005,"end":788.404,"text":"但你們現在的官員我沒看會講出這麼你不喜歡聽白目嗎這麼敬惠帝的話本黨團我們討論決定要提出華家衰風災及花蓮光復煙澀湖潰絕災後重建條例"},{"start":791.257,"end":811.81,"text":"那希望能夠在考量花蓮縣政府地方的需求提出最完整的機制最完整的方式來提出特別條例早日完成災後重建讓災民重回正常生活你支持嗎報告委員為了早日完成災後的重建以及現在馬上能夠投入救災我們在"},{"start":814.685,"end":838.475,"text":"丹納斯颱風跟728暴雨後的復原重建條例當中我們已經把花蓮當作災區化定為災區而且這個顏色湖也是在丹納斯豪雨之後所形成的所以它適用絕對沒有問題所以這個條例這個特別預算直接可以引用這是最快最有效率的院長你講的這些我都看到你發言的回答就是這樣"},{"start":840.282,"end":854.65,"text":"我跟你講你們不講就還好啦一講齁就是提醒大家你知道把花蓮煙色湖工程納入丹納斯重建特別條例就是國民黨黨團在八月朝野協商時候所提出啊"},{"start":856.532,"end":872.798,"text":"當時決議行政院督導公共工程委員會農業部經濟部花蓮縣政府掩體減災監測疏散跟工程方案其中減災的措施我想你知道吧包括建立預警系統加強監測評估天然霸體穩定性預測匱霸影響範圍點點點"},{"start":877.133,"end":905.279,"text":"我也謝謝委員能夠注意到這一點不過這個條例的本身的名稱就叫做丹納斯颱風及728豪雨後重建復原沒關係我們一點一點來談我告訴你今天在這件事情上我是就跟你我們大家理性來討論怎麼做比較好行政院我剛剛前面講這個監測啊檢測啊有沒有確實落實我們從7月26號就加強了所有的檢測"},{"start":906.101,"end":910.164,"text":"我告訴院長但是你們做的來結論竟然是陳俊濟部長說經評估沒有立即潰堤的風險我要跟院長說我要跟院長說"},{"start":933.183,"end":941.276,"text":"坦白講我問這些話都不是來究責的啦究責是之後慢慢做可是今天我非常關切的就是災害重建條例"},{"start":942.557,"end":966.623,"text":"你說丹納斯颱風的特別條例就能夠cover了嘛對不對是請問總經費多少現在600億如果將來有真的實際上是不足夠的時候我們還可以透過追加預算的方式來補這個特別的預算非常好來我想請問你當時納入菸澀火處置的相關經費那時候是沒有發生災情的前提之下編的這600億我們有預備金"},{"start":968.283,"end":989.315,"text":"那所在沒有災情情況之下編這600億吧 沒錯吧 對不對那現在請問你喔 那目前你覺得重建經費需要多少這個還要再詳細的評估 不能夠 已經8天了餒23號到現在8天了餒因為很多的房屋 需要多少時間可以評估出來還有很多的農損 現在還沒有完全的能夠查報上不是 院長那你告訴我你需要多少時間可以評估出來"},{"start":990.441,"end":1013.153,"text":"多少時間我想我們現在在中秋節之前先讓大家回顧基本的生活你到現在也沒辦法回答這個問題中秋節之後一個月我們會把它做一個總整理一個月啊你知道八八風災重建條例災害發生多久多久就已經制定了我們這已經有經費可以用了我問你事實問題啦多久制定八八風災重建條例在災害發生後"},{"start":1016.131,"end":1043.353,"text":"那我們現在已經有預算可以用了不是現在沒有我在這邊請求你把精確需要預算多少你估出來你也沒做到啊你連日期都不告訴我啊甚至我跟你講你連當事台風的特別條例最先提的還是國民黨黨團我們提了以後民進黨黨團才在我們的協商所院長主持的協商當場表示你們贊同那個東西晚一個月你知道嗎我們沒提我也不知道你們到底要不要提啊"},{"start":1044.266,"end":1066.222,"text":"所以我回頭講就是說今天如果你真的反對要另外做重建條例你起碼告訴我今天你要多少的預算面對如此重大的天災第二個我也跟院長說兩個颱風的性質不相同他面對到所需要的重建的所謂的範圍跟重建的所謂的內容的項目也不相同"},{"start":1067.341,"end":1090.579,"text":"所以也不要那麼快就立刻打掉說今天不用一個專門性專案性的特別條例我原諒您誤會了我的意思是說我們現在用這種方式是最快的我跟你講雙軌可以並進嘛你如果說丹納斯來 院長你聽我講我今天真的是理性跟你討論這個事情我心中完全是個花蕾如果你方案好也很好丹納斯颱風特別條例有編600億預算這600億預算是在沒有顏色匯題一流的時候"},{"start":1096.73,"end":1123.937,"text":"編的預算他絕對是不夠的嘛因為沒有設想今天的狀況你怎麼跟我講預想是夠的呢這基本前提應該沒錯吧他一定會有一些超出當初的想法對啊一定超出來嘛那就來了那你就可以看到這兩個災害的屬性就不相同那是其實最主要是風災跟降雨嘛但是今天我們花蓮光復鄉最最重要的一個災情的源頭就是煙澀湖的潰堤嘛"},{"start":1124.936,"end":1142.805,"text":"我不是完全反對委員所提的方式我說現在這個時間點我們全力把它恢復基本生活正常我們可以朝這個方向來講什麼方式最快讓災民最快得到照顧我們王中央來講我跟你講這一點我沒有反駁你為什麼你知道嗎可以齊頭並進嘛假如你跟我講600億裡面你還有20億的餘裕"},{"start":1145.982,"end":1154.18,"text":"他說我們原來的規模大概580億就做得到還剩下20億我可以用來先來做今天花蓮這個部分我OK 我覺得非常好"},{"start":1155.103,"end":1175.788,"text":"但是絕對不夠你一定相信嘛絕對不夠的時候你要跟我講追加預算也是一條路啊不否認啊但是為什麼你今天不針對這個災害而且我跟你講它是有一個指標意義的為什麼你知道嗎為什麼今天國民黨立法院要提這個重建條例因為這個從這一個災害有一個特殊性跟過去災害不一樣就是顏色潰體"},{"start":1178.205,"end":1193.591,"text":"這個煙色湖潰堤你今天有一個重建條例我們好好在重建條例裡面去檢視今天怎麼面對煙色湖這個危機它是其實是有向未來警示的重要意義它跟一般的颱風的災害重建條例它是不相同的"},{"start":1194.517,"end":1212.14,"text":"我這一點建設性的建議我希望至少院長你不要馬上去否定嘛我沒有否定我說你可以帶回去研究吧我最新想的是說我們用什麼最快的方式讓災民避難道理嗎那對於煙澀湖災害造成這樣大的一個情況我告訴你我真的是拜託你啦"},{"start":1212.961,"end":1240.262,"text":"不要拘泥在這一件事情上主委要不要談一下菸社會的事情因為他們已經做過很多的研究目前是在搶災搶險啦所以居民的維生系統包括家裡的水電馬桶這個都沒有而且是高達兩三千戶所以目前緊急的在做這個那我就問嘛請教還是問院長的問題剛剛院長沒答出來請問大概這個重建要花多少錢"},{"start":1241.588,"end":1257.716,"text":"現在在搶災搶險所以重建的部分上沒有辦法你看嘛我跟你講院長我真的這樣講今天如果你願意採取我剛講的方式這兩個方式不衝突嘛但是你不要一開始先預定了讓大家覺得好像今天"},{"start":1258.991,"end":1287.338,"text":"我們現在所有人關心的花蓮在你的心目當中好像沒藥沒勁 