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江副院長 卓院長 以及各位先進有請卓院長 還有主計長一起請卓院長 主計長備詢內委員好院長辛苦了 不會應該的"},{"start":35.704,"end":53.383,"text":"我要開始講一下因為今天講錢的事情特別預算我要講一個我們地方政府一般地方政府大家普遍關心的統籌分配稅款一般補助款計畫型補助款現在行政院"},{"start":54.484,"end":71.189,"text":"對 我都說很大聲的 我這個統籌分配稅款給了四千一百多億你看 割這麼多肉 左手割 右手割結果 左邊給錢 右邊收錢 收回來多少 收回來2646元"},{"start":73.893,"end":95.52,"text":"就是一般補助館我們也寫決議說你不可以比去年少你就把計劃的把他錢挖一塊在這裡所以變成最後只有金針價1500多億所以講幾步還是中央集錢錢放在中央啦這東西心態可以改一下"},{"start":96.66,"end":118.35,"text":"主席長我知道你很辛苦 叫院長吵到沒錢找沒路結果發現不是 院長你還是牢牢的把錢賺在手上不輕易的給地方政府 明顯的左手給 右手拿回來結果競爭價只有1500 不是4100不要再講4100 那就是騙人你要回應嗎"},{"start":123.431,"end":144.876,"text":"4165億是統籌分配稅款增加的其中的2646億是屬於地方自己不是收回來 還是給地方只是你把地方的事權帶過去做而已沒有收回來啊這個資料是主計中處的資料"},{"start":145.697,"end":171.528,"text":"是把地方的事權帶過去做啊沒有啦 阿你報告 報告委員這個部分它是原來是地方自治應辦的事項只是它現在改由我們給統籌分配款來做支援這樣還有一個東西 院長你可能不知道喔現在我們就把不要只有看統籌分配款要Plus一般補助款Plus計畫補助款這三個全部加起來有九個縣市"},{"start":174.636,"end":196.365,"text":"一百一十五年比一百一十四年還要少所以為什麼 是因為水平分配不均衡是那個問題啦 就是你們暗砍啦這個東西 來 我就另外一個重點我先把問題丟出來今天這個沒有時間做太多的討論了需要跟主席的時候做討論這個倒希望能夠另外時間跟委員請教我們好好的來研究這個問題苗栗縣"},{"start":201.215,"end":223.451,"text":"一個留下查看的財務狀況的縣市 縣啊苗栗縣是不是列管 請問是不是列管列管 大家知道嘛 列管就是留下查看的他現在財務被你們這樣子跟台北市一樣好耶 第一名耶 第一級的苗栗縣 雖然我不是苗栗縣選出來立委 但是"},{"start":225.092,"end":245.799,"text":"路見不平啦 歧視贏人啦旁邊的人說我的歧視苗栗縣怎麼跟台北市一樣好有問題啊 主席董事長的資料 苗栗縣它的統籌分配稅款的增加是全國排第四所以它的統籌分配稅增加很多苗栗縣跟台北市一樣的笑死人啊大家一聽 蛤 真的喔 蛤"},{"start":246.659,"end":254.322,"text":"真的啊 苗栗縣比我們主席的台中市還要好耶苗栗縣第一名啊 台中市不是第一名啊請問你台中市第幾級"},{"start":268.254,"end":296.248,"text":"台中市應該是第二級啊第二級你看 台中市第二級啊這個副院長啊 要拍拍這個第一級啊 苗栗縣都第一級啊台中縣 苗栗縣就在台中旁邊我是台中出身的我台中人因為苗栗 他就是統籌分割證增加太多才跑到第一級啊我啦 會紅球啦 會紅球增加這麼多就是會紅球啊苗栗縣等於台北市的財務會紅球啦 這個要把它降級"},{"start":297.408,"end":321.422,"text":"補助才多一點他真的就增加到全國排第四啊否則這個標準不要照這麼算嗎應該是照新的財化法就這樣算我不希望你給答案啦 因為你現在胡說亂報我們再跟委員好好的請教 這個值得好好的來研究只是我說苗栗縣的財富跟台北市一樣好我給大家笑個啊啊 笑這麼大聲"},{"start":322.743,"end":350.164,"text":"都這樣 大家笑說苗栗縣居然會跟台北市一樣好 真的永久來 那個...那個...沒有啊 裁判你們就收回去啊收回去兩千六百多億來 我們看啊 那個...關稅問題啊你看哪一個部長要請...那個主席長請回啦喔這個對等關稅啊 怎麼談怎麼談你可以看嘛 今天美國出這個牌 明天出那個牌這都是你們官員講的"},{"start":351.727,"end":377.401,"text":"很簡單嘛因為川普跟習近平還沒有見面他們沒有見面以前台灣就搞不定這句話你同意不同意請問你國際局勢變化無常而且瞬間變化那美國中國之間進行任何的談判我們都無法去左右我們只專注於我們跟美方的談判能不能在我們談判四大原則底下守住我方的立場"},{"start":378.699,"end":403.233,"text":"你應該說我們很無奈啊今天你要他們談去談啊 為什麼拖我們呢我們要趕快搞定 現在苦哈哈的你可以想喔可以想喔 最近有發生一件事情喔很大的事情 今天盧秀燕這跟我們江副院長有關係喔江副院長當市長以後台中市長他就關心什麼 