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主席 請請經濟部工部長跟農業部陳部長我們請工部長 陳部長 謝謝委員好 專委部長好我們臺灣是小小多山的國家 現在變成小小多光電板的國家了山也光電板 海也光電板 餘溫也光電板 赤鴻池也光電板現在連水庫都是光電板 剛剛主席"},{"start":55.31,"end":81.343,"text":"陳廷輝一直在問 烏山頭水庫的這個事情我要先問一個 光電開發處理原則郭部長 你是第一次到經濟委員會來備詢嗎第一次 沒有 以前在國發會的時候常常國發會辦來喔 用經濟部部長第一次了喔郭部長啊 郭志輝在你這個位置啊 被問了非常多次光電開發的這個弊案或者是爭議"},{"start":82.597,"end":101.637,"text":"那時候我們確定了一個原則就是要居民同意才可以放行 郭志輝清楚地講案場開發一定要跟民眾溝通取得同意以後經濟部才會考慮放行我今天要問郭規"},{"start":104.017,"end":131.412,"text":"貢匯水嗎 還是會有改變會倒退路嗎有確定這個原則嗎 一定要居民同意才會放行嗎程序上本來就要跟居民溝通然後地方政府同意以後我們才會審查所以說第一關就會碰到居民跟地方政府所以它變成先決條件所以具體的話 居民要溝通第二個沒有同意 不會放行嘛這個原則先定下來郭志威是這個原則 貢部長沒有倒退路也是這個原則 大家看一下"},{"start":132.657,"end":157.046,"text":"大地莊園 你看這多可憐這個是本席跟陳庭輝陳委好幾個委員都問過了原先圈企的地方是住戶有500多戶旁邊那個化變成紅色的全部包圍了這個整個兩個這個莊園這怎麼過日子呢所以後來那時候決定把它暫停下來現在今天我要提一個新的案子請部長注意一下"},{"start":160.083,"end":186.622,"text":"在北門 北門區 北門區有這麼多的住戶結果出現了三個嚴重的問題第一個 居民說說明會不通知相關的利害人這程序就有問題了嘛 對不對我定第二個 開發的面積還不斷增加壓縮了居民生活空間跟生活的品質第三個更嚴重喔因為利益非常龐大"},{"start":187.56,"end":215.533,"text":"有黑道都進來了所以部長這個案子有符合剛剛講的那個原則對不對說明會沒有通知利害人這是不是應該也要符合剛剛的先暫停是不是我要了解一下因為個案的話如果符合剛剛就要停下來對不對就是居民溝通是第一個階段嘛然後地方政府同意嘛那我們再來審查他連第一階段都出問題啦說明會連當事人利害關係人都沒有去啊"},{"start":217.211,"end":230.347,"text":"這個居民清清楚楚講程序有問題啊 符合綱第一個嘛所以應該暫停 你先去了解好不好如果符合這個北門區這個就要暫停下來 第二個我們來談光電板廢棄損害的這個問題"},{"start":233.546,"end":260.935,"text":"7月7號但那是風災之後全台灣33個暗藏13萬5000片的光電板損害了有很多啊放在台塘土地上面那時候崔少哲來我這邊檢舉 你看污染了土地上面的是要環部蓋起來下面連蓋都沒有我今天沒有要問進度下面那個是舊的啦對 我今天要問你目前處理現在已經處理完了"},{"start":261.792,"end":277.805,"text":"清走了嗎清走了嗎還是暫時在那裡 清走了確定喔 我等一下就要去看喔因為你當初 你本來要放多久 三個月是不是本來跟他"},{"start":279.59,"end":300.609,"text":"應該21號之前好沒關係我等一下會去看一下進度你確定有清楚沒有的話我們就進一步再去推這個好不好好那因為你們很清楚的不管是經濟部跟環境部都說已經清理完畢了嘛我要一份資料就這13萬片你們後來整個管理的跟清除的情況好不好我為什麼這樣問來我給你看一個吹哨者這個畫面"},{"start":304.228,"end":325.571,"text":"這個是一個很大的光電的暗藏7月22號拍下來的9月22號9月22號發生風災已經兩個月過了兩個半月了也就是你們所謂的清晚了這是吹哨者來提供的我現在要拿你給我的東西我要對照"},{"start":326.684,"end":350.319,"text":"我現在很清楚的表達吹哨者拍下來到9月22號上面的這個很大的一個光電案上面的蠢害的沒有處理完下面的都堆成這樣你看左邊這個也是右邊也是我要把它堆你把那個東西給我來追清楚好接下來我們來談陳廷輝剛才提的水庫的烏山頭水庫的這個設置的這個問題我想要很明確的問農業部部長"},{"start":355.404,"end":383.588,"text":"你剛講說你們有做了檢測對不對保定 