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吳召偉一直堅持說這要經過院會 同意後 核定才可以"},{"start":2184.168,"end":2211.22,"text":"現在剛剛坐在主席位置上的黃總召說得很清楚啊請查照報告案啊所以是當下生效回到院會告知院會如此而已白紙黑字寫在這裡當天具有本委員會出席委員身份的王逸川委員當天被不當無法那個非法剝奪投票資格我要求啊吳釗偉啊"},{"start":2213.653,"end":2231.364,"text":"當天的臨時主席說明那個跟本委員會所有的委員說明一下剛剛議事人員請大家可以參看我們上個禮拜五在院會報告事項第99案"},{"start":2233.069,"end":2252.256,"text":"第99案上面的報告事項的內容是我剛剛已經唸過了那他們是依照民主進步黨立法院黨團含授文者立法院議事處民主進步黨立法院黨團含通知議事處"},{"start":2253.867,"end":2277.257,"text":"發文原推派柯建民委員改派王逸川委員擔任發文的日期是12月4號是12月4號這個是民主進步黨黨團發文給議事處要求改派人員的日期是12月4號那我們上一次由我們的吳宗憲委員擔任"},{"start":2280.68,"end":2291.978,"text":"主席所召開的第一次全體委員會的會議是12月2號我再把時間走說得清楚一點本院議事處"},{"start":2293.544,"end":2314.257,"text":"收到民主進步黨立院黨團函的日期是12月4號那一事處的同仁他們就依法把他列為院會的報告事項那報告事項結束了上個禮拜五針對的這一個報告事項沒有任何委員提出異議"},{"start":2316.141,"end":2327.802,"text":"沒有任何委員提出異議確認完了以後我們目前國家發展基金調查委員會我們的議事同仁在收到本院的議事處"},{"start":2329.609,"end":2344.427,"text":"來函民主進步黨黨團由柯建民委員改派為王毅川委員的函以後我們國家發展基金調查委員會的議事同仁就依照規定今天開會的時候我們發函"},{"start":2346.73,"end":2367.842,"text":"就是依照民主進步黨在12月4號發函給立法院議事處的函那改王玉川委員為民主進步黨黨團推派的委員所以我們今天的開會通知那也沒有發給柯建民委員而是發給王玉川委員那以上說明"},{"start":2369.736,"end":2397.733,"text":"請求發言來請鍾嘉賓委員請在主席位置上的黃總召根據立法院職權實施法46條之一調查委員會之成員由立法院各黨團依其在院會之息事比例推派之並得視實際情況與改派我們的例子法只有這麼清楚簡單明瞭說明了改派的權利是由黨團依實際情況改派"},{"start":2398.686,"end":2414.654,"text":"至於說何時發生效力其實剛剛的解釋不怪現在主席位置上的黃總召那都是議事人員自行的認知我們在現場議事現場已經提出來了是因為當時的臨時主席不受理"},{"start":2416.24,"end":2437.004,"text":"不受理今天我們很清楚知道議事規則當中對於現場議事狀況的處理哪些須以書面為之要多少連署具有完整的規定但是很抱歉例子法46條之一他只有寫明是實際情況予以改派予以改派的權力主體在於黨團當天民主進步黨黨團在現場就以實況發聲為由要求現場的臨時主席處理"},{"start":2445.785,"end":2450.892,"text":"主席引具錯誤的認知說這個需要院會來核定"},{"start":2451.991,"end":2477.9,"text":"不是查照這個可以很清楚的調錄音帶錄影帶都可以看得出來是因為這樣的關係否定了民主金不黨黨團依例執法46條之一依實際當下的情況當日下午2點15分王逸川委員已經具備了屬於行使立法委員職權的合格立法委員也是本黨的成員我們當下要求要予以更換而因為主席拒不受理"},{"start":2478.874,"end":2500.867,"text":"所以剛剛幫忙轉達議事人員宣布的那一段文章是因為在當天的錯誤處理之下民主金管黨團以補救的方式向院會來提出院會根本沒有核定準博的權利他只是事後被告知事後被告知民進黨黨團何時發出的函不影響到這個實際狀況生效的其"},{"start":2509.03,"end":2533.206,"text":"那既然不影響我們是實際狀況改派的期日只以事後的書面告知送交院會由議事出來湊理不影響到我們改派的效力所以我還是要要求當天擔任臨時主席的吳釗偉要為這樣的一個造成院會議事人員這樣的一個瑕疵進行說明"},{"start":2534.747,"end":2557.709,"text":"這嚴重的剝奪了包括王毅川委員的權利也剝奪了民主進步黨黨團根據例子法46條之一依實際情況改派調查委員會成員的權利那麼在這種前提之下當天由於王毅川委員不能夠依法來行使職權致使當日的推舉主席的票選沒有他的選票"},{"start":2559.736,"end":2582.257,"text":"這個選舉無效那更不用通提當日的其他的議事瑕疵當日的臨時主席在宣告投票截止日期時間之後借滿了沒有投票時間借滿都還沒有發出選票居然還可以事後過了投票原定的投票期程之後"},{"start":2583.783,"end":2611.585,"text":"再來開始重新延長投開票的時程這個完全違背了所有立法院的議事尤其關於人事的選舉必須事前告知不然我們開會通知發什麼意思的所以我請求啊由我們的吳昭偉當日的臨時主席為這兩點提出說明第一王逸川委員當日的行使職權的身份被不當的議事處理主席的錯誤沿用剝奪"},{"start":2613.627,"end":2626.924,"text":"應該如何補救?當日因此而產生的選舉瑕疵包括選舉投開票期程未依時間內事前公布這樣的一個選舉並無效力我們要求重新選舉以上"},{"start":2630.254,"end":2654.067,"text":"好,謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那在請莊委員發言以前莊委員你希望我先回覆還是您希望先發言我尊重您的意見我看還是我先講好好,請莊瑞雄委員這個黃國昌委員還有我們在場所有的委員我想有在場吳宗憲委員學法出身林思敏委員學法出身"},{"start":2655.488,"end":2668.599,"text":"黃國昌委員更不代言,其他很多在場都很多具備法學素養,大家都很清楚,什麼叫明顯而重大的一個瑕疵,我就來講,"},{"start":2671.656,"end":2694.804,"text":"立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會當初發文的日期是113年11月29號發文一百一十在備註裏面講得很清楚這一次要選舉本會的召集委員然後他的時間定在會議開始領票時起至下午三點為止"},{"start":2698.426,"end":2724.886,"text":"包含投票跟開票的時間這個書面開會通知講得非常的一個清楚我們第一次國發基金委員會在開會在選召委的時候你說否定到民進黨更換調查委員的理由是說調查委員會的成員按照黨團所提的書面文書那既然是按照書面文書的話那開會通知其實講得很清楚"},{"start":2726.719,"end":2748.11,"text":"現在坐在臺上在主持的黃國昌委員以這個召委這個主席的身份我認為就不適格了這個都可以好好的來做討論了這就法來論法也不涉及到人生的一個攻擊了怎麼說呢那我們發出來的開會通知的書面是連發票到開票"},{"start":2749.295,"end":2772.875,"text":"也就是說你的投票跟開票的時間到3點要去做一個截止我們選出召委的時間已經4點多了所以這個召委的選舉是不是應該比較前面你的資格到底符不符合如果說整個調查委員會要調查別人我們本身就有這麼重大的一個瑕疵那大家都把它當成沒有看見那無視重大瑕疵我們也不顧整個堅持繼續整個議程要繼續這樣搞下去"},{"start":2776.479,"end":2789.29,"text":"我提醒各位啊,大法官4至342號很明顯的指出,明顯重大瑕疵指不帶調查就可以發現的瑕疵也就貼在額頭上的我們今天開這個會議啊,這個會議主席啊我倒認為我們這個法學深厚的黃國昌委員啊,不適格之所以不適格的原因,不是他不懂"},{"start":2800.401,"end":2800.481,"text":"草案"},{"start":2820.761,"end":2848.068,"text":"11月29號發文出來的我們當天第一次的一個開會的時候那到底那個投票有沒有效這我想這個才是一個重點那當然身為國會議員我們王一川委員他本身具備這樣的一個身份那總不會到了今天以後當天在黨團裡面要去整個名單一個更換這是被容許的那我們現在事後再來看這件事情的話"},{"start":2849.368,"end":2871.878,"text":"這個很多值得探討啦但是我倒還是覺得政本清源還是要先討論一下釐清今天的會議主席到底是不是事格當天的選舉是不是明顯而重大的一個瑕疵我想請在場的委員就這一點好好地表達意見謝謝"},{"start":2874.538,"end":2888.71,"text":"非常感謝那個莊瑞雄委員那剛剛針對鍾嘉賓委員以及莊瑞雄委員所提出來的垂詢那有關於我的部分跟委員會的委員報告如下"},{"start":2890.091,"end":2905.613,"text":"我今天之所以會以主席的身份來發出會議通知是因為我收到了立法院議事處的通知他的通知是什麼呢?他的通知是說"},{"start":2907.213,"end":2936.092,"text":"本院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會在12月2號禮拜一舉行第一次全體委員會議選出黃委員國昌為該會召集委員請查照案這個案子在上個禮拜五我們立法院院會的時候已經在列在報告事項的第100案已經報告完畢了"},{"start":2937.352,"end":2953.998,"text":"那當天針對這一百案的報告事項報告給本院的院會那並沒有在場的任何委員來提出異議上個禮拜五針對這個一百案的報告事項確認"},{"start":2957.489,"end":2974.81,"text":"我們國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會在12月2號禮拜一舉行第一次全體委員會議那選出本人為召集委員這件事情並沒有任何委員提出異議那因此"},{"start":2975.831,"end":3000.499,"text":"我們目前這個調查委員會我們相關的議事同仁接到了院會接到了院會議事處這邊的來函了以後就通知我問我說那我們是不是這個禮拜要召開會議那我就依照議事同仁他們所給我的通知這個已經在院會"},{"start":3001.539,"end":3017.625,"text":"已經報告過不好意思那個專委員是不是可以先請我發言完畢因為你都沒有回答我的問題了不好意思我已經在回答你的問題重大瑕疵是不是當然無效嗎如果是明顯重大瑕疵的話上個禮拜五議員會的時候"},{"start":3019.085,"end":3034.557,"text":"各個黨團各個委員都有權力提出異議但我現在這個都不帶主張就是無效啦明顯的重大瑕疵就不得那是不是明顯重大瑕疵恐怕也不是莊瑞雄委員個人主張就算了嘛我現在是剛剛莊委員有垂詢"},{"start":3038.819,"end":3061.186,"text":"選舉到3點結果你4點才投票選出來這個叫做選舉有效是 