我的感覺是這樣我以為你這樣是絕對的誤會但我知道你覺得你不是這樣可是你今天回答我的過程我就覺得你把自己畫的圈圈這麼狹隘這麼限縮馬上可以做的事情就先做了院長我拜託跟你拜託最後一次你不做也沒關係我們到立法院我們到院長協商的時候我們來慢慢討論要馬上就說不要啦"},{"start":1288.766,"end":1315.434,"text":"就說過煙色湖的災情跟一般風災災情就是不相同你那600億規模就是沒有涵蓋這個這個所謂的災害的規模那有一個專門性的重建條例真的沒有什麼沒有今天議課一定跟我講說不行就是不行沒有這回事最後我想再請教我們那個院長你知道這一次我們看到這一次花蓮的這個災害"},{"start":1317.947,"end":1341.12,"text":"當然還是非常感謝八八中央地方都有出動可是現在很多東西你看到中央地方之間有非常多的矛盾你知道八八風災的時候當時內政部長廖瑤宇直接衝到災區就坐鎮兩個禮拜你知道吧你知道我們的劉兆璇院長也直接進駐八軍團裡面進駐在那邊督導救災"},{"start":1344.639,"end":1355.278,"text":"我沒有要你做到那個程度我這邊直接問你一件事我也幫花蓮請命你去兩次很辛苦啦也謝謝你啦應該的我想請問中央官員"},{"start":1356.527,"end":1379.06,"text":"不管是院長 副院長 部長還是次長你有什麼層級願意常駐花蓮去做統合協調的工作那就是很複雜的我剛說過賴建信次長已經從開始到現在還有我們環境部的省次長還有原民會的股仲副主委還有國軍國防部的艾少將今天我又請紀政委"},{"start":1379.8,"end":1395.189,"text":"紀念城政委去 又請李某郵顧問去希望賴建信市長能回來再說明現在的狀況非常好 我跟院長建議啦讓中央地方可以通暢你要有一個常駐性的主責官員在那個地方真的"},{"start":1396.081,"end":1416.549,"text":"這按照88風釵我們過去的經驗啦現在真的 我今天在這裡不想去講說是哪邊有責任的問題這責任 我說的究責後面時間多的是究責不是為了今天是要打擊哪一個殺傷哪一個政黨 不是喔究責是為了要為未來去預防再次發生去檢驗環節 沒錯吧 對不對"},{"start":1418.53,"end":1432.606,"text":"所以今天但今天是萬事末如救災集我沒有打算在這個地方跟你談救責問題但是我只是真中心的勸告按照過去我們遇到災害的做法為花蓮人請命你要有一個專責的常設性的官員"},{"start":1433.732,"end":1461.703,"text":"至少次長級以上要常住在那個地方幫忙解決所有災害重建協調跟委員討論就是過去我們歷次這種重大災害讓我們的災防法一直的精進我們現在一定先強化中央應變中心那到地方災害發生一開始我們就設前進協調所跟地方政府一起合作現在是災防法這樣的設計如果這個設計不當我們可以檢討那目前災防法就是依照過去的經驗一直精進演練到現在"},{"start":1464.158,"end":1469.975,"text":"我今天拜託你拍個專責官員下去你都搬一堆法律出來那我直接告訴你院長我告訴你啦"},{"start":1473.11,"end":1499.085,"text":"我就是有參與救災經驗的人賴市長已經在那邊一個禮拜了我就舉個例子就像你今天跟我講這些東西我沒辦法聽下去你要原諒我沒辦法就像賴新德總統一直在強調國軍不能進到人家家裡面去就是一個莫名其妙的說法我們國民黨執政就不是這個樣子救災勢同作戰協調所之後賴市長也在那邊股仲副主委也在那邊你們很多東西我都覺得我也搞不太懂"},{"start":1500.563,"end":1528.073,"text":"你現在在萬事末路救災急救你搬一堆礦房條這礦房條存不存在都是個問號來我想請教院長明年度國防預算我們在慶德總統說要增加到3.32%嘛對不對2030年要增加GDP的5%嘛對不對這是我們的目標我們朝著目標前進這是國家安全的需要我們代總統也說要提升國軍生活待遇照顧國軍嘛對不對"},{"start":1530.114,"end":1556.429,"text":"我想請教你我們現在明年度國防預算編列總額高達9495億比今年要增加1768億 史上最高可是我不太懂保家衛國的軍人現在戰爭風險這麼高我們立法院已經通過軍人待遇提升的那個預算條例結果你們預算一毛不編為什麼"},{"start":1560.194,"end":1582.144,"text":"已經跟外界說明過 再跟委員說明一次你不用說明 我知道 你說要釋憲啦你要釋憲嘛有290幾億來來來 我跟你講下一句話警察原人事條例也是保障我們提高退休警銷的待遇跟它的一個保障你們行政院也是不編預算"},{"start":1583.544,"end":1610.619,"text":"就是預算編列是行政院在編列那這個的形成程序但是我要跟國務院報告我們對義務役的志願役戰鬥部隊你要跟我講說你過去有加薪哪個政府對我們的軍方叫沒有加薪我們只是不需要這種齊頭式的而且一次這麼大幅度的這對其他公務人員來講會形成一種不公平的狀態我跟院長講你這段話只會讓我們的軍人寒心讓警校寒心啦不是啦"},{"start":1611.459,"end":1631.573,"text":"我今天話要說的重的原因是什麼我們國民黨一路捍衛軍人的尊嚴捍衛警消的尊嚴 這尊嚴包括合理的待遇今天兩岸兵兇戰危你難道為保家衛國國軍增加待遇有這麼難嗎你國防預算都要增加9400億我們今年編了59億 將近60億的預算在今年的預算裡面啊你告訴我 你告訴我"},{"start":1639.659,"end":1663.463,"text":"按照我們的軍人待遇條例跟警察人員人事條例所要編列的預算有沒有編我們就認為應該等到大法官就事先復讐決定之後如果違憲我們就不編如果合憲我們就編而且可以追溯編院長你這個話只能去騙不懂法律的人"},{"start":1664.67,"end":1669.719,"text":"大法官釋憲 請問作出緊急處分了沒有有沒有作出緊急處分 