沈部長你們每個月或者你說這個檢測裡面我要問一個最重要的有做塑化劑跟塑膠微粒的這個測驗嗎有做塑化劑的我請我們同仁回答一下好不好因為這個細節的部分報告委員我們塑化劑的檢測我們是持續有在做"},{"start":385.046,"end":410.753,"text":"我先給你看為什麼這麼重要這個是7月份啊公共電視的很重要的一個報導他說塑化劑啊特別是那個塑化微粒 塑化微粒可能就沒有檢測了吧塑化微粒無所不在他跟失智症啊還有心血管疾病的這個病患業者體內曝露的濃度比較高所以這個塑膠微粒是有潛在的健康風險的"},{"start":412.577,"end":416.855,"text":"所以請農業部不是只有做塑化劑好不好做一下塑膠微粒的這個檢測"},{"start":418.861,"end":441.402,"text":"你在水園地 維力並沒有說話劑 維力的部分因為這個部分我回去再跟我們同仁檢討一下看怎麼樣的方式去處理 因為維力的部分不只是所有可能塑膠製品有可能最後會有一些維力的產生但是他沒有辦法有做相關的這些指標性的連結這個我回去我再跟同仁討論一下我們烏山頭11.5公頃的光電板"},{"start":444.807,"end":466.041,"text":"它下面一定是一個浮距跟浮台上面才有光電板嘛對不對浸在水裡這個塑膠微粒的產生一定是必然的然後我給你看的是公式喔應該有公信力吧對不對請了專家學者他跟失智症跟心臟病這個血管暴露這整個濃度是有關係的所以要檢測清楚好不好現在就開始納入檢測"},{"start":466.781,"end":477.787,"text":"不過我想還要跟委員說明清楚因為我們是針對浚露的灌溉的系統我們去做相關的這些水質會不會對作物所影響那相關您剛才講的這個等一下"},{"start":482.452,"end":505.783,"text":"都沒有吃嗎沒有 我說我農業部負責的我農業部負責的部分是這個部分我們進水的話都會 原水就會檢測那趕快做塑化劑 特別是塑膠微粒的這個檢測從現在就要開始做喔因為它對疾病是有影響的第二個 要另外再做一個演練然後給大家看一下這個新聞這是日本三倉水庫定名的"},{"start":507.267,"end":523.724,"text":"太陽能光電結果在2019年發生了火災因為有風災進來整個那個光電板一列為三整個那個架台整個都突起亂堆了冒出了這個火花那時候他們的消防車還沒辦法救"},{"start":526.707,"end":541.653,"text":"所以你現在烏山頭那邊你要去做一個演練跟測試跟這次那個N45一樣不要說又管不到囉好不好這趕快做好不好時間到了所以我非常明確的我現在要幾個東西都非常明確都非常明確"},{"start":542.844,"end":560.538,"text":"我剛剛講的資料請在三天內都送到我這邊來好不好特別是剛剛講的那個非常重要塑膠微粒的這個檢測要開始做然後整個那個消防演練都要做另外是剛剛陳廷輝講的也很重要我跟大家講像我們嘉義現在很多那個很多嘉義市的市民就擔心我們藍毯上面會不會出現光電板"},{"start":565.064,"end":589.294,"text":"因為你烏山頭蓋了嘛 你現在二期嘛 藍潭大家也在擔心嘛所以對於任何任何水庫要蓋光電盤都要非常小心 好不好 民眾都已經在抗議了好不好 不要隨便清洗嘉義的藍潭蓋光電板 一樣的包括烏山頭還有二期跟三期喔 還有其他的這個水庫不要輕易的清洗這個水庫蓋光電板 而且剛剛講的簡直要趕快做 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時53分）謝謝主席，請經濟部龔部長跟農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長、陳部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["龔部長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：兩位部長好。我們臺灣是小小多山的國家，現在變成小小多光電板的國家了。山也光電板、海也光電板、魚塭也光電板、滯洪池也光電板，現在連水庫都是光電板，剛剛主席陳亭妃一直在問烏山頭水庫的這個事情。","我要先問一個光電開發處理的原則，龔部長，你是第一次到經濟委員會備詢嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，以前在國發會的時候常來。"],["張委員啓楷：在國發會時曾來過。用經濟部部長的身分是第一次。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：郭智輝部長在你這個位置被問了非常多次光電開發的弊案或爭議，那時候我們確定了一個原則，就是要居民同意才可以放行。