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理解有沒有錯誤沒有錯誤好 那我想喔 那個像秘書長你也是算政務官嘛不過我這邊先說明就是秘書長你說我見過民進黨裡面 政務官裡面真的是非常有就是我覺得整個中立性以及專業度我覺得是非常欽佩的"},{"start":83.259,"end":109.255,"text":"民進黨裡面有一些政務官其實我就比較沒有那麼認同但是您是我非常認同的一位政務官我想請教一下既然是國家的政務官他也是領國家的薪水這是人民的納稅錢到底有沒有行政中立的義務我想這個問題我們已經討論過好幾次了我想還是請您再說一次他到底在行政上有沒有中立的義務"},{"start":111.157,"end":126.756,"text":"行政中立當然就是看政務官的性質他還是有多多少少一定會有行政中立上面的相關規範只是說政務官跟事務官他們在行政中立上面他們的程度不同以及他們的法律依據不同我想這個應該沒有論述錯誤吧"},{"start":129.859,"end":147.82,"text":"那在行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實當時也有提到說政務官的行政中立其實當然不是跟一般常任務官的行政中立用同一個法律來規範但是還是要另立專法對不對要不要另立專法這個當然見仁見智我們尊重立法院的"},{"start":148.76,"end":173.065,"text":"但是至少政務官還是有行政中立的義務存在現在的行政中立法也有這樣的行為那我想請問一下因為之前我們大家都知道有一個群組外洩出來就是裡面有81位民進黨的政務官以及立委以及一些黨工那裡面又有提到一些什麼就是"},{"start":174.185,"end":200.621,"text":"有政務官回應說有立委說要釋出殺傷力的訊息但是有政務官說收到而且要跟市方就是內政部長討論處理中那我想這個部分以您的想法政務官明明拿的是人民的薪水但卻在這邊幫忙做政治的攻防甚至打選戰那這個是不是就是一個行政不中立我想請教一下 理事長"},{"start":202.762,"end":223.718,"text":"這個因為我不在這個群組中所以我沒有辦法看到完整的他的對話所以沒有辦法做判斷好吧當然我先說明一下就是寫殺傷力的這個委員當然他後來有解釋殺傷力是什麼意思他說真相對造謠者有殺傷力就是我覺得大家都是"},{"start":225.1,"end":242.413,"text":"中文都是母語啦那大家用字遣詞的習慣其實也都一樣那這有沒有硬凹我想國人都會有一個公平那當然你說硬凹的這種東西我以前開庭看多了被告硬凹凹的比他更誇張的多的是但在這個地方把"},{"start":243.55,"end":257.103,"text":"這一段文字解釋成說真相對造謠者的殺傷力我想沒關係啦這個說的人自己喜歡聽就好了那我想大部分的人民其實不會買單啦好那我想喔"},{"start":259.482,"end":274.967,"text":"這個群組的這個問題其實顯現的一個狀況就是當政務官跟政黨綁在一起的時候其實政府就已經不是政府就變成黨的機器了嘛那我很多次我也不會言的跟大家報告說我以前是民進黨的信徒"},{"start":275.367,"end":300.388,"text":"因為我深愛民進黨的親連情 正愛相圖以民進黨以前對於國民黨的批判不應該黨國一體不應該手伸進媒體 學校 軍隊等等的公務體系但是今天他沒有做到他反而手伸得更進去甚至以前他最追求的言論自由現在變成是很不言論自由所以這個就是我覺得開始去反思說我以前支持的"},{"start":301.363,"end":320.359,"text":"的那一群人可能因為人員的更換招牌一樣但是內容已經不一樣所以我才會覺得這樣對嗎就是當你把黨務跟國家綁在一起就變成黨國一體的狀況這也不是一個民主國家的常態最近我們看到的就是說"},{"start":321.36,"end":338.441,"text":"人民繳的稅金我希望拿來救災而不是救選情也不是救執政的民調的滿意度所