巨大捷安特"},{"start":404.798,"end":418.145,"text":"他的東西在美國海關被扣住了理由就是什麼強迫勞動看了幾個龍頭的一個大的產業怎麼會就這樣被美國扣住說強迫勞動這個盧秀燕"},{"start":425.81,"end":451.991,"text":"盧曉燕市長講的這個主席要好聽喔你以後當市長都已經聽到這個他絕對反對絕對反對中科變成跑去美國某一個州裡面設類中科結果我們的這個政府院長說什麼反對555反對555不接受555給不服農啊因為你們要成立類科學園區啊"},{"start":454.562,"end":473.274,"text":"這個盧修業市長已經表示反對台灣的經驗喔可以被學習但是不能被複製啦不會去學習內中科啦台灣的產業科學院去一個一個掏空搬去美國啊變這個樣子不會不會不會啊這樣台積電他就再次說明說很清楚的"},{"start":479.645,"end":501.889,"text":"美國現在就是台積電鎖定的 你來為什麼找捷安特捷安特 這個部長先不要走 等下這個為什麼找捷安特他是自行車業的世界的龍頭將你佔的廠商希望他到美國去討 譬如說PCB"},{"start":503.575,"end":526.894,"text":"龍頭就希望到美國去 一個一個希望你去美國美國打了正式算盤 今天盧修憲講的就是內中科團隊去某一個州 只有一個結果你們要推一個叫什麼 內科學園區啊你們有沒有嘛 部長有沒有內科學園區 去美國要搞一個內科學園區你要講四原則 台灣優先 台灣優先 我讚你政府對政府 怎麼會這樣想呢"},{"start":533.607,"end":556.726,"text":"報告委員因為台灣我們先是立足台灣嘛然後才佈局全球那佈局全球的話每一個人沒有辦法像台積電錢這麼多啦台積電的現金存量有超過上兆台積電他可以自己就是他有訂單的時候他就去賣那但是其他的廠商如果要佈局全球可能沒有辦法自己單打獨鬥所以為什麼要把這個"},{"start":559.608,"end":583.128,"text":"他要make American great again希望製造業都搬到美國把這個群聚的效果在其他國家創造出來跟台灣做連結這樣才有可能成功我現在講說你跟美國好怎麼好我們沒有意見但是不可以犧牲台灣的產業要像盧市長講的如果把整個中科搬到美國去他反對 我也反對立足台灣優先"},{"start":585.89,"end":602.198,"text":"這個很清楚看得到嘛這個來講所以你講說不接受五五分看起來很欺騙結果都是假的因為你們要假的更多假的更多是台灣的連根拔起一個元旗一個元旗拔去美國變這樣子"},{"start":606.035,"end":635.576,"text":"我們了解委員的顧慮跟推測因為海外佈局基本上是廠商必須有意願那邊會賺錢有訂單你們副院長已經講了啊副院長已經講到這樣子啊類科學園區模式啊他們如果要去的話我們就會把它形作一個產業聚落可以形成那這個產業聚落當然是台灣跟美國必須要合作才有辦法把這個聚落形成因為照過去的科學園區的經驗上來講的話政府還是有一些角色的"},{"start":636.156,"end":649.769,"text":"比如說一站式的窗口啊等等一些情況美國需要你幫忙去蓋劇錄 需要嗎美國需要台灣的經驗去蓋蓋辦嗎不要忘了我們的科學運具其實是仿Silicon Valley的"},{"start":650.6,"end":678.619,"text":"其實Silicon Marriott不是政府的力量我們是政府的力量 Silicon Marriott是比較是創新啦基本上是類似啦 科學園區就這樣子啦是生產 先進的生產製造對 不要忘了 這個科學園區之所以偉大因為新竹科學園區有一個台積電它半導體為主 佔了百分之七十幾很清楚 看得到結果你們現在來講說 我聽你蓋科學園區 美國是你鄉"},{"start":680.648,"end":708.448,"text":"台積電之所以偉大也是因為周邊的供應鏈或群聚所形成你講的重點他就是希望你的整個的搬走他要講喔別忘了美國的商業部長盧克尼克講了喔他希望台積電類似台積電加上他的Supply Chain通通過去我剛才向委員報告了就是說就廠商來講那邊要有訂單而且可以賺錢他才會去"},{"start":714.806,"end":737.564,"text":"我們是認為廠商的國際佈局是國家的一個政策可以協助但是一定要維持我們關鍵領先地位這個不容打折我時間有限實際上你們的回答我不滿意現在美國的農業部的次長來了有沒有可能要求大家都怕會要求零關稅"},{"start":739.673,"end":744.438,"text":"零關稅喔你可不可以承諾絕對反對零關稅農產品零關稅可不可以"},{"start":747.509,"end":772.856,"text":"我們在談對等關稅當中來 請部長說明我想我們在台美關稅對於市場建築的部分我想美國美光的期待台灣有台灣的要捍衛跟堅守的所以我們一定會堅持在糧食安全的前提之下還有維護產業那個我都聽不懂你就告訴我你就講一句話或者葛珮講一句話絕對不同意"},{"start":773.942,"end":791.888,"text":"美國的農產品零關稅進來台灣我跟委員報告齁零關稅你要看零關稅因為有的零關稅是對台灣有利的像原物料進來零關稅那我就跟你舉例啊農產品冷凍雞腿雞翅膀20%20%"},{"start":799.484,"end":824.522,"text":"我們現在所有的品項在談判的過程中我們現在還沒有辦法做最後的確認還沒有辦法做最後的確認第一個不可能全面准入而且是零關稅"},{"start":826.667,"end":841.474,"text":"另外在這個談判的過程當中我們必須要有取跟有捨那如果對我們的產業包括農業在發生衝擊的情況下農業部已經有180億的對產業的支持在裡面我們可以隨時支應我們不會讓業者發生這樣的困難我告訴兩位長官喔全世界WTO談判的時候有一項絕對保護就是農業"},{"start":852.255,"end":880.156,"text":"農業絕對保護 