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院長你的看法"},{"start":189.361,"end":203.917,"text":"報告委員我們當然希望能夠透過年度預算來表現出整個政府施政的重點跟方向但委員剛剛有提到前瞻基礎建設的這個特別預算我想到今天為止很多的委員包括地方的民意代表地方的各級政府"},{"start":204.517,"end":232.447,"text":"都覺得前瞻基礎建設對地方有很大的注意很多的委員有爭取過只要預算編的合理執行的合理都應該是對於 但是你變成一個常態化啊對不對所以我們我剛剛我早上有說 年度預算應該要編他就列了很多的項目但是他如果 所謂前瞻跟這個對這邊的預算你應該是你要是說特別預算針對要是有災害發生我相信"},{"start":233.868,"end":254.581,"text":"不要符合預算法的特別預算但是你們現在就是有一點變成巧立名目而且很多的不應該編載這次的預算裡面巧立名目來包山包海的納進去所以說剛剛有很多的委員他們也是有提出這樣的看法跟委員報告以115年為例作業為止會是編列在廣播的部分是1990億"},{"start":262.242,"end":289.43,"text":"就這個部分它要優先維持裝備的妥善所以資源的配置上來看的話只能夠維持設置的堪用所以預算中心的報告我們有看但是要請委員能夠了解的就是說如果你以我們要整間彈藥庫庫值的設置來看的話這些彈藥庫民國90年以前完成現在都老舊了如果你以作業維持會近三年的比例來看的話每年大概只能夠便宜一億多"},{"start":290.27,"end":312.611,"text":"這個只能夠維持基本的庫儲設施的修繕但是沒有辦法來因應我們現在要籌購的大量的新式武器要入庫 然後彈藥要囤儲的需求所以我們一次性的在兩年內把它做一個大量的整建之後你不能編在今年的正常預算裡面嗎為什麼一定要編在這一次裡面讓人家感覺"},{"start":313.291,"end":334.927,"text":"就是有這種感覺啊如果我們把它編在這個今年年度預算裡面的話我們的裝備的頭上的這個部分就幾乎沒有辦法能夠維持到那所以我們庫儲的這個所以說你就巧立名目來把它納在這次裡面庫儲設施的這個部分我們快速的集中資源在短時間裡面在兩年我們就能夠把它強化這個存在已經很久的時間這個就能夠強化我們的戰備的一個力量"},{"start":338.77,"end":364.25,"text":"這個存在已經很久的時間為什麼一定要在這一次納進來你為什麼不能先前你像這個有變正常預算的時候你納進去對不對你不要講讓人家感覺就是包山包海所以說我們立法院預算中心啊才特別的針對這一點來質疑甚至於審計室審計部他們也有這樣的看法我認為說你們該改則改主委長你認為該不該改"},{"start":365.646,"end":378.683,"text":"我認為我們每一筆預算包括這次的強化韌性的特別條例跟特別預算都有它跟編制的根據剛剛部長也說過了它急迫性需要在短時間內把這些庫儲設備給它完成起來"},{"start":380.786,"end":401.088,"text":"如果是在年度預算他一定排擠到目前他現在國防預算裡面相關的設備訓練等等的預算跟委員報告我想任何的作戰要靠後勤假設我們籌貨大量的武器裝備到了我們事實上沒有足夠的後勤來支撐的話這個武器裝備的維持是很困難的"},{"start":401.568,"end":418.92,"text":"所以我們庫儲設施先要迅速的來整建那我們這一次提就是只是說在兩年的時間之內我們大量的來整建這些相關的庫儲的設施跟這些訓場讓我們的後備戰力一無一的訓練讓我們的這些新式彈藥的武器能夠有一個"},{"start":420.921,"end":437.353,"text":"囤儲的一個地點這個部分的話有它的一個急迫性存在那如果你一年一年編那這樣的話我們可能要搞個十幾年可是我們沒有辦法等待這樣子的一個慢慢的來做所以我們希望能夠快速的提升我們的能力我就再進一步請教 顧部長"},{"start":438.666,"end":456.367,"text":"那你像那個我們現在還有多少錢這個預算在美國武器沒有來已經那麼久了多少錢你告訴全國全國的民眾跟委員報告我想這一個所有武器還沒來"},{"start":457.392,"end":482.727,"text":"所有的現在相關的這些不管是我們一般的軍購的程序或者是用特別條例所一般的這樣子的一個軍購他確實是有一些武器是遲延的但我們現在都盡力的在跟美方協作你不要講現在我是要求說有多少錢還在美國武器沒有來時間已經拖拉那麼長了你告訴全國的民眾"},{"start":484.442,"end":508.414,"text":"這個一定要清清楚楚啊這個沒有什麼好隱瞞的啊對不對這個再把詳細資料跟委員做報告啦不是認為喔 