以政務官應該為國做事而不是為政黨出權公僕不應該變成是黨僕這是我一直以來我的想法"},{"start":340.017,"end":365.299,"text":"所以很多時候政務官的不中立會變成是人民對於政府不信任對政府信任度瓦解的開始所以我想我還是要提出提出這個我想請問因為您剛一直說你不了解你不在那個群組內不了解所以有一些問題要請問你那我想說你說不了解還是您認同嗎"},{"start":366.94,"end":371.304,"text":"政務官搭配立委以及黨工在群組裡面"},{"start":373.056,"end":396.759,"text":"發表這樣的言論 您認同嗎您自己是政務官 您的立場我覺得是這樣啦 這個事情都會反映到當一個災害發生的時候 大家都很關心那在第一時間 一定大家社會有各種說法還有一些訊息 那一定有一些不一定是刻意造謠 但可能是也許是不正確的理解在流傳 也有可能那作為民意代表 我相信每一位都會很心急"},{"start":397.259,"end":417.105,"text":"也是希望行政部門要趕快把事情說清楚能夠把這個狀況釐清所以我想這個大概可以這裡面看得出來大家在第一時間都很關心也希望政府能夠趕快有行動當然我也相信很多民進黨的立委以及政務官都是非常用心在為這個國家做事這個我也認同啦"},{"start":417.705,"end":437.978,"text":"但是這個群組裡面他有很多是也許是在討論一些救災等等的這個我沒有意見但是單就這個某個特定委員要求說趕快釋出拒殺傷例的這個訊息我是不認同這句話那我更不認同說掛著職稱譬如說總統府秘書長等等的職稱的這個賴的這個怎麼講"},{"start":444.904,"end":470.097,"text":"塗貼名稱然後用這個理由去加入到政治的攻擊這個我們是不認同我也不認為政治人物政務官該做這種事情那否則我就覺得那以後大家就黨國一體就大家亂搞民主國家政黨輪替是正常那是不是換一個政黨之後大家就來搞同一套我不認同這樣我還是覺得民主國家要有民主國家的樣子存在"},{"start":473.486,"end":495.644,"text":"更何況殺傷力這個東西這個也不是正常的一些政策或政策協調上面的用語我想我們在用政策協調用語不會用殺傷力這個啦否則你們考試院有可能說我們今年的執行率我們增加了20%的殺傷力我想不會用這樣的用語"},{"start":496.505,"end":509.635,"text":"所以自始至終我不認同 這個是那位委員他的論述方式我再請問一下 不好意思你們考試院曾經有提過一個版本"},{"start":518.991,"end":543.374,"text":"曾經有提過一個版本就是有關政務人員中立的這個版本那我想請教一下我這次看到的這個群組裡面的這些政務官他讓我的感覺是什麼我想先請您告訴我啦在這個災難的期間你不救人你反而去協調政黨的攻防那這樣子是不是違背政務官這個代表政府應該有的職責"},{"start":544.884,"end":561.752,"text":"是不是我看在這個災難發生的時候這個中央或者是地方很多人大家都是很努力的去要去處理這個問題民主黨 這個我不否認我也跟民主黨報告我不是說一定"},{"start":562.512,"end":588.809,"text":"民進黨就壞人 不是大部分的民進黨的立委我都非常的尊重大部分的民進黨的政務官我也很尊重他們他們很多時候也在為這個國家努力做事但是我意思是說有少部分或偶爾有幾件這樣子的事情發生我覺得國人不能接受我從來沒有否定掉這些委員們對於國家的貢獻我從來沒有否認像在座王一川委員他也對國家很多貢獻我也從來沒有否認所以"},{"start":591.483,"end":609.475,"text":"您不用跟我回答說救災期間大家很努力我覺得這個我不是聚焦在這邊我只是意見是說當救災期間政務官卻陪著立法委員在那邊搞這些殺傷力的訊息他就要找誰處理你覺得這樣適當嗎"},{"start":615.424,"end":637.522,"text":"我覺得還是要釐清他們到底在對話的內容到底是要講什麼我覺得你可能不方便講這個啦我也可以理解啦在現行我們的國家制度以及民進黨內對於思想控制的情況下我認為政務官不敢講真話這已經變成是一個國家常態而且是國家的悲哀大家不敢把真正的話說出來但事實上我們認為"},{"start":638.923,"end":664.202,"text":"政務官竟然已經當政務官了其實你某程度你就要跳脫政黨之間的對立而是要全力為國家人民我認為是這個樣子所以我還是回過頭去說啦好吧 