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ext":"第25案第5目檢列8500萬元為黃國昌等提案第26案檢列5000萬元凍結80%為羅志強等提案第27案檢列950萬元為羅志強等提案第28案"},{"start":2264.697,"end":2279.108,"text":"檢列15050萬元為零私名等提案第29案動結150萬元為零私名等提案第30案第五目向下零一規劃評估與研究檢列50萬元動結25%為翁小林等提案第31案零二訪視調查與合作檢列200萬元動結50%為翁小林等提案第32案"},{"start":2288.354,"end":2294.236,"text":"第12訪試調查與合作,檢列25萬元,凍結50%為翁曉琳等提案。第33案,零二中設備及投資檢列400萬元,凍結25%為翁曉琳等提案。第34案,零三教育推廣與交流,檢列500萬元,凍結50%為翁曉琳等提案。"},{"start":2308.981,"end":2323.853,"text":"第35案零三中業務費至一般事務費凍結50萬元為吳思堯等提案。第36案至第39案為第6目一般建築及設備之預算提案。第36案第6目第一節營建工程剪貼244萬5000元為黃國昌等提案。第37案"},{"start":2327.996,"end":2337.719,"text":"第1屆向下01營建工程中設備及投資之房屋建築及設備費凍結550萬元委員吳宗憲等提案第38案第三屆其他設備檢列2150萬1千元委員黃國昌等提案第39案第三屆向下02資訊設備檢列386萬9千元委員羅志強等提案"},{"start":2351.443,"end":2360.782,"text":"第40案之第56案分別為委員吳思瑤等、委員沈發慧等、委員莊瑞雄等、委員陳俊宇等、委員鍾嘉斌等所提之主決議案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2364.828,"end":2384.923,"text":"預算數及所有提案均於選擇完畢進行討論請我們先說明預算案的處理方式依照委員會處理預算提案的慣例輸入部分依來源別以向為單位稅出依機關別以目為單位分別依序進行審查各單位預算中"},{"start":2386.144,"end":2397.075,"text":"與處理委員所提之徵三提案之後及未涉及之預算部分均與照列有關正式別稅出預算隨同機關別審查結果調整"},{"start":2400.331,"end":2416.812,"text":"預算提案經由委員會幕僚的整理以將所收的委員提案彙整成預算提案本並且按照預算科別製作彙整表方便各位與審查室參考請大家分別參閱提案本及彙整表進行討論"},{"start":2420.345,"end":2440.05,"text":"稍後經討論決議修正之預算提案,請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後,送交主題臺並列入公報記錄。審查預算過程中如有列席幕僚與首次答覆委員問題發言時,請先自行介紹職稱姓名以立公報人員記錄。"},{"start":2445.145,"end":2465.451,"text":"我們現在進行本日議程討論事項繼續審查14年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分先處理稅路部分因為沒有委員提案稅路預算就均與照列"},{"start":2469.951,"end":2488.079,"text":"稅出提案處理原則繼續審理稅出提案處理前先做說明依照委員會處理預算提案之慣例會讓所有提案委員先說明自己的提案並表達意見在經與會機關充分討論之後做成決議也就是程序上按照會整表所列的提案順序"},{"start":2488.7,"end":2500.475,"text":"依序由提案委員先就提案內容進行說明之後再由機關代表予以答覆然後再整目一起處理做成決議。臨時上我們按照慣例盡可能採共識的方式處理進行處理稅出部分依前"},{"start":2507.095,"end":2526.43,"text":"前述原則依序進行先請提案委員針對提案內容進行說明再請機關代表回覆之後再做成決議請參閱提案本期彙整表進行討論我們進入討論我們先就案號第一案"},{"start":2536.595,"end":2543.254,"text":"稅出第6款第一項兼查院的業務費部分那我們先請提案委員翁曉琳說明"},{"start":2571.537,"end":2593.543,"text":"首先針對第一案本席所提出的要刪減監察院的國外旅費的經費主要也是因為看到監察院的國外旅費年年的增長113年比112年增加23%114年又比113年又增加16%"},{"start":2600.97,"end":2619.788,"text":"更何況就是在他們這次所列的這個出國旅費的項目裡面還有什麼職員到日本去考察黑熊保育啊然後這個根本跟監察院的職權無關那麼再加上他所列的出國的人員天數次數等等都沒有一個"},{"start":2621.57,"end":2637.864,"text":"統計資料就是每一年的出國人員的人數天數次數沒有一個統計資料出國報告當中其實也不是寫得很清楚所以本期認為國外旅費的增幅以及計劃的內容欠缺必要性跟妥適性同時也應該要將他們所做的出國的考察報告都應該要公開要寫得詳盡所以在這裡提出預算是簡略"},{"start":2647.892,"end":2648.732,"text":"第1案的部分我們麻煩機關回覆"},{"start":2667.189,"end":2692.207,"text":"好,謝謝主席也謝謝翁委員的垂詢翁委員這個案其實橫跨四個科目它不是一個科目它是四個科目有關一般行政還有議事業務還有參加國際會議那其他我來做一個綜合報告然後針對個別的包括第一案、第八案、第九案、二十一案、二十二案、二十三案都跟國外旅費有關我在個別"},{"start":2693.287,"end":2712.383,"text":"案號的時候我在做分別對各位委員做說明那在第一案的部分其實我們這一次的國外旅費總共有四個項目第一個是一般行政包括翁委員剛剛提到的這個所謂黑熊的問題這個其實是我們每年職員出國的部分那題目由我們職員自己選定這是31萬5"},{"start":2714.925,"end":2724.928,"text":"這一次主要是因為我們要去北海道跟長野縣看人雄如何共存但可能題目寫得不夠清楚所以這個部分我們可以同意刪除"},{"start":2730.61,"end":2750.103,"text":"第2個部分一般行政的部分是有關首長副首長的出國費用因為我們現在有很多國際會議要參加包括監察院每年參加的這個IOI的會議Apple的會議還有FEEL的會議那另外還有國家人權委員會參加每年的亞太人權論壇的部分所以這個我們是編319萬這是編在議事業務事項裡面"},{"start":2755.246,"end":2762.352,"text":"第3個部分是有關人權會的部分是我們所有人權的活動跟這個參訪交流這個是編了400加200那400加200的意思其實是我們這個包括參加我剛才提到的這個亞太人權論壇的這個部分還有200的部分是我們每年有不同的國家在參訪甚至是互訪"},{"start":2784.449,"end":2800.92,"text":"因為基於這個跟外交部共同的一個默契我們通常不會事先公開但是事後我們都有很清楚的詳列在決算表裡面也都有所以總共我們總共是四個項目那剛剛提到的這個職員出國是31萬5首長副首長是80萬"},{"start":2805.302,"end":2817.367,"text":"國際會議是319萬那其他人權的部分是400加200所以這個總共加起來是1296那我們是建議不要刪除這麼多以上報告請問翁委員你有接受機關的說法嗎"},{"start":2825.143,"end":2847.053,"text":"我剛剛聽了秘書長的這個說法讓我很驚訝啊就是竟然就是出國的這個項目是可以由職員自己去選擇他要出國做什麼然後到哪個地點然後這次說到日本考察黑熊保育是要去了解人熊共處這跟你們立法院的職權有什麼關係"},{"start":2848.334,"end":2849.575,"text":"這幾年來我們調查包括原住民狩獵習慣跟這個也是動物保育我們總共這幾年來查了32案"},{"start":2868.974,"end":2890.224,"text":"這個部分我們認為其實它比例相當高所以我們的職員自己選定這個題目那選定這個題目要去日本的長野還有這個北海道看棕熊跟黑熊然後研究如何這個學習日本的人熊共存的這個部分那這個我剛剛已經說明很清楚如果委員有爭議的話我們就把這個項目拿掉"},{"start":2893.223,"end":2916.45,"text":"對我是說從你們這次的這個出國地點就可以凸顯出在出國這個做公務考察都沒有仔細去思考啊像我們現在就是大家很關心的超市雞蛋的問題還有疫苗採採購的問題還有很多的這個這個政務官他可能接受什麼性招待啊等等的這些問題你們都不去查也不去了解說人家國外怎麼做"},{"start":2917.51,"end":2939.731,"text":"政府競選的採購有很多的部分我跟委員報告的是主席不好意思我會議詢問一下那個請主席維持一下這裡的秩序什麼時候來這邊備席的官員沒有得到主席的同意可以自己按麥克風講話是不是可以請主席規範一下沒問題"},{"start":2942.421,"end":2967.854,"text":"那今天剛剛會議上我們麻煩列席的機關我們先等委員把話講完之後然後再麻煩列席機關回覆好謝謝那翁委員繼續好所以我要講就是說其實這個所有的公務出國去考察這個雖然是有必要性但是我們要看到他這個出國考察回來的成效是如何那這些年來我們不覺得說監察院他出國去考察參加這些國際會議然後所做的這個觀摩"},{"start":2971.736,"end":2999.214,"text":"對於他們要增進監察院的職權有什麼幫助反而就是說我們這邊講的這個國會調查權然後監察院調查權在國外他其實本來也就是可以各自都會有行可以就是獨立行使的對你們也反對啊那看但是真的這個調查權全部都讓你們去做你們也沒有做得很好所以我認為說其實出國經費還是要依照就是這個公務的需求而且基於經費尊潔的原則的話應該要刪除謝謝"},{"start":3005.738,"end":3030.189,"text":"還是說中召委講完然後再請機關一併回覆是的剛剛聽到我們提案委員的垂詢也聽到機關代表的回覆關於國外旅費這個事情歷年來立法院的審查都是列入重點所以我非常認同有委員針對機關的國外旅費我們強加的考核"},{"start":3031.608,"end":3045.474,"text":"但是我剛剛聽到提案委員在提到說監察院應該用力的去查社會上的一些弊案還包括說不曉得是指哪一個案子有接受性招待的這樣的案子"},{"start":3046.445,"end":3068.289,"text":"那如果按照剛剛委員的詢問跟要求這樣的邏輯要查什麼案子那就要去針對那個案子的屬性去進行國外的考察那如果有提案有接受到檢舉說有涉及到官員涉及到性招待那是否國外旅費就要去考察阿姆斯坦的紅燈區我覺得這個邏輯可能要釐清一下"},{"start":3072.19,"end":3098.536,"text":"因此我首先要接下來要請我們機關代表逐一的就剛剛的交換意見當中逐一的來釐清第一剛剛提到也生動於保育監察案偵查院受理到相關的案件相關的不管糾談案有32件那具體的內容是什麼第二監察院有沒有受理到"},{"start":3100.275,"end":3123.104,"text":"檢舉官員接受性招待或其他社會上所謂的矚目的弊案那你們怎麼進行相關必要資料的收集跟一些實況的掌握第三你們如果說因為國內的生態保育有許多的檢舉案但是你們要為了掌握實情譬如說就我所知"},{"start":3124.451,"end":3129.438,"text":"目前保育團體對於在原鄉部分的狩獵的獸甲"},{"start":3131.516,"end":3154.55,"text":"被認為這是對於動物保護是有侵犯的但是也有原住民團體認為這是基於原住民的既有的風俗他們特定的方法他們維持傳統以來研習的習俗那所以到底監察院受理的相關為師的案件他在實況上怎麼運作"},{"start":3156.343,"end":3163.267,"text":"要如何進行考察那麼我的第三點就是說那是哪些人因為受理了這些相關的案件因此他必須要去做相關應國外經驗的瞭解是所謂的考察的職員是所謂的調查官、調查員"},{"start":3177.077,"end":3192.803,"text":"而這些調查官、調查員他們平常在我們監察院受理的相關糾談案當中他們所扮演的角色跟執掌他們要負責收集到什麼樣的資料來提供給監察委員立案調查監察委員去進行調查這是第三點"},{"start":3193.883,"end":3199.95,"text":"第4點,剛剛提到我們科目當中國外旅會的112萬4千元這其實是兩個項目一個是包括我們監察院剛剛機關代表所說的這是因為要促進提升"},{"start":3209.281,"end":3227.533,"text":"我們調查人員他們對於相關糾談案他們的市政的一些掌握但是也包括了首長他們其他出席國際會議聽起來好像剛剛聽到這個部分的需要那是不是能夠就這四點分別的語語說明我要不要再從這邊1234點能不能請說明謝謝我覺得周委員講得非常好"},{"start":3237.987,"end":3258.907,"text":"但中委員講的所有的好都建議在一個基礎之上就是監察院不是廢物那你的講的都有基礎給你這麼多預算監察院到現在讓大家滿意嗎我跟大家講有一種廢叫做廢的理直氣壯叫做廢的坐領高薪叫做廢的樂觀東廠"},{"start":3261.593,"end":3288.546,"text":"所以我說實在話今天監察院的廢還不是羅志強認證的阿民進黨都說監察院要廢阿李靜玉你也說監察院要廢阿然後包括陳菊都說監察院要廢阿你們很努力的廢監察院但你們很努力的拿監察院的薪水阿拿薪水拿得臉不紅氣不喘其他單位的國外的考察"},{"start":3289.912,"end":3306.099,"text":"我們今天在審的時候就是當用則用對不對當審則審但是我看不出監察院今天給你我們周委員客氣啦我的提案是全三啦你既然那麼廢給你預算幹什麼都是人民納稅錢辛辛苦苦的錢剛剛講性糟糕就陳宗彥老直接講啊"},{"start":3317.335,"end":3319.497,"text":"你監察院交出審計單有讓人家滿意嗎?你監察院變成護航院就算了,你的高雄城是不是通常代表?"},{"start":3326.496,"end":3327.036,"text":"王委員"},{"start":3351.721,"end":3372.452,"text":"我剛剛講的就是陳忠彥如果說是中委員你不知道我在說誰的話就是行政院前發言人陳忠彥遭控接受性招待監察院彈劾不成立你說要這樣子的話是不是監察院要去考察荷蘭的紅燈區"},{"start":3374.98,"end":3403.9,"text":"我有這麼說嗎 對不對你要去考慮一下如果是這樣的話那應該是到荷蘭去看看人家怎麼樣去檢查什麼去這個調查類似像這樣子的政府官員我告訴你啦如果說今天監察院說是要到北海道長野然後去了解人雄共處不用跑那麼遠你到中山大學你就可以去實際上去了解人猴共處是怎麼樣一回事還要跑到長野去了解人雄共處"},{"start":3405.517,"end":3424.286,"text":"這個實在是沒有那個必要性而且這跟你們監察院的這個職權就縱使有關也不需要花人民的納稅錢然後跑到這麼遠去了解人雄共處你們實際上是有跟雄豬在一起嗎對不對這不需要這樣子做然後再加上你們現在有些這個就像我剛說的你們編了一些國外的這個出國考察回來的報告寫的也不清不楚看起來就是沒有那個必要性啊所以刪減"},{"start":3433.666,"end":3434.708,"text":"我還算客氣的待會的話我們還可以再看其他的項目其實有很多地方是應該該刪的"},{"start":3445.199,"end":3467.592,"text":"好,那我們麻煩機關代表說明好,謝謝主席主席剛剛一開始就交代我們是依照案號依照項目刪除的科目來說明那溫委員的提案是指國外旅費那剛剛我回答溫委員的是指國外旅費其實編列在三個不同的項目裡面所以用國外旅費這樣子我必須詳細的說明"},{"start":3469.453,"end":3490.742,"text":"第一個有關黑熊中熊這個問題我們已經談過很多次了那我說明的是我們的我們的我們的同仁認為說這個部分這個議題確實比較嚴重那所以他們希望去日本學習那這個包括北海道跟長野那如果委員認為有爭議我剛剛一開始我也說那這一項我們就拿掉31萬"},{"start":3494.884,"end":3511.982,"text":"第2個部分就是有關剛剛提到的這個所謂的這個接受性招待有沒有彈劾這個其實跟國外旅費一點關係都沒有那我跟溫委員報告如果你說的是接受性招待那我們總共有3個案子有3個案子"},{"start":3513.684,"end":3522.651,"text":"一個案子是這個台南津巴局的陳凱琳這個已經彈劾了另外是在這個禮拜才彈劾的這個營建署的組長這個也彈劾了那另外有關你說陳宗彥案陳宗彥案是用A案的內容作為B案的證據所以在法律上我們沒有辦法同意所以彈劾不通過這非常懸殊的筆述彈劾不通過不通過以後我們請台南地檢署針對這件事情重啟調查"},{"start":3543.326,"end":3560.067,"text":"台南地檢署後來也起訴陳忠彥,這個案子還在我們監察院的調查範圍當中,所以並沒有不處理。您剛剛講的是國外履備的部分,所以我針對國外履備的部分清楚地跟您報告。