全世界都一樣包括美國一樣我們不能夠不保護否則 那個陳部長你會變成歷史罪人 可可會變成歷史罪人我們還會為捍衛農民的權益跟糧食安全結果是農產品零關稅讓他美國產品進來的話是你們就變成歷史罪人好 最後一個問題那個部長請回教育部教育部借這個任性趁火打劫"},{"start":881.896,"end":888.703,"text":"還要了這個產學合作一百億 笑死人來我要講一個東西這個我的重點在這裡 讓我講完喔"},{"start":893.017,"end":911.992,"text":"產學合作企業都有錢啊 為什麼產學合作 你要編100億然後為什麼你沒有編勞動部 為什麼沒有編我們的無薪假的勞工 已經8000多了 快要1萬了這個東西 關稅都影響了 肥累累一個不編 一個趁火打劫 要了100億 我絕對砍"},{"start":914.624,"end":930.207,"text":"為什麼產學有多 企業有錢啊你為什麼還要便利百億委員講這個是不公平的因為現在我們這些大學裡邊包含委員陳金任教的學校裡邊很多的這個STEM的老師都然後我們現在提出一個類一學院就是希望能夠大學的理工科的老師然後也能夠肥料我們的人才然後也能夠"},{"start":945.011,"end":947.196,"text":"好謝謝那個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（16時21分）謝謝主席江副院長、卓院長以及各位先進。有請卓院長及主計長。"],["主席：請卓院長、主計長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長辛苦了，今天一天都在這裡。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，應該的。"],["賴委員士葆：我要開始講一下，因為今天講錢的事情，也就是特別預算，我講一個地方政府大家普遍關心的統籌分配稅款、一般性補助款、計畫型補助款。現在行政院對外都說很大聲，說統籌分配稅款給了四千一百多億，你看割這麼多肉，左手割、右手割，結果呢？左邊給錢、右邊收錢啦！收回來多少？收回來2,646億。一般性補助款我們也寫決議了，說不可以比去年少，你們就把計畫的錢挖一塊在這裡，所以變成最後只有淨增加一千五百多億，所以講半天，還是中央集錢，錢放在中央啦！關於這個東西，心態可以改一下啦！主計長，我知道你很辛苦，被院長操到這樣，沒錢又找不到路，結果現在發現不是耶！院長還是牢牢地把錢攥在手上啊！不輕易給地方政府，這很明顯的是左手給、右手拿回來，結果淨增加只有一千五，不是四千一啊！不要再講四千一，那就是騙人的，院長要回應嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：4,165億是統籌分配稅款增加的……"],["賴委員士葆：對，但是淨增加只有一千五啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：其中的2,646億是……"],["賴委員士葆：你們收回來了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們評估屬於地方……"],["賴委員士葆：收回來了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是收回來，還是給地方。"],["賴委員士葆：收回來了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：還是給地方。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有給啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：只是把地方的事權帶過去做而已。"],["賴委員士葆：沒，收回來了啦！現在就……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有收回來啊！"],["賴委員士葆：這個資料是主計總處的資料。"],["卓院長榮泰：是把地方的事權帶過去做啊！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這個部分原來是地方自治應辦的事項，只是現在改由我們給統籌分配稅款來支應。"],["賴委員士葆：還有一個東西院長可能不知道，現在我們不要只有看統籌分配稅款，要plus一般性補助款、plus計畫型補助款，這三個全部加起來，有9個縣市是115年比114年還要少。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以為什麼？是因為水平分配不均衡。"],["賴委員士葆：不是那個問題啦！就是你們「暗崁」，關於這個東西，我就有另外一個重點，我現在把問題丟出來，今天沒有時間做太多的討論，需要的時候再跟主計長討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個倒希望能夠在另外的時間跟委員請教，我們好好的來研究這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：我們來研究這個東西，苗栗縣，一個留校察看、有財務狀況的縣市，苗栗縣是不是被列管？