我要跟莊委員說明的事情上個禮拜五在院會的時候如果莊瑞雄委員或民主進步黨的立院黨團對這件事情有異議的話你們有提出異議的權利但是按照我目前所收到上個禮拜五院會議事錄的整個過程"},{"start":3062.426,"end":3078.539,"text":"以及上個禮拜五在整個院會發生的狀況請容我再說明一次郭昌你這個講法就不對嘛你一個話講那麼多嘛就很簡單嘛明顯重大瑕疵不會因為沒有意義它自然而補正嘛哪有到3點還要結束這4點都選出來你都認為已經是合法的請容我再說明一次是不是明顯重大的瑕疵有沒有您剛剛所講的那個狀況"},{"start":3089.068,"end":3089.368,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":3108.424,"end":3135.249,"text":"我必須要說明的事情你就沒有針對問題回答嘛這個是整個版本的這個地方啊您在發言的時候其實我蠻尊重您的我都沒有打斷您因為主席就有麥克風你愛怎麼發言你最佔優勢因為你沒有回答我的問題為什麼我們投票時間到3點就要結束書面我們表定就是這樣就像我們投票到4點結束你說我5點來了我還可以繼續投"},{"start":3137.284,"end":3144.153,"text":"不對吧不對吧你說認為說因為沒有意義這就自然就補正有天底下有這種明顯重大瑕疵可以自動補正的嗎"},{"start":3146.207,"end":3169.155,"text":"我要說明的事情因為你都沒說明你都沒說明你這一點都沒說明你沒有告訴各在場的委員說為什麼我們表定時間3點要投票跟開票結束而我們4點多才選出召委這樣叫做有算數那你告訴我說這不是我個人的論斷的斷定我個人認知來當標準是不是我個人認知會標準但是也要解釋一下"},{"start":3169.955,"end":3170.896,"text":"非常感謝莊瑞雄委員如同我剛剛跟"},{"start":3192.935,"end":3204.243,"text":"而我們委員會全體的委員所說明的內容一樣我今天之所以會坐在這個地方依照國家發展基金不當投資暨管理"},{"start":3205.589,"end":3222.285,"text":"私職調查委員會我今天之所以會發出會議通知召開這個會議是因為我收到了立法院議事處的來函在上個禮拜五的時候已經選出確認我是這個委員會的召集委員"},{"start":3223.126,"end":3243.685,"text":"我完全是按照院會結束了以後議事組他們的同仁的通知那我相信大家也可以信任我們立法院現在擔任這些委員擔任這個委員會相關的議事同仁他們都是按照議事程序在進行的"},{"start":3244.666,"end":3262.935,"text":"這件事情在院會報告確認完了以後我才發出今天的會議通知至於說莊瑞雄委員針對在第一次召集的時候在會議進行上面您個人意見的表達"},{"start":3263.976,"end":3282.512,"text":"我都尊重但我只是要很完整的跟大家說明今天這個委員會會發出這樣子的會議通知我們完全就是按照院會在報告事項99案100案確認完了以後那議事處的同仁聯絡了"},{"start":3284.914,"end":3305.323,"text":"聯絡了我們這個委員會的議事同仁那議事同仁依照接到院會的通知分別發出了相關的事項所以我們今天才會召開這樣子的委員會那以上做說明好來有請鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":3307.508,"end":3321.936,"text":"謝謝在主席位置上的黃總召其實剛剛本席對於本委員會所提出的詢問當然因為在主席位置上是黃總召但是本席是要求當日擔任臨時主席的吳釗偉來做說明那麼剛剛黃總召的說明顯然有一點誤會我們的議事錄的確認是當下宣達吳不同意見後才確認"},{"start":3337.499,"end":3355.96,"text":"確認議事錄是經過無意後才能確認確認效力向後發生但是我們院會的查照案如果說送到院會的時候有不同意見就由院會取代當時送來的查照的內容重新去認定"},{"start":3356.926,"end":3372.852,"text":"但是如果送到院會的查照案在一開始就有在這之前已經發生的事實瑕疵跟無效不會因為院會沒有人提出異議透過查到的程序就讓他變成合法簡單講王逸川委員他的身份由民進黨黨團改派為國發基金調查委員會的委員這個事實在12月"},{"start":3386.724,"end":3404.897,"text":"的2號當日下午2點15分由民進黨黨員提出後即生效至於在院會的報告案查照的時候報告事項的查照案沒有人異議那麼他本來就生效的效力沒有被推翻"},{"start":3405.888,"end":3432.363,"text":"所以王逸川委員他經民進黨黨團改派為國發基金調查委員會的委員早在12月2號下午2點15分就生效了也沒有在事後的查召案當中被院會重新來認定改變但是12月2號的召委選舉開會通知發出的時間是到下午3點"},{"start":3433.915,"end":3458.176,"text":"結果當日的臨時主席吳宗憲委員宣布的時候是在下午的4點多4點多才宣布這個選舉的結果這樣的一個無效的選舉的事實至此無效的事實不可能在報告事項上的查照過程院會沒有人異議就因此而可以得到更正可以得到重新確認 沒有"},{"start":3459.312,"end":3473.342,"text":"你可以把原來合法生效的事項透過異議重新再做調查變更資原來就無效非法的事項不可能因為在院會的報告查到的時候沒有異議就可以再次得到確認我想這一點剛剛議事的說明"},{"start":3477.224,"end":3497.155,"text":"顯然對於查照報告事項的查照有誤而且還錯誤的引用了藝學上當中藝術錄的宣讀當中那個宣讀的確認要知道藝術錄的效力必須在第二次下次會的報告事項宣讀無意義之後才能得到確認"},{"start":3499.239,"end":3511.623,"text":"議事錄的效力不是在當議事人員該次會結束後書寫完成、寫在會議通知、發出為會議資料就有效力,沒有!必須在下次會議的報告事項應在場處理、無異議確認後,他才使證效力。"},{"start":3516.725,"end":3540.561,"text":"這個跟我們院會的報告事項的查召案是不一樣的我再次強調查召的意思是他發生當下就已經具備效力了除非經過事後的有異議重新處理才能變更那麼一個無效在12月2號下午4點多才發生的選舉無效選舉不可能因為事後的院會因為查召案沒有人異議"},{"start":3541.437,"end":3568.217,"text":"就能夠改變它非法無效的事實那這一點呢不是針對目前在主席位置上的黃總召我針對的是目前在我面前對面的吳宗憲吳昭偉他是當日的臨時主席當日的議事人員專門委員跟主秘都在現在主席位的兩旁當時還要要求臨時主席還要求法治局來做說明還要求議事處來做說明"},{"start":3570.118,"end":3593.223,"text":"顯然的連議事處跟法治局的角色都沒有辦法認清當天的議事處理有沒有合乎議事常規很清楚當日的選舉有沒有逾越了原來事前開會通知所定有效的投票的截止日期如果今天當天的選舉是有效的那中華民國的選舉可怕啦我面對選舉投票到下午4點截止啊"},{"start":3594.926,"end":3601.811,"text":"那超過4年以後的投票有沒有算數?好像有這樣的例外唷有一次公投並大選"},{"start":3603.635,"end":3630.695,"text":"在2018年在臺北市市長的選舉當中因為公投綁大選臺北市的市民很多都在超過了下午4點之後才能夠進入投開票所的圈票欄進行投票但是因為由於我國的選罷法他的取得投票的權利是以在下午4點前進入了投開票所"},{"start":3631.621,"end":3640.448,"text":"在過去實務上認定你縱使沒有進入投開票所你只要進入了投開票所等候排隊的隊伍的隊尾有接上去"},{"start":3641.363,"end":3666.704,"text":"那麼在4點前你抵達那個位置你就可以有權利取得投票直到不管天荒地老你依序排隊到投票取票然後呢完成圈票投票完畢縱使那時候到了晚上7、8點投票是有效的但是沒有哪一個選委會敢宣布他可以禁制將投開票截止時間從4點延後到半夜12點"},{"start":3668.021,"end":3689.472,"text":"我們現在面前當日在作為臨時主席的吳釗偉他居然可以在大辣的當天下午4點多的時候無視於開會通知上所明定的投票截止日時間他就盡致宣告4點多的投開票是有效的而不要忘了當日的開會通知上的議程是在臨時主席上台後當場確認的"},{"start":3697.328,"end":3709.938,"text":"該次的議程該日的議程雖然是由議事人員事前發出但是上面寫的寫的有廢話就拿出來講啦在底下才講廢話啦現在就要講你啦"},{"start":3712.646,"end":3738.474,"text":"當時我們當時的議程當日的議程只有一項本席有當場質疑就是當日的議程當中除了選舉事項之外居然還有討論事項去討論今天我們要討論的運作要點由於本席在當日的質疑當日的臨時主席跟議事人員有接納所以當日的討論事項當中運作要點的草案的討論從討論事項被"},{"start":3741.161,"end":3767.174,"text":"三除因為那個討論事項不是當日臨時主席所宣讀的議事日程所能確認的當日臨時主席吳宗憲召委所宣讀的當日的議程就是議事人員事前發出的開會通知上所列的就是選舉事項而這個選舉事項的起息時間都寫得很清楚而且那樣的一個起息時間的議程也是當下在臨時主席的組織之下當場確認的"},{"start":3769.391,"end":3775.293,"text":"當日主席也沒有經過在時間內經過變更的方式做合法的變更"},{"start":3776.058,"end":3801.236,"text":"所以當日的投票逾越了當日確認的議程的時間當然無效這個選舉無效不會因為現在坐在主席位置上的黃總召因為他是拿到了議事處給他的開會通知他當然不能判斷因為是議事處給他的會議通知上告訴他他是選出來的主席選出來的召委這個不能怪他因為"},{"start":3801.957,"end":3825.155,"text":"他不是那一天破壞選舉否定王逸川委員合法參與身份的始作俑者而當日的始作俑者包括現在在我們面前當日的臨時主席吳仲憲吳昭偉以及錯誤詢問的法治局的相關的主管以及我們議事處的議事人員這個部分一定要追究一個無效的選舉不可能在今天"},{"start":3826.141,"end":3840.547,"text":"被肯認一個民進黨合法有效依照立法院職權條46條之一依實況改派的王逸川委員為本委員會調查委員會委員的身份不可能在事後由院會的查照案"},{"start":3842.505,"end":3865.412,"text":"來定定他的生效時間點他在12月2號下午2點15分民進黨黨團依例之法46條之一提出改派就已經發生院會事後不管會議紀錄何時送達都是在當下就發生不是在查招案無意義之後才發生從不有能力就反駁"},{"start":3868.679,"end":3895.939,"text":"好,謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那針對鍾嘉斌委員剛剛垂詢的事項在說明如下第一個在上個禮拜五我們在院會裡面所處理的國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會的委員民主進步黨黨團改派王逸川委員擔任的這件事情請容我說明一下"},{"start":3897.281,"end":3915.244,"text":"民主進步黨立院黨團發文給議事處發文的日期是12月4號是12月4號在這整個發文的過程跟內容當中我完整的跟大家唸出來因為這個其實立法院公報裡面都有"},{"start":3916.516,"end":3924.504,"text":"1.