其他的我們依照"},{"start":3561.849,"end":3588.105,"text":"案號的順序我們再一一的說明那國外旅費我還是要強調除了剛剛所講的這個職員出國以外另外最重要的是國際會議的參與國際會議的參與我們這個每年固定參與的就是IOI APPLE跟FEEL的年會那FEEL在今年好不容易我們爭取到正式的會員正式的會員那所以這個部分還是必須去參加的這是國外旅費所以我們請委員在家考慮以上謝謝"},{"start":3593.293,"end":3605.263,"text":"請問一下機關的部分按照第一項翁小林所提出來的檢列及凍結500萬元這個部分不知道機關有什麼建議什麼想法"},{"start":3607.18,"end":3629.988,"text":"如果是指國外履備的話我們三個項目加起來總共三個科目總共加起來是1296萬那我剛剛已經說得很清楚了這個職員的部分315000我們就拿掉那其他的部分包括我們的議事業務包括我們的調查巡查我們委員出國是沒有出去玩的我們委員出國是要做通案性調查的"},{"start":3632.17,"end":3642.583,"text":"總共1296的出國費用加起來三個項目的話我們可不可以建議說包括人權會的部分整個刪除兩百萬"},{"start":3649.864,"end":3676.519,"text":"之前我們委員會在進行預算審查的時候關於國外旅費的部分大概有各式各樣的意見跟見解有鑑於過去我們在院會處理之前大概類似有些共通性的費用會通案的去做處理我是建議關於國外旅費的審查我們是建議交院會協商以通案原則處理"},{"start":3680.832,"end":3681.832,"text":"黃委員還是翁委員黃委員"},{"start":3707.239,"end":3729.266,"text":"因為現在只有在處理國外旅費的部分所以台灣民眾黨黨團針對有關於監察院整體預算我們處理的原則我到下一案的時候再來進行說明第二點針對提案委員的提案我們是尊重但尊重歸尊重台灣民眾黨黨團我們有自己的提案全三"},{"start":3730.495,"end":3746.867,"text":"立場非常清楚全三要這裡處理也可以不要這裡處理要到院會處理也可以但我們不會同意把監察院跟其他機關做通案性的處理這一點我覺得立場要表明清楚"},{"start":3747.929,"end":3760.93,"text":"民進黨黨團希望通案處理我尊重民進黨黨團他們的政策立場台灣民眾黨黨團是絕對不可能把監察院的預算就出國的事情跟其他的行政機關"},{"start":3762.793,"end":3781.925,"text":"通案處理這也是我們的政策立場那最後針對過去啊出國考察實際上面的效果如何報告在監察院上面相關的網站有所有的公民大家都可以上去看都可以形成自己的評價"},{"start":3783.266,"end":3806.963,"text":"如果公民上去看監察院的報告看了說我們這些監委陸力重工出國考察行程滿滿回來收穫滿滿立法院刪除我們這些監察院的院長副院長監察委員出國考察的費用是立法院不對那我們今天提案刪除"},{"start":3807.924,"end":3834.892,"text":"出國考察費用的立法委員我們自然要接受民意的檢驗我們自然要承擔政治責任這本來就是民主政治的常軌嘛那最後一個是說內容太多了啦說監委出去沒有出去玩的我真的不曉得怎麼吐槽啊多得不得了啊我隨便舉一個啊"},{"start":3836.741,"end":3861.859,"text":"2024年4月監委蔡崇義等人去澳洲考察國家人權機構有兩天跑去參觀坎培拉市區跟文化景點去參觀坎培拉市區跟文化景點是要呼吸坎培拉的空氣要參觀文化景點才可以冷靜的讓頭腦知道要如何增進臺灣的人權狀況"},{"start":3864.926,"end":3875.274,"text":"參觀雪梨市區及文化景點要到雪梨市區去呼吸雪梨的空氣參觀文化景點才知道要怎麼促進我們國家人權的業務"},{"start":3879.725,"end":3905.56,"text":"荒謬至極所以我再重申台灣民眾黨黨團的立場其他委員的提案我們尊重有委員說要通案處理我尊重其他黨團的意見表達台灣民眾黨黨團針對有關於監察院預算整體的原則我到下一案是我們提案的時候我再綜合說明不過針對出國考察的這個"},{"start":3908.003,"end":3914.414,"text":"項目向下,台灣民眾黨黨團所抱持的立場是全部刪除。以上"},{"start":3921.872,"end":3945.344,"text":"主席因為本來我們也都是就提案順序來做處理來做討論那不過呢在剛剛那個國外旅會的部分呢已經有其他黨人的代表提及到他們通案的原則我記得通案原則是就國外旅費在立法院預算審議的慣例但是剛剛有代表有其他黨人委員提到說就整個監察院的獨特性"},{"start":3946.164,"end":3966.237,"text":"他們是主張要全三那這樣的一個立場我們也尊重因為各黨團過去對於監察院的立場如何其實社會都舉目昭昭大家都很清楚有沒有實際的去推動廢除監察院所必要的修憲的作為過去也歷歷在目那如果我絲毫沒有去推動"},{"start":3967.397,"end":3988.846,"text":"廢除監察院的作為現在只摘其他政黨的政策主張然後呢說主張廢監察院的沒有去刪監察院的預算不主張廢監察院的主張要刪監察院預算這樣的邏輯是非常的可笑必須當你要求別人要邏輯一致的時候先檢討自己的邏輯是不是一致"},{"start":3989.426,"end":4005.838,"text":"接下來我就就這樣的一個政黨的立場來對監察院的預算審查立場已經預作表錄了不用到下一案這一案我們就可以來做一個整體的審視首先監察院剛剛有一個案子通過了叫做稅入部分稅入部分"},{"start":4007.545,"end":4018.251,"text":"認為監察院一無四處的委員或政黨完全沒有提出提案完全沒有提出我們看看監察院的稅率多少監察院的稅率編了2650萬其中包括違反公職人員財產申報法公職人員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":4025.655,"end":4041.149,"text":"政治獻金法遊說法的規定他們預期有罰還的收入每案30萬元乘以30個案公職人員利充法每案20萬元預計有27案政治獻金法每案有10萬元預計是120萬遊說法是編列了10萬"},{"start":4044.565,"end":4067.082,"text":"好了我們就看到了監察院從憲政機關的立場來講我們認為臺灣未來的國家分權應該是三權或是五權不用再說但是在沒有完成修憲的程序之前憲法機關的存在根據釋字的解釋基於憲法忠誠的義務我們必須尊重他既有憲法職權的行使"},{"start":4067.702,"end":4094.997,"text":"目前監察院還沒有廢止之前．中華民國還不能走上三權分立之前．監察院目前在做的事情．就包含了剛剛他的稅路項目．這些公職財產申報．公職人員的利充．政治獻金、遊說法那如果大家認為．因為主宰要廢監察院．所以這些事項監察院就不用做了關於金華城當中有沒有涉及到政治獻金的問題．有沒有涉及到公務人員利充的問題．"},{"start":4096.702,"end":4122.094,"text":"這些還有財產申報的問題那這些是否我們同意監察院繼續維持他對這方面的職權行使呢顯然的如果用剛剛的邏輯來講關於稅務的提案部分完全沒有政黨提出質疑表示監察院目前在下年度應該合宜的在他的憲法機關的一個定位之下在現有的各項的法律的依準之下"},{"start":4122.614,"end":4148.988,"text":"在這些法律、憲法沒有變更之前．他就必須依照他憲法忠誠．基於憲政的職權．憲法的職權．法定的義務．憲法的義務．法定的職權．他去對於這些公職人員財產申報．公職人員利益衝突．政治獻金等等的法律．他去執行．這是國家能夠維持常態運作的方法．那既然在稅路的部分．都不主張監察院不要去做這些事情．"},{"start":4149.528,"end":4170.536,"text":"都不主張監察院不用去管財產申報法不用去管利沖法不用去管政治獻金法那麼表示目前監察院正在進行中的包括金華城等相關的政治弊案政治獻金都應該要進其他的法定職責去進行執行對於明年度可能因為進行這個職選有相關的收入都應該要以認列"},{"start":4172.037,"end":4197.411,"text":"那麼我不曉得其他的政黨口口聲聲說要廢除監察院要刪掉他所有的職權預算那你稅率預算刪了沒啊人的發言啊政黨的立場啊要前後一致邏輯一致啊那至於呢我看看監察院代表在回應之前的我也說明一下我相信在座的不法委員跟公務人員都有出國可能都有參與出國考察的經驗"},{"start":4199.242,"end":4224.441,"text":"臺灣是週休二日我們的公務考察也是在對方的上班時間週一到週五去進行考察如果我們在星期六日去考察人家的國會你就跟一般觀光客一樣只能順著導覽人員去晃兩圈但是如果你要做官司拜訪必然的是在週一到週五尊重對方的上班日期有些國家不是週休二日有些國家不是週六跟週日"},{"start":4226.883,"end":4253.02,"text":"如果真的有認真去做你到馬來西亞你到伊斯蘭教的國家他們的休息日不是西方世界的週六或週日你必須遵照人家宗教的規定在人家的安息時間不得去打擾在這種情況之下各種的考察的行程必須因應我們考察當地的風俗習慣跟法律的規定我們去進行考察那麼如果一個考察跨越了一週以上七天的時間"},{"start":4254.241,"end":4275.214,"text":"可能就會遇到這些無法進行公視拜訪的日程那麼也不要忘了考察的人員他如果在國內工作上班他也是有他的利休所以一個國外的考察我們要求的是工廠要花在刀口上考察人員必須在他領受工廠近期義務的時候去完成他該計劃項目的責任"},{"start":4279.016,"end":4300.018,"text":"但是我們不會要求你理能工廠出國考察你在飛機上不能睡覺你在旅館裡面不能休息你在別人的週末假日你要進行機關的探視去看人家門窗鎖好了嗎是這樣的意思嗎我是覺得這個部分也是覺得小小的一個疑問如果真的有做出國考察的人員"},{"start":4300.638,"end":4311.288,"text":"都應該去看一下出國考察的內容的安排為時的來看待這件事情所以本期還是建議這個國外履歷的部分我們保留送協商羅委員先舉手他剛剛就舉手了我跟你講我真的不能再認同鍾嘉賓更多了講得太好了我覺得非常感動"},{"start":4327.148,"end":4346.686,"text":"民進黨現在有一個修憲提案叫做廢除監察院 鄭嘉賓啊 隨便啦 你們就提啊 你們陳亭飛有提 你們測案了嗎 我不知道 我沒跟上進度陳亭飛有提啊 有測案了嗎 陳亭飛提了修憲案測案了嗎 廢除監察院的"},{"start":4348.589,"end":4375.38,"text":"不用擔心 你們聯署絕對夠我今天在這邊 我跟宗家斌保證 我不管今天國民黨立場是什麼你只要 宗家斌你提案 提修憲案 廢監察院 我就這樣通你一票我就通你一票 廢就沒關係 我幫你拉票你提出來啊 宗家斌你是稍微提出來 黃國昌也署張廢啊 沒錯吧對不對 民眾黨八票啊 羅志強一票啊 我再幫你拉票"},{"start":4376.42,"end":4392.849,"text":"我在努力幫你拉票 你們民進黨做個示範啦 你看說回去嘛我跟你講 你是司法的召委 你們民進黨有修憲的提案躺在立法院還跟我騙屆期不連續趁聽飛的跑下去死掉啦"},{"start":4393.929,"end":4416.206,"text":"陳婷菲這屆提的陳婷菲這屆提的阿沒有關係阿我跟你講我就說我認同你嘛嘉賓秀我這麼認同你你應該謝謝我阿你當詐偽你當詐偽真的我建議你趕快排案我跟你講我唯一我唯一一個齁我唯一他詐不答應他的事阿他已經講了副總都要同意就OK阿副總都同意都同意沒關係來來來沒關係我們OK阿我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦"},{"start":4423.303,"end":4439.351,"text":"三票 三票 提出來現場賺3加81一票對不對 沒問題啦我跟你講今天羅志強我就宣誓效忠民進黨好不好民進黨提大廚健康休憩給同一票"},{"start":4444.938,"end":4462.526,"text":"主主席我可以被擋計除非也沒關係我坦然接受我今天就是支持民進黨的廢除監察院修憲案好了第二點我要跟你講我唯一一個主張請宗家兵參考沒關係沒關係待會你回應請宗家兵參考一下我的主張更進一步"},{"start":4464.249,"end":4472.014,"text":"修憲案這麼重大的事照民進黨過去的標準要並2026年大選並2026年大選時程控制我只有這個要求民進黨不要到時候提一個修憲案在一個冷瘦瘦的天突然丟出去了"},{"start":4482.503,"end":4504.379,"text":"我只有這個主張小小的一個修正建議給我們宗嘉賓偉大宗嘉賓第二個我跟你講我第二個認同你的是什麼你剛才已經講了標準嘛主張廢除的人你就可以砍預算啊我就是啊我主張廢除努力砍啊可是你另外什麼你說你說什麼你說你說你說主張廢的不刪預算然後沒主張廢的刪預算"},{"start":4511.448,"end":4528.038,"text":"其中一個就是你們啊民進黨你們要主張廢了倒是不肯刪預算啊國民黨目前為止態度是國民黨的態度我羅志祥說過了我就是認為監察院該廢所以今天貫徹民進黨幫你預先把監察院廢掉刪他的預算所以今天刪預算很簡單啦大家好好看看嘛監察院跡象能看嗎監察院存在目的監督政府"},{"start":4541.903,"end":4570.365,"text":"這8年這監察院昏睡死裝瞎他不監督政府就算了我們國會改革提了監督政府的一個職能強化監察反對欸自己廢不行還要讓別人也一起廢自己不監督政府還讓別人也不能監督政府那接下來我要再回應有一點就不認同我們中召委啦我跟你講你說怎麼用通案來處理不要把別的機關拖下水好不好"},{"start":4571.049,"end":4591.016,"text":"我覺得法務部很棒阿對不對我覺得考試院也不錯阿對不對我覺得行政院很多機關也表現很好阿你為什麼把別的機關跟監察院一樣變廢物通案處理人家沒監察院這麼廢阿所以我們審預算的時候今天為什麼監察院砍得特別兇我們沒有對別的單位是這樣只有對監察院這樣因為就你廢嘛還是在重申民進黨的明年阿民進黨"},{"start":4598.664,"end":4624.656,"text":"講到監察院一個字結束了 廢陳菊講到監察院一個字結束了 廢李菊講到監察院一個字結束了 廢廢廢廢 通通要廢然後薪水你滿滿對不對 出國爽飽飽這就是監察院嗎所以莊嘉賓請你今天我們統一陣線喔擁戴莊嘉賓張美提案提出修憲案我們討論現場賺國民黨3票恭喜你"},{"start":4628.8,"end":4629.541,"text":"欸那個是剛剛先黃委員黃委員你剛剛有舉手"},{"start":4634.291,"end":4661.589,"text":"對黃委員那個本來是要按照提案來討論嘛那不過剛剛鍾嘉斌委員有指教他要跳到更高的層次來討論那也沒有關係我們就跳到更高的層次來討論嘛我先表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場啊廢除監察院就是我們的主張廢除監察院就是我們的主張"},{"start":4663.345,"end":4663.565,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":4676.946,"end":4706.004,"text":"所以我們現在迫於無奈在監察院還沒有完全廢止之前我們只能夠在預算上面清楚忠實的反映我們的政策立場我們只能在預算上面清楚忠實的反映我們的政策立場我們絕對不會像民主進步黨一樣民主進步黨是高喊要廢除監察院廢了幾十年了"},{"start":4707.503,"end":4736.709,"text":"在幾十年啊現在的監察院院長陳菊當初喊要廢監察院喊得最大聲的發現有監察院院長可以當啊嚮得不得了啊很無奈啊迫於無奈啊非常的勉強去勸喊了他以前所要主張廢除的監察院院長說他希望啊他是最後一任"},{"start":4737.904,"end":4743.326,"text":"我們看民進黨過去這幾年對於監察院的處理怎麼會是最後一任監察院院長這麼香有這麼多人可以愁憂愁憂拿來做什麼愁憂拿來當打手啊當東廠啊遇到自己的人軟趴的"},{"start":4760.765,"end":4787.827,"text":"我為什麼說遇到自己人軟趴趴啊剛剛我們六席的秘書長講得很好啊有三個涉及性招待的啊有兩個被處理啊有一個沒有被處理啊那為什麼那兩個被處理關不夠大嘛小偉的嘛我們陳忠彥是當過行政院的發言人欸這麼重要的位置跟在我們民進黨中央權貴旁邊的陳忠彥"},{"start":4789.708,"end":4801.99,"text":"這一種大尾的怎麼可以彈劾啊他票數非常的高啊彈劾不成立啊這一種打小官不敢處理大尾的"},{"start":4803.207,"end":4821.272,"text":"監察院長期以來就是打蒼蠅不敢打老虎當初民進黨的立委都是這樣子看的他們都是這樣主張的等到自己全面控制了監察院以後更是把這樣的精神貫徹的淋漓盡致為什麼說把這樣的精神貫徹的淋漓盡致在我國"},{"start":4827.625,"end":4853.48,"text":"高官有去關說司法的邱泰山阿絕對是數一數二阿當過法務部部長的邱泰山公然去關說司法遇到我們民進黨的監察院沒事沒事沒事沒事邱泰山關說司法這件事情連他們自己高檢署所出來的行政調查報告都認定阿"},{"start":4855.021,"end":4871.44,"text":"認定到那個彭坤彥自己都不好意思再繼續待在桃園地檢署當任檢察長自己趕快退休不完了只有我們的邱泰山經過了監察院當他洗白了以後"},{"start":4872.581,"end":4878.063,"text":"認定關說司法彈劾沒有通過馬上華麗轉身說監察院幫我背書我邱泰山沒有關說司法然後繼續出任民進黨內閣閣員當上陸委會主委"},{"start":4891.71,"end":4919.836,"text":"所以我說我們的監察院啊不僅僅是養老院啊不僅僅是廢物院啊它還是東廠院啊還是打手院啊還是護航院啊剛剛中委員說欸那我們稅務的時候主張廢監察院的這些黨團怎麼沒有提案要刪剛剛莊嘉斌自己就已經回答了問題了嘛因為這個就是他既有憲法的職權啊"},{"start":4921.317,"end":4941.86,"text":"是他既有憲法的職權啊 現在既有憲法的職權 那請問他稅務的部分只有他可以罰 只有他可以罰 那要怎麼刪 這非常簡單的道理嘛 那我們就一樣一樣來講嘛 出國考察是監察院既有的憲法職權嗎 出國考察是監察院既有的職權嗎"},{"start":4944.907,"end":4962.857,"text":"這不是太可笑了嗎我們為什麼去貫徹我們在監察院裡面我說了在廢監察院以前有一些東西我們就沒有辦法做處理嘛台灣民眾黨黨團我們針對有關於監察院財產申報業務費用795萬8千元我們一塊都沒有算"},{"start":4973.669,"end":5001.237,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團針對監察院內部財產申報業務費用795萬8千元我們一塊錢通通都沒有刪通通都沒有刪那沒有辦法現在掛在監察院下面就讓他們去做財產的申報業務嘛這個是他的法定職權所以這件事情我們動通通都沒有動"},{"start":5002.515,"end":5020.665,"text":"至於說什麼政治獻金啊財產申報啊要讓監察院做 對啊但我們看監察院做的是什麼監察院做的是遇到綠營自家人就軟趴趴嘛我為什麼說遇到綠營自家人就軟趴趴陳歐珀跟蔡英文兩個人2020年"},{"start":5027.19,"end":5032.873,"text":"在伊蘭聯合的競選後援會那是不是無償供給的當然是無償供給的嘛"},{"start":5054.517,"end":5083.245,"text":"那請問現在監察院處理到什麼地方了?請問監察院處理到什麼地方了?雙標的這麼嚴重我們提案就有關於刪除監察院有關於刪除監察院是有一條線我們知道要貫徹政策立場我們就是什麼?