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time no see我想今天要特別請部長本一職權針對卓榮泰卓院長在花蓮發生這麼大的一個"},{"start":40.619,"end":66.355,"text":"驗射服潰壩事件超過可能超過20人罹難的這麼大的一個災情8000多位災民23號發生9月23號9月24號部長到院長到花蓮就聲明要來查查相關的失職的責任部長部長"},{"start":70.762,"end":99.026,"text":"本席在這裡期許部長能夠很務實的查核清楚面對啊可能超過20位不幸罹難的這些鄉親亡靈啊面對這些亡靈希望部長本於職責本於良知能夠把過程啊能夠查查非常清楚"},{"start":99.861,"end":127.574,"text":"能夠水落石出本席在這裡就這段時間所接觸到所有相關的政府作為我們在這裡照時間序大概順一下本席在這裡講我相信法務部昨天也看了本席質詢卓院長雖然態度很惡劣但是本席把所有關鍵點"},{"start":129.161,"end":142.704,"text":"跟實際的證據都已經提出來了在這裡再請部長就所有查核的工作務必要公正 務必要查明從9月21號美國發現有這個驗射壺9月26號陽明交大也發現有這個驗射壺農業部成立了這個監測應變小組"},{"start":158.257,"end":183.031,"text":"接下來就要去了解他到底有什麼因應積極的作為當事情發生整個光復鄉親華人上面這麼大的一個驗射壺當時啊大概一千多萬噸一千多萬噸的水一千多萬噸立方的水在上面然後"},{"start":187.264,"end":214.486,"text":"地方不斷的提出立法院也針對驗射壺要處理台灣過去不是沒有處理驗射壺的經驗非常多次然後在8月13號立法院通過的丹拉斯颱風600億重建預算裡面把馬太安溪驗射壺已經放進去"},{"start":216.479,"end":240.056,"text":"當時農業部長清楚回答沒有積極的危險好那本席就從8月13號之前在他說還沒有危險之前回溯到8月11號8月11號由花蓮縣政府光復相公所經濟部農業部共同開會"},{"start":245.522,"end":272.435,"text":"針對艷澀湖事件當時已經從7月的1200萬方變成6000萬方就已經再三提醒經濟部 水利署必須要把兩個馬太安溪的開口題要把它補上強度要夠"},{"start":274.073,"end":291.704,"text":"告訴經濟部我們看一下農業部的報告農業部正式提出的報告我們看一下馬太安西的開口題馬太安西的開口題馬太安西的開口題這兩個開口題"},{"start":296.648,"end":317.012,"text":"這整個報告是完全拿農業部的報告本席在上面沒有多畫一條線上面的線跟標示全部是農業部標示出來的馬太安溪從上游流下來就是這個藍色的水線旁邊兩個開口題就是農業部認為會從這兩個題從這裡一流進去而且"},{"start":326.383,"end":352.98,"text":"今年農業部為什麼提出來因為在去年11月的康瑞颱風就是從這裡淹進去已經從那裡淹進去了一個颱風就淹進去了更不要說現在上游有9100萬噸的立方的水在那裡農業部 上一張農業部的圖"},{"start":355.489,"end":359.853,"text":"已經告訴他會從那裡進去8月11號的會議決議這邊強度 請經濟部補強強度要夠如果強度不夠的話水就會從那裡一煙進去剛剛 那張圖"},{"start":384.768,"end":410.318,"text":"這邊這兩個缺口進去的地方就是佛祖街就是整個光復市區就從這裡進去從空照圖我們也看得很清楚就從這裡進去所有的調查務必屬實而且這是有會議決議並且有錄音檔現在地方政府跟中央部會開會都要有錄音"},{"start":411.874,"end":438.515,"text":"以策安全都有錄音當時就講這兩個缺口一定要補一定要把它補住要有強度我們再看一下賴總統到花蓮不得了前進協調所的報告前進協調所的報告說15天10天還是15天就已經完成了5米高的堤防"},{"start":440.019,"end":464.367,"text":"10月4號災後10月4號完成5米高的堤防10月11號還要完成表面強化防水作業那為什麼8月11號已經告訴他都不做因為什麼災後突然知道要做而且一口氣做了2800多米那災前為什麼不做會議有決議為什麼不做"},{"start":468.919,"end":494.745,"text":"工人有沒有廢植植物再過來8月11號法務部要資料的話 縣政府應該都會給都有錄音檔還有會議決議8月11號要求大家協商以後農業部同意因為農業部在監測在監測這個驗測服"},{"start":500.214,"end":511.578,"text":"當夜色湖只要只要一流一流還不是潰壩只要一流就必須要發海嘯警報結果發了沒有完全沒有發為什麼沒有發海嘯警報等到賴總統來花蓮前進協調所第一頁"},{"start":531.059,"end":555.877,"text":"紀念城指揮官 政委報告第一頁就講 