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這個政務我們從來不曾思考過這些議題你這個書長老實說你跟不上這個時代啊跟不上這個國家所需要的這個能力啊書長你說說看嘛你講講看啦"},{"start":309.827,"end":319.392,"text":"我剛剛講的你不要再推給內政部災防法我今天講的是災害廢棄物管理計畫你們有沒有思考過啦"},{"start":321.874,"end":345.414,"text":"報告委員我們可以來檢討啦這確實整體性的沒有因為以往我們在處理的方面這個災防法不是只有內政部災防法我不是在說災防法而已所以廢棄物的處理以往在救災方面我們確實是有跨區的資源以往運作也算正常"},{"start":345.734,"end":360.052,"text":"你現在都停留在20世紀或者是停留在很早期的概念人家 我現在這樣講好了部長你來講好了啦我知道剛才有委員說600萬噸的淤泥加垃圾"},{"start":363.137,"end":389.849,"text":"到底是有廢棄物的量體有多大你們是怎麼評估 評估大概有多大你可不可以告訴我好不好 委員光是簡單的廢棄物的量體有多大你來回答我好 第一個是從無人機去拍這個煙色 煙蓋的範圍土砂的量有多少 垃圾的量有多少所以我們其實市區的我們大概有估算出例如說這次有十幾萬噸的垃圾加淤泥那至於農業部 農田"},{"start":391.43,"end":407.443,"text":"淤泥遇到農田的部分那是農業部在估計他們有報給我們一個數值那最後的處理主要是農田的部分是農業部為主那他有跟我們有一個合作的一個關係垃圾加淤泥十幾萬噸你們放在準備了六個戰智場對六個戰智場你們選址選戰智場的依據和怎麼標準你是怎麼選的第一個是你要不要回答你們選的"},{"start":422.318,"end":436.86,"text":"第一個是當然是遠離這個民眾第二個是那個交通第三個是他以後後續處理會比較方便第四個是他當地的一個"},{"start":438.162,"end":457.361,"text":"遠離民眾這關為你講出來真的有遠離民眾嗎第二個你們選址上其實考量的是足夠的空間容納足夠的這些淤泥和垃圾吧那我現在講的就是說大家都知道現場的空間"},{"start":458.542,"end":472.275,"text":"堆成一整排比人還要高距離不到200公尺距離這個有人住的活動的地方都是垃圾堆置堆成好幾座所以這種狀況你叫第一個條件叫遠離遠離人群"},{"start":476.271,"end":499.866,"text":"那不是啊因為我有在現場待了很多天那第一個是說那邊的淤積量 垃圾量實在太大了所以有的是在一個社區先堆置然後移到我們中型的然後再移到一個大型的那這個其實上我們有一個計畫未來要準備推動因為未來大的處理要後面30公尺的你們這個真的是土法煉鋼啦"},{"start":501.158,"end":522.603,"text":"我待會再告訴你講這種話毫無制度然後呢毫無標準土法煉鋼今天我光是問你說你這些淤泥去化要去到哪裡去化不要講垃圾廢棄物淤泥你的去化管道要去到哪裡"},{"start":524.445,"end":536.516,"text":"有好幾個用途第一個是例如說砂石廠第二個是像台泥你講這個這麼簡單砂石廠 