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請經濟部部長好 請經濟部工部長這位好"},{"start":40.046,"end":67.558,"text":"國務長我剛在中華掛回來中華現在在辦這個2025年的台灣設計展設計展辦得不錯這是你們跟他們合辦嘛這算年度大事以前都在六都第四道的這個造化線那它是歷史有史以來最多的最大的它有三個展區位於中華到六港還有張嵐的店中叫餐位有19個展館我今天早上去了我看他們很努力在做市長 何市長代表你去了啦"},{"start":68.198,"end":89.838,"text":"對 因為我在立法院 沒有辦法我還找時間看看立法院如果有空的話彰化的引擎冠軍很多他也是從小企業這個言香對台灣的這個貢獻是非常大的可是這段時間他受到很大的一個衝擊特別是高關稅的這個衝擊那王惠美王縣長跟整個團隊非常認真我希望你這段時間"},{"start":91.139,"end":104.082,"text":"要多去幫忙 把台灣市長辦得更好上次已經有去過一次我跟院長也去過 我自己也再去過了這段時間要多幫忙 讓彰化可以發光讓全台灣 全世界可以看得到接下來我要問高關稅的衝擊美國商業部長明確的說晶片要555分"},{"start":117.523,"end":145.433,"text":"那鄭麗卿 鄭副院長已經講了不只沒有討論也絕對不接受嘛 對不對所以你們都貫徹絕對不接受 對不對副院長代表的就是我們台灣的態度那如果接受了或者實際做的嘴巴講的後來沒有達成實際做的變成真的五五分那就是賣台囉我給大家看一下美國的商業部長講的就是說"},{"start":146.724,"end":175.555,"text":"在川普的任期結束以前要將美國的晶片的自治力提升至少要變成40%目前美國只有2%喔台灣佔95%他明確的講到川普剩下三年多任內就要達到40%這代表什麼我們護國神山就變成半屏山了捏要半一半過對不對"},{"start":176.821,"end":183.605,"text":"而且裡面沒半啦就是台灣的部分還會持續增加啦現在台積電已經承諾1650億嘛那其中的他有6個廠恐怕到2028年大概可以量產了應該按照程序正常的程序應該適合3個廠"},{"start":195.592,"end":206.144,"text":"我給你一個非常明確的數據為2019年到2025年台積電在全球所有廠包括台灣、美國、日本、德國的投資"},{"start":208.379,"end":234.471,"text":"2019年是149億2020年是172億到了2021年第一次突破到300億最高最高的就是2020年了投資多少錢362億後來又降下來300億就算一年如果投資全球所有的廠包到台灣差不多38億那我現在跟你講我剛剛為什麼提醒你美國商業部長講這個話很重要"},{"start":235.759,"end":264.115,"text":"他在未來的三年多要把美國的自製力 晶片自製力要提高到40%這樣表示一年台積電去美國投資要250億你說1650嘛 對不對1650的1000億是未來的四年要投資一年就是250億那我剛剛跟你講最近這幾年投資多少錢包括台灣全球是300億當然會排擠啊這個就是現在你要去注意的地方"},{"start":265.168,"end":286.684,"text":"不是嘴巴講的一套 做的是一套如果只剩下五十億像最近這幾天 我是教他人教他人說我們的那個封測廠會不會受到影響台中市議會整個都鬧翻了在質疑說他們的一期跟二期馬上到年底要開工會不會受影響台積電都說正常包括台中科的過場"},{"start":290.066,"end":305.449,"text":"保定還有嘉義也會持續進行計畫不變嘛時間會不會有影響嘛保定我剛才說是非常理性物質科學的因為嘉義的部分主要是因為工程上他不是說政策上改變"},{"start":306.07,"end":326.718,"text":"對啦 所以部長你一定要讓台中嘉義的整個台積電的投資跟工程要如期那我現在跟你講更重要的明明這個錢就排擠了我算給你聽了一年台積電投資300億美國如果每一年都拿走250億當然就影響台灣投資這是第一 第二我現在給你比較給你看 