牽扯到很多事情不要刻意去隱瞞啦不是隱瞞 這牽扯到雙方之間還有一些目前契約在存在的過程當中我們也期待趕快來實現錢給好久 武器別來對不對 大家信誓渡命來 那個"},{"start":509.975,"end":536.796,"text":"那個美國商務部說美國不能再過度來依賴台灣半導體必須推動這個美台的晶片產能那五五分案 五五分的這種方案成就美國版的一個戲盾美國已經把話講白美國對台積電的要求已經不只是投資美國的廠甚至要將一半以上的產能移往美國"},{"start":538.618,"end":565.514,"text":"台灣半導體整個產業鏈勢必要跟著台積電一起去美國過去幾個月許多政府官員包括民進黨人士一再駁斥台積電不會變成美積電本席也希望政府堅守立場不能同意如此離譜的條件讓企業跟流台灣避免台灣的半導體產業被美國給掏空"},{"start":567.004,"end":591.409,"text":"剛剛那個龔部長你講的我都聽過我也瞭解但是啊現在最嚴重就是他要求你把那些整個產業鏈移過去對不對那你要跟著去台灣就是掏空了啊不會啦 巴委員我剛才提到過就是說即便他1635億真的完成那個也要好幾年才完成他是六個廠"},{"start":592.768,"end":622.078,"text":"六個晶圓廠我們單單剛剛公布的中科就會有四個廠那個我剛剛都有聽過 部長最重要 把握當下所以我們量遠遠超過美國而且技術也是最先進 會在台灣不要美國 講一句話我們什麼都配合啦沒有這樣的事 這就是這樣的想法我們政府院長就明確的提這個不可能答應我是希望說該堅持要堅持啦"},{"start":626.772,"end":639.676,"text":"經濟部前部長郭志輝6月10日說他對台灣談判的結果有高度信心不至於談出比日本南韓更差的關稅結果到了8月 豬羊變色"},{"start":640.916,"end":654.864,"text":"除了原本的關稅外台灣還要再疊加20%的關稅美國總統川普9月簽下行政命令確定日本商品試用15%跟韓國不疊加對等關稅的特例"},{"start":662.199,"end":672.832,"text":"那我請問卓院長以經濟部對美國關稅談判目標是我為之已經取得以日本韓國同樣的這些關稅的條件我們有嗎"},{"start":673.995,"end":697.743,"text":"報告委員8月7號所暫時實施的台灣跟美國的對等關稅我們是在最惠國待遇上面再加上20%的關稅但是美方也談到將來只要談判最後協定達成的時候這都可以再發生任何的變化我們要爭取的就是把這個對等關稅再合理的往下降同時不要再疊加最惠國的待遇同時對232的"},{"start":699.943,"end":726.112,"text":"這種優惠以及我們整個供應鏈的合作方式我們盡量把它爭取到對我國最有利的這個方向來我希望那個左院長該堅持還是要堅持我們會很堅持國家利益產業利益你要是不堅持的話 國人都看在眼裡因為那些產業界 他們沒有辦法生存啦對不對 大家心知肚明對不對 你換了 美國換了川普總統難道我們那些原來的產業全部都要收掉嗎 對不對"},{"start":728.832,"end":737.16,"text":"該堅持還是要堅持如果對美關稅談判最終的結果比主要競爭對手關稅來得多等於是讓國內這些廠商的起跑點"},{"start":741.203,"end":745.186,"text":"我們現在是用你升級轉型或者是金融上的支持或者是你要拓銷多元市場那全部都有一些補助"},{"start":761.86,"end":788.442,"text":"有補助他們可以撐嗎那為什麼有補助他們很多要失業他們沒辦法繼續生存我們現在很多的收的案件已經超過一千件不是件的問題啦當下就是那些人就失業啦沒有辦法生存啊老闆根本沒辦法營運啊那個無薪不是叫無薪假這個減班休息是有增加一點但是失業是沒有明顯增加"},{"start":791.07,"end":791.432,"text":"譬如說機械設備"},{"start":795.391,"end":816.395,"text":"製造業受到美國關稅影響由產業工會同業工會提出一些影響的數據只要每賣多少產品我們就補助他一些這個關稅的一些差額那這個根據出口時機來這個核銷補助減少美國關稅負面的因素以維護這些產業的競爭力以確保勞工的生計"},{"start":823.396,"end":838.8,"text":"我們是支持產業啦我們通常不講補貼啦我們是支持產業那現在我們就是我們兩院趕快來合作把這個特別預算通過了讓經濟部 