哪裡有砂石廠要用淤泥啦"},{"start":537.148,"end":554.389,"text":"沒有委員他有分好幾個層面有淤泥還有土砂我再問你淤泥啊淤泥跟土砂現在沒有篩分都在一起你不要在這裡所以委員我們要篩分現在未來的工作就是要篩分全部加起來幾百萬噸要多少錢"},{"start":555.762,"end":583.51,"text":"非常多錢你估計要多少錢啊幾百萬噸喔在這裡簡單兩個字叫篩分我現在問題是要花多少錢好那你講說沒有並不是所有東西都混合到垃圾你混合到垃圾的量有多大大概幾十萬噸幾十萬噸篩分要多少錢而且淤泥曬太陽水分跑掉乾掉了然後垃圾就埋在裡面挖不出來變硬了"},{"start":585.35,"end":596.084,"text":"在這種狀況裡面成本是不是又更提高非常高非常高到底是多高大概要花到幾十億幾十億對我現在跟你講說你們在這裡還講台泥台泥第一時間他們就說他們可能沒有辦法"},{"start":603.354,"end":613.046,"text":"因為台裡的窯他是要燒廢棄物可以你的篩分有辦法成功篩分出泥巴跟廢棄物完全乾淨的分離嗎而且要洗選好嗎你沒有辦法你到他的窯裡面去燒他的油會壞掉"},{"start":620.694,"end":636.885,"text":"他有可能接受嗎 難怪人家據說他們不願意因為不相信你們有能力篩分的乾淨然後到他們的窯裡面可以燒而不會燒壞他的窯所以我講去化 你怎麼去化"},{"start":637.884,"end":658.244,"text":"然後篩分講得這麼容易幾十萬噸你就沒有辦法了所以在這種狀況裡面都講你們光是自己裸露堆積的垃圾量你們環境部主管的就有71.5萬噸全台灣掩埋廠剩餘容量只剩下兩成"},{"start":659.986,"end":674.752,"text":"都不要講說這個丹納斯颱風還有失眠風險很高的廢棄物的問題也還沒有完全解決所以這一系列下來災害廢棄物不管是丹納斯的或是這一次這個驗射壺帶來的這些都是非常"},{"start":680.814,"end":704.62,"text":"大的問題 所以我們對於現有的廢棄物處理設施對於災害廢棄物可以處理的能量 你估算怎麼估算你可能都沒有辦法想像耶 難以想像耶保證 不是青菜都要公共而已幾十億 你拿來了幾十億給你錢是不是要堆置 一直堆置 堆置很久很久"},{"start":706.317,"end":711.925,"text":"所以我現在要告訴你說準確的去估算廢棄物的處理量和內容是我們說的要訂定跨區域的災害廢棄物管理計畫的前提最重要的基礎"},{"start":721.994,"end":745.966,"text":"那災害廢棄物的估算也決定了災後復原工作成敗的關鍵的第一步你缺乏健全的估算的方法會引發連鎖性的應變失靈導致復原的騎乘延宕公共衛生的風險升高還有處理成本的失控"},{"start":747.025,"end":772.231,"text":"我現在跟你講的是全面性的思考不是在那裡土法煉鋼你的輸掉停留在20世紀土法煉鋼的時代早就過了我要跟你講日本的災害管理準則BP科查你也看到我們的界面跟我們的地理條件災害條件都很類似的日本他們從來沒有去考察過也沒有任何的思考過"},{"start":773.451,"end":782.309,"text":"日本怎麼做?這次接受業者去法國考察多元廢棄物他跟妳想到這個 沒有所以妳的書中很濃厚的"},{"start":784.082,"end":811.468,"text":"日本的災害管理準則明確的將初期應對制度化而且要將災害廢棄物處理量估計放在初期裡面列為災後必須立即採取的五項關鍵行動之一這個災害管理準則它確立了準確的估算和有效行動之間的直接關聯因此"},{"start":812.188,"end":837.927,"text":"他們未能進行估算本身就是不能夠就沒有辦法履行初期應對的核心職責所以第一個你要先估算精準啊估算精準啊如果沒有可信的數據支持你根本難以掌握廢棄物可能的總量或組成這些淤泥木材混凝土混合物垃圾"},{"start":839.619,"end":862.381,"text":"等等 這種都混合在一起第二個 在沒有辦法預支總量的狀況下根本不可能規劃 而且確保足夠的數量和面積去設置臨時堆置場你現在的臨時堆置場 照日本的標準來講都不及格因此臨時堆置場 