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我請來政部長請內政部長 劉部長教育委員 你好部長 辛苦了房價這麼貴"},{"start":29.136,"end":44.081,"text":"你們變成任性預算 任性國防 任性防災我知道你很辛苦 掩飾這個事情有人在社會有些聲音 要有宅哥威的人要有菩薩的心腸 人家蓋不住就要架 沒有必要"},{"start":51.584,"end":59.569,"text":"我請教妳喔,在今年的風態來開始,妳是裁縫中心的指揮官。這是任務編組的。開設幾次。為今年開始,開設幾次喔?應該是四、五拜吧。我可能要詢問一下,不好意思。沒關係,頭一拜就是七月初五,我們台南的丹納斯,頭一拜嘛。"},{"start":78.137,"end":90.825,"text":"再來就是7月2月放水災再來這個8月10日我們一級開始就是在放太陽流再來最好可能就是9月2、3嘛來 我請教你就是說你卡電話給錢來這邊補充你放完是到1日9月7、4還是9月7、39月7、39月7、3嘛"},{"start":107.045,"end":118.128,"text":"本身在這裡跟你傾聽 不行動是大行這就是菩薩的心動 你如果沒有靠這種定位今天的聖夢絕對是有夠淺蕩的啦但是你求這個規定中 你的中間 天下要收到大行大行公認 你說他 沒必要"},{"start":129.81,"end":138.175,"text":"你如果沒有靠這兩個電話 如果沒有代替這個團隊他最後送給你的資料這個模型是 高的利益 才不是高的利益利益高的利益嘛齁所以你每天三十點鐘的時間 你來做應變然後核達這個命令 坦白講這後面要求職檢調單位去查 因為這有卡到你們名"},{"start":158.986,"end":175.533,"text":"本省跟你說 你在九尾車山跟卡士頓電圍因為你是九尾二山跟升陸這個採訪中心之前那一半 你是在八尾十二升陸的所以表示你有去接納到一些專家跟你說的建議跟評估這本省在這裡送給你一個傾聽 不行動的台詞"},{"start":182.97,"end":193.24,"text":"如果沒有,這班的上門絕對不是這樣而已不管百姓六百的體體多少就是已經把大量的人靠在這裡移出所以這是有很多人面向依然這本身對你的傾聽,來都要保重在這裏裁縫中心沒有設立的進程"},{"start":208.365,"end":218.412,"text":"這個N15的款式是不是 內政部長是不是要整層的款式都進補所以在這個中間 你要簽名就不像內政部長這樣當然 當他問你說沒有這次的費用 本省也可以接受"},{"start":231.806,"end":239.134,"text":"但是這種東西是隨時會爆發的東西隨時會有地雷火爆 陰暴的危險你沒有這樣做是你建議內政部長找台台的團隊 立法院的團隊那時候內政部長他自己去找 你有參與嗎"},{"start":251.773,"end":265.806,"text":"一開始的人 我先跟委員報告七個月以來 我們成立以後我們有專家的會議 還有一個非常重要的跨部會的會議那在跨部會的會議裡面 你有在先過去給裁判中心的職位說要求的"},{"start":267.133,"end":291.206,"text":"做這個動作沒有啦那是勞保長 那時候紀委官的時候他覺得說這應該要找更多的專家來討論進展也有夠 我跟你說他的紀委官是8月12日升職一半之後還被解除之後第四次升職是高危二三的事情啦所以8月12日到他9月13日去打這通電話你有做成這個會議記錄的關係拜託紀委中心的紀委官去做這個事情沒有啦我跟委員報告"},{"start":297.25,"end":324.263,"text":"我們要擺個實例 如果有台灣料理喔那時候 老支會官買了老部長也一直關心這個議題所以我們也有在討論 不是說因為你說沒有這時的危險 當機時的時空 北京本身也同意嘛清華萬棟 到高清棟這個中間的特區過程中你們有用 雷震波就是這個採訪中心的支會 中心的支會官有提出這個建議嗎啦"},{"start":326.224,"end":336.374,"text":"我向委員報告 我們提出來也是由專家來評估的你請到一個專家楊交大的團隊他過去給你的報告他的評估報告從7月26號持續的一直在調整所以他的報告跟你說的就是沒有這些危險"},{"start":345.953,"end":359.74,"text":"他們是針對整個... 