請問是不是被列管？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，它目前……"],["賴委員士葆：列管大家知道嘛，列管就是留校察看，它現在的財務被你們這樣子弄之後，跟臺北市一樣好耶！第一名耶！苗栗縣變第一級的！雖然我不是苗栗縣選出來的立委，但是路見不平，這氣死人了啦！旁邊的人也氣死了，說苗栗縣怎麼跟臺北市一樣好？有問題啊！怎麼會跟臺北市一樣好？"],["卓院長榮泰：主計長的資料，苗栗縣統籌分配稅款增加的部分是排全國第四，因為它的統籌分配稅款增加很多。"],["賴委員士葆：苗栗縣跟臺北市一樣，笑死人！大家一聽，說：「啊？真的喔？」苗栗縣比我們主席的臺中市還要好，苗栗縣第一名啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：請主計長……"],["賴委員士葆：臺中市不是第一名。"],["卓院長榮泰：請主計長來說明，它原來不是第五級，是因為財政控管才跑到第五級。"],["賴委員士葆：是第一級啊！請問你臺中是第幾級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告一下，它原來是第三級，是因為它的舉債超過上限，所以把它列為第五級。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你臺中是第幾級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：臺中市應該是第二級。"],["賴委員士葆：臺中市第二級，副院長，要打拚一下，要第一級啊！苗栗縣就第一級，苗栗縣就在臺中旁邊，我是臺中出生的，我是臺中人，所以我對這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，因為苗栗就是統籌分配稅增加太多才跑到第一級。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦，這會被人家笑啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，增加這麼多就是會被人家笑。"],["賴委員士葆：苗栗縣等於臺北市的財務，這會被人家笑啦！這個要把它降級，補助才會多一點啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：它真的就……"],["陳主計長淑姿：表示增加了很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：它真的就增加到全國排第四啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：否則這個標準不要照這樣算嗎？照現在的財劃法，就是這樣算。"],["賴委員士葆：我不希望你給答案啦，因為你現在就胡說八道一通。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再跟委員好好的請教，這個值得好好的來研究。"],["賴委員士葆：我說會被人家笑，我說：「苗栗縣的財務跟臺北市一樣好」，大家笑到說：「啊？」笑得很大聲耶！大家笑說苗栗縣居然會跟臺北市一樣好！真的會被人家笑。"],["卓院長榮泰：按照新的財劃法，結果就是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，財劃法你們就收回去了啊，收回去兩千六百多億。主計長請回。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我們來看關稅問題，你看要請哪一個部長。對等關稅怎麼談、怎麼談，你可以看嘛，今天美國出這個牌，明天出那個牌，這都是你們官員講的，很簡單嘛，因為川普跟習近平還沒有見面，在他們沒有見面以前臺灣就搞不定，請問這句話你同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：國際局勢變化無常，而且瞬間變化。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你同不同意這句話？"],["卓院長榮泰：美國、中國之間進行任何的談判，我們都無法去左右。"],["賴委員士葆：當然啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只專注於我們跟美方的談判，能不能在我們的談判四大原則底下守住我方的立場。"],["賴委員士葆：你應該說我們很無奈，這件事他們要談就談啊，為什麼拖我們的呢？我們要趕快搞定，現在苦哈哈的，你可以想像喔。最近有發生一件很大的事情，今天盧秀燕……這跟我們江副院長有關係，江副院長當市長了以後，臺中市長就關係著什麼？捷安特（GIANT），它的東西在美國海關被扣住了，理由是什麼？強迫勞動，看到鬼喔！這麼大的一個龍頭產業，怎麼會說是強迫勞動，就這樣被美國扣住？經濟部長一起上來。盧秀燕市長講的這個，主席要好好聽，你以後要當市長的，要認真聽這個，他絕對反對中科跑去美國某一個州裡面設類中科，結果我們的鄭副院長說什麼？他說：「反對五五、不接受五五」，根本是糊弄！