你看喔"},{"start":327.711,"end":355.89,"text":"他講說美國這三個部長說他的投資金額要超過五千億的美金要從封測到整個封裝都要完整下面這句話最重要的要把整個產業鏈啊帶回美國才能達成他說要讓台灣參與要讓台灣參與而且整個產業鏈都要執行那這個跟前幾天鄭麗菁講的台灣模式不是一樣嗎你嘴巴說我絕對不同意五五分"},{"start":357.248,"end":384.515,"text":"結果你的台灣模式擴大對美投資做的是什麼政府跟企業分工然後政府還要去提供金融信訪的機制我也提供一些數據給你聽就是說如果到2028年到台積電在美國建了這個廠大概第三個廠可以開始量產這三個廠出來的話每月的量產是大概5.3萬片"},{"start":386.595,"end":403.364,"text":"現在我們5奈米以下在台灣現在越產能就是25萬片但是我們現在到2028年我們還會增建所以這個不可能是1比1問題來了嘛那問題來了嘛美國的商業部長怎麼可以講說他要五五分呢"},{"start":404.584,"end":432.474,"text":"在未來三年他要五五分然後更重要的我們的對美談判的代表我們的勝利金副院長提一個台灣模式我們又要去增加用一個產業部落把整個我們某些半導體的整個產業搬到美國去這樣不就是嘴巴講的跟實際做的不一樣嗎來 看一看喔你去對比對比勝利金的台灣模式到美國的商業部長要達成的五五分"},{"start":433.55,"end":461.697,"text":"不能說很像啊只能說一模一樣啊因為你嘴巴講的不同意可是你實際做出來的我剛剛提供的你的晶片的產業就會外移到美國去嘛我剛剛提供給那個委員是實際的數字就是按照台積電的實際上到二零二八年他三個廠蓋完大概五萬多片越產人那我們現在已經二十五萬現在美國商業部長跟你講也是你們他說這個信息在電視上專訪他很清楚講已經跟我們代表團已經傳達回來了嘛"},{"start":463.53,"end":478.344,"text":"那他要你投資這麼多錢 我跟你算過啦你的錢就是給美國一點兩百五十億你就排擠到台灣的投資嘛 這第一點嘛第二點他要達到五五分未來三年多你現在又把你的產業晶片的產業部落到美國去"},{"start":479.701,"end":505.954,"text":"那你不是影響到台灣的辦法所以人家才講說你的護國神山戲頓是不是變成半屏山了嘛實際上就是不可能嘛我剛才提到的2028年5萬多片我們現在已經25萬片所以現在才我們現在的五分之一而已啊所以那個美國的商業部長是亂講是不是這個我沒有辦法評論我沒有辦法評論他在電視上專訪直接清楚講說已經跟我們代表團明確的表達了結果我們這邊還講說沒有討論"},{"start":508.393,"end":523.355,"text":"你是說他胡說八道嗎我們的賴清德總統昨天還特別講什麼要協助美國成為AI的世界中心要讓美國再次偉大台灣的總統最重要是台灣偉大吧"},{"start":524.417,"end":545.252,"text":"美國再次偉大然後把我們的經費五五分嗎立足台灣佈局全球這本來就是政策的方向台灣半導體先做得非常好才有辦法美國才有辦法藉我們的半導體而發展現在就是你們不要只有喊口號你從實際我剛剛跟你講的不管是資金投入美國一年250億不管是"},{"start":547.333,"end":566.307,"text":"鄭麗晶提出來的台灣模式你就是我們晶片的從上中下游整個晶片肌肉的移轉到美國去嘛對不對你這個裡面牽扯到多少資金要出去多少的產業要出去多少工作機會要出去你們都有責任跟民眾講清楚耶你們到目前都沒講耶"},{"start":569.609,"end":573.473,"text":"不是只有台積電喔是整個晶片的產業喔部長你是很有名的財經專家不是只有台積電富國神山變半屏山整個晶片的產業"},{"start":587.507,"end":602.497,"text":"IG設計上面有聯發科 瑞玉聯融 封裝測試日月光矽屏 晶圓電池 設備跟材料商台達電 秦創 南亞你們所謂的台灣模式要過去 上中下游"},{"start":614.694,"end":629.508,"text":"这些厂商做全球布局在那边可以因此力量延伸赚钱这个当然也是好事台湾它会持续扩敞持续最先进的技术都在台湾资金是有限的"},{"start":630.609,"end":657.36,"text":"拿去美國當然台灣受影響啊你的人才會外流啊你的工作機會會過去啊去那邊是借力使力借他們的這些科技人才也好或是土地水電嘛這是借力使力嘛來保定我們有非常距離所以台灣有多少的上中下游的晶片產業多少資金會出去哪幾家會去影響多少工作機會部長再用詳細書面回答好不好時間有限要直接回答問題"},{"start":658.32,"end":683.423,"text":"那個已經站起來一段時間了這樣好不好我剛問的問題第一個不要只有嘴巴講我現在跟你講的都非常實際的台灣模式鄭麗菁清楚講我們晶片的晶片整個部聚落是要過去的你給我四個很具體的多少資金要出去要到美國去第二個資金對不對哪幾家是會去的"},{"start":684.318,"end":694.308,"text":"第三個更重要 影響多少的工作機會我們沒有辦法幫企業宣布事情我們可以講說是企業對外公開部長 