在我們推動修憲廢除監察院成功以前"},{"start":5084.212,"end":5104.739,"text":"沒有必要的費用全部都刪除沒有必要的費用全部都刪除我們絕對不會像民主進步黨一樣嘴巴上面喊說要廢除監察院身體很誠實坐在這邊捍衛監察院的預算連出國考察的時候"},{"start":5106.452,"end":5132.337,"text":"為了要去幫監察院護航連什麼在旅館不能睡覺連在飛機上不能休息這種荒謬的言詞通通拿出來當護航的藉口民進黨對監察院的態度到底是什麼是不是之前說要廢後來發現監察院香的不得了除了政府院長秘書長還有一堆監委"},{"start":5135.362,"end":5138.123,"text":"全部可以拿來當籌擁的工具那現實上呢現實上在遇到監察院實際的運算的時候在這邊捍衛的這麼大聲喔監察院過去的辦案是真的有打老虎有真的辦到"},{"start":5161.035,"end":5189.171,"text":"民進黨自己的高官權貴還是打小力做做樣子全台灣人民心裡都有一個清楚的評價都有一個清楚的評價我再說一次台灣民眾黨黨團我們針對有關於監察院總體的預算人事費我們沒有刪我為什麼沒有刪人事費沒有辦法法定義務支出阿"},{"start":5190.916,"end":5214.604,"text":"你該給人家的錢這是人家的薪水啊人家的薪水你要怎麼算那但是我們雖然就這個部分沒有提但如果有委員提出來要刪除監察院院長的特資費我支持啊我絕對支持啊第二個財產申報業務的費用795萬8千元"},{"start":5219.264,"end":5227.549,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團沒有刪股金維護1454萬元沒有刪這個是我們展現出來的這是我們展現出來的政策立場我最後要呼籲一件事啦民進黨喊修憲要廢除監察院不要打假球啦不要打假球啦"},{"start":5249.844,"end":5251.886,"text":"我相信台灣社會看得很清楚"},{"start":5281.082,"end":5300.555,"text":"所以剛剛的發言已經充分的展現出雙標黨的標準可能不能說雙標黨其實台灣民眾黨還蠻一致的是從不同的政黨轉換角度轉換軌道的人比較不一致所以我這要提醒一下台灣民眾黨的確在2021年有提出了修憲提案"},{"start":5301.598,"end":5312.748,"text":"他們提出的修宣提案我幫那時候不在臺灣民眾黨還來不及加入臺灣民眾黨的委員復習一下一共當時的總召修宣員提出為什麼我記得因為第10屆的時候"},{"start":5315.526,"end":5342.883,"text":"民進黨也提出了修憲提案那時候民眾黨的提案包含了四個重點第一個人權路線第二個降低修憲門檻跟公民提案的門檻第三廢考監第四將選舉的並立制改為連立制如果有人要臨時加入某個政黨先看一看那個政黨在他不當立法委員的時候有過哪些主張這樣發言才不至於雙標"},{"start":5344.184,"end":5358.181,"text":"台灣民眾黨的確支持過修憲提案要廢考監當時第10屆的民進黨也是如此支持但是剛剛離席的國民黨的代表是不支持的"},{"start":5359.278,"end":5378.664,"text":"因為在第9、第10屆的時候我們好不容易能夠成立了修憲委員會修憲委員會三黨的代表都有也都分別推了召集委員本席在當時的第10屆也是修憲委員會的召集委員我們很認真的排了各項的公聽會"},{"start":5379.924,"end":5387.613,"text":"但是到最後當時的國民黨主席號令之下國民黨只支持同意或者說不反對18歲公民權路線"},{"start":5392.336,"end":5410.376,"text":"這個提案也不在當時的台灣民眾黨的提案當中但是他們後來也同意不反對但是實況上我們看到了由於修憲的門檻太高因此唯一能夠通過立法院三黨當時的台灣民眾黨中國國民黨跟"},{"start":5412.699,"end":5430.254,"text":"民進黨所成立的修憲委員會當中只有18歲公民權成案能夠送交公民投票去做決定那當時投票的結果很清楚當時投票的結果很清楚我們看到了"},{"start":5432.186,"end":5460.575,"text":"這個修憲在公民投票的時候跟當時民進黨和國民黨候選人該次選舉的候選人的得票是若和伏結的換言之當時支持18歲公民權提案的公民投票數跟該選區民進黨候選人的得票數相距非常的接近那顯見什麼顯見不反對不杯葛18歲公民權的中國國民黨"},{"start":5462.885,"end":5490.63,"text":"並不支持他們不反對的18歲公民權路線但是由於國民黨的反對費考監的提案在第10屆的修憲委員會並無法通過所以不要嘴巴講也不要在這邊宣傳主張拿出行動來我們看一看修憲的確是一個高門檻的工程我非常認同剛剛發言委員說修憲門檻太高了所以當年的台灣民眾黨是主張要降低修憲門檻"},{"start":5492.11,"end":5519.338,"text":"當時我擔任修憲委員會的召集委員我主持了公聽會我們也有很多選手參加呼應了應該降低修憲門檻但是很可惜的當時國民黨不支持所以沒有辦法通過歷史是永遠存在那裡的不會因為你雙標你刻意的忽略只提一些五四三的它就不存在那至於時代力量在第九屆的時候因為那個時候立法院沒有辦法成立修憲委員會"},{"start":5520.598,"end":5538.672,"text":"所以第9屆很可惜不曉得知道．無法知道當時的時代力量的幾位委員．包括在場當年的黃委員是否支持修憲．他們的修憲主張為何在立法院沒有正式的關係文書可知考察我就不敢隨便講因為"},{"start":5540.977,"end":5567.268,"text":"當任立法委員在立法院運用言論免責權做出各種不負責任的主張所在多有至於不擔任立法委員在其他的場合他是否指摘他在任命所陳述的各些弊案我覺得這個每次我們在立法院裡面總是要聽到很多委員善用言論免責權將過去在不擔任立法委員不敢拿出來講的不敢拿出來指摘的"},{"start":5567.668,"end":5568.048,"text":"對於這樣的雙標行為我們深感不解"},{"start":5588.803,"end":5608.99,"text":"也不認同但是我要提醒的如果台灣民眾黨願意誠懇的沿襲他們在第10屆的黨團立場那這四項路要繼續延續包括人權路線包括降低公民提案及修憲門檻包括廢考監那至於年曆改病曆病曆改年曆這個都可以討論我們非常樂見透過黨團的決議方式來正式的推動修憲委員會"},{"start":5616.852,"end":5643.321,"text":"而這個修憲委員會各黨團重要的為什麼第10屆可以成立修憲委員會因為當時的游錫堃院長非常積極的去召集朝野協商來推動可是反過來我們看到目前我們的韓國院長你去問他陳如跟剛剛羅委員一樣的你中嘉賓中召委你司法法制的召委你排案啊你提案啊抱歉啊修憲委員會是特種委員會啊"},{"start":5644.69,"end":5668.543,"text":"根據立法院各委員會組織法還有根據立法院組織法他是必須要經過院長召集草野協商來成立的特種委員會這個特種委員會在立法院過去第9屆都沒有辦法成立只有第10屆推動成立了如果今天為了預算的審查口口聲聲說尤其是剛剛羅委員的指教剛剛我是說你的邏輯主張廢監察院的就應該刪預算"},{"start":5670.014,"end":5692.551,"text":"要保留預算的要支持預算的你就等於是反對廢棄監察院這個邏輯口屁不通因為不是看你的主張是看你的作為民進黨過去持續的在推動三權分立的中華民國憲法台灣的體制但是得不到其他政黨的支持之下更正第10屆有得到當時台灣民眾黨的支持"},{"start":5693.581,"end":5720.509,"text":"但是國民黨不支持所以最後送到修憲委員會通出的送出的修憲提案這一個提案就是18歲公民權路線這些歷史都記載在關心文書當中不是現在在場的委員信口雌黃可以抹煞的所以如果國民黨的委員希望讓你們刪除監察院的預算來表彰你們反對你們要求廢除監察院的立場很好"},{"start":5721.958,"end":5736.419,"text":"事情有先後順序先後順序就在剛剛黃偉的發言當中黃偉怎麼說因為監察院還在啊他法定職權還在啊監察院主管的不是只有政治先進法不是只有公職人員參審申報法還有監察法"},{"start":5738.872,"end":5757.147,"text":"這些法定的職權還有憲法裡面的職權 糾談糾正糾舉彈劾這些根據憲法的相關條文規定必須由監察院的監察委員以合議的方式去開會那獨立調查合議開會做成決議"},{"start":5759.248,"end":5781.044,"text":"這些議事的預算就編列在我們的討論今天的討論提案的下一個提案當中我就很佩服居然可以說在稅路的部分監察院的這些稅路不刪除是因為監察院還有公職人員財產申報法還有政治獻金法必須依法執法依法執法就依法的收入"},{"start":5781.744,"end":5795.898,"text":"一法執法就一法的支出所以收入的部分稅率部分會支持稅數的部分也會支持那我們就希望未來待會的審查只要現在監察院還沒有達成三黨朝野共識成立修憲會來推動費考監之前那麼請大家繼續憲法忠誠"},{"start":5800.502,"end":5823.044,"text":"對於監察院現在依法行使的支權所必要的預算我們何時再來審查所謂的全部刪除這些預算你說糾正的糾舉的彈劾的這些預算請監察院如果細分他們做哪些事情用哪些錢哪些不是監察院法定職場的"},{"start":5824.145,"end":5844.636,"text":"此行為我們是可以預算刪除的哪些才是哪些才保留別忘了在下一章我們就可以看到如果說因為要保障公務人員的這個現代保護員保障他的工作權所以呢他有法定的編制法定的緣額法定的預算這些人事為止會不刪除"},{"start":5845.296,"end":5862.459,"text":"但是你對於他行使這些人員他依法行使的職權的業務費用你全數刪除那剛好坐實了剛剛發言者自己的邏輯就是坐領薪水不辦事為什麼因為薪水不刪但是呢做事的錢都刪"},{"start":5864.444,"end":5874.777,"text":"現在我們按照這個邏輯去審查監察院的預算法定的機關緣額法定的人事預算通通保留 通通維持那麼這些人的薪水照發"},{"start":5876.158,"end":5903.05,"text":"但是他們要去進行任何監察權的糾舉調查對不起這些議事費用通通刪除那不就剛好做實了嘴巴說一套身體很誠實真正的行為讓監察院這些有公務人員依法保障身份的人員他是坐領薪水或者說坐領乾薪但是毫無其他依法的業務作為"},{"start":5904.826,"end":5930.078,"text":"我們待會在下一頁就可以看到了剛好我在等著有發言委員對於稅入案提出了他的寶貴見解依法職權的行為我們支持我們保持他的預算科目跟內容那接下來我們看一看哪些要刪除的預算不是依既有的法定職權所要做的事情我們等著一項一項來檢討"},{"start":5932.345,"end":5953.821,"text":"好等一下那個中稍微你立委做那麼久了這個薪水就不能刪啦這個你不懂嗎所以你講的東西不是啊他們當然是刪職權能刪的嘛我不懂我不懂我只懂法律的規定齁法律能刪的我們或能動的我們才能處理嘛阿不能處理的阿結果就是坐以擔心很簡單"},{"start":5957.939,"end":5958.259,"text":"吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":5986.185,"end":5991.649,"text":"我想說我就講幾個簡單的東西就好了啦就是監察院現在給我的感覺是這樣齁"},{"start":5994.602,"end":6024.002,"text":"我覺得你們剛有談到陳中彥的案子的時候對確實就沒有處理好嘛那從司法機關來看你那個陳起玉的案子你們去給人家干涉然後檢察官的團體建議檢改出來罵然後陳龍祥檢察官被談的是檢察官團體出來罵那難道那些檢察官們他們也是介入政治嗎他那個團體是跟政治完全無關的我們上一次去北檢視察他們都沒有出來罵結果出來罵的是誰政客跟側翼"},{"start":6025.143,"end":6046.762,"text":"然後還在那邊鬼扯什麼繼承檢察官大反彈就我們去問去看檢察官論壇根本沒有什麼人在談這個事情然後側翼就說檢察官繼承了大反彈啊到最後都鬼扯就是側翼配合的政客在那邊亂搞一通嘛但是真正被檢察官團體出來罵的事情這些政客跟側翼又不見了那監察院你今天如果你真的"},{"start":6047.623,"end":6064.703,"text":"有在做事 做福國利民的事情 我們當然支持嘛那你今天做的一些事情 我說真的 我不我跟你講 光是我聽到的一些事 或者是譬如說陳榮祥的案子 當時我就還在檢方啊 你們根本搞不清楚 既成假官多生氣啊"},{"start":6066.291,"end":6093.522,"text":"你們根本搞不清楚阿 其實非常非常生氣阿然後這次陳祺毅的案子大家也非常生氣結果呢好像也沒有這件事情然後陳仲彥的案子好像都完全傳過水無痕那我也在地方政府待過阿我在地方政府待的時候監察院對於某些縣市他的大小眼你以為基層的公務員看不懂嗎他對於一些"},{"start":6095.029,"end":6103.556,"text":"所以我不點出哪個特定的案子因為不是今天的主軸但是那個給人家感覺是監察院他在有一些人他"},{"start":6104.858,"end":6133.46,"text":"以前主張要廢除監察院但是他在取得這個權限之後呢他卻覺得超級好用超級好用之下他就越用越誇張其實不要以為人民看不懂不要以為司法官看不懂不要以為基層公務員看不懂其實大家都看在眼裡阿是誰把自己給玩爛了然後現在來說你不可以刪我什麼然後剛剛我在上面聽了我覺得聽了半天一頭霧水什麼時候我國的薪水可以由立法院刪掉"},{"start":6134.241,"end":6140.979,"text":"我真的聽不懂但是有一些執行業務上面像剛剛羅志強委員說的你今天如果說"},{"start":6142.281,"end":6167.617,"text":"不是只有做不好是還做壞事的時候那我讓你執行業務那對嗎執行越多幹越多壞事所以我還是這樣啦我還是支持一個點啦就是合理的刪我不要報復性的刪所以我們是合理的該刪就刪那你也請大家彼此尊重如果我認為我對監察院的印象是這樣我行使我立法委員的權限去做"},{"start":6169.138,"end":6190.694,"text":"我認為可以的刪除,那請還是要尊重我們齁好,以上好,那個秀岩好我請教秘書長者齁我們這個出國的經費齁"},{"start":6196.434,"end":6219.844,"text":"一千兩百多萬,平均一位委員是多少?這不是這樣算啦!我知道啦!我知道啦!就是說你把剩下剩下這部分提起來的委員平均你委員一年要開多少出國的經費?我們一八十四年,一一四年編的是一千兩百九十六萬全部加起來,包括職員,包括委員,包括政府院長。一千兩百多萬。幾年一位委員出國的部分開多少?"},{"start":6227.448,"end":6249.039,"text":"今年度比去年增加大概100多萬今年度就是113年度一個委員總共大概出國我們從來沒有這樣算吧他出去幾次嘛那整個一次禮費他報銷了多少錢我們沒有這樣變啦我們就是說出去參加國際會議還是一個委員有30萬沒有啦沒有啦沒有到30萬沒有啦有20萬沒有一個委員大概沒有超過5萬啦"},{"start":6255.846,"end":6269.677,"text":"一個委員只能處理一半而已?不一定,包括他要檢驗人權委員的可能處理比較一半通案訊號只有一次通案訊號只有一次,那個人權委員要看什麼樣的國際會議我講的很清楚你這個國外的陸委,我為什麼要提出這個呢?因為立法委員也一樣有國外考察的補助"},{"start":6284.11,"end":6297.799,"text":"一個人二十萬我今年就是專門來擔任的我沒有出國啊但我一天就沒報為什麼?因為我覺得我出去沒有考察我是去休閒我去休閒所以我回來一天我就不敢報我二十萬我一天就沒報為什麼?"},{"start":6308.14,"end":6316.042,"text":"我感覺這個國家要讓我們去審查的 我不再審查了 我回來也沒什麼報告啊 所以我不敢合宵啊 我個人啦 這是我個人 所以我認為刪掉是合理啊 但是你說總和你刪去沒處理交流 這是不合理啦 所以我支持 針對出國這個部分"},{"start":6332.967,"end":6341.476,"text":"王小林這個案5百萬是剛好而已啊山豬5百萬這是我最強在主張的啊啊如果要說中山我也沒有反對啊"},{"start":6345.066,"end":6363.199,"text":"但我不應該說因為我幫你中山你都參處理包括臨環科交流包括夾布科察都沒有我留一室的空間所以我個人經歷的資料三度五百萬但我現在再跟你說明我因為知道年底要幫你申請這個務職當時我幫你請教的時候我也是問你說"},{"start":6373.001,"end":6389.426,"text":"因為過去的主長、政體主長．到現在你來在這個單位．人不一樣的為地總是要面對．這個進步的接任．所以我的尊重你是必須長．你所屬所為．到你做立委的時期的主長．我不會拿那個來跟你說你現在要怎樣．但是我今天要跟你山東出國的經費的時候．我本身我先做"},{"start":6400.623,"end":6409.533,"text":"我對2月7日我就已經想起來在擔任了你可知道所以這是我個人共在主張這個500萬要刪除好那就麻煩機關出名"},{"start":6420.732,"end":6426.578,"text":"感謝財務委員．我代你報告一個．