目前為止"},{"start":1672.584,"end":1693.778,"text":"今天如果大法官認為這個是違憲的違憲之餘你要凍結法律下要有緊急處分沒有緊急處分的情況之下法律就是有效真正的大法官釋憲的流程應該是你今天我們法律生效你要執行你大法官做緊急處分凍結他就可以不執行沒有凍結繼續執行釋憲出來違憲之後不執行"},{"start":1697.06,"end":1721.326,"text":"你能不能努力讓大法官開的成會我告訴你憲法訴訟法今天大法官成為什麼樣那是另外一個憲政問題我跟你講是現在憲法的基本邏輯道理可是我要跟你講今天在這裡我非常遺憾我遺憾的是什麼過去一路來羅志祥就挺軍人挺警消"},{"start":1722.774,"end":1745.277,"text":"停我們的公教因為我們也準備推出停侃不合理的年金的這個政策院長你支持嗎政府跟怎麼樣跟國軍是並肩站在一起我要告訴院長因為時間也不多我做個很快的結論台灣今天有這個奇蹟十大建設建設台積電然後到今天我們有這樣的榮光"},{"start":1746.753,"end":1764.678,"text":"軍公教是最大的一個資助啦你不否認吧不否認對啊但是你民進黨上來之後你去想想看對軍人今天預算那個條例通過你不編預算對錦霄條例通過你不編預算對於公教我剛剛講你剛剛說不編預算你都有點釋憲嘛對於公教對於公教你今天我們要求只是停砍"},{"start":1773.46,"end":1794.75,"text":"年金不是回到2017年的這個年金之前你也一樣不願意給軍公教最起碼的保障跟尊嚴我在這邊要跟院長直接說今天我們立法院確實有在討論今天怎麼面對總預算我們現在希望院長來召開我們朝野協商"},{"start":1795.811,"end":1825.209,"text":"我希望今天行政院能夠在協商的時候能夠正面回憶依法行政這四個字如果做不到 羅志強這邊直接說下個禮拜二我就提復議了大家不需要到這種程度嗎今天我們為了什麼就是為了捍衛軍人公教跟警校的尊嚴拜託你們把它們放在心上 謝謝我們一樣護衛軍人警校的尊嚴跟他的基本福利我們也逐年在做提高"},{"start":1829.284,"end":1829.305,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（15時21分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。今天站在這個質詢臺上，我的心情是很沉重的，因為我是花蓮出生的小孩，也是花蓮子弟，所以當看到光復鄉堰塞湖潰堤所造成的人員傷亡，事實上我感到很難過。在第一時間，我自己宣布捐款50萬元，同時中國國民黨立法院黨團也宣布捐款50萬元，除了表達一點心意之外，我們中國國民黨立法院黨團也準備提出樺加沙颱風以及花蓮光復鄉堰塞湖潰堤的災害重建條例，這是在花蓮最困難的時候，希望能夠用我們的職責、用我們的力量來幫助花蓮能夠走出傷痛，重建家園，所以這一刻我們都是花蓮人、都是光復人。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：院長，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝您的認同，但是我要很遺憾地說，恐怕不是所有民進黨的人都是這麼想的。"],["卓院長榮泰：此時應該不分政黨、不分黨派，一同為花蓮的搶災跟復原來努力。"],["羅委員智強：我問一句話，你看是誰講的？「建議透過媒體、第三方釋出澄清且具殺傷力消息，以利友軍、民進黨立委和政務人員接著反擊。」請問這句話是誰說的？誰說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：在不同的前提底下或許講出這樣的方式，在當時來看它是一個應對的方式，不要去……"],["羅委員智強：殺傷在野黨是應對的方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我是說有某種前提底下做出這樣的方式……"],["羅委員智強：某種前提，什麼前提啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：為了自我的防衛，但我認為……"],["羅委員智強：不把在野黨當人，還是不把花蓮鄉親當……告訴我前提是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：它並沒有……"],["羅委員智強：什麼樣的前提讓這句話變成你覺得是可以講的？"],["卓院長榮泰：可能針對一種剛剛講過的社會不信任造成的誤解，這個誤解……"],["羅委員智強：院長，你知道發這個訊息的就是王定宇，沒錯吧？你知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我是說有一個前提存在，那個前提就是我剛剛在這裡所說的社會的誤解……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我告訴你前提是什麼，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：社會誤解造成的扭曲，造成大家必須要澄清。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你前提是什麼！我告訴你前提是什麼！前提是我們花蓮鄉親埋在泥流堆裡面，家破人亡啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員，所以我說此時應該不分黨派……"],["羅委員智強：你知道他發這個訊息的時候，請問有多少人埋在泥流裡面？多少人？"],["卓院長榮泰：訊息的同時，我們也是在現場救災。"],["羅委員智強：還有什麼前提可論！院長，我告訴你，真的不需要為這種人背書啦！當花蓮鄉親埋在泥流裡面的時候，王定宇要行政團隊效法Mr.柯學先生製作攻擊圖卡，他還tag行政院的秘書長張惇涵、副秘書長阮昭雄。他在發這個訊息的時候，是我們的鄉親被埋在泥流堆裡面，家破人亡的那個時候，我直接送給王定宇四個字──沒有人性！截圖曝光之後，王定宇嗆一堆叛徒，然後退出群組，我要告訴王定宇，你才是臺灣人民的叛徒，你是今天花蓮鄉親的叛徒，你對不起今天在花蓮受災受苦的花蓮鄉親。","只有王定宇這樣嗎？不是，跟院長報告一下，林淑芬等民進黨立委跟著討論很熱烈，林淑芬tag張惇涵說公文死亡人民分布圖很重要，她還回應王定宇說你這樣寫得文謅謅，可以直接一點，王定宇說到這種程度都還叫文謅謅，請問什麼叫做血淋淋？林淑芬等一眾民進黨立委跟著王定宇，在我們花蓮鄉親最痛的時候，大吃人血饅頭，這是讓我最看不下去的事情，我作為花蓮子弟，我沒辦法接受的事情。","我接下來問一下院長，請問到目前為止，光復鄉災情狀況，傷亡人數、失聯人數多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：死亡的人數到了18人。失聯現在應該是6位。"],["羅委員智強：6位。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：18個人命，結果是民進黨口中的鬥爭工具。"],["卓院長榮泰：並不是如此。"],["羅委員智強：18個人命在災害發生的時候，請問那個群組最該討論的不是救災嗎？