第一個還是要考慮到環境和人的風險"},{"start":863.735,"end":890.735,"text":"第一個絕對不是前年去做台湯的土地放在農地裡面造成二次污染也不是說暫置在離人很近的生活圈有可能人家的要求你是要跟土壤隔絕的你如果沒有水泥地沒有辦法隔絕你要鋪防水布啊你有鋪嗎 有鋪防水布嗎你有建立這樣的準則讓第一線上的人去遵循嗎 有沒有"},{"start":892.435,"end":908.847,"text":"有沒有想過不能夠造成二次的污染暫時堆置場第一次的一次的佔置場有沒有防水防污染設施在那個地面上 有沒有你在農地上欸 農地欸有沒有 沒有啦有沒有 有沒有 你回答一下啊不然說另外的補充是你有要求嗎 有沒有"},{"start":921.71,"end":928.183,"text":"這個部分是在緊急狀況確實是沒有做人家日本也是緊急狀況日本都照步驟有規範"},{"start":930.544,"end":959.85,"text":"現在是什麼時代啊 你跟大土法煉鋼跟20世紀一模一樣我再講喔這個在沒有辦法預知的狀況你根本就沒有確保足夠的數量還免去臨時堆置而且會導致堆置廠迅速飽和或者是因為規劃不及而延遲開放第三個這些沒有經過分類的混合廢棄物它的處理難度和成本會遠高於分類後的廢棄物可回收物也受到污染"},{"start":960.49,"end":974.185,"text":"有害的物質 農藥化學品混入其中造成第二次公衛的風險在這些處理效率低落而且受污染的廢棄物流入台灣 你要叫台擬幫你燒或是台灣自己的焚化爐台東的或是宜蘭的或是掩埋廠系統"},{"start":983.475,"end":997.777,"text":"它會使現有就已經產生的處理的瓶頸或容量短缺問題更加惡化整個清潤和復原的過程它會被延宕然後造成二次污染我跟你講你都放在隆重隆低"},{"start":998.905,"end":1027.848,"text":"二次污染很嚴重所以我現在講說你們準確的估算才能制定災害廢棄物處理執行計畫去提供這個基礎而且定出務實的處理目標才能夠編列合理的預算你現在量不知道預算不知道你要說很貴可是你根本不知道有多少那你也無從去估計但是我們知道估算災害廢棄物的挑戰真的是很困難"},{"start":1028.909,"end":1046.485,"text":"但是他也不是無解啊跟台灣同樣面臨地震颱風威脅土石流威脅的日本他們已經發展出一套全面性的而且是有數據驅動而且具備調適性的框架出來了"},{"start":1047.486,"end":1066.635,"text":"他們除了311地震、阪神地震他們的地震、風災、土石流真的也非常多所以在這種狀況裡面日本的模式它的核心精神在於它的適應性它一次一次又一次又去調整它將估算工作分成四個階段從災前的規劃演進到災後的精準的執行"},{"start":1072.81,"end":1089.049,"text":"第一個階段 災前的規劃要運用預設的災害情境 看是土石流還是單純的地震進行模擬 推估可能的廢棄物量作為地方政府制定災害廢棄物的處理計畫的基礎這個就是前瞻性的風險管理"},{"start":1094.164,"end":1117.491,"text":"不同的災害導致的量體是不一樣問題要面對的也不一樣第二階段他要在災後兩個禮拜以內他的初期應對他的初步的災損報告要出來關於建築物毀損的動數快速產生第一板的估算值在就是所謂的這個到底這個有多少的量"},{"start":1119.153,"end":1132.05,"text":"然後這個估算目的在指導開設臨時堆置場和緊急應變行動他估算出來了作為臨時指導緊急應變然後他的這個臨時堆置都要根據這個量體"},{"start":1133.852,"end":1155.745,"text":"那第三階段兩個禮拜過後了其實你要執行計畫一個月內要精準了整合了臨時堆置場實際接收的廢棄物量更精準的將建物