啊 內政部踢到這裡 報告都要一天一天在一天的時間裡面去做那個決定 下那個命令今天 我們坦白說 結論來說是救很多人啦 不管是往生去這裡的人 請不得我不是在對救這些人啦 不會被我按嘛你這無關啦 沒要擔責 裡面是無關的領域啊嘛這14 20個耶 今天阿姨沒下那個命令啦 有可能兩爸阿姨想喔"},{"start":376.636,"end":381.18,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 整個的防災過程中齁是中央 地方都要通力合作的然後各有他的權責我只要要通力合作啦我現在在說人家有合作問題在你那裡漏屍淋漓 你還聽不聽"},{"start":404.346,"end":415.155,"text":"你那個詳細 現在針對協議員的問題喔你用書面詳細打給他你把事情放到心肝來嘛這是一個正在這裡的態度呢你是要打人家所有的事務官呢大家覺得沒用沒用啦那白天 白天就有人護航啊不是這樣嗎"},{"start":428.714,"end":453.759,"text":"這樣就表示未來這個事情有可能會發生在行政團隊裡面他有一個跨部會的聯繫匯報這個聯繫匯報裡面各部會都有參加你把聯繫匯報裡面你有提出這個建議我看書面提出來這個不是提出一個正式的建議是在要討論的時候劉部長覺得說應該再找其他的專家來一起來那這個大家都可以同意的時間的關係你寫一個報告給消委員了解好不好針對他的問題好不好 消委員謝謝"},{"start":458.697,"end":460.683,"text":"好 接下來請葛如君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1056,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（12時8分）主席，我請內政部長。"],["主席：請內政部劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝委員你好。"],["謝委員龍介：部長，辛苦了！當家方知柴米貴，你們編這筆預算，訴求韌性預算、韌性國防、韌性防災。我知道你很辛苦，但對於堰塞湖這件事，社會上如果有一些聲音，身在高位的人要有菩薩心腸啦！不要動不動就要告，沒必要啦！","我請教你，今年颱風季以來，你是災防中心的指揮官……"],["劉部長世芳：這是任務編組。"],["謝委員龍介：開設幾次？"],["劉部長世芳：從今年開始開設幾次？"],["謝委員龍介：應該有四、五次吧！"],["劉部長世芳：我可能要詢問一下，不好意思。"],["謝委員龍介：不要緊。第一次就是7月5日我們臺南丹娜絲風災，那是第一次嘛！再來就是7月28日水災。8月12日同樣一級開設，就是因為楊柳颱風，最後可能就是9月23日。我要請教你的就是，你打電話給前內政部長李鴻源是哪一天？9月4日還是9月3日？"],["劉部長世芳：9月3日。"],["謝委員龍介：9月3日嘛！本席在此給你肯定啦！這是不幸中之大幸，這就是菩薩心腸。要是你沒打這通電話，今天的傷亡絕對非常慘重啦！但是在救災過程中，你的長官要推給地方，地方說你，你又指責他，這沒有必要啦！如果你沒打這通電話、沒有臺大這個團隊……他們最後送給你這份資料、模型的時間是9月20日還是9月21日？"],["劉部長世芳：21日。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你在短短30個鐘頭的時間內應變，然後下達這個命令。坦白講，針對後續究責，檢調單位會查，因為事涉人命，但是本席要跟你說的是，你在9月3日才打這通電話，這次災防中心9月23日成立，先前那一次則是在8月12日成立的，所以代表你接納了一些專家給你的建議與評估，本席在此對你算是肯定，這是不幸中的大幸！否則這次的傷亡絕對不只這樣而已啦！不管8,600人中撤退多少人，總之已經把大量人口從這裡移出，讓很多人倖免於難，這點本席對你表示肯定啦！","農業部長，在颱風中心未設立之前，堰塞湖的權責是不是歸屬於農業部？