農業部所有的部會我們所有的力道就可以一次的放下去"},{"start":840.064,"end":858.289,"text":"滿身的設備就可以一直用到我是希望能夠把它解決掉啦不要說這個讓他們沒有辦法生存然後那些要變成到最後事業多要裁員等等造成很多社會問題現在失業率沒有明顯的提升還是持平"},{"start":858.749,"end":887.151,"text":"另外我再請教民眾也很關心普發現金何時能夠發放日前有一些領退休金奉的這些退伍老兵向本席反映希望請退伍費在今年普發一萬元的時候可以直接入帳到他退伍老兵領退休奉的郵局帳戶中那財政部在此次普發現金對象與方式是不是要跟一二年有不同嗎"},{"start":888.22,"end":916.85,"text":"有沒有對象沒有不同沒有不同那我剛剛講的可不可以您剛剛講那個其實我們之前已經研究過因為有所謂的直接入帳就直接進到他的帳戶但是這個資料要非常的完整跟正確才可以那至於這有關退休過去有所謂的退休軍公教的同仁們也反映希望能夠直接入帳但是那個退休金他的方式有各種不同所以沒有辦法完全對上要他簽個欠缺書好了啦"},{"start":917.29,"end":936.662,"text":"對不對 你只要簽結結書進到帳戶有就沒有再花了嘛如果簽結結書的話他就可以到網站去登記或去ATM或去郵局也可以領我們郵局有1294個支局都可以去領其實領的方式有非常多 都很方便我是認為啦 比較簡潔一點讓這些人他們不要好"},{"start":946.789,"end":947.453,"text":"好,我們時間到,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（15時50分）主席，也是我們的副院長，還有卓院長及行政院的團隊。請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，你好。因應國際形勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別預算整個總額高達5,500億元，本來該特別預算主要就是因應美國總統川普的關稅戰而起，但是行政院預算的整個內容裡面包山包海，當行政院不斷以特別之名行日常之實，一般民眾已看不出和年度預算有什麼兩樣。不少學者也警告，濫用特別預算將使年度預算審查變成空洞化，造成整個國家資源的錯置，這是蔡英文時代以前瞻預算來要脅地方和國會的一個老伎倆。譬如此次國防部爭取特別預算，是針對彈藥庫儲設施還有軍品保修工廠庫儲設施進行相關改善，立法院預算中心也質疑這個必須使用特別預算嗎？有這樣的迫切性嗎？本來國防部就應該在年度預算裡面編列，況且馬上就要審年度預算，這個應該在年度預算裡面編列來改善，現在卻挪到特別預算搭便車。","本席不希望也不樂見行政院得不到想要的預算資源就製作圖卡，釋出這些具有殺傷力的消息，結合側翼打擊審查特別預算的這些委員。本席呼籲卓院長應該公開承諾參考立法院預算中心以及審計部的意見，不要讓特別預算變成常態化，逐年減少使用特別預算的比重，限縮特別預算適用的範圍，回歸常態的預算編列。對於這樣的機制，院長的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然希望能夠透過年度預算表現出整個政府施政的重點跟方向，但委員剛剛有提到前瞻基礎建設的特別預算，我想到今天為止，很多委員包括地方的民意代表、地方的各級政府，都覺得前瞻基礎建設對地方有很大的助益，很多委員有爭取過，只要預算編得合理、執行得合理，都應該是福國利民……"],["林委員德福：但是變成常態化，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我早上有說……"],["林委員德福：年度預算應該要編，他就列了很多的項目，所謂前瞻跟這次編的預算，特別預算應該針對要是有災害發生，我相信該花……對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要符合預算法的特別預算都有它的依據。"],["林委員德福：但是你們現在有一點變成巧立名目……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會！請部長說明剛剛委員的提問。"],["林委員德福：而且很多不應該編在這次的預算裡面，卻巧立名目來包山包海的納進去，剛剛有很多的委員也有提出這樣的看法。