因為你們要成立類科學園區，盧秀燕市長已經表示反對，因為這樣子整個掏空……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣的經驗可以被學習，但是不能被複製。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會去學習一個類中科啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你們現在準備要把整個臺灣的產業、科學園區一個一個掏空搬去美國，變這個樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啊！"],["賴委員士葆：捷安特……來，聽我講，不要急，你先……"],["龔部長明鑫：像台積電就再次說明……"],["賴委員士葆：我沒叫你講話，你先不要講。很清楚的，美國現在就是鎖定台積電，他叫你來，為什麼找捷安特？部長先不要走喔！跟你也有關係，請等一下。為什麼找捷安特？它是自行車業世界的龍頭，這麼讚的廠商希望它到美國去設廠，譬如說PCB龍頭，就是希望你到美國去，一個一個都希望你去美國，這是美國打的算盤，今天盧秀燕講的就是……"],["龔部長明鑫：好像沒有這樣的說法。"],["賴委員士葆：「類中科」，反對去某一個州設一個，結果你們要推一個叫「類科學園區」，部長，有沒有？要去美國搞一個「類科學園區」，也講四個原則，臺灣優先，臺灣優先多棒啊！government to government、政府對政府，怎麼會這樣想呢？請部長回答。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們先是立足臺灣然後才布局全球，布局全球的話，你總是要有一個方法……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有辦法像台積電錢這麼多啦！台積電的現金存量超過上兆嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是，台積電可以自己……它有訂單的時候它就去……"],["賴委員士葆：它可以分出去，但別的地方它沒有辦法啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：但是其他的廠商如果要布局全球……"],["賴委員士葆：各位長官你們聽好啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：可能沒有辦法單打獨鬥，所以為什麼要把……"],["賴委員士葆：美國是有計畫的，他要「Make America Great Again.」，希望製造業都搬到美國。"],["龔部長明鑫：把這個群聚的效果在其他國家創造出來跟臺灣做連結，這樣才有可能成功。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我現在講你跟美國好，要怎麼好，我們沒有意見，但是不可以犧牲臺灣的產業……"],["龔部長明鑫：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：像盧市長講的，如果把整個中科搬到美國去，他反對，我也反對，老實講站在我是臺中出生的……"],["龔部長明鑫：立足臺灣優先、立足臺灣優先才有布局。"],["賴委員士葆：這個很清楚看得到嘛！以這個來講，你說不接受「五五分」，看起來很有氣魄，結果都是假的啦！因為你們要給得更多、給得更多，臺灣等於連根拔起……"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：一個園區、一個園區拔了跑去美國，變這樣子！"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們了解委員的顧慮跟推測啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：因為海外布局基本上是廠商必須有意願，那邊會賺錢、有訂單，它才會去布局。"],["賴委員士葆：你們副院長已經講了，副院長已經講這樣子啊！「類科學園區」模式啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：他們如果要去的話，我們就會把它形塑為一個產業聚落，這個產業聚落當然是臺灣跟美國必須要合作才有辦法把這個聚落形成。因為照過去科學園區的經驗來講，政府還是有一些角色的，比如說一站式的窗口等等一些情況，這個是行政上……"],["賴委員士葆：美國需要你幫忙去蓋聚落？需要嗎？美國需要臺灣的經驗去蓋嗎？不要忘了，我們的科學園區是仿Silicon Valley的，但其實Silicon Valley不是政府的力量，而我們是政府的力量，差在這邊而已耶！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：不一樣，Silicon Valley比較是創新啦，臺灣的聚落是……"],["賴委員士葆：基本上是類似的，科學園區就這樣子啊，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是先進的生產製造，所以有一點點不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：不要忘了，科學園區之所以偉大是因為新竹科學園區有一個台積電，它以半導體為主，占了百分之七十幾，很清楚、看得到，結果你們現在講說：我們替你蓋科學園區。美國心裡想：我怎麼需要你幫我蓋科學園區呢？