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是農業部林保署。"],["謝委員龍介：所以在這當中，你的敏銳度就不像內政部長這樣啦！當然當時問你，你說沒有立即的危險，本席也可以接受啦！但是這種是隨時會爆發的事，隨時會像地雷、火炮，一樣有引爆的危險，你卻沒有這樣做。是你建議內政部長去找臺大、李鴻源的團隊，還是內政部長自己找的？你有參與嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，一開始，7月26日我們成立專家會議以後，還有一個非常重要的就是跨部會會議，在跨部會會議裡……"],["謝委員龍介：你們有作成決議給災防中心的指揮官，要求她做這個動作嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：那是劉部長在擔任指揮官的時候，覺得應該找更多專家討論，之前也有跟我講。"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你，指揮中心是8月12日成立一次以後，第四次成立是9月23日的事了，所以從8月12日直到9月3日她打這通電話為止，你們有會議紀錄顯示作成決議，拜託災防中心指揮官去做這些事嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，8月12日楊柳颱風過了之後，劉指揮官、劉部長也一直關心這個議題，所以我們也在討論，而不是……"],["謝委員龍介：不要緊啦！你就跟我講。你當時說沒有立即的危險，以當時的時空背景，本席也同意嘛！但在蓄水量從一千萬多噸達到九千萬噸的過程中，你們有沒有向內政部，也就是災防中心的指揮官提出這個建議？"],["陳部長駿季：我向委員報告，我們提出來的也是經由專家評估的……"],["謝委員龍介：你請哪個專家？"],["陳部長駿季：陽交大團隊。"],["謝委員龍介：他們多久給你們報告？"],["陳部長駿季：他們的評估報告從7月26日持續調整。"],["謝委員龍介：所以他們的報告跟你講的就是沒有立即的危險？"],["陳部長駿季：他們是針對整個……"],["謝委員龍介：內政部拿到報告後，在短短一天的時間之內做那個決定、下那個命令，坦白說，今天就結論而言是救了很多人啦！不過這些往生的人很不值。我不是在追究責任啦！但是皮要繃緊嘛！政務官如果沒有承擔，下面的事務官就放鬆了嘛！一次死了20人欸！但如果沒下那個命令，有可能是200人以上喔！如果沒有下令撤退8,600人……不管有能力撤退或沒有能力撤退啦！大家總是盡力做了，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，整個防災過程是中央、地方都要通力合作的，而且各有其權責。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道要通力合作啦！我現在也說這些人有合作，問題在於你那邊螺絲鬆了，這樣還聽不懂？給我一個數據，你是在哪一天拿出哪一份報告的？"],["主席：部長，針對謝委員的問題，請你用書面詳細答復好不好？"],["謝委員龍介：你要把事情放在心裡嘛！這是負政治責任的態度！你是要帶領所有事務官的，如果大家覺得不要緊，就算出錯了，也有人護航啊！不是這樣嗎？這就表示這種事情未來仍可能再發生！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在整個政府、行政團隊裡面有一個跨部會聯繫會報，在這個聯繫會報裡面，各部會都參加，所以在……"],["謝委員龍介：如果你在聯繫會報裡面有提出這個建議，就拿來給我看看。"],["主席：把書面拿出來啦！"],["陳部長駿季：這不是提出正式的建議，而是在大家討論的時候，劉部長覺得應該再找其他專家一起討論，這也是大家都同意的。"],["主席：部長，基於時間的關係，你寫一份報告讓謝委員了解啦！要針對他的問題，好嗎？謝委員，謝謝。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}