不是救災、救災、救災、救命、救命、救命，還是討論怎麼殺傷在野黨？"],["卓院長榮泰：絕大部分內容都是在討論如何協助、如何救災，我們該學習的對象是所有的鏟子超人。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟院長說，我今天沒有怪你，因為你沒在群組裡講話，你不需要為這種沒有人性的話來背書啦。光復鄉災害發生第一時間，我不只是捐款，我馬上打電話給傅崐萁，打電話給高金素梅，因為他們的選區也在受害的原鄉，商量怎麼在全臺調動機具、調動物資，就像你剛剛講的鏟子超人，大家齊心齊力，腦袋想的就是我怎麼樣去幫助災民，我真的沒有辦法想像怎麼會有時間騰出一秒鐘來在裡面發訊息，跟大家討論怎麼去釋放殺傷力的訊息。","我想到一件事情，我也來問問我們的院長，2009年八八風災的時候，當時的行政院秘書長薛香川，他是加班投入救災，但是因為他抽空陪95歲的老岳父吃了一頓晚餐，你知道發生什麼事情吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：就因此被媒體討論，後來辭官了。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，其中對他攻擊最用力的就是蔡英文總統，他說什麼？蔡英文說氣到想砸電視，說馬英九別想全身而退，至少要斷一隻手臂。我要問院長，你看到王定宇這些立委的表現，你有沒有氣到想砸電視？"],["卓院長榮泰：我情願把電視送到災區去。"],["羅委員智強：對，很好，電視送到災區去。你有沒有想要讓賴清德斷一隻手臂，把手臂送到災區去？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都很努力在救災，我們都很努力在救災。"],["羅委員智強：不要講什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：整個內容討論的同時，我想絕大部分都是在討論救災啦。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你我要講的重點是什麼？當初八八風災的時候，蔡英文是怎麼看這些行政團隊，跟老岳父吃頓晚餐就可以氣到要砸電視，想要斷馬英九一條手臂，結果今天民進黨立委在群組裡面大吃人血饅頭，我看你好像也覺得有前提就好啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：此時此刻，應該不分黨派，全心全力救災。"],["羅委員智強：當然啦，那你要去跟民進黨立委講嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們的社會如果少一點這樣的扭曲，那……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，勸勸民進黨的立委，少一種這種政治鬥爭的思維。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們共同來努力，從我們切身做起。"],["羅委員智強：共同努力，對，我認同你這一句話，但是今天我就要幫我們花蓮鄉親說出心中的話，我真的是憤怒跟難過。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們用更多的救災、實際的行動，給鄉親們更多的安全保障。"],["羅委員智強：院長，下一個問題，你的秘書長張惇涵在民進黨群組裡面也有接收這個訊息，你的副秘書長阮昭雄還回應收到了，我想請問，張秘書長、阮副秘書長有跟你回報這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我並不知道他是收到哪一則訊息，這個他沒有……"],["羅委員智強：他直接回那個提到殺傷力的訊息說收到了。"],["卓院長榮泰：就像委員所說的，在這幾天當中我們真的無心討論這件事。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，你今天沒有心思去搞這些鬥爭，我感謝你啦！但是你們民進黨的立法委員就非常有心思。"],["卓院長榮泰：很多的同仁還是全力……"],["羅委員智強：我問你有沒有跟你回報嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：當然沒有。請問他如果跟你回報，你會認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會問他收到什麼訊息，我們要做什麼回復，要搞清楚我才能做下一個判斷。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝。下一個要問您，請問院長您目前去花蓮災區幾次？"],["卓院長榮泰：從事件發生到現在兩次。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝院長對花蓮的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該的，這是我們該做的事。"],["羅委員智強：我相信院長到花蓮也看過很多災民，對不對？親自互動嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["羅委員智強：你也會鼓勵他們，撫慰一下災民現在的情緒，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我在很多人身上學習到更多。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請問，院長你看到災區的孩童，你會說他們臉黑黑嗎？會不會這樣講？"],["卓院長榮泰：那是因為他也幫忙清理家庭，所以臉上沾滿污泥，出於一種關心……"],["羅委員智強：所以你覺得你也會這樣講？"],["卓院長榮泰：幫他擦去臉上的污泥，我想這也是人之常情。"],["羅委員智強：院長你看到災區婦女，你會說他們的丈夫身體都不好嗎？會這樣講嗎？你看你又愣住了，因為你也講不出來了。院長你看到救災人員會跟他擊掌give me five嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都握住他那雙泥濘的雙手，覺得非常的感動。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，我們一般是握住雙手，非常感動的感謝他，會high到去give me five嗎？會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有些當地的志工或人員……"],["羅委員智強：院長，這些事你都沒有做啦，我知道你為什麼那麼緊張啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：他們都會說手很髒，不要！