一人編20萬不用報告這我們都知道基本上我剛才說明很清楚兩項事情一項是出國費用 文委員建議要3.5萬會造成我們運作的困難"},{"start":6440.58,"end":6447.405,"text":"因為我剛才已經講過了參加國際會議交流這個部分都要我自己已經承諾說要不然我們先推200萬起來這我已經有做承諾了因為我們隆重所有的加起來才變一千兩百九十六萬所以我們推200萬起來這是比較合理的留一些讓我們有空運作第二部分主席我接受他的說明減50萬台幣850"},{"start":6468.571,"end":6474.833,"text":"這有困難啦老實說這有困難啦那個羅委員沒關係因為大概審到我是全三我反對啦黃委員謝謝主席喔剛剛聆聽了鍾嘉賓委員的高論為了要去護航監察院的預算然後把過去發生的一些什麼修憲的狀況都拿出來講沒有錯台灣民眾黨黨團我們從頭到尾就是要費考監"},{"start":6499.15,"end":6516.477,"text":"之前時代力量一樣抱持相同的看法阿第二個倒是專案兵委員在講到監察院的預算的時候可以扯到18歲公民權的投票率阿我也是看了探為觀止阿但當時什麼當時我們大家都站出來阿在街頭揭獎阿"},{"start":6518.16,"end":6542.071,"text":"支持18歲公民權只是我不太瞭解18歲公民權跟現在在廢考間有什麼關係至於說剛剛蔡委員提到說並立志改成連立志沒有錯這是台灣民眾黨黨團的主張我提醒一下這也是2016年蔡英文競選總統的時候她所提出來的主張但民進黨向來的個性是什麼"},{"start":6543.251,"end":6568.408,"text":"以前在野的時候所提到的主張國會的選制要從並立制改成聯立制等到自己什麼等到自己掌握權力了以後民進黨還要履行過去國會的選制從並立制改成聯立制嗎有嗎我什麼時候聽民進黨的委員在2016年以後說要從並立制改成聯立制"},{"start":6569.893,"end":6590.976,"text":"來看民進黨有同意並立志改成聯立志非常非常好履行你們過去的主張我們大家一起來推動我們大家一起來推動高中委員說不要嘴巴講然後身體很誠實我們什麼時候只有嘴巴講台灣民政黨要廢考監"},{"start":6593.302,"end":6620.207,"text":"我基本上記者會最少開了兩次我提案都開始簽了啊但現在什麼個別黨團沒有辦法提出修憲案嘛需要29位立委需要29位立委的連署所以我剛剛什麼剛剛我們把我們還沒有連署完的東西我請同仁送過來我特別感謝羅志祥委員啊我剛剛拿給他人家說一是一啊"},{"start":6621.229,"end":6638.036,"text":"他說他支持啊他馬上就簽啊所以中委員你要不要一起簽一下你要不要一起簽一下不要說嘴巴講一套身體很誠實嘛人家羅志強說他贊成我剛拿給他簽他馬上就簽啊那中央病委員請問你有要簽嗎中央病委員請問你有要簽嗎"},{"start":6646.752,"end":6673.425,"text":"沒有啦我現在在講我的話嘛對啊我老實講啦人家在講話的時候你什麼時候要回答我尊重你啊我只是講什麼啊你說不要說一套做一套嘛就千萬不要說一套做一套啊你要廢監察院非常好啊提案拿出來啊"},{"start":6674.571,"end":6703.98,"text":"提案拿出來嘛你如果說這個是現在上面這幾個委員的提案你不願意你要自己當主提案人沒有關係那你就當主提案人啊我們大家一起來簽嘛但還是回到今天要討論的議題嘛其實我講話喜歡就針對問題來回答但如果今天委員在發言的時候要講到18歲公民權要講到病歷改年歷那沒有辦法"},{"start":6705.595,"end":6728.387,"text":"我們只能什麼具體的回應嘛今天就監察院請容我再說一次啦監察院的預算應不應該大砍台灣社會每位公民都有自己的評價可能有人覺得我們監察院做得好棒棒啊專門在打老虎啊"},{"start":6734.755,"end":6763.26,"text":"非常有魄力啊監察院的預算一定要擁護到底啊台灣社會可能有人有這樣認為我們有尊重那台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是什麼監察院廢物院啊打手院啊工廠院啊我還記得很清楚啊當初陳其邁在當立委的時候監委那兩個字啊"},{"start":6764.249,"end":6779.813,"text":"是大大的作為記者會的背板那個時候他們寫監委這兩個字是怎麼寫的啊自己掌握權力了以後發現監委非常的香啊香得不得了這是我們沒有辦法支持的那個你剛剛有要發言嗎"},{"start":6793.737,"end":6795.498,"text":"我說過今天在這裡其實我是完全的同意我們鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員的就是說做人要一致嘛標準要一致嘛說到要做到嘛來來來羅志強就說到做到啊"},{"start":6820.765,"end":6839.871,"text":"今天不管國民黨的立場如何 組組協力的立場如何我主張廢除監察院 我就是主張廢除監察院所以剛剛國昌兄把民眾黨的提案拿給我我一秒都沒有猶豫我就簽下去了所以今天也拜託我們宗家兵委員 你要不要也來響應一下"},{"start":6841.553,"end":6861.398,"text":"提知即行（再不然就像黃國昌委員剛剛講的你自己去趕快把陳庭菲的提案拿出來我到現在不知道陳庭菲提案是不是被柯建民鎖掉了你只要提出來成立休憩委員會拿出來討論羅志強這一票絕對是鐵票我不會跑我刷過來就擋計處分我都接受很簡單這叫做標準一致性"},{"start":6870.819,"end":6878.893,"text":"所以 周家斌委員 你們常年在那邊算監察院費費費費 結果在預算就是什麼 戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶很簡單嘛"},{"start":6883.713,"end":6906.386,"text":"監察院廢成這個樣子 廢得理所當然 廢得薪水滿滿而你們也主張要廢 而現在我們 剛剛黃國昌委員也講了我舉個例子 審計部的預算羅志強一毛都不動 產權申報預算羅志強一毛都不動你政治獻金你該做的事情 該做的事情都做了 但是我們今天最不滿意的是什麼 就是你陳菊"},{"start":6909.98,"end":6939.134,"text":"你嘴巴喊今天監察院你也實際把監察院弄得殘廢不只殘廢還變成通場結果你薪水領得開開心心的這才是今天我們關鍵的重點如果這一場憲政的災難民進黨真的有誠意要去來去不是說一套做一套的話中央嘉賓這邊馬上就有你表達你做人一致性的機會啊羅志強做到了啊中央嘉賓要不要做到簽一簽你就做到了啊"},{"start":6945.731,"end":6971.98,"text":"政治上講誠信商業上講信用商業上有種叫做本票但是呢更常被人家拿來考較的叫支票詐騙集團開的空的支票我們不會接受但是是不是詐騙集團必須有過去的誠信跟商業信用來做考較現在在場的委員我只想聽我們林思明委員的高見因為"},{"start":6973.667,"end":6998.362,"text":"現在如果沒有參加過過去修憲委員會的委員這邊講的天花亂墜說你未來會如何如何我都不能相信我不敢說你是詐騙集團但是你沒有過去的信用可供我來考評可以來參與可以來衡量底下我說明一下第10屆的修憲委員一共有39位那麼國民黨呢吳怡婷委員"},{"start":6999.451,"end":7028.267,"text":"未在任李桂民委員未在任林奕華委員未在任林維周委員未在任曾民宗委員未在任費鴻泰委員未在任廖環如委員未在任鄭麗文委員未在任好那麼目前在任的呢我念一下有謝依鳳委員有鄭天才委員有楊瓊英委員剛還有一個曾民宗委員未在任陳玉珍委員"},{"start":7031.718,"end":7053.954,"text":"還有一個現在在場的林思明委員 很好 證人到了第10屆的修憲委員會 這39位委員目前在場的就是林委員跟本席那麼至於時代力量呢 很遺憾的邱顯哲委員現在不在任台灣民眾黨有兩位 一個是張其路委員 一個是賴香林委員 也不在任"},{"start":7054.969,"end":7073.779,"text":"所以我們話再怎麼講總是難逃歷史的簡證過去在擔任立委期間有沒有主張過要廢考監這個會有記錄過去在擔任學者的時候擔任民意代表的時候有沒有主張廢考監這可以拿來核實"},{"start":7075.489,"end":7077.791,"text":"時代力量在201616我有看到的紀錄他們主張的有兩個這是2016不是20202016是第9屆第9屆沒有辦法來成立修憲委員會因為國民黨抵制"},{"start":7090.953,"end":7107.225,"text":"那時候呢時代力量提出了費省的主張提出了費一國兩區的主張我想這些都是我們在翻查過去的歷史記錄可以查得到的那至於有很誠心誠意的在推動的沒錯"},{"start":7108.642,"end":7136.904,"text":"作為相對的少數黨小黨那麼我們都知道在各民主國家要求將病例改為聯力是小黨一致的訴求那很多人可能不知道什麼是病例什麼是聯力在這裡我也不想多做介紹因為這個呢知道的人就知道不知道的人自己去查就知道那麼至於時代力量所提出來的病例改聯力跟當時的時代力量是一致的那麼時代力量在2020之後還提出過國家正常化"},{"start":7137.881,"end":7154.729,"text":"我不曉得當年2020是否還在時代力量的黨員目前有從政的他們是不是願意回首當時他們主張在台灣的憲政體制上要回復一個國家正常化那至於18歲公民權廢考間降修憲門檻降公投門檻這個都是包括時代力量包括當時的民眾黨包括當時的民進黨我們都是支持的"},{"start":7165.236,"end":7184.506,"text":"那麼為什麼會變成只有18歲公民權路線這個地方出現能夠送出修憲委員會呢就是因為在場的臨時民委員或許可以跟我們見證一下當時民進黨主張的廢考間國民黨的態度是什麼國民黨的黨主席的發言是什麼我不是不尊重在場的委員你們的信用因為我沒有辦法考較"},{"start":7185.612,"end":7209.073,"text":"但是作為一個政黨中國國民黨百年的政黨他的黨主義的發言我想有信用可考那目前中國國民黨如果黨主席願意公開的承諾中國國民黨未來在台灣會推動將中華民國的憲政體制改成三元分立制那我覺得這張支票我感受我也相信台灣社會感受"},{"start":7210.134,"end":7232.368,"text":"那如果不是有政黨政治信用可供考察的那麼我相信包括韓院長的支票包括國民黨黨鞭副總章的支票我們都不敢收因為這些人說話沒有誠信可言在過去從上會議到現在新就任立法院院長的韓國瑜先生"},{"start":7233.828,"end":7260.604,"text":"首次擔任國民黨黨編的副總召副委員他們在這裡在草野協商所做的都沒有任何誠信可言甚至可以推翻甚至完完全全的顛覆一般人民對於民主國家國會議政的想像居然可以關起門來一黨修法還可以在現在目前此刻樓下202會議室還在有一個捏造的會議記錄"},{"start":7264.751,"end":7274.636,"text":"9點開會9點03分散會開會時間3分鐘的議事物躺在樓下內政委員會的桌上記錄著本週一前天的會議記錄什麼好了好了主席你什麼話台下的講話我在發言權我還在講欸沒關係來我們繼續講所以"},{"start":7287.358,"end":7315.023,"text":"所以一黨關門修法這樣的行為做得出來的政黨不要說政黨我到目前為止沒有看到中國國民黨的朱立倫主席對此發表任何言論所以我們不能推論說他支持這樣的行為但是至少立法院的韓國院長他沒有來處理這個爭議胡坤祺總召共和國民黨的黨鞭也是在後面指揮這樣一黨修法的"},{"start":7316.104,"end":7341.866,"text":"如果說可以一黨修法 那麼很好 那麼很好 如果一黨可以修法 那當然一黨就可以修憲 那麼我們要請羅委員 恭請你們的黨編 見請你們的黨主席 你們既然可以一黨修法關起門來 不讓其他的政黨參與 那你們當然就可以一黨修憲 就跟習近平所為一樣 我相信大家都會在看 如果你做不到一黨修憲"},{"start":7343.188,"end":7361.363,"text":"你就不要一黨關門修法如果你認為一黨修法是不應該的關門修法是不應該的那請按照目前立法院的憲政體制我們的法律體制請韓院長召集朝野協商來推動成立修憲委員會39位修憲委員及各黨團推派代表我們選舉五席召委我們來認真的好好的延續第10屆的修憲主張我們來跟社會討論"},{"start":7373.188,"end":7391.493,"text":"再次強調商業上我們講究信用沒有信用的支票我也不敢說你是詐騙集團我不敢收但是過去有任何具體的時機可以讓我們相信你的我相信中國國民黨的黨主席應該還有這樣的社會信用我們期待"},{"start":7392.313,"end":7419.464,"text":"期待在立法院可以看到中國國民黨的朱立倫主席要求他們的從政黨員一起跟台灣社會共同來推動修憲那至於修憲的題目我們可以來逐一討論也沒有限定在廢考間而已廢考間只是其中一項主張我們還有很多主張希望能夠來逐一的路線謝謝那個這樣喔因為第一案就討論了一個半小時那是不是我們不要再討論憲法因為我們現在不是"},{"start":7426.747,"end":7428.649,"text":"我們今天審查的是預算"},{"start":7455.377,"end":7466.363,"text":"中召委我是民進黨我真的只服你啦這是非常厲害真的非常厲害的一個人那我就再提醒一次就是說我們今天是審預算不是在討論憲法"},{"start":7469.906,"end":7469.926,"text":"黃國健議員"},{"start":7497.912,"end":7509.831,"text":"其實我剛剛就說得很清楚了嘛就不要只出一張嘴嘛要有具體的行動嘛那有沒有具體的行動我相信願不願有具體的行動我相信大家看得很清楚"},{"start":7510.831,"end":7528.654,"text":"第二,中央政府委員的發言我承認的確是有一點發散我們現在在司法法制委員會處理有關於監察院的預算然後可以扯到其他委員會裡面發生的狀況我聽了我也是覺得蠻傻眼的"},{"start":7529.655,"end":7552.743,"text":"但是他剛剛提到一個很重要的事情因為最後國民黨的主席朱立倫有信用沒有信用我沒有辦法幫朱主席回答但我們就循著鍾嘉斌委員剛剛所提出來的我們來加以檢證嘛到底是哪一個政黨一天到晚開芭樂票開了以後跳票"},{"start":7553.976,"end":7569.362,"text":"然後永遠開始在那邊轉嘛 中央編委員現在坐在我對面說我講話開始發散 沒有 我完全在回應他講的話 我們現在在這個會期要修的財政收支劃分法 那不就是民進黨的主張嗎"},{"start":7571.567,"end":7598.157,"text":"那不就是民進黨賴清德的主張嗎民主進步黨黨主席賴清德從當台南市市長到行政院院長全部都要說財政收支劃分法一定要修啊不修不行啊奇怪了那怎麼民進黨到現在賴清德自己擔總統以後財劃法絕對不能修啊修了會讓台灣陷入空前的國家危機啊"},{"start":7599.404,"end":7620.931,"text":"法夾彎轉成這個樣子喔法夾彎轉成這個樣子喔還不是只有財政收支劃分法勒集會遊行法民進黨在野的時候不是說是惡法嗎蔡英文不是承諾要廢除集會遊行惡法改立集會遊行保障法嗎民進黨從2016年到2024年國會過半8年勒"},{"start":7627.099,"end":7655.832,"text":"及而二法要廢止的政治承諾做了嗎這個是黨主席蔡英文當初跟台灣社會所做的承諾反媒體壟斷專法也是蔡英文做的承諾啊兩岸協議監督條例也是蔡英文做的承諾啊所以真的要講說開拔蠟票我管你是支票還是本票"},{"start":7656.977,"end":7670.546,"text":"有跳票的事實啊跳票的事實啊歷史會檢證啊說的完全沒錯啊歷史檢證就一一檢證民進黨就跳票嘛一天到晚開拔蠟票剛剛我說的哪一個法案不是事實那我們就以這個會期這個禮拜五我們馬上就要處理的財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7684.582,"end":7692.729,"text":"這是過去賴清德的主張阿他當行政院院長的時候的主張阿修了嗎?修了財政收支劃分法了嗎?目前民進黨目前行政部門財政收支劃分法的版本在哪裡?拉回來來處理阿沒有阿你有沒有真的我都發言你要在那邊講一黨修法我印象都很深刻阿"},{"start":7713.632,"end":7734.691,"text":"在這個立法院裡面主導一檔修法的還少過嗎?國務金要費怎麼除罪化的?會計法那個可恥的修法是怎麼過的?污人民的錢還可以除罪化?這不就是當初民進黨過半的時候花了多少時間做了多少討論"},{"start":7740.185,"end":7749.768,"text":"那時候花了多少時間?做了多少討論?把國務金要費除作話?這是哪一黨幹的?在立法院公報裡面沒有嗎?"},{"start":7761.852,"end":7772.662,"text":"林委員我先回應嘉賓想對這個要不要費考監我也要很誠懇的告訴你我們在第10屆確實成立修憲委員會當時誰來主導"},{"start":7778.203,"end":7799.02,"text":"民進黨主導的我記得沒有錯的時候那個秘書長今天也在這裡哦那我們在委員會也曾經來這個學問過秘書長秘書長也回答說他過去的立場他過去擔任立法委員的時候他也主張要廢除我們的監察院但是現在現在秘書長擔任的我們的秘書長"},{"start":7800.74,"end":7819.947,"text":"所以在第10屆不管是朝野大家成立修院委員會把費考監列入我們的一個議題但是為什麼沒有通過嘉賓你不要忘了當時是誰是在國會的最多數黨是民進黨啊"},{"start":7823.348,"end":7851.688,"text":"所以你不要去講說把這個責任推到我們國民黨的身上其實當時就是由民進黨雖然表面上看是說要廢考監但實際上在打假球你們並不是真心誠意的要廢除我們考試院監察院因為過去你們在野的時候不斷的去提出說要考監要廢除但是一旦你們執政了"},{"start":7853.59,"end":7869.278,"text":"可能嘗到甜頭了啦認為這個考試院監察院可以安插很多你們籌擁的人士可以護航很多你們的執政黨很多的弊案所以你們現在呢把這個責任要推給我們在野黨"},{"start":7870.526,"end":7887.816,"text":"我想這是如果去翻開過去的歷史我們可以看得非常清楚所以我們不要再雙標了今天要不要廢除考監我想如果今天你們是執政黨如果執政黨堅持要廢除考監我想在野黨呢"},{"start":7888.516,"end":7906.994,"text":"我們絕對會做出很省慎的研究甚至我們也贊成廢除考監我想這是我們未來一直在研擬的一個方向所以就看現在的執政黨你們的態度是什麼你不要把這個責任推給"},{"start":7907.975,"end":7925.616,"text":"在野黨阿所以我覺得說你剛才講說第10屆我有在場我有見證對確實我見證了但是我見證的是民主進步黨根本在打假球你們不是真的要廢除考監阿那我想我們這個還是要呼籲民進黨阿"},{"start":7926.894,"end":7950.965,"text":"我們還是讓我們的議事啊依照我們的民主的程序啊依照我們的議事規則的來進行啊你一再的牽托說我們怎麼一黨關門去開會你要回顧過去你們的所作所為嗎過去民進黨做出多少的去拔麥克風去佔領主席台去關門不讓我們的會議人員進到議場來開會來議事這都是民進黨所做的"},{"start":7957.728,"end":7982.843,"text":"所以今天我們完全是依照意識規則在進行開會完全合乎意識規則至於說這個有沒有民進黨委員的參與我想這是一個意識攻防跟這個意識有效沒效完全是兩回事所以我們一再的對意識攻防去醜化這都是學你們過去的你不要五十步笑百步了過去你們就是這樣做"},{"start":7984.324,"end":8009.9,"text":"那我想我們對於民主的進程我們大家要守護如果一直的去霸佔主席台不讓議事來進行我想這不是一個健康的國會不是一個我們民主國會應該有的一個狀況所以我們要這邊嚴正呼籲民進黨民主不是民進黨說了算民進黨你們如果堅持你的民主價值就讓我們國會"},{"start":8011.561,"end":8011.681,"text":"好,那個羅委員﹖"},{"start":8043.452,"end":8066.262,"text":"我還是一柄對我們鍾嘉賓的尊敬鍾嘉賓有講到一個做人的原則他說做人說到要做到做人要誠信不要雙標嘉賓兄我是很認同你這句話啦但你不要直接打臉李俊逸這樣不好吧也是好歹你前同事啊"},{"start":8067.142,"end":8073.404,"text":"李俊逸完全示範你的雙標阿示範你的沒有誠信阿示範你的沒有下限阿你講的阿對不對李俊逸跟陳菊就是一輩子堅定主張廢除監察院然後現在中央院院領監察院薪水領得好開心的超級無敵的好示範阿就是你今天我們鍾嘉秉講的誠信阿說到做到不要雙標阿全部都中阿鍾嘉秉"},{"start":8096.869,"end":8097.77,"text":"所以當鍾嘉賓標舉誠信兩個字講誠信阿民進黨阿公投綁大選誰最早提出來的阿"},{"start":8119.688,"end":8133.2,"text":"現在公投綁架選是國家是災難阿財化法賴清德說不修是國家的災難現在修又是國家的災難阿連國會改革官員不可以說謊都是你科建民林佳龍的提案阿結果呢現在呢官員說謊叫做天賦人權天經地義"},{"start":8141.227,"end":8154.312,"text":"今天我也不知道民進黨到底有什麼底氣在那邊跟我講不要雙標講誠信我說實在話我佩服宗家兵吼滔滔江水綿綿不絕為什麼也不過叫你就學學羅志強嘛羅志強就簽了啊我就簽了啊然後呢你就可以盤古開天扯半天不敢簽一句話就結束了我說話你不想簽民眾黨提案我可以理解啦"},{"start":8171.26,"end":8185.433,"text":"你今天好好叫民進黨把修憲委員會你們的提案端端給大家看嘛此一時彼一時我說過啦今天我保證羅志強絕對支持你民進黨的提案你只要提你們陳提費的提案出來"},{"start":8186.354,"end":8204.869,"text":"我投票支持我也幫你拉票你要做記者休息的門檻高我們一起努力嘛我跟隨你宗嘉賓不行嗎國民黨的立場蘇主席的立場可以溝通啊可以再討論啊剛才立法院委員講了啊我們也持開放態度啊如果你們真正提案我們覺得欸真的非常有道理"},{"start":8205.589,"end":8222.177,"text":"照你們民進黨時空環境之數阿今天時空環境已經進展到民進黨所認為說是時候成熟的叫監察院滾蛋的時候我相信國民黨立委我們可以好好的一起來跟著民進黨一起來努力阿"},{"start":8223.578,"end":8235.087,"text":"可是你不要說一套做一套嘛然後把修憲案就藏起來了你拿出來啊我已經跟你講拿出來我就投同意票啊然後我也會努力的幫你們宣揚啊加上民眾黨的8票民進黨"},{"start":8239.471,"end":8254.117,"text":"我告訴你這一次避其功於義馬上就進了不要再逼著李俊逸雙標我知道心裡領那個薪水領得很痛苦他想說我對不起以前的李俊逸我一直想領那個高薪我領得很痛苦我看他臉上表情都很猙獰成局讓他們更痛苦"},{"start":8258.103,"end":8258.123,"text":"總委員．"