驗社福的警戒發布驗社福的警戒發布 就這張圖這全部是行政院自己的資料就必須要發海嘯警報"},{"start":561.235,"end":582.792,"text":"行政院自己的資料就說要發海嘯警報8月11號花蓮縣政府關乎相公所農業部經濟部的會議決議越南政府只要一流就要發海嘯警報這是中央做的圖明5秒 停5秒 反覆9遍85秒 一個run 85秒要不斷地去發布"},{"start":589.76,"end":611.534,"text":"結果艷澀湖潰壩沒有任何人民聽到聲音因為農業部沒有響海嘯警報這個都在8月11號的會議當中都講得非常的清楚不只有會議的決議還有錄音檔"},{"start":616.109,"end":632.8,"text":"地方政府現在跟中央部會開會每一場都要錄音可能以後還要錄影接下來部長本席剛剛講這兩個決議您了解了嗎你可以再查核沒有關係可以嗎"},{"start":634.166,"end":650.619,"text":"這部分委員關心的這個委員提到是不是有疏忽的一個問題我想這個花蓮地檢署在9月24號都已經主動來分案來做一個就是卓榮泰院長到花蓮發飆"},{"start":653.295,"end":678.136,"text":"發飆說要就職 下午地檢署就出動了那個9月20日 那個因為第一時間第一時間發你地檢署就很關注這個問題了然後就是已經主動分案了那當然會看 會仔細調查看各環節有什麼樣的一個疏失的一個問題我想這個今年分案 我就對各案我就不表示意見了我就不表示意見了北溪市你查明清楚"},{"start":679.585,"end":708.667,"text":"那我想這個這個剛才那個召委那個總裁有提到就是這個我想各個環節的應該調的資料應該做一個查證我現在發你記者書應該他會本席在這裡講就是不要這個事實又被吃案吃掉在這裡再讓你看一下什麼叫做土石流及大規模崩塌防災疏散避難作業規定第三條"},{"start":711.243,"end":732.397,"text":"第二項第一款疏散避難的路線還有收容所的選定由農業部 人民會國防部 經濟部 交通部衛福部 內政部來輔導選定所有的避難收容計畫這個會沒有開過有開過 請法務部"},{"start":741.355,"end":764.331,"text":"請行政委把會議記錄拿出來600人疏散的疏散計畫 有沒有8600人的疏散計畫 有沒有還不止第三條第二項第一款 還有第三項第四款"},{"start":765.592,"end":788.965,"text":"所有收容所的整備工作要由五個部會來開會來輔導什麼時候開過會資料在哪裡本席已經把明確的資料在這裡公開再來這是法律規定再來撤離計畫"},{"start":792.991,"end":819.594,"text":"撤離計畫 執行單位我想昨天部長也在現場本席講得很清楚經濟部的水災危險顯示地區疏散撤離標準作業中央督導 地方政府督導第五條第二項第五款第五條第二項第六款"},{"start":820.805,"end":846.755,"text":"撤離的單位是哪個單位部長知道嗎負責強制撤離的單位是哪個單位這不就依法令的該誰去主辦的就是要去做一個處理不是嘛 本席問你您看過法律法條了沒有嘛或是災害防救法撤離作業的第十條撤離作業由鄉鎮公所負責這是法律明文規定"},{"start":849.349,"end":865.941,"text":"但是你們有交過鄉鎮公所整個撤離計畫嗎行政院有嗎這七個部會有嗎再過來謠言遍地災害防救法"},{"start":867.925,"end":894.756,"text":"對於謠言法辦的事情請問法務部現在有辦了哪一條災區的謠言嗎 有沒有這部分應該有發你地檢署來做一個處理我想這個他已經分案在做一個偵辦的而且這個是一個他案的一個所以所有的有些不法的我想這個都可以在這個案件來做一個處理因為法務部必須在第一時間以正視聽"},{"start":896.576,"end":923.803,"text":"讓所有的謠言不會雞飛塵世法務部應該要像誰說了陳菊怎麼樣一天就查辦出來了誰說了行政院怎麼樣幾個小時就抓人了誰說賴總統不到半天就逮人了現在災區"},{"start":926.411,"end":939.141,"text":"是比這些官員都還要重要因為他事案什麼時候能查辦出來請盡快跟本委員會提出查辦的實際的狀況謝謝部長 可以嗎"},{"start":943.459,"end":957.705,"text":"這個偵查的內容 偵查的 這個我們尊重檢察官的偵查計畫因為偵查不公開 你可以把偵查計畫 偵查計畫也可以送來沒有關係啊偵查計畫我不能 也沒有關係 你說你能公布的公布出來就好嘛對不對 很簡單嘛"},{"start":961.666,"end":988.877,"text":"進檢 消息比你們都還清楚嘛對不對 怎麼不要講這個進檢有哪一個消息他不知道不要提那些那還是我們要去進檢打聽部長 我們盡快把這些事情盡快把這些事情回憶名義好不好該查的要查在我們的權管之內 我們會來做一個處理謝謝該你們查的 盡快"},{"start":991.735,"end":992.319,"text":"好 謝謝副委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1052,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時22分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，好久不見！