不要！都會這樣講，我們還是跟他做一個……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，我們做政治人物，跟選民在互動哪有怕選民手髒的？這是基本嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我是說那個志工說自己手很髒，我們都還是……"],["羅委員智強：即便是如此，我們都還是會主動握手，這本來就是基本的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛講這三件事情你都不會做啊！但是你為什麼那麼緊張？因為都不是你做的啊！都是賴清德總統做的。我要先跟你講，如果我們的親朋好友罹難，房子被泥沙沖滅，身家財產一夕泡湯，我們一般人是不會說這些話，也不會擊這些掌，對災民來說，你不覺得這樣的作法很白目嗎？外面對這件事的評論，我想你也看到了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我說過在一整天的救災過程當中，只拿出一句話來做一些不必要的聯想，我想這個大可不必，整個過程當中……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，我告訴院長，今天總統動見觀瞻，我倒是沒看到你出這些新聞啦，你都做得到，我們總統做不到？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統做得比我們都多啊！"],["羅委員智強：總統白目的話說得比你多啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啦！委員不要誤會啦！"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，總統到底是冷血還是白目不要我來判斷，臺灣人民去判斷啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，不要在這個時候做這樣一個批評，拜託！我們還是回到剛剛說的，我們重建一個社會的信任……"],["羅委員智強：不對！不對！院長不對，今天這不是批評，我這是為總統好……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們重建一個社會的信任。"],["羅委員智強：我是為賴總統好，因為他講這些不合時宜的話、不得體的話已經不是第一次了，你們也痛苦我知道啦。南臺灣風災，災民屋頂被吹走，我們總統叫災民自己爬；災民手機沒訊號，他可以嗆災民說郭國文有。歷歷在目啊！那我要問這樣的總統，你叫我不要叫他白目，好啦！我不稱他為白目嘛，那我叫他晉惠帝可以吧？「何不食肉糜」不就在他身上具體展現嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員有參與到我們共同討論災區的事情的話，你一定不會用這樣的話……"],["羅委員智強：我跟院長報告，我說過我不是沒有在政府工作過，勘災、救災的場合我也看過很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說這幾天如果你了解我們之間的討論……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你相信我是善意的。"],["卓院長榮泰：了解總統對國軍的支持……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，真的，這些話在災民的耳中，一般你們現在的官員，我也沒看到會講出這麼……好，你不喜歡聽白目嘛，這麼晉惠帝的話。本黨團討論決定要提出樺加沙風災暨花蓮光復堰塞湖潰決災後重建條例，希望能夠考量花蓮縣政府地方的需求，以最完整的機制、最完整的方式來提出特別條例，早日完成災後重建，讓災民重回正常生活，你支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，為了早日完成災後的重建，以及現在馬上能夠投入救災，在丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別條例當中，我們已經把花蓮當作災區、劃定為災區，而且這個堰塞湖也是在丹娜絲豪雨之後所形成的，它適用絕對沒有問題，所以這個條例、這個特別預算直接可以引用，這是最快、最有效率的。"],["羅委員智強：院長，你講的這些我都看到了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["羅委員智強：你發言的回答就是這樣。我跟你講，你們不講就還好啦！一講就是提醒大家，你知道把花蓮堰塞湖工程納入丹娜絲颱風重建特別條例，就是國民黨黨團在8月朝野協商的時候所提出啊！當時決議行政院督導公共工程委員會、農業部、經濟部、花蓮縣政府研提減災、監測、疏散跟工程方案，其中減災的措施，我想你知道吧！包括建立預警系統、加強監測、評估天然壩體穩定性、預測潰壩影響範圍……"],["卓院長榮泰：我很謝謝委員能夠注意到這一點，不過這個條例本身的名稱就叫做丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我們一點一點來談。"],["卓院長榮泰：它形成的所有原因都可以納進來。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，今天在這件事情上我們大家理性來討論，看怎麼做比較好。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛前面講的監測、檢測，行政院有沒有確實落實？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從7月26號就加強了所有的檢測，其中的數據相當相當地多。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴院長，但是你們做出來的結論竟然是，陳駿季部長說經評估沒有立即潰堤的風險。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我要請陳部長在這個議場裡面再度回應，他是在講8月12號面對楊柳颱風的那個侵犯的時候，當時是沒有立即的危險。如果我有講錯，請部長再重複。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟院長說，坦白講，我問這些話都不是來究責的，究責是之後慢慢做啦！