依據113年11月25日台立院議制第1130704170號函本黨團前逾113年11月27日名利十一之二明制第166號函提交推派名單說明了"},{"start":3942.28,"end":3964.379,"text":"當初民進黨立院黨團提出這個委員會委員的名單是在11月27日第二點原推派委員柯建民為國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會委員改派王逸川委員擔任這個是在說明的第二點"},{"start":3965.66,"end":3993.608,"text":"沒有其他的內容了沒有其他的內容了因為我們目前完全看到的是我們的立法院的院會在報告事項當中忠實的把民主進步黨立院黨團在113年12月4號發函給我們的議事處的內容我剛剛已經清楚的把它給唸出來了在這裡面的內容"},{"start":3994.761,"end":4011.593,"text":"不管是從主旨還是說明民主進步黨立法院黨團所發給議事處的函沒有一點是主張說在12月2號下午幾點的時候當我們這個委員會第一次會議已經開始"},{"start":4014.215,"end":4036.034,"text":"已經開始會議了之後照會議進行到一半要改推派委員那個時候發聲效力這一點的主張在12月4號民主進步黨立院黨團發函給院會發函給我們議事處的內容當中完全沒有提及完全沒有提及那因此"},{"start":4036.815,"end":4058.194,"text":"因此,立法院的議事處依照民主進步黨立院黨團在12月4號所發的這個函也通知了院會,院會把它列入報告事項那我收到了這樣子的通知以後那我就依照民主進步黨立院黨團的這個函"},{"start":4060.756,"end":4066.105,"text":"來發出了今天的會議通知這個是第一點我必須要做的說明至於說"},{"start":4068.499,"end":4096.762,"text":"就第一次在整個選舉的過程當中分分擾擾每一個委員有每一個委員的意見每一個委員有每一個委員的主張那我基本上都是尊重我們上次第一次會議的時候我們的五委員中線他召開會議整個進行的程序因為我現在手上看到的那一天"},{"start":4097.583,"end":4105.729,"text":"在整個會議的過程當中的整個議事程序上面的逐字稿就是說當"},{"start":4110.515,"end":4132.666,"text":"主席宣告說我們現在3點42分是不是說要開始來進行投票一個小時的時候那那個時候中委員嘉賓我現在手上拿到的逐字稿是要求主席定明確的時間好不好"},{"start":4133.895,"end":4153.532,"text":"那個時候中委員嘉賓是要求當時第一次會議的主席吳宗憲委員就投票的時間我現在念逐字稿是你定明確的時間好不好那主席那個時候回應中委員嘉賓他回應的方式是說對"},{"start":4155.914,"end":4171.193,"text":"就4點42分就4點42分那這個時候呢 中委員嘉賓他進一步主張說那5點嘛好不好就定5點嘛就不會有意見嘛"},{"start":4172.394,"end":4187.322,"text":"這是中委員嘉賓那一天發言的內容所以從上次會議的議事錄針對有關於投票時間的這件事情在場的委員大家的確都有發表看法"},{"start":4190.003,"end":4211.944,"text":"那包括剛剛針對有關於投票時間提出他問題的中委員嘉賓我現在並沒有意思要幫吳委員中線去回答上一次會議針對他在認定上面效力的問題因為認定效力上面的問題我剛剛已經說明了"},{"start":4212.685,"end":4226.275,"text":"今天我以主席的身份來發會議通知來召集這一場會議完全是依照院會議事處的人員發給我的函來進行的"},{"start":4226.854,"end":4243.822,"text":"那至於說要回溯上次第一次會議整個會議的實況那我剛剛跟大家所報告的是當上一次的主席說要定投票的時間的時候大家針對投票的時間要怎麼定"},{"start":4244.542,"end":4271.687,"text":"的確有不一樣的看法因為主席本來是說3點40到4點40然後又有委員說那你說一個小時現在42分了是不是就到42分那中委員嘉賓也有主張說是不是就直接到5點就定5點嘛就不會有意見所以上一次在選舉的時間上大家的確是有不一樣的看法"},{"start":4272.327,"end":4296.768,"text":"那不過主席最後就做了宣告從那個時候3點42分一個小時到4點42分那那個時候主席做了這樣子的宣告以後就進行這樣的投票程序那我相信到最後的結果我們的議事同仁也是很辛苦把這樣子的結果報給院會才會在院會裡面向整個院會來進行報告"},{"start":4298.57,"end":4322.395,"text":"那我想我就整個程序做這樣子的說明那至於說那個因為在我們現在目前的議事規則上啦倒還沒有一個委員對另外一個委員提出諮詢或是詢問這樣子的程序我先請教一下那個我們議事同仁應該是沒有這樣的程序吧沒有人可以發言"},{"start":4329.206,"end":4352.872,"text":"所以我必須要尊重就是說剛剛中委員嘉賓有提出這樣子的請求因為在議事程序上真的沒這個程序我沒有辦法說要求或是強迫我們的吳宗憲委員要去回答中嘉賓委員的問題但是只是說"},{"start":4355.72,"end":4375.731,"text":"其他的委員,因為那個中委員剛剛就他要詢問的事項他也詢問了那我也依照院會給我所有的議事文書我大概提出了說明那不曉得其他的委員還有沒有什麼意見好來我們接下來請那個沈博洋委員"},{"start":4378.393,"end":4395.544,"text":"我覺得這件事情我最不懂的地方就是說一開始我們按照議事規則然後呢把這個柯建民委員換成王逸川委員然後只要過了以後3點以前可以投票投票完之後你們要選誰召委基本上結果也不會改變"},{"start":4396.525,"end":4418.455,"text":"就是從頭到尾只要按照原來的程序走其實結果也沒有太大的差別那為什麼不能按照那一個程序走這是我最大的一個疑問那我還是要再講一下我們是在這一個會議根本就還沒有開始之前就已經去跟議事人員講說柯建民我要換成王一川委員"},{"start":4419.415,"end":4445.621,"text":"是他們跟我們講說直接在會議上講的直接在會議上提出然後會議上也提出了一個書面給了當時的臨時主席說要換而那時候王一川委員已經是委員了所以這個照理說我們的程序該做的都做了那做了以後其實對後來的投票不會有任何的影響我們的票數也還是都一樣我覺得按照原來的程序走並沒有那麼困難"},{"start":4446.961,"end":4470.123,"text":"更不要講說剛剛這個黃委員一直在講說是因為議事規則然後選這一天我還是要講像今天我們是12月16號就禮拜一收到這個會議通知然後今天開會我也老實講全台灣都知道現在就是在審前間預算就像隔壁是所有的攝影機現在都在隔壁我跟王逸川是國防外交的委員"},{"start":4471.384,"end":4486.553,"text":"當然也不是說不能開這個時間,但如果今天我們真的因為這樣,前進的預算又那麼的重要,是不是有可能就必須要改派別的委員來做?如果要等到全部的按照剛剛講的那一種方式的話,那請問要怎麼解決現在的難題嗎?"},{"start":4488.254,"end":4513.801,"text":"所以這是一個很簡單的問題然後也沒有很難解決就是我們只要按照程序走然後再選然後選完了之後其實你們要的也都還是有啊這不會有任何的差別嘛投票時間也是當時堅持說一定要按照書面上的資料說書面上就是柯建民委員沒有王逸川所以就是不可以那書面就是寫投票到3點啊"},{"start":4514.901,"end":4536.456,"text":"投票上面寫到3點跟中交備委員講了什麼話跟吳思耀委員講了什麼話沒有關係啊他也不是投票表決的決定啊所以如果說這個樣子上面就是寫到3點結果我們到4點多才完成投票這個程序上自始就是一個有問題的程序嘛"},{"start":4537.386,"end":4553.656,"text":"那因此呢我們還是要主張這個會議本身是一個無效的會議但是我們可以來做補正嘛我們可以重新來過嘛重新來過其實就是都跟其實當天只要重新來過就好了根本也不用到現在重新來過結果也還是都會一樣謝謝"},{"start":4557.663,"end":4580.836,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員的發言那針對剛剛沈委員所垂詢的事項我説明一下第一個事情是說因為我們國發基金調查委員會在發開會通知的時候我們真的並不知道其他的委員會在這個時間點各自有什麼樣子的會議程序要進行所以"},{"start":4581.776,"end":4595.329,"text":"我們沒有辦法,真的沒有辦法去一一的委員會去探詢說其他委員會要做什麼樣子的事這個第一點先說明那第二點的事情是說在本院各個黨團"},{"start":4596.61,"end":4617.229,"text":"他們針對委員改推派程序的這件事情也不是由我個人來加以決定的改推派的事情我完全就是按照我們整個院會議事處他們所建立的規範跟他們所建立的程序來加以進行這是第二點說明"},{"start":4618.15,"end":4635.689,"text":"第3點說明因為目前我們立法院的議事處收到民主進步黨立院黨團的函是在12月4號的時候所收到的這個函那這個函呢裡面兩點的說明我剛剛也跟大家說明過了"},{"start":4636.59,"end":4652.445,"text":"民主進步黨發給我們立法院議事處的函第一點是說他們本來在11月27號有提交推派的名單那第二點說他們希望推派柯建民委員把他改派為王逸川委員擔任"},{"start":4653.766,"end":4671.513,"text":"這個函就只有這兩點說明那至於說剛剛民進黨委員所提到說他們之前跟議事委員說什麼那議事委員又說什麼那民進黨主張什麼時候改派生肖在這個函裡面一個字都沒有提"},{"start":4672.133,"end":4691.892,"text":"一個字都沒有提那因此我們立法院議事處的同仁就依照院會裡面列入報告事項民主進步黨所發的這個函收到了通知了以後那所以我們就今天開會的通知也發給了王逸川委員"},{"start":4694.073,"end":4711.12,"text":"上次第一次開會的時候在程序上面的事項各個委員或許有個人不同的看法或是意見的表達只不過我還是要必須忠實的反應那一天在開會的時候"},{"start":4714.441,"end":4733.099,"text":"當天會議的主席吳宗憲委員可以說是非常尊重在場委員所表示各式各樣的一個看法那結果那一天在開會的時候我剛剛唸的這不是我編造的內容是那一天委員會開的"},{"start":4734.46,"end":4759.31,"text":"逐字稿那時候委員有主張說是不是不要4點42分我們到5點5點比較明確延到5點這樣子就好了我相信每個委員在委員會裡面所做的意見立場的表達在立法院的公報當中都有白紙黑字清楚的載明"},{"start":4760.51,"end":4761.612,"text":"最重要的事情是什麼?"