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我們會很快的做對嘛 這個都是現在可以做的嘛對不對 部長在點頭對 趕快做 部長我強調一下 是老蔣 為什麼延誤到現在在討論這個議題"},{"start":229.921,"end":235.996,"text":"你大概是第一個發錢也是唯一一個發錢給人家還被人家罵的這個院長"},{"start":237.332,"end":266.751,"text":"就是一開始你提什麼違憲 後來又有排戶弄到後來就加了一個什麼不要領來一個選項對不對你看連周一坤都罵 那討論而已那個沒有加 那個只是研議而已沒有加在這個整個 現在五個選項當中沒有加 當初民間團體來要求的是我們是去做研議研議的結果認為最自然的保障還要必須周延 所以並沒有加那個完全沒有延誤 我跟委員報告這個預算案我們是9月11號就送到大院了"},{"start":267.091,"end":275.001,"text":"今天是12月 時間是10月3號我們並沒有延誤太多我9月11號所以必須要清楚我們是哪有延誤沒有那個選項委員 委員"},{"start":285.353,"end":290.298,"text":"委員我沒有那個選項喔沒有那個選項喔你不要說我沒有那個選項喔我跟委員報告9月11號9月11號我們預算案就送來啦"},{"start":301.287,"end":318.174,"text":"為什麼9月11號要到今天10月3號呢我現在跟你說 之前你一開始講到微信後來說到排骨 後來又說到這個選項 那你後來都改了啦都改了就好 可是時間上你完全不了解狀況 我們沒有改我剛剛講的這三個不都是你"},{"start":319.294,"end":345.851,"text":"欸 你翻車 翻了三次我把這個聲像跟你講 叫你檢討你現在又說我不瞭解不要硬拗拗我在提醒你 更重要的不要再出現橫生直結了10月底趕快拋棒我9月11號就送來了 到今天已經快一個月了委員 我們前日作業都在進行當中而且積極的在辦事你今天測試了嘛 對不對對測試 改了ATM那個ATM這一次還增加了加速增加1000多家的ATM機台 對"},{"start":346.98,"end":352.583,"text":"好 OK接下來我們要談專業的請經濟部長 經濟部長一起上來麻煩請經濟部長備詢時間停一下時間暫停財政部長要在我們要談專業的財政部長跟經濟部長一起上來麻煩再請財政部長備詢委員好"},{"start":368.189,"end":386.955,"text":"這一天啊從美國商務部長講到這個台美晶片五五分之後包括昨天鄭麗菁副院長開了記者會講台灣製造很多人在擔心的是我們的台積電會不會真的五五分變半瓶三了今天我的問題都非常直接所以要問專業的昨天記者會"},{"start":391.125,"end":419.924,"text":"鄭麗君提到說這是一個台灣模式他真正的台灣模式包裝的是什麼就是對美要擴大投資嘛對不對所以真正的關鍵點在什麼地方你像日本南韓他們去擴大投資日本多了投資5500億嘛南韓多少3500億對不對所以他們得到了什麼他們把本來關稅是20%降到了15%所以現在有兩個很大的問題了台灣製造真正的關鍵是什麼是兩個第一個"},{"start":422.26,"end":437.376,"text":"請問到底台灣製造我們要投資美國擴大投資多少錢就是你這個產業聚落到底要從台灣搬多少錢去這是第一個題目第二個也很重要有因為這樣子我們的關稅會降下來嗎這個題目院長還是"},{"start":442.889,"end":469.434,"text":"你剛才提到會不會有五五分剛才秀出來政府院長已經講說我們不會同意政府院長也講所謂的五五分我們不會同意昨天政府院長已經有這樣的回答了五五分不會同意要怎麼做等一下我會問你我現在問你的是你們現在的台灣模式就是對美擴大投資那現在到底要投資多少錢"},{"start":471.546,"end":498.966,"text":"所有的投資基本上都是企業界他們在做規劃企業支持去嘛 對不對我們要做信用保證嘛 對不對我們從旁協助嘛金融上的支持是一部分其他的還有行政上的協助其他的協助現在日本跟南海有提到某部分是民間去啦我現在問你到底我們要擴大投資不管是政府或民間到底要多少錢去我們產業的節奏還是立足台灣佈局全球立足台灣還是要先嘛"},{"start":500.527,"end":521.204,"text":"像日本就投資了5500億嘛他本來兩邊在談的時候日本說要投資4000億嘛對不對川普把他大筆一揮說你要提高5500億本來利潤是平分他說我們美國要再90%嘛我現在就問你人家都那麼具體你現在提出台灣模式人家有日本模式 南韓模式嘛你的投資金額是多少啦"},{"start":521.824,"end":544.603,"text":"我們跟他不一樣 他是拿一筆錢出來但是他們還有爭議我們不是 