部長 部長鄭麗菁講的是說你們採取分工政府有產業過去你們要開始要去做調查嘛 對不對"},{"start":707.528,"end":728.801,"text":"所以我剛講一分鐘嘛所以我剛要了四個指標這是鄭麗晶講的嘛你一個禮拜內給我好不好有多少資金出去你不是說產業出去然後你們負責去審核嗎我們不能幫企業宣布他的規劃除非他自行對外宣布那你把你鄭麗晶今天的規劃給我好不好謝謝張旗開委員"},{"start":734.726,"end":740.095,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員陳永康委員陳永康委員不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1664,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（14時11分）謝謝主席，請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請經濟部龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：龔部長，我剛從彰化趕回來，彰化現在在舉辦2025年臺灣設計展，辦得不錯，這是你們跟他們合辦嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這算年度大事，以前都在六都，第一次到彰化縣。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：它是有史以來最大的，有3個展區，從彰化到鹿港，還有彰南的田中和田尾，有19個展館，我今天早上去了，我看他們很努力在做，是何次長代表你去的。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，因為我都在立法院，沒有辦法，我會找時間去，如果立法院沒有開會的話。"],["張委員啓楷：彰化的隱形冠軍很多，它也是中小企業的原鄉，對臺灣的貢獻非常大，可是這段期間它受到很大的衝擊，特別是高關稅的衝擊，王惠美縣長和整個團隊非常認真，我希望你這段期間要多去幫忙，把臺灣設計展辦得更好。"],["龔部長明鑫：有，我上次已經去過一次，我跟院長去過，我自己也再去過。"],["張委員啓楷：這段期間多幫忙，讓彰化可以發光到全臺灣，全世界可以看得到。"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來我要問高關稅的衝擊，美國商業部長明確的說晶片要五五分，鄭麗君副院長也講了，不只沒有討論，也絕對不接受，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們會貫徹絕對不接受，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：鄭副院長代表的就是我們臺灣的態度。"],["張委員啓楷：如果接受了，或者嘴巴講的後來沒有達成，實際做的變成真的五五分，那就是賣臺喔！我給大家看一下，美國的商務部長說在川普的任期結束以前，要將美國的晶片自製率提升到至少40%，目前美國只有2%，臺灣占95%，他明確的講到川普剩下三年多的任期要達到40%，這代表什麼？我們護國神山就變成半屏山了，要搬一半過去，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有搬，臺灣的部分還是持續增加，現在台積電已經承諾1,650億元，它有6個廠，恐怕到2028年，按照正常的程序，可以量產的應該只有3個廠。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我給你一個非常明確的數據，從2019年到2025年，台積電在全球所有廠，包括臺灣、美國、日本、德國的投資，2019年是149億元，2020年是172億元，2021年第一次突破到300億元，最高的就是2022年投資362億元，後來又降下來300億元，它一年投資全球所有的廠包括臺灣差不多300億元。我剛剛為什麼提醒你美國商務部長講這個話很重要？他說在未來的三年多要把美國的晶片自製率提高到40%，表示一年台積電去美國投資要250億元，現在是1,650億元，1,650億元裡的1,000億元是未來四年要投資，一年就是250億元，我剛才跟你講最近這幾年投資多少錢？包括臺灣，全球是300億元，剩不到50億元，當然會排擠啊！這個就是你現在要注意的地方，不是嘴巴講一套，做的是一套，如果只剩下50億元，像最近這幾天，我是嘉義人，嘉義人都在問我們的封測廠會不會受到影響？