},{"start":8277.69,"end":8297.665,"text":"我很佩服羅委員擅長演繹別人的內心戲其實來立法院實在可惜了那麼別人怎麼想 別人心裡怎麼感受我想羅委員當然有他自己發揮的餘地但是從事實來說剛剛林世民委員的意見發言我比較重視因為畢竟我們曾經在第10屆"},{"start":8299.406,"end":8315.568,"text":"共同在修憲委員裡面擔任如果您不健忘的話我要告訴回憶一下2020年9月14號經過草野協商才能夠成立修憲委員會別忘了草野協商目前第11屆立法院的草野協商"},{"start":8316.269,"end":8342.56,"text":"能不能來成立修憲委員會我們樂觀其成我們希望韓院長能夠在各位國民黨跟民眾黨委員的呼籲之下趕快的來透過草野協商成立修憲委員會當年由院長透過草野協商各黨派同意之後成立了修憲委員會有39位委員民進黨22位國民黨14位但是很可惜的目前只有其中的6位目前是進入了11屆"},{"start":8343.88,"end":8369.152,"text":"民眾黨的兩位時代立場一位現在不負在任好了那麼剛林委員林思敏委員他可能忘了他當修憲委員的時候你們的召委是李桂民李召委當時我們要推動的這些包括費考卷的提案很抱歉必須經過全院委員四分之三出席四分之三同意後才能在院會做成決議"},{"start":8371.074,"end":8397.061,"text":"當然立法院最後透過這麼高門檻不是國民黨單獨不是民進黨單獨可以來推動的事實上修憲委員會在送到院會的決議也是經過草野協商確認國民黨願意加入促成了可以達到三分之三非常高的門檻才能夠通過後送交全民公民來做投票覆決"},{"start":8398.14,"end":8427.495,"text":"所以不要忘了不是民進黨支持民進黨推動就可以一黨的單獨來推動任何的修憲提案在修憲委員會當中有國民黨委員的參與有時代力量跟民眾黨委員的參與但是也必須經過朝野協商最後只有18歲公民選入憲一案經過朝野協商得到其他政黨的認可才能夠進入到院會進行三分之四三分之三高門檻的表決才能成案"},{"start":8428.376,"end":8442.806,"text":"所以如果林士明委員過去在第10屆擔任過修憲委員的委員或許您不是召委或許你沒有參與當時代表國民黨的黨團的草野協商所以你不了解你以為以當時民進黨60席左右的"},{"start":8447.56,"end":8460.483,"text":"其次就可以來推動獨立完成三分之三四分之三高門檻的修憲那你就太高估了或者說高估了您對憲法程序的瞭解了"},{"start":8461.677,"end":8484.846,"text":"至於擅長演繹他人內心系的羅委員我要回應你李靜韻委員他現在的職務恐怕除了預算之外他很難跟你做其他的意見表達這一點我想大家都很清楚在立法院其他機關的委員其他機關的代表在那裡大概只能聽我們委員就我們的議案來做討論他只能被詢問到的備詢李靜韻委員擔任過第8屆第9屆的立法委員"},{"start":8486.627,"end":8504.467,"text":"在第8屆2015年首次透過新的徵修條文的規定來成立在2005年修憲之後第7次修憲之後依照最新的徵修條文的規定成立的修憲委員會立法院依他的職權來行使推動修憲的李委員剛好是當時第8屆的委員"},{"start":8505.808,"end":8532.883,"text":"所以我們在第9屆的時候我有機會跟李俊逸委員共同的來共事我們也很積極的願意來去推動成立修憲委員會但是當時的李俊逸委員．跟民進黨的黨團當時的成員我們沒有辦法在當時的蘇嘉全委員．蘇嘉全院長主持的超遠協商得到當時有三分之一席次左右的國民黨的支持我們無法成立修憲委員會"},{"start":8533.863,"end":8548.094,"text":"而這個修憲委員會直到第10屆的時候勉強在國民黨的認可之下才能夠透過草野順利的推動這段歷史不是信口胡說就可以掩蓋的有沒有參與到修憲委員會有沒有認真的去推動民進黨既有的三權分立的憲法主張我想不是在這裡胡說八道就可以騙人掩人耳目的"},{"start":8556.62,"end":8568.805,"text":"過去所做的事情都經得起歷史的檢證也必須要經得起歷史的檢證我在這裡呢也讓其他委員不要因為你們在這裡因為你們第11屆進來對著過去的修憲委員會說三道四或者說雖然是第10屆擔任過立法委員擔任過修憲委員卻對過去的修憲程序連基本的額數都猛然無知這個讓我們很擔心接續下來這第一次"},{"start":8581.55,"end":8592.049,"text":"11屆的立法院以這樣的黨團．各黨團的組成真的要認真心誠意的來推動重大的修憲議題真的是堪虞啊 非常的令人擔憂啊"},{"start":8594.834,"end":8619.242,"text":"謝謝那我們就先休息五分鐘那之後第一案討論完之後後面我們就盡量不要再去談論憲政上面的問題好不好因為不是因為欸中召委如果你要繼續討論我也可以陪你但是我們就審不完了不是因為我們今天是審預算不是我跟你講如果你那麼愛討論憲法我也可以跟你討論很久但是問題是我們是不是先把預算審完對對對現在休息預算審完齁"},{"start":9206.258,"end":9207.279,"text":"保留送院會協商通案處理"},{"start":9231.667,"end":9235.271,"text":"國倡委員因為第一案剛剛大家的想法差太遠 那是不是第一案我們就予以保留"},{"start":9254.824,"end":9281.853,"text":"同意我們現在審查第二案到第13案就是工作計畫第一幕的一般行政國倉委員你有提案要凍結那是請你說明一下我應該提的是簡略吧不好意思看錯行了是簡略好謝謝"},{"start":9283.837,"end":9302.236,"text":"因為在我們現在在處理第一幕嗎?我們現在在處理第一幕嗎?就是第二案到第13案第一幕一般行政他編列的預算是8億9千零46萬4千元"},{"start":9305.562,"end":9333.617,"text":"我們針對有關於第一幕的部分我一樣延續著台灣民眾黨黨團對於監察院我們所抱持的基本上面的看法因此我們針對有關於監察院在這一幕向下的預算除了我剛剛所說明的前面就有關於財產申報的業務我們沒有去做任何其他的"},{"start":9334.457,"end":9358.625,"text":"的處理那就其他沒有必要的部分我們是檢列預算90376000元以上說明因為前面有講過各個黨團基本的政策立場那我也不希望一樣的話一而再再而三的反覆所以我就先簡要的說明路上那我們再請羅委員"},{"start":9364.053,"end":9364.694,"text":"第4案我要特別強調"},{"start":9379.591,"end":9396.461,"text":"這一次的監察院陳局主導的監察院是有史以來做的最爛的監察院但是也是有史以來預算最高的監察院那事實上監察院的預算不斷的攀升110年監察院預算只有7億8千萬新年編10億9千7百萬漲幅將近40%那創歷史新高"},{"start":9404.306,"end":9425.919,"text":"那你的單位如果說今天績效卓著你監督政府然後去督查弊案然後去整治政風卓有功效那另當別論就算不談憲政高度不談說今天廢不廢監察院你光監察院自我廢物化自我打手化那抱歉"},{"start":9426.619,"end":9450.849,"text":"那很簡單啊今天那你的監察院的預算當然要延審那我也有看到中加兵委員在媒體上有講說這是叫逼公務員領薪水不做事那這樣很簡單所以我就把薪水也刪了但不會刪公務員的就是那些所謂的高官這個司衛素餐的薪水刪一刪當然我知道很多可能大家對這一點是有意見這意見我也尊重"},{"start":9452.91,"end":9462.771,"text":"所以我建議這個案子就保留送協商那看看大家協商有什麼想法再自己去決定那第4案呢第5案是什麼第5案我要講"},{"start":9464.13,"end":9467.931,"text":"陳舉 陳舉到哪裡就鋪張到哪裡當高雄市長高雄負債2000多億當監察院院長監察預算暴增4成2020年8月上任監察院的稅出當時只是7億8400萬110年就變成9億4100萬一路上升到現在變成10億9700萬"},{"start":9489.395,"end":9505.965,"text":"所以這樣的委員來掌等監察權根本是敗壞國家的廉政之風因此在第5案的部分我要特別講的是我們針對第5案就是在一般行政向下基本行政工作維持業務費的物品油料費124萬元我是要簡列"},{"start":9512.108,"end":9518.697,"text":"一百萬元凍結50%等監察院一個月內向立法院司法法制委員會提出專案報告時得凍資"},{"start":9521.204,"end":9545.663,"text":"監察院我剛前面講效能的低落是有史以來之罪但政府首長的車輛數卻力冠五院那預算當然應該減約啦那監察院作為五院憲政五院之一他的政府首長擁有車輛29輛遠超過行政院的15輛立法院的5輛司法院17輛跟考試院的13輛這樣的龐大數量我覺得要嚴加檢討"},{"start":9549.306,"end":9557.411,"text":"所以不只是車輛數高居不下油料費也是高居不下那車輛維護費高達115萬元油料費124.8萬元合計支出達240餘萬元"},{"start":9565.556,"end":9583.685,"text":"監察院既然效能這麼差那基本上我覺得就可以好好從各項地方來幫助監察院來使他們的更加的簡約使資源配置更有效率所以第5案跟第6案是針對所謂的這個車輛維護費跟油料費我的一個提案主張以上還有11案是不是到幾案到13案13案好那第10案也是我的等一下"},{"start":9593.598,"end":9616.516,"text":"第10案就是一樣的邏輯刪除短程車資在一般行政向下基本行政維持工作業務費的短程車資編列10萬元我減他7萬元那編到10萬元基本上效能長期低落也讓大家覺得這個經費的合理性必要性感到非常懷疑那11案是刪除特別費"},{"start":9617.557,"end":9621.28,"text":"同樣的也就是對監察院功能不彰我覺得首長特別費應該優先來檢討所以首長特別費219萬我是主張就是3減219萬全減然後13案是凍結資訊服務費"},{"start":9633.45,"end":9651.04,"text":"那針對這個資訊服務會編列3106萬元那凍結該預算30%監察院一個月內向立法院的司法法制委員會提出專案報告同意後使得凍資這是本人以上的幾個提案 謝謝你說排第二個是什麼意思"},{"start":9665.181,"end":9671.655,"text":"謝謝主席 我想接下來我們要對於剛剛羅遠有提議的我做一個回應"},{"start":9673.376,"end":9693.151,"text":"就是人事費在預算審查可不可以減劣這是一個好的議題那我希望待會呢機關代表李秘書長或者是可以請在場有來列席的包括行政院主席總處的公務預算處的李視察以及監察院人事室的劉主任"},{"start":9693.931,"end":9710.447,"text":"或者是會計室負責預算編列的陳主任來可以幫我們做個釐清首先我就公務機關他在預算審議的時候先理解人事費人事費的構成先有機關的編制緣額但是機關的編制緣額"},{"start":9714.571,"end":9729.368,"text":"未必是它的預算緣額通常有些機關的編制緣額預算緣額是低於編制緣額就是預算並沒有將所有的編制緣額用滿但是接下來還有一個現有緣額"},{"start":9731.124,"end":9750.554,"text":"預算原額除了會低於編制原額之外現有原額有可能還低於預算原額因為有可能在年度當中已經給你的預算原額並不能用滿找不到人像速發部他的機關原額當時給他提供了增加了200名約聘務人員"},{"start":9752.359,"end":9764.017,"text":"預算部分也撥足了200名約聘僱人員的預算原額但他的現有原額招聘不到這麼多人所以接下來我要請監察院的代表大概跟我們具體說明幾個事情"},{"start":9766.567,"end":9789.739,"text":"目前監察院過去這幾年來以我們剛剛預算提案所提到的成長預算成長40%第一個這個數字是怎麼得來的我們不清楚可不可以請機關代表稍微模擬一下第二這個成長的幅度對應監察院的機關緣額的成長有沒有它的一個關聯性能不能告訴我們監察院這幾年來的機關緣額的成長"},{"start":9792.02,"end":9817.191,"text":"第三監察院預算緣額有沒有用足機關緣額這些預算緣額包含了哪些機關緣額第四目前你們的現有緣額哪些緣額那最後最後第五那麼如果立法院的預算審議我們不能既然機關在編列預算的時候他都可以少於編制緣額去編列預算"},{"start":9818.68,"end":9821.562,"text":"我認為啊,審議單位也有可能在預算緣額機關報上來的時候我們去檢列他的預算,致使他的預算緣額實際可運用的部分更少於他的機關緣額"},{"start":9834.147,"end":9856.28,"text":"所以請就這幾個部分來跟大家做一個說明什麼是政府機關的機關緣額以及機關在編列預算的時候它的預算緣額怎麼去議定當然最後在執行決算的時候也可以說明為什麼你有這些預算緣額你到底有沒有用滿那麼這些請機關代表可以予以說明 謝謝"},{"start":9860.299,"end":9884.633,"text":"我的部分我就直接在這邊說好了就不再浪費時間我的部分其實在剛剛休息前的時候我已經大概有提過一下我的想法了大概就是說對監察院其實他在司法個案上面他的處理模式其實他造成檢察官跟法官核心職權的侵害"},{"start":9885.543,"end":9914.02,"text":"那這個其實是違反五權分立的原則啦尤其是不可以就個案的部分加以干涉那其實在自權質詢的時候那當然秘書長有我有詢問過秘書長那秘書長給我的答案是這樣我是能夠接受但是不滿意那為什麼是我可以接受是因為我也了解監察委員是個別行使職權那就秘書長的立場你說要去干預監察委員個別行使職權當然這個秘書長我們持平的來看這確實是"},{"start":9915.561,"end":9930.599,"text":"是不容易的啦但是為什麼不滿意是因為如果照這樣的話那其實我國的監察委員就是皇帝了嘛他想怎樣就怎樣沒有任何一個行政上面的作為能夠勸他不要這樣做或是告訴他相關的"},{"start":9932.281,"end":9945.715,"text":"監察委員的職權範圍是什麼就像大法官他他憲判8號他侵害到其他的權利侵害到司法權侵害到立法權一樣吼那到最後也都沒有任何人能夠跟他談"},{"start":9946.576,"end":9970.834,"text":"那大法官他是學有專精﹖所以我相信他會這麼幹一定是他故意為之但監察委員很多他不一定對於自己監察權的運作的範圍到哪裡他能夠理解所以我還是這樣覺得就是說秘書長說沒有辦法就個案去告訴監委這些東西我想我可以理解但是就這部分我覺得"},{"start":9973.046,"end":9993.293,"text":"還是說不能夠完全說其實跟自己都沒有關係那只能做善意的勸告那這部分我就先再說明那另外就是因為我們認為我這邊認為說監察院最近的那個職權的行使上面呢他不但他不但沒有對這個國家有很大的注意他其實反而是在"},{"start":9994.605,"end":9994.765,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10023.561,"end":10043.782,"text":"就像我講個最簡單的我們先不要去論各地方政府你會說我們談論到各地方政府是否與執政黨相同的那個縣市首長那你可能說這是政治的鬥爭那我們談一個最簡單的就是檢察官或法官的反彈光這個東西就"},{"start":10046.223,"end":10063.257,"text":"跟政治無關嘛 就像我說陳宗祥的案子的時候當時我也還在檢方那你們真的搞不清楚你們也假裝看不到基層的法官檢察官對這幾件事情的反彈有多大你們真的不清楚當時我們的反彈非常的大"},{"start":10064.418,"end":10079.473,"text":"當然我們從來不期待部長或政次他們會為基層法官檢察官講話但是基層法官檢察官不是笨蛋每一個人幾乎在法律上面都有一定的法律程度大家不會搞不清楚監察委員能做什麼不能做什麼"},{"start":10080.134,"end":10103.133,"text":"甚至監察院在自己的網站上面也寫得很清楚我這一次我在第幾案我其實也有提到你們可以回去看其實監察院的網站自己都有提到說如果司法調查的時候其實監察委員是不會優先去調查那個案子那詳細是在網站哪個地方我忘了因為我那時候點進去看再麻煩"},{"start":10104.98,"end":10131.742,"text":"各位回去看一下如果連監察院都這麼講而且監察院的作為會造成基層的法官跟檢察官這麼的不滿的時候那可能監察院自己要檢討那我就說我不管政客在旁邊善笑我但我對於法律的理解我相信不會低於這些政客啦那我對於法律及憲法制度的理解我還是這樣依法論法法律沒有刪除之前二法易法我也是遵守它憲法沒有"},{"start":10133.485,"end":10143.881,"text":"先除修正之前一樣我也是會遵守他所以我還是希望說監察院就這個部分能夠理解因為監察院的作為已經造成了"},{"start":10145.359,"end":10165.925,"text":"獨立審判的司法人員以及獨立偵查的檢查人員都不滿的時候那就不能再告訴我說我監察院做的都是對的因為他們是非常中立以我對於院檢的理解基層的院檢都非常的中立高層我不敢講啦基層絕對是非常的中立"},{"start":10167.685,"end":10184.752,"text":"其他的部分大概就是跟黃委員跟羅委員剛剛講的內容差不多我就不再浪費大家的時間麻煩監察院這邊就按號2號到第13號還有剛剛各位委員 中委員等等的詢問能夠表示意見 謝謝"},{"start":10187.22,"end":10207.199,"text":"好,謝謝主席。