我們是協助廠商對外全球佈局所以他主動權是在廠商所以廠商有需求我們才會提出支持他們不一樣所以你有精算過就像日本跟南韓這樣我們到底有多少的企業或者是政府要進去的錢是多少"},{"start":545.203,"end":558.174,"text":"你總要有一個金額啊現在我們說台灣台灣現在大概是全世界現在在談高關稅談判談到目前沒有那個數目是出現的對不對我剛講的很具體嘛日本有 美國有 印度有歐盟有 歐盟4500億嘛"},{"start":560.302,"end":587.72,"text":"那你現在提出台灣模式你真正的現在很多專家寫者在問這個問題啊你到底要去擴這個就是擴大投資對不對到底要投資多少錢你們沒有精算過嗎你們昨天已經提出來了去跟美國談過了應該知道要投資多少錢吧因為我們有盤點過廠商的意願但是這廠商的意願可能要有所以盤點過你要跟美國談的時候你提出來是我們可能擴大投資多少錢因為這個牽扯到你投資多少錢你能夠才能夠把你的關稅降下來不是嗎"},{"start":588.902,"end":609.836,"text":"你到現在沒有精算過這個啊你當初去跟美國談怎麼談的沒有嗎 還是你不用跟我講不用跟你講嗎我們當然有反應現在廠商他的意願上的表達是如何這個是有表達給美方部長 所以搞不清楚 你們沒有精算過這個投資金額是多大扣到投資是多大嗎"},{"start":610.777,"end":636.146,"text":"你是不願意講還是沒有 正常狀況下不應該沒有嘛很多專家寫者都在質疑說全世界金額都出現了台灣到現在沒有 欸 昨天有一個台灣模式講出來了你是要趕快欺騙全台灣的民眾還是你不願意講還是沒有精算你跟美國談的時候你給他數目是多少啦我沒有參與談判 所以實際上談判的過程我並不是非常了解那這樣好不好 部長跟你講 你們回去要跟"},{"start":637.9,"end":657.905,"text":"這個數目要早一點跟民眾講第二個更重要了昨天副院長有提到有進展希望把關稅可以降下來我們現在有期待因為我們提出了台灣模式了過幾天你們可能會跟大家很明確的講到底因為這樣努力我們的關稅可以降到多少有降的趨勢出來嗎"},{"start":660.678,"end":680.396,"text":"跟委員報告國際談判的習慣就是在到最後的總結結論出來之前我們不宜說出現在雙方談判的條件你剛所說的對等關稅什麼是合理的對等關稅以及雙方在投資在採購上面有沒有做過一些什麼承諾我只能跟你講"},{"start":681.196,"end":704.896,"text":"對等關稅我們在爭取合理的對等關稅但是對於投資跟採購目前我們有提出一些想法但是還沒有達到最後承諾的這個階段所以我們不便在這裡說而且投資的部分是廠商去投資政府沒有立場說要廠商投多少後來政府你一定要跟南南跟日本跟印度一樣你一個數目字然後現在最重要的 院長"},{"start":705.777,"end":719.367,"text":"我們的效率沒有那麼差啦也沒有那麼樣的一個黑箱啦全世界你看美國那個日本跟南海現在不繼續在談嗎南海現在美國川普突然講喔你這3500億不是慢慢來喔他叫他要"},{"start":720.233,"end":743.504,"text":"要現金白銀啊他說你現在馬上來啊結果現在不就出來講了我外匯存底才4100億你叫我馬上拿3500出來我就重演97年的金融風暴啊人家都是透明的嘛就在談的過程裡面有些東西是要具體的我現在跟你講的就是說該跟人民講的第一個你效率不能這麼差談這麼久沒談下來第二個你該跟人民講的剛我光是我剛講的第一個"},{"start":744.184,"end":761.847,"text":"要投資金的事 第二個也很重要我問副總 這個很重要很多人很關心委員你這個就清楚了關於外媒的報導日本韓國跟美國談好的過程結論出來之後他們現在都有一點點不同的意志表達出來所以我是覺得"},{"start":762.988,"end":776.94,"text":"談得快不如談得好我們好好的談談到最有利我國的產業國家的利益最有利我國的人民這個部分我們好好的談我們拖太久了啦現在已經出現多少無薪假"},{"start":778.479,"end":801.941,"text":"有些企業現在都在上四天班上 變成休三了有些是倒閉了那個趨勢現在進行是 我們是20加N你如果說你現在是像日本跟南韓已經降到15%我們現在比別人高 結果還是談不下來人民黨現在更重要 就是你現在部長要回答這個事情現在台灣模式到底不是就金額的問題了"},{"start":803.376,"end":817.467,"text":"有多少的企業要過去有多少的工作機會多少的人才會流到美國去造成的產力外移 