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我一起叫上來啊謝謝委員關心我想就整個堰塞湖的監測在對於監測到的所有資訊該要公開的其實都在網站上不是啊 你就回答我的問題就好啦那我想沒有人希望這件事情發生當然所有的資訊的溝通都是希望能夠避免人員傷亡不敢回答 部長"},{"start":127.602,"end":153.392,"text":"報告委員我們都了解人定無法勝天那在農業部他有持續監測但是最重要的兩個不可測的因素就是第一個艷澀湖在最後華家沙颱風的時候呢帶來大量的豪大雨當時華家沙對於不是啦部長我只你們只要回答我的問題其實是不是可避免你這個天然災害無法避免"},{"start":154.472,"end":183.645,"text":"是 所以我說人性無法勝天對 但造成這麼大的這麼多人的罹難或什麼的是不是可以避免的我們盡量要能夠避免但是它事實上造成這樣子的傷痛我們也是心情非常的沉重所以我們還是盡量朝著說未來怎麼樣更安全的來防護包括縣政府造成的災害會比較好我必須這樣說今天心情大家問這個問題都很沉重"},{"start":184.81,"end":203.413,"text":"在那邊有一個大馬村的村長整村的人人家是不是都撤離是 王子安王村長對這是不是可避免是的是不是對對嘛我覺得啦我們這一次要記起這個教訓"},{"start":206.206,"end":229.962,"text":"大家都知道撤離當然是地方政府的權限但中央跟地方要一起配合才能完成地方政府也沒有辦法知道燕塞湖他的監測狀況他也沒辦法他是要中央給他第一手的訊息他才能夠去處理那我覺得中央跟地方就是要一起配合但這一次我真的覺得這個撤離的動作如果精準確實"},{"start":236.692,"end":243.798,"text":"絕對不會發生這麼多人的罹難你的財產損失可能沒有辦法因為這是天災但財產損失的政府還可以補償但人命沒了就沒了對不對部長是對嘛所以我一直覺得我們這個部長還有經濟部農業部都在我們每年是不是都有辦防汛演習"},{"start":267.526,"end":268.947,"text":"是不是經濟部跟部長報告確實針對相關災害是有防眩演習每年都該辦吧看災害別我們有颱風水災又各主管機關去做相關的你只有回答我是不是每年都要辦是啊對啊這樣就好啦"},{"start":291.374,"end":317.161,"text":"對不對可不可以以後每年在辦防汛演習的時候把這一種測離因為水災我們不只是九煙塞湖土石流地區等等的這些都是會造成人命的傷亡我們以後可不可以把防汛演習把這個測離列為演習的標準項目之一可不可以"},{"start":318.94,"end":322.782,"text":"以水災為例我們每次都會把這個測離當作一個重點不是啦我現在問你的是我們把這個警戒區裡面的測離這個要把它列入標準的測離我們要演練的程序之一而且照測什麼什麼的要從頭到尾精準去做以後的防汛演習可不可以做到這樣"},{"start":347.869,"end":359.829,"text":"在水災的部分我們會把這個撤離當作一個重點你在放錄音帶喔還是你要回去請示部長才可以回答"},{"start":361.411,"end":367.352,"text":"報告委員經濟部就是水災的主責機關對啊所以我問你現在未來的防汛演習可不可以把這個撤離這個是當成標準最重要的演練之一嘛你就回答是就好了你剛剛問那麼多這是人命的事耶我覺得以前就是沒有這樣子嘛沒有嚴格的要求嘛所以你變成地方的造冊根本不確實嘛"},{"start":393.39,"end":401.52,"text":"如果每個都像大馬村的村長這樣子今天我看傷亡的人數會大幅降低我們就有財產的損失"},{"start":403.629,"end":430.012,"text":"我們是人命重要比財產更重要所以我今天說要求你們這樣你剛說可以嘛可以以後我們就照這樣來做嘛那如果地方政府都能夠在平時把造冊實際居住的人有多少人都造冊精準然後我們演練配合內政部配合所有部會演練每次的撤離就是照"},{"start":431.244,"end":440.734,"text":"這樣子精準的演練我相信未來不會再發生這樣的事不然地方的造冊你中央也沒有辦法去檢驗它到底造冊準不準啊部長"},{"start":442.864,"end":468.825,"text":"可以 你們可以百分之百檢驗到他們造冊準不準嗎不容易因為剛剛跟那個委員了解的一樣譬如說急在人不在或者是臨時返鄉的不特定人口所以我們通常都是在這個汛期之前或颱風之前要求地方的民政單位要能夠確實掌握住在縣地的人到底有多少人這樣子在做疏散撤離的時候呢才能夠精準把握那但是這通常都是要村裡幹事"},{"start":469.986,"end":488.972,"text":"或者是地方的這個消防或警察或者是社會處的同仁才會知道說這邊到底有多少人我知道啦這個都是地方造冊啦我當過地方的民政局長我非常清楚啦如果認真做的就會做到百分之九十九啦我們也不敢說百分之百啦因為有時候可能這個"},{"start":490.191,"end":512.865,"text":"去那邊工作的人他昨天來你多一個人你也不知道但我們至少能夠做到99%但你中央可能沒有辦法拿到確實的數據啊對不對所以你地方如果沒有嚴格去做到我認為啊以後還是同樣的情況會發生所以我才會說你今天造成這樣子我認為地方的造冊"},{"start":516.724,"end":540.356,"text":"真的是出了很大的問題不然也不會說災區的人連便當都沒有拿到如果你照冊精準怎麼可能連便當都沒拿到這是新聞播的所以我在這邊請所有的部會我們未來防汛演習把這一種土石流或這一種類似這種比較有可能發生要撤離的"},{"start":542.621,"end":552.81,"text":"變成標準的程序 