笑死人了！"],["龔部長明鑫：台積電之所以偉大，也是因為周邊的供應鏈或群聚所形成，它才有辦法這麼偉大。"],["賴委員士葆：對，你講到重點了，它就是希望你整個搬走啊！他有講喔！不要忘了美國的商業部長盧特尼克講的，他希望台積電、類似台積電的，加上它的supply chain通通過去。"],["龔部長明鑫：我剛才向委員報告，就廠商來講，那邊要有訂單，而且可以賺錢，它才會去，因為它是一個公司，必須要向投資人負責。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有在push啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們認為廠商的國際布局是國家政策可以協助的，但是一定要維持我們的關鍵領先地位，這個不容打折啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我時間有限啦，事實上你們的回答我不滿意啦！現在美國農業部的次長來了，有沒有可能要求……大家都怕他會要求零關稅喔！你可不可以承諾絕對反對零關稅？反對農產品零關稅，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在談對等關稅當中……請部長說明，來。"],["陳部長駿季：我們在臺美關稅對於市場進出的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講其他的，回答這個就好……"],["陳部長駿季：我想美國有美方的期待，但臺灣有臺灣要捍衛跟堅守的，所以我們一定會堅持，在糧食安全的前提之下，還有維護產業……"],["賴委員士葆：那個我都聽不懂啦，你講的我都聽不懂，你就告訴我，你就講一句話，或者閣揆講一句話「絕對不同意美國的農產品零關稅進來臺灣」，講這一句就好，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講其他的，這個Yes or No？"],["陳部長駿季：你要看零關稅，因為有的零關稅是對臺灣有利的，像原物料進來零關稅……"],["賴委員士葆：你講這個，那我就舉例農產品中的冷凍雞腿、雞翅膀20%，你要不要零關稅，你告訴我？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在所有的品項……"],["賴委員士葆：稻米也有關稅啊！"],["陳部長駿季：品項還在談判的過程中，我們現在沒有辦法做最後的確認……"],["賴委員士葆：你還是沒有回答我。來，院長你講話吧！你來講個立場。"],["陳部長駿季：還沒有辦法做最後的確認。"],["賴委員士葆：農民會怕啊！我們怎麼辦呢？你可不可以承諾？美國如果跟我們要，美國會提出來喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個……"],["賴委員士葆：農產品零關稅全面進口，我絕對反對，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，不可能全面准入，而且是零關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：絕對不可能嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：另外在談判的過程當中，我們必須要有取跟有捨，如果對我們的產業，包括農業，在發生衝擊的情況之下，農業部已經有180億對產業的支持在裡面，我們可以隨時支應……"],["賴委員士葆：還不夠、還不夠。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不會讓業者發生這樣的困難。"],["賴委員士葆：我告訴兩位長官，全世界WTO談判的時候有一項絕對保護的就是農業，農業絕對保護，全世界都一樣，包括美國也一樣，我們不能夠不保護，否則陳部長你會變成歷史罪人，閣揆會變成歷史罪人喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我們還是會捍衛農民的權益跟糧食安全……"],["賴委員士葆：如果你跟美國談的結果是農產品零關稅，讓美國產品進來的話，你們就會變成歷史罪人。","好，最後一個問題，部長請回。教育部藉著「韌性」趁火打劫，還要了產學合作100億，笑死人！勞動部……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是對高教人才。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我要講一個東西，我的重點在這裡，讓我講完，關於產學合作，企業都有錢，為什麼產學合作要編100億？為什麼沒有編在勞動部？為什麼沒有編？我們無薪假的勞工已經八千多了，快要1萬了，關稅影響的很嚴重，一個不編、一個趁火打劫要了100億，我絕對砍！"],["洪部長申翰：那個……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，您講這樣不公平……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，為什麼產學合作？企業界有錢啊！為什麼你還要編100億？"],["鄭部長英耀：委員講這樣是不公平的。"],["賴委員士葆：不公平？