那至少我的認定我認為在救災國家有難的期間政務官應該全力去救災而不是在群組裡面配合黨工或部分政治力比較強烈的"},{"start":665.043,"end":681.76,"text":"立委在那邊搞政治的鬥爭因為這些東西確實就會侵害到國家的利益毀損掉國家的名譽所以我剛提到的考試院當年的政務人員法第21條的立法理由其實政務官他應該"},{"start":682.941,"end":701.48,"text":"如果發生一些狀況其實他應該看整體的國家局勢他真的不戴懲戒就應該主動辭職以事負責所以這個才是政務官的風範也就是當年你們考試院對於政務官的要求這個立法是你們當年的立法但是我今天看到的是"},{"start":703.376,"end":727.843,"text":"執政黨執政九年多了 裡面非常多的政策荒腔走板但是我們幾乎沒有看到什麼政務官願意辭職以示負責所以你們當年對於國人對於國家政務官體系的期待其實在今天我們是沒看到所以這個草案還是草案你們貴院當年的期待其實是在今天的台灣是沒有看到的"},{"start":730.211,"end":756.925,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我一直說我們這次要著重政務人員的行政中立然後我要推出一個行為基準法就是這樣因為我們都不知道我們會在立法院多久您也不知道您會在政壇多久對不對但我們還是要給國家跟人民留下一些貢獻政務官的行政中立是非常的重要不是只有事務官需要行政中立因為政務官是事務官的長官"},{"start":758.581,"end":785.96,"text":"我今天看到的狀況是一個行政院院長帶頭違憲違法立法院三讀通過的法律可以不執行就一句說我申請四憲中所以我認為這個違憲所以我不執行全世界沒有人這樣做過往我國政府也沒有人這樣做過完全違反三權分立或五權分立國家的制度他都敢這樣講那你要繼承的公務員怎麼想因為政務官是他們的長官"},{"start":788.626,"end":807.676,"text":"所以我說我這次我一直提倡要推這個基準法其實我是希望政務官能夠回歸法治明確界限界限那個界限的存在中立跟不中立界限要把它存在讓他們在執行權力的時候不能任性然後責任要能夠被追究所以我這次我一直堅持要提這個"},{"start":809.137,"end":831.775,"text":"基準法出來 如果說貴院一直沒有辦法再提出版本那就由我們立法院來主動提因為我認為不管未來哪一個黨執政該黨的政務官就是要忠義 要為國而不是為黨這是行政院長的做法 我想任何一個法律人應該都很懂"},{"start":833.308,"end":855.919,"text":"有念法律或相關的其實你應該也很能夠理解哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法律行政院可以選擇不執行或者是說我釋憲中所以我不執行還可以講這種話那今天我如果對哪一個法律我不喜歡那我去申請釋憲啊那我是不是從申請釋憲那天開始我就說我可以不遵守這條法律"},{"start":856.789,"end":880.31,"text":"所以我開玩笑的對大家說我對稅增基增法申請釋憲從釋憲那天開始申請那天開始我就不繳稅因為我要遵守我認為這違憲所以我要遵守憲法所以我不用繳稅其實這是荒謬的言論那行政院院長他在未來也會為他這句話去附上他一輩子的責任因為這是極端的荒謬全世界也沒有人這樣幹"},{"start":881.971,"end":908.043,"text":"那不好意思我耽誤大家很多時間那最後我想花一點點時間那那個部長不好意思我想我們剛剛提到的是行政