標準的作業啦這樣子每年來做啦 每年檢驗啦才不會再有這種情況發生啦我不知道可不可以剛剛經濟部說可以了 那其他部會可不可以"},{"start":559.878,"end":578.588,"text":"也是要照這樣子來做 因為其實有這樣的經驗好 謝謝 那內政部我們應該也可以吧對 我們按照那個災救法一定會按照這樣的方式要求地方政府一定要能夠確實造冊配合而且要實時更新因為其他的縣市政府其實有人做得到 譬如說高雄市政府"},{"start":579.148,"end":598.648,"text":"他們在颱風有一級警戒的時候知道山上的狀況其實馬上就做預防性的撤離我想預防性的撤離最近這幾年大家都常聽到就是說我們認為可能天災造成的危害比較大那預防性撤離就有必要而不是等到說真正這個颱風警報到了時候才做撤離這會有撤離上面的困擾"},{"start":599.773,"end":616.704,"text":"對啦我覺得還是一句話啦平時有做啦然後你們各部會如果地方在防汛演習他沒有照規定來沒有嚴格的做你們的補助很多的東西在你們手上你就不配合那我們就是要檢討每年防汛演習的最後的檢討不是檢討假的我覺得要這樣子才可以救很多人謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時35分）請內政部長、農業部長、經濟部水利署副署長。"],["主席：請以上委員提到的三個單位列席。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長好。我應該不用問到10分鐘，因為那麼多委員，讓你們罰站太久了，我們就簡短、就挑重點。部長，我想請問一下，這個堰塞湖是不是從一開始包含農業部等各部會就有監控到了，也都有隨時掌握第一時間的情況？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請農業部來回應？"],["張委員宏陸：對，所以我一起叫你們上來。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，7月26日在空勘確認有堰塞湖之後，其實就有把所有的部會，特別是在下游整治相關的，包括花蓮縣政府都納進來了。"],["張委員宏陸：其實今天在問這個是滿沉重的，我個人一直認為這些罹難的或什麼的，其實是可避免的問題，因可避免而沒有避免才造成今天這樣的憾事，我不知道你們各位的看法如何？誰回答都可以，我都一起叫上來。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，就整個堰塞湖的監測，對於監測到的所有資訊，該要公開的其實都在網站上公開了，該要通知都要通知……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你就回答我的問題就好了。"],["杜次長文珍：沒有人希望這件事情發生，當然所有資訊的溝通都是希望能夠避免人員傷亡。"],["張委員宏陸：不敢回答。請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都了解人定無法勝天，農業部有持續監測，但是最重要的兩個不可測的因素就是，第一個，堰塞湖在最後樺加沙颱風的時候，帶來大量的豪大雨，當時樺加沙對於……"],["張委員宏陸：不是部長，你們只要回答我的問題，其實是不是可避免的？這個天然災害無法避免……"],["劉部長世芳：對，所以我說人定無法勝天。"],["張委員宏陸：對，但造成這麼大的災害、這麼多人罹難或什麼的，是不是可以避免的？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量要能夠避免，造成這樣子的傷痛，我們心情也是非常的沉重，所以我們還是儘量朝著未來該怎麼樣更安全的來防護，包括堰塞湖造成的災害會比較好。"],["張委員宏陸：我必須這樣說，今天問這個問題，大家心情都很沉重，在那邊有一個大馬村的村長，整村的人是不是都撤離了？"],["劉部長世芳：是，王梓安王村長。"],["張委員宏陸：對，這是不是可避免的？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！我覺得我們這一次要記取這個教訓，大家都知道撤離是地方政府的權限，但中央跟地方要一起配合才能完成，地方政府也沒有辦法知道堰塞湖的監測狀況，他也沒辦法，是要中央給他第一手的訊息，他才能夠去處理。