},{"start":4769.827,"end":4787.505,"text":"可以嗎?可不可以?不好意思主席還在發言請你把你的麥克風給消掉,謝謝那最重要的事情是什麼?最重要的事情我在跟全體的委員報告我真的是完全收到議事處的通知上個禮拜五我們這個委員會選召集委員"},{"start":4793.22,"end":4822.21,"text":"的事情報告到院會當中了上個禮拜五的院會沒有任何的委員主張這個報告事項的內容虛偽不實也沒有任何的委員主張上一次委員會開會在選召委的程序有任何的瑕疵因為沒有任何的異議也沒有任何其他不一樣的見解所以我就收到議事處的通知那請我們的議事同仁"},{"start":4823.11,"end":4848.686,"text":"發了開會通知發了開會通知給所有的委員召集了今天這樣子的會議那以上先做剛剛會議有提到的事情我想我再做第三輪再做第三輪的說明那現在那個因為那個還有委員剛剛好像是鍾嘉賓委員先舉手嘛"},{"start":4849.326,"end":4859.762,"text":"那所以是不是可以林委員您是不是同意讓中委員先因為我先跟大家報告一下啦因為我覺得如果時間許可的話那大家就"},{"start":4861.294,"end":4861.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":4884.985,"end":4902.605,"text":"我們的目前接到開會通知是定的時間下午2點到5點30分,時間相當充裕可不可以請會務人員把這一張當時院會通過的這是由民眾黨的修正動議的決議印給大家好不好,這是第一個,拜託一下有沒有會務人員可以幫我們印一下,印給每個人,可以嗎?第二個,其實我非常"},{"start":4907.196,"end":4931.046,"text":"同情剛剛在主席位置上的黃總召的發言那說了3次真的很無辜也很無奈因為呢他完全不是針對在12月2號當日臨時主席吳宗憲召委所做的決定之下他去為今天主席職責的接任他完全是應到議事人員議事處發出的通知我完全可以理解可以接受但是也不需要講到3次"},{"start":4931.994,"end":4939.722,"text":"但是呢 第三個但是我覺得剛剛黃總召的發言讓我覺得很有趣啊他不斷的提了兩次"},{"start":4941.537,"end":4970.476,"text":"12月2日他以一個公報逐字稿還不是公報逐字稿喔說我在過了原定議程3點之後的時間我跟臨時主席吳宗憲的對話說我們來討論要投開票截止時間的討論可不可以他把這個作為該日投票有效時間變更延長的一個有效依據如果當天臨時主席跟現場委員的對話在逐字稿當中呈現的"},{"start":4971.196,"end":4995.167,"text":"都可以作為依據那為什麼當日民進黨黨團根據立法院職權刑事法46條之一因為實際狀況改派王逸川委員來取代柯建民委員作為國發基金調查委員的委員當天不只是有發言還有書面提出是主席拒絕接受是林志主席吳宗憲拒絕接受我們是書面送達"},{"start":4997.947,"end":5014.892,"text":"委員之間的對話的逐字記錄,就可以作為非法議事變更的依據而根據例子法46條之一所提出的黨團所要求的書面更換,卻可以置之不理如果再用剛才的例子來說,如果今天投開票時間到下午4點為止"},{"start":5016.38,"end":5031.91,"text":"有人趕到現場跟投票主任說我現在4點半了你讓我投票我們大家投到5點半好不好投票主任說好這個來趕來的人說嗯哼喔被記錄下來有現場的警察為證那麼這個人就可以進入投票所投票嗎是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":5034.721,"end":5051.096,"text":"一件一個事前公布的議程可以當作依據當日臨時主席沒有經過會眾同意徵詢就這樣的一個對話就決定了那真好啊那為什麼改派要經過院會的送達"},{"start":5052.621,"end":5078.042,"text":"宋達院會查照案的時候報告事項後才能確認呢?不是這樣子吧?所以呢我今天還是非常同情在主席位上的黃總召也非常的擔憂目前坐立難安在我面前的吳昭偉作為當日的臨時主席還是要對於議事規則說明一下超過了原定議程時間之後主席所為的議程制調整有效嗎?"},{"start":5079.463,"end":5087.751,"text":"你到了3點40幾分才來處理說投開票時間到3點還要問大家意見我跟你硬個兩句3點40幾分太早了4點40幾都已經超過3點了這樣的變更議程能有效力嗎"},{"start":5095.303,"end":5110.977,"text":"非法變更議程所謂的投票有效力嗎?這個我想臨時主席現在的吳釗偉現在在場的議事人員這無關我們現在主席位置上的黃總召的意思跟他無關他當天也是在台下的一個與會委員之一而已"},{"start":5111.766,"end":5111.986,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":5137.796,"end":5161.828,"text":"文件的倒數第1、2、3、4、5、第5行他說這個黨團推敗名單要在11月27號中午12時前送交議事處有各黨團都依照這個決議的內容辦理與時適同放棄沒有黨團放棄這是事實然後呢11月29號院會會匯報名單所以"},{"start":5167.918,"end":5191.008,"text":"到12月2日之前,院會所做的決議,議事人員所做的處理,各黨團所為的回應,都符合院會的決議。但是,這個決議內容,它只有說12月2日星期一,2月20日召開第一次會議,由國民黨黨團推派的代表充任主席,到此為止。"},{"start":5192.574,"end":5209.446,"text":"由出席委員決定本調查委員會之召集人。好了,到這裡為止,當日的臨時主席吳宗憲委員根據事前根據這個決議各黨團的配合送交的名單匯整的結果發出的開會通知當然有效,不爭議。"},{"start":5210.799,"end":5233.084,"text":"但是這裏面並沒有限定並沒有拘束並沒有排除民進黨黨團根據立法院執行司法第46條之一依實際狀況改派委員並沒有拘束黨團限制這樣的權力行使所以民進黨依照院會的決議12月27日中午12時送到議事處了"},{"start":5234.504,"end":5251.771,"text":"議事處也在12月29號星期五由院會來彙報這個名單告訴院會全院委員了也決定了在12月2號下午2點召開第一次會議我們也依照院會的決議由國民黨黨團來推派的吳宗憲召委來擔任臨時的主席而且接下來就進行"},{"start":5252.85,"end":5270.165,"text":"委員出席委員來決定召集人那就是所謂的召委的選舉也列在當日開會通知所謂的討論事項就是選舉就是選舉事項不是討論選舉事項選舉的時間很清楚就到下午30為止如果說對於這個時間有問題當日的臨時"},{"start":5273.803,"end":5291.17,"text":"主席吳仲憲召委應該在3點之前徵得在場人員的同意進行變更而這樣的變更有沒有效力還很難講我們各委員會召委的選舉一般來講必須在一開始的時候跟做個宣告"},{"start":5292.455,"end":5320.086,"text":"不能到時間結束了再來做調整的宣告那這樣子那些已經趕來投票的委員會說我就照時間來投完票了為什麼那些遲到的委員你可以變更時間讓他投票我們歷來委員會的召委選舉都是如此至少當天何時截止發票何時開始開票至少由當日委員會召集的臨時主席當場在投開票之前宣告而且委員超過那時間來就不得投票"},{"start":5321.138,"end":5335.954,"text":"那我們還是要就教吳釗偉當日的臨時主席啊在下午3點多3點40幾分你說要延長到一個小時延長到4點40幾分本席在說太短了,趕快5點這樣的口語交換"},{"start":5339.028,"end":5360.035,"text":"有構成了賦予當時的臨時主席可以在議事日程截止日期時間之後去進圍延長投開票時間嗎?如果不行,這樣的選舉當然是無效。這個不是我們今天在主席位置上黃總召所要面對的,所要他負責的,不是!他不是當日的臨時主席。"},{"start":5361.107,"end":5383.176,"text":"反而他不斷地強調宣讀議事領袖提供的錯誤資料議事領袖很清楚並院會的決議沒有禁止限制排除民進黨在12月27號中午12時送出名單之後依例執法46條之一我們去變更改判名單沒有院會沒有剝奪民進黨黨團依法行使的權利所以民進黨黨團在當日12月2號下午2點15分以書面提出"},{"start":5390.902,"end":5417.773,"text":"如果本席當日竹子稿跟當日林氏主席的發言內容都可以被現在主席位置上的黃總召認為有效延長投開票時間那當日所提出來的改派名單為何林氏主席不接受那個謝謝那個鍾嘉賓委員那接下來林思敏委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5419.891,"end":5442.444,"text":"我想今天垂詢的幾位委員不斷的把問題複雜化這是一個非常簡單的問題剛才什麼委員講的我覺得也有道理除了你為什麼不解說啊為什麼不直接就讓這個我們王毅川委員直接就當天就可以這個成為我們調查委員會的委員我想各位有沒有想過我們參與各種的大小的會議"},{"start":5444.445,"end":5473.104,"text":"當一個人已經被匡列原本是這一位是我們的委員會的委員然後也已經把他在整個議程裡面就是認定他是委員然後你突然臨時說要換那要換要由誰來決定那我想當天我們一直強調你今天要在調查委員會突然更換名單因為完整委員剛宣誓就是完畢那完整委員的身份是不是我們當場的臨時主席就可以做決定呢"},{"start":5474.468,"end":5488.537,"text":"沒有人去參加,就是你的宣誓就職典禮,我們並沒有參與。在場委員沒有參與,沒有人指導。所以你叫不在場的委員去宣誓,我們在場委員現在可以立即跟柯金平委員來調換,要我們馬上做確認。"},{"start":5491.019,"end":5516.231,"text":"我想這個完全不符合意識的常規這是很簡單的問題所以今天如果要更換王一川委員進到我們的調查委員會你就是向院會來申請行文嘛你行文之後經過院會確認然後我們也經過院會的我們調查委員會經過院會的一個行文說就是有柯建民委員換成是王一川委員現在程序就是這樣啊"},{"start":5519.167,"end":5546.698,"text":"所以你們是在12月4號行文嗎?你行文過去,那院會被查之後,我們調查委員會再根據院會的通知,來讓王一川委員加入調查委員會這是一個非常簡單的問題,怎麼會一直強調要在委員會馬上就讓你們更換呢?