中立的問題那現在我再提一個體系上面的問題我想我們已經講了很多次了這幾年公務員的入企率越來越高但公務員入企率越來越高的原因是因為大家不想考考生越來越少"},{"start":909.659,"end":925.626,"text":"所以執政應該是要廣羅人才來為政府的服務嘛一流的人才才能為我們帶來一流的政府就現在大家不想來我們現在看到的體系變成什麼樣上面的大官在搞政治中階的"},{"start":926.886,"end":953.114,"text":"官員沒有士氣完全提不起勁然後底下的新進人員流失流光光沒有人要來我先舉新北檢的例子2025年今年新北檢9個辭職然後後來又包括一個調布辦事的檢察官也辭職10個辭職一個地檢署才幾個檢察官一次10個檢察官離開檢察官薪水是10幾20萬一個月"},{"start":954.955,"end":971.405,"text":"他都不幹了然後更不要講各級公務員一堆問題這次離開的有我帶過以前的學習司法官他們跟我講的是一連串體系出了大問題為什麼執政九年會把國家帶像今天這個樣子"},{"start":973.614,"end":992.187,"text":"我其實是很擔心的那中階的官員為什麼沒有士氣因為身欠無望啊上面一堆位子都由不專業的人來卡最上面的位子我想今天如果有公務員在聽我們今天他就能夠深切的體會一堆高階的官員現在都有不專業的人在那邊領軍由不專業的來領軍專業的中階公務員沒士氣上面的人違法"},{"start":999.52,"end":1007.729,"text":"像行政院長違法違憲三如通過法律不執行然後底下人只能陪著他這麼幹這樣子就沒有士氣了"},{"start":1008.661,"end":1035.312,"text":"對不對 解凍案已經準備好了長官叫我不可以送出去那請問一下中階的官員會有士氣嗎每個人都知道是為了罷免而不能送出解凍案但每個人都擔心預算的問題但長官不給我送這是當時一堆公務員跳出來爆料啊所以為什麼今天會搞成這樣為什麼執政之後把公務員搞得沒有尊嚴沒有保障退休金講好了後來也不給所以"},{"start":1037.659,"end":1040.456,"text":"我想我要麻煩各位"},{"start":1043.417,"end":1068.989,"text":"國家走到今天這樣尤其是數字是不會騙人數字是最科學的我們看到的是報考的人數越來越少一堆中階訓練很扎實的一個一個走掉我說向新北檢走掉那個大概都是十年左右的檢察官訓練剛好是體力跟經驗值剛好是最橫頻的那個時候就一個一個走光光這個是我對於國家的憂慮"},{"start":1070.789,"end":1089.338,"text":"還有各行各業各個公部門都有一樣的狀況發生那我想兩位雖然是民進黨的政務官但我覺得你們對國家一定也有熱忱你們在看到國家今天變成這樣我想兩位也會擔心所以我要提出來麻煩一下"},{"start":1093.618,"end":1102.365,"text":"我想幾個主張再跟兩位報告第一個我還是希望依法行政的公務員要被尊重"},{"start":1103.752,"end":1131.031,"text":"行政院不要再用預算裁量當藉口然後把這個真的你依法該給的待遇退休金依法該辦理就辦理不要什麼都政治算計這個麻煩當然我知道院長是取決於院長那院長現在竟然要跟法治跟憲法對著幹那我們也只能期待他有一天能夠迷途知返那第二個我們希望說考試院重新檢討"},{"start":1132.572,"end":1161.135,"text":"待遇結構還有職涯的激勵包括剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的那個那個平等 甲等乙等的問題然後我們要讓年輕人看到真的有升遷 轉任機制讓公職的人能夠回到有尊嚴的職業選擇因為我記得我剛出來當檢察官那個時代不管是待遇 不管是受人尊敬都非常的高現在我真的看不到那很多時候反而是我們政治人物把國家帶到今天這樣然後再來 