受損評估對估算值進行修正要制定更詳盡的災害廢棄物的處理執行計畫再更精準"},{"start":1156.755,"end":1176.136,"text":"人家都是有步驟的第四階段計劃修正就在處理的過程中根據實際的建物拆除的進度還有整個環境清理出來的廢棄物的處理數據持續的滾動修正總量然後去預估"},{"start":1177.057,"end":1195.993,"text":"日本的模式的強大之處是它背後是詳盡的基於實證數據的細數資料庫這種模式他們已經算出來了根據不同的災害類型你是地震的 你是海嘯的 你是水災的 土石流它在模擬的時候它已經設置了不同的參數的值"},{"start":1198.155,"end":1225.308,"text":"這些數據都是根據實際的過去的災害的例子分析和研究建立的比如說在它的技術手冊中都包含了各都道府縣按照它是不是木造的房子還是非木造的房子去劃分它的平均樓地板面積還有建築物的構造比還有這種精細化在地化的數據數量然後再搭配它是土石流海嘯還是純粹地震"},{"start":1228.547,"end":1248.762,"text":"這些數據然後他們有模擬推估所以人家是演化在災害的基礎上我們不斷的學習累積然後還要進步這個就是我們台灣目前富之缺儒的關鍵的部分而且從來沒有思考過而且你們的環關署就是這麼弱還停留在20世紀"},{"start":1250.697,"end":1278.243,"text":"部長你不覺得包委我三點回覆第一個是日本的防災我非常了解但是也跟委員坦承我沒有去了解日本的垃圾的防災的這個垃圾怎麼處理那我會來好好來了解日本怎麼去處理委員的意見我會好好去研讀那你可以再聽我講一下嗎日本的災害類型決定了廢棄物組成的首要因素所以他也災廢棄物的組成會直接決定了所需要的處理技術和物流規劃"},{"start":1280.1,"end":1282.501,"text":"不是每個都一樣 還有物流規劃還有處理技術海嘯它會連廢棄物 土壤 沉積物車輛 魚具還有家戶用品都混合在一起跟我們這次很像但海嘯更嚴重它是有鹽分污染的廢棄物物流"},{"start":1297.546,"end":1304.328,"text":"所以他需要大規模的篩分設施和特殊的處理程序相較之下地震當然是單純的啊但這種狀況裡面一套通用的災害廢棄物的應變計畫是遠遠不夠的"},{"start":1312.771,"end":1334.462,"text":"一個有效的計畫是要根據災害類型而去預測可能的廢棄物組成如果沒有辦法估算組成就意味著關鍵的初期的階段無法部署正確的處理設施設備會導致嚴重的延誤而會讓復原的期程更拖得更慢而公共衛生的風險環境的風險會更擴散"},{"start":1337.543,"end":1355.735,"text":"所以每一次的大規模的添災都在考驗台灣社會的韌性而在這裡災後復原的速度跟品質是要科學化的有效率的去處理巨量的災害廢棄物內花蓮這個案例告訴我們我們現行的"},{"start":1357.057,"end":1370.717,"text":"現在環境部環管署現行的處理體系在極端災害面臨這次的花蓮的這個案例的時候我們看到非常的脆弱準備不足而且相當的落伍"},{"start":1372.031,"end":1389.201,"text":"所以日本的經驗已經證明要在更前瞻的規劃 科學的估算它才是核心的管理框架是提升國家災後復原力的關鍵你要把日本這種模式應用到台灣來我們要在地化"},{"start":1389.941,"end":1406.953,"text":"建立屬於我們自己的參數資料庫和應變計畫是你們責無旁貸這次應該要從這裡看到你們從發生到現在都沒有這種思維完全都不知道直到立委質詢你們才說我們要來看了"},{"start":1407.774,"end":1419.888,"text":"我們在這裡就是說 你要科學化的盤點分類估算 