今天我要特別請部長本於職權，針對卓榮泰卓院長在花蓮發生這麼大一個堰塞湖潰壩事件，可能有超過20人罹難、八千多位災民這麼大的一個災情，9月23號發生，9月24號院長到花蓮就聲明要查察相關失職責任。部長，本席在這裡期許部長能夠很務實的查核清楚，面對可能超過20位不幸罹難的這些鄉親亡靈，希望部長本於職責、本於良知，能夠把過程查察清楚，讓真相水落石出。","本席在這裡就這段時間所接觸到的所有相關政府作為，依照時間序大概順一下。我相信法務部昨天也看了本席質詢，卓院長雖然態度很惡劣，但本席已經把所有關鍵點跟實際的證據都提出來，在這裡再請部長就所有查核工作，務必要公正、務必要查明。","9月21號美國發現有這個堰塞湖，9月26號陽明交大也發現有這個堰塞湖。農業部成立了監測應變小組，接下來我們就要去了解它到底有什麼因應的積極作為？當事情發生，整個光復鄉親譁然，上面這麼大的一個堰塞湖，當時大概有一千多萬立方米的水在上面，然後地方不斷提出質疑，立法院也針對堰塞湖問題要求處理。臺灣過去不是沒有處理堰塞湖的經驗，有非常多次；8月13號立法院通過的丹娜絲颱風600億重建預算裡面，已經把馬太鞍溪堰塞湖放進去，當時農業部長清楚回答沒有立即危險。","本席就從8月13號部長說還沒有危險之前，回溯到8月11號；8月11號由花蓮縣政府、光復鄉公所、經濟部、農業部共同開會，針對當時已經從7月的1,200萬立方米變成6,000萬立方米的堰塞湖，再三提醒經濟部水利署必須把兩個馬太鞍溪的開口堤補上，而且強度要夠，當時就已經告訴經濟部。","接下來我們看一下農業部正式提出的報告，關於馬太鞍溪的開口堤，這整個報告是完全拿農業部的報告，本席在上面沒有多畫一條線，上面的線跟標示全部都是農業部標示出來的。馬太鞍溪從上游流下來就是這個藍色的水線，旁邊兩個開口堤就是農業部認為會從這兩個堤溢流進去。而且今年農業部為什麼提出來？因為去年11月的康芮颱風就是從這裡淹進去，一個颱風就淹進去了，更不要說現在上游有9,100萬立方米的水在那裡。我們看上一張農業部的圖，已經告訴他會從那裡進去。8月11號的會議決議就請經濟部補強，強度要夠，如果強度不夠的話，水就會從那裡溢淹進去。我們再看剛剛那張圖，這兩個缺口進去的地方就是佛祖街、就是整個光復市區、就是從這裡進去，從空照圖也看得很清楚，就是從這裡進去。所有的調查務必屬實，而且這有會議決議並且有錄音檔，現在地方政府跟中央部會開會都要有錄音，以策安全，都有錄音，當時就講這兩個缺口一定要補強它的強度。","我們再看一下，賴總統到花蓮，不得了，前進協調所的報告說10天或是15天就已經完成五米高的堤防，在災後的10月4號就已經完成五米高的堤防，10月11號還要完成表面強化防水作業，為什麼8月11號已經告訴他了卻都不做？為什麼災後突然知道要做？而且一口氣做了兩千八百多米！災前為什麼不做？會議有決議為什麼不做？公務人員有沒有廢弛職務？","再來，法務部要資料的話，縣政府應該都會給，都有錄音檔，還有會議決議。8月11號要求大家協商以後，農業部同意，因為農業部在監測這個堰塞湖，只要堰塞湖溢流，還不是潰壩，只要溢流就必須要發海嘯警報，結果發了沒有？完全沒有發！為什麼沒有發海嘯警報？等到賴總統來花蓮，前進協調所指揮官季連成政委的報告第一頁就講堰塞湖的警戒發布，就是這張圖，這全部是行政院自己的資料，行政院自己的資料就說要發海嘯警報。8月11號花蓮縣政府、光復鄉公所、農業部、經濟部的會議決議，堰塞湖只要溢流就要發海嘯警報，這是中央做的圖，每5秒停5秒，反覆9遍，一個round 85秒，要不斷地去發布。結果堰塞湖潰壩，沒有任何人民聽到聲音，因為農業部沒有發海嘯警報！這在8月11號的會議當中都講得非常清楚，不只有會議的決議，還有錄音檔，地方政府現在跟中央部會開會，每一場都要錄音，可能以後還要錄影。","部長，本席剛剛講的這兩個決議，您了解了嗎？你可以再查核沒有關係，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分委員提到是不是有疏忽的問題，我想花蓮地檢署在9月24號都已經主動分案來做一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：就是卓榮泰院長到花蓮發飆說要究責，下午地檢署就出動了，本席了解……"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實第一時間花蓮地檢署就很關注這個問題，然後就已經主動分案了，當然會仔細調查看各環節有什麼樣的疏失。既然已經分案，對個案我就不表示意見了。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請你查明清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才總召有提到，各個環節應該調的資料、應該做的查證，我相信花蓮地檢署應該會通案偵辦。