因為這不符合過去我們議事的慣例,我們要很理性的來看這件事情"},{"start":5547.518,"end":5572.299,"text":"如果說你們是故意要干擾議事講說當天為什麼不讓王毅昌委員進來沒有人反對但是我們認為他有一定的程序不是說馬上就可以抽換更何況那天的選票上面我們早在之前就已經匡列好了如果你因為實際的狀況要去更換王毅昌委員我們就很不了解為什麼柯靖民委員明明可以來他不來"},{"start":5573.2,"end":5583.47,"text":"所謂的實際狀況當時的臨時主席能夠做判斷嗎他也沒有辦法判斷啊議事人員可以做判斷嗎都沒有辦法判斷啊所以當然要經過院會的確認"},{"start":5585.791,"end":5603.574,"text":"申請之後把程序上整個完備之後王一長委員才能夠進到調查委員會我想是非常簡單的道理你們不斷的要把它複雜化我覺得這個沒有意義啦沒有意義然後你說時間的問題我想當天我想我們大家都在場"},{"start":5605.688,"end":5622.275,"text":"畢竟我們這個調查委員會我們在選出我們的召委跟所謂的一般選舉畢竟不一樣我們國會自治雖然說我們在時針上排說是3點要進行投票但是經過在場的委員大家多數決定"},{"start":5623.536,"end":5624.157,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5642.079,"end":5642.259,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5660.848,"end":5679.577,"text":"今天調查委員會已經成立了,也已經經過院會整個意思路的確認,你們這個要換黃益川也在院會已經報告事項,也已經確認整個都完全依照我們的議事規則在進行,我不解為什麼要去複雜化這個問題,以上。OK,我們接下來請那個黃益川委員發言"},{"start":5685.868,"end":5701.853,"text":"好 謝謝如果按照林思敏委員的邏輯啊當天在開會的時候在場沒有人知道我已經就職了林思敏委員的邏輯是這樣嘛那請問這個議事錄裡頭的列席人員王逸川是哪裡來的列席啊 議事錄啊昨那一次啦 昨那一天啦列席委員李坤城 王逸川 王定宇啊"},{"start":5714.184,"end":5742.677,"text":"直接回答你好不好因為這是一個事實你當天確實坐在那裏但是你的身份主席還沒有確認那怎麼學我幹嘛就你坐在那裏啊但是你要叫主席當天有參加那個宣誓就職這個我回答你就是事實你是事實坐在那裏不是啦林思敏你講這樣就沒意思啦這第一啦第一就是說第一就是說"},{"start":5744.117,"end":5765.297,"text":"這個委員的名單都團決定,各黨團決定其他的黨也不能有意見,我們的黨就決定推派我,這到底有什麼問題?一天吳宗憲委員說這要院會同意,院會一天沒同意,院會後也沒同意,院會是查詔"},{"start":5767.028,"end":5778.915,"text":"查詔就是白鴨,查詔就是白鴨,已經關定的事來這裡說一下叫查詔啊,不然你就陳情同意啊,不然你就同意啊,不是啦,不然你就是院會同意啊,所以叫吳宗憲說也沒用啊,吳宗憲說要院會同意啊,不是啦,吳宗憲說院會同意啊,你現在又改啊,去到那裡叫查詔現在又改同意,不是啦,我講喔,今天要討論這個就是這樣啦,"},{"start":5798.255,"end":5819.589,"text":"我的興奮是一天因為吳宗憲一個人決定說我不能投票我也不是好選人啊這對我來說這是一個瑕疵啊這是一個重大瑕疵啊所以我們今天為什麼這個議事錄沒辦法決定啊這議事錄有瑕疵啊今天多大定管的那些國鄉啊"},{"start":5820.728,"end":5826.692,"text":"不是啦,這一段定管在國中啊,國中啊現在有沒有資格當這個會這個召委,這也會確定啊,議事會沒確定他要做召委,是不是這樣,這不會通啊,大家是尊重他,他這段現在講台都要走出議會,他讓我們講我們講的,問題是他現在不適格啊。"},{"start":5844.545,"end":5846.607,"text":"要先決定 決定到吳宗憲說要同意這件事 當然那天決定我不能做委員 我不能做這個委員 不能選召委 這件事今天決定了"},{"start":5857.533,"end":5858.354,"text":"謝謝王玉川委員我再次說明一下"},{"start":5886.141,"end":5913.113,"text":"我今天坐在這邊擔任召委是因為我收到院會議事處的通知那院會議事處針對這件事情也是依照上個禮拜五院會報告事項第100案的內容那當天請容我再強調一次當天院會去報告說這個委員會選出由本人來擔任召集委員當天的這個事項"},{"start":5914.474,"end":5943.468,"text":"沒有任何人提出異議沒有任何人提出爭執也沒有任何人當場表示任何反對的意見那從議事同仁他們的立場在院會裡面做了報告也沒有任何異議那我們的議事同仁都是奉公守法的公務員就依照院會報告的事項通過了以後那議事處通知本委員會的議事同仁"},{"start":5944.248,"end":5959.883,"text":"本委會的議事同仁才依法發出了今天這樣子的會議通知我想就客觀層面的事實我先跟各位委員說明一下那接下來不曉得還有哪一位委員要發言我們接下來請沈博洋委員"},{"start":5963.059,"end":5985.422,"text":"關於為什麼今天會有這個會議的理由已經講了4次了但我還是要回應一下就是剛剛林思明委員提到的就是我們立法院職權刑事法46之一他是說調查委員會的成員由立法院各黨團所以它主體是各黨團依其在院會之席次比例推派之並得視情況予以改派所以它的主體是黨團"},{"start":5987.003,"end":6007.81,"text":"他不是說當天要去尋得這一個不管是臨時的這一個主席還是說院會的同意他本身就是可以視實際情況與改派我剛剛舉的那個例子就是說我也沒有怪說為什麼今天一定要這個時候開會但就比如說因為現在在審空軍等一下就要審到海軍所以今天是一個非常重要的這個預算審查"},{"start":6009.15,"end":6035.338,"text":"那在這個情況之下,我們也,如果說今天真的來不及的話,我們是不是就是要予以改派?就是這種情況可能會很多件,因為現在在,尤其是我們現在在這個預算會議,又卡了那一堆預算審查案,又有法案,然後又有這種調查委員會。所以在當時,其實根本就沒有困難,只要議事人員讓王逸川委員那時候簽到,他已經有確認他就是有一個立法委員的資格。"},{"start":6036.058,"end":6057.536,"text":"那我們在當時呢,我們本來就已經要求由柯建民委員換成王逸川委員這完全不是一個強人所難的事情,他是依照法條46之一在做的事情所以我們的主張是,那個完全是一個合法合規的換人的方式他不是要經過同意的,他是法條上面就說你可以改派之"},{"start":6058.317,"end":6083.843,"text":"那再來最後還是要講一下剛剛宗教兵委員一直提到就是今天要延長會議時間不是不行但他一定要在法定的時間之前嘛不然徐欣穎委員今天在2點以前一定要趕下去然後說噢今天要延長到12點他為什麼要這樣做就是因為本來的法定時間到2點他一定要在2點以前做這樣的事情嘛他總不能半夜10點跑下去說今天會議延長到12點這大家一定崩潰啊"},{"start":6084.583,"end":6101.345,"text":"雖然說真的會議根本就沒有開始我不知道他到底要怎麼延長但總之就是他要做這件事情第一個文書上面就寫是三點那也應該是在三點以前如果這個的議事規則當時發現完了已經超過三點了也來不及延長了"},{"start":6101.866,"end":6130.125,"text":"其實說真的就就說啊不然我們再約個明天後天大家協調一下我們重新來開會重新來投票這都是按照議事規則可以做的事今天不是說因為剛剛吳宗憲委員說這個是在浪費我們在拖時間然後在我們等一下要審預算沒有想要拖時間然後說我們這個是廢話對我們來講重點就是議事規則很簡單的一個遵守而已我覺得有時候我們現在整個立法院的一個亂象就是議事規則大家"},{"start":6130.865,"end":6131.005,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6150.435,"end":6150.655,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":6169.206,"end":6197.524,"text":"這今年已經幾乎要蕩然無存了因為你們完全沒有想要遵守而我們明明都知道你們現在有多數然後你們要選誰當召委他也選得上你要通過什麼要點也可以通過這個我們都知道而我們如此卑微的要求就是按照46條之一當時我們的改派然後以及在3點之前就應該要延長會議的時間其實就是那麼簡單的事情最後的結果跟你們要的不會有差別啊"},{"start":6197.924,"end":6225.319,"text":"但我們好好的按照議事規則走一次然後也為後來樹立一樣的一個典範這樣不是好事嗎以上好那個謝謝沈博洋委員那我們現在是不是進行議事錄的確認好請問確認上次會議的議事錄在場委員有沒有異議來我們我們要求提案好那個鍾嘉斌委員有提案來謝謝OK好"},{"start":6227.372,"end":6235.844,"text":"案有針對本會第一次全體委員會會議議事錄因出席委員名單、召集委員、遴選"},{"start":6238.561,"end":6264.639,"text":"選舉人民策及選舉事項之過程和結果均榮有意義故就此部分之議事錄記載與該次會議內容實際發生的情況不符那應與更正或者是移除所以中委員這樣子的一個提案基本上就是反對確認議事錄嗎就是我們要求議事錄根據哪些事情要移除我們討論"},{"start":6266.226,"end":6291.599,"text":"我們剛剛不是討論了一個小時又14分鐘嗎?剛剛的討論有這個提案在場嗎?沒有啊!剛剛的討論沒有這個提案在場啊!剛剛我們在討論當天12月2號臨時主席吳宗憲所為的決定以議事人員所給的建議所以不好意思我先請教一下那個提案的委員現在所提的這個案子請問是一個什麼樣子性質的提案?"},{"start":6293.001,"end":6319.072,"text":"我們目前的提案就是就議事錄當中要移除的部分進行討論移除的部分那就你們現在要移除的部分請問你們覺得哪個部分要移除因為這樣子的話因為這個跟我們現在確認議事錄的事項我先跟大家說明一下是屬於同一事件之性質什麼叫同一事件之性質就議事錄的確認有委員認為應該予以確認這個我尊重"},{"start":6323.195,"end":6340.107,"text":"有委員認為要移除要改那要怎麼移除要怎麼改跟要確認議事錄的這個事項是屬於同一個標的的事項因為一個是大的嘛另外一個是小的嘛那所以我說針對有關於議事錄確認的這件事情剛剛"},{"start":6344.491,"end":6357.821,"text":"從2點開始到現在3點15分我相信在場的人以及現在所有在網路上面關注這個委員會開會的人都可以清楚的見證我充分的尊重每一位委員的發言"},{"start":6359.122,"end":6359.602,"text":"草案。．草案。．草案。"