我覺得我要跟兩位報告"},{"start":1162.301,"end":1190.375,"text":"因為考試院一直不推出來所以我們這邊會推動政務人員行為基準法我們把政治干預還有公務體系私信的這個根源我們要把它去除掉我們希望說不要讓政治力還有違法的行政這些干預到我們整個國家行政體系否則啊你再怎麼樣都救不了我們現在公務員很低的士氣那最後我還是謝謝兩位因為兩位真的都是我很敬佩的兩位政務官"},{"start":1191.115,"end":1202.32,"text":"那我們希望說我今天提這個東西兩位能夠協助我們我們一起把相關的制度把它改善然後給國家引入更好的公務人員好不好好 謝謝各位好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時29分）我們麻煩秘書長。"],["主席：有請秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：待會也要請教銓敘部長。"],["主席：也請施部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以稍微等一下。"],["主席：好。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長早安。秘書長，首先我先提一下，因為一般人民搞不清楚常任文官跟政務官有什麼不一樣，我還是要說明一下，政務官跟一般基層的公務員常任文官其實不同，像行政院底下、像內政部長或財政部副部長、政次、發言人、秘書長等等，這些不是靠國家考試進來的，而是由執政者去任命的，這個是政務官，但是政務官通常也是行政體系的領導階層。秘書長，我這樣的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有錯誤。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，像秘書長你也是算政務官嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不過我這邊先說明，秘書長你是我見過民進黨政務官裡面真的是非常有……就是整個中立性以及專業度我覺得非常欽佩的，當然民進黨裡面有一些政務官我就比較沒有那麼認同，但是您是我非常認同的一位政務官。","我想請教一下，既然是國家的政務官，他也是領國家的薪水，這是人民的納稅錢，到底有沒有行政中立的義務？這個問題已經討論過好幾次了，還是請您再說一次，他到底在行政上有沒有中立的義務？"],["劉秘書長建忻：行政中立當然是看政務官的性質，他還是多多少少一定會有行政中立上面相關的規範。"],["吳委員宗憲：只是說政務官跟事務官在行政中立上面，他們的程度不同……"],["劉秘書長建忻：會有不同。"],["吳委員宗憲：以及他們的法律依據不同，這個應該沒有論述錯誤吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：在行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實當時也有提到，政務官的行政中立當然不是跟一般常用文官的行政中立用同一個法律來規範，還是要另立專法，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：要不要另立專法當然見仁見智，我們尊重立法院最後的決定。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是至少政務官還是有行政中立的義務存在嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，現在的行政中立法也有這樣的效果。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的、好的。我想請問一下，因為之前大家都知道有一個群組外洩出來，那裡面有81位民進黨的政務官、立委以及一些黨工，裡面有立委說要釋出殺傷力的訊息，有政務官說收到而且跟世芳（就是內政部長）處理中。這個部分，以您的想法，政務官明明拿的是人民的薪水，但卻在這邊幫忙做政治的攻防，甚至打選戰，這個是不是就是行政不中立？