你有計算過嗎你在找企業講對不對有沒有算過我們會減少多少的工作機會就業機會"},{"start":819.412,"end":846.952,"text":"包委員我剛才還是提到立足台灣佈局全球立足台灣是根本所以沒有所謂的外移這是力量的延伸他沒有因為說大家寫者最近這一個月特別從昨天開始有多少人你們看看報導好不好沒有因為說你一個產業美國一個產業園區台灣怎麼當然是資金的資金會過去人才會過去嘛所以說你要趕快精算出來嘛你本來就應該有來更重要來我們看一下來"},{"start":848.609,"end":876.48,"text":"很多專家寫者昨天去做了一個對比看鄭義新開了記者會完之後大家看看兩邊的這個你們一直講說我們沒有討論也不會答應美國的商務部長說一定要五五分我們提出了四個重點你有沒有發現四個重點不能說很像只能說一模一樣你的右邊的這四個要點"},{"start":878.267,"end":902.389,"text":"幾乎都是達成你本來不要的盧特尼克美國商業部長要的一共啥希望在川普結束任期前將他們今天的支持力要提升到40%投資金額要超過5000億並且要涵蓋從設計到封裝的完整供應鏈下面更重要一共啥唯有把整條供應鏈帶回去美國"},{"start":903.47,"end":929.564,"text":"才能夠達成讓台灣參與喔而且你要同意參與供應鏈這就是川普政府 川普的魔力川普的魔力讓你們擇福了嗎你看你右邊的四點 來 你看這樣我指的是企業要去喔 你們去幫他整合完第二個 你還做金融的信保機制去支持他的企業投資 所以我剛問你嘛你到底要去信保多少錢要去多少錢 這是不是他講的這個五千億嗎"},{"start":931.959,"end":949.061,"text":"日本5500億 南韓3500億我們這個信保到底要承諾多少錢這筆錢要不要的回來第三個從科學研究的經驗打造美國的巨肉這不都是幫他完成嗎所以我明確的要求不要只有嘴巴講說我不討論也不答應"},{"start":972.333,"end":974.234,"text":"好 謝謝張祺凱委員資訊謝謝卓院長 相關部委首長貝許昀 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時43分）謝謝韓院長。請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長早安。今天大家最關心的就是普發現金1萬元，你剛才也特別強調要儘快，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：事實上國民黨跟民眾黨的提案是希望能在10月底開始發放，這在原來通過的三讀條文是有的，可是一波三折，後來你又提了修正案。今天能不能從你嘴巴很清楚地跟全民講，可以在10月底開始發放？第一個，今天付委之後，下個禮拜議程已經排好了，即財政跟經濟聯席會在下禮拜三、四召開，最晚禮拜四就會送回院會。照這個時程，應該在10月14日，最晚10月17日可以在立法院完成三讀。可是現在有一個關卡可能會卡住，因為你新的條文裡面說要特別預算公告完一個月內開始發放，對不對？這裡面有彈性了，所以你今天能不能說清楚？因為立法院已經快馬加鞭了，委員會快，下個禮拜的院會應該也會很快。所以你今天能不能承諾，如果一切順利，最晚、最晚在10月底讓普發現金1萬塊入帳，讓大家都可以領得到？"],["卓院長榮泰：最重要的原則是：立法院程序快，行政院發放得就會快，所以大家都必須快跟快。但是一切也要讓整個準備作業能夠翔實完整，因為這個要發放2,350萬人以上的發放作業是相當大的，雖然我們有112年那個6,000元的發放平臺當作基礎，我們現在正在把它進行優化，而且今年跟過去比較不一樣的是我們要防範很多的詐騙行為，你看，前一段時間好多詐騙已經發生了……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，時間……"],["卓院長榮泰：一旦我們通過之後，那個可能會更多，所以我們要針對詐騙的部分，要讓它做到資安更安全的狀態。"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對。立法院的流程剛剛我已經跟大家報告了，已經快馬加鞭，最晚在10月17號應該可以三讀通過，接下來反而是你這邊了，你剛剛講這整個作業，你現在應該開始要測試了啊，現在ATM櫃員機的內容是不是有變更？當初蘇貞昌發6,000元的時候，那一套系統現在是可以繼續用的嘛，對不對？可是領6,000元跟1萬元，你完成變更了沒有？第二個，你開始測試了沒有？這個現在要趕快做，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這已經在準備、在做了。"],["張委員啓楷：要趕快做，這個要先做。","第二個是我剛剛講的，你的條文裡面把我們10月底的這個期限修掉了，現在你就要儘快，好不好？往10月底可以做的方向，你自己要趕快做喔，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：審查的程序……"],["張委員啓楷：你不要弄到後來立法院過了，結果因為你的流程延誤了，搞到11月才發放，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：大院審查的程序快，我們就會加快，但是如果是10月17號，到月底只有13天，中間還有連假，我們希望能夠更充分的準備……"],["張委員啓楷：那你現在就趕快做啊！包括ATM櫃員機，還有整個測試……"],["卓院長榮泰：會的、會的，委員不用急，我們會很快的做、很快的做。