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長都有說明，來，繼續。"],["顧部長立雄：以115年為例，作業維持費編列在國防部的部分是1,990億，就這個部分是要優先維持裝備的妥善，以資源的配置上來看，只能夠維持設施的堪用。預算中心的這個報告我們有看，但要請委員能夠了解的是，如果以我們要整建彈藥庫庫儲的設施來看，這些彈藥庫是民國90年以前完成的，現在都已經老舊。如果以作業維持費近3年的比例來看，每年大概只能夠編一億多，這個只能夠維持基本庫儲設施的修繕，但是沒有辦法來因應我們現在要籌獲的大量新式武器要入庫及彈藥要囤儲這樣的需求……"],["林委員德福：那你不能編在正常的……"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們一次性的在兩年內把它做一個大量的整建之後，能夠快速……"],["林委員德福：那你不能編在今年的正常預算裡面嗎？為什麼一定要編在這一次裡面？讓人家就是有這種感覺啊！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，如果我們把它編在今年的年度預算裡面的話，有關裝備妥善的部分就幾乎沒有辦法能夠維持到，所以我們庫儲的……"],["林委員德福：所以你就巧立名目來把它納在這一次裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，有關庫儲設施這個部分，我們快速的集中資源，在短時間裡面，在兩年內我們就能夠把它強化。"],["林委員德福：這個存在已經很久的時間。"],["顧部長立雄：這個就能夠構成我們一個戰備的力量。"],["林委員德福：部長，這個存在已經很久的時間，為什麼一定要在這一次納進來？為什麼不能像先前有編正常預算的時候納進去，對不對？你不要讓人家感覺就是包山包海，所以我們立法院預算中心才特別針對這一點質疑，甚至於審計部他們也有這樣的看法，我認為你們該改則改。卓院長，你認為該不該改？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為每一筆預算，包括這一次的強化韌性特別條例跟特別預算都有它編制的根據。"],["林委員德福：有，但是不應該在這個裡面，應該在正常的預算裡面。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長也說過了，急迫性需要在短時間內把這些庫儲設備完成起來。如果是在年度預算，它一定排擠到目前國防預算裡面相關的設備、訓練等等預算。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想任何的作戰要靠後勤，假設我們籌獲的大量武器裝備到了，但事實上沒有足夠的後勤來支撐的話，相關武器裝備的維持是很困難的，所以我們的庫儲設施先要迅速地整建。我們這一次提就只是說在兩年的時間之內，我們大量地整建這些相關的庫儲設施跟這些訓場，讓我們的後備戰力、義務役的訓練及我們這些新式彈藥的武器能夠有一個囤儲的地點。這個部分有它的急迫性存在，如果你一年、一年編，這樣的話，可能要搞個十幾年，可是我們沒有辦法這樣子等待慢慢做，所以我們希望能夠快速地提升能力。"],["林委員德福：我就再進一步請教顧部長，我們現在還有多少錢的預算在美國，但武器沒有來？已經那麼久了，多少錢？你告訴全國的民眾，多少錢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想所有的……"],["林委員德福：錢給了，武器還沒來。"],["顧部長立雄：所有現在相關的這些，不管是我們一般軍購的程序，或者是用特別條例的軍購，它確實有一些武器是遲延的，但我們現在都盡力地在跟美方協作。"],["林委員德福：你不要講現在，我是要求，有多少錢還在美國，但武器沒有來？時間都已經拖到那麼長了，你告訴全國的民眾嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我想我現在……"],["林委員德福：這個一定要清清楚楚，沒有什麼好隱瞞的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：再把詳細資料跟委員做報告，因為牽扯到……"],["林委員德福：很多事情我認為不要刻意去隱瞞。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是隱瞞，這牽扯到雙方之間目前還有一些契約存在的過程當中，我們也期待趕快來實現。"],["林委員德福：錢給好久，武器沒來，對不對？