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，本席在這裡要講的是，這個事實不要又被吃案吃掉。再讓你看一下什麼叫做土石流及大規模崩塌防災疏散避難作業規定，第三條第二項第一款的規定是疏散避難路線及收容所的選定，要由農業部、原民會、國防部、經濟部、交通部、衛福部、內政部來輔導，選定所有的避難收容計畫。這個會沒有開過，如果有開過，請行政院把會議紀錄拿出來。600人的疏散計畫有沒有？8,600人的疏散計畫有沒有？不只第三條第二項第一款，還有第三項第四款也規定所有收容所的整備工作要由五個部會來開會、來輔導。什麼時候開過會？資料在哪裡？本席已經把明確的資料在這裡公開，這是法律規定。再來是撤離計畫，關於執行單位，我想昨天部長也在現場，本席講得很清楚，按經濟部水災危險潛勢地區疏散撤離標準作業程序，包括中央督導、地方政府督導，依照第五條第二項第五款、第五條第二項第六款，撤離的單位是哪個單位？部長知道嗎？負責強制撤離的單位是哪個單位？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分就依法令，該誰去主辦的就是要去做一個處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：不是，本席是問您看過法條了沒有？或是依據災害防救法第十條，撤離作業由鄉鎮公所負責，這是法律明文規定，但是你們有教過鄉鎮公所整個撤離計畫嗎？行政院有嗎？這七個部會有嗎？","再過來是謠言遍地。災害防救法對於謠言法辦的事情有所規定，請問法務部現在有辦了哪一條災區的謠言嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分應該由花蓮地檢署來做處理，已經分案在偵辦了，而且是「他」字案，所以所有的不法都可以在案件中處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為法務部必須在第一時間以正視聽……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們在9月24號當日就分案了。"],["傅委員崐萁：讓所有的謠言不會積非成是，法務部應該要像誰說了陳菊怎麼樣的案子，你1天就查辦出來了；誰說了行政院怎麼樣，幾個小時就抓人了；誰說了賴總統怎麼樣，不到半天就逮人了。現在災區比這些官員都還要重要，你的「他」字案什麼時候能查辦出來？請儘快跟本委員會提出查辦的實際狀況，謝謝部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於偵查的內容，我們尊重檢察官的偵查計畫，因為偵查不公開，所以我沒辦法做一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：你也可以把偵查計畫送來，沒有關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查計畫我不能公布……"],["傅委員崐萁：也沒有關係，你把能公布的公布出來就好了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：進度可以。"],["傅委員崐萁：很簡單，「鏡檢」的消息比你們都還清楚，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不要講那個啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：怎麼不要講那個？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這些……"],["傅委員崐萁：「鏡檢」有哪一個消息不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不要去提那些。"],["傅委員崐萁：不要提那些，還是我們要去「鏡檢」打聽？部長，我們儘快把這些事情……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是媒體的事情，媒體的事情我們不管。"],["傅委員崐萁：儘快把這些事情回應民意，好不好？該查的要查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：在我們的權管之內，我們會來做處理，謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：該你們查的，請儘快。"],["主席：謝謝傅委員，也請部長這裡……因為畢竟這次的災情很嚴重，是眾所矚目的案件，有關於謠言的部分，要請地檢署多積極地去調查、處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，「鏡檢」的事情無人不知、無人不曉，你不必迴避這個事情啦！"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}