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！這個都是現在可以做的嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這個請部長來說明一下現在的程序。"],["張委員啓楷：部長在點頭，對，趕快做。部長，我強調一下，老實講為什麼延誤到現在才討論這個議題？院長啊，你大概是第一個也是唯一一個發錢給人家還被人家罵的院長，就是一開始你提什麼違憲，後來又有排富，弄到後來去加了一個什麼不要領的選項，對不對？你看連周玉蔻都罵……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，在討論而已。"],["張委員啓楷：周玉蔻罵什麼？罵「蠢到無極限」……"],["卓院長榮泰：那個沒有加，那個只是研議而已，並沒有加在現在整個五個選項當中，沒有加。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，我說一波三折……"],["卓院長榮泰：當初民間團體來要求的時候，我們是去做研議，研議的結果認為對資安的保障還要必須更周延，所以並沒有加，那個完全沒有延誤。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，這個預算案我們是9月11號就送到大院了，今天是10月3號啊，我們並沒有延誤太多，我9月11號……"],["張委員啓楷：對，你送過來後我們都快馬加鞭在做，我現在是提醒你，之前……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以必須要清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：之前就是因為你在那邊研議什麼不要領的選項……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪有研議？"],["張委員啓楷：如果要設不要領的那個選項……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有那個選項。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼連吳思瑤委員都說你多此一舉……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員、委員，我們沒有那個選項喔！"],["張委員啓楷：連周玉蔻都說你是蠢到無下限！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有那個選項喔，你不要錯誤資訊。"],["張委員啓楷：如果不領，錢本來就會回到國庫嘛，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有那個選項喔！我跟委員報告，9月11號……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在送了沒有嘛？當初你說要研議嘛，對不對？所以你才被罵嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：9月11號預算案我們就送來了啊，為什麼9月11號要到今天10月3號呢？"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，我現在是跟你說之前，你一開始講到違憲，後來說要排富……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啦！"],["張委員啓楷：後來又說到要設這個選項，你後來都改了啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：都改了就好！要跟時間賽跑……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們沒有改。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有改，委員，你完全不了解狀況，我們沒有改。"],["張委員啓楷：我不了解狀況？我剛剛講的這三個不都是你……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：欸，你翻車翻了三次，我把這個真相跟你講，叫你檢討，你現在又說我不了解，不要硬拗，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我9月11號就送來了，我的特別預算……"],["張委員啓楷：我再提醒你更重要的，不要再橫生枝節了，10月底趕快發放。"],["卓院長榮泰：我9月11號就送來了，到今天已經快一個月了！