大家心知肚明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望趕快實現。"],["林委員德福：美國商務部說，美國不能再過度依賴臺灣半導體，必須要推動美臺晶片產能五五分這種方案，成就美國版的矽盾。美國已經把話講白，美國對台積電的要求已經不只是投資美國的廠，甚至於要將一半以上的產能移往美國，臺灣半導體整個產業鏈勢必要跟著台積電一起去美國。過去幾個月，許多政府官員包括民進黨人士一再駁斥：台積電不會變成美積電。本席也希望政府堅守立場，不能同意如此離譜的條件，讓企業根留臺灣，避免臺灣的半導體產業被美國給掏空。剛剛龔部長你講的我都聽過，我也了解，但是現在最嚴重就是它要求你把整個產業鏈移過去，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啦！"],["林委員德福：那你要跟著去，臺灣就是掏空了啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！報告委員，我剛才提到即便1,635億真的完成，那個也要好幾年才能完成，它是六個晶圓廠，我們單單剛剛公布的中科就會有四個廠，那個是最先進……"],["林委員德福：那個我剛剛都有聽過。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，竹科跟……"],["林委員德福：部長，最重要的是把握當下。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以我們這個量遠遠超過美國，而且技術也是最先進的會留在臺灣，所以不會……"],["林委員德福：不要美國講一句話，我們什麼都配合啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有這樣的事，所以我們……"],["林委員德福：現在就是這樣的想法啊！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們的鄭副院長就明確的提到這不可能啦！"],["林委員德福：我是希望該堅持的就要堅持。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["林委員德福：院長，經濟部前部長郭智輝6月時說他對臺灣談判的結果有高度的信心，不至於談出比日本、南韓更差的關稅，結果到了8月豬羊變色，除了原本的關稅外，臺灣還要再疊加20%的關稅，美國總統川普9月簽下行政命令，確定日本商品適用15%稅率以及韓國不疊加對等關稅的特例。請問卓院長，經濟部對美國關稅的談判目標，是否維持與日本、韓國已經取得同樣的關稅條件？我們有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，8月7號所暫時實施的臺灣與美國對等關稅，我們是在最惠國待遇上面再加20%的關稅，但是美方也談到，將來談判的最後協定達成時，這都可以再發生任何的變化，我們要爭取的就是把這個對等關稅再合理的往下降，不要再疊加最惠國的待遇，同時對232的這種優惠以及整個供應鏈的合作方式，我們儘量把它爭取到對我國最有利的這個方向來。"],["林委員德福：我希望卓院長該堅持的還是要堅持。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會很堅持國家利益、產業利益。"],["林委員德福：你要是不堅持的話，國人都看在眼裡，因為產業界他們沒有辦法生存，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，您放心。"],["林委員德福：大家心知肚明，美國換了川普總統，難道我們原來的那些產業全部都要收掉嗎？該堅持的還是要堅持，如果對美關稅談判最終的結果比主要競爭對手的關稅來得多，等於是讓國內這些廠商在起跑點上就輸給日本、南韓，對不對？請問經濟部跟財政部，政府是否會給予廠商對美出口關稅的差額補貼，會不會？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們現在是用升級轉型或者是金融上的支持，或者是拓銷多元市場，全部都有一些補助。"],["林委員德福：補助？他們可以撐嗎？為什麼有補助，他們還有很多要失業？他們沒有辦法繼續生存耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們現在收的案件已經超過一千件，我們儘快來處理。"],["林委員德福：不是件數的問題，當下那些人就是失業了，沒有辦法生存啊！