針對第2號案號2到案號13幾位委員所提的吹詢我一併做綜合答覆在案號2的部分黃委員刪除除了保留我們公務人員的薪資以外全數刪除這個勢必影響到我們監察院的正常運作"},{"start":10208.019,"end":10221.651,"text":"監察院是一個憲政機關那其實其他憲政機關還是要讓我們可以正常運作下去那黃委員的提案我們尊重但是我們希望這個委員會可以再討論這個部分確實會有影響而且這個有4至632的問題"},{"start":10227.336,"end":10231.179,"text":"有關吳委員剛才提的 其實吳委員在詢答的時候已經提過了 這個我也說明很清楚 這個查的是防逃機制 那確實在這件事情上 南檢跟南院不是完全沒有問題"},{"start":10243.328,"end":10262.48,"text":"只是我們的委員確實時機不宜那這個我們已經有透過其他的委員告知這位的提案委員這個部分有做一個說明那有關羅委員所提的這個刪除政務人員的人事費用監察院總共有30位政務委員包括29位的監察委員"},{"start":10266.142,"end":10282.427,"text":"這是依照憲法徵修條文第7條所明列的那還有一位秘書長就是我本人他是依組織法第9條所明列的那這樣這個法規上明列的徵務人員適不適宜不要領薪水這個我們請委員會再討論那另外有關第5案跟第6案有關這個油料跟我們汽車維修我先跟羅委員報告"},{"start":10295.331,"end":10308.156,"text":"這個油料跟汽車維修監察院現在總共有38部車子其中有16部已經超過13年了那根據規定15年就要報廢所以因為車子老舊所以會有維修的情形比較高那事實上我們維護費其實可以編到179萬我們編了115萬這個必須先說明第二個為什麼會有這麼多政府首長的坐車"},{"start":10324.182,"end":10330.589,"text":"正部首長的坐車依規定是所謂2000cc以上那監察院在第二屆從陳立安院長就規定所有29位委員的配車應該是一致的所以當時到第四屆這個車子都是第四屆買的不是第六屆編的"},{"start":10340.66,"end":10348.184,"text":"那當時就是都用2000的坐車所以現在已經沒有所謂的政府首長坐車除了四位的政府首長以外那其他都是一般公務車現在我們委員也沒有配車現在委員需要用到公務車必須填寫派車單所以這個部分我們也麻煩委員會在斟酌我們確實有困難那去年我們維護費用就不太夠了所以這個部分還反請這個"},{"start":10370.775,"end":10374.438,"text":"思考再來就是第13案的部分"},{"start":10380.609,"end":10405.458,"text":"這個資訊管理費用跟委員報告就是事實上這個資訊管理費用編的已經比去年就比今年113年還少那我們呈現了一個現象就是資本門降低經常門增加經常門增加的原因最主要是我們有39個系統要維護39個系統要維護那其中跟財政有關的就有15個系統因為我們有很多的介接"},{"start":10406.538,"end":10429.663,"text":"現在所有申報財產的人都可以利用借接那借接的使用率也達到93以上那這個部分是主要是這個系統各種系統的維護另外現在還還有一個系統就是說在申報政治現金的時候過去常常碰到說這個有沒有跟政府有契約關係或者是他本身是負債"},{"start":10431.744,"end":10450.74,"text":"不能捐款這是憲法所規定的現在我們也有這個平台所以維護這些平台我們確實需要比較多的費用所以今年會增加最後一個問題回答剛剛羅委員提的為什麼比110年增加那麼多110年的時候我們那時候還沒有編列國家人權委員會我們現在有40幾位我們員工另外國家人權委員會"},{"start":10458.926,"end":10482.308,"text":"在2020年8月正式成立以後我們有很多國家人權的工作要推動所以這個預算有所增加那其他麻煩各位委員再討論再參考以上報告謝謝好謝謝那我們這12案有關那個國外旅費的部分剛剛我們已經提到說國外旅費就是保留那就國外旅費以外的部分那是不是"},{"start":10484.035,"end":10490.1,"text":"先記官這邊有沒有提出一個想法那我們看看這個提案的委員有沒有辦法接受"},{"start":10492.554,"end":10512.954,"text":"因為以第二案來講一般行政的部分黃委員除了保留薪資以外這個就全部刪除那我們就沒有辦法運作了所以這個我也沒辦法講說要刪多少好那其他案呢你有沒有就是說趕快提一下那我們提案委員都在這裡他可以決定說同不同意你們的想法"},{"start":10513.815,"end":10537.158,"text":"如果針對一般行政的話是不是可以這樣就是說我們希望說一般行政是整個最大項目說的都在一般行政如果你把我全刪掉的話我監察院根本沒辦法運作那監察院沒辦法運作就違反大法官事件第632號的解釋所以我們希望還是可以讓我們順利的運作所以這個部分我們尊重委員的討論"},{"start":10540.602,"end":10564.222,"text":"提案委員黃委員跟羅委員就這個部分你們接受嗎其實我覺得前面的理由大家都已經說明的很清楚了嘛那監察院剛剛主席也給代表的秘書長機會那請他們看他們自己覺得適合的額度是多少那不過剛剛秘書長的說明似乎是說就請我們來討論嘛"},{"start":10566.468,"end":10589.725,"text":"但是我覺得基本上面的在這件事情上面彼此的偵測立場可能差異太大了因為我們一幕一幕來加以處理在這種基本的偵測立場差異這麼大的情況之下我是不是建議就保留因為我們委員會大概的習慣就是大家有不一樣的看法就保留也不要說"},{"start":10590.766,"end":10608.048,"text":"在這邊直接透過表決的方式來處理其實我覺得也不好啦我是做這樣子的建議因為我相信剛剛在第一輪實際上面發言的工坊大家都已經把基本的想法負責任的"},{"start":10609.229,"end":10625.18,"text":"做了一個清楚的說明,立法院的公報都有記載那整個議事轉播的系統關心的公民其實都可以看得到那所以我是不是建議主席因為第一個我們在這邊顯然沒有辦法有共識那第二個"},{"start":10626.814,"end":10652.893,"text":"在目前的狀況下面我相信可能不管是監察院也好或者是我們執政黨的委員其實也不希望也不樂見在這邊就直接用表決的方式來處理我們是不是就維持委員會這邊的傳統大家有政策立場不一樣的地方各自說明完了以後那就保留到協商再來處理這個是我以上的建議"},{"start":10655.76,"end":10683.883,"text":"總委你要表示一點我想這幾個案子還是有一個根本的邏輯問題但是我剛剛有跟機關代表表達或許他們一時之間沒有辦法在口頭上提供我剛剛的那些五個詢問那是不是後續可以透過資料的呈送來讓我們知道這幾年監察院他的機關預算的成長"},{"start":10688.596,"end":10709.436,"text":"與人員編制數的變遷有所關聯除了人員編制數有變遷（會導致預算緣額的差別之外（實際執行上是否有其他明顯的關聯當然我們也知道任何公司（"},{"start":10711.226,"end":10738.375,"text":"就算是純粹服務業他是以人為服務主體的公司除了人事費之外他的業務費也是支撐這些領用薪水的編制人員去從事業務的重要基礎我還是要重申如果認為目前我們預算審查不能就機關的預算緣額予以三減那麼你將"},{"start":10740.499,"end":10768.87,"text":"這些預算原額的人員他領用薪水之後他必須執行的業務的業務會全刪那就剛好坐實了領乾薪不辦事如果天底下真的有這麼好的工作立法院可以同意有個機關說有這個限制你的機關的預算原額你報出來的預算因為我不能刪減"},{"start":10770.543,"end":10784.892,"text":"然後所以我就就所有這些預算原額當中的人員他從事執行業務所必須的業務費用我進行刪除全數的刪除而不是經過實際審查之後做必要的檢列"},{"start":10788.314,"end":10805.371,"text":"那麼這樣子就無一的讓這個機關人員有預算編制有編制的有預算原額的人員坐領甘心那至於哪些業務我們在討論當中其實我還要重申在我們過去立法院的預算機關預算審議當中像是水電費車輛"},{"start":10809.495,"end":10830.093,"text":"防色維修其實經常的會基於對於行政機關當然監察院也被捅包在這當中去進行一些通案的討論那這些通案的討論當然都會在送院會前的草野協商去進行那本席也是認同我們委員會"},{"start":10831.474,"end":10843.814,"text":"一致以來透過共識決如果無法達成共識決我們保留送院會協商尤其是關於國外旅費包括防色維修包括水電費包括車輛的"},{"start":10846.636,"end":10869.577,"text":"預算編列過去10年來行政機關在跟立法機關進行預算的討論的時候這通常都會進行一個通案的考量那我想基於監察院目前他所依據執行職權的相關法律不管是憲法徵休條文還是相關的法令都還沒有辦法進行修改"},{"start":10870.157,"end":10891.898,"text":"那這種情況之下我們到底在預算審議上有哪些空間因為由委員提出來我也是希望機關代表能夠在事後在我們朝野協商之前能夠有這些相關的書面資料如果現在一直拿不出來沒辦法統計或者說要先口頭補充說明我也可以接受我們總是要知道"},{"start":10892.678,"end":10900.661,"text":"編制原額預算原額現有原額跟我們目前所審議的機關預算審議的關聯性以上好謝謝那那個羅委員其實我還是一樣雙方說不要讓這個監察院領乾心變成不做事事實上監察院現在就是領乾心不做事然後呢"},{"start":10922.95,"end":10951.503,"text":"不只是領甘心不做事領甘心還當東廠那說真的那立法院還怕立法院刪他的業務費跟出國費嗎同樣的道理啊今天不跟你講什麼憲政體制上監察院的存廢我們就講現在就講現狀你監察院到底交出什麼讓大家買業的成績監察院的核心任務就是監督政府監察院的核心任務就是監督政府"},{"start":10952.284,"end":10978.995,"text":"在監督執政者上面陳局領導的這個監察院請問過去這些年到底做了什麼事情我只看到高永成我只看到你們在當東廠我看到你們今天遇到大官就躲然後遇到小弟就打然後甚至專打在野黨啊專打這個跟民進黨可能有監督的其他的力量跟權力啊這種情況之下"},{"start":10980.034,"end":10987.836,"text":"耳奉耳辱民脂民膏說真的山你們也是為你們好免得你們造孽太多啦"},{"start":10988.952,"end":11013.726,"text":"讓我們今天百姓辛辛苦苦斬鋸下來交給政府的納稅錢我們今天幫他節省一點點所以監察院不要說什麼今天刪了業務費出國費就變成領乾心不做事你早就不做事還一直當東廠刪也是剛好所以我的建議還是跟國昌兄一樣啦既然沒有共識就保留吧謝謝"},{"start":11017.808,"end":11041.18,"text":"我們第二案到第13案基本上是8跟9是本來我們在第一案的時候就已經說好要保留了在檢列的部分除了第二案跟第四案之外其實是減400萬那一樣是保留還是說這400萬的部分可以討論出一個結果"},{"start":11050.81,"end":11070.922,"text":"本幕預算提案第2案到第13案就均保留我們後續可能就是要加快一點速度不然會審不完或是大家有同意我們也可以今天整到時間到我們也可以之後再擇期但是可以的話我們盡量就讓這個"},{"start":11074.38,"end":11076.322,"text":"提案委員黃偉元說明"},{"start":11093.924,"end":11107.975,"text":"再度重申台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們認為就目前在監察院他在整個功能上面飽受社會強烈質疑的情況之下我們針對"},{"start":11109.256,"end":11129.131,"text":"有關於監察院就財產申報的部分就古蹟維護的部分的經費我們願意支持其他的部分我們都主張刪除因此在第二幕有關於議事行政的部分台灣民眾黨黨團的提案內容是全數刪除"},{"start":11136.223,"end":11146.294,"text":"那羅委員第17案是您提的其實大概理由都差不多了所以就是針對這個14125國際監察事務活動經費編列1187萬5000元全部剪裂全部刪除以上"},{"start":11162.711,"end":11190.053,"text":"就會議時間部分我們今天是一整天我剛剛口誤但是我們下午還有一個國安基金的審查會議所以我們還是一樣就是說今天是不是對是不是說我們延長到處理完畢對還是要另定期看大家的想法就"},{"start":11191.397,"end":11207.818,"text":"對,我們後面加快一點,我們還是今天把它審完好不好?黃委員我同意今天把它處理完,因為其實剛剛主席在場的所有的官員,大家其實都清楚的看得出來,三個黨團"},{"start":11209.281,"end":11232.221,"text":"在有關於監察院預算上面各有各自的政治主張跟政策上面的立場那我們今天在這邊很難有什麼實際上面的共識那我們也不願意透過表決的方式來處理這個事情那大概就這個案子就走下去嘛如果能夠出現難得的共識"},{"start":11233.422,"end":11247.327,"text":"我覺得很好沒有辦法也不用強求那就到協商的時候再一併處理因為這個已經不是說好像針對細項的部分大家在爭執所謂細項的部分大家在爭執就是說"},{"start":11251.048,"end":11271.199,"text":"你這個錢邊這樣是不是太高是不是太腐爛有料費是不是太高是不是要再降低一點因為我覺得在監察院的預算上面所產生的增值並不是在這個層次上而是有根本立場上面的差異所以我是不是就建議說我們還是就順著"},{"start":11272.259,"end":11284.034,"text":"今天召委都已經排案了那我們就順著把它走下去沒有辦法有共識就沒有辦法有共識那我們也都尊重不要用強行表決的方式來處理這個問題"},{"start":11287.328,"end":11308.684,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在就做這個會議宣告呃呃程序宣告那上午的會議進行至本日議程所列事項處理完畢為止吼那後續再麻煩大家能夠加快一些審查的節奏吼那因為我這邊我也是覺得可以的話就不要用表決方式處理啦那我們就盡量大家能夠好好溝通好"},{"start":11313.871,"end":11322.331,"text":"那請問一下我的部分我就不再補充那請問機關就14案到17案有沒有有沒有回應"},{"start":11323.427,"end":11340.439,"text":"好謝謝主席14案到17案是議事業務的部分那總共編了1856萬最主要是我們明年有成辦一個Apple的會議就是泛太平洋地區的監察室的一個活動那這個是750萬那其他的就是我們參加各種會議國際會議的這個議事業務還有我們本來需要的議事業務所以這個第14案全數刪除這個我們恐怕會有困難"},{"start":11353.148,"end":11354.229,"text":"第14案到第17案"},{"start":11380.816,"end":11406.25,"text":"我們均保留,請問各位委員是否同意?可以齁,中稍微,可以嗎?我們就保留。好,那我們14案到第17案就予以保留。那我們現在審查第18案到第23案就有關第三目,調查巡查業務部分。好,那請提案人,各位委員有沒有要補充?"