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為現在我們這些大學裡，包含委員曾經任教的學校裡，很多STEAM的老師都……"],["賴委員士葆：企業有錢啊！直接產學合作啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在提出類醫學院是希望讓大學理工科的老師能夠跟產業合作，然後也能夠培養我們的人才，更能夠紓緩……"],["賴委員士葆：企業有錢，不需要你編100億啊！這是趁火打劫啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們希望企業能夠捐資給大學，成立講座，然後延攬海內外優秀學者……"],["主席：謝謝，部長是不是再用書面回復賴委員？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員，謝謝卓院長。","陳冠廷委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","主旨：關於「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」之質詢","一、稻米與雞、豬肉產業的風險準備","1.關於農業敏感產品保護機制：","(1)行政院是否已建立「農業敏感產品清單」？稻米與雞、豬肉是否被列為絕對優先保護項目？","(2)若未來美方要求擴大開放稻米市場或降低雞、豬肉配額，最終決策層級為農業部、經貿辦還是國安會？請說明跨部會決策機制。","(3)稻米和雞、豬肉是否為政府設定的「不可退讓紅線」？當農業部認為會衝擊產業，但經貿單位認為必須讓步時，最終裁決權責歸屬為何？","2.關於190億農業韌性預算中美國市場拓展經費之質詢：","(1)預算書第71頁編列「獎勵花卉及其種苗、毛豆、國產茶葉、鱸魚、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀、虱目魚、魷魚、鰻魚等品項業者拓展美國高端外銷市場所需經費約45億元」，此筆預算占農業韌性預算比例甚高，為何特別鎖定美國市場？","(2)若廠商欲拓展日本、歐洲等其他高端市場，是否得申請此筆補助？若否，理由為何？若可，預算科目為何特別標明「美國」？","(3)此筆預算之設計是否能有助於降低對美貿易順差？請說明編列考量。","3.關於稻米與雞、豬肉產業體質強化：","(1)190億農業韌性預算中，規劃用於強化稻米與雞、豬肉產業體質之經費為何？占總預算比例為何？","(2)預算書中貸款及冷鏈相關編列，如何直接連結至提升稻米與雞、豬肉產業競爭力？請具體說明執行策略。","二、普發現金的防詐與消費效益強化","1.關於防詐機制與AI客服導入：","(1)數位發展部是否已協調電信業者建立惡意簡訊攔截系統，在詐騙簡訊發出前即予攔截？","(2)上次普發6,000元期間，165反詐騙專線接獲多少報案？本次預估增加多少？","(3)本次預算書業務費3.53億元中，「網路客服」編列1.27億元，其中用於防詐之經費為何？","(4)是否評估在165反詐騙專線試辦導入AI客服技術，處理標準化詢問（如「簡訊是真的嗎」、「網站安全嗎」），讓真人專線專注處理複雜案件？若可行，預計何時啟動？若有疑慮，主要考量為何？","2.關於消費效益提升與宣導策略：","(1)本次編列媒體宣導1,350萬元，宣導內容規劃為何？是否僅說明領取方式，或同時包含鼓勵消費、支持國內產業之內容？","(2)根據央行統計，上次普發6,000元相當比例轉為儲蓄，本次如何透過宣導引導有消費能力之民眾提高消費意願？","(3)是否規劃整合各部會消費優惠資訊，鼓勵支持在地商圈、購買國產品？若否，理由為何？","三、關鍵基礎設施防護","1.關於無人機防禦系統部署：","(1)本次特別預算針對關鍵基礎設施強化編列無人機相關裝備之緣由為何？未來部署及應用規劃為何？","(2)內政部警政署保安警察第二總隊編列21億餘元採購無人機、干擾器、無人機偵蒐系統、無人機電子圍籬等，預計購買數量為何？預計分布於哪些關鍵基礎設施？","2.關於系統故障及內部安全漏洞之因應：","(1)鑒於去年520前夕龍崎變電所跳電、峨眉超高壓變電所遭竊賊闖入，以及今年9月9日興達電廠發生爆炸意外，此類關鍵基礎設施安全漏洞未來如何強化因應？","(2)興達電廠爆炸調查結果指出廠商未使用正確規格墊片，台電監督責任為何？如何精進？","(3)本次特別預算主要針對外部防範，針對內部人員操作、廠商施工品質等內部問題，是否編列相關預算強化？若否，如何確保內部作業安全？","3.關於保安警察第二總隊人力部署：","(1)保安警察第二總隊目前派駐1,811名警力於油、水、電、通訊等關鍵基礎設施，目前部署情形為何？","(2)本次興達電廠發生爆炸之興建廠區並未有保二警力派駐，是否檢討人力及派駐地點需求？保二總隊人力是否充足？能否增加關鍵基礎設施之人力部署？","四、海防特別預算","1.關於預算編列規劃與財政紀律：","(1)本次「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」與國防部、海委會公務預算，以及接下來之「不對稱作戰及作戰韌性特別預算」，編列規劃為何？是否有重疊或重複編列之狀況？","(2)透過特別預算編列之必要性為何？為何需透過特別預算編列，而非編列於公務預算內？","(3)強化指管通信、設施更新及提升戰備量能、強化海防等項目過去曾編列於公務預算，本次透過特別預算編列之原因為何？請具體說明特別預算編列之特殊性與必要性。","2.