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我們前置作業都在進行當中，而且積極的在辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：已經測試了嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，測試了。"],["張委員啓楷：還改了ATM那個……"],["莊部長翠雲：ATM這一次還增加了家數，增加一千多家的ATM機臺，會積極辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。接下來我們要談專業的，請經濟部長一起上來。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部長備詢。"],["張委員啓楷：時間停一下。"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["張委員啓楷：財政部長要在，我們要談專業的，財政部長跟經濟部長一起上來。"],["主席：麻煩再請財政部長備詢。"],["龔部長明鑫：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：這幾天，從美國商務部長講到臺美晶片五五分之後，包括昨天鄭麗君副院長開了記者會講臺灣製造，很多人在擔心的是我們的台積電會不會真的五五分變半屏山了。今天我的問題都非常直接，所以要問專業的人！","昨天記者會鄭麗君提到這個是一個臺灣模式，真正的臺灣模式包裝的是什麼？就是對美要擴大投資嘛，對不對？所以真正的關鍵點在什麼地方？像日本、南韓他們去擴大投資，日本多投資5,500億、南韓多3,500億，對不對？所以他們得到了什麼？他們把本來的關稅從20%降到了15%，所以現在有兩個很大的問題了，臺灣製造真正的關鍵是什麼？有兩個，第一個，請問到底臺灣製造，我們要投資美國、擴大投資多少錢？就是你這個產業聚落到底要從臺灣搬多少錢去？這是第一個題目。第二個也很重要，因為這樣子我們的關稅會降下來嗎？這個題目，院長還是部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，您剛才提到的就是會不會有五五分，剛才您也有秀出來鄭副院長已經講說我們不會同意這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，請大聲一點，聽不清楚。"],["龔部長明鑫：就是鄭副院長也有講，就是這個所謂的五五分我們不會同意嘛，這個昨天鄭副院長已經有這樣的回答了。"],["張委員啓楷：五五分不會同意要怎麼做到，等一下我會問你，我現在問你的是，你們現在的臺灣模式就是對美擴大投資嘛，對不對？現在到底要投資多少錢？"],["龔部長明鑫：所有的投資基本上都是企業界他們在做規劃……"],["張委員啓楷：企業自主去嘛，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：然後我們從旁協助。"],["張委員啓楷：然後我們要做信用保證嘛，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們從旁協助嘛，金融上的支持是一部分，其他還有行政上的協助及其他的協助，因為我們……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，現在日本跟南韓也提到某部分是民間去啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們產業的……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在問你，到底我們的這個擴大投資，不管是政府或民間，到底要多少錢去？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們產業的節奏還是立足臺灣布局全球，立足臺灣還是要先嘛……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦！多少？很具體的。像日本就投資了5,500億嘛……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們跟它不一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：本來兩邊在談的時候，日本說要投資4,000億嘛，對不對？川普大筆一揮說要提高到5,500億啊，本來利潤是平分，他說美國要占90%嘛，我現在就問你，人家都那麼具體，你現在提出的臺灣模式，人家有日本模式、南韓模式嘛，你的投資金額是多少啦？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們跟它不一樣，它是拿一筆錢出來，但是他們還有爭議，我們不是，我們是協助廠商對外全球布局，所以主動權是在廠商，廠商有需求，我們才會提出支持，但他們不一樣，他們好像是承諾拿一筆錢出來……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你有精算過嗎？