可是今天我非常關切災害重建條例，你說丹娜絲颱風的特別條例就能夠cover了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：請問現在總經費多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：600億，如果將來真的實際上不足夠的時候，我們還可以透過追加預算的方式來補這個特別的預算。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我想請問你，當時納入堰塞湖處置的相關經費，那時候是沒有發生災情的前提之下編這600億嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有預備金。"],["羅委員智強：那時候是在沒有災情的情況之下編這600億，沒錯吧？對不對？那想請問你，目前你覺得重建經費需要多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個還要再詳細評估，不能夠……"],["羅委員智強：已經8天了耶！23號到現在8天了！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為很多的房屋現在還沒有清完……"],["羅委員智強：需要多少時間可以評估出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：還有很多的農損現在還沒有完全地能夠查報上來。"],["羅委員智強：院長，那你告訴我，你需要多少時間可以評估出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：多少時間？我想我們在中秋節之前先讓大家回復基本的生活。"],["羅委員智強：你到現在也沒辦法回答這個問題。院長，我來告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：中秋節之後1個月，我們會把它做一個總整理。"],["羅委員智強：1個月啊？你知道八八風災重建條例，在災害發生多久就已經制定了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這段期間已經有經費可以用了。"],["羅委員智強：我就問你事實問題，在災害發生後多久制定八八風災重建條例？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我要再查。"],["羅委員智強：20天。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在已經有預算可以用了，不是現在沒有……"],["羅委員智強：我在這邊請求你，把精確地需要預算多少你估出來，你也沒做到啊！你連日期都不告訴我！"],["卓院長榮泰：真的現在沒有辦法估算。"],["羅委員智強：甚至我跟你講，丹娜絲颱風的特別條例最先提的還是國民黨黨團，我們提了以後，民進黨黨團才在院長主持的協商當場表示你們贊同，那時候已經晚了1個月，你知道嗎？我們沒提，我也不知道你們到底要不要提啊！所以我回頭講，今天如果你真的反對要另外做重建條例，你起碼告訴我今天你要多少預算？面對如此重大的天災。","第二個，我也跟院長說，兩個颱風的性質不相同，它面對到所需要重建的範圍跟內容的項目也不相同啊！所以也不要那麼快就立刻打掉說今天不用一個專門性、專案性的特別條例。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您誤會了，我的意思是說我們現在用這種方式是最快的，馬上就到災區……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，雙軌可以並進嘛！你如果說丹娜絲……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這樣可以……"],["羅委員智強：院長，你聽我講，我今天真的是理性跟你討論這個事情，我心中完全都是花蓮，如果你的方案好也很好。丹娜絲颱風的特別條例有編600億預算，這600億預算是在堰塞湖沒有潰堤溢流的時候編的預算，它絕對是不夠的嘛！因為沒有設想今天的狀況，你怎麼跟我講預想是夠的呢？這個基本前提應該沒錯吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：它一定會有一些超出當初的想像。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！謝謝你嘛！一定超出來嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在至少有……"],["羅委員智強：那就來了！你可以看到這兩個災害的屬性並不相同，丹娜絲最主要的其實是風災跟降雨，但是今天花蓮光復鄉最最重要的災情源頭是堰塞湖潰堤！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是完全反對委員所提的這個方式，我是說現在這個時間點，我們全力把它恢復基本生活正常……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我跟你……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以朝這個方面來想，什麼方式可以最快讓災民得到照顧，我們就往這個方向來……"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝！院長，我跟你講，這一點我沒有反駁你，你知道為什麼嗎？可以齊頭並進嘛！假設你跟我講600億裡面你還有20億的餘裕，也就是原來的規模大概580億就做得到，還剩下20億可以先來做今天花蓮這個部分，我OK，我覺得非常好，但這絕對不夠，你一定相信嘛！絕對不夠的時候，你要跟我講追加預算，這也是一條路，我不否認啊！但是為什麼你今天不針對這個災害？而且我跟你講，它是有一個指標意義的喔！你知道為什麼今天國民黨立法院黨團要提這個重建條例？因為這個災害有一個特殊性，它跟過去的災害不一樣，就是堰塞湖潰堤！針對堰塞湖潰堤，如果今天有一個重建條例，我們就可以好好地在重建條例裡面去檢視怎麼面對堰塞湖這個危機，它其實是有向未來警示的重要意義，跟一般的颱風災害重建條例是不相同的！對於我這一點建設性的建議，希望院長至少不要馬上否定嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有否定，我是說……"],["羅委員智強：可以帶回去研究吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我最先想的是說，我們用什麼最快的方式讓災民得到照顧……"],["羅委員智強：你覺得我講的沒有道理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對於堰塞湖災害造成這樣大的一個情況，我們可以努力來……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我真的是拜託你啦！