關於國軍與海巡署雷達系統整合：","(1)本次特別預算欲整合國軍與海巡署雷達系統，過去國軍雷達與海巡雷達系統是否各自獨立、未經整合？","(2)過去情資如何交換？面對灰色地帶侵擾時，如何協調應對？","(3)整合國軍及海巡雷達系統建立情資共享平台後，預期效益為何？","3.關於滲透偷渡事件因應：","(1)去年至今至少發生4起中國籍人士駕駛小艇衝岸事件，海委會報告亦提及近一年來透過陸籍小型目標測試滲透、偷渡事件頻仍，監察院調查報告要求行政院與海巡署檢討，檢討報告內容為何？","(2)監察院指出海巡署岸際雷達性能難以掌握橡皮艇等小型目標、監偵作業自動化不足而需仰賴人員長時間專注監視、智慧型岸際監控系統及紅外線熱影像系統布建密度不足，以及守望哨配備之光學望遠鏡辨識距離有限等問題，監偵設備及量能是否不足？精進作為為何？","(3)針對透過小艇、小型目標侵擾之情形，是否可透過雷達系統之提升與整合來應對？未來還可如何強化監控，避免透過類似方式侵擾？","4.關於海巡艦艇增建與無人載具部署：","(1)本次特別預算規劃增建海巡艦艇及強化無人載具部署，具體規劃為何？","(2)海巡署編列68億元籌獲各式無人機、訓場及訓練設備，無人機預計購買多少架次？性能為何？能否長距離長時間飛行並因應天候因素？預計何時完成籌獲？","(3)完成部署前，暫時性之應對作為為何？","(4)本次特別預算無人機之籌獲是否交由「空中作業隊」來部署？「空中作業隊」接下來之規劃為何？","5.關於海巡署有人機隊組建評估：","(1)海巡署未來是否規劃組成有人機隊？甚至增加定翼機隊？","(2)海巡署是否評估過組成定翼機或旋翼機隊，以巡邏、偵巡周邊水域，無論是海巡署自行編制機隊及人員，或是以租賃方式組建，海委會及海巡署之規劃為何？","(3)若組建有人機隊，預期效益為何？如何與無人機、雷達站等監控系統形成空海協同與分層監管？","五、無人載具系統共同作戰圖像","1.關於軍民共同圖像系統監偵能力計畫：","(1)國防部編列5億元「軍民共同圖像系統監偵能力計畫」，建置共同圖像平台整合既有雷達與偵監系統，此筆預算是否用於建立與美軍JCOP（Joint Common Operational Picture）相當之「共同作戰圖像」標準，能讓各種無人機之影像與數據即時整合？","(2)美方商售無人機（例如彈簧刀、Altius）是否已簽署協定，能直接連結我方之共同圖像平台？若否，如何確保戰時向美方採購之無人機影像能即時進入我方指揮所？","(3)未來是否有計畫讓此平台不僅供軍用，還能與海巡署、民航局、國安單位等跨部會協同，真正建構屬於台灣之JCOP？","2.關於無人機異質整合戰略：","(1)國防部目前採購之無人機來源多元，包含美國商售、中科院研發、國內商規廠商，如何建立能整合各式無人載具之平台，組成戰力最強之系統？","(2)是否理解無人機戰力來自於各種無人載具之異質整合，而非單一最佳平台？","(3)請於本會期內提出明確之無人機戰略以及共同作戰圖像標準，確保「軍民共同圖像」名符其實。","六、海巡無人載具訓練","1.關於無人載具訓練機制：","(1)海巡署編列近41億元籌補各式海空無人載具，裝備到貨後，訓練由誰負責？是海巡署自行訓練、廠商代訓，或是納入國防部之無人機訓練體系？","(2)是否確保第一線操作人員具備無人載具操作、維護及酬載更換能力？訓練規劃與時程為何？","2.關於平戰轉換與跨部會協同：","(1)海巡署之新無人機、無人船、岸基感測站，是否全部接入國防部之聯合情監偵平台，發揮共同作戰圖像能力？","(2)若海巡署無法串接國軍聯合情監偵平台，如何落實平戰轉換機制，發揮「第二海軍」能力？","(3)請說明海巡署與國防部在資料鏈、共同作戰圖像方面之協同整合規劃。","請行政院及相關權管部會就上述問題提供詳細說明，並提出具體可行之政策方案。請於兩週內回覆。"],["主席：下一位請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","張啓楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","莊瑞雄","葉元之","王定宇","翁曉玲","陳亭妃","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","邱志偉","林德福","林岱樺","賴士葆","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","李坤城","徐欣瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":98,"meetingDate":["2025-10-03"],"gazette_id":"1147801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147801_00007","1147801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、經濟部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「中央政府因應國際情\n勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147801_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}