},{"start":6379.071,"end":6379.351,"text":"中委員的性質"},{"start":6394.008,"end":6417.643,"text":"中委員所要處理提案的性質是說您認為議事錄上面有不實需要做更正那我們就按照程序來予以處理那你現在提案的內容是針對議事錄的部分就哪個部分您認為要予以更正是不是請中委員來說明一下"},{"start":6418.103,"end":6435.701,"text":"好 謝謝在主席位置上的黃總召其實在意識學當中所謂的意識錄確認意識錄所列的文字內容就是原案就是這個原案要訴請我們委員會來進行確認一般就是表決討論後表決那就是原案"},{"start":6436.513,"end":6462.228,"text":"那本席所提出來的是針對原案當中的第一修正案要移除部分的登載不實的內容我具體的指名我現在會補充就是要移除那這個移除當然會是屬於議事錄確認當中這個陳如剛剛黃總召所說的這是一個原案那麼我們很明確就原案當中要或不要通過議事錄這是原案"},{"start":6463.325,"end":6473.167,"text":"那要通過議事務這是原案我們的第一修正案就是針對這個原案當中要移除的部分要加以處理這是第一修正案"},{"start":6473.82,"end":6500.499,"text":"那當然其他委員也可以就這個第一修正案的部分來做第二修正案做第三修正案那麼目前依照意識學我們修正案優先處理那目前在場的案動議如果黃總召同意的話目前我們已經成案那成案的第一修正案要處理那我就具體的就提案的內容說明要移除的部分那請問現在可不可以來進行第一修正案的主張跟說明和討論"},{"start":6504.392,"end":6511.902,"text":"謝謝那個總委員因為我目前所收到的案有你們提出來要移除的部分上面一個字都沒寫"},{"start":6516.423,"end":6537.334,"text":"不好意思齁,那你如果要提案的話就請你提出書面因為沒有啊,你現在提出的書面上面根本沒有講你的意識度到底要移除哪裡,要更正哪裡嘛現在我要處理你的提案,那我要先請你特定你提案的內容所以我請你用書面提嘛,那我現在告訴你的"},{"start":6539.395,"end":6560.129,"text":"剛剛那個中委員所提的那個書面的提案,我覺得為了明確起見,那個意識同仁啊,事實是發給我們在場所有的委員。來,我先念一下剛剛他的案由,他說有疑義,所以疑義更正或移除,那我剛剛說的完全沒有錯。"},{"start":6561.03,"end":6583.057,"text":"要更正什麼地方要移除什麼地方那在這個案子裡面完全沒有任何的記載完全沒有任何的記載那既然我們現在目前針對書面的提案請那個總委員你是不是要把你的提案補正一下到底哪裡要移除哪裡要更正來請對不起齁"},{"start":6585.7,"end":6614.373,"text":"什麼是更正搞清楚啊今天我們班會決定明天要考試我提出修正案說考試前先去遠足那你說遠足那遠足你要去哪裡遠足遠足多久哪些要參加本席應提出啊你說意思要確認原案要確認這是一個提案我認為原案當中要移除要修正所以我接下來我要說明哪些要移除哪些修正你總不能說我說明天要遠足你說啊你在遠足的動議"},{"start":6615.413,"end":6642.25,"text":"你沒有寫時間沒有寫參加人員沒有寫要不要繳交費用所以你這個要求明天考試前我們先去遠足的修正動議你這個不完備抱歉啊我認為剛剛有點強詞奪理剝奪了提案委員我可以做說明但是我的提案很清楚我已經針對議事錄的確認原案是我同意我明確的指出有不實的部分要移除要更正"},{"start":6643.09,"end":6667.437,"text":"至於我要移除哪裡跟著哪裡這是我的說明就像我提議考試前先去遠足要去哪裡遠足要不要交錢那是我的提案說明我也希望我們今天在會議進行當中其實也不會花時間剛剛沈博洋委員講的就很清楚今天目前的國會多數就算在本調查委員會裡面也很清楚多數在哪裡"},{"start":6668.654,"end":6675.546,"text":"這個委員會或院會的多數要做什麼樣的決定,一定按照民主的程序,可以按照他們的意旨來遂行。"},{"start":6676.345,"end":6701.115,"text":"那現在這個召委的選舉我們提出了一些質疑那麼重選也不是很困難的事情怎麼會我剛剛講出來的有這麼困難嗎重選會很困難嗎但是重選之後就杜絕了這些程序上與我們的議事常規有備而遭到日後挑戰的可能性所以我們很希望這個國發基金調查委員會"},{"start":6702.375,"end":6726.537,"text":"能夠在一開始就能夠依照我們立法院院會的決議跟立法院相關的上位法令以及我們議事常規來進行因此剛剛在場的議案的秩序是議事錄書面所列的部分那是原案那要通過與否我們剛剛有做了一個廣泛的討論現在我提出的第一修正案主張議事錄當中"},{"start":6728.53,"end":6744.951,"text":"要移除或修正部分那我接下來的提案說明我就要說明移除哪些修正哪些所以在這裡我就直接來說明我們目前認為有哪些與事實不符首先第一點"},{"start":6746.775,"end":6771.916,"text":"列席委員王逸川委員當日在下午12月2日下午2時15分他的身份是立法委員但是他是民進黨改派的委員他不應該再放在列席委員請假委員柯建民委員已經經過民進黨黨團改派他雖然是立法委員但是不是本委員會的委員就沒有所謂的請假的這個頭銜那麼"},{"start":6775.953,"end":6795.78,"text":"第3當日的議事錄的時間從23分主席宣布開會臨時主席宣布開會那麼到40、54分這個明顯的與會議通知上所做的議事日程3點完成投票"},{"start":6796.994,"end":6797.434,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6817.589,"end":6844.184,"text":"然後報告事項當中因為他是就我們院會的決議所為的剛剛我已經把院會當時所做的決議已經提供給我們在場的委員說明看過了然後也宣讀了當時他召集委員的選舉人名冊那這裡面因為只有寫宣讀選舉人名冊那選舉人名冊的內容因為在我們的議事部當中他沒有作為當日的附件"},{"start":6844.804,"end":6845.104,"text":"選舉事項、本會召集委員、選舉結果"},{"start":6864.138,"end":6879.669,"text":"這個部分由於該次選舉是在法定合法時間以外所為那該時間並未經時間內的合法之宣告予以延長所以這個選舉事項是在我們確認的議程的時間外發生那麼這個選舉事項"},{"start":6887.894,"end":6888.835,"text":"草案。 草案。"},{"start":6907.132,"end":6923.553,"text":"第二．列席委員．王逸川委員．當日有出席．不應該列為列席委員．已經民進黨正式以書面改派第三．請教委員．柯建民委員．經過改派後已經不是本委員會的民進黨推派委員．請移除"},{"start":6926.335,"end":6946.549,"text":"選舉事項,因為該日的選舉已經溢出了當日合法的會議時間,因此該市的選舉事項無效,因予移除。以上這4點時間,列席委員,請假委員,以及選舉事項有分別要進行更正以及移除的部分。"},{"start":6947.249,"end":6959.42,"text":"最後附帶一點第五點,我們希望這個議事錄能夠將報告事項的第二點,宣讀本會召集委員的選舉人名冊以復健的方式列入在我們的議事錄當中,讓我們知道當日的選舉是由哪些人,哪些名單。這個請求,我想可以先希望能夠聽聽我們議事處人員,因為過去我們在議事錄的確認的時候,可能我經驗有限,"},{"start":6973.732,"end":7000.135,"text":"不曉得有沒有這樣的一個議事錄的確認過程當中可不可以在修正登案的時候加上這樣的要求那以上呢是我們今天針對議事錄確認我們所提的在議程上在議事規則上他的地位是屬於第一修正案那我們分別就第一修正案的內容分別做以上的五點說明那麼既然呢在主席位置上的王總召他有自行準備的逐字稿"},{"start":7000.555,"end":7000.755,"text":"主旨稿"},{"start":7023.624,"end":7025.729,"text":"謝謝鍾委員嘉賓的說明請問現場對於鍾委員嘉賓提案的內容有無異議"},{"start":7034.252,"end":7063.142,"text":"有異議嗎?OK,好,那我們現在先處理的標的是中委員嘉賓所提出來的臨時提案那贊成中委員嘉賓所提出的第一修正案的請舉手不用討論嗎?我發言完了,我提案,我說明完了,不用討論嗎?不用討論喔不用討論,我說明完了啊那個,我們就按照程序進行嘛,對,所以剛剛在你說明完了以後我要進行處理,那現在有委員請求要發言嗎?"},{"start":7065.536,"end":7084.115,"text":"是嗎?現在有沒有委員要請求發言?有,好那我們來請王逸川委員剛剛這個中委員把話講得那麼清楚,我當時就是初期委員那你可以設定我說我2點15分到,那我2點15分到,我2點15分以後是初期委員"},{"start":7086.118,"end":7098.19,"text":"我2點15分以後,要開始選召集委員的時候,我就已經有參選的資格。所以告訴我,宗嘉斌委員念的很正確,這改改的事情就改過了。"},{"start":7099.065,"end":7099.225,"text":"草案。：討論"},{"start":7119.813,"end":7127.477,"text":"所以這一個可以投票的委員可以當候選人的委員都還沒有確定要不要召集委員的選舉當然就沒意義了不是這樣嗎"},{"start":7130.469,"end":7137.493,"text":"拜託吳宗憲委員講一下他當時是怎樣,情境他最知道,因為當時郭熊仔沒在聽他講他都不知道叫吳宗憲講一下當時是怎樣決定要去院會去動議,跟他講事情我可以去裡面做委員,這也要講一下,大家把事情講清楚"},{"start":7152.501,"end":7153.683,"text":"講到請做要給我們人、我們人到現在表格書我們就輸了,總是這議事錄大家玩玩,對不對,看要怎麼蓋怎麼用"},{"start":7162.635,"end":7166.257,"text":"總是要有一個結論,不然這條你們還要放的嗎?要放的一直放過去嗎?那又沒道理了吧?我是建議說,大家再參詳一下,吳宗憲委員你也說一下,說當時你去做我這個委員會委員理由是什麼,也再說一下,你當時你主席啊,大家說的話你都有聽到啊,你也給大家解說一下對不對?"