用這個基礎你要去制定詳細的處理執行計畫才能夠讓災區早日復原 那你要講什麼"},{"start":1420.595,"end":1440.36,"text":"好包委員第一個防災日本的防災我很理解廢棄物的處理我會來好好理解日本怎麼去處理我並沒有看過所以委員的建議我會再跟你討教第二點是這次是全世界少有的這種嚴重的屠殺的掩埋跟過去我們看到的過去的案例是不一樣我們也第一次遇到那其實我們是"},{"start":1440.9,"end":1466.633,"text":"先把災區恢復再說這是講及後面的中長期我們的確有在規劃我們也提供了一個相關的數字但是我們是內部在精算那個數字我們的確有掌握的第三個其實還有一個問題我也沒有提到的其實中央跟地方這次主責的第一線是花蓮縣政府我們其實進去的時候也遇到很大的一個協調上的困難直到最近這一個多禮拜我們全面的協助之後才能夠得到一個緩和"},{"start":1467.253,"end":1489.894,"text":"未來這也是一個你講的很多我都可以同意但是我是要告訴你你的還管屬主責的人腦袋沒有任何的思維這是事實而你們跟日本這一套系統比較起來你就知道我們多麼的落後也是一個事實但我現在更正你地方政府在在處理應變上從"},{"start":1492.977,"end":1519.816,"text":"從剛開始的這個撤離到災後的整個所有的搶救或者是復原上面我也知道地方政府的問題但我希望我要告訴你也不是從災害廢棄物的我剛剛講的那個觀點來看這是一個網域的救災系統他不是只有地方的問題所以不要講說中央來幫忙而是要講中央來統籌"},{"start":1522.622,"end":1536.401,"text":"我相信這個問題災害廢棄物處理的問題也不是一個地方政府能夠擔得起來的我只是談災害廢棄物我沒有談其他的就災害廢棄物來講"},{"start":1538.303,"end":1552.41,"text":"我們要去統籌 因為它的確是跨域它是一個網域救災系統的跨域的問題它需要你來統籌 而你要統籌的能力必須你有一個完整的一個所謂的計畫那這一個災害廢棄物管理執行計畫"},{"start":1561.855,"end":1585.9,"text":"你們也應該要有思考 你才有辦法擬定你才有辦法跟地方跨政府 跨域去協調對不對 你需要啊你協調的能力當然是需要靠台寧要不要燒其他地方政府的焚化爐要不要燒都需要你出來協調但是你一個沒有篩分乾淨 誰要燒燒了爐子就壞掉了 怎麼辦"},{"start":1587.18,"end":1608.593,"text":"所以你這樣叫他擱置在這個台塘的土地上農地二次污染日本是不可能溫泉這樣啦你沒有水泥地去隔絕那一些淤泥垃圾跟土土壤直接接觸你至少要防水布你要不透水你通通都沒有耶你們的輸送26個這麼多回來台灣還要發國23發生還沒有回來25這麼多"},{"start":1614.52,"end":1641.58,"text":"你的署長 別再說他住在裡面都沒這麼舒服你一個署長沒辦法受這麼多你也不是這麼專業我認為責成你一個部長負責的確是不一定是恰當但是你的署長不專業 不認真沒有一個前瞻性的思考這不是今年今天發生這件事情才這樣子而是這麼多年了台灣的複合性災害也這麼多了"},{"start":1642.341,"end":1660.095,"text":"要怎麼處理 早就應該要累積從災害裡面 從傷痛裡面我們要累積 讓自己有足夠的能量去應變然後要更進步 而我們統統阻擇的人業務單位統統沒人在想這些 這就不對了當然立委剛才跟你們說你補充 你說要收購 你去補單位沒能力"},{"start":1665.539,"end":1668.061,"text":"還是沒領到多人我老是跟你說啦補充是要找一個有領的出來先這樣子好了好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}