臺中市議會整個都鬧翻了，質疑他們的二期到年底馬上要開工了，會不會受影響。"],["龔部長明鑫：台積電都說正常，包括中科的擴廠和嘉義CoWos也會持續進行。"],["張委員啓楷：計畫不變，時間會不會有影響？部長，我剛才跟你講的是非常理性、務實、科學的。"],["龔部長明鑫：嘉義的部分主要是因為工程上，不是政策上改變。"],["張委員啓楷：你一定要讓臺中、嘉義的台積電投資和工程要如期，我現在跟你講更重要的，明明這個錢就排擠，我可以算給你聽，1年投資300億元，美國如果每一年都拿走250億元，當然就影響臺灣投資，這是第一點。第二點，美國商務部長說投資金額要超過5,000億美元，要從封測到整個封裝都要完整，下面這句話最重要，就是要把整個產業鏈帶回美國才能達成，他說要讓臺灣參與，而且整個產業鏈都要執行，這跟前幾天鄭麗君講的臺灣模式不是一樣嗎？你嘴巴講絕對不同意五五分，結果你的臺灣模式擴大對美投資做的是什麼？政府和企業分工，政府還要提供金融信保的機制。"],["龔部長明鑫：我也有提供一些數據給你聽，如果到2028年，台積電在美國建的廠大概第3個廠可以開始量產，這3個廠每月量產大概5.3萬片，現在臺灣5奈米以下月產能就是25萬片，但是到2028年我們還會增建，所以不可能是一比一。"],["張委員啓楷：問題來了嘛！美國商務部長怎麼可以說要五五分？未來三年要五五分，更重要的是，我們對美談判的代表鄭麗君副院長提出臺灣模式，我們又要增加，用一個產業部落，把某些半導體的整個產業搬到美國去。"],["龔部長明鑫：副院長已經有說明不可能五五分。"],["張委員啓楷：這不是嘴巴講的跟實際做的不一樣嗎？你去對比鄭麗君講的臺灣模式，和美國的商務部長要達成的五五分，不能說很像，只能說一模一樣啊！你嘴巴講不同意，但是實際做出來的，晶片的產業就是外移到美國去。"],["龔部長明鑫：我剛剛提供給委員的是實際的數字，就是按照台積電實際上到2028年3個廠蓋完大概五萬多片月產能，我們現在已經25萬片。"],["張委員啓楷：現在美國商務部長跟你們講，他在電視專訪時講的，這個訊息已經由代表團傳達回來了，他要你投資這麼多錢，我剛才算過了，你的錢給美國一年250億元，你就排擠到臺灣的投資，這是第一點。第二點，他未來三年多要達到五五分，你現在要讓晶片的產業部落到美國去，那不是影響到臺灣？所以人家才會講護國神山矽盾變成半屏山了。"],["龔部長明鑫：實際上就是不可能，我剛剛講了，2028年五萬多片，我們現在已經25萬片，所以只有我們現在的五分之一而已。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是美國的商務部長亂講，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：這我沒辦法評論。"],["張委員啓楷：他在電視專訪中直接清楚講已經向代表團明確表達了，結果我們這邊還說沒有討論，你是說他胡說八道嗎？我們的賴清德總統昨天還特別說要協助美國成為AI的世界中心，要讓美國再次偉大，臺灣的總統最重要是臺灣偉大吧！美國再次偉大，然後把我們的晶片五五分嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：立足臺灣，布局全球，這本來就是政策的方向。臺灣半導體先做得非常好，美國才有辦法藉我們的半導體發展AI。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們不要只有喊口號，你從實際我剛跟你講的，不管是資金挹注美國一年250億元，不管是鄭麗君提出來的臺灣模式，就是我們晶片從上、中、下游的整個晶片聚落移轉到美國去嘛！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，那個1,650億……"],["張委員啓楷：這個裡面牽扯到有多少資金要出去、多少產業要出去、多少工作機會要出去，你們都有責任跟民眾講清楚耶！"],["主席：張委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你們到目前都沒講耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：1,650億是台積電的布局，1,650億是台積電……"],["主席：部長，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，不是只有台積電，是整個晶片的產業喔！"],["主席：張委員，你超過時間很多了！"],["張委員啓楷：我馬上就好，1分鐘，1分鐘好不好？"],["主席：好，快一點。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你是很有名的財經專家，不是只有台積電這個護國神山變半屏山，整個晶片產業，IC設計上有聯發科，對不對？