我覺得中央跟地方就是要一起配合，但這一次我真的覺得這個撤離的動作如果精準、確實，絕對不會發生這麼多人罹難，財產損失可能沒有辦法，因為這是天災，財產損失了，政府還可以補償，但人命沒了就沒了，部長，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！部長，還有經濟部、農業部都在，我們每年是不是都有辦防汛演習？經濟部，是不是？"],["黃副署長宏莆：確實針對相關災害是有防汛演習。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，每年都該辦吧？"],["黃副署長宏莆：看災害別，我們有颱風、水災，由各主管機關去做相關的演習。"],["張委員宏陸：你只要回答我是不是每年都要辦？"],["黃副署長宏莆：是啊。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，這樣就好了，可不可以以後每年在辦防汛演習的時候，把這一種因為水災的撤離，我們不是只有堰塞湖，包括土石流地區等等的，這些都是會造成人命的傷亡，我們以後可不可以把這個撤離列為防汛演習的標準項目之一？"],["黃副署長宏莆：以水災為例，我們每次都會把這個撤離當作一個重點。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦！我現在問你的是，我們要把警戒區裡面的撤離列入我們要演練的標準撤離程序之一，而且造冊等等的要從頭到尾精準去做，以後的防汛演習可不可以做到這樣？"],["黃副署長宏莆：在水災的部分，我們會把這個撤離當作一個重點。"],["張委員宏陸：你在放錄音帶喔？還是你要回去請示部長才可以回答？"],["黃副署長宏莆：報告委員，經濟部就是水災的主責機關。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以我問你，未來的防汛演習可不可以把這個撤離當成標準、最重要的演練之一？"],["黃副署長宏莆：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答是就好了啊！你剛剛問那麼多，這是人命的事欸！我覺得以前就是沒有嚴格的要求，所以變成地方的造冊根本不確實，如果每個都像大馬村村長這樣子，今天傷亡的人數會大幅降低，我們只有財產的損失，人命重要，比財產更重要。所以我今天要求你們這樣，你剛剛說可以嘛！如果可以，以後我們就照這樣來做，如果地方政府都能夠在平時把實際居住的人有多少都造冊精準，然後我們演練，配合內政部、配合所有部會演練，每次的撤離就是照這樣子精準的演練，我相信未來不會再發生這樣的事，不然地方的造冊，中央也沒有辦法去檢驗他們到底造冊準不準啊！部長，你們可以百分之百檢驗到他們造冊準不準嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不容易，因為跟委員了解的一樣，譬如說籍在人不在，或者是臨時返鄉的不特定人口，所以我們通常都是在汛期之前或颱風之前要求地方的民政單位要能夠確實掌握住在現地的人到底有多少，這樣在做疏散撤離的時候才能夠精準把握，但是這通常都是村里幹事、地方的消防、警察或者是社會處的同仁才會知道這邊到底有多少人。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，這個都是地方造冊，我當過地方的民政局長，我非常清楚，如果認真做的，就會做到百分之九十九，我們也不敢說百分之百，因為有時候可能去那邊工作的人，他昨天來，多一個人你也不知道，但我們至少能夠做到百分之九十九，但你中央可能沒有辦法拿到確實的數據，對不對？所以地方如果沒有嚴格去做到，我認為以後同樣的情況還是會發生。所以我才會說今天造成這樣子，我認為地方的造冊真的是出了很大的問題，不然也不會災區的人連便當都沒有拿到，如果你造冊精準，怎麼可能連便當都沒拿到，這是新聞播的。","所以我在這邊請所有的部會，我們未來防汛演習要把這種土石流或比較有可能發生要撤離的情形變成標準的程序、標準的作業，而且要每年來做、每年檢驗，才不會再有這種情況發生。我不知道可不可以？剛剛經濟部說可以，其他部會可不可以？"],["杜次長文珍：也是要照這樣子來做，因為其實有……"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。內政部應該也可以吧？"],["劉部長世芳：對，按照災救法，我們一定會按照這樣的方式，要求地方政府一定要能夠確實造冊配合，而且要時時更新，因為其他的縣市政府其實有人做得到，譬如說高雄市政府，他們在颱風一級警戒的時候，知道山上的狀況，馬上就做預防性的撤離。我想預防性的撤離在最近這幾年大家都常聽到，就是如果認為天災可能造成的危害比較大，預防性撤離就有必要，而不是等到真正颱風警報的時候才做撤離，這會有撤離上面的困擾。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我覺得還是一句話，平時有做，然後各部會，如果地方在防汛演習時沒有照規定來、沒有嚴格的做，你們有補助等等很多東西在你們手上，如果不配合，那就是要檢討，每年防汛演習最後的檢討不是檢討假的，我覺得要這樣子才可以救很多人。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}