不要拘泥在這件事情上！"],["卓院長榮泰：要不要讓主委談一下堰塞湖的事情？因為他們有做過很多研究。"],["羅委員智強：可以啊，請！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，目前是在搶災搶險，所以居民的維生系統，包括家裡的水、電、馬桶都沒有，而且這種狀況高達兩、三千戶，目前緊急在做這個，所以……"],["羅委員智強：那我就問嘛！還是請教這個問題，剛剛院長沒答出來。請問這個重建大概要花多少錢？"],["陳主任委員金德：現在正在搶災搶險，所以重建的部分還沒有辦法評估出來。"],["羅委員智強：你看嘛！我跟你講，院長，我真的要這樣講，今天如果你願意採取我剛剛講的方式，這兩個方式不衝突嘛！但是你不要一開始先預定了，讓大家覺得，今天我們所有人關心的花蓮在你的心目當中好像「無要無緊」，我的感覺是這樣耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，委員這樣絕對是誤會。"],["羅委員智強：我知道你覺得你不是這樣，可是你今天回答我的過程，我就覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們用最快的……"],["羅委員智強：我就覺得你把自己畫得圈圈這麼狹獈、這麼限縮！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們馬上可以做的事情就先做了！那我們……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我拜託！我跟你拜託最後一次，你不做也沒關係，我們到立法院院長協商的時候再慢慢討論。你不要馬上就說不要啦！堰塞湖的災情和一般風災的災情就是不相同，你那600億的規模就是沒有涵蓋這個災害，有一個專門性的重建條例真的沒有什麼今天立刻、一定跟我說不行就是不行的道理，沒有這一回事啦！","最後我還想再請教院長，我們看到這次花蓮的災害，當然還是非常感謝包括中央和地方都有出動，可是現在從很多東西可以看到中央和地方之間有非常多矛盾。你知道八八風災的時候，當時的內政部長廖了以直接衝到災區坐鎮兩個禮拜嗎？你知道我們的劉兆玄院長也直接進駐八軍團，在那邊督導救災嗎？我沒有要你做到那個程度，我只是要直接問你一件事，幫花蓮請命，你去兩次，很辛苦，也謝謝你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：應該的、應該的。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問，中央官員不管是院長、副院長、部長還是次長，有什麼層級願意常駐花蓮，去做統合協調的工作？因為救災是很複雜的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過賴建信次長已經從開始到現在，還有我們環境部的沈次長、原民會的谷縱副主委，和國防部的賴少將……"],["羅委員智強：我給院長一個建議……"],["卓院長榮泰：今天我又請季連成政委去，又請李孟諺顧問去，希望賴建信次長能夠回來說明現在的狀況。我們做這種輪流的……"],["羅委員智強：非常好！我跟院長建議，讓中央、地方可以通暢要有一個常駐性的主責官員在那個地方。真的！這是按照我們過去八八風災的經驗……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員討論一下……"],["羅委員智強：我今天在這裡也不想去講是哪邊有責任的問題。有關責任，我說了，究責後面時間多的是，究責不是為了今天是要打擊哪一個政黨、殺傷哪一個政黨，不是！究責是為了要為未來去預防再次發生、去檢驗環節，沒錯吧？萬事莫如救災急，我沒有打算在這個地方跟你談究責問題，我只是衷心的勸告，按照過去我們遇到災害的作法，為花蓮人請命，你要有一個專責常設性的官員，至少次長級以上，要常駐在那個地方，幫忙解決所有災害的重建協調。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員討論，過去歷次這種重大災害，讓我們的災防法一直精進，我們現在一定先強化中央應變中心，到地方在災害發生一開始，我們就設前進協調所，跟地方政府一起合作，現在是災防法這樣的設計，如果這個設計不當，我們可以來檢討，但是目前災防法就是依照過去的經驗，一直精進演練到現在。"],["羅委員智強：我今天拜託你派一個專責官員下去，你都搬一堆法律出來，我直接告知你……"],["卓院長榮泰：賴建信次長就在那邊一個禮拜了啊！"],["羅委員智強：院長，我告訴你啦！我就是有參與救災經驗的人嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：賴次長已經在那邊一個禮拜了。"],["羅委員智強：我就舉個例子，結果你今天跟我講這些東西，我沒辦法聽下去，你要原諒我，沒辦法！就像賴清德總統一直在強調國軍不能進到人家家裡面去，就是一個莫名其妙的說法，我們我們國民黨執政就不是這個樣子嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們設置協調所……"],["羅委員智強：救災視同作戰！"],["卓院長榮泰：設置協調所之後，賴次長也在那邊，谷縱副主委也在那邊。"],["羅委員智強：你們很多東西，我都覺得我也搞不太懂，現在萬事莫如救災急，結果你搬一堆條條框框，這些條條框框存不存在都是個問號。我想請教院長，明年度國防預算，賴清德總統說要增加到3.32%對不對？2030年要增加到GDP的5%嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是我們的目標，我們朝這個目標前進，這是國家安全的需要。"],["羅委員智強：我們賴總統也說要提升國軍生活待遇，照顧國軍對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，我們明年度國防預算要編列總額高達9,495億，比今年要增加1,768億，史上最高，可是我不太懂，對於保家衛國的軍人，現在戰爭風險這麼高，我們立法院已經通過軍人待遇提升的條例，結果你們預算一毛不編，為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個已經跟外界說明過，再跟委員說明一次……"],["羅委員智強：你不用說明，我知道，你說要釋憲啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分因為有……"],["羅委員智強：你說要釋憲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：有兩百九十幾億。"],["羅委員智強：好，我再跟你講下一句話，警察人員人事條例也是提高退休警消的待遇跟保障，你們行政院也是不編預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算編列是行政院在編列，這個行政程序……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我接下來話就要說得重了。