還有瑞昱跟聯詠；封裝測試是日月光跟矽品、京元電子；設備跟材料商是台達電、群創、南亞科。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這些產業……"],["張委員啓楷：這是鄭麗君所謂的臺灣模式，要過去的有上、中、下游耶！部長，我問你……"],["龔部長明鑫：委員，我跟你說，這些廠商做全球……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在是說鄭麗君講的不算，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：這些廠商做全球布局，在那邊可以因此延伸力量、能賺錢，這個當然也是好事啊！"],["主席：張委員，再10秒鐘。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，臺灣有……"],["龔部長明鑫：在臺灣會持續擴廠、持續最先進的技術，都在臺灣啊！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，資金是有限的，拿去美國後當然臺灣會受影響啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：去的話……"],["張委員啓楷：你的人才會外流啊！你的工作機會也會過去啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：去那邊是借力使力，借他們的這些科技人才也好，或者是土地、水、電，就是借力使力嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，我就是問你嘛，部長，我們非常具體……"],["主席：張委員……"],["張委員啓楷：所以臺灣上、中、下游的晶片產業有多少的資金會出去？哪幾家會去？影響多少工作機會？"],["主席：部長，再用詳細的書面回答，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：時間有限，請直接回答我的問題。"],["主席：用書面回答。"],["張委員啓楷：主席站起來一段時間了，這樣好不好？我剛剛問的問題，我剛剛問的問題，第一個，不要只有嘴巴講，我現在跟你講的都非常實際，臺灣模式，鄭麗君清楚的講我們晶片的整個聚落是要過去的，你給我四個很具體的數字，多少資金要到美國去？第二個，哪幾家是會去的？第三個更重要，影響多少的工作機會？第四個，多少人才流出去？"],["主席：好了，張委員，瞭解了……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們沒有辦法幫企業宣布事情，我們知道、我們可以講的都是企業對外公開……"],["主席：部長，你再用書面回答，不要再答了，時間已經超過很多了！"],["張委員啓楷：部長、部長、部長！鄭麗君講的是說你們採取分工，政府……"],["主席：張委員，時間到了！"],["張委員啓楷：有產業過去，你們要開始去調查嘛，對不對？"],["吳委員沛憶：尊重一下主席，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，所以我剛剛講1分鐘嘛！"],["主席：張委員，好了啦！好了啦！瞭解了！瞭解了！"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我剛剛要了四個指標，這是鄭麗君講的嘛，你一個禮拜內給我，好不好？"],["主席：部長瞭解了啦。"],["張委員啓楷：有多少資金出去？你不是說產業出去，然後你們負責去審核嗎？"],["主席：好了啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們不能幫企業宣布它的規劃，除非它自己……"],["主席：書面回答啦，你不要再回答了，書面回答啦，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：把你們鄭麗君現在的規劃給我，好不好？OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：重點是不要護國神山變半屏山，讓我們的晶片產業有一半出去，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳永康委員，陳永康委員，陳永康委員不在。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}