},{"start":7188.49,"end":7192.512,"text":"請問針對中委員嘉賓所提出來的修正案還有沒有委員要表示意見請沈博洋委員"},{"start":7215.051,"end":7230.669,"text":"那這個齁我覺得這是有點奇怪啦齁所以我們並不是在做質詢我們只是要討論而已就好像我們今天在法條主條討論的時候其實雙方也都會發言啦我們並不是說一定要出你不是說什麼質疑說什麼這個吳宗憲委員怎樣怎樣而是只是說"},{"start":7231.97,"end":7255.919,"text":"這兩件事情就是那麼的單純第一個事情就是在2點15分以後我們有按照46條之一提出了改派那剛剛林思敏委員有針對這個發表意見那我們也算是有討論到嘛那另外一個就是很簡單的也就是藝術最需要更正的就是在他的時間這一行他應該是下午2點3分他就只能到3點00分嘛"},{"start":7257.66,"end":7284.88,"text":"因為他並沒有在3點以前去延長這個會議的時間那目前來講我也想不到一個比較合理的說法說他為什麼可以到4點54分所以這件事情我覺得是可以討論而且討論完之後如果我們覺得這就是一個沒有符合規則的方式那我們也承認然後我們也因為這樣重新選這樣是好事啊不然這樣等於留了一個尾巴以後別人都可以拿這一個黃國昌委員的這個調查委員會來說嘴嘛"},{"start":7287.883,"end":7315.124,"text":"上次他也講說沒有關係啊可以在這個3點以後再延長開會時間沒有關係啊那如果這樣的話那以後我們不是議事都大亂嗎我覺得這要設一個sample就是說我們至少要讓大家知道遵守議事規則是什麼樣子在這個議事的攻防上面原本就是如此我覺得不要說去迴避討論這一個問題然後就說要直接的表決表決的結果我們也都知道啊我們也等一下也都還有別的事情要做但是"},{"start":7315.945,"end":7344.342,"text":"我覺得好好討論這件事情說真的應該沒有那麼的困難好 謝謝沈博洋委員請問在場委員還有沒有要表示意見來請中委員嘉賓好 謝謝那麼針對第一修正案的部分我第二次提出剛剛已經很清楚的說明了我們的第一修正案當中要做的五點的內容那麼到目前討論嘛"},{"start":7346.129,"end":7357.445,"text":"討論就是大家拿出來有不同意見類似的意見其他的看法都可以大家共同來交換但是一直很疑惑的"},{"start":7359.084,"end":7379.689,"text":"我跟吳宗憲、吳昭偉我們同樣在司法法制委員會那我們也是隔週輪流輪值來擔任主席其實我們彼此對於會議的進行其實都有一定的默契也了解我們在委員會當中我們所進行的意識那麼各黨團基於立場有差別"},{"start":7380.189,"end":7405.222,"text":"我們有議事攻防那是當然難免但是呢當我們對於議事的認知有這樣的一個明顯的不同的時候那當日在12月2號下午的那一次就是要來產生這個特別調查委員會的召委的那一次那吳召委擔任臨時主席那他所為的一些宣告所做的一些對"},{"start":7406.443,"end":7435.592,"text":"一事當場的處理我們提出了一些質疑那麼到目前為止當天對於這樣的質疑作為臨時主席的吳釗偉也並沒有做更多的說明有啦有做了一些說明啦但這些說明呢我們當場質疑到現在我們也有新的市政來支持但是有這個新的市政來支持我舉例齁這個不是重複我不太重複太多其實有關於查照跟核定"},{"start":7436.722,"end":7456.527,"text":"這個明顯的就是不同我想在場有很多法學的溯驗大家對於法學法律用詞是很清楚查照不因為事後查照的日程去影響到當時所發生的效力那因此呢既然是查照就沒有說要送到院務會去做決定"},{"start":7457.847,"end":7481.702,"text":"當日的臨時主席吳釗偉口口聲聲說民進黨所改派的委員必須送到院會去做確認去做決定那這個因為我實在不想要再重複為什麼但是我為什麼不得不講因為既然要討論我主張要移除更正王逸川委員當日的出席身份"},{"start":7482.881,"end":7507.551,"text":"那麼對於這個出席身份有不同意見但是不是今日的不同意見是當日的不同意見的當日的臨時主席吳宗憲、昭偉他當時堅持這個改派必須是由院會才能做決定那麼雖然我頒出的例子法是6條之2但是始終他不為他所認同但是到今天吳昭偉到目前還是不發異議"},{"start":7509.043,"end":7528.766,"text":"對於當日作為臨時主席所謂的議事處理的認知以及明顯的跟今日包括現在在主席位置上的黃總召所宣讀的院會的關係文書的內容是明顯的有見嘛剛剛所宣讀的內容是請查照案嘛"},{"start":7530.097,"end":7549.786,"text":"那為什麼在12月2號我們現在面前的吳釗偉在當日作為臨時主席的時候認為王逸川委員的出席身份需要到日後的院會才能做確認呢那因此本席提出的第一修正案的說明當中有關於去更正"},{"start":7551.286,"end":7577.417,"text":"王逸川委員所列的列席委員而改列為初席委員那個部分至少當日的主席臨時主席的吳釗偉要說明一下我們在討論那你都不回避不願意說明你當日所做的為什麼會這個因為那個那個黃總召說他手上的那份逐字稿我現在知道那份是他自己"},{"start":7578.91,"end":7606.778,"text":"電腦上去調錄音檔自己形成的真的很辛苦我還以為是我們議事人員所提供的還不小心要去翻閱原來那是私人財產我以為是我們會議的文書資料我也很好奇啊當日如果按照這個時間的記載從2點3分到4點54分哇那這個逐字稿內容相當豐富啊而且當日呢麥克風有好幾支因為"},{"start":7608.171,"end":7618.909,"text":"群仙樓802會議室每個座位上都有麥克風那這個逐字稿要如何去呈現當日我用一個說明七嘴八舌的發言內容"},{"start":7620.148,"end":7647.924,"text":"而多因軌的結果所呈現出來的逐字稿要怎麼樣成為目前在主席座位上的黃總召作為他議事裁量的依據,我也很納悶但是呢,我很誠意的想聽聽看目前呢,看起來有點坐立難,對不起我收回我不應該去揣動目前吳釗偉他的心情吳釗偉目前對於當日所為臨時主席的身份,那到底"},{"start":7648.584,"end":7673.662,"text":"你所說的王逸川委員的出席身份要到院會才能決定這個依據為何我也很好奇也希望說經過合理的說明我有機會被說服就是說到底我們這個如果這個吳釗偉他可以說服我說這個事情雖然是查照案但是根據他的法學的素養跟過去議事的經驗他可以把這樣的一個查照案"},{"start":7674.182,"end":7698.768,"text":"在當日做臨時主席的情況之下可以敬語認定王逸川委員不具有出席委員的身份那或許這樣子我就可以接受在我目前在確認議事錄議事地位是第一修正案的內容提案的第一點關於我們王逸川委員到底是出席身份還是列席身份我可以接受再做調整"},{"start":7702.549,"end":7719.838,"text":"科建民委員請假身份,若第一點成立,第二點更正若第二點都成立,當日的選舉人名冊就要修正若當日的選舉人名冊都要修正,選舉結果勢必要重來"},{"start":7720.979,"end":7721.199,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7733.12,"end":7754.477,"text":"五十四分那這個時間是否有誤當日臨時主席吳宗憲召委所為的延長會議時間的宣告是否有在合法有效的議事處理時程在三點之前所為而當場是不是又經過一致的同意禁語延長這個都不疑疑問"},{"start":7755.217,"end":7783.938,"text":"那這種種諸多的疑問疑點其實今天最有辦法將這個討論做一個明快的結束的就是我們的吳昭偉吳宗憲委員那麼您身為12月2日國發基金調查特別委員會由國民黨所推派的臨時主席您所為的議事處理應該在現在做一個公開的完整的讓我們了解"},{"start":7784.518,"end":7806.043,"text":"說不定在我瞭解之後我可以接受這些議事錄當中哪些部分是屬於合法有效的所以我再次的當然剛剛在主席位置上的黃總召也說過我們委員會的議事其實並沒有說有委員出席委員來質詢其他的出席委員沒有我們都是做意見的交換"},{"start":7807.183,"end":7830.065,"text":"當然在會議詢問的時候我們會透過會議主席的轉接將會議詢問轉由可能有能力回答的委員來代為回答這點完全是主席依照我們所提出的會議詢問來進行做處理不過由於目前本席所進行的方式並不是會議詢問是對易思路確認的原案提出第一修正案"},{"start":7830.72,"end":7830.76,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7848.749,"end":7848.929,"text":"草案。 草案。"},{"start":7867.108,"end":7888.599,"text":"一個慣性就是說當別人認真的討論他們不想聽沒耐性聽然後自己又不願意或沒有能力提出不同意見或反駁或澄清當你無力做出澄清無法做出反駁那麼你所能做的就是用人數的優勢提出停止討論的動議根據委員會的我們議事規則用書面為之我看現在都在做準備了"},{"start":7893.382,"end":7893.502,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":7913.78,"end":7913.9,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7932.054,"end":7932.895,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7948.393,"end":7948.633,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7964.359,"end":7989.859,"text":"是屬於歷來都有在進行的不管朝野各政黨都在進行的還是破天荒前所未有到本屆的國民黨黨團在他們的副總召所為之下所提出的完全毀棄破壞民主的程序所為的一黨關門修法的這樣的劣跡那麼透過這樣的一個意識的公開呈現"},{"start":7991.7,"end":8018.325,"text":"讓全國的國人都能夠清楚的看到那麼國民黨再次的不管是透過集體的暴力還是透過多數的暴力那麼來要碾壓要終止這樣我們對於非常重要這個非常重要也是因為提案委員上次在院會當中在某次的院會當中特別提出要成立這樣的一個特別調查委員會既然這個調查委員會所要調查的事項"},{"start":8019.125,"end":8047.138,"text":"如贊成跟提案的委員在院會作成決議是如此的重要那為何我們今天完全依照議事規則所為的討論議事錄的內容的討論那麼目前我們完全聽不到國民黨委員你們的回應那尤其是當日的臨時主席吳宗憲吳委員吳昭偉您始終不發一語所以呢我們還是很懇切的希望"},{"start":8047.765,"end":8053.895,"text":"能夠得到你們的一個意見或許在接下來停止討論之後"},{"start":8055.049,"end":8083.841,"text":"我們就可以呢就這樣的結果來進行合乎議事規則民主程序的表決那麼以上我們就就這樣的一個說明謝謝我們願意聆聽這樣充分完整的討論那但是如果還有未進的地方我們也樂於見到不管是本黨的委員還是他黨的委員我們就同意的議題現在第一修正案已經提出來以上五點的內容就交於大家謝謝"},{"start":8087.798,"end":8107.977,"text":"謝謝,那個徐委員不好意思,就是說依照議事規則我必須要先處理,雖然你有舉手那我現在目前呢,收到書面的提案由林思敏委員、吳宗憲委員、徐欣委員等所提出來,建請停止討論來處理我們鍾嘉賓委員的第一修正案那是不是先請清點在場人數"},{"start":8121.657,"end":8122.237,"text":"到底有什麼意思啊?"