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11:05:33","會議時間":"2025-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案（114年度至116年度）」【詢答及處理，預算提案於10月8日上午10時截止收件】【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.30409375,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.172218750000003,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.14409375,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.26034375,"end":74.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.36971875,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.90909375000001,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.23784375000001,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.05534375,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.75534375000001,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.02909375,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.20471875000001,"end":103.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.22909375,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.35471875,"end":115.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.69221875000001,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":115.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.40034375,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.00784375,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.66159375000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.69534375,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.81721875000001,"end":126.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.53846875,"end":128.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.56346875,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":133.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.59659375,"end":152.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.95034375,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.86971875,"end":140.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.62909375,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.56409375,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.30096875,"end":165.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.56659375,"end":186.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.00909375,"end":167.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.63721875000002,"end":171.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.48909375000002,"end":173.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.50596875000002,"end":173.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.80971875,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.54784375,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.18471875,"end":177.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.72471875000002,"end":177.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.73034375,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.49346875,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.47721875000002,"end":235.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.75034375,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.83346875,"end":247.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.56284375,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.56221875000003,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.99659375000002,"end":251.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.17784375000002,"end":248.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.37596875000003,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.95784375000002,"end":254.80971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.80971875000003,"end":262.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.21471875,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.06596875,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.58909375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.94346875,"end":268.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.17096875000004,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.60471875,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.14034375,"end":273.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.19096875,"end":272.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.32596875,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.14409375,"end":275.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.66284375000004,"end":278.