老闆根本沒辦法營運啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：減班休息是有增加一點，但是失業並沒有明顯增加。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，譬如機械設備、製造業受到美國關稅影響，由產業工會、同業公會提出一些影響的數據，只要每賣多少產品，我們就補助他一些關稅差額，根據出口時機來核銷補助，減少美國關稅負面的因素，以維護這些產業的競爭力，以確保勞工的生計，請問您有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們是支持產業，我們通常不講補貼，我們是支持產業。現在就是兩院趕快來合作，把這個特別預算通過，讓經濟部、農業部、國防部等所有部會所有的力道就可以一次放下去，滿身的設備就可以一次用到，這個我們儘快來完成就可以了。"],["林委員德福：我希望能夠把它解決掉，不要讓他們沒有辦法生存，到最後變成失業多、要裁員等等，造成很多社會問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，現在失業率沒有明顯提升，還是持平。"],["林委員德福：另外我再請教，民眾也很關心普發現金何時能夠發放，日前有一些領退休俸的退伍老兵向本席反映，希望退輔會在今年普發一萬元的時候，可以直接入帳到他退伍老兵領退休俸的郵局帳戶中。請問財政部在此次普發現金時，對象與方式與112年有不同嗎？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：對象沒有不同，會跟112年相同。"],["林委員德福：沒有不同，那我剛剛講的那個可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：您剛剛講的那個，其實我們之前已經研究過，因為有所謂的直接入帳，就是直接進到他的帳戶，但是這個資料要非常地完整跟正確才可以。至於有關退休的部分，過去退休軍公教的同仁們也反映希望能夠直接入帳，但是退休金給付的方式有各種不同，所以沒有辦法完全對上。"],["林委員德福：要他簽個切結書好了，對不對？只要簽切結書，有進到帳戶，就沒有再發了，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果切結書的話，他就可以到網站去登記，或者去ATM、或去郵局也可以領，我們郵局有1,294個支局都可以去領，其實領的方式有非常多，都很方便的。"],["林委員德福：我認為應該比較簡潔一點，讓這些人不要……你的手續繁雜，到最後怎麼樣不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就是登記入帳、直接入帳、ATM及郵局領現……"],["主席：好，時間到，謝謝……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有偏遠地區的……"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","張啓楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","莊瑞雄","葉元之","王定宇","翁曉玲","陳亭妃","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","邱志偉","林德福","林岱樺","賴士葆","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","李坤城","徐欣瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":98,"meetingDate":["2025-10-03"],"gazette_id":"1147801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147801_00007","1147801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、經濟部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「中央政府因應國際情\n勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147801_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}