},{"start":8142.224,"end":8151.257,"text":"贊成中嘉賓委員第一修正案的請舉手現場沒有任何人表示贊成,反對的請舉手"},{"start":8155.573,"end":8167.518,"text":"反對的1、2、3、4、5總共有5個人那中嘉賓委員等人所提的第一修正案那我們就否決那我們現在處理有關於議事錄的確認那對於議事錄的確認在場有沒有委員有異議"},{"start":8176.563,"end":8202.348,"text":"現在目前在場的委員五人全部對於議事錄的確認表示贊成那我們現在就進行討論事項立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會運作要點草案我再請議事同仁宣讀以前不曉得在場委員對程序的進行還有什麼意見來請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":8204.144,"end":8205.505,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8224.183,"end":8246.702,"text":"嚴當整個意思不要讓大家去審查國發基金嗎這其實司馬昭之心路人皆知啊那我們為什麼要配合他玩所以我們都不覺得不需要去跟他們一來一往以上我就跟先跟主席報告這個第一件事情那第二件事情就是有關當天會議時間的投票時間的改變以及是否王一川能不能夠"},{"start":8248.223,"end":8265.851,"text":"改推派這個部分當天我在做任何作為的時候我都有解釋原因是什麼依據是什麼第二個當天這兩個動作我雖然對於立法委員職權行使法以及議事規則我依據我的認知可以這麼做我"},{"start":8267.968,"end":8295.576,"text":"也沒有堅持大家一定要聽我的我還希望說請最懂議事規則的議事人員以及法治局來解釋我的請他們提供一些意見給我們建議我的做法對不對那當天你們都在場也聽到了法治局給我們的回覆以及議事人員的表示這兩個作為都沒有問題甚至民進黨當時也同意說我們來聽法治局的意見"},{"start":8296.576,"end":8321.698,"text":"法治局如果認為沒問題就沒問題就法治局覺得沒問題之後換民進黨有問題了所以這個啊其實一連串下來他就是為了延宕今天的開會嘛第3個是否無效這東西不是誰說了算民進黨長期對於同一條議事規則以及對於立法委員職權行事法同一個條文總是有非常多種的解釋方式"},{"start":8322.398,"end":8347.813,"text":"然後他就看今天的議程哪一個解釋方式對他有利他就拿那個出來亂講一通所以今天非常的簡單如果他要主張我們當天有任何作為而無效所以導致主席今天是不合法的那他去講他的我們從頭到尾沒有認為無效也不會因為中嘉賓一個人無效就造成剛剛王逸川以及剛剛沈伯陽好像就拿無效這樣一直來講下去"},{"start":8348.533,"end":8366.233,"text":"你連到底無不無效你都搞不清楚的時候後面那一段都是廢話所以我剛剛連聽我都懶得聽所以在這邊我就跟各位報告如果在場任何委員對於我在12月2日當天所做的議事主持有任何的意見請回去看當天12月2號的錄影"},{"start":8367.967,"end":8391.456,"text":"不要再問我叫我解釋我沒有那個義務要接受其他委員的質詢或是解釋給其他委員聽他們可以回去看一下12月2號當天的錄影那再來說或是他要請求救濟歡迎不要來這邊胡說八道鬼扯一通只為了耽誤我們整個國發基金的審查所以我們不要落入他的圈套那麻煩主席就我們開始實質進行議案謝謝"},{"start":8393.764,"end":8416.46,"text":"那個謝謝吳宗憲委員那的確成如吳宗憲委員所講我們今天來討論這個調查委員會全體的委員我們的目標就是要來去履行院會所交付我們大家的任務針對國發基金不當的投資及管理的失職來進行國會的調查"},{"start":8420.143,"end":8445.113,"text":"在場與會的委員的確在議事規則上在法律上都沒有義務去回答其他委員所提出來的質詢這是第一點主席先做這樣的確認那第二個上一次開會的時候整個議事的過程包括了選舉的結果包括了改派委員其實上禮拜五在院會的時候都已經列入了報告事項"},{"start":8445.993,"end":8463.051,"text":"那報告事項,誠如我剛剛在開會的時候,我不斷拿著院會所記載的白紙黑字向大家所做的說明當天針對兩個報告事項,在場沒有任何委員,沒有任何黨團提出異議"},{"start":8464.312,"end":8487.287,"text":"院會確認了以後我們議事處的同仁完全依法來發出今天的會議通知那我想我作為今天的召委先就程序上面的事項先再次的不厭其煩的跟所有的委員再次的進行報告那至於其他委員有不同的看法我也都尊重大家發言的空間"},{"start":8488.268,"end":8515.729,"text":"那講話有道理沒有道理我相信所有看這場直播的人大家每一個人心裡都有一把尺我也不需要再多說什麼那我們現在是不是就先請宣讀因為今天針對我們所進行的那個討論的事項的那個議案我們有林思明委員楊瓊英委員以及"},{"start":8523.166,"end":8540.582,"text":"有三位委員提出運作要點的草案,我們是不是請宣讀。宣讀委員林思明等三人提案,立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會運作要點草案。一,立法院國家發展基金"},{"start":8542.028,"end":8565.478,"text":"不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會．下稱本會立法院職權行使法．下稱本法第45條規定即立法院．下稱本院第11屆第二會期第10次會議決議成立之本會運作處法律及與本院有關法令另有規定外依本要點行之本會由"},{"start":8566.098,"end":8591.948,"text":"本院各黨團依其在院會之席次比例推派共14人由國民黨黨團推派7人民進黨黨團推派6人臺灣民眾黨團推派1人組成4本會召集委員1人由所屬成員互選之處理本會會務並擔任會議主席5本會會議需由委員三分之一出席方得開會其決議以出席委員過半數同意之"},{"start":8592.628,"end":8615.948,"text":"同意行之但出席委員不足3人者不得議決必要時得以秘密會議方式行之6本會議本法第47條第二項規定詢問相關人員詢問需出於懇切之態度不得有強暴、脅迫或以其他意導致心理強制的狀態並不得強迫證人為不利己之公訴"},{"start":8616.989,"end":8624.196,"text":"及告知其有拒絕證言之權利及事由接受調查詢問之人員當據實答覆,決無逆勢增減本會調查"},{"start":8629.915,"end":8647.028,"text":"其間自民國113年12月18日至114年4月30日但經本會決議的延長之相關資料之查閱時間為每週一至週五上午九時至下午五時,八本會所調閱之文件、資料或物件"},{"start":8648.088,"end":8672.816,"text":"現由本會之委員親自查閱並署名於查閱登記部。9、查閱之任人對依法應保密之文件、資料或物件不得抄錄、攝影、影印、送讀、錄音或為其他複製行為亦不得吸離或傳輸至查閱場所外。10、本會對外行文得以本會名義為之本會委員未均決議不得以本會名義對外發言。"},{"start":8675.312,"end":8690.409,"text":"11.本會調查對象為國家發展委員會及其所屬行政院國家發展基金管理會等有關機關本會調查事項範圍如下1.國家發展基金刮鬍下身國家發展基金刮鬍下身國發基金之投資有無"},{"start":8692.042,"end":8716.625,"text":"因不當外力介入而作出不當投資決策﹐對投資標的所衍生之弊案﹐有無禍行放水之行為。﹐國發基金有無落實就其不當投資決策﹐強加評估檢討﹐有無評估是否能採取特定作為改善問題。﹐對於已無財政目的政策意義或已偏離政策目的等投資事業。"},{"start":8718.536,"end":8742.206,"text":"是否能有效改正或啟動退漲機制是國家發展委員會有無督促國發基金對於不符政策目的之投資事業依規定加強檢視推動退漲機制使國發基金符合國家產業發展策略充分投資於產業創新高科技發展能源能資源再生"},{"start":8743.126,"end":8772.341,"text":"等增加產業效益或改善產業結構之重要事業或計劃十二本會得要求有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料於必要時得依本法第47條第二項規定詢問相關人員並得依本法相關規定舉行聽證會十三本會會議召開時得邀請被調閱文件資料及物件之機關首長率同有關人員列席說明"},{"start":8772.964,"end":8772.985,"text":"時事"},{"start":8774.844,"end":8800.549,"text":"接受調查詢問之人員或受邀出席聽證會之人員得由律師相關專業人員等在場協助。15.本會所需之工作人員由本院秘書長指派之必要時本會得請求院長指派專業人員協助之。16.本會因於調查終結後30日內向院會提出調查報告書及處理意見,作為處理該特定議案或與立法委員職權相關事項之依據。17.聽證會報告因於"},{"start":8804.971,"end":8828.568,"text":"聽證會終結後15日內提出並作為審查特定議案之參考重要參考18本會與調查期間屆滿議案調查完畢並提出調查報告及處理意見後即行解散或與該屆立法委員任期屆滿時自動解散19本運作要點由本會通過後施行修正時一同宣讀完畢"},{"start":8830.336,"end":8839.618,"text":"好那我們現在進行處理那第一個請問在場的委員對於這個要點有沒有意見這個是不是可以請在場的委員有什麼意見沒有意見也按麥克風錄一下這樣我們可以把它完整的放到議事錄當中沒有意見沒有意見"},{"start":8857.662,"end":8860.704,"text":"沒有意見我們三個是提案的"},{"start":8873.22,"end":8890.897,"text":"好 那我們現在對於這個運作要點因為在場的委員對於剛剛所宣讀的條文因為剛剛宣讀的條文其實有非常多都是按照我們立法院職權行事法裡面相關的規定"},{"start":8892.018,"end":8916.555,"text":"也都符合我們過去在調查委員會成立議事的常規既然目前在場的委員對於我們整個運作的要點沒有其他反對的意見的話我們運作要點處理完畢請問對於主席剛剛所宣告的我們運作要點處理完畢請問在場有無異議"},{"start":8918.359,"end":8926.964,"text":"沒有沒有異議好 沒有異議喔 通過那在結束今天的議程以前我想要利用"},{"start":8929.545,"end":8948.691,"text":"這個時間特別的感謝在這個委員會剛成立的時候有非常多的意識同仁他們非常的辛苦那某個程度上也忍受了非常多的委屈特別感謝我們這個調查委員會的意識同仁到我們這個委員會來提供協助"},{"start":8949.671,"end":8970.856,"text":"特別是我右手邊的這位張參事他事實上在十幾天他就要退休了非常的資深服務40年我們真的特別感謝張參事在退休前夕竟然沒有用他的退休好好的去修一下架還在這邊陪我們開這個調查委員會那我想我就先暫以"},{"start":8972.196,"end":8988.164,"text":"今天召委主席的身份代表本委員會全體的委員向張參事致上最深層的謝意那也非常感謝今天所有議事同仁的辛勞跟各位委員的參與本日議事日程到此處理完畢 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}