郭智輝清楚地講，案場開發一定要跟民眾溝通，取得同意以後，經濟部才會考慮放行。我今天要問，郭規龔會隨嗎？還是會有改變，會「倒退嚕」嗎？有確定這個原則嗎？一定要居民同意才會放行嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：程序上本來就要跟居民溝通，地方政府同意以後我們才會審查。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。"],["龔部長明鑫：第一關就會碰到居民跟地方政府，所以它就變成先決條件。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以具體化而言，跟居民要溝通；第二個，沒有同意不會放行嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對……"],["張委員啓楷：好，這個原則先定下來，郭智輝是這個原則，龔部長沒「倒退嚕」，也是這個原則。","大家看一下，大地莊園，你看這多可憐，這個本席跟陳亭妃委員、好幾個委員都問過了，圓圈圈起來的地方是住戶、有五百多戶，旁邊那些變成紅色的，全部包圍了整個的這兩個莊園，怎麼過日子？所以那時候決定把它暫停下來。","今天我要提一個新的案子，請部長注意一下，在北門區有這麼多住戶，結果出現了三個嚴重的問題，第一個是居民說，說明會不通知利害關係人，這個程序就有問題了，對不對？部長。第二個，開發面積還不斷增加，壓縮居民生活空間及生活品質。第三個更嚴重，因為利益非常龐大，有黑道都進來了。所以部長，這個案子有符合剛剛講的那個原則，對不對？說明會沒有通知利害關係人，這是不是應該也要符合剛剛講的，先暫停？是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：我要了解一下，因為個案的話，這個要……"],["張委員啓楷：好，如果符合剛剛講的就要停下來，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是居民溝通是第一個階段，然後地方政府同意，那我們再來審查。"],["張委員啓楷：它連第一階段都出問題啦！說明會連當事人、利害關係人都沒有去，這個是居民清清楚楚講的，程序有問題啊！符合剛剛講的第一個嘛！所以應該要暫停，你先去了解，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我先了解。"],["張委員啓楷：如果符合，北門區這個就要暫停下來。","第二個，我們來談光電板廢棄、損害的這個問題。7月7號丹娜絲風災之後，全臺灣33個案場、13萬5,000片光電板損害了，有很多放在台糖土地上面，那時候吹哨者來我這邊檢舉。你看，污染了土地，上面的圖中那個是用帆布蓋起來，下面的則是連蓋一下都沒有。我今天沒有要問進度……"],["龔部長明鑫：下面那個是舊的，剛發生的時候。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我現在問你，目前處理……"],["龔部長明鑫：現在已經處理完了。"],["張委員啓楷：清走了嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：清走了。"],["張委員啓楷：清走了嗎？還是暫置在那裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：清走了。"],["張委員啓楷：確定喔？我等一下就要去看喔！因為當初你本來要放多久，3個月，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：應該21號之前，本來是想……"],["張委員啓楷：好，沒關係，我等一下會去看一下進度，你要確定有清走；沒有的話，我們再進一步去追這個，好不好？好，因為你們很清楚，不管是經濟部還是環境部都說已經清理完畢了，我要一份資料，就這13萬片你們後來整個管理跟清除的情況，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：我為什麼這樣問？我給你看一個畫面，這是一個很大的光電案場，7月22號拍下來的，9月22號發生風災後，已經過了兩個半月，也就是你們所謂的「清完了」，這是吹哨者提供的。我現在要拿你給我的東西來對照，我現在很清楚地表達，吹哨者拍下來的，到9月22號，這是很大的一個光電案場，上面的是有損害的沒有處理完，下面的則是都堆這樣，你看左邊這個也是、右邊也是。你把這個東西給我，我來追清楚。","接下來，我們來談陳亭妃剛才提的烏山頭水庫設置的這個問題。我要很明確地問農業部部長，你剛剛講你們有做了檢測，對不對？陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：你們每個月或者……這個檢測裡面我要問一個最重要的，有做塑化劑跟塑膠微粒的這個測驗嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有做塑化劑的，我請我們同仁回答一下，好嗎？因為這是細節的部分。"],["陳副署長衍源：報告委員，塑化劑的檢測我們是持續有在做。"],["張委員啓楷：我先給你看為什麼這麼重要，這個是7月份公共電視很重要的一個報導，它說塑化劑，特別是塑化微粒，塑化微粒可能就沒有檢測了吧？塑化微粒無所不在，失智症還有心血管疾病患者體內的暴露濃度比較高，所以塑膠微粒有潛在的健康風險。因此請農業部不是只有做塑化劑檢測，好不好？追一下塑膠微粒的檢測……"],["陳部長駿季：並沒有塑化劑，那微粒的部分，我回去再跟我們同仁檢討一下，看是用怎麼樣的方式去處理，因為微粒的部分不只是……所有塑膠製品有可能最後都會有一些微粒的產生，但是它沒有辦法做相關的這些指標性的聯結，這個回去我再跟同仁討論一下。"],["張委員啓楷：烏山頭11.5公頃，這些光電板，它下面一定是一個浮具跟浮臺，上面才有光電板，對不對？浸在水裡，塑膠微粒的產生是必然的。我給你看的是公視，應該有公信力，對不對？請了專家學者來談，它跟失智症與心血管疾病患者體內的暴露濃度是有關係的。所以要檢測清楚，好不好？現在就開始納入檢測。"],["陳部長駿季：不過我還是要跟委員說明清楚，因為我們是針對圳路灌溉系統去做相關的檢測，就是這些水質會不會對作物有影響，您剛才講的這個……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，烏山頭都沒有吃嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我說農業部負責的是這個部分。"],["張委員啓楷：……是經濟部要做的，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們進水的話，原水就會檢測。"],["張委員啓楷：那趕快做塑化劑的部分，特別是塑膠微粒的檢測，從現在就要開始做喔，因為它對疾病是有影響的。","第二是要另外做一個演練。我給大家看一則新聞，畫面中呈現的是日本山倉水庫上面的太陽能光電設施，2019年那裡在颱風侵襲中發生火災，光電板一裂為三，整個架台凸起亂堆，冒出火花，當時消防車還沒有辦法救喔！所以你們現在要在烏山頭水庫那邊做一個演練和測試，和這次的堰塞湖一樣，不要說又管不到了喔！好不好？這個要趕快做，好不好？","時間到了。我現在要求的幾樣東西都非常明確，我剛剛講的資料請在三天內都送到我這邊來，特別是剛剛講的那個非常重要，塑膠微粒的檢測要開始做，然後整個消防演練也都要做。另外，剛剛陳亭妃講的也很重要，我必須跟大家講，我們嘉義市很多市民現在都非常擔心蘭潭上面會不會出現光電板。"],["龔部長明鑫：蘭潭沒有，不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：因為烏山頭水庫蓋了，現在是二期，所以蘭潭大家也在擔心。對於任何水庫要蓋光電板都要非常小心，好不好？民眾都已經在抗議了，好不好？不要隨便輕啟在嘉義蘭潭蓋光電板，同樣的，包括烏山頭水庫還有二期和三期，還有其他水庫，都不要輕易啟動在水庫蓋光電板，而且剛剛講的檢測要趕快做。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員。","有關剛剛說的檢測，從農業灌溉到飲水的部分，都要特別獨立出來，把所有資料公開，針對這次大家對烏山頭水庫的疑慮，我覺得要有更透明的資料才能讓人民更安心。","現在請鄭正鈐委員質詢。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","盧縣一","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張嘉郡","蘇清泉","陳超明","沈伯洋","高金素梅"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長、經濟部部長、原住民族委員會首長、國家通訊傳播委員會首長、行政院公共工\n程委員會首長、行政院主計總處首長、內政部首長、教育部首長、交通部首長、環境部首長、文\n化部首長、勞動部首長及衛生福利部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建情形」進行報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}