我想請教一下秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為我不在這個群組中，沒有辦法看到完整的對話，所以沒有辦法做判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧。當然，我先說明一下，寫殺傷力的這個委員他後來有解釋殺傷力是什麼意思，他說真相對造謠者有殺傷力，我覺得大家中文都是母語啦！大家用字遣詞的習慣其實也都一樣，這有沒有硬拗？我想國人都會有一個公評，當然你說硬拗的這種東西，我以前開庭看多了，被告硬拗拗得比他更誇張的多的是，但在這個地方把這段文字解釋成真相對造謠者的殺傷力，沒關係，說的人自己喜歡聽就好了，我想大部分的人民其實不會買單。","這個群組的問題其實顯現的一個狀況是，當政務官跟政黨綁在一起的時候，其實政府就已經不是政府而是變成黨的機器了。我很多次也不諱言的跟大家報告，我以前是民進黨的信徒，因為我深愛民進黨的清廉行政、愛鄉土，以及民進黨以前對於國民黨的批判，不應該黨國一體，不應該手伸進媒體、學校、軍隊等等的公務體系，但是今天他沒有做到，他反而手伸得更進去，甚至以前他們最追求的言論自由，現在變成很不言論自由，所以這讓我開始去反思我以前支持的那一群人，可能因為人員的更換導致招牌一樣但是內容已經不一樣，所以我才會覺得這樣對嗎？當你把黨務跟國家綁在一起，就變成黨國一體的狀況，這也不是一個民主國家的常態。","最近看到，人民繳的稅金我希望拿來救災，而不是救選情，也不是救執政民調的滿意度，所以政務官應該為國做事而不是為政黨出拳，公僕不應該變成是黨僕，這是我一直以來的想法。很多時候政務官的不中立會變成人民對於政府不信任，對政府信任度瓦解的開始，所以我想我還是要提出來。","我想請問，您剛剛一直說你不了解，因為你不在那個群組內不了解，本來我有一些問題要請問你，既然你說不了解，還是您認同嗎？政務官搭配立委以及黨工在群組裡面發表這樣的言論，您認同嗎？以您自己是政務官，您的立場。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我覺得是這樣，這個事情都會反映到當一個災害發生的時候大家都很關心，在第一時間大家、社會一定有各種說法還有一些訊息，一定有一些不一定是刻意造謠，但也許是不正確的理解在流傳，這也有可能。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["劉秘書長建忻：作為民意代表，我相信每一位都會很心急，也希望行政部門要趕快把事情說清楚，能夠把這個狀況釐清，所以我想大概可以看得出來大家在第一時間都很關心，也希望政府能夠趕快有行動。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實我知道啦！當然我也相信很多民進黨的立委以及政務官都是非常用心在為國家做事，這個我也認同啦！這個群組裡面有很多也許在討論救災等等的，這個我沒有意見，但是單就這位某個特定委員要求趕快釋出具殺傷力的訊息，我是不認同這句話，我更不認同掛著職稱，譬如說總統府秘書長等等的職稱，LINE的怎麼講……圖貼名稱，用這個理由加入到政治的攻擊，這個我們是不認同，我也不認為政治人物、政務官該做這種事情，否則我覺得以後大家就黨國一體大家亂搞。民主國家政黨輪替是正常，是不是換一個政黨之後大家就來搞同一套？我不認同，我還是覺得民主國家要有民主國家的樣子存在，更何況「殺傷力」這個東西也不是正常的一些政策或政策協調上面的用語，我想政策協調用語不會用「殺傷力」，你們考試院有可能說今年的執行率增加了20%的殺傷力？我想不會用這樣的用語，所以自始至終我不認同，這個是那位委員的論述方式。","我再請問一下，考試院曾經有提過一個版本是有關政務人員中立的版本，我想請教，這次看到這個群組裡面的這些政務官，他讓我的感覺是什麼？