},{"start":11410.334,"end":11412.599,"text":"第19案是臺灣民眾黨黨團我代表黨團的提案"},{"start":11420.134,"end":11445.605,"text":"那針對第6款第一項第三目調查巡迴業務的這個部分我是非常主張監察院自己把監察院巡迴監察實施要點監察院巡迴監察辦法這一些該刪除的東西自己都廢了這個是監察院自己就可以處理法規的事項之前我們監察院的秘書長"},{"start":11447.247,"end":11464.405,"text":"在當立委的時候他有大力主張這些都是監察院自己就可以處理掉廢除的事項搞這些巡迴大家忙得要死那要求監察院自行把它處理掉嘛"},{"start":11465.049,"end":11486.049,"text":"那監察院如果他不願意自己處理掉那沒關係我們下個會期法案會期的時候再徹底的檢討監察法裡面相關的規定那因此針對有關於第三目調查巡迴業務的部分所列的1571萬4千元台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是全部刪除"},{"start":11491.869,"end":11519.42,"text":"好 那個 這樣我了解齁 那中召委的提案第23案 因為這是國外旅費的部分 那我們剛在第一案的時候已經保留 那中召委就這個23案先說結論齁 因為既然是同樣的國外旅費 那我剛剛的主張就是通案並通案 送院會少也協商 但是呢 我還是希望機關代表能就我們提案的意旨當中所提到的這些現象"},{"start":11520.24,"end":11545.28,"text":"做一個說明我們才能理解他的合理性在哪裡也就是說最後的處理我同意國外旅費就通案並朝野協商保留宋朝野協商但是我希望就本席在提案要旨當中所提到的這個現象他的原因能夠做出一個機關說明的回應好那機關是否要說明補充說明一下"},{"start":11546.394,"end":11563.292,"text":"好從18案到23案這是有關我們監察巡迴業務那這個部分跟黃委員報告我們現在監察院巡迴監察實施要點已經不適用了這個已經取消我們只剩監察院巡迴監察辦法"},{"start":11566.737,"end":11582.716,"text":"監察本來就是我們重要的職責之一所以現在有繼續在進行當中過去我確實在當立委的時候有建議要減少事實上監察院也做了地方的巡查由三次改為兩次但是我們有討論過是不是還要再減少"},{"start":11585.218,"end":11607.873,"text":"這個部分委員有不同的意見因為最主要的原因是因為到地方上民眾都積極要陳情所以現在剪下來恐怕還有困難那其他的部分就是剛剛鍾佳斌委員所提到的這件之前提到的這個部分就是有關人數的部分我們會後會給鍾委員這個人數那另外就是針對這個23案是"},{"start":11615.278,"end":11642.534,"text":"國外考察履備部分就是原來就主席已經處理過了我們就尊重這個主席的才事以上報告好謝謝那這樣的話是不是我們第三目第三目的調查巡查業務預算案號第18案到第23案均勻保留好想說大家沒有共識嗎這均勻保留是有各位委員是有同意"},{"start":11644.845,"end":11665.24,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們審查第24案第4目財產申報業務這部分是我所提出來的我是認為說因為這段時間的財產業務申報的這個業務是有增加但是增加的緣額這個"},{"start":11669.619,"end":11692.614,"text":"平均的那個差額動輒就達到預算原額的7到8%所以這個部分我認為說在酬金啦在旅費啦等等這都增加不少那是不是要請這個監察院能夠再與審酌那這部分呢我個人是提案是就"},{"start":11694.912,"end":11696.916,"text":"的預算數是82萬那如果"},{"start":11704.112,"end":11723.066,"text":"監察院可以在3個月內向我們提出專案報告 經過我們同意就可以動之 有關第二次事案的部分 機關這邊有沒有辦法同意我是不是說明一下 主席提案 老實講現在財產申報業務 我們負擔非常非常沉重"},{"start":11726.708,"end":11740.533,"text":"那有兩個困難點第一個就是財產申報業務這是陽光事法裡面包括政治獻金包括財產申報包括利益衝突迴避這是陽光事法所規定的所以我們在組織員的編制上並沒有辦法"},{"start":11742.565,"end":11756.898,"text":"所以我們是用行政院專案給我們約聘人員我們用這樣來補充但是特別是111年因為現在把縣市議員也要財產申報所以我們整個工作量是增加非常非常大"},{"start":11757.839,"end":11760.081,"text":"工作量增加非常非常大我們是不是請這個主席這個部分可以考慮不要再踩尖我們的那個我們的預算因為財產申報這個卸債確實非常困難那包括立聰我們去年跟我們今年跟這個行政院"},{"start":11775.217,"end":11800.592,"text":"因為有很多立冲的宣導他們不是很清楚所以有很多被我們罰款那立冲的部分我們在今年包括機關邀請的或是我們自己辦的就超過350場以上所以這個部分請不要再刪減我們的預算以上我們不是就是說跟秘書長說明一下我們這部分主要是凍結而且我這個金額是"},{"start":11802.751,"end":11811.143,"text":"我金額是82對82萬所以金額也不高那是不是你們可以同意而且我這是凍結向你們提交報告而已"},{"start":11812.282,"end":11831.399,"text":"我也知道這個業務是很繁重的是這樣啦 跟主席報告一下因為我們其實最主要是人員用在這個借鑒的相關的部分是不是凍結那我們提書面報告就好啦因為我們專案報告那應該沒問題嘛 那這個我們是不是就通過凍結我們提書面報告這樣好不好 達成一個共識這是我的提案啊"},{"start":11833.92,"end":11837.602,"text":"我原本的提案是說提出專案報告並經同意那你是不是說你提書面"},{"start":11862.205,"end":11885.77,"text":"那在同意上面是不是比較有風險?是不是?那我們如果專案報告我們還有一個溝通的機會因為是這樣啦就是說因為我們剛剛講講得很清楚我們現在人員困難碰在哪裡嘛那這個我們提出來即使專案報告我能講的也是這些話而已啦那是不是這個部分可以讓我們用書面報告那就遵照主席的意思就凍結就凍結吧那個中委"},{"start":11888.935,"end":11897.038,"text":"主席 機關代表李秘書長 這個是在我們的預算書的第41頁 它這裡是屬於財產申報業務 那麼該目的預算總額是795萬8千 那目前我們討論的是公職人員財產申報 這裡的預算編列是682萬2千"},{"start":11910.542,"end":11919.311,"text":"那麼儘管目前這個委員提案的內容是去掉尾數這邊說要檢驗82萬那事實上我剛剛看了一下這個內容其實這裡面都是業務費那只是說委員的提案內容的說明說"},{"start":11930.513,"end":11949.394,"text":"監察院有增加公職人員財產申報的相關預算的情勢一直在增加那麼因為這是根據第6條財產申報第6條新增業務所以這個業務量一直在增加但是增加原額下為足額經用人數占比偏高那這裡一含著好像提案委員認為"},{"start":11950.922,"end":11979.933,"text":"有真的因為新增了第6條暫時冒法的業務後監察院有增加緣額嗎那剛剛秘書長的說明是說他們緣額沒有辦法增加啊他們沒有增加編制緣額是該行政院另外同意給予約聘戶人力那約聘戶人力呢這個就不是屬於機關的編制緣額也不是預算緣額這是要業務費那如果這個業務費不能支用那這些聯員就領不到薪水啊就不能辦理"},{"start":11981.155,"end":12002.216,"text":"公職人員財產商貿的業務所以表面上這個凍結是凍他的尾數事實上講得更白一點就是凍結那些非公務人員編制內的約聘務人員我們一般都稱為專案人力他們的薪資那這樣的薪資我們去凍他有何意義"},{"start":12003.53,"end":12026.391,"text":"那如果說是要順便報告使得動資那本行我覺得可以接受或許提案委員想知道他們這個財產申報這些人員如何辦理業務的但是如果還要專案報告我就不能理解要去聽取這些專案約聘戶人力他們的心知知領這些薪酬去辦理這些財產申報業務的意義在哪裡"},{"start":12030.858,"end":12033.059,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管．收支"},{"start":12049.461,"end":12069.042,"text":"是要專案報告或者是書面我覺得我剛剛思考一下也沒有必要堅持啦但是因為他背後畢竟還是有一個要同意嘛對不對那你今天如果我剛剛我本來的想法很簡單就是說你們來我們有多一個討論的機會那如果說你們我不知道你們的想法啦因為"},{"start":12070.413,"end":12084.786,"text":"我不是說胡亂去凍結你們的這個因為我也知道財產申報在國際透明的標準下對台灣是有一定的幫助所以我也雖然說財產申報的效果沒有那麼好我自己"},{"start":12085.467,"end":12100.118,"text":"我自己財產申報了20幾年我個人一直認為財產申報的這個規定其實是處罰記憶力不好的人不是處罰犯罪犯罪人每個都很清楚都知道把錢藏在一線奇怪沒有我在說我刑事偵辦案件的"},{"start":12101.439,"end":12118.313,"text":"請尊重我也辦了11年的樹攤那很多時候災難申報變成是在處罰記憶力不好的人那當然沒有關係因為這個對於國家透明度來說在這世界上是有它的幫助的所以我不會認為災難申報不需要存在我也很支持只是說我對這個數額的部分"},{"start":12120.373,"end":12142.466,"text":"我才會以凍結的方式為之那如果說你們堅持說一定不要專案報告的話你們一定要做書面對不對就書面嘛那我也OK但是就是說畢竟還是要經過同意後嘛所以我不知道機關你們的想法如果你們要堅持那你可以跟我說答案"},{"start":12143.755,"end":12158.616,"text":"跟主席報告啦,這個書面報告如果沒有交付審查就是書面報告就可以啦那這個部分我剛才說明過因為我們確實碰到困難就是這樣那我們提供比較詳細完整的書面報告給主席好那沒問題齁那這樣我們就"},{"start":12163.622,"end":12191.609,"text":"我們這個我同意就是說其他就不變了第4幕財產申報業務提案號第24案我們凍結82萬的部分我們就針對這個凍結提案的要求依審查會議的決議就是提出書面報告那經同意後才可以凍資有還經同意嗎我們都提交書面報告就使得凍資"},{"start":12192.844,"end":12209.565,"text":"因為提交書面報告還要經同意後 那我們要如何同意委員會是合意的要如何同意沒有啊就是看大家的意見啊那所以我才說嘛我所以本期說如果連這些臨時連員的酬金在處理受理財產申報的酬金你凍結"},{"start":12211.141,"end":12229.073,"text":"我先提個我就不能理解為什麼凍結他們的酬金那如果說你希望看他們怎麼支用那提個書面報告我覺得OK但是提個書面報告之後還要經過同意後才能凍資那這些約聘戶人力他們的薪酬需要我們用這個方式同意後才能領薪水"},{"start":12230.174,"end":12252.722,"text":"三六百我看看六百八十二萬二千的八十二萬的籌金我們要給他凍結要經過同意我還是要跟表達我們不能理解這樣的提案對不起剛好召委就是提案委員我不能理解我們去對這些人員非編制的非正式人員的他們的籌金業務費受理財產申報我們要凍結的目的"},{"start":12257.023,"end":12286.118,"text":"順便報告我接受就是瞭解他怎麼支用但是他同意後才能動之動人家的薪水要你同意不能理解好謝謝總委員幫機關講那麼多話那沒關係因為這樣我尊重總委員的發言也一定尊重總委員的提案內容但是我不認同總委員的說法那也請總委員尊重我的提案就好那您的不同意意見是你的堅持嘛那我們就我想說今天我們就是"},{"start":12288.108,"end":12315.829,"text":"對,不是不是,就機關的部分,就是看機關,你不要對機關下指導旗啦好,就是就機關的部分,那我這邊我的想法就是我剛那個秘書長說的,你說提書面報告就好那這個部分我覺得沒關係,我也可以接受那是不是說就按照我之前的提案這個提出書面報告然後經過同意後,使得動之這部分"},{"start":12317.17,"end":12344.636,"text":"我再跟主席補充報告啦其實跟原額沒有關係啦那最主要是我們增加的這個業務費用啦因為我們業務增加嘛所以業務費用我就等你們的說明沒問題就等你們的說明還有同意又使得動之嗎這個用詞不同喔我也當過召委啊我沒審過預算啊主席不能矇混過關提出書面報告後使得動之這是很清楚的我們的慣用語提出書面報告後今同意又使得動之"},{"start":12345.916,"end":12362.061,"text":"你還可以再加上一個專案報告但是如果你不加專案報告還是要經過同意我們當召委還是要排案所以還要當召委如果等到年底才有時間排案我們剛剛已經講書面報告了同意後死的公司這個同意這個同意你剛剛有唸了同意了你要堅持同意那同意要怎麼同意要委員會同意啊要列報告四項啊那如果經委員會同意我們反對啊我反對啊"},{"start":12375.307,"end":12375.647,"text":"主席發言"},{"start":12391.141,"end":12407.937,"text":"我不能發言嗎?我現在在跟機關討論那請你不要插嘴就機關部分我當然是非常希望說你們提出來的報告讓我們看了大家都非常滿意啦我們當然是希望這樣那我也說明我的立場我這個人個性我不會去報復性或惡意性的去做任何"},{"start":12408.718,"end":12410.199,"text":"我剛已經說明了我們能講的就是這些非常簡單的事情"},{"start":12434.758,"end":12459.596,"text":"還是說本案就保留好了就先這樣好了我看就不要再談下去了啦我看這個大家討論沒有結果談是浪費大家時間而已那我們現在審查第25案到第35案第5幕國家人權業務部分那我們是請提案的黃國昌委員先說明"},{"start":12461.038,"end":12480.735,"text":"謝謝主席針對有關於監察院在推動所謂的國家人權業務我必須要老實講當初在設這個所謂的國家人權委員會的時候台灣社會是很期待但問題是實際上面運作的結果過去這幾年來在社會上面"},{"start":12485.979,"end":12512.768,"text":"到目前為止民怨已經報表的從司法人權從被害者人權從勞動人權甚至連公務員最基本的人權我們看到的是國家人權委員會辦一些大敗敗的活動非常的會但實際上面實際上面對於真正人權的落實實際上面"},{"start":12514.815,"end":12531.343,"text":"所做出來的效果慘不能讀那不過在這個國家人權業務的這個幕下面他們編的預算是一億一千八百二十五萬六千元但是我們"},{"start":12532.463,"end":12548.437,"text":"在這個項目下面我們認為再給這個人權相關的業務給他們一些鼓勵激勵的空間所以在這個業務上下我們並沒有全部刪除我們刪除8500萬以上說明那我們接著請田安的羅委員說明"},{"start":12560.626,"end":12587.723,"text":"我覺得所謂的國家人權委員會簡直已經是後花圓化變成陳菊玩耍委員會大拜拜很會辦請問對我們的國家人權進步有任何的幫助嗎第一個最近公務員被霸凌公務員的人權問題像剛剛國常委員講的我們監察院這麼多年來你有關心公務員被霸凌問題過嗎沒有啊"},{"start":12591.325,"end":12614.615,"text":"那今天在講說你的監察院我看你們最重視的業務是什麼就是逐步廢除死刑啊所以我跟你講他不但是陳菊後花園委員會他也是陳菊廢死委員會啊台灣民意80%以上反對廢除死刑結果我們要花1億1825萬然後養一個陳菊後花園委員會養一個陳菊廢死委員會"},{"start":12621.906,"end":12622.667,"text":"林思敏不在"},{"start":12643.004,"end":12658.872,"text":"翁曉琳委員林思敏委員因為我有共同聯署所以我在這邊幫她講一下在國家人權業務的部分主要是針對媒體政策及業務宣導費從110年到114年度每年都是提高它的業務宣傳費用可是112年度的保留比率是達到27.8%大概200多萬雖然說這個"},{"start":12672.839,"end":12686.814,"text":"媒體宣傳的費用的目的是為了強化機關職能保障人權推廣人權教育可是事實上這樣的預算執行成效不彰而且呢也沒有達到應該要發揮的媒體宣傳的這個目的所以呢實際的編列有"},{"start":12689.276,"end":12710.423,"text":"復編之餘因此這裡就是說這個現在趕主決議了本來是原簡列150萬元然後那接下來呢第29案裡面同樣的也是針對媒體業務宣導費用的部分那麼看起來就是監察院他的沒宣的招標的情況集中在特定的廠商光是4家廠商就"},{"start":12711.553,"end":12722.818,"text":"取得25件的標案占比高達64.1%然後從此也沒有去檢討整個媒訊的效果所以在這裡的話也是凍結150萬元那我可以接下來繼續就我的報告那繼續就我的部分來說的話就是在人群業務的費用下面其實監察院他有"},{"start":12739.019,"end":12763.183,"text":"議員．議員．議員．議員"},{"start":12764.434,"end":12787.458,"text":"然後在31案的裏面則是針對國家人權委員會也是補助國內民間的各個團體人權相關團體可是這些名單也不清楚活動內容也散見各處根本就不容易讓外界去了解到底做了些什麼事情然後也不立監督所以我這裡就提出刪除預算200萬並且凍結50%"},{"start":12791.257,"end":12794.422,"text":"然後等到監察院將111年到113年的所有的合作的團體計劃經費等等資料會整完畢之後三個月內向我們提出書面報告才可以動之"},{"start":12806.312,"end":12810.414,"text":"第32案的話則是針對國家人權委員會協助人權受害者的這個議題雖然說這確實是也應該協助人權受害者可是他的執行內容有待釐清對於所謂的人權受害者的定義協助方式人次等等這些資訊都沒有公開那監察院應該予以說明所以我這裡就是提出刪除"},{"start":12829.603,"end":12832.927,"text":"逐減預算25萬並且凍結50%也是請監察院3個月內向司法法制委員會提出書面報告之後．時可以凍結。