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.37534375,"end":280.66221875},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這個68億有包含其他的譬如說我們的勤奸針的系統這個是立體嘛有水下 有水面無人艇然後還有無人機以外我們還有次世代的雷達還有紅外線還有環島的港艦那我了解那請教一下主委不過因為我們過去這個海巡署"},{"start":192.396,"end":217.248,"text":"從107年到108年還有112年到116年都有兩項無人機的採購但是這個計畫好像執行力都有一點落差我舉最近的112年到116年的計畫因為無人機的引擎技術超越廠商能力所及所以沒有辦法執行這個案子然後你們在去年9月修正這個計畫"},{"start":218.388,"end":230.683,"text":"所以這個計畫到目前為止都等於是沒有在執行跟委員報告海巡署是國防部以外中華民國政府最早使用無人機的我是說這個計畫國內的產業也是持續在發展預算通過給你們之後"},{"start":236.85,"end":251.574,"text":"有沒有信心目前產業的成熟度已經相當的成熟目前我們的規劃都可以來達成買到我們所需要的所以現有的無人機體有符合現在的需求嗎還是還要再等"},{"start":252.411,"end":267.165,"text":"現有的無人機我們需要再更升級那我說預算特別預算通過之後你們要買的是現有的已經有現貨就對了對已經有現貨就對了技術上成熟的商品化了你們在執行上面的確有出現問題因為客製化那第二"},{"start":273.911,"end":285.396,"text":"執行有問題的這個是因為我們客製化那現在沒有客製化就對了那廠商最後能力還不到那個是國內整體產業的問題那最後一點時間主委請我請一下顧部長最後一個問題你邊走我邊念這個烏克蘭總統俄羅斯基有點名台灣這個零件用於俄軍的無人機跟飛彈有這件事情嗎"},{"start":303.144,"end":330.967,"text":"我這邊沒有相關的訊息沒有相關的訊息那有去了解嗎因為這個是他們的總統哲倫斯基親自寫出來的就是說台灣有這個零件用在這個俄國的無人機跟飛彈那你們有去了解嗎因為這個報導出來之後你們有去了解嗎我想有關於這些民間他們在相關的這些零組件的供應鏈上面我想是可能是相當的"},{"start":333.683,"end":355.826,"text":"有一個不是那麼直接的一個管道那我們沒有辦法能夠排除但是我們也沒有辦法進一步來進行確認因為相關的這些都屬於民間的部分你們要去確認喔因為就算是民間的你們也要去確認喔就像說台塑去買的這個俄羅斯的油一樣啊那現在如果民間的這些零件用在俄國的無人機的話"},{"start":356.807,"end":376.509,"text":"我覺得這對台灣人的形象不好而且這個是指輪司機他指輪司機他直接點名因為民間部我想我們會跟經濟部一起來這個來調查清楚好不好要不要我們跟經濟部一起來來調查清楚那調查結果再跟等級來做說明再跟李坤城委員來做報告好不好好 謝謝李坤城委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時59分）謝謝主席，我們請海委會管主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["李委員坤城：主委慢慢來，沒關係。"],["管主任委員碧玲：林委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。這次特別預算在海委會的部分有兩百九十五億六千多萬，包含強化國土防衛能量279億，其中「籌補各式海空無人載具」編列了四十億九千多萬。當初你們編的預算，我相信我們都會支持，的確我們海、陸、空要一起來力挺、支援……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我請問一下主委，這個特別預算只有無人機嗎？有包含無人艇嗎？預計籌補多少海空無人載具？需求的類型為何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們在無人機的部分有分近程、中程、艦載，還有特勤所需，總共加起來是451架，其中近程……"],["李委員坤城：你是說這次特別預算要籌補的是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，總共是451架，我們分年編列的話，絕大部分都編在這次的特別預算，希望能夠一次補足，因為我們有非常急迫的需要。"],["李委員坤城：希望這次特別預算能夠補足451架就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：這是無人機的部分，所以這次沒有無人艇的部分？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，其中有艦載的部分，我們這次特別預算還不夠，未來要補後面的尾數，但是我們需要趕快能夠上路。另外，無人艇的部分，我們目前的規劃是25艘。"],["李委員坤城：也還在這次特別預算裡面？"],["管主任委員碧玲：也是在特別預算裡面。水下的部分，我們大概實驗性的會先引進，數量比較是個位數，我們先引進。"],["李委員坤城：所以水面25，然後水下的是實驗型的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，但是我們也有水下聲納的部分。"],["李委員坤城：水下聲納是特別的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們水下聲納現在必須要加強部署，譬如說，有好幾次黑盒子是靠海巡的水下聲納，第一時間很快的先去側掃以後定位。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看主委有去參觀國防展，你說要投入68億推無人載具，可是我們看到預算大概是四十幾億，所以多出來的二十幾億……"],["管主任委員碧玲：基本上不到68億，因為這期間還有包括其他的情監偵在裡面，這68億有包含其他，譬如說我們的情監偵系統，這個是立體嘛！有水下、水面無人艇，及無人機以外，我們還有次世代雷達、紅外線、環島的港監等等。"],["李委員坤城：好，我了解。請教主委，過去海巡署從107年到108年，還有112年到116年，都有兩項無人機的採購，但是這個計畫執行率好像都有點落差，我舉最近112年到116年的這個計畫為例，因為無人機的引擎技術超越廠商能力所及，所以沒有辦法執行這個案子，然後你們在去年9月修正這個計畫，所以這個計畫到目前為止都等於是沒有在執行。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海巡署是國防部以外，中華民國政府最早使用無人機的。"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說這個計畫。"],["管主任委員碧玲：國內的產業也是持續在發展。"],["李委員坤城：我在擔心接下來預算通過給你們之後，對於執行率有沒有信心？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前產業的成熟度已經相當成熟，我們的規劃都可以達成，買到我們所需要的。"],["李委員坤城：所以現有的無人機有符合現在的需求嗎？還是還要再等？"],["管主任委員碧玲：現有的無人機，我們需要再更升級。"],["李委員坤城：對，我說特別預算通過之後，你們要買的是現有的、已經有現貨就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["李委員坤城：已經有現貨就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，技術上成熟、商品化了。"],["李委員坤城：好。因為過去你們在執行上面的確有出現問題，我覺得……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為是客製化，執行有問題是因為我們客製化。"],["李委員坤城：現在沒有客製化了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：廠商最後能力還不到，那個是國內整體產業的問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，主委請回。最後一點時間我請一下顧部長，最後一個問題，部長邊走，我邊唸，烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基有點名臺灣的零件用於俄軍的無人機跟飛彈，有這件事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我這邊沒有相關的訊息。"],["李委員坤城：沒有相關的訊息，那有去了解嗎？因為這是他們的總統澤倫斯基親自寫出來的，就是臺灣有零件用在俄國的無人機跟飛彈，你們有去了解嗎？這個報導出來之後你們有去了解嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有關於民間在相關零組件的供應鏈上面，我想可能是有一個不是那麼直接的管道，我們沒有辦法能夠排除，但是我們也沒有辦法進一步確認，因為相關的這些都屬於民間的部分。"],["李委員坤城：你要去確認喔！因為就算是民間的，你們也要去確認，就像台塑去買了俄羅斯的油一樣啊！現在如果民間這些零件用在俄國無人機的話，我覺得這對臺灣的形象不好，而且這個是澤倫斯基直接點名的。"],["顧部長立雄：關於民間的部分，我想我們會跟經濟部一起了解。"],["李委員坤城：這個調查清楚，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們跟經濟部一起清查。"],["李委員坤城：調查清楚，調查結果再跟本席說明。"],["主席：查清楚再向李坤城委員報告，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}