我想先請您告訴我在災難的期間你不救人，你反而去協調政黨的攻防，這樣子是不是違背政務官代表政府應該有的職責，是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我看在災難發生的時候，中央或者是地方很多人都是很努力要去處理這個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長，這個我不否認，我也跟秘書長報告，我不是說民進黨一定就是壞人，不是！大部分民進黨的立委我都非常的尊重，大部分民進黨的政務官我也很尊重他們，他們很多時候也在為這個國家努力做事，但我的意思是有少部分或偶爾有幾件這樣子的事情發生，我覺得國人不能接受，我從來沒有否定掉這些委員們對於國家的貢獻，我從來沒有否認，像在座王義川委員他也對國家有很多貢獻，我也從來沒有否認，所以您不用跟我回答說救災期間大家很努力，我不是聚焦在這邊。"],["劉秘書長建忻：了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意見只是說當救災期間，政務官卻陪著立法委員在那邊搞這些怎麼樣有殺傷力的訊息，他說好、他就要找誰處理，你覺得這樣適當嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我覺得還是要釐清他們對話的內容到底在講什麼。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，算了，我覺得你可能不方便講這個，我也可以理解啦！在現行的國家制度以及民進黨內對於思想控制的情況下，我認為政務官不敢講真話已經變成是一個國家常態，而且是國家的悲哀，大家不敢把真正的話說出來，但事實上，我們認為政務官既然已經當政務官了，其實某種程度就要跳脫政黨之間的對立，而且要全力為國家、人民，我認為是這個樣子，所以我還是回過頭去說啦！好吧，至少我的認定，我認為在國家有難、救災的期間政務官應該全力去救災，而不是在群組裡面配合黨工或部分政治力比較強烈的立委在那邊搞政治的鬥爭，因為這些東西確實就會侵害到國家的利益、毀損掉國家的名譽。","所以我剛剛提到的，當年考試院政務人員法第二十一條的立法理由，政務官如果發生了一些狀況，其實他應該看整體的國家局勢，真的不待懲戒就應該主動辭職以示負責，這個才是政務官的風範，也就是當年你們考試院對於政務官的要求，這個立法是你們當年的立法，但是我今天看到的是，執政黨執政九年多了，裡面非常多的政策荒腔走板，但是我們幾乎沒有看到什麼政務官願意辭職以示負責，當年你們及國人對於國家政務官體系的期待，其實在今天我們是沒看到，所以這個草案還是草案，也就是貴院當年的期待其實在今天的臺灣是沒有看到，這就是為什麼我一直說我們這次要著重政務人員的行政中立，然後我要提出一個行為基準法，就是這樣，因為我們都不知道我們會在立法院多久，您也不知道您會在政壇多久，對不對？但我們還是要給國家跟人民留下一些貢獻，政務官的行政中立是非常的重要，不是只有事務官需要行政中立，因為政務官是事務官的長官。我今天看到的狀況是，一個行政院院長帶頭違憲、違法，立法院三讀通過的法律可以不執行，就一句我聲請釋憲中、我認為這個違憲，所以就不執行，全世界沒有人這樣做，過往我國政府也沒有人這樣做過，完全違反三權分立或五權分立的國家制度，他都敢這樣講了，你要基層的公務員怎麼想，因為政務官是他們的長官。所以我說我一直提倡要推這個基準法，其實我是希望政務官能夠回歸法制，明確界限的存在，中立跟不中立的界限要存在，讓他們在執行權力的時候不能任性，然後責任要能夠被追究，所以我這次一直堅持要提這個基準法出來，如果貴院一直沒有辦法再提出版本，那就由我們立法院來主動提，因為我認為不管未來哪一個黨執政，該黨的政務官就是要中立，要為國而不是為黨。","對於行政院長的作法，我想任何一個法律人應該都很懂，如果您有念法律或相關的，其實您應該也很能夠理解，哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法律，行政院可以選擇不執行，或者說在釋憲中所以就不執行，還可以講這種話？今天我如果對哪個法律不喜歡，我就去聲請釋憲，我是不是從聲請釋憲那天開始就可以不遵守這條法律？所以我開玩笑的對大家說，我對稅捐稽徵法聲請釋憲，從聲請釋憲那天開始我就不繳稅，因為我認為這個違憲，我要遵守憲法，所以我不用繳稅，其實這是荒謬的言論。