就像日本跟南韓這樣，我們到底有多少的企業，或者是政府要進去的錢是多少？你總要有一個金額啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：的確，我們有……"],["張委員啓楷：我們說臺灣，臺灣現在大概是全世界談高關稅談到目前沒有那個數目字出現的，對不對？我剛剛講得很具體嘛，日本有、美國有、印度有、歐盟有，對不對？歐盟是4,500億嘛，那你現在提出臺灣模式，你真正的……現在很多專家學者都在問這個問題啊，這個就是擴大投資，對不對？那麼到底要投資多少錢？你們沒有精算過嗎？你們昨天已經提出來了，也去跟美國談過了，應該知道要投資多少錢吧？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，我們有盤點過廠商的意願，但是廠商的意願可能還要由廠商來對外說明。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！所以盤點過，你要跟美國談的時候，你提出來的是我們可能擴大投資多少錢，因為這個牽扯到你投資多少錢才能夠把你的關稅降下來，不是嗎？你到現在沒有精算過這個啊？你當初去跟美國談是怎麼談的？沒有嗎？還是你不願意跟我講，不願意跟人民講嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們當然有反映，我們當然有反映現在廠商的意願上表達是如何，這個是有表達給美方，但是實際上說實在的……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，所以到目前為止，你們沒有精算過這個投資金額是多大，是嗎？擴大投資是多大？你是不願意講還是沒有？正常狀況下不應該沒有嘛，很多專家學者都在質疑說全世界金額都出現了，臺灣到現在沒有，昨天有一個臺灣模式講出來了，你是要欺騙全臺灣的民眾還是你不願意講？還是沒有精算？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我剛才提到過……"],["張委員啓楷：你跟美國談的時候，你給它的數目字是多少啦？"],["龔部長明鑫：我沒有參與談判，所以實際上談判的過程我並不是非常了解。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣好不好，部長跟院長，你們回去要跟……這個數目字要早一點跟民眾講啦，好不好？","第二個更重要，昨天副院長有提到嘛，有進展，希望可以把這個關稅降下來，對不對？我們現在有期待，因為我們提出臺灣模式了嘛，金額的部分，過幾天你們可能會跟大家很明確的講……"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對……"],["張委員啓楷：到底因為這樣的努力，我們的關稅可以降到多少，有這樣的趨勢出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國際談判的習性、習慣，就是在未到最後的總結結論出來之前，我們不宜說出現在雙方談判的條件。您剛剛所說的對等關稅，什麼是合理的對等關稅，以及雙方在投資、在採購上面有沒有做過一些什麼承諾，我只能跟你講，對等關稅，我們在爭取合理的對等關稅，但是對於投資跟採購，目前我們有提出一些想法，但是還沒有達到最後承諾的這個階段，所以我們不便在這裡說，而且投資的部分是廠商去投資，政府沒有立場要廠商投多少……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，不管是整合或怎樣，政府一定要跟南韓、跟日本、跟印度一樣，要有一個數目字啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後現在更重要的，院長，我們的效率沒有那麼差啦，也沒有那樣的黑箱啦！全世界，你看美國跟日本、南韓現在不是繼續在談嗎？以南韓來說，現在美國川普突然講這3,500億不是慢慢來，他叫南韓要拿出現金白銀啊，他說現在馬上要拿來，結果南韓現在不就出來講了，我外匯存底才4,100億，你叫我馬上拿3,500億出來，我就重演97年的金融風暴啊！人家都是透明的嘛！就是在談的過程裡面，有些東西是要具體的。我現在跟你講的就是該跟人民講的，第一個，你效率不能這麼差，談這麼久沒談下來。第二個，你該跟人民講的，如我剛剛講的，第一個，要投資的金額是多少？第二個也很重要，我問部長一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先問你，這個很重要，很多人很關心，這種臺灣模式……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這個你就清楚了，關於外媒的報導，日本、韓國跟美國談好的過程結論出來之後，他們現在都有一點點不同的意志表達出來，所以我覺得談得快不如談得好。