那麼33案的部分"},{"start":12843.42,"end":12851.106,"text":"則是國家人權委員會也是今年編列預算說要強化監察院的無障礙友善人權環境然後每年預算都編了差不多1100多萬特別是在於這個什麼陳情申訴業務系統功能的擴充無障礙友善人權環境的相關資訊設備所需經費可是呢這些內容為什麼每年都要編而且內容不是很清楚那所以在這裡的話"},{"start":12871.521,"end":12894.219,"text":"這個我就是本期也是提出要刪減減列400萬然後凍結預算25%要求監察院要在3個月內要就他的這個執行的細項內容執行辦法經費規劃等等這些說明完備之後的提出書面報告是可以凍支然後接下來34案的部分則是針對"},{"start":12899.133,"end":12922.167,"text":"監察院的國家人權委員會也是每年編了上千萬元用於人權教材人權教材的開發編譯製作及人權教育推廣活動那112年113年都是編了都是這個上千萬元不過他實際上的推廣的成果成效如何而且其實很多的人權的資料他不是不變的為什麼要每年都要重複的這個編列這個"},{"start":12925.449,"end":12943.048,"text":"事實上計畫內容並不清楚所以在這邊本席也提出要三結五百萬元並且凍結50%然後等到監察院三個月內向司法法制委員會提出書面報告後才可以凍值以上我大概講完了嗎對好一直到34好那OK從這位"},{"start":12949.119,"end":12964.607,"text":"本席跟提案委員吳世耀委員我們有一個35案那30案當然目前我們後來有跟改為主決議但是因為我們提案的內容還是要求要做說明那因為我們本案大家可以參照預算書第43頁是關於國家人權業務當中"},{"start":12968.869,"end":12977.712,"text":"他的原木的金額是高達1億1825萬6千元那我們針對的是教育推廣交流這當中是3803萬6千元在這個向下我們針對一般事務費3212萬6千元的部分我們去做一個檢討那這個3212萬6千元我們是針對其中說明欄的阿拉伯數字第三那麼"},{"start":12998.486,"end":13021.938,"text":"辦理人權教材開發編譯製作以及後辦人權教育推廣活動所需要的經費就是這當中的1097萬6千元這個向下因為這裡包含媒體政策及業務宣導費用300萬但是我們針對的是其中的不是300萬的部分是1097萬6千元當中扣除300萬的部分我們針對的是海報展"},{"start":13022.618,"end":13048.835,"text":"在海報展我們推論是在說明欄當中的這個向下就是一般事務費當中所關於推廣活動的1097萬6千元不包含那300萬內容當中我們要求凍結50萬那理由是說人權委員會為了鼓勵各界參與人權相關活動每年都有辦理人權海報的設計競賽那既然是每年辦理"},{"start":13049.355,"end":13077.426,"text":"我們當然希望他能夠持續提高他的效益那鑑於如此在去年是世界人權宣言的75週年那分別在臺北臺南高雄辦理了75年的海報特展也創造了高達70萬以上的參展人次但是比較遺憾的是在高雄市的部分因為本期也在南部我們看到的這個參展人數是相對的大幅減少非常可惜所以我們希望"},{"start":13078.386,"end":13093.681,"text":"國家人權委員會針對每年要經常辦理的人權海報的設計競賽活動既然有要做推廣讓民眾來參與那南部的部分要如何的提升我們針對過去的預算執行提出這個要求那本來我們是要求要凍結50萬那麼現在我們同意改為3個月內向我們委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":13100.607,"end":13106.873,"text":"希望機關代表同意回應我們對於人權海報的推廣活動能夠提供更好的效益因為剛剛您做了一個宣告就是我們今天的會議時間進行到所有提案處理完畢為止因為上午我們已經超過12點了"},{"start":13125.689,"end":13152.875,"text":"我們也不能預期這個審查還會進行到什麼時候那基於今天的天氣較冷希望我們的工作人員可以先給與會的出列席人員午餐的便當大家可以邊用餐邊進去審查以便維持體力以上建議謝謝最後中召委員那個建議我覺得很棒就是說請議事人員就照這樣處理那我們也是加快腳步趕快把它審完那請問一下"},{"start":13155.558,"end":13172.278,"text":"陳委員主席雖然我不是本委員會但是我們第二輪也會提出我在這裡先想說明說幾件事情有關這個人權的部分基本人權裡頭這個是包括表達意見和言論自由的意見那在落實到我們的憲法裡頭的人民的這個權利裡頭"},{"start":13173.499,"end":13194.635,"text":"其中有一個是人民秘密通訊之自由那我想瞭解就是說國家人權委員會在我們金台院底下針對今年5月27號這個有這個民進黨的公那時候的公政策執行長王一川現在我們王委員在媒體公開宣稱說就是可以這個用通訊這個訊號來"},{"start":13197.296,"end":13222.893,"text":"這個瞭解民眾是青鳥還是小草還是凱達格蘭大道上面的群眾這件事情不知道監察委員監察院這一邊有沒有監察委員提出主動的這個報告或是調查來有沒有提出主動的調查來保護我們國人這個不受這個秘密通信不受這個侵犯的這個自由這是最基本的一個人權不知道監察委員在這一方面"},{"start":13223.573,"end":13233.708,"text":"有沒有做任何的動作或者是只是辦一些海報啊畫畫海報啊辦辦活動啊貼貼標語啊這樣留意形式的活動可以請主席先先這個"},{"start":13238.075,"end":13265.233,"text":"就是我想詢問監察院針對這個5月17日王逸川民進黨的政策中央政策執行長在這個媒體上公開宣稱說可以用訊號來監控百姓就是知道他是什麼青樓還是小草還是凱達哥還是什麼這個部分不知道監察委員及這個國內我們對國家人權這個保障方面有沒有監察委員提出主動要求要調查這件事情因為這嚴重侵犯也侵犯我們憲法上的基本權利"},{"start":13268.034,"end":13292.532,"text":"監察院只是流於行事 貼貼辦辦海報活動啊 談談標語啊 辦一些什麼說不定是演唱會啊這一類的 實際的保障人權的動作有做嗎 這件事情想請教 監察院針對這個部分因為我們剛剛是說全部問完以後 請他們一起回答 那就麻煩監察院這邊就剛剛各個委員以及陳玉珍委員所提出來的問題亦回答"},{"start":13293.902,"end":13310.449,"text":"好,謝謝主席。針對陳玉珍委員的提問我先回答。監察院依照憲法的規定我們的職責是針對公務人員跟公務機關。王逸川作為民進黨部政策會執行長,他不是公務人員。"},{"start":13311.269,"end":13338.388,"text":"他也不是民進黨也不是公務機關所以不在我們的調查範圍之內那現在他是公務人員嗎?現在是廣義的公務人員嗎?立法院立法委員也不是我們調查的對象民意代表不是我們調查的對象那針對這個民間隊這件事情如果有提出舉發也不在你們的人權保障範圍的...舉發要具體舉出在哪裡什麼事情那如果是民間對象就不是我們調查的範圍就不是就對了所以說如果我們看到到"},{"start":13339.469,"end":13342.27,"text":"我跟陳委員說明我們只對公務人員跟公務機關我跟陳委員報告"},{"start":13366.741,"end":13368.422,"text":"我現在說明監察院裡面有所謂的國家人權委員會他是我們底下的一個單位他負責人權事項他的對象不只公務人員你聽我講完"},{"start":13382.592,"end":13411.106,"text":"但是在各案監察院的處理我們只處理公務人員跟公務機關所以包括剛剛羅志強委員所提的霸凌案我們有調查46個我們只能針對各案來調查那不是公務人員不是公務機關我們沒辦法調查所以我告訴你嘛關於公務員被霸凌或是其他的事情的話各有各的主管機關他不是監察院主管"},{"start":13412.226,"end":13438.055,"text":"我現在請教是在國家人權這個業務下面有國家人權委員會吧這個委員會沒有辦法針對這個人民的基本秘密通訊的這個他沒有辦法針對王一川這件事情做掉什麼我已經說明了很清楚了那很好那我在第二輪因為我們本席不是司法委員但是我在下一次提案因為這樣表示真正發生我講我的看法"},{"start":13438.575,"end":13466.169,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13467.712,"end":13481.762,"text":"剛剛其實在第一案的時候還甚至就監察院的功能都在討論不是就人權委員會請問一下機關這邊還有沒有要回答其他委員剛剛的提問有關25萬到35萬這個是有關我們國家人權委員會的一個預算的編列那幾個問題我跟各位報告"},{"start":13493.531,"end":13502.277,"text":"這有關教材的部分剛剛翁小林委員關心到的事實上我們跟國教院合作我們總共有14套教材另外跟保訓會合作有14個課程還有3個podcast另外現在各機關也分別針對他們機關的行使權利希望我們協助來做這個人權教材包括現在正在進行的是警政署這個是第一個說明第二個部分剛剛公務員霸凌的部分"},{"start":13523.131,"end":13532.475,"text":"我已經說得很清楚公務員霸凌的真正的主管機關是行政院還有考試院的保訓會並不是監察院那監察院只能針對個案來查我們查過46案那另外有關這個其他這個剛剛講的海報設計展其實海報設計展有很大的迴響那今年我們還擴大向海外徵稿"},{"start":13547,"end":13550.724,"text":"包括總共真的1000多件包括獲獎的都還有香港的人還有來自馬來西亞的都有來參加我們的設計展至於剛剛鍾嘉斌委員所提到的展覽的部分確實我們發現今年在展覽的地點的選擇上是比較不恰當的"},{"start":13572.504,"end":13582.956,"text":"這個部分展覽的地點我們會在明年度我們會做比較適當的選擇最好是這個大家都到的了的地方而且不是一個封閉性的場地這樣會比較理想至於這個25萬黃委員所提的這個是"},{"start":13589.242,"end":13592.744,"text":"以去年加拿大的訪問來提今年的預算不過這個三列國家人權委員會業務8500萬這個我們國家人權委員會就沒有辦法運作了國家人權委員會依照組織法第二條我們相關規定有9項業務要推動這個我們持續在推動當中所以這個部分我們確實有困難"},{"start":13611.013,"end":13634.239,"text":"那其他的部分翁曉琳委員提到的這個合作的名單這個得標的廠商事實上並沒有翁曉琳委員所提的那個重複的部分或是集中在一個兩個公司的問題這個我們都可以提供具體的採購案還有具體的合作案的名單給貴會委員以上報告"},{"start":13640.237,"end":13660.482,"text":"請問各位委員就監察院的報告有沒有其他意見就保留吧我想說大家一致也不一致那是不是除了第28案跟第35案是改為主決議嗎2829嗎不是吧"},{"start":13667.233,"end":13669.434,"text":"29案林委員有同意修正文字"},{"start":13693.945,"end":13709.432,"text":"我們是改數字吧28、29都是動150這個已經取得29啦28改組決議29是動150我們同意林委員的"},{"start":13723.753,"end":13730.42,"text":"如果你同意的話我當然沒有意見啊那這個就並委員會的決議嘛對因為我剛剛那個講法是對你們比較有利吧是"},{"start":13736.209,"end":13738.93,"text":"第5幕國家人權業務提案第25案至第35案"},{"start":13762.556,"end":13779.344,"text":"第28跟第35案改為主決議那其餘預算提案25至27、29至34均於保留好那我們接著處理第6目一般建築及設備提案案號第36至第39"},{"start":13782.226,"end":13809.581,"text":"主席我不是要發言我只是要請這個監察院是不是因為本期在審預算的時候他們提供資料還有剛剛的表回答也很重要針對這個媒體政策及業務宣導費三年招標請有4家廠商取得25表案的這個部分請把資料送到我的辦公室好嗎我們會提供給司法委員再麻煩監察院好那接下來我們就處理36到39那請提案的委員黃國昌說明"},{"start":13811.92,"end":13812.783,"text":"然後那個第"},{"start":13814.765,"end":13835.358,"text":"6幕的第一節營建工程的部分他們編列的預算是1699萬那我們看實際上面的內容真的有一些比如說像古蹟維護消防的需求這個我們同意所以在這一款的第6幕1699萬所編列的項目當中我們只有簡列244萬5000元以上"},{"start":13845.657,"end":13848.779,"text":"第38案要不要一遍說明一下"},{"start":13859.756,"end":13878.102,"text":"38案的部分就是說就有關於換電腦也好啦換通訊也好我看了大概前年去年吧每一年都有編列他們的預算所以我覺得就有關於這項支出的部分我們就支持"},{"start":13879.183,"end":13887.998,"text":"全球資訊網無障礙的改善其他的部分就全部刪除所以他們提的預算是2350萬一千元我們簡列2150萬一千元以上說明"},{"start":13892.304,"end":13911.043,"text":"那我的部分因為跟第三期案因為跟36案那個類似嘛所以我就不多提那那我們麻煩這個監察院陳委員有要說補充的"},{"start":13912.123,"end":13926.271,"text":"這個就是當然我也是第二輪才會提不過對於他們的預算這個營建工編1699萬做這麼多事情感到很驚訝因為我看那個就業安定基金一個餐廳的外牆整修就編了兩千就使用了2839萬"},{"start":13928.55,"end":13928.91,"text":"接下來就請機關就這個部分說明"},{"start":13955.893,"end":13975.338,"text":"謝謝主席 有關這一幕是營建工程 那我跟各位報告就是說我們是國定股機 所以我們每年都會有營建工程 我們是分區分段來實施那有一個問題就是我們碰到股機的時候 我們必須要有動到股機 我們才能夠做其他項目的修繕"},{"start":13978.105,"end":13995.621,"text":"黃委員剛剛提的其他的部分刪掉我們244萬 這其實是我們一個冰水機 76年到現在都已經故障不能使用了 那我們這一個通風管我們要利用古蹟修繕的期間才能夠換這個通風管"},{"start":13997.503,"end":14018.324,"text":"那今年我們因為通風管的變換或是什麼樣我們節省的電的使用程度我們節省了14萬度啦那連立法院的總務處都來問我們怎麼審的那所以我們希望這個部分還是讓我們做還是讓我們做那我們只有而且這個都還要事先送我們資局審查的"},{"start":14019.245,"end":14036.109,"text":"因為我們動到這個古蹟然後要古蹟修繕的時候我們才可以處理這件事情那第二個剛剛提到有關資訊設備那我一開始就說了我們今年的資本門是減少的我們經常門是增加那資本門減少但是為什麼這連續兩年都還有編列這個這個相關的硬體的設備其實很簡單就超越年限的"},{"start":14043.551,"end":14064.806,"text":"現在有規定,今年的規定是你只要2021以前的通通不能使用所以我們必須依照這樣的規定來處理那這個是部分那其他我們最主要的費用都是用在系統的維護上包括我剛剛所說明的我們總共有39個系統那其實15個是有關財產申報的所以這個部分還是希望這個"},{"start":14067.308,"end":14091.198,"text":"這個委員會能夠考量考量我們這個非常非常辛苦所以這個部分還是希望能夠委員會再討論一下以上報告好謝謝那好一樣嘛大家想法差不多那那個中召委就是有關第36到39案的部分予以保留不知道中召委有沒有意見可以嗎好"},{"start":14096.944,"end":14121.509,"text":"第6幕後一般建築及設備預算提案案號第36案至第39案均於保留繼續處理第6款第一項監察院之主決議提案案號第40案至第56案請問就第40案部分我們做文字修正請問一下機關有無意見"},{"start":14139.244,"end":14162.614,"text":"好那沒有意見的話我們就依照修正的通過那第41案請問機關有無意見那我們就專案通過42案機關有無意見應該要保留吧內容有偏頗42案主決內容文字敘述有偏頗在罵國民黨和民眾黨我提案啦不然我二輪也會提出來我先跟他們講"},{"start":14164.898,"end":14178.397,"text":"我們先把遊戲規則建立清楚嘛是在這裡是只要提案委員提案那被監督的部門不管是監察院還是行政院所屬各機關同意就通過那其他黨團都不能置會"},{"start":14180.055,"end":14203.96,"text":"還是說要各個黨團都同意才會通過我們先把遊戲規則講清楚就不要造成紛擾嘛那不要在一個場合的時候說遊戲規則是一套到另外一個場合遊戲規則是另外一套嘛所以先請召委裁示一下就有關於提案的通過不通過是要各個黨團都同意還是提案的"},{"start":14205.441,"end":14230.652,"text":"委員然後跟相對的機關他們同意就可以了我覺得這個遊戲規則的建立蠻重要的啦依照過往的的前例是委員自己可以大家可以討論出一個共識啊那就看大家的共識如何對啊那所以我主張42案保留啊好那那個中委員好"},{"start":14234.496,"end":14240.4,"text":"第42案的部分我們就予以保留第43案文字修正後沒有意見第44案機關有意見"},{"start":14262.944,"end":14284.77,"text":"好那如果機關沒有意見的話那各位委員也沒有意見那我們就依照修正後通過那第45案請問機關有意見那請問各位委員有意見好那沒有的話就依照45案依照文字修正後通過那第46案請問機關有意見好那請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":14288.651,"end":14314.75,"text":"黃委員有沒有意見沒有好那我們就依照主決議通過那第47案請問機關有意見好沒有意見那請問各位委員有意見好那沒有的話就依照修正後通過那第48案請問機關好沒有意見那各位委員有意見那沒有的話就依據修正後通過那49案機關有意見好"},{"start":14319.157,"end":14343.119,"text":"各位委員有意見沒有意見的話依照修正後通過第50案機關有意見沒有意見各位委員有意見沒有的話我們就依據主決議通過第51案是側案第52案請問機關有意見各位委員有意見"},{"start":14345.077,"end":14352.969,"text":"好沒有的話就依據主決議通過好第53案機關有意見好那各位委員有意見"},{"start":14355.788,"end":14377.074,"text":"我有意見這53案我老實講我真的他基本上面是過看起來是要過組決議嘛那現實上面他是包裹著幫他們在議事業務下面下的預算的內容去做支持的意思嘛那因為這件事情我們之前就已經保留了嘛那所以對這個組決議的內容本黨團競表不同意"},{"start":14384.77,"end":14407.699,"text":"好那就53案的部分我們就予以保留好那請問第54案機關有意見那各位委員有意見好那沒有的話我們就依主決議通過好第55案機關有意見那各位委員有意見"},{"start":14409.568,"end":14417.428,"text":"沒有的話第55案就照主決議通過那第56案機關有意見那各位委員有意見"},{"start":14418.581,"end":14427.306,"text":"主決議提案案號第40案至第56案遭案通過部分為41465052545556遭案通過第4434445474849遭修正後通過第51案撤案第4253案保留送協商"},{"start":14447.382,"end":14460.516,"text":"本日議程討論事項已經處理完畢就以下宣告114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分審查完畢提報院會院會討論前需交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳釗偉中線說明"},{"start":14468.663,"end":14488.013,"text":"有關本日議程討論事項通過修正之預算提案請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後送交主席台列入公報記錄通過之決議依例文字修授權主席及議事人員整理本日會議進行到此現在休息謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}