行政院長在未來也會為他這句話去負上他一輩子的責任，因為這是極端的荒謬，全世界也沒有人這樣幹。","不好意思，我耽誤大家很多時間。最後我想花一點時間，部長，我們剛提到的是行政中立的問題，現在我再提一個體系上面的問題，我想我們已經講了很多次了，這幾年公務員的錄取率越來越高，但公務員錄取率越來越高的原因是因為大家不想考，考生越來越少啊，執政應該是要廣羅人才來為政府服務，一流的人才才能為我們帶來一流的政府，結果現在大家不想來，我們現在看到的體系變成什麼樣？上面的大官在搞政治，中階的官員沒有士氣，完全提不起勁，然後底下的新進人員流失、流光光，沒有人要來。我先舉新北檢的例子，今（2025）年新北檢9個辭職，後來包括一個調部辦事的檢察官也辭職，共10個辭職耶，一個地檢署才幾個檢察官，一次10個檢察官離開，檢察官的薪水是十幾二十萬一個月，他都不幹了，更不要講各級公務員一堆問題。這次離開的有我以前帶過的學習司法官，他們跟我講的是一連串體系出了大問題，為什麼執政9年會把國家帶向今天這個樣子？我其實是很擔心的。中階的官員為什麼沒有士氣？因為升遷無望啊！上面一堆位子都是由不專業的人來卡最上面的位子，我想如果有公務員在聽我們今天的發言，他就很能夠深切的體會，一堆高階的官員現在都由不專業的人在那邊領軍，由不專業的來領軍專業的，中階公務員沒士氣，上面的人違法，像行政院長違法、違憲，三讀通過法律不執行，然後底下的人只能陪著他這麼幹，這樣子就沒有士氣了，對不對？解凍案已經準備好了，長官叫我不可以送出去，請問一下，中階的官員會有士氣嗎？每個人都知道是為了罷免而不能送出解凍案，但每個人都擔心預算的問題，而長官不讓我送，這是當時一堆公務員跳出來爆料啊！所以為什麼今天會搞成這樣？為什麼執政之後把公務員搞得沒有尊嚴、沒有保障？退休金講好了後來也不給！","我要麻煩各位，因為國家走到今天這樣，尤其數字是不會騙人的，數字是最科學的，我們看到的是報考人數越來越少、越來越少，而中階訓練很紮實的一個一個走掉，像新北檢走掉的大概都是10年左右的檢察官訓練，剛好是體力跟經驗值最衡平的時候，結果一個一個走光光，這個是我對於國家的憂慮，還有各行各業、各個公部門都有一樣的狀況發生。","兩位雖然是民進黨的政務官，但我覺得你們對國家一定也有熱忱，你們看到國家今天變成這樣，我想兩位也會擔心，所以我要提出來的這個就麻煩一下，我有幾個主張再跟兩位報告。第一個，我還是希望依法行政的公務員要被尊重，行政院不要再用預算裁量當藉口，真的，依法該給的待遇、退休金，依法該辦理就辦理，不要什麼都政治算計。當然我知道這個是取決於院長，院長現在既然要跟法制、跟憲法對著幹，那我們也只能期待他有一天能夠迷途知返。第二個，我們希望考試院要重新檢討待遇結構及職涯激勵，包括剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的那個評等，甲等、乙等的問題，我們要讓年輕人看到真的有升遷與轉任機制，讓公職能夠回到有尊嚴的職業選擇。我記得我剛出來當檢察官的那個時代，不管是待遇，不管是受人尊敬，都非常的高，現在我真的看不到了，很多時候反而是我們政治人物把國家帶到今天這樣。再來，我覺得我要跟兩位報告，因為考試院一直不推出來，所以我們這邊會推動政務人員行為基準法，我們要把政治干預及公務體系失信的根源去除掉。我們希望不要讓政治力及違法行政干預到我們整個國家行政體系，否則你再怎麼樣都救不了我們現在公務員很低的士氣。","最後，我還是謝謝兩位，因為兩位真的都是我很敬佩的政務官，希望我今天提的這個東西，兩位能夠協助我們，我們一起把相關的制度予以改善，然後給國家引入更好的公務人員，好不好？謝謝各位。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員語重心長，也希望考試院能夠儘速提出政務人員法的相關對案，因為本席也已經在研擬政務人員法，我也會在近期提出，我想這個是大家都很關心的議題，也應該列入你們這個年度的立法計畫裡面。","接下來請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}