我們好好地談，談到最有利於我國的產業、國家的利益，最有利於我國的人民，這個部分我們好好地談，不一定要比快……"],["張委員啓楷：我們拖太久了啦！現在已經出現多少無薪假？有些企業現在一週都變成上四天班休三了呢！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經到了……跟委員報告，已經到了最後關鍵的時候了。"],["張委員啓楷：有些是倒閉了呢！川普是現在進行式，我們是20加N，如果你現在是像日本跟南韓已經降到15%，我們現在比別人高，結果還是談不下來……"],["龔部長明鑫：所以……"],["張委員啓楷：現在更重要的，對，就是現在部長你要回答這個事情……"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以我們提出了支援產業政策……"],["張委員啓楷：現在臺灣模式到底……不是只有金額的問題了，到底有多少企業要過去？有多少的工作機會、多少的人才會流到美國去，造成的產業外移，你有精算過嗎？你一直在找企業講對不對？有沒有算過我們會減少多少的工作機會、就業機會？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我剛才就提到「立足臺灣、布局全球」，立足臺灣是根本，所以沒有所謂的外移，這是力量的延伸，並沒有因為說……"],["張委員啓楷：專家學者最近這一個月，特別從昨天開始有多少人，你們看看報導，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，沒有因為說我們對外投資所以我們自己減少投資，沒有的。"],["張委員啓楷：你一個產業，臺灣要到美國設一個產業園區，當然是資金會過去，人才會過去嘛，所以說你要趕快精算出來嘛，你本來就應該有。","來，還有更重要的，我們看一下，很多專家學者昨天去做了一個對比，看完鄭麗君開的記者會之後。大家看看這個圖的兩邊，你們一直講說我們沒有討論，也不會答應；美國的商務部長說，一定要五五分。我們提出了四個重點，你沒有發現四個重點，不能說很像耶，只能說一模一樣耶。右邊你提出的這四個要點，幾乎都是達成你本來說不要的而美國商務部長盧特尼克要的。他說什麼？希望在川普結束任期前，將他們晶片的自製率要提升到40%，投資金額要超過5,000億，並且要涵蓋從設計到封裝的完整供應鏈。下面這個更重要，他說什麼？唯有把整條供應鏈帶回去美國才能夠達成讓臺灣參與，而且你要同意參與供應鏈，這就是川普政府、川普的魔力，川普的魔力讓你們折服了嗎？你看你右邊的四點，來，你看看，不只是企業要去，你們去幫他整合完。第二個，你還要透過金融信保機制去支持企業的投資。所以我剛剛問你，你到底要去信保多少錢？要去多少錢，這個是不是他講的這個5,000億嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我還是……"],["張委員啓楷：日本5,500億，南韓3,500億，我們的信保到底要承諾多少錢？這筆錢要不要得回來？第三個，從科學園區的經驗打造美國的聚落，這不都是幫他完成嗎？所以我明確的要求，不要只有嘴巴講說我不討論也不答應，你的實際作為是不是就是把臺灣的護國神山搬到美國去？把我們的整個晶片產業鏈搬過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：要很明確的跟民眾解釋清楚，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！立足臺灣，立足臺灣是第一，立足臺灣第一，對，立足臺灣第一。"],["張委員啓楷：要真正做到根留臺灣，不要用嘴巴講，結果專家學者已經對比出來了，你是把我們的晶片產業鏈搬到美國去。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！台積電一定是立足臺灣。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！一起愛臺灣，讓護國神山根留臺灣。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們會做，我們不會用嘴巴講。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","卓院長，請喝水。好，謝謝。","報告院會，我們在議場二樓旁聽的是來自臺北市大安區的好朋友，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢，楊瓊瓔委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-10-03"],"gazette_id":"1147801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147801_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}