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我要跟委員報告，我們對義務役、志願役、戰鬥部隊……"],["羅委員智強：你要跟我講你過去有加薪……"],["卓院長榮泰：都有加給過……"],["羅委員智強：哪個政府對我們的軍公教沒有加薪？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只是不希望這種齊頭式的，而且一次這麼大幅度的，這對其他公務人員來講會形成一種不公平的狀態，我們願意循序漸進……"],["羅委員智強：我跟院長講，你這一段話只會讓我們的軍人寒心、讓警消寒心啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是啦，循序漸進，我們有在加，不是一成不變……"],["羅委員智強：我今天話要說得重的原因是什麼？我們國民黨一路捍衛軍人的尊嚴、捍衛警消的尊嚴，這尊嚴包括合理的待遇，今天兩岸兵凶戰危，難道為保家衛國的國軍增加待遇有這麼難嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年已經編了……"],["羅委員智強：你國防預算都要增加9,400億了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們編了59億，將近60億的預算在今年的追加預算裡面啊！"],["羅委員智強：你告訴我，按照軍人待遇條例跟警察人員人事條例所要編列的預算，有沒有編？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就認為應該等到大法官就釋憲做出決定之後……"],["羅委員智強：來、來、來，我就等你這句話！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果違憲，我們就不編；如果合憲，我們就編。"],["羅委員智強：院長，抱歉啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：而且可以追溯編。"],["羅委員智強：院長，你這個話只能去騙不懂法律的人啦，大法官釋憲請問做出緊急處分了沒有？有沒有做出緊急處分，目前為止？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有聲請暫時處分。"],["羅委員智強：你有聲請，他還沒做處分，今天如果大法官認為這個是違憲的、有違憲之虞，你要凍結法律效力，你要有緊急處分，在沒有緊急處分的情況之下，法律就是有效，真正大法官釋憲的流程應該是法律生效，你要執行，大法官做緊急處分凍結它就可以不執行，沒有凍結，那麼就繼續執行，釋憲出來違憲之後不執行。我知道你們民進黨現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：能不能努力讓大法官開得成會？"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，依據憲法訴訟法今天大法官成為什麼樣，這是另外一個憲政問題，我跟你講的是現在憲法的基本邏輯道理，可是我也要跟你講，今天在這裡我非常遺憾，我遺憾的是什麼？過去一路以來，羅智強就是挺軍人、挺警消、挺我們的公教，因此我們也準備推出停砍不合理的年金政策，院長，你支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府怎麼樣跟國軍並肩站在一起，部長最了解，可以請部長來說明。"],["羅委員智強：我要告訴院長，因為時間也不多，我很快的做個結論，臺灣今天有這個奇蹟，十大建設建設了台積電，然後到今天有了這樣的榮光，軍公教是最大的一個支柱，你不否認吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：不否認。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！但是民進黨上來之後，你去想想看，對軍人，今天條例通過你不編預算；對警消，條例通過你也不編預算；對於公教……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年追加了……"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛講的，你就是不編預算，你就等釋憲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：今年就追加了59.5億啊！"],["羅委員智強：對於公教……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年在志願役部分，就增加了59.5億。"],["羅委員智強：今天我們只是要求停砍年金，不是回到2017年前的年金制度，你也一樣不願意給軍公教最起碼的保障和尊嚴，我在這邊要跟院長直接說，今天我們國民黨立法院黨團確實有在討論要怎麼面對總預算，我們希望由院長來召開朝野協商，希望行政院能夠在協商的時候正面回應「依法行政」這四個字，如果做不到，羅智強在這邊直接說，下禮拜二我就提復議了！大家不需要到這種程度嘛！今天我們為了什麼？就是為了捍衛軍人、公教跟警消的尊嚴，拜託你們把他們放在心上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也一樣捍衛軍人、警消的尊嚴跟他的基本福利，我們也逐年在提高，今年也增加了59.5億，我們逐年來達到，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後，請張啓楷委員質詢，現在休息。","休息（15時52分）","繼續開會（16時2分）"],["主席：報告